金钱心理学 | 摩根·豪塞尔

这里是《快乐多10%》播客，我是丹·哈里斯。大家好。经过十多年的冥想、撰写关于冥想、幸福与爱的书籍，以及主持这档采访各类导师和研究者的节目后，若要我指出自己最难以自控、引发最多焦虑的领域，那便是金钱。这是个极其丰富、混乱且复杂的话题。

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, everybody. After more than a decade of meditating, writing books about meditation, happiness, and love, and hosting this show where I interview gurus and researchers of all stripes, after all of that work, if I had to pick the one place where I am still the least regulated, the place that provokes most of my anxiety, it would be money. It's such a rich and messy and complicated topic.

它关联着我们的童年、对安全的需求、对爱的渴望，以及与他人攀比的冲动。说到这个，我特别喜欢一句老话：快乐的人比连襟多赚100美元。但如今我们的比较对象早已不限于亲戚。

It links back to our childhoods, our need for safety, our desire for love, our compulsion to keep up with other people. In that regard, actually, there's an old expression I love. It runs something like this. A happy man makes a $100 more than his brother-in-law. But now we don't just compare ourselves to our in laws.

社交媒体让我们能与全世界任何人比较。这可真有趣。那么该如何应对？如何理智处理与金钱的关系？今天我们将开启一个两集系列专题。

Social media has allowed us to compare ourselves to literally everyone. So that's fun. So how to manage this? How to handle our relationship to money sanely? Today, we are launching a two part series.

周三我们将对话一位深入研究金钱关系的佛法导师，从佛教角度探讨这个话题。而今天嘉宾是摩根·豪塞尔，畅销书《金钱心理学》作者，该书销量超200万册。摩根是Collaborative Fund合伙人，两度荣获美国商业编辑与作家协会最佳商业奖。本次对话我们将探讨：金钱对幸福的实际作用、快乐与满足的区别、富有与财富的差异、'足够'这个难以捉摸却关键的概念、不随意提高'足够'标准的重要性、他认为财务成功更多取决于行为而非智商的观点、如何控制金钱相关的贪婪与恐惧、人生经历如何塑造金钱观、为何高估物质的社会价值、为何要为储蓄而储蓄，以及财务规划中预留容错空间的必要性。

On Wednesday, we're gonna talk to a dharma teacher who's done a lot of thinking about our relationship to money, and we'll talk about it in Buddhist terms. Today, though, it's Morgan Housel, author of the best selling book, The Psychology of Money, which has sold more than 2,000,000 copies. Morgan is a partner at the Collaborative Fund and a two time winner of the Best in Business Award from the Society of American Business Editors and Writers. In this conversation, we talked about what role money really plays in our happiness, the difference between happiness and contentment, the difference between being rich and being wealthy, the elusive but crucial concept of enough, the importance of not moving the goalposts when it comes to enoughness, his contention that your success with finances has less to do with intelligence and more to do with behavior, having more control over greed and fear when it comes to our money, how our lived experiences impact our perspective on money for the rest of our lives, why we overestimate the social benefit of having nice stuff, why you should save for savings sake, and why it's so important to leave room for error in your financial planning.

内容相当丰富，这期节目可谓'含金量'十足（小小双关）。广告之后马上开始与摩根·豪塞尔的对话。近期danharris.com有很多活动：每月有特邀导师带领大家进行全新引导式冥想，这些冥想专门配合我们周一和周三播客内容设计。付费用户还可参加每周直播冥想与问答会。

So a lot here. It's a very rich episode to be a little cute, and we will get started with Morgan Housel right after this. Lots going on over at danharris.com these days. Every month, we've got a teacher of the month who'll be along for the ride with all of us, bringing you brand new guided meditations that are customized to go with the conversations you hear on our Monday and Wednesday episodes. We're also now doing weekly live meditation and q and a sessions for paid subscribers.

有时由我主持，有时是当月导师，有时我们共同带领。我们先冥想，再畅聊答疑。佛陀历来强调修行团体对提升生活和冥想实践的重要性。若想加入这个社群，请前往danharris.com注册，即刻解锁全部引导冥想资源和每周直播活动。

Sometimes they're led by me, sometimes by the teacher of the month, sometimes by the two of us together. We meditate, then we chop it up, take your questions. The Buddha long talked about the importance of community as a way to improve your life and your meditation practice. So if you wanna be part of this community, sign up at danharris.com. As soon as you do, you'll get access to our full slate of guided meditations and all of our weekly live gatherings.

欢迎成为我们的一员。摩根·豪塞尔，欢迎来到节目。

Join the party. Morgan Housel, welcome to the show.

非常感谢邀请我，丹。

Thanks so much for having me, Dan.

我很期待与你交谈。让我引用你书中的一段话。你在书的开头提到，这本书的前提是，理财成功与否与智商关系不大，而与行为方式息息相关。你能详细解释一下吗？

I'm excited to talk to you. Let me quote you back to you. You say early in your book, the premise of this book is that doing well with money has little to do with how smart you are and a lot to do with how you behave. Can you unpack that?

我认为这在金融领域确实如此，稍后我会详细说明。但更重要的是，这种规律几乎不适用于其他任何领域。在大多数领域，无论是医学、工程还是技术，职业成就与智力、教育背景和学业表现密切相关。你找不到没上过医学院的医生。

Well, I think it's true in finance. I'll go into that in a second. But I think the more important part is that it is not true in almost any other field. In most fields, whether it's medicine or engineering or technology, how well you do in your career is heavily tied to your intelligence, your education, how well you did in school. You're not going to find any doctors who didn't go to med school.

他们都是非常聪明的人，从事着专业工作。每个医生都经历过严苛的医学院教育，这需要高智商等等。所以人们理解这种关联性。但在金融领域，这种关联要松散得多，甚至可能根本不存在。有些人拥有哈佛金融博士学位，精通所有公式、技术和数据，却仍会惨败，最终破产。

They're just really smart people and they do what they do. Like every doctor went to med school, it's very hard, you need to be intelligent, etc. So people understand that connection. In finance, I think it is so much looser, if not just nonexistent, where you can have people who have a PhD in finance from Harvard, and they know all the formulas, all the techniques, they have all the data, and they fail miserably. They go bankrupt.

而另一个极端是，可能存在完全没有受过教育、对金融一窍不通的乡下人，但他们能完全掌控自己的贪婪与恐惧。他们坚持储蓄，进行长期投资，最终成为完全财务自由的千万富翁，并将财富捐赠给慈善机构。我认为这种脱节现象在其他领域不会发生，这使得金融理财成为人们生活中独特而重要、却又容易被忽视的话题。

And then on the other end of the spectrum, you can have a country bumpkin who has no education whatsoever and doesn't know anything about finance, but they have total control over their sense of greed and fear. They save, they invest for the long term, and they retire fully independent multimillionaires donating their money to charity. And I think that disconnect just doesn't happen in any other field, which makes finance and money a pretty important and just unique topic in people's lives that's easy to overlook.

