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大家好。
Hello, everybody.
欢迎收听《十分之一快乐》播客。
Welcome to the 10% happier podcast.
我是你们的主持人丹·哈里斯。
I'm your host, Dan Harris.
本周我们推出一个特别系列，叫作‘理智健身’。
This week, we're doing a special series called get fit sanely.
这个系列我们会不定期做一次。
We run this series every once in a while.
它的目的是探讨身体健康，不只是心理健康，但我们看待健身的方式，是通过人类心理学、正念和自我慈悲的角度。
The whole purpose of it is to talk about physical wellness, not just mental wellness, but we approach physical fitness through the lens of human psychology and mindfulness and self compassion.
我们的小标语是：如何照顾好身体，又不搞垮自己的心态。
Our little tagline is how to take care of your body without losing your mind.
本系列由我们的合作伙伴BiOptimizers赞助。
This series is sponsored by our friends over at BiOptimizers.
这是一家生产名为‘镁突破’产品的公司。
That's a company that makes a product called Magnesium Breakthrough.
他们认为，‘镁突破’能改善睡眠、让白天更平静、提升精力。
Their argument is that Magnesium Breakthrough delivers better sleep, calmer days, and more energy.
非常感谢 BiOptimizers 团队的支持。
So big thanks to the folks over at BiOptimizers.
随着节目继续，你们还会听到更多关于‘镁突破’的信息。
You'll be hearing a little bit more about Magnesium Breakthrough as the show progresses.
不过，先让我介绍一下今天的嘉宾。
But let me get to my guests today.
今天我们聊的话题非常有意思。
We're talking about something really interesting.
当你思考如何把生活过得更好时，我觉得很多人都忽略了肌肉这个关键因素。
When you think about doing life better, one of the levers that I think many of us overlook is our muscles.
今天的嘉宾认为，肌肉，特别是骨骼肌，才是长寿的关键器官。
My guest today argues that muscles, specifically skeletal muscle, is the organ of longevity.
她认为，这是一个非常有力的切入点，不仅能提升我们的身体素质，还能改善心理健康。
It's a powerful lever, she argues, that we can pull not only to increase our physical fitness, but also our mental fitness.
她的观点在主流科学界其实有大量支持。
She has mainstream science largely on her side.
争议点在于，她在蛋白质和饮食问题上把这一观点推得有多远。
Where things get a little bit controversial is how far she pushes that argument specifically when it comes to protein and the diet.
所以我会跟她在这方面多探讨一下。
So you'll hear me push her a little bit on that.
今天的嘉宾是加布里埃尔·莱昂博士，她是一名医生，也是她所称的‘以肌肉为中心医学’的创始人。
Anyway, the guest is doctor Gabrielle Lyon, who is a physician and the founder of what she calls Muscle-Centric Medicine.
她是《永远强健》这本书的纽约时报畅销书作者，最近又推出了新书《永远强健实践指南》。
She's a New York Times bestselling author of a book called Forever Strong, and she's got a new book called The Forever Strong Playbook.
我们马上进入与加布里埃尔·莱昂博士的对话。
We'll get started with doctor Gabrielle Lyon right after this.
在听赞助商广告之前，先记下日程。
Before we hear from our sponsors today, mark your calendars.
我们的夏季周日直播系列将在几周后上线，从7月12日开始，每周日傍晚4点播出，持续八周。
Our summer Sunday live series premieres in just a few weeks every Sunday for eight weeks starting on July 12 at 4PM eastern.
你可以加入我们，和著名的冥想导师莎朗·萨尔茨堡一起参与现场冥想和问答环节。
You can join us for a live meditation and q and a hosted by the legendary meditation teacher, Sharon Salzberg.
这个活动只在我的新冥想应用‘10% with Dan Harris’上进行。
This is happening only over on my new ish meditation app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris.
每周日，莎朗都会深入解读佛教基础教义之一——八正道中的一个部分。
Every Sunday, Sharon's gonna break down one part of a foundational Buddhist list called the Noble Eightfold Path.
你可以把八正道看作是佛陀为人类幸福开出的食谱。
You can think of the Eightfold Path as the Buddha's cookbook for human happiness.
如果你错过了直播，我们会在应用里提供回放，但亲自参加直播肯定会更有趣。
We will drop replays in the app if you missed the live sessions, but it should be pretty fun to go to the live sessions themselves.
莎朗会带领冥想，讲解八正道中的一个要点，然后回答大家的问题。
Sharon will guide a meditation, talk a little bit about one aspect of the Eightfold Path, and then take your questions.
这是你向一位真正的佛教大师学习并直接交流的难得机会。
This is your chance to both learn from and be in conversation with a true Buddhist master.
人们总问我怎么开始学佛，以前我真说不出个好答案。
People always ask me how to get started in Buddhism, and I haven't had a great answer.
现在有了。
Now I do.
跟着莎朗一起参加这个课程吧。
Take this course with Sharon.
就像我说的，课程从7月12日起连续八周在App里直播，但之后你随时都可以回看。
Like I say, it'll be live in the app for eight weeks starting on July 12, but you'll be able to take it anytime you want thereafter.
现在就去danharris.com注册10% with Dan Harris应用，免费试用一下，我们期待你加入进来。
You can go to danharris.com and sign up for the 10% with Dan Harris app right now to start your free trial, and we hope you will join the party.
我们在App里做的这些事特别棒，真心希望你能成为其中一员。
We love what we're doing over in the app, and we'd love to have you as part of it.
稍后我们马上回来，先插播一段广告。
We'll be right back after this quick break.
如果你总觉得消化不好，又说不清是不是跟饮食有关，今天我们的赞助商Optimizers说，镁元素对正常消化功能很重要，如果长期摄入不足，确实会让消化变慢。
If your digestion feels sluggish or off and you can't connect it to anything you're eating, Our sponsor today by Optimizers, they say magnesium plays a role in normal digestive function and that when people don't get enough consistently, that can slow things down a bit.
他们的日常配方叫Magnesium Breakthrough，据说能温和地帮助消化顺畅，而且每笔订单都提供365天无条件退款保证。
Their daily formula, Magnesium Breakthrough, they say it offers gentle support to help keep things moving comfortably, and every order is backed by a three hundred and sixty five day money back guarantee.
和往常一样，先咨询一下你的医生。
As always, check with your doctor first.
关于这个，我们稍后再聊。
想了解更多，可以去bioptimizers.com/happier，结账时输入代码happier，立享15%折扣，还送免费礼品。
To learn more though, you can head to bioptimizers.com/happier and use the code happier for 15% off plus free gifts at checkout.
今天，我跟加布里埃尔·莱昂医生聊聊肌肉。
Today, I'm talking to doctor Gabrielle Lyon about muscle.
没人告诉你的是，你在健身房练出来的成果，其实是在睡觉时才真正长成肌肉的，这正好引出我们今天的赞助商——Eight Sleep。
The part nobody tells you about muscle is that the work you put in at the gym gets built into muscle while you sleep, which is the perfect segue to our sponsor today, Eight Sleep.
他们推出一款叫Pod的产品，是一款智能床垫罩，能自动调节床面温度，帮你让身体在夜间更好地恢复。
They make a product called the pod, which is a smart mattress cover that cools your bed automatically so your body can actually do its recovery job overnight.
我和我家人都在用这个产品。
My family and I use this product.
想了解的话，去 8sleep.com/danharris，使用代码 Dan Harris，最高可省 350 美元。
If you wanna check it out, use the code Dan Harris at 8sleep.com/danharris for up to $350 off of the Pod five.
医生。
Doctor.
加布里埃尔·莱昂，欢迎来到节目。
Gabrielle Lyon, welcome to the show.
很高兴能来。
Great to be here.
咱们先从几个基础问题开始。
Basic questions to start.
第一个问题是，什么是以肌肉为中心的医学？
The first is, what is muscle centric medicine?
以肌肉为中心的医学，就是认为肌肉是人体最大的器官系统，也是健康和长寿的关键所在。
Muscle centric medicine is the concept that muscle is the largest organ system in the body, and it is our focal point for health and wellness.
几乎所有与慢性衰老相关的疾病，尤其是那些代谢类的，都只有一个器官系统是我们能完全自主控制的。
All of the diseases of chronic aging, the majority of them that are metabolic in nature, there's only one organ system that we have full voluntary control over.
而这个朋友，就是肌肉，确切地说是骨骼肌。
And that my friend is muscle, and it's skeletal muscle.
如果你把肌肉称为长寿之器官，那心脏该怎么看呢？
If you're talking about muscle as, and I believe you call it the organ of longevity, how would I think then about the heart?
心脏是另一回事？属于整体的一部分？更重要还是没那么重要？
Is that a separate thing, part of the picture, more important, less important?
作为肌肉中心医学的创始人，我认为心脏相对没那么关键。
The founder of Muscle- Centric Medicine, I would argue that the heart is less important.
人体有三种肌肉。
There are three types of muscles.
一种是骨骼肌，我们能主动控制，比如二头肌、股四头肌，所有你能有意识动起来的部位，都属于骨骼肌。
There's skeletal muscle, which we have voluntary control over, things like biceps, our quads, anything that you can think about doing that you can control, this is skeletal muscle.
还有一种是心肌。
And then there's the cardiac muscle.
那就是心脏；另外还有平滑肌，比如血管里的肌肉，或者女性的子宫，这些也都是肌肉，但不受我们意识控制。
That's obviously the heart and then smooth muscle, the muscle within the vascular system, or say for a woman, the uterus, all muscles that are muscles, but they're not under voluntary control.
当你考虑肌肉中心医学时，得先弄清楚为什么肌肉这么重要。
When you think about muscle centric medicine, you have to frame up why muscle is important.
丹，你可能会想到运动和运动表现，但那只是骨骼肌关键作用中的一小部分，甚至可能是最不重要的一个方面。
Dan, you might think about athletics, you know, and sport performance, but that's just one small aspect of why skeletal muscle is so critical and arguably probably one of the least important.
骨骼肌负责处理和消耗碳水化合物。
Skeletal muscle is responsible for carbohydrate utilization and disposal.
它能燃烧脂肪酸。
It burns fatty acids.
大家都听说过胆固醇。
You've all heard about cholesterol.
它在休息时也在燃烧脂肪酸。
It burns fatty acids at rest.
当你收缩骨骼肌时，它会影响你的大脑。
When you contract skeletal muscle, it affects your brain.
它会影响你的情绪。
It affects your mood.
身体各器官之间存在着相互沟通。
There's this inter organ crosstalk.
坦白说，对于肌肉这个器官系统来说，对你们的听众而言，最重要的一点就是选择权。
And quite frankly, the most important aspect about muscle as an organ system, especially for your audience, is all about choice.
这完全取决于你的主动选择。
It is a voluntary choice.
也就是说，这是你可以主动去关注和投入的事情。
Meaning it's a it's something you can choose to work on.
你可以选择去锻炼它。
You can choose to work on it.
你可以选择去增强它。
You can choose to build it.
你可以选择为它提供营养。
You can choose to fuel it.
这始终是一个选择。
It is a choice.
生活中有太多事情是我们无法掌控的，但保持肌肉健康绝对不在其中。
There's so many things that we have no control over in life, but certainly taking care of muscle health is arguably not one of the things.
我们完全有能力掌控这一点。
We absolutely have full agency over that.