你用了'完全掌控贪婪与恐惧'这个表述。什么样的人能做到这点？

You used the phrase total control over greed and fear. Who has that?

你知道，这是我使用的一个非常主观的表述。但确实存在这样的人——比如那些每月坚持投资股市低成本指数基金，持续三四十年甚至五十年的人。这些人真实存在。当2008年金融危机、2000年互联网泡沫或2020年3月新冠疫情导致股市崩盘时，他们纹丝不动。

And, you know, it's that's a very subjective phrase that I use. But you have people who, let's just say, have have invested consistently every month in a low cost index fund in the stock market, and they do it for thirty or forty or fifty years. Those people exist. They are out there. And during the market crashes, when the stock market crashes and the economy plunges in 2008 or the year 2000 or March 2020 with COVID, they did nothing.

他们并未惊慌失措，甚至毫无动作。他们连账户都没查看，压根没考虑过这事。有些人对待投资的态度就是眼不见心不烦，根本不会放在心上。

They didn't panic. They didn't do anything. They didn't even check their accounts. They weren't even thinking about it. There are people for whom their investments are so out of sight, out of mind, they're not even thinking about it.

在我看来，以我的主观定义，这些人完全掌控了自己的贪婪与恐惧。市场繁荣时他们不会过度兴奋，市场下跌时也不会惊慌失措。他们就这样让投资自然运行数十年之久。这类人确实存在，而且他们往往是你所能遇见的最富有、最成功的投资者。

And those are the people that, in my view, in my subjective definition, would have complete control over their sense of greed and fear. They're not getting overly excited when the market is booming. They're not freaking out when it's going down. They're just letting it ride for literally decades. Those people are out there, and they are some of the wealthiest and most successful investors you'll ever meet.

这些人的一个共同点是，他们绝大多数都不是职业投资者。他们不是华尔街玩家，甚至意识不到自己的做法有多么独特罕见。有些毫无金融背景的人就是放任投资自行运转。而金融界有个明显趋势——那些最聪明、受过顶尖教育的人，比如华尔街精英或哈佛MIT的博士们，总想不断调整参数、操纵杠杆，试图获取更高投资回报。

And one of the common denominators about those people is that, by and large, they are not professional investors. They are not Wall Street investors. They're not people who even know that what they are doing is so special and rare. There are people that don't have any financial background and whatnot that are just leaving it alone and letting it run. And there is such a tendency in finance for the smartest, most educated people, the people on Wall Street or who have PhDs from Harvard or MIT, to wanna fiddle with the knobs and pull the levers as much as they can to try to earn higher returns from their investments to do better with their money.

绝大多数情况下（虽非绝对），这种做法反而会适得其反。而那些永远不干预的新手们——如果你能持续投资股市三十年左右，最终将跻身顶尖5%的投资者之列。用比喻来说，你将击败95%整天摆弄旋钮的专业人士。重申一次，这种情况几乎不会发生在其他任何领域。

And by and large, not always, but overwhelmingly, it ends up backfiring on them. And the novices who are just leaving it alone forever, if you can invest consistently in the stock market for thirty years or something like that, you will end up in the top 5% of investors. You will beat 95% of the pros who are fiddling with the knobs, so to speak. And again, to repeat, that just doesn't happen. That situation does not happen in almost any other field.

有意思。我知道我们接下来都会自我剖析。你提到那些放任投资的人——我父母正是如此。他们都是学术型医生，收入并不算特别高。

It's interesting. I I know we're both gonna self disclose in the course of this conversation. You talk about people who just let it ride. So my parents did that. They were both academic physicians, which is not an extremely high paying job.

我们成长于稳固的上中产家庭，但他们并非大公司CEO之类的人物。他们在支付家庭开支和子女需求后，将剩余收入存入这些指数基金或少数共同基金长期持有，从不取出也不恐慌。这就是我的投资方式——我可能一年才查看一次储蓄总额等数据。

We had a solid upper middle class upbringing, but they were not CEOs of major companies or anything like that. But they used their income after paying for their household expenses and whatever things their children demanded to save. And they just let it ride in these index funds or maybe a few mutual funds forever, and didn't pull it out, didn't freak out about it. And you know, so that's how I invest. I never, or maybe once a year, look at the total number, the bottom line for what we have in savings, etcetera, etcetera.

但我绝不敢说自己完全掌控了贪婪与恐惧。我只是恐惧到不敢查看罢了。我选择完全放手，相信专家管理。我理解所谓'美元成本平均法'的理念——持续储蓄意味着你在高位和低位都在买入，长期来看反而获得了折价优势。

But I would definitely not describe myself as somebody who has total control over his greed and fear. I just have so much fear that I won't allow myself to look. I just let it ride. I trust that it's in the hands of experts. I understand the idea that if you I guess it's called dollar cost averaging, that if you just continue to save, you're buying when it's high, you're buying when it's low, over time, that means you're you're getting a bargain.

总之，对我刚才说的任何话有什么回应吗？

Anyway, any response to anything I've just said?

嗯，这很有趣，因为我父母几乎一模一样。我父亲是急诊室医生，所以不是学术型医师，但他确实是医生。没有金融培训，没有金融教育或背景，甚至可以说，他对投资也没有太高兴趣，比如会为此兴奋或特别关注。但他定期定额投资先锋指数基金。到现在已经坚持快四十年了，说实话，如果你把我父母和专业投资者放在一起排名，他们能排进前5%。

Well, it's interesting because my parents were almost the exactly the same. My dad was an ER doctor, so not an academic physician, but he was a physician. No financial training, no financial education or background, or even, I would say, even high interest in investing in terms of him being, like, excited or or that interested in it. But he dollar cost averaged into Vanguard index funds. He's done it for going on forty years now, and I honestly think that if you put my parents, if you rank them against professional investors, they would be the top 5%.

前5%，甚至可能更少。前3%。这很惊人。而且，这在其他领域是不会发生的。我认为可能有一个接近的类比：你可以是哈佛培养的医生，但如果你酗酒、吸烟、压力大、睡眠不足，你的健康状况会非常糟糕。

Top 5%, maybe even less. Top 3%. It's astounding. And, that just doesn't happen in any other fields. I think maybe one analogy that might be close to it is that you can be a Harvard trained doctor, let's say, but if you drink too much and smoke and you're stressed out and you don't sleep, your health is gonna be terrible.