而且，其带来的后续影响非常明确：你越强壮，生存能力就越强。
And then the downstream effects are very clear that the stronger you are, the greater your survivability.
你越强壮，几乎在任何疾病面前的生存几率就越高。
The stronger you are, the greater, I would say, your survivability in nearly any kind of illness.
任何疾病。
Any kind of illness.
而且，我觉得你还会说，肌肉的重要性不仅体现在生病时的生存能力上——毕竟生病是难免的，更在于它能提升我们日常生活的韧性与幸福感。
But also, think you would argue, and I think you do argue, that muscle is important not just for survivability when we're sick, which is, you know, inevitable, but also for, you know, just basic resilience and happiness as we're moving through the world.
我完全同意你的看法。
I would fully agree with you on that.
而且，我觉得你和我之间有一个特别有意思的交汇点。
And, you know, I think that we have a very interesting intersection, you and I.
你经常提到幸福和正念。
You talk a lot about happiness and mindfulness.
而骨骼肌，我觉得，是你能用来实现极致自我掌控的杠杆。
And skeletal muscle, I would say, is the lever that you can pull to have the ultimate in mind control.
我这么说是什么意思呢？
Here's what do I mean by that.
今天我有两个小孩子。
Well, today I have two little kids.
其中一个身体不太舒服。
One is not feeling well.
家里一团乱，我可能会一直想：天啊，她没事吧？
There's lots of chaos and I might perseverate on, oh my gosh, is she okay?
或者：天啊，她居然把蜡笔扔到角落，结果全粘到墙上，还弄脏了白色的沙发。
Or, oh my gosh, I can't believe she, whatever, threw her crayons in the corner and then they somehow got all over the wall and on the white sofa.
最快的办法——我们都经历过——对那些还没怎么练过冥想或呼吸技巧的人来说，最有效的方式就是让身体进入一个让人不舒服的姿势。
The fastest way, because we've all been there and done that, the fastest way to change your mind for us less experienced individuals who meditate or are using breathing techniques, the most effective way is to move your body into a position that creates discomfort.
可能是短跑之类的高强度运动，也可能是冷水浴这样的方式。
And it could be something like sprinting or some kind of maximum output, but it could also be something like a cold plunge.
你的身体是一种可以用来控制心态的工具。
Your body is a tool that can be used to control your mind.
但现实一点说，孩子情绪崩溃的时候，你哪有工夫去跳冷水浴或者冲刺跑步啊。
Very practically though, when your kid's freaking out, it's hard to hurl yourself into a cold plunge or, you know, do some sprinting.
那在那种紧急时刻，你该怎么用身体来平复自己的情绪呢？
So like, what do you do in acute moments with your body to regulate your mind?
这得看你说的是哪种紧急情况。
Well, it depends on what kind of acute moment that you're talking about.
当然，首先要应对眼前的事，处理当下最紧迫的需求。
Obviously you handle the situation and there's the immediate what needs to happen in that immediate moment.
但如果我们一直反复纠结，或者陷入焦虑，问题通常并不出在那一刻。
But that's not typically where the problems stem from if we're perseverating or if we're caught in say anxiety.
那种情况更像是长期积累下来的一种慢性状态。
That is what I would consider is some kind of chronic condition that happens over time.
当时你就先处理当下，对吧？
In the moment, you handle the moment, right?
但事后，比如说你刚经历了一场艰难的对话，或者听到了一条让你整个人都炸了的消息，这时候你就得动起来。
But right after, let's say you've had a difficult conversation or you've had, or just gotten some news that completely hijacks your central nervous system, that's when you move your body.
不管在哪、什么时候、什么场合，都可以——做几个俯卧撑，来几组深蹲，或者保持平板支撑都行。
It could be anywhere, anytime, any place, whether that's pushups, whether that's air squats, whether that's a plank hold.
你怎么动都行。
I don't care how you do it.
方法多得是，随便挑。
There are a million different ways to do it.
关键是得动起来。
It just has to be done.
一旦你意识到自己陷进去了，而且躲不掉——说实话，我自己也这么干，管它在哪儿呢。
Once you identify that you're in that moment and that there's no getting out of it, and I do this myself, frankly, it doesn't even matter where you are.
哪怕你正在飞机上也没关系。
You could be on an airplane.
只要你收紧那些肌肉，哪怕只是单独地、完全地调动全身，一紧一松，这种操作在非常受限的环境下也能做到。
If you contract those muscles, and it could be just an isolated contraction where you are fully engaging your body, you release and contract, you can release and contract in a very confined situation.
或者你在办公室里，关上门，就可以做推墙动作，或者别的任何方式。
Or if you're in an office and you close the door, then you could do push outs or whatever it is.
唯一做错的方法，其实也不是什么精确的科学，就是根本不去做。
And the only way to not do that correctly, it's not perfect science, is to not do it at all.
这种肌肉紧绷再放松的做法，听众和观众都知道，我长期受幽闭恐惧症困扰，尤其是在飞机和电梯里，有一段时间特别严重，我每次坐飞机都会带着治疗师，他教我暴露疗法，也就是有系统地面对让你害怕的事物。
This tensing of the muscles and then releasing them, I, listeners and viewers, will know that I've struggled for a long time with claustrophobia on airplanes and elevators, and there was a period of time when it was particularly bad, and I would take flights with my therapist who would teach me exposure therapy, in other words, systematically exposing yourself to the shit that scares you.
每次在飞机上我快崩溃的时候，他就会说：收紧大腿肌肉，握紧拳头，然后放松，就这样一遍一遍地做。
And when we were on planes and I was freaking out, he would say, you know, like, Tense your thigh muscle, make a fist, and then let it relax, and just do that over and over.
我发现这确实有帮助。
And I did find it helpful.
你所说的，本质上就是一种叫作渐进式肌肉放松的技术。
And what you're talking about in essence is something called progressive muscle relaxation.
你的治疗师，真的很专业。
Your therapist, they were on top of it.
听到这些真好，不知道你知不知道，我曾经接受过两年的精神科训练。
It's great to hear, you know, I don't know if you know this about me, but I trained in psychiatry for two years.
我当年在路易斯维尔大学学习。
I actually went to the University of Louisville.
我特别着迷于大脑的工作原理，但最后我转到了家庭医学。
I was very fascinated as to how the brain works and ultimately I ended up switching to family medicine.
不过我要说，我在精神科学到的关于人类心理的知识，那些洞察和领悟，是我整个医学训练中最有价值的部分。
But I will tell you that my work in psychiatry, what I learned about the human mind, some of the things that I learned and got insight into have been the most valuable in all of my medical training.
而说到肌肉，这正是关键所在。
Ultimately that's where muscle comes in.
现在，人们把身心看成两个完全独立的东西。
Right now there's these two separate entities.
大家觉得心理是一回事，控制心理靠的是冥想和正念。
People think about the mind as one and the way in which you control the mind is through meditation and mindfulness.
对。
Yes.
而你刚才提到的，就是那种压力反应。
And then there are moments in time what you alluded to is this stress response.
其实有三种主要的压力反应。
You know, there are three stress responses, three predominant stress responses.
很多人以为只有‘战斗或逃跑’这一种压力反应。
People think that fight or flight is the only stress response.
说实话，丹，你可能不知道，这只是一种压力反应。
In fact, I don't know, Dan, if you're aware, but that's only one stress response.
我下面要说点别的。
I'm going somewhere with this.
但这只是其中一种压力反应。
But that's just one stress response.
我觉得人类最常动用的，就是这一种，最常动用。
It's the one that I would argue that humans move to the most frequently, most frequently.
还有一种叫‘照顾与结盟’，就是我压力大了，可能会给你打个电话。
But there is tend and befriend, which is, I'm stressed out and I might call you.
这样做其实能降低我的压力反应。
And that actually in doing so lowers my stress response.
说到以肌肉为中心的医学，第三个压力反应是勇气反应。
And then as it relates to Muscle- Centric Medicine, the third stress response is the courage response.
你经常能在特种部队人员身上看到这种反应。
And that you see a lot of operators, military operators.
我丈夫以前是特种兵，现在当了外科医生。
My husband is a former operator, now a surgeon.
所以可以说，他从一名特种兵转行成了另一名特种兵。
So I guess he went from operator to operator.
看着他，他的压力反应就是勇气反应。
And watching him, his stress response is a courage response.
意思是，一旦遇到挑衅或突发状况，他们立刻进入勇敢应对的状态。
Meaning there is an insult or something that happens and they move right to courage.
有人会说，你可以通过训练，让身心习惯性地转向勇气反应。
And one would argue that you can train your body and mind to move towards courage.
而那些微小的步骤，关键在于采取行动。
And the small little baby steps involve taking action.
我知道从一个俯卧撑跳到深蹲看起来像是巨大的飞跃，但其实没那么难。
And I know that that seems to be such a big leap from say a push up to a squat, but it's not.
这是在面对威胁时，把身体调动起来，转为积极的行动。
It's mobilizing in the face of a threat into a positive action.
所以你的意思是，如果我们根据自身能力来锻炼肌肉，当遇到侮辱、受伤或任何威胁时，就更有可能进入勇敢模式？
So are you saying that if we train our muscles to whatever our body's ability, that we're more likely when faced with an insult or an injury or some sort of threat to move into courage mode?
没错。
I am.
这是一种有意识的练习。
And it's practiced friction.
我之前在想咱们这个播客的时候，就在琢磨，丹，怎样才能最好地帮到你的听众？
Part of, as I was thinking about our podcast and I was thinking, Dan, what would serve your audience the best?
当然，肌肉训练是其中一部分，我们肯定还会聊到如何保持长寿、如何增肌这些事。
Yes, there's the musculature, and I'm sure we're gonna talk about the things to maintain longevity and how to build muscle.
但我觉得人们来找你，是因为想听你个人是怎么思考问题的，想从你这儿获得启发，学到实用的方法。
But I do think that people come to you because they want to hear how you personally process things and they want to be inspired and they want to learn tools.
而目前市面上缺少的一个关键工具，就是把身体和心理真正整合起来，理解肌肉到底起什么作用，我们该怎么用它。
And one of the missing tools out there is the integration of the body and mind in a meaningful way and what muscle actually does and how we use it.
每次我们主动面对那种不适感，比如做深蹲、俯卧撑这类让人不舒服的事，就是在迎接摩擦。
Every time we take a step towards friction, friction is something like a squat or a pushup or something that's uncomfortable.
说白了，甚至可以是抛硬币——本来计划去喝星巴克，但你跟自己约定：正面就喝，反面就不喝。
Frankly, it could be flipping a coin and not being able to get the Starbucks that you had planned because you make a promise to yourself that heads you get the Starbucks and tails that you don't.
正是在这些充满摩擦的时刻，我们选择主动接纳，而不是像现在主流说法那样，一味逃避压力、减轻压力、退后一步，只想着适应环境。其实这些挑战本身不是问题，压力也不是坏事。
It's in those moments of friction and actually inviting them in as opposed to we hear in the landscape, it's all about removing stress and mitigating stress and taking a step back and ways to work within our environment versus thinking these things aren't problems and stress isn't a bad thing.
关键在于我们怎么解读周围的环境。
It really is our interpretation of the environment.
当我们把身体当作工具来使用，就能更清晰地判断下一步该怎么做。
And then when we use our bodies as tools, then we ultimately can be discerning to make the next right step.
说到判断力，人们常问我：你认为最大的健康危机是什么？
And discernment, you know, people will say, what do you think the biggest health crisis is?
我当医生已经二十年了。
And, you know, I've been a doctor for twenty years.
你知道我觉得问题出在哪吗？
You know what I think it is?
这可能有点出人意料。
This might come as a shock.
在我看来，肥胖根本不是最大的健康危机。
And obesity is not what I think of as the biggest health crisis.
我认为，眼下我们面临的最大健康问题其实是注意力分散。
I believe that the biggest health crisis that we have that faces us right now is distraction.
让我来解释一下是怎么回事。
Here's how it plays out.
想想我们如今面对的那些慢性病——不管是肥胖、肌肉流失、心脏病还是阿尔茨海默病，没人是主动选择得这些病的。
When you think about the chronic diseases that we're really up against, whether it's obesity, sarcopenia, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, nobody chooses these diseases.
但背后有一系列生活方式的选择，我们要么做了，要么没做。
There are a whole host of lifestyle choices that we either make or we don't make.
当我们不断被下一个闪亮的东西分散注意力时，就再也无法迈出下一步了——比如坚持高蛋白饮食，认真执行训练计划，不在健身房或做任何锻炼时刷手机。
When we are continuously distracted by the next shiny object, we no longer take that next right step in front of us from eating a protein forward diet, from making sure that we execute our training plan, not be on our phone while we are in the gym or doing any of these things.
所以，我们看到的肥胖、心脏病，背后是不是其实都是长期分心累积的结果？
So ultimately, what we see as obesity, what we see as heart disease, one has to ask, is in part what we're seeing a lifetime of distraction?
我说的不是那些天生遗传问题的人，而是我们大多数人，需要不断做出选择的那群人。
And I'm not talking about the genetic, those that suffer genetically, but those that have to make repeated choices, which are most of us.
我们做的选择，是容易被干扰的决定，还是被分心左右的结果？又或者，是真正与我们的价值观保持一致的选择？
Are we making choices that are distractible choices or choices that are a result of distraction versus aligning our actions with our values?
就像你这一生所做的那样，你最终会确立那么几个核心价值，对吧？
Much like what you have done in your lifetime, you create a handful of values, right?
我知道你曾经上过新闻，以前在台上主持，后来你决定按照自己的方式来做，那正是你价值观的体现。
I know that you were in the news and you used to be on air, and now you made a decision to do that on your own terms, but that was a value.
然后，你才有了随之而来的行动。
And then there was actions that followed that.
你是医生，是专家，这方面我基本都听你的。
You're the doctor and the expert, so I defer to you on almost everything.
我在想，根据我自己的经历，我是否真的认同分心是最大的健康危机。
I'm trying to think, like, whether I agree, just based on my own experience, that distraction is the biggest health crisis.
我脑子里冒出来的想法是，如果有人问我最大的健康危机是什么，我可能会说缺乏社交联系，毕竟这是我们进化中真正需要的东西。
What's hap what's going through my mind is, I think if somebody had asked me what's the biggest health crisis, I would have said lack of social connection, which is what we evolved to need.
但我也能想象，这种社交缺失其实是分心的后果——我们被设备迷住了，以至于没法坚持那些真正能让我们保持健康的生活方式。
But I could imagine arguing that that is downstream from distraction, that we're so ensorcelled by our devices that we're, that it's creating problems in terms of us pursuing a health program that keeps us healthy.
而且它还让我们彼此疏远，而人际联结一直以来都是我们力量的源泉。
And it's keeping us from one another, which has always been our source of strength.
我完全同意。
Fully agree.
我完全赞同你的看法。
I fully agree with you.
能不能不被干扰，说到底还是在于我们的价值观是否一致。
The ability to not, again, this comes back to is, is the alignment of our values.
我写过《永恒强健行动指南》。
And I wrote the Forever Strong Playbook.
所以我写了第一本这类书，叫《永久强健》。
So I wrote the first book of its kind, which was called Forever Strong.
这本书献给了我的导师，也是《纽约时报》畅销书作者。
It was dedicated to my mentor, New York Times bestseller.
书中重点强调了肌肉的重要性。
It really highlighted muscle.
后来我心想，好吧，我已经梳理了肌肉为何重要的科学依据。
And then I thought to myself, okay, well, I've outlined the science of why muscle is important.
我也制定了营养方案。
I outlined the nutritional plan.
还设计了锻炼计划。
I outlined the exercise plan.
接下来该做什么呢？
What's next?
这就是我身后这本《永久强健行动手册》的由来。
And that's where the Forever Strong Playbook over my shoulder comes from.
在这本行动指南里，核心问题是：我们该如何设计一种生活方式，让我们能够一直保持强健？
And in that playbook, it was how do we design a life that allows for us to be forever strong?
你可以想象，紧密的人际关系也是其中的一部分。
And as you can imagine, close social connection is part of that.
我们生来就不是为了孤身一人生活的。
We were not designed to exist in isolation.
我们是社会性生物，最好的保障就是全心投入当下。
We are communal beings and our best defense is to be fully present.
最好的保障，是清楚自己的价值观，并且切实去践行它们。
Our best defense is to understand what our values are and execute on those values.
很多人制定饮食或训练计划，最后都坚持不下去。
You know, most people that go on a nutrition plan or a training plan, most people will fail at it.
你看，每到新年，健身房里人山人海。
There's, again, New Year's, everyone's in the gym.
这真让人头疼，因为我连深蹲架都占不到。
It's really annoying because I can't get my squat racked.
这其实特别容易预料。
And it's super predictable.
人类的行为太可预测了，总是重复同样的做法，一再犯同样的错。
And human beings are so predictable that they execute the same thing over and over and make the same mistakes.
结果却对自己的人性感到惊讶。
And then they are surprised by their own humanness.
我们避免这种情况的方法是，我觉得——当然，这纯粹是我的看法，没有科学依据——但我觉得每个人都希望成为最好的自己，无论是身体上、心理上，还是人际关系上。
The way that we avoid this, because ultimately what I believe, and this, this is again, just a belief, there's no science to support this, but what I believe is that everybody wants to live in the best version of themselves, physically, mentally, connection wise.
但要让这一切成为现实，必须采取一些非常实际的步骤。
But in order to make that a reality, there are very practical steps that one needs to take.
就像你提到的，多花时间跟朋友相处，建立紧密的联系。
As you suggest, spending times with friends in close connection.
我们知道，孤独确实是导致抑郁的重要原因。
We know that isolation is certainly a cause of depression.
早在2020年初我们就看到了，其实这种现象一直都有。
We saw that, you know, early twenty twenty, you know, and we've seen that for always.
还有些别的选择，人们做了之后，就走上了一条可预测的老化之路。
And there's also a handful of other decisions that people make that ultimately take them on a trajectory of aging that is somewhat predictable.
我有一大堆问题想问你，你刚才抛出了好多线索，我向听众和观众保证，这些我都会一一跟进。
I have a million questions for you, and you've dropped a lot of bread crumbs, and I wanna promise our listeners and viewers that I will follow-up on all of them.
但让我先回到你最初的说法——骨骼肌是延年益寿的关键钥匙，这应该是我们每个人都想要的吧。
But let me just go back to the beginning assertion here that skeletal muscle is the, you know, the the key unlock for longevity, which is something I I'm pretty sure we all want.
那一个心脏科医生、呼吸科医生，或者其他专攻身体某部分的专家，他们会怎么反驳你这个观点呢？
What would a cardiologist or a pulmonologist or any other ist who has their own area of the body that they focus on, what would a smart person say to push back on you on your claim?
肌肉中心医学最有趣的地方在于，我认为他们根本不会反驳。
What is so fascinating about Muscle- Centric Medicine is that I would argue that they wouldn't.
因为如果追求的是根源性治疗，比如说有人想降低甘油三酯——就是血液里多余的脂肪。
Because if the idea is root cause medicine, say for example, if someone wants to address elevated triglycerides, let's just pull fats in the bloodstream, triglycerides.
大家应该都听过代谢综合征。
We've all heard of metabolic syndrome.
如果你的听众或观众还不清楚，我可以这样解释：甘油三酯偏高、血压升高、血糖升高、胰岛素水平也高。
And if your listeners have not, or your viewers, I would outline it as the following: elevated levels of triglycerides, elevated blood pressure, elevated blood glucose, elevated insulin.
人们会说，代谢综合征是心血管疾病的一个风险因素。
People will say metabolic syndrome is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease.
对。
Okay.
所以我们从医生的角度来仔细想想，这些说法其实都成立。
So we're going to think through this as an IST, all of which can be true.
当我们聚焦在甘油三酯水平升高这个问题时。
And when we hone in on elevated levels of triglycerides.
要想活得健康，我们必须意识到新陈代谢至关重要，而新陈代谢的影响体现在具体的结果上。
If we want to have a life that is healthy, we have to recognize that our metabolism matters and the way in which our metabolism matters comes in the form of outcomes.
这些结果就是那些明确的健康指标，比如血糖、胰岛素、甘油三酯和血压。
Outcomes being the hard endpoints like blood sugar, insulin, triglycerides, blood pressure.
当你去看医生，发现甘油三酯、血糖，甚至血压都偏高时，医生本该问你一句：为什么这些数值会变成这样？
Now, when you go to your doctor and these are elevated, elevated triglycerides, elevated glucose, potentially elevated blood pressure, the doctor should be asking you a question, why are these numbers like that?
通常来说，撇开遗传因素不谈，原因就在于你的饮食和肌肉活动水平不匹配，身体没跟上。
Typically, again, taking genetics out of it, one would say that your diet, your dietary consumption is mismatched for your muscle activity and health.
我们知道，当我们减少碳水化合物摄入时——我说的碳水化合物，指的是面包、意大利面、精制白食和各种糖类。
What we know is that when we reduce carbohydrates, the average in carbohydrates, when I say carbohydrates, I'm talking about breads and pastas and all the whites and the sugars.
普通人每天平均摄入300克。
The average consumption is 300 grams a day.
换算一下，这相当于做了三次口服葡萄糖耐量测试的量。
To put that into context, it's three oral glucose tolerance tests.
这碳水摄入量实在太多了。
That's a lot of carbs.
这根本就是一种除草剂。
It's a herbicide.
我们自己正在被碳水害死。
We're killing ourselves with carbs.
确实如此。
We are.
但人们总会问：那你会减少碳水摄入吗？
But people would ask, okay, will you reduce the carbohydrates?
没错。
Yes.
你得明白，当你活动身体时，身体会用葡萄糖作为能量，同时也需要把多余的葡萄糖排掉。
And one has to understand that when you use and move your body, your body uses glucose for fuel and it also needs to dispose of it.
而排掉葡萄糖的主要地方，就是骨骼肌。
And that disposal place is skeletal muscle.
你吃进去的大部分食物，最终都是在这里被处理的。
It is the primary site for the food that you eat.
总得有个地方把它们代谢掉。
It gets disposed of somewhere.
我早年行医时就注意到了这一点。
And I saw this very early on in practice.
那时候常有五十多岁的女性来我们强健医疗诊所就诊。
I would have 50 year old women, you know, we still have a medical practice, come to Strong Medical.