另一方面，你可以对生物学或医学一无所知，但如果你饮食健康、坚持锻炼、压力小，你会非常健康。这是一个类比，说明像你有多聪明这样的更多教育，其实并没有太大区别。重要的是你的行为方式，这才是影响一切的关键。而且我认为还有一个事实，像我们的父母，我的父母和你的父母，他们的投资方式非常无聊且不干涉。这是你能做的最不令人兴奋的事情。

And on the other hand, you can know nothing about biology or medicine, but if you eat healthy and exercise and you're low stressed, you'll be very healthy. That's one analogy of how people with more education, like, how smart you are, doesn't really make that much of a difference. It's how you behave that has all of the impact in the world. And I I think there is a truth too that the people like our parents, my parents, and your parents, how they invested, the way that they did it is very boring and hands off. It's the least exciting thing that you could do.

定期定额投资于一个平淡无奇的指数基金，你知道的，就是一个宽基指数，然后三十年不去管它，多么乏味啊。如果你是一名金融专业人士，试图从职业中获得智力上的刺激，或者试图向客户证明你的费用是合理的，你就不能做这么无聊的事情。你做不到。你必须像拉动操纵杆、拨弄旋钮一样，试图让自己保持兴奋，并向客户展示你在为他们做些什么。而且这里有一个众所周知的关联性。

Dollar cost average into an index fund of boring, you know, just a a broad index and leave it alone for three decades, so boring. And if you are a financial professional and you're trying to be intellectually stimulated by your career or you're trying to justify your fees to your clients, you can't do something that boring. You can't do it. You have to be, again, like pulling the levers and fiddling the knobs to try to keep yourself excited and to show that your clients that you're doing something for them. And there's a very well known correlation.

许多不同的研究都表明，投资活动越频繁，你买卖交易的次数越多，平均表现就越差。这就是为什么所有这些专业投资者最终的表现往往远不如那些根本不知道自己该做什么的新手。

This has been studied in in many different studies of the more activity you have in investing, the more you are buying and selling and trading, the worse that you do on average. And so that's why you have all these professional investors that end up doing so much worse than the novices who have no idea what they're doing, so to speak.

那么，如果我们有一些听众是积习难改、强迫症般的频繁操作者，你会建议他们用什么方法来稍微控制一下贪婪和恐惧，以便长期来看能真正做得更好呢？

So if we have people listening to us who are inveterate compulsive knob twiddlers, What would you recommend as a way to have a little bit more control over greed and fear so that you can actually do better in the long run?

我认为这里有几个要点需要提出。首先，这些数字是我编造的，但我认为它们的方向是正确的。百分之十的人，百分之十的社会群体在财务上不需要任何帮助。他们天生就直观地理解复利以及应该储蓄多少。他们就是明白。

I think there's a few things to bring up here. One is I'm making up these numbers, but I think they're directionally right. Ten percent of people, ten percent of society does not need any help with their finances. They were born understanding intuitively compound interest and how much they should save. They just get it.

听起来我们的父母可能都属于那一类人。那是百分之十的人。另外百分之十的人无法在金钱上得到帮助。他们是强迫性赌徒。无论你告诉他们什么或展示什么信息，他们都会在金钱上做出糟糕的决定。

Sounds like both of our parents are probably in that group. That's ten percent of people. Another ten percent of people cannot be helped with their money. They're compulsive gamblers. No matter what you tell them or what information you show them, they're gonna make terrible decisions with their money.

那是另外百分之十。然后还有百分之八十的人需要并渴望好的建议。对于这些人，如果你展示正确的数据并讲述恰当的故事，他们会说，哦，这有道理。我现在明白了。我会尝试做一些稍微不同的事情。

That's another ten percent. And then there's eighty percent of people who want and need good advice. And for those people, if you show them the right data and tell them the right stories, they will say, oh, this makes sense. I get it now. I'm gonna try to do something a little bit differently.

对我来说，投资股票市场最重要的历史数据是重大波动性的普遍程度。所以，在当前的股票市场中，如果有人关注，哪怕是稍微关注一下，你就会知道今年股市下跌了很多。年初至今下跌了25%。你在过去九个月里损失了四分之一的钱。这看起来像是一个疯狂的结果，像是出了什么问题，有人犯了大错，政策制定者应该感到羞愧。

To me, the most important data that exists in investing for investing in the stock market is how common historically major volatility has been. So in the stock market right now, if anyone follows it, even even just loosely follows it, you will know that the stock market is down a lot this year. It's down 25% year to date. You've lost a quarter of your money in the last nine months. That seems like a crazy outcome, like something broke, somebody made a huge mistake, like shame on policymakers.

如果你回顾过去一百年的历史，那种程度的下跌平均每三到四年就会发生一次，而且过去一个世纪都是如此。这是非常正常的现象。顺便说一下，在上个世纪，股市增长了200倍。你的钱翻了200倍。但在那期间，它是一连串的损失、回调和熊市。

If you look historically over the last hundred years, that kind of decline is something that occurs on average every three or four years and has for the last century. It's a very normal thing to occur. And by the way, during the last century, the stock market increased 200 fold. You made 200 times your money. But during that period, it is a constant chain of loss and pullback and bear market.

所以我认为，只要理解这些现象的普遍性，就能让你在面对像我们现在这样的回调时，感觉比原本可能的情况稍微容易接受一些。另一种思考方式，我认为对改变你的心态以及如何看待贪婪和恐惧有很大帮助，就是大多数人当他们在股市中亏钱，投资组合下跌时，他们视之为罚款。而罚款意味着你遇到了麻烦。你犯了错。就像，这是对你的惩罚。

So I think just understanding how common those things are makes it so that when you deal with a pullback like we are, it's a little bit more palatable than it otherwise might be. The other way to think about this that I think goes a long way in changing your mindset and how you think about greed and fear is most people, when they lose money in the stock market, their portfolio goes down, they view it as a fine. And a fine means you're in trouble. You made a mistake. Like, here's your punishment.

你应该感到羞愧。这就是罚款的含义。但更好的思考方式是将你的波动性视为费用。费用并不意味着你遇到了麻烦。也不意味着你犯了错。

Shame on you. That's what a fine is. A much better way to think about it, though, is viewing your volatility as a fee. And a fee doesn't mean you're in trouble. It doesn't mean you made a mistake.

费用只是通往更好事物的入场券。如果你把波动性视为——哦，这并不有趣。我不喜欢它，但这是入场费。我只是在支付我的会费，以便在未来十年或二十年获得良好的长期回报。再次强调，这使得这种波动性更容易接受。

A fee is just the cost of admission to get something better on the other side. And if you view volatility as, oh, this isn't fun. I don't enjoy it, but this is the cost of admission. I'm just paying my dues in order to get good long term returns over the next ten or twenty years. Again, it makes it so this volatility is just more palatable.

这并不有趣。这并不令人愉快，但你会说，我只是在这里支付账单，但我知道，我是一个乐观主义者，在未来十年或二十年里，支付这些账单实际上是值得的，为了在另一边得到更好的东西。

It's not fun. It's not enjoyable, but you say, I'm just paying the bills here, but I know, you know, I'm an optimist over the next ten or twenty years, and paying these bills is actually worth it to get something better on the other side.