我不仅听她们描述情况，还会抽血检查，发现那些身材瘦削的五十岁女性，血脂和血糖水平却都偏高。
And what I would hear and also take their blood is I would see on their blood panel, this 50 year old woman who is thin, is having elevated levels of triglycerides, elevated levels of blood sugar, blood glucose.
这不只是饮食的问题。
It's not particularly just a diet problem.
这是肌肉的问题。
It's a muscle problem.
当你像我这样坐着的时候，我们身体主要靠脂肪酸供能。
When you are sitting here like me and you, our primary fuel source is fatty acids.
就是脂肪。
It's fat.
当我们拥有健康的骨骼肌时，静息状态下身体主要燃烧脂肪。
When we have healthy skeletal muscle, at rest, we are burning primarily fat.
但当我们摄入过多碳水化合物时，这就牵扯到心脏病医生了。
Now, when we over consume carbohydrates, and this is getting to the isth, the cardiologist.
说到碳水化合物，如果我们缺乏活动，肌肉就像和牛牛排那样布满脂肪，或者像肋眼牛排一样，那显然就偏离了我们期待的里脊肉状态。
When it comes to carbohydrates, when we are non active or our muscle looks like a Wagyu steak with fat infiltrated into it, or a rib eye, then clearly that muscle is a departure from the fillet that you hope that it is.
当脂肪渗入这些组织时，会干扰身体储存和利用葡萄糖的能力。
When fat infiltrates into this tissue, it affects your ability to store and use it.
这一点在血液里也会体现出来。
You will also see that reflected in the bloodstream.
如果一位心脏病医生说，心脏最重要，
And so if a cardiologist would say, Well, I think that a heart is the most important.
我会说，心脏确实非常重要，心血管系统也至关重要。
I would say the heart is a very important organ and the cardiovascular system is a very important organ system.
那我的下一个问题是，怎么才能让它更健康？
My next question would be, how do you get it healthier?
你可以通过什么运动来改善它的健康状况？
What activity can you take to get it healthier?
答案就是活动。
And that answer is movement.
无论是力量训练还是有氧运动，都能像整理行李箱一样，改善骨骼肌的健康。
And that movement, whether it be resistance training or cardiovascular activity, affects the health of that skeletal muscle, kind of like a suitcase.
它能把体内的燃料清空，好让你再装进更多能量。
It empties out that fuel system so that you can put more fuel back into it.
人们需要明白的是，在长寿这个领域里，我们清楚有一些关键指标必须控制好，也是我们希望达到的目标。
And this is what people have to recognize is that if someone is faced with, you know, in the landscape of longevity, we know that there are particular outcomes that we must control for, that we want.
我们希望血糖稳定。
We want good blood sugar control.
我们希望甘油三酯水平降低。
We want lower triglycerides.
我们希望血压下降。
We want lower blood pressure.
如果看看数据，差不多有74%的美国人要么超重，要么肥胖。
And in part, if we look at the data, the average American is either overweight or obese, close to seventy four percent.
这根本不是脂肪的问题。
This isn't a fat problem.
这是肌肉的问题。
It's a muscle problem.
这些问题的根源都在骨骼肌上，无论是缺乏运动，还是久坐不动，本身就已经是一种疾病状态。
These problems originate in skeletal muscle, whether it's inactivity, sedentary behavior in itself is a disease state.
你的问题提得非常到位。
And so your question is very astute.
每个专科医生都会说，自己负责的器官系统最重要。
I would say that every specialist would say that their organ system is the most important.
但从实际行动的角度来看，我们唯一能掌控的器官系统就是骨骼肌。
But from an action oriented perspective, there is only one organ system that we control, and that is skeletal muscle.
而骨骼肌是人体最大的器官系统。
And skeletal muscle is the largest organ system.
它占了我们体重的百分之四十。
It makes up 40% of our body weight.
这个部分必须保持健康。
That has to be healthy.
一旦它出了问题，你的血脂、血糖、胰岛素水平都会紊乱，这些都会引发或加剧衰老相关疾病和慢性病。
If it's unhealthy, you will see derangements in your lipid profile, derangements in your carbohydrate glucose profile, insulin profile, all of which lead to and contribute to diseases of aging and also these chronic diseases.
肌肉才是关键所在。
Muscle is the focal point.
这根本不是体脂的问题。
It's not a body fat problem.
体脂过多只是骨骼肌不健康的表现。
Body fat is symptom is a symptom of unhealthy skeletal muscle.
如果你的能量水平忽高忽低，早上还好好的，下午就垮了，或者根本没法保持稳定的状态，这可能不是意志力或时间安排的问题。
If your energy levels are all over the place, you're okay in the morning, hitting a wall by afternoon, or just unable to sustain consistent output all, it might not be about willpower or scheduling.
我们的赞助商BiOptimizers指出，在你这种情况里，镁可能是被忽视的关键因素之一。
Our sponsor BiOptimizers, they point out that magnesium could be one piece of the puzzle that is getting overlooked in your case.
他们说，镁在细胞层面参与能量生成，很多人日常摄入不足时，最常见的症状就是精力低下或波动。
They say magnesium is involved in energy production at the cellular level and that when people don't meet their daily intake, low or uneven energy is one of the things commonly reported.
他们认为，我们大多数人单靠饮食根本摄取不到足够的镁。
Most of us, they argue, are not getting enough magnesium through our diet alone.
他们推出了一款每日补充剂，叫Magnesium Breakthrough，含有七种不同形态的镁。
They've got a daily formula called Magnesium Breakthrough, which uses seven different forms of magnesium.
每一种都被设计用来支持不同的功能，比如能量生成、压力应对、睡眠质量，还有恢复能力。
Each one, they say, supporting a different function, energy production, stress response, sleep quality, and recovery.
BiOptimizers 这家公司已经深耕二十多年了，他们的配方都是由博士团队研发的。
BiOptimizers has been doing this for over two decades with PhD developed formulas.
他们不是那种跟风蹭热度的新晋品牌。
They're not a new brand chasing a random wellness trend.
如果你觉得这值得一试，先去咨询一下你的医生。
If this sounds worth exploring, please check with your doctor first.
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And if you do decide to try it, they back every order with a three hundred and sixty five day money back guarantee.
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To learn more, head to buyoptimizers.com/happier and use the code happier to get 15% off any order.
结账时还会自动赠送礼品，并叠加额外折扣。
You'll also receive free gifts and extra savings automatically applied at checkout.
我们能再回头聊聊碳水化合物和碳水杀手吗？
Can we go back to carbs and carbicide for a second?
因为这个词真的太搞笑了。
Because that's a hilarious term.
你是说，如果我们坚持锻炼，增强骨骼肌，就能多吃点碳水化合物？
Are you saying that if we are consistently exercising and honing our skeletal muscle that we can eat more carbs?
没错，您可以。
Yes, sir, you can.
这观点会让很多人不高兴，因为他们不愿意接受‘得先努力才能享受’这种说法。
And this becomes very offensive to people because they don't like the idea that one would have to earn it.
这个话题挺敏感的，毕竟现在食物太容易得到了。
And it's a tricky subject because food is so readily available.
过去可没像现在这样随时随地都有吃的。
It's not like it's always been readily available like this.
我们其实有很大的自主权。
And we have a lot of agency.
我们可以自由选择调整哪些习惯。
We have a lot of choice as to what we can adjust.
但这些选择我们得负责任地做。
And we have to do that responsibly.
最重要的宏量营养素是膳食蛋白质。
The most important macronutrient is dietary protein.
随着年龄增长，我们需要摄入更多。
As we get older, we need more of it.
人体每年会完成四次自我重建和修复。
The body rebuilds and repairs itself four times a year.
我建议每天至少摄入100克蛋白质。
That number, I recommend no less than a 100 grams of protein a day.
不管体重多少，这个量都不能少。
No less than that, regardless of your weight.
至于碳水和脂肪，你可以自己选择。
And then you can choose carbs versus fat.
这完全看个人喜好。
It is personal preference.
当然，纤维摄入量得达标。不过我们现在的饮食方式，还有《行动计划》里的建议，我可能会提供一个很清晰的图示，因为过去几年里，这套方法对很多人来说太复杂、太难坚持了。
Obviously you want to hit your fiber intake, But how we are consuming right now, and in the Playbook, I may get a very pretty visual, because it's been complicated for people and it's been very difficult for people to follow over years.
餐盘的三分之一应该是蛋白质。
One third of your plate should be protein.
另外三分之一应该是富含纤维的碳水化合物、水果和蔬菜。
One third of your plate should be fibrous carbs, fruits, and vegetables.
剩下的三分之一可以是淀粉类碳水化合物。
And one third of your plate can be more starchy carbs.
如果你在训练，可以适当增加这部分的量。
You can increase that amount if you are training.
碳水化合物得靠努力才能吃，因为摄入过多会有毒性。
Carbs must be earned because at higher levels, it's toxic.
这方面的证据是有的。
And we have evidence for that.
这叫糖尿病。
It's called diabetes.
我们来聊聊你的饮食建议吧，它们确实非常有趣，但也相当严格和具体。
Let's talk about your recommendations for eating, because they're really, really interesting, but also pretty hardcore and specific.
正如你刚才说的，你特别重视蛋白质的摄入。
As you just said, you know, you have you have a big focus on protein.
我记得你说过，每餐都应该摄入30克蛋白质。
I believe you say every meal should have 30 grams of protein.
我个人深受一种叫‘直觉饮食’理念的影响，简单说就是，我们太容易被所谓的‘饮食文化’绑架了，总想着按别人的规则吃，只为达到一些随意的审美标准。
I have been very influenced personally by something called intuitive eating, and basically intuitive eating is the argument that we get really tangled up in what's been called diet culture, you know, just trying to eat by other people's rules in order to achieve arbitrary aesthetic standards.
而在直觉饮食里，关键是听从自己的身体，知道什么时候该吃、吃什么，但这一点很重要——得建立在温和的营养基础知识之上。
And so in intuitive eating, the thing is, you know, listen to your own body about when you should eat and what you should eat with, and this is crucial, a background of like gentle nutrition basics.
说了这么多，每当我遇到特别死板的饮食建议，心里就会有点抵触，毕竟我已经被直觉饮食的理念浸透太深了。
So having said all of that, when I encounter very strict guidelines, I sometimes, my back gets up just a little bit because I have been so steeped in this intuitive eating thing.
那我到底哪里错了？
So where am I wrong?
你以前从来没为体重发过愁吧？
You've never had a weight problem, have you?
我常开玩笑说，要想找回我三十岁时的腹肌，得动用考古队才行。
As I sometimes joke, it would take an archeological dig to get the abs that I had in my thirties.
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我有时候会对着镜子挑剔自己的样子，陷入自我批评。
And, and so I can get into a whole self critical thing about the way I look in the mirror, etcetera.
不过这话说起来就长了。
But that's a long answer.
简单来说，没有，我从未在医学意义上超重过。
The short answer is no, I have not had a weight problem where I'm overweight medically.
在你看来，这说明你的饮食管理得不错，身体的信号也很清晰。
Which in my mind would mean that you've done pretty well with your nutrition and that your signals aren't super crossed.
这是我想说的第一点。
That's one thing that I would say.
接下来我想问的是，你会记账、报税吗？
The next thing that I would say is, do you track an account for your money and your taxes?
你是不是也觉得，越具体，就越能掌控结果，不管是什么样的结果？
Would you also say that it's fair that the more particular one can be, the better that they can control an outcome, whatever that is?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
我知道你不推荐计算卡路里，这一点我完全同意。
But, and I know you don't recommend calorie counting, which- No.
我真的很欣赏你这一点。
Which I really love you for.
但当我过分纠结于卡路里计算的时候，结果反而适得其反，让我更不健康了——吃饭时总在分心，没法专心享受食物，也影响了和别人相处的氛围，等等。
But when I was overly fussy and obsessed with things like calorie counting, I think it was actually boomeranging back, and making me less healthy, because I, it was, it was causing distraction at mealtime, which was interrupting my ability to connect with people, connect with the food, etcetera, etcetera.
所以我特别担心一种叫‘正向饮食障碍’的现象，就是对‘健康’的执念反而成了病。
So I worry a lot about what is sometimes called orthorexia, the unhealthy obsession with getting healthy.
这确实是个真实的问题，而且我真希望这问题能更受重视。
That is a real problem, and I wish it was more of a problem.
咱们再看看数据吧。
Because again, let's look at the data.
数据显示，绝大多数同代人不是超重就是肥胖。
The data is that the majority of our contemporaries are either overweight or obese.
大多数人，尤其是我们圈外或者健康圈里的人，其实过得很辛苦。
The majority of people, maybe outside of our circle or in the wellness space, really struggle.
他们不是只苦几年，而是整整一辈子都在挣扎。
And they don't just struggle for a few years, they struggle for an entire lifetime.
几十年如一日地熬着。
They struggle for decades.
我觉得，如果把‘直觉饮食’定义为吃身体真正需要的东西，那它就是直觉饮食。
I would also say that intuitive eating, if we define intuitive, in my mind, it's eating what you feel your body needs.
如果我们达成共识，这个定义你觉得合适吗？
Would we agree on that definition if we were to kind of come together?
差不多吧。
It's close enough.
行。
Okay.
只要你理解了基本的原则，直觉饮食就完全说得通了。
What I would say is if you understand foundational principles, then intuitive eating would make perfect sense.
意思是你的身体需要一定量的蛋白质。
Meaning your body needs a certain amount of protein.
你的身体会表现得很好。
Your body does really well.
其实人们吃饭的方式千差万别，看看世界各地不同文化的人，他们吃的东西各不相同，但都挺健康的。
Again, there are so many different ways for people to eat And that's evidenced by, think about people in all different cultures, they eat a variety of things and are healthy.
但如果你明白身体需要这些氨基酸和蛋白质，你就更有可能听懂身体真正想要什么。
But if you have a understanding, there's an understanding that your body requires these amino acids, protein, then it might just be that you are connected to what it is that your body is driving for.
身体其实非常聪明。
The body is very smart.
这其实有个说法，叫蛋白质杠杆假说。
It's actually something called the protein leverage hypothesis.
蛋白质杠杆假说的意思是，我们身体确实需要氨基酸，这一点没错。
And the protein leverage hypothesis is the following, is that we have an essential need for amino acids, which we do.
身体会一直吃，直到摄入的量刚好满足需求。
And the body will feed until it gets that dosing right.
也就是说，这也是为什么很多人认为肥胖问题出现的原因——食物中的热量被严重稀释了。
Meaning, and this is one of the reasons why people believe obesity happened is that there's been such a dilution of the quality of the calories.
所以本质上，人们是在无意识地吃东西，只为获取足够的氨基酸和蛋白质。
So in essence, they're intuitively eating and feeding to get those amino acids and those proteins.
理想情况下，我们应该帮助人们达到一种状态：他们能凭直觉吃饭，清楚自己大概需要多少蛋白质。
And ideally we get people to a place where they can intuitively eat, that they understand that this is roughly the amount of protein that I need.
清楚自己大概需要多少水果和蔬菜。
This is roughly the amount of fruits and vegetables that I need.
如果我们能帮人们达到这种状态，就不必死板地控制饮食，本来也不该那样。
And if we can get people there, then it doesn't have to be strict and rigid because it shouldn't be.
我们还得意识到，如今获取食物的方式和过去相比已经发生了巨大变化。
And we also have to recognize that there's a huge departure from the way in which we used to get food.
所以我们必须建立一个基本的认知。
And so we have to have a baseline understanding.
否则，人到四十岁，如果还随心所欲地吃，体重就会明显增加，但这些完全是可以避免的。
Otherwise, bodies, when they hit 40, if you do whatever you want, see a drastic change in weight gain, middle weight gain, and none of that has to happen.
我同意你的看法，吃饭不该这么苛刻。
And I agree with you, eating shouldn't be super restrictive.
这正是饮食文化的问题所在，我们一直被误导得太深了。
And this is part of the problem of diet culture because we've really been so misled.
曾经有过所谓的‘幸运饮食法’，其实就是靠吸烟来抑制食欲。
There's been the Lucky Diet, which is smoking diet.
还有芬氟拉明这种药。
There's been Fen Phen.
葡萄柚饮食、清汤饮食，各种各样的节食方法。
There's been the Grapefruit Diet and the Soup Diet.
这些方法都试图控制饥饿感和体重。
All of these various diets to control hunger and satiety and weight.
但如果我们把重点放在能吃些什么、能获得什么，比如增加肌肉，选择就会变得自由得多。
But if we frame our eating as to what we can eat and frankly what we have to gain, like muscle, then the choices become much more liberating.
我们要摆脱的是饮食文化，关键不在于减脂，而在于建立以增肌为导向的健康观。
Diet culture is what we have to lose and the focus on fat versus a muscle centric culture is what do we have to gain?
我们到底能吃些什么？
What can we eat?
而且，这样真的自由多了。
And again, it's just much more liberating.
让我试着总结一下你的观点。
Let me see if I can sum up your argument.
我觉得你的意思是，丹，对于那些关注健康的人来说，你说得没错。
I think what you're saying is, yeah, Dan, you're not wrong for those of us who are interested in wellness.
像直觉饮食这样的方式，可以很好地纠正过度追求健康饮食的倾向。
Something like intuitive eating can be a nice corrective against orthorexia.
但我是说，医生。
But I, Doctor.
莱昂，他关注的是整个人类群体，特别是在美国，也包括全球范围内，很多人对健康根本不够重视。
Lyon, who is looking out at the sort of broad swath of humanity, specifically in America, but globally as well, where people aren't focused enough on wellness.
所以他们需要明确具体的指导，直到能够达到自主判断的水平。
So they need pretty specific guidelines until they can achieve escape velocity and rely on their intuition.
说得完全对。
That's absolutely correct.
因为归根结底，我们希望培养出更强大、更健康、更有韧性的个体。
Because ultimately, we want to build stronger, healthier, more resilient humans.
这正是我们想要的。
This is what we want.
这正是我们的目标。
This is what we're going for.
但我们必须承认，有些根本性的改变是必须做的。
But we have to agree that there are some fundamental changes that have to be made.
现实是，大多数人连最基础的活动量都没达到，也就是每周一百五十分钟。
And the reality is most people are not even hitting the bare minimum of activity, which is one hundred and fifty minutes.
美国运动医学会的指南刚更新了，现在要求的是每周一百五十分钟中等至剧烈强度的运动。
The ACSM guidelines just changed, but it's one one hundred and fifty minutes of moderate to vigorous activity.
此外，每周还要进行两天的力量训练。
And it's two days a week of some kind of resistance training.
我的朋友，大多数人根本达不到这个标准。
My friend, most people are not meeting that.
这一点我们心知肚明。
And we know this.
那我们该怎么改变这种文化呢？你看过电影《瓦力》吗？
And how do we transform the culture, which is, have you ever seen the movie Wall E?
当然看过，特别喜欢。
Oh yeah, love it.
但那场景真的让人毛骨悚然。
But it's terrifying.
我们正朝着那个方向走。
And that's where we're going.
如果我们不做出重大调整，迟早会变成那样。
That's where we're going if we don't make some serious course corrections.
我们必须承认，我们生活在一个高度驯化了的环境里。
And we have to acknowledge that we live in a domesticated environment.
我们根本不知道该怎么吃。
We don't know how to eat.
我们早就脱离了亲自外出打猎、采摘浆果这些事，现在只要动动手指在亚马逊或者达达上点一下，食物就送上门了。
We are so far removed from having to go out and hunt our food and go out and pick our berries and do all of these things that really we just go on Amazon or DoorDash and it's there.
我们必须适应现在的环境。
We have to adapt to our environment.
如果适应意味着我们需要增加蛋白质摄入量，搞清楚这到底意味着什么，然后自己做选择，我完全支持。
And if that adaptation means we have to double down on the amount of protein that we need and understand what that looks like, and then we choose, I'm totally good with that.
但我认为，我们有责任真正弄清楚自己需要什么，以及为什么需要。
But I believe it's our responsibility to really understand what we need and why we need it.
然后让每个人自己做决定。
And then let people choose.
但如果我们不承认蛋白质是最重要的宏量营养素，而且随着年龄增长我们需要更多，那就别无他法了。
But if we don't acknowledge that protein is the most important macronutrient, that we need more of it as we age, there is no other way.
光靠想，是没法把身体练出来的。
You can't just build your body from thinking about it.
你得吃东西，还得吃特定类别的食物，也就是那些必需的宏量营养素。
You have to consume food and you have to consume particular classes of food, meaning the particular macronutrients, because they're essential.
我们的身体自己没法合成这些营养。
Our bodies can't make it.
而衰老是现实，你知道的，有生物年龄，也有实际年龄，它就在那儿发生。
And then aging, which is the reality as, you know, there's biological age and there's chronological age, it's happening.
年轻的时候，我们靠激素和生长驱动，一切都顺其自然。
When we are young, we are driven by hormones and growth.
那时候，很多事都能凑合过去。
We can get away with a lot.
但随着激素变化、活动量减少，身体效率下降，我们就得正视这些损耗。
But as our hormones change and as our activity levels change and as our body becomes less efficient, we have to account for those inefficiencies.
这绝对是必须的。
It's just, it's a must.
不然，我们会发现自己变得比想象中更虚弱。
Otherwise, we're going to find ourselves weaker than we care to be.
但不幸的是，如果我们不为肌肉健康打好基础——这跟外表一点关系都没有——那么将来想控制那些真正重要的健康指标，比如血压、甘油三酯水平、认知衰退或心血管疾病，就会变得非常困难。
And unfortunately, if we don't set ourselves up for muscular health, again, has nothing to do with aesthetics, then it becomes very challenging to manage the health outcomes that become meaningful, like blood pressure, like triglyceride levels, like cognitive impairment or cardiovascular disease.
我真不希望人们因为对各种饮食法感到厌倦而走向另一个极端。归根结底，他们还是得做出那些根本性的选择，别被下一个所谓的‘神器’牵着鼻子走，也别因为从小耳濡目染的饮食文化而彻底放弃。
And I would just hate for people to overcorrect in a way that they're so fed up with this diet and that diet, Because at the end of the day, they still need to make fundamental choices and not be distracted by the next shiny object or be so off put by the diet culture that unfortunately we have all grown up in.
所以，作为一位接受过老年医学训练的人，我想说的是这一点。
And so that's that's what I would say to that, you know, as someone who trained in geriatrics.