我们一直在讨论投资心理学，但让我问你一个关于广义金钱心理学的问题。你认为——我相信你已经思考了很多——金钱与幸福之间的联系是什么？你知道，有句老话说金钱买不到幸福，但也有句老话说无论贫富，有钱总是好的。那么，就你所见，这两者之间的联系是什么？

We've been talking about the psychology of investing, but let me just ask you a question about the psychology of money writ large. What do you think and I'm sure you've thought a lot about this. The connection is between money and happiness? You know, there's the old saw about how money can't buy you happiness, but then there's the old expression about how rich or poor, it's nice to have money. So what is the connection as far as you can see?

电影《锅炉房》中有一句台词，我认为很好地总结了这一点。他说，那些说金钱买不到幸福的人根本没有钱。这也是一个很好的总结方式。我认为这里有两件事需要考虑。一是金钱能为你买来什么样的幸福？

There's a quote from the movie Boiler Room that I think sums it up well. He says, people who say money doesn't buy happiness don't have any. That's a good way to kind of sum it up too. I think there's two things to think about here. One is what kind of happiness might money buy you?

大多数人想到金钱的目的时，第一反应是金钱能买来东西。它能买来房子、汽车、假期、衣服和高级餐厅。这就是金钱能为你买来的。更多的是物质。这是一方面，我不想贬低这一点，因为我也喜欢好东西。

And most people, when they think about the purpose of money, the knee jerk reaction is money buys you stuff. It buys you homes and cars and vacations and clothes and fancy restaurants. That's what money buys you. It's more stuff. That's one thing, and I don't wanna poo poo that because I like nice stuff as well.

但金钱还能买来另一件很容易被忽视和低估的东西，那就是自由、控制和自主权。能够每天早上醒来，说今天可以做任何我想做的事。我不依赖任何人。我有自己的钱，自己的财富，可以住在我想住的地方，在我想要的时候退休，从事我想要的工作，为我想为之工作的人工作。拥有这种来自你所储蓄的金钱的自由、独立和自主权，对我来说，是金钱能买来的最重要的东西，因为它实际上能给你更好的生活，让你更快乐。

But there's another thing that money buys you that is so easy to overlook and discount, which is just freedom and control and autonomy. And just being able to wake up every morning and say, can do whatever I want today. I'm not reliant on anyone else. I have my own money, my own wealth to live where I want, retire when I want, work in the kind of job that I want, work for whom I want. Having that freedom and independence and autonomy that comes from the money that you've saved is that to me is by far and away the most important thing that money can buy in terms of actually giving you a better life and making yourself happier.

这里还有一点很重要，'幸福'这个词可能会让很多人困惑。幸福总是一种非常短暂的情绪。举个例子，如果我告诉你世界上最有趣的笑话，你从未听过更有趣的笑话，你可能会笑二十秒，然后就不笑了。如果我每天重复这个笑话，它就不再有趣了。幸福也是如此。

The other thing that's important here is the word happy can throw a lot of people off. Happiness is always a very fleeting emotion. It was easy at the example, like, if I told you the funniest joke in the world, you've never heard a funnier joke, you might laugh for twenty seconds, and then you're done laughing. And if I repeated that joke to you every day, you it would not be funny anymore. Happiness is the same.

当然，并不是说幸福不存在。只是它总是转瞬即逝，是时光中的一个瞬间。但我认为金钱能带给你的，不一定是幸福，而是满足感。

It's not that happiness doesn't exist, of course. It's just always very fleeting. It's a moment in time. I think what money can buy you, though, is not necessarily happiness. It's contentment.

许多研究都表明：富人比钱少的人更幸福吗？不，未必。但他们对生活更满足吗？他们更可能说'我已实现了大部分目标'吗？

And that's what a lot of these studies would show is that are rich people happier than people with with less money? No. Not necessarily. Are they more content in life? Are they more likely to say, I've accomplished most of my goals?

他们更可能说'我对现状挺满意'吗？'我不一定幸福，但我接受自己的生活境遇'。是的，他们更满足——但这与幸福截然不同。他们不会每天早晨都笑得合不拢嘴。

Are they more likely to say, I'm pretty okay with where I am right here? I'm not necessarily happy, but I'm okay with my lot in life. Yes. They're more content, but that's very different from happiness. They're not waking up every morning smiling ear to ear.

事实上，世界上许多最富有的人，用我的话形容就是'明显不幸福'。全球前十富豪中累计有14次离婚——前十名里14次！细看比尔·盖茨、埃隆·马斯克、沃伦·巴菲特等人的生平，你会发现他们的生活绝非多数人向往或效仿的对象。巴菲特这个人——我不确定是否该用'偶像'这个词——但确实让我长期着迷且钦佩，至今如此。

And in fact, a lot of the richest people in the world are what I would describe as distinctly unhappy. I mean, there are 14 divorces in the top 10 richest people in the world. 14 in the top 10 richest people. And I think if you look at a lot of the lives of Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Warren Buffett, a lot of them, if you really dig into their biographies, do not live lives that I think most of us would want to have or emulate. Warren Buffett has been I I don't know if I would use the word hero, but someone who I've been always fascinated with and admired, and I still do.

我认为他度过了精彩绝伦的一生。但若你读过他的传记《滚雪球》（作者爱丽丝·施罗德），就会发现他的私生活实在称不上美好，甚至充满灾难性时刻。

I just think he's lived a fascinating life that is so amazing. But his personal life, if you dig into his biography, his biography is called Snowball. It was written by an author named Alice Schroeder. His personal life has not been great at all. In fact, there's been a lot of moments in his personal life that are disastrous.

当你仰望那些想成为的人时——尤其年轻人常以最富有的群体为榜样——必须明白：若你想要他们的人生，就不能只挑选其中部分。你不能说'我只想要他的豪宅、财富和英俊外表'，这些从来不是独立存在的。

And it's important when you are looking up to other people who you want to be. And oftentimes, particularly for younger people, who they want to be and look up to are the richest, wealthiest people. It's important to realize that if you want their life, you can't just pick parts of their life. You can't just say, I want his house and his money and his good looks. It it doesn't come like that.

若你想成为沃伦·巴菲特，就必须承受随之而来的糟糕私生活；若想成为比尔·盖茨，就得接受过去两年比尔与梅琳达婚姻破裂的境遇。所有这些都密不可分，让人很容易忽视金钱对幸福真正能起——或不能起——的作用。

If you wanna be Warren Buffett, you also have to have the terrible personal life that has come with it. If you wanna be Bill Gates, you have to have the personal life that kinda fell to pieces over the last two years with Bill and Melinda Gates. All those things are wrapped up into one in a way that I think it makes it very easy to overlook what money can and cannot do for you in terms of your happiness.