明白了。
Okay.
我们已经聊了饮食，想深入了解的人可以去读你的书，《终身强健指南》。
So we've covered diet, and people who wanna go deeper can and should check out your book, The Forever Strong Playbook.
在继续之前，先插播一条来自Eight Sleep的广告。
Quick word from Eight Sleep before we keep going here.
医生莱昂提到，对肌肉来说，恢复特别重要。
One thing doctor Lyon mentions, as being super important for muscles is recovery.
你可以拼命训练。
You can train hard.
你完全可以吃够所需的蛋白质。
You can eat all the protein you need.
你在健身房里该做的全都做对了。
You can do everything right in the gym.
但如果你不恢复，就不可能真正变强，而恢复的关键就在于深度睡眠。
But if you're not recovering, you're not going to truly get stronger, and the place recovery really happens is in deep sleep.
要进入深度睡眠，你的核心体温必须下降。
Your core body temperature really needs to drop in order to enter deep sleep.
这就是科学原理。
That's the science.
今天我们的赞助商Eight Sleep推出的产品叫The Pod，它是一层床罩，套在你现有的床垫上，能自动调节整晚的床面温度，左右两侧独立控温，因为你和伴侣的体温需求可能不一样。
And the pod, which is a product made by our sponsor today, Eight Sleep, The pod is a cover that goes on your existing mattress and makes your bed feel like the ideal temperature automatically all night on each side independently because your temperature needs may be different from your partner.
The Pod还能监测你的心率、心率变异性、呼吸和睡眠阶段，完全不需要佩戴任何设备。
The pod also tracks your heart rate, your HRV, breathing, sleep stages, no wearable required.
我和我家人都在用这个产品。
My family and I use this product.
第二天你一看手机，就能知道昨晚睡得怎么样，这种设计既简洁又酷，还特别有帮助，能让你更好地安排睡觉时间、改善睡眠质量等等。
The way you can look at your phone the next day and see how you slept is really elegant and cool and informative, helps you make better decisions about when you go to sleep, how you sleep, etcetera, etcetera.
Eight Sleep 表示，这个智能床罩基于超过十亿小时的睡眠数据研发而成。
Eight Sleep says the pod is built on more than a billion hours of sleep data.
该公司自己的临床研究显示，使用这款产品的人，深度睡眠时间最多可增加34%，入睡速度最快可提升44%。
The company's own clinical studies indicate that users can get up to 34% more deep sleep with the pod and up to 44% faster fall asleep time.
这里简单做个法律声明：这款产品不属于医疗设备。
Just a quick legal disclaimer here, the Pod is not a medical device.
它绝不能替代专业的医疗建议、诊断或治疗。
It should never be used as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
我家人和我真的很喜欢这个产品。
Again, my family and I really love this product.
我说的‘我们’，指的是我妻子、我和我儿子。
And when I say we, I'm talking about my wife, myself, and my son.
自从最近买回来，我们全家都在不断查看、惊叹它的表现。
We've all been checking it out and marveling at it since we got it recently.
这真的很酷。
It's quite cool.
能了解自己的睡眠状况，再让床垫根据你的需求自动调节，帮你睡得更好，这确实是一种实实在在的贴心服务。
And to get more information on how you're sleeping and then have the mattress respond to what you need so that you sleep better is a real service.
在 8sleep.com/danharris 使用代码 Dan Harris，可享受高达 350 美元的折扣。
Use the code Dan Harris at 8sleep.com/danharris for up to $350 off the Pod five.
提供三十天试用。
There's a thirty day trial.
明白了。
Okay.
咱们聊聊锻炼吧。
Let's talk training.
你之前提到过每周一百五十分钟。
You said something before about a hundred and fifty minutes a week.
我数学不太好，但我觉得这大概是每天三十分钟，每周五天。
I'm not good at math, but I think that's, like, thirty minutes, five days a week.
我完全不介意。
I have no problem with that.
我每周锻炼六到七天，每次一小时，我知道很多听众听了会觉得我特别烦人。
I exercise six to seven days a week for an hour, which I know to many people listening is gonna make me incredibly annoying.
不过，那些听了我刚才的话觉得反感、却总是没法去健身房的人，你们觉得最少要练多久才有效？到底该怎么做才对？
However, to the those people who are annoyed by what I just said and have trouble getting themselves to the gym, What's the minimum effective dose, and what should we be doing?
我觉得你不会喜欢我的答案。
I don't think you're gonna like my answer.
我猜你听了肯定不高兴，但我可不想当最不受欢迎的嘉宾。
I I I don't think you're gonna you will like it, but I I I don't wanna be your most unpopular guest.
你觉得人们为什么每天连三十分钟都抽不出来？最主要的原因是什么？
What is the number one reason why you would say people are not getting in thirty minutes a day?
最主要的原因是什么？
What's the number one reason?
没时间，或者很难养成习惯。
Lack of time slash it's hard to form habits.
我经常听到的说法就是没时间。
The lack of time is the thing that I hear.
我想提一下这一点。
I want to just bring this up.
我可不是想当你们最不受欢迎的嘉宾。
Again, I'm not trying to be your most unpopular guest ever.
如果你连每天三十分钟都抽不出来，那生病的时候你哪来的时间应对？
But if you don't have time for thirty minutes a day, how on earth are you going to have time for sickness?
你每天连三十分钟锻炼都挤不出，真觉得生病了能省下时间吗？
If you don't have time for thirty minutes a day of exercise, you think that you're going to save time when you're sick?
这一点大家必须清醒认识到：这里根本没有捷径可走。
And that is an absolute understanding that people have to recognize that there is no, there's no shortcut here.
如果你觉得没时间锻炼，那你怎么可能有时间应付生病？
If you think you don't have time for exercise, how the heck are gonna have time for being sick?
所以他们得明白这个道理。
So they have to understand that.
最低有效剂量通常就是那些ETSM指南所规定的。
The minimum effective dose is typically set as those ETSM guidelines.
这个量足以让你今天不比昨天更差。
That's the minimum to make you not worse than yesterday.
明白吗？
Okay?
我在《行动手册》里推荐的，也是我觉得特别有价值的是每周三次的力量训练。
What I cover in the Playbook and what I think is really valuable is a three day a week resistance training program.
而且，人们总会争辩说：不对，你应该做有氧运动。
And again, people will argue, no, you want to do cardiovascular activity.
我觉得散步不算锻炼。
I think that walking isn't exercise.
散步是你生活的一部分。
Walking is part of your life.
我希望你能多走路。
I want you to walk.
人类如果久坐不动，这本身就是一种疾病状态。
Human beings, if an individual is sedentary, that is a disease state in and of itself.
久坐不动就是一种疾病状态。
Being sedentary is a disease state.
所以每周训练三次力量训练，训练得越少，就越需要全身性的锻炼。
So three days a week of resistance training, and the less you train, the more full body it needs to be.
我在我手册里已经给出了一个非常直接的方案来解决这个问题。
Again, I have put a very straightforward plan in my playbook to just address this.
现在市面上有成千上万种训练计划。
Also, there's a million plans out there.
没有哪个计划是唯一正确的。
There's no one right plan.
关键是我们该怎么思考这些基础要素？
It's how do we think about the foundations?
我们知道，早上或第一餐需要摄入30到50克蛋白质。
We know that you need 30 to 50 grams of protein in the morning or at that first meal.
其次，你得活动身体。
Secondarily, you have to move your body.
你得给身体施加点挑战。
You have to challenge it.
不管你用什么方式，反正你必须去做。
I don't care how you get there, but you have to do it.
可以是哑铃训练吗？
Could it be a dumbbell program?
去附近的健身房用器械行不行？
Could you go to the local gym and use machines?
都可以。
Yes and yes.
只要你动起来，为自己的生活建立起一套运动模式就行。
As long as you are doing and creating a movement lexicon for your life.
你的钱，应该花在能让你做举过头顶、头顶伸展这类动作上。
Your money, you should be able to do overhead, overhead extension.
你应该能蹲下、活动身体，坐在地上，再从地上站起来。
You should be able to squat and move and sit on the floor and get up off the floor.
这些都是最基本的能力。
These are all basic things.
要做到这些，我建议每周进行三次左右的抗阻训练。
To do that, I would say three times a week of some type of resistance training.
当然，训练方式有很多种，成千上万种方案，但你必须有抗阻元素。
Again, there's a whole continuum, a million different programs, but you have to have resistance.
你可以从弹力带开始。
And you can start with bands.
如果你只想在家用弹力带锻炼，我也完全支持。
If you just want to do bands at home, I'm okay with it.
你得想办法逐步增加训练刺激，而不是一味增加重量。
You do have to figure out ways to create progressive stimulus, not progressive overload.
不一定要越来越重才行。
It doesn't just have to be heavier.
挑战性得不断加大。
It has to increase in the challenge.
可以多做几组，放慢节奏，或者加个动作。
Could be more reps, could be slower tempo, could be extra exercise.
渐进式刺激。
Progressive stimulus.
这个概念该怎么落实呢？
How do we operationalize that concept?
没错。
Yep.
让动作更难一点。
Make it harder.
选个你愿意接受的挑战吧。
Pick your poison, pick your challenge.
怎么练不重要，关键是得更难。
Don't care how you do it, it's gotta be harder.
如果你是个去健身房每天都做完全一样动作，或者每周只练三天的人，你知道的，丹，我敢肯定你……对了，你在哪儿啊？
If you are someone who goes into the gym and does the exact same thing every day, or three days a week, You know, Dan, I'm sure that you've Where are you located, by the way?
是机密吗？
Is it top secret?
不，不是机密。
No, it's not top secret.
我在纽约市以北大概一小时车程的地方。
I'm about an hour North of New York City.
好的，纽约市以北一小时车程的地方。
Okay, hour North of New York City.
我去过那儿。
I've been there.
那边有很多健身房吗？还是说你在纽约州北部那种地方？
Are there you have lots of gyms or are you kind of in, you know, I've been Upstate New York.
那边大概每十英里才有一个健身房，或者
They have like one gym every 10 miles or
我挺幸运的，家里就有一个健身房。
20 I'm privileged enough to have a gym in my house.
好吧，明白了。
Okay, fine.
那你可没借口了，也不会每天在跑步机上碰见同一个人——除非那个人就是你自己。
So then you have no excuse, and no, you don't go down there and see the same person on the treadmill every day, unless it's you.
但你想想，要是你去健身房，比如在纽约市，总会见到熟人，打招呼说：嘿，击个掌，最近怎么样？
But imagine when you would go to the gym and let's say you're in New York City, you see the same people, Oh, hey, high five, what's up?
可他们的身材，一年到头都没啥变化。
And their bodies, they look exactly the same.
过了一年，还是老样子。
A year goes by, they still look exactly the same.
这说明刺激不够。
Well, that's not enough stimulus.
你得不断调整训练的强度和难度，才能持续进步。
You must add a stimulus that is varying in degrees of difficulty or challenge.
顺便说一句，我们一开始聊的时候，我就很直白地讲过和牛牛排和菲力的区别，你的肌肉就该是那个样子。
And by the way, first of all, remember we opened up this conversation and I was very graphic about the difference between a Wagyu and a fillet, and that's what your muscle looks like.
只要坚持抗阻训练，就能提升肌肉质量，减少渗入肌肉组织的脂肪，不管你的体脂率有没有变化。
The simple act of doing resistance training improves muscle quality, decreases that fat that infiltrates into that tissue, regardless if your body composition changes or not.
所以我要说得特别清楚一点。
So I want to be very clear.
我不希望别人觉得：‘唉，我做的这些好像不够。’
I don't want people to feel like, okay, well, what I'm doing is not enough.
你愿意动起来，这已经很好了。
Well, I'm glad that you're doing something.
但我觉得我们得对自己要求更高一点——如果觉得每周去健身房，在跑步机上走三四次就足够了，那说实话，远远不够。
And I think that we have to hold ourselves to higher standards that if we become complacent and we just accept that going to the gym and walking on the treadmill three days a week or four days a week is enough, frankly, it's not.
二十多岁的时候或许还行，但也不一定非得加重重量。
During your twenties, it's okay, but it doesn't have to be heavier weights.
提升训练难度的方法有很多，比如放慢动作节奏、加快节奏、换动作、调整训练量。
There are a handful of ways to make things more challenging, whether that is slow down the tempo, speed up the tempo, change the exercise, change the volume.
不只是加重重量而已。
It's not just lifting heavier.
这就是渐进刺激的意思——改变刺激方式，来改变效果。
And that's what progressive stimulus is, changing the input to change the output.
每周三次力量训练，有氧运动该怎么安排？
Three days a week of resistance training, where does cardio fit into this?
是我最头疼的事？
The bane of my existence?
开玩笑的。
No, just kidding.
有氧运动其实很好。
Cardio is great.
关键是你想怎么安排？
Really the question is, how do you want to do it?
建议是每周累计一百五十分钟中等强度到高强度的活动，也就是每天三十分钟。
And the recommendation is some kind of, is thirty minutes of moderate to vigorous activity a week, or one hundred and fifty minutes of moderate to vigorous activity thirty minutes a day.
有氧运动，我之前在我的播客里聊过这个话题，还请来了全球顶尖的高强度间歇训练专家。
Cardiovascular activity, and I actually covered this on my podcast and I had one of the world leading experts on high intensity interval training.
他叫马丁·加巴拉。
And his name is Martin Gabala.
他在麦克马斯特大学工作。
He's at McMaster University.
他是这个领域真正的元老级人物。
He's like the OG in this space.
他是这么说的：
And here's what he would say.
我听到最多、大家也最常提到的理由，就是没时间。
The number one thing that I hear, and that we all hear is time.
其实，通过高强度间歇训练，你就能获得非常有效的有氧锻炼效果。
You can get a robust cardiovascular activity, cardiovascular training, when you do high intensity interval training.
事实上，有人甚至说，每天只要四分钟，看你拼到什么程度，或者每天十分钟就够了。
In fact, one could argue four minutes, four minutes a day, or four minutes, depending on your all out effort, or ten minutes a day.
强度越高，你就越不需要花太多时间——还是得看一整周的安排，但强度越大，所需时间就越少。
The more intense it is, again, you want to think about it in a week span, but the more intense it is, the less you need.
你也可以简单地散散步，就是那种边走边说话的速度，保持呼吸平稳，每天三十分钟，就很好了。
You could easily do walk, you know, walk around and talk, walk kind of quickly, keep your breath under control, do that 30 a day, great.
或者你也可以拼命一点，做高强度间歇训练。
Or you could really push yourself and do a high intensity interval training.
我喜欢每周安排两天做这个。
I like adding that in two days a week.
这还能提升你的最大摄氧量。
And that will also improve your VO2 max.
我们总在谈行动，但真正重要的是结果。
Again, we're talking about the action, but what we really want is the outcome.
我们老说蛋白质，可我根本不在乎蛋白质本身。
We talk about protein, but I don't care about protein.
我在乎的是肌肉。
I care about the muscle.
我们总在谈力量训练，但其实你怎么达成健康肌肉的目标并不重要。
We talk about resistance training, but it doesn't really matter how you get to the endpoint of healthy muscle.
关键是你得去做。
It just matters that you do it.
那说到有氧运动，你每天做二区心肺训练行不行？
And then when we think about cardiovascular activity, could you be someone who does zone two cardio every day?
当然可以。
Totally.
完全没问题。
You can.
你的最大摄氧量会提升吗？
Will you improve your VO2 max?
会的。
Yes.
你的心肺基础会变好吗？
Will you improve your cardiovascular base?
是的。
Yes.
但关键是总的运动时间，以及你的最终目标是什么。
But it's the overall time and what your end goal is.
对我来说，我并不会做太多二区心肺训练。
For me, I don't do a ton of zone two cardio.
可能一周只做一天，其他我会安排一天高强度间歇训练。
Might do one day a week, I do a high intensity interval day.
一周可能有两天做低强度运动，或者三天，具体看哪一周，你知道的，每个人的二区心肺强度都不一样。
Two days a week, I might do some kind of lower intensity, maybe three days a week, whichever week, you know, zone two is different for everybody.
但这样已经足够维持我的基本体能水平了。
But that's enough to maintain my baseline level of fitness.
人们每天都应该活动起来。
People should be moving every day.
可以从力量训练开始。
Start with resistance training.
再说一遍，这个观点是有争议的。
Again, this is controversial.
很多健身同行会说，先打有氧基础。
Many of my fellow fitness people will say start with a cardiovascular base.
但对我来说，我希望你先拥有健康的肌肉。
But for me, I want you to have healthy musculature.
然后你可能会因此受到激励，去做一些有氧运动。
And then hopefully you'll be inspired enough to do some kind of cardiovascular activity.
但要说服人们真正开始力量训练，我觉得才是最大的挑战。
But getting people over the threshold of actually doing resistance training, I think is the most challenging.
我们来聊聊恢复的问题。
Let's talk about recovery.
你说我们应该每天活动身体。
You're saying we should be moving our bodies every day.
我完全同意。
I'm totally down with that.
我今年54岁了，现在更容易受伤了。
I will tell you at age 54, I tend to get hurt more easily.
那在这一切中，恢复到底扮演什么角色？
So what's the role of recovery in all of this?
你年轻的时候有锻炼吗？
Did you train when you were younger?
你一直都是个长期坚持运动的人吗？
Were you have you been like a lifelong athlete?
说我是运动员有点夸张了，不过确实，二十多岁的时候有松懈过一阵，但从三十岁开始，过去二十五年我一直非常投入。
I mean, athlete would be a little grand to describe me, but I have yeah, I'd say maybe fell off a little bit in my twenties, but starting in my thirties all the way for the last twenty five years, very, very avid.
你二十多岁的时候，早上一醒就能直接去跑步。
And then, you know, in your twenties, you wake up and you can just go run.
根本不用去活动手腕、扭动髋关节这些。
You're not having to roll your wrist and, like, your hip.
这完全是两码事。
It's it's a whole thing.
然后突然间，我就遇到了这种情况。
And then all of a sudden, right, it happened to me.
你一觉醒来，发现自己四十岁了，得开始做全套的柔韧性训练了。
You just wake up and you're like, I'm 40 and now I got to do this whole mobility program.
年轻的时候，总觉得身体自然流畅，恢复似乎没那么重要。
When you're young, it just seems as if we have this flow, right, that recovery doesn't seem as important.
这跟运动员的水平有关，但也许确实没那么关键。
Arguably depends on the level of the athlete, but maybe it's less important.
但随着年龄增长，我们必须意识到，关节和肌腱得跟上肌肉的健康和力量。
But as we age, we have to recognize that our joints and our tendons have to keep up with our muscle health and strength.
很多时候，肌肉的发展速度超过了关节、肌腱和其他结缔组织的适应能力。
And oftentimes our muscles outpace our ability of our joints and our tendons and this other fibrous tissue to keep up.
所以当我想到恢复，我不会想到泡个暖暖的泡泡浴。
So when I think about recovery, I don't think of a warm bubble bath.
我想到的是动起来。
I think of moving.
我想的是主动恢复。
I think of active recovery.
我想的是散步。
I think of walking.
就像我们之前说的，散步其实就是让身体降个档。
As we talked about walking, recovery is simply allowing your body to downshift.
睡眠很重要。
Sleep is important.
饮食中的蛋白质也很关键，主动恢复就是让肌肉群稍微休息一下，因为肌肉不是在运动时长大的。
Dietary protein, again, active recovery is allowing your muscle groups to get a bit of rest because you don't grow in the act of doing the activity.
你举重的时候，肌肉并不会变大。
You don't grow bigger muscles while you're lifting.
肌肉是在休息的时候长大的。
You grow bigger muscles while you're resting.
这就是我对主动恢复的理解。
And that's how I think about active recovery.
我还特别喜欢用一些小工具和方法。
And then there's a handful of tools and things that I love to use.
我喜欢冷水浴。
I love a cold punch.
我喜欢泡热水桑拿。
I love a hot sauna.
我喜欢翘着脚看一部好剧。
I love a good Netflix with my feet up.
我喜欢多待在户外。
I love a lot of outside time.
我觉得我们会越来越看到，环境对我们恢复能力和中枢神经系统的影响。
I think we're going to start to see more and more the impact of our environment on our ability to recover and our central nervous system.
训练越高强度，恢复就得越彻底。
And I would say that the harder the training, the more robust the recovery.
恢复不是下面这种情形。
Recovery is not the following.
骑完单车或者做完Peloton之后，别喝那种高碳水的奶昔。
After a soul cycle or after Peloton, it is not a massive carbohydrate smoothie.
那不是恢复。
That is not recovery.
如果我们没有条件用冰浴，你觉得冲个冷水澡怎么样？
If we don't have access to a cold plunge, how does a cold shower strike you?
我觉得挺好的。
I'm good with it.
我觉得挺好的。
I'm good with it.
水可以冷一点，重点是冲后颈。
It could be cold, get it on the back of the neck.
我得说清楚，关于冰浴的研究数据是这样的。
Again, I want to be clear of the data on a cold plunge.
我为什么喜欢冰浴呢？
Why do I like a cold plunge?
能减轻炎症，让我没那么酸痛。
It reduces inflammation, helps me be less sore.
你完全可以往浴缸里放满冷水。
You could definitely fill up a bathtub in cold water.
不用特别冷。
Doesn't have to be super cold.
54华氏度就够了。
It could be 54 degrees.
那根本算不上冰得刺骨。
That's not super freezing.
不用非得降到39度。
Doesn't have to be 39.
想的话加点冰块也行。
Put some ice in it if you want.
如果你正经历更年期或围绝经期，尤其是有潮热症状，这种做法会特别舒服。
It feels really good if you are a woman in menopause or perimenopause, maybe you're having hot flashes.
这其实是个挺实用的方法。
This is something that one could utilize.
不一定非得是冰水浴。
It doesn't have to be a cold plunge.
我们大多数人家里都有浴缸。
Most of us have bathtubs.
要是没有浴缸，洗个冷水脸也行。
If you don't have a bathtub, can face plunge.
关键是你怎么用它。
The question is, how are you using it?
对我来说，我用它来锻炼心理韧性。
For me, I use it for mental resilience.
没什么比这个更能让我摆脱情绪或状态了。
Nothing gets me out of a mood or a state.