你认为为什么超级富豪的生活中会有这么多动荡？那里发生了什么？

Why do you think the super rich have so much tumult in their lives? What's going on there?

我认为大体上，这其实很容易解释。你之所以成为超级富豪，是因为你有一个古怪的个性。他们中的每一个人，除了那些继承财富的人。对于那些自己赚取巨额财富的人来说，他们中的每一个人，无一例外，都是怪人。他们有着疯狂的痴迷性格，是个古怪的人物。

I think by and large, it's it's actually pretty easy to explain. You become super rich by having an oddball personality. Every single one of them, with the exception, I guess, of people who have inherited it. For people who have earned their own dynastic riches, every single one of them, without exception, is an oddball. They were a curious character of a crazy obsessive personality.

我是说，埃隆·马斯克在他三十多岁时曾说，我要挑战NASA和通用汽车。在他三十多岁的时候。唯一会认为自己能做到这一点的人是个疯子。一个彻头彻尾的疯子才会说这就是我要用我的生命和金钱去做的事。我们不应该感到惊讶，当那些有着导致积极特质的古怪个性的人，同样也有着导致消极特质的古怪个性。

I mean, Elon Musk, when he was in his thirties, he said, I'm gonna take on NASA and General Motors. In his thirties. The only kind of person who thinks they can do that is a maniac. A complete nutcase maniac is the only person who would say that's what I'm gonna do with my life and my money. And we should not be surprised when people who have oddball personalities that lead to positive attributes also have oddball personalities that lead to negative attributes.

比尔·盖茨以极其可怕、令人畏惧的老板形象闻名。如今，他那种强势的个性和作为老板有点混蛋的能力正是他成功的原因。这些负面特质也同样存在。我想也许最简单的方式来总结这一点，共同点就是，他们之所以富有和成功，是因为他们有一种近乎折磨心态的24/7的痴迷。而这种导致他们成功的折磨心态，也让他们无法拥有一个非常平衡、快乐和愉快的生活。

Bill Gates is known as just a horrific, horrendous person to work for. And now his driving personality and his ability to be kind of a jerk as a boss is why he was successful. It had all these negative attributes as well. And I think maybe the the easiest way to summarize this, the common denominator, is they are rich and successful because they have a twenty four seven obsession that verges on, like, a tortured mindset. And that tortured mindset that has led to their success also makes them just not a very balanced and happy and enjoyable life.

我有时听到我七岁的儿子，我知道你也有一个七岁的孩子，我有时听到我七岁的儿子和他的朋友们玩耍时，他们会频繁提到埃隆·马斯克，因为他们知道他是世界首富。我想我从你那里听到的是，我们不应该追求那个，因为为了达到那个目标，我们必须成为一个真正的异类，而我们大多数人不是。我想我从中还听到了一点，为了拥有那种成功，你必须拥有这种折磨的心态，这可能不是一个有趣的生存状态。

I sometimes hear my seven year old son, I know you have a seven year old as well, I sometimes hear my seven year old son playing with his buddies, and they will reference with some frequency Elon Musk because they know him as the world's richest man. I guess what I'm hearing from you is that we shouldn't shoot for that because in order to get that, we would have to be a true outlier, which most of us are not. And I guess I'm hearing a little bit in there that in order to have that kind of success, you've gotta have this grinding mindset that would probably not be a fun one to inhabit.

没错。我是说，如果你问大多数成年人，什么是你生命中的骄傲和快乐，你可能会得到的最常见的答案是我的孩子，我的婚姻，一些关于你的家庭、你的朋友、你一起玩耍的人。但是有太多故事，比如比尔·盖茨提到过，他工作了25年，每周七天。他25年没有休息过一天。老实说，很多那些他工作的日子里，他会说，你知道，他晚上11点下班回家，倒在沙发上，然后早上6点又回去工作。他这样一周七天，持续了25年。

Right. I mean, if you ask most adults what is the pride and joy of your life, the most common answer you would probably get is my children, my marriage, something around your family, your friends, the people who you've hung out with. But there's so many stories of, you know, Bill Gates has mentioned that he went I I think it was twenty five years of working seven days a week. He didn't take a day off for twenty five years, Honestly and a lot of those days where he was working, he would say, you know, he came home from work at 11:00 at night, crashed on the couch, and went back to work at 6AM. And he did that seven days a week for twenty five years.

你想谈谈那些错过的与孩子共度的记忆吗？还有那些与朋友一起在火炉边喝杯酒之类的轻松时光？当你拥有那种完全痴迷的个性时，所有这些都会被错过。埃隆·马斯克也谈到过这一点，你知道，特斯拉在2018年差点破产。现在这是众所周知的事。埃隆·马斯克谈到，基本上那一年他都在工厂里睡觉。

You wanna talk about, like, the memories that were missed with your children and, you know, relationships of just, like, hanging out, just having a glass of wine by the fire with your friends kind of thing? All those things get missed when you have that completely obsessive personality. Elon Musk has talked about this as well that, you know, Tesla went came very close to going bankrupt in 2018. That's now a well known thing. And Elon Musk talks about for basically the entire year, he was sleeping in the factory.

他几乎从未离开过工厂，实际上每天工作24小时。在那段时期，他完全没有时间陪伴孩子。这里有一段他的采访，当谈到特斯拉的成功直接剥夺了他与孩子们共处的时光时，他潸然泪下。如果我躺在临终床上回顾一生，我会为什么感到更自豪？

He was literally never leaving the factory. He was working twenty four hours a day effectively. And during that period, he spent no time with his children. And there's an interview here he gave where he comes to tears over this fact that the success of Tesla comes directly at the time he has spent with his children. That is not something if if I were if I were on my deathbed and I said, you know, looking back at my life, what would I be prouder of?

是我的净资产，还是与孩子们的关系？答案再明显不过了，我宁愿选择后者。你提到我们七岁的儿子——我七岁的儿子也像你家孩子一样谈论埃隆·马斯克。但对于那些十八九岁、二十出头的年轻人，尤其是年轻男性，他们往往认为人生的终极目标就是变得富有和出名。

My net worth or the relationship with my children? It is so obvious, so just abundantly clear, which I would rather have. And I think this is something that most young people you mentioned our seven year old sons. My seven year old son talks about Elon Musk as well, exactly like yours do. But if especially if you're talking about a young man in their late teens, early twenties, that is when, particularly, I think for young men, the allure in life of who you wanna be is rich and famous.

就是这样。我年轻时也这么想——人生的巅峰就是拥有巨额财富。但随着年龄增长，特别是当你有了孩子后，你会发现那根本不重要。你生命中真正的快乐、满足感和最引以为豪的成就，都来自与朋友、家人和孩子的亲密关系。

That's it. I was like that when I was in my teens and twenties. The top area of life is just having a lot of money. That's it. And you realize as you go on, especially when you have children, that that's not even remotely close, that so much of your happiness and enjoyment in life and what you are proudest of and has been most fulfilling is your relationship with your friends, family, and children.

所以，如果把一份榨干生活、虽财务成功却直接牺牲这些关系的职业摆在我面前，我不仅不会羡慕，反而会以最快速度逃离。

And so if you view a grinding career that is very prosperous financially as coming at the direct expense of that, that is something where it's like, not only do I not admire that, I wanna run away from that as fast as I can.

大卫·布鲁克斯曾谈论过简历美德与悼词美德的区别，你听过他这个观点吗？

David Brooks talks about the difference between resume virtues and eulogy virtues. Have you heard that spiel from him?

听过，说得太棒了。如果我没记错的话，简历美德是'我创建了市值十亿美元的公司'，而悼词美德是'摩根是个好朋友，是充满爱意的丈夫和父亲'。我们真正应该追求的是悼词美德，对吧？

Yes. It's great. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but a resume virtue is I built a billion dollar company, And a eulogy virtue is Morgan was a great friend and loving husband and father. And what we should really strive for in life are the eulogy virtues. Is that right?

没错。虽然我不想代表大卫·布鲁克斯发言，但这是我对他观点的理解。说实话，提到比尔·盖茨连续25年每周工作7天——我虽没做到那种程度，但从三十五六岁到最近，我也经历过每周工作7天的阶段。虽然每年会休几次假，但基本全年无休，为此我付出了极高的代价。

Yes. I don't want to speak for David Brooks, but that's my passing understanding of his thesis. And I gotta be honest, talked about Bill Gates doing twenty five years of seven day weeks. I didn't do that, but I had a period of time, would say from my mid to late 30s to pretty recently when I worked seven day weeks. I did take vacations, a few vacations during the year, but I basically worked seven day weeks, and I paid a really high price for that.

是的。我最近开始改变这一点。顺便说一句，在这段时间里，我就像个所谓的幸福专家。所以这是个容易陷入的陷阱。

Yeah. I've recently started to change that. And I, by the way, during this time, was like an alleged, you know, happiness expert. So this is a trap that is easy to fall into.

但我很好奇，丹，当你回顾那段时光时，你后悔吗？还是说，哦，我从中吸取了教训，在职业上取得了不少成就，但并不一定为此后悔？

But I'm curious, Dan, when you look back on that, do you regret it? Or is it, oh, I learned from it and I accomplished a lot professionally, but I don't necessarily regret it?

是的。你知道，我确实后悔。我在与儿子的关系上付出了高昂代价——我们原本关系不错，但远不如现在亲密。疫情真正改变了这一切，因为我被束缚在家，所有人都是。现在我们的关系亲近多了，这也促使我接连辞职，最终拥有了更合理的工作安排。事实上，我们父子最近刚在洛杉矶共度了一周，我有几天工作，几天空闲，我们整周都在一起。

Yes. And, you know, I do regret it. I paid a high price in terms of my relationship with my son, which was we had a good relationship, but it was not nearly as close as it could have been, and the pandemic really changed that because I was grounded and we all were grounded. Our relationship is so much closer now, and then that was part of what led me to serially quit jobs and get to a place now where I have a much saner schedule. In fact, he and I just recently spent a week together on the road in LA, and when I was out doing some work, I had a couple days of work and a couple days of nothing to do, and we spent a whole week together.

我常开玩笑说想效仿电影《血色将至》里丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯饰演的石油大亨，带着小儿子当左右手——当然不包括他发疯的部分。让七岁的儿子成为我的生死搭档很吸引我，而且我知道他也很开心。所以我后悔我们父子付出的代价，后悔没能多陪妻子，更后悔长期疏远朋友，现在正努力重建这些关系。

I had been making this joke about that movie, There Will Be Blood, where Daniel Day Lewis is an oil magnet who travels around with his little son as his right hand man, and that's kind of what I'm shooting for, except for without the Daniel Day Lewis being insane part. But having a ride or die in my seven year old son is really attractive to me, and I know he has a lot of fun. So I regret the price that he and I paid. I regret that I didn't have as much time with my wife. I really regret not seeing my friends for a long time, and I've been doing a lot of work to rebuild those relationships.

但回顾过去，我确实成就颇丰，这些成就甚至让我能从ABC新闻的历史中退休。所以我的感受很矛盾。

And as I look back at it, I did get a lot done, you know, and I got enough done that actually allowed me to kind of retire from my ABC News history. So it's I have conflicting feelings.

但问题在于，假设你过去二十年每周只工作三天，敷衍了事勉强糊口，赚得少也不成功，但陪伴家人时间很多。在那个平行宇宙里，你现在会不会反而后悔说：'真该更努力工作，在精力最旺盛的黄金时期多赚钱，让孩子住更好的房子，上更好的学校'？

But here's what's so hard about this too, is that let's say you had not done that. Let's say in you know, for the last twenty years or whatever, you had worked three days a week and you did the bare minimum and you got by and you made a lot less money, you were a lot less successful, but you spent a lot of time with your family. Do you think if you had done that in that alternative universe, you might be sitting here saying, man, I wish I had worked harder. I wish I had you know, during the prime of my working years when I had so much energy, I should have worked harder. I should have earned more money so I could send my kids to, you know, live in a better house and maybe they go to better better schools.

很多人也有这种后悔。所以从来不是非黑即白。

A lot of people have that regret too. So it's never black and white.

接下来，摩根将探讨为何人们容易高估拥有美好事物带来的社会效益，理解'知足'的重要性，以及为何'足够'不是具体数字而是一种心态。这很有趣，因为我曾在临终关怀环境中工作，有句老话说：从没有人临终时会后悔工作不够努力。但我其实赞同你的观点。我确实认识一些人，他们后悔年轻时虚度光阴，导致许多机会之门对他们关闭。就像生活中的一切，这在我看来需要平衡。

Coming up next, Morgan talks about why it is so easy to overestimate the social benefit of having nice stuff, the importance of having a sense of what is enough, and why enough isn't a number, but rather a mindset. It's interesting because I have spent time in hospice environments and there's an old chestnut about how nobody ever says on their deathbed I wish I had worked harder. But I actually side with you. I do know people who regret having slacked off for a lot of their youth and having a lot of doors closed to them as a consequence. And like everything in life, this just strikes me as a balance.

是的。我父亲也是医生，他提到有些七八十岁的病人对他说——要知道医生这个职业能让你深入了解人们的社会生活和处境——这些病人会说：'我77岁了，没存退休金，但年纪太大没法继续做体力活了'。

Yeah. My my father, who again is a physician, he is he's talked about some patients who come to him and say, let's say, they're in their mid to late seventies, and they say, you know, part of being a doctor is you really just get to understand people socially and what's going on in their lives. And some of these patients will say, oh, I'm 77 years old. I don't have any money saved for retirement, but I'm too old to keep working. I can't keep doing this physical labor job.