整个人泡进冷水里时，你根本想不了别的事，真的完全想不了。
You cannot think of anything else when you dunk yourself into a cold You just cannot.
就算我过得最糟的一天，只要一泡进冷水里，连现在几点都忘了。
If I'm having the worst day, the second I immerse myself in a cold blood, I don't even remember what time it is.
我根本说不出来现在是几月。
I couldn't even tell you what month it is.
水太冷了，那一刻完全打断了所有反复纠缠的念头，任何正在发生的事都被按下暂停键。
It is so cold that for that moment, it completely interrupts whatever repetitive thought, whatever is happening, there is a moment of interrupt.
你知道吗，维克多·弗兰克尔，你肯定读过《活出生命的意义》这本书。
You know, there is, Victor Frankl, I'm sure you read the book Man's Search for Meaning.
他讲过刺激和反应之间的关系。
And he talks about the stimulus and the response.
冷水澡刚好提供一个足够的刺激，让你能停一停，然后选择怎么回应。
The cold plunge creates just enough stimulus for you then to pause and choose a response.
我发现这真的没错。
And I have found that to be true.
再说一遍，问题是，冲个冷水澡行不行？
Again, question is, could a cold shower work?
是的。
Yes.
冷水浴也能有效果吗？
Could also cold bath work?
是的。
Yes.
你能不能找一个垃圾桶，装满水，再放些冰块进去？
Could you also get a trash bin and fill it up and put ice in it?
是的。
Yes.
有决心，就有办法做到。
Where there is a will, there is a way to execute.
最后我想问你一个问题，我们刚才其实是倒着聊的，因为这份指南一开始讲的是如何思考，然后再谈饮食、锻炼和恢复。
Final thing I wanna ask you about, we kind of did this and asked backwards, because the playbook starts really with how to think before moving on to eating, exercise, and recovery.
大家还是可以去查看这份指南。
People, again, should can go check out the playbook.
但关于‘如何思考’这部分，我想让你重点聊聊，它其实和冷水浴直接相关，这也是我从之前对话里捡到的一个线索——他提到过‘阻力’。
But there's one there's one aspect of the how to think part that I wanna get you to talk about, and it really does relate to the cold plunge, and it's something, this is a bread crumb I'm picking up from earlier in our discussion, where he talked about friction.
现代生活让我们生活中几乎没了阻力。
Modern life has reduced the amount of friction in our lives.
我们可以随手一划就约到对象、买到 groceries、点到餐，甚至获取整个人类的知识。
Like, we we can swipe for a date, for groceries, for food, all of human knowledge.
所以我们不用像以前那样费力去争取这些了，而你的观点是，我们恰恰需要这种阻力。
We therefore don't have to work as hard as we used to for this stuff, and your argument is that we need friction.
那你能不能详细说说这个观点？
So can you hold forth on that?
我们生活在一个不断试图消除所有困难的文化里。
We live in a culture where we're constantly trying to remove the hard thing.
但其实我们不该这样。
And we shouldn't.
我们反而会在这些困难中成长得更好。
We will thrive on it.
增加阻力的方式其实有很多。
And there's all sorts of ways to add friction.
人们一想到阻力，就只觉得是做些体力上艰难的事。
People just think of physical friction, of doing the physically hard thing.
我给你举个例子吧。
I'll give you an example of friction.
我丈夫在海军服役，现在是外科住院医师。
My husband, who is in the Navy, is now a surgical resident.
他正在接受泌尿科的培训，每天跑步上班，这可真够烦人的——他得特别早起，天气越差，他就得起得越早。
He is training to be a urologist and he runs to work every day, which is super annoying because he has to wake up very early and the worse the weather it is, the earlier it has to get up.
我跟他说：亲爱的，你能不能开车去上班啊？
And he said to me, I was like, Honey, can you please just drive to work?
外面正打雷下雨呢。
It is thunderstorming outside.
你真不能开车去吗？
Do you mind driving?
他说：如果只在方便的时候才达到自己的标准，那我算什么男人？
He says, Honey, what kind of man would I be if I only lived up to my standards when it was convenient?
我当时心想，这话说得真有道理。
And I thought to myself, that's pretty cool.
紧接着我又想：赶紧离开房间吧，现在太早了，我还得回去睡觉。
And then the second thought was, Get the heck out of the room because it's way too early and I need to go back to bed.
我这么说，只是想举个真实的例子，说明怎么人为增加阻力。
So, and I say that because it's just an example, a real life example of adding friction.
减少阻力的方法成千上万，但核心其实是设定标准。
There are a million different ways to reduce it, but it's this idea of setting standards.
我们总想着阻力是身体上的，是做那些艰难的事。
We always think about the physical nature of the friction of doing the hard things.
但艰难的事，也可能体现在情感层面。
But doing the hard thing can come in the bucket of emotional.
也可能体现在社交层面。
It can come in the bucket of social.
它也可能体现在我们自身的不适感上。
It could come in the bucket of our own personal discomfort.
摩擦可能简单到只是抛一枚硬币。
Friction could be as simple as flipping a coin.
正面就去喝杯星巴克，反面就不去。
Heads, you get that Starbucks, tails, you don't.
我这个人特别喜欢听大声的音乐，跟着摇摆，补充氨基酸，来点肌酸，给自己打打气再去健身房。
I am someone who loves to listen to loud music, rock out, have my amino acids, have some creatine, and just hype myself up for the gym.
我会抛一枚硬币。
I flip a coin.
正面就放大声的音乐，反面就不放。
Heads, I get that loud music and tails, I don't.
前五次倒霉抛到反面，没法听音乐的时候，真的挺烦的。
It's really annoying the first five times that unfortunately I have flipped the coin where I don't get to actually get the loud music.
但过一阵子，就得换种更难搞的方式了，因为这个我已经习惯了。
And then after a while, have to move on to something that is more friction generating because I've mastered that.
有时候，就是得面对那些难开口的对话。
Sometimes it's having the hard conversation.
我觉得你每天都应该选一个让你感到不适的领域，主动挑战自己。
And I do think that you should pick one domain of friction every single day and challenge yourself.
这真的特别让人不舒服。
It's really uncomfortable.
比如说吧，我特别讨厌社交媒体。
For example, give, you know, I hate social media.
我从不强迫自己去刷社交媒体。
I don't want to force myself to go on social media.
这其实是一种小小的阻力，就像打个电话去谈一场棘手的对话，或者干脆像一把扯掉创可贴那样干脆利落。
And that's just a little level of friction or call and have a difficult conversation, the idea of ripping the band aid off.
制造阻力的方法多得是。
There's a whole host of ways of generating friction.
比如强迫自己保持眼神交流，或者故意去做一些不舒服的事——不是那种简单的戒掉社交媒体，或者单纯地做点体力活就完事了。
Holding eye contact that you don't want to, or again, doing things that are intentionally uncomfortable, but not just the standard of putting yourself on a social media detox or doing something physically hard.
办法多得是。
There's a million different ways.
别一味满足自己的所有欲望。
Not entertaining all of our wants.
别总顺着自己，给自己设个不舒服的挑战。
Not entertaining the ability, give yourself a friction challenge.
一整周别用微波炉，也别吃任何加工食品。
Don't use a microwave or any type of packaged food for a week.
这挺烦人的。
That's annoying.
你没法吃速溶燕麦了。
You can't have your oatmeal.
也不能直接伸手去抓罐子里的杏仁。
You don't get to go into the container of almonds.
你得自己剥杏仁，或者把它捣碎了吃。
You have to eat the almond or mash it yourself.
在书里，我详细介绍了如何增加一些障碍。
And in the book, I outline ways to add in friction.
我觉得这其实是在推动我们达到更高的标准。
And I think it just ends up pushing us to a higher standard.
这真是一次很有收获的交流，我觉得你让我们所有人都提升了标准。
Well, has been an education, and I think you've pushed us all to a higher standard here.
加布里埃勒·莱昂博士是《永远强健》的作者，这本书提出了一套基于科学的健康衰老新方法，最近她又推出了《永远强健行动指南》。
Doctor Gabrielle Lyon is the author of Forever Strong, a new science based strategy for aging well, and then more recently, The Forever Strong Playbook.
您的网站是什么？大家如果想了解更多，可以直接去那里查看。
What's your website so that people know if they wanna go get more information from you?
首先，我可没说‘勉强算弱’这种话。
Well, first of all, I didn't call it marginally weak.
对吧？
Right?
我本来完全可以写一本跟《永远强健》完全相反的书，叫什么‘勉强算弱’，那样对话可能就完全不一样了。
I could have written a book that was the opposite of Forever Strong and be like marginally weak, and then maybe the conversation would have been totally different.
事实上，肌肉和蛋白质只不过是个特洛伊木马。
The reality is muscle and protein is just the Trojan horse.
或者说，它能唤起人们追求更好的自己。
Or what I believe can call people to a higher version of themselves.
所以我只想强调一下，它真的只是个特洛伊木马。
And so I just want to leave that on the table that it's just the Trojan horse.
它只是一个途径，一个入口。
It's just the way, it's the entry point.
现在我告诉你们我的网站，希望你们还没觉得我是个疯子关掉页面。
Now I'll tell you my website, if they haven't already turned me off like this crazy lady.
网址是 drgabriellelyon.com。
It's drgabriellelyon.com.
我们有一个全远程的医疗诊所，叫 Strong Medical。
We have a medical practice that's all telemedicine, strong medical.
我还有一个播客，会采访医生和博士，坦诚地讨论科学和前沿研究。
I have a podcast where we interview MDs and PhDs and have very transparent conversations on the science and emerging science.
我有一个很棒的通讯简报。
I have a great newsletter.
还有，社交媒体上我也都有，Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn、TikTok，哪儿都有。
And, yeah, social media on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, TikTok, you name it.
Lyon医生，非常感谢您抽出时间。
Doctor Lyon, thank you very much for your time.
和您聊天真开心。
Great to talk to you.
先生，非常感谢您邀请我来做客。
Sir, thank you so much for having me.
感谢各位收听或观看本节目，也衷心感谢所有为这个节目付出努力的人。
Thank you so much for listening to or watching the show, and thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show a reality.
《10% Happier》由塔拉·安德森和埃莉诺·瓦西利制作。
10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili.
节目的录制和后期制作由Pod People团队负责。
Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People.
劳伦·史密斯是我们制作总监。
Lauren Smith is our managing producer.
玛丽莎·施耐德曼是我们高级制作人。
Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer.
DJ Cashmere 是我们的执行制作人，而岛屿乐队的尼克·索恩为本节目创作了主题曲。
DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
在你离开之前，最后提醒一下，请注册我的应用，叫作《10% 与丹·哈里斯》。
Also, one last thing before you go, remember to sign up for my app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris.
你可以在 danharris.com 上注册这个应用。
You can sign up for the app over on danharris.com.
在应用里，你可以找到由全球顶尖冥想导师提供的丰富冥想内容，无广告收听本节目及庞大的往期节目库，参与独家直播活动，还有活跃的讨论区，可以和我、导师以及团队成员互动交流。如果你不确定要不要买，可以先免费试用14天。
On the app, you will find a growing library of meditations from many of the world's greatest meditation teachers, ad free access to this podcast and our voluminous back catalog, exclusive livestream events, and robust discussion threads connect with me and with our teachers and our team and one another, there's a free fourteen day trial if you wanna try before you buy.
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