'我该怎么办？'有人甚至讽刺地说：'难道要工作到死吗？'对很多人而言答案确实是肯定的。这绝对是重大的人生遗憾——回望年轻时浪费了积累财富的机会，如今渴望的生活却因当年虚度光阴而永远无法实现。这种境遇太残酷了。

What am I supposed to do? And some of them have said sarcastically, Am I just supposed to work till I die? And the answer for a lot of those people is, Yeah, that's kind of it. And that is a major, major, I would imagine, life regret of looking back at like, man, I really I screwed my opportunity, my one opportunity during my younger years when I could have saved up something that would have given me a life that I now really desire that I can't have anymore because I had spent all my time goofing off when I was young. That's a tough thing.

虽然听起来像陈词滥调，但除了平衡之外，我想不出其他解决方案。看看两个极端：一边是'及时行乐'的YOLO族，另一边是追求'财务自由'的FIRE族（那些存下90%收入想在30岁退休的人）。这两个极端都极可能导致后悔。年轻时挥霍无度的人会说：'我要享受夜生活、周游世界、结交朋友'。

I mean, it's such a it's such a generic answer, but I I just don't think there's any other way around this solution to this other than balance. And if you look at the two sides of, like, YOLO on one end, you only live once, and then FIRE on the other, like financial independence of, you know, people who save 90% of their income and wanna retire when they're 30 years old, those are the two ends of the spectrum. Both ends of those spectrums, I think, have a high chance of leading to regret. The people who spend all their money in their youth because they're like, oh, I'm young. I wanna hang out and have the best nightlife and travel the world and hang out with my friends.

你很难反驳这种想法，年轻时享乐似乎很棒。但很多人到五六十岁时会突然醒悟：'没有退休金真是个错误'。而另一个极端是那些30岁就退休的人，某天回顾人生时可能怅然若失：'我32岁退休后整天打高尔夫，现在反而后悔了'。财务规划的极端方式最容易滋生悔恨。

Like, how can you argue against that? Like, have fun in your youth. That seems great. But a lot of those people will eventually be 50, 60, 70 years old and not have any money for retirement, and then they're like, ugh, that's that was actually a mistake. And then on the other hand, you have people who save all of their money and wanna retire when they're 30 or 35, and that too can lead to a sense of regret if all a sudden you look back and you're like, I have no more purpose in life.

财务规划的两个极端都蕴含着最高的后悔风险。

I retired when I was 32, and I've just been, like, sitting on the couch playing golf for, career. Now I I regret that as well. The extreme ends of financial planning have the highest degree of potential regret.

我认同这个观点。让我们回到幸福与满足感的话题，刚才我可能没给你足够展开的机会。如果没听错，你说富人未必处于那种转瞬即逝的快乐状态，但他们拥有基础层面的满足感。不过你也提到超级富豪往往古怪到让自己和周围人都痛苦。请再谈谈你认为在超级富豪之下存在的满足感形态。

That sounds right to me. Let me go back to happiness and contentment because I don't think I gave you enough of an opportunity to expound upon that. If I heard you correctly, you were saying that wealthy people may not be in a perpetual state of, you know, what you described as the kind of happiness that is inherently fleeting, but they have a baseline of contentment. And then you went on though to talk about how the super, super rich are often oddballs in a way that actually makes them and the people around them miserable. So talk a little bit more about the kind of contentment that you think exists south of the super, super rich.

我认为，如果按收入群体划分典型人物，我们之前讨论的超级富豪、十亿级富翁如埃隆·马斯克、比尔·盖茨等人自成一类。而那些所谓‘普通富人’，比如牙医、医生或科技公司高管，他们收入优渥，积蓄充足可随时退休，但不像比尔·盖茨那样连续25年每周工作七天。研究表明，这类人往往对生活感到满足。当你问他们职业生涯如何时——

Well, I think if you were to break out, like, a generic character across income groups, the super rich we've been talking about, the deca billionaires, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, those people, they're in a category of their own. Let's call, like, the merely rich, like a dentist or a doctor or a tech executive, something like that. People who make a very good income, have saved up enough money to retire on their own terms when they want to, but they were not working seven days a week for a quarter century like Bill Gates did per se. Those people, I think, are who the studies would show have contentment. And when you ask them, how did your career go?

他们会说：我的职业生涯很棒，毫无遗憾。或许回顾时会想，某些机会本可以把握得更好。

They'd say, my career was great. It was great. I don't have any regrets. Maybe, like, I look back and I say, I wish I would have done this differently. I wish I would have pursued this opportunity differently.

但总体而言，我对自己的成就感到自豪。直觉告诉我，大多数医生、牙医、高管甚至律师都会如此评价自己的人生。但若追问：你的职业让你快乐吗？人生幸福吗？

But when I look back, I'm pretty proud of what I have accomplished. And I'm willing to say, my gut tells me the majority of doctors, dentists, executives, maybe even lawyers would fall into that category of saying, look, when I look back, I'm content. But then if you said, are you happy with your career? Did your career make you happy? Is your life happy?

这就进入了灰色地带——你真的比那些职业成就不如你的人更快乐吗？有个容易被忽视的微妙点：金钱财富未必增加快乐，但能减少痛苦。这两者常被混淆。比如比较牙医与普通工薪阶层，前者并非拥有更多好日子。

Then it's like it's a big gray zone of are you actually happier than the other people who did not have as much career success as you did? One little quirk here that's easy to overlook is that it's not necessarily that money or wealth makes you happier, but it can make you less miserable. And this is it's easy to conflate those two. So I think if you were to say, you know, the dentist compared to the average typical median wage earner, does the dentist have more good days than the wage earner? No.

但他们的坏日子可能更少。差异或许不大，但经济窘迫带来的压力——担忧明年房贷、甚至孩子温饱问题——这种焦虑极其沉重。若能消除这些，虽不会让你每天笑醒，至少压力减轻许多。

Does he have fewer bad days than the wage earner? Probably. And maybe it's not that many fewer, but the level of stress and anxiety that having not enough money can bring to you of not knowing, are you gonna be able to make your mortgage payment for the next year or the extreme ends of, like, do you have enough money to feed your children properly? The stress that that brings is enormous. If you can just take that off the table, it's not that you're again, you're not gonna wake up grinning ear to ear, but you can wake up with less stress than you otherwise would.

这正是值得追求的生活品质：虽不增加快乐，但尽可能减少糟糕日子。若能实现这点就非常了不起。但人们常因发现金钱本身不能带来快乐而失望，因为我们总幻想‘如果有X美元，就能每天笑醒’。

Now that is a major benefit of quality of life to aspire to. To say, I'm not gonna be any happier, but I wanna remove as many bad days as possible. That's amazing. If you could achieve that, that's great. But people get disappointed when they realize that their money did not make them happier per se because it is so easy to imagine yourself if you say, oh, if only I had x dollars, I would wake up smiling every day.

这从未成真，也永远不会成真。

And it's never true. It has never been true, I think it will never be true.

我认为你指出了人类这种永不知足的特性，佛陀等智者早已深刻洞察到这一点。他们发现我们总陷入这样的叙事：等我下次升职就会快乐，等我在星巴克排到队首喝到咖啡就会快乐，等下次度假就会快乐——但我们永远得不到满足。欲望总在不断滋生。正如我常说的（这话其实是借用别人的，记不清是谁了），美国建国文献中推崇的'追求幸福'反而可能成为我们不幸福的根源。根据你的游历、研究和亲身经历，有哪些方法或观念能帮助我们应对这种人类与生俱来的贪得无厌？

I think you're pointing at this human capacity for insatiability that was very much on the mind of people like the Buddha, who observed that we could get into a story where we say, you know, I will be happy when I get this next promotion, when I finally, you know, get to the front of the line at Starbucks and get my caffeine fix, when I get this next vacation, and yet we're never done. There's always another thing to want. And as I often say, and I stole this from somebody, can't remember who, in this way, the pursuit of happiness that's enshrined in the founding documents of The United States can become the source of our unhappiness. What in your travels and study and personal experience, what practices or outlook can help us work around this very human tendency toward insatiability?

我想谈两点。首先分享个耐人寻味的轶事：人类历史上最富有的是约翰·D·洛克菲勒，按通胀调整后其巅峰资产近五千亿美元。但令人震惊的是，他终其一生没用过布洛芬，没涂过防晒霜，没注射过青霉素——他大半辈子连太阳镜都不存在。

There's two things I wanna bring up here. One, just a little anecdote I've always thought was fascinating is the richest person in human history is John D. Rockefeller. Adjusted for inflation, he was worth nearly half a trillion dollars at his peak. And something that's astounding about Rockefeller is that for his entire life, he never had Advil, he never had sunscreen, he never had penicillin, he never had for most of his adult life, sunglasses did not exist.

这些如今低收入群体都视为理所当然的基本物品，百年前坐拥五千亿身家的富豪却从未享受过。尤其在医疗等领域，如今美国低收入者的生活品质远超洛克菲勒、范德比尔特或摩根当年所能想象的。但这并非说当代低收入者就该比洛克菲勒更幸福——因为人们总是通过横向比较来衡量自身处境。

All these just bare bone basic necessities that even lower income people today completely take for granted. The guy who was worth half a trillion dollars a hundred years ago didn't have those luxuries. And there are many areas, particularly in something like medicine, where a low income American today lives so much better and grander than John D. Rockefeller or Cornelius Vanderbilt or JPMorgan could ever dream of. Now that is not to say that the average low income American should be happier or feel richer than John D.

当西方世界人人都能用上布洛芬和青霉素时，这些就变成了基础必需品。我们对生活价值的定义标准总在轻易改变。由于人们永远在和周围人比较，即便社会进步了——过去一两百年西方世界进步巨大——若进步幅度与期待涨幅都是5%，人们永远感觉不到生活改善。

Rockefeller. That's not how it works because people just measure their well-being relative to those around them. And since everyone by and large has access to Advil and penicillin in the Western world today, it becomes a complete baseline necessity. It is so easy to move the goalpost of what is valuable in life. And since you are always measuring yourself relative to other people, then a lot of times when you have progress in society, and we've had so much over the last hundred, two hundred years in the Western world, if progress is rising by 5% and people's expectations are also rising by 5%, you never feel like you are better off.

未来也将如此。完全可以想象五十年后我们的后代生活：医疗技术、日常科技、居住面积与质量乃至世界和平程度都远超当下。但同样可以想象，那时的他们并不会比现在的我们更快乐——甚至可能更不快乐，因为他们的期待值会以更大幅度攀升。

And it will be like that in the future too. You can totally imagine a future fifty years from now when our children are living lives that are astoundingly better than what you and I live right now. Their access to medical technology, regular technology, the size of their homes, the quality of their homes, maybe global peace, things like that are so much better than we have right now. And you can also imagine that in that world, they are no happier at all than you and I are. Or you can even imagine a world where they are less happy than you and I are because their expectations rise by so much more.

社交媒体就像给这个问题浇上了汽油。过去人们比较的对象不过是邻居同事，如今却变成了Instagram上精心包装的全球最美最富最'幸福'人群。这种扭曲的社会坐标定位，完全可能导致我们越富裕却越不幸福——因为期待值的增速永远快过收入增长。

Social media, I think, just puts, like, kerosene and a flame on this problem because it used to be that when you are comparing yourself to other people in society, the quote, unquote other people were your neighbors and your coworkers. That was your world. And now the quote, unquote other people in your life is an Instagram feed of curated of the most beautiful, wealthiest, happiest, seemingly happiest people in the world that you are constantly comparing yourself to. So the ability to gauge where you are in society, where you exist on the ladder of society is so skewed today. And that makes it in a way that you can imagine a world where we are growing more prosperous but becoming less happier because our expectations are rising faster than our income.

这是第一点。第二点更技术性：如何固定我们的目标标杆。大学时我在洛杉矶五星级酒店当泊车员，首次接触富豪阶层。看着他们开着法拉利、兰博基尼和劳斯莱斯——那是我从未见识过的世界。

So that's that's the first point to make. The second point I would make is, and this is a little bit more technical, but it has to do with getting the goalpost to stop moving. When I was in college, I was a valet at a five star hotel in Los Angeles, and that was my first experience with wealthy people. People would come in driving their Ferraris and their Lamborghinis and their Rolls Royces. Like, I just never seen that before.

每当有人开着那些豪车进来时，我都会目不转睛地盯着看。作为泊车员我虽然能开这些车，但每次它们出现时，我还是会忍不住感叹：哇，太棒了。直到有一天我突然意识到——当我对着豪车艳羡不已时，从未有一次我会看向司机并觉得‘这家伙真酷’。一次都没有。

And whenever someone would drive in one of those cars, I would oogle at them. And I got to drive them as the valet, but whenever they'd come in, I was just like, wow. This is amazing. But I realized one day, I had this I had this realization that never once when a car came in and I was ogling at the car, never once did I look at the driver and say, wow, that guy is cool. Never.

我的真实反应是把自己代入成司机，想着‘如果是我在开车，别人就会觉得我很酷’。讽刺的是，人人都想成为那个被羡慕的司机，但实际上没人在羡慕司机——他们都在幻想自己成为司机。这个悖论让我顿悟了游戏规则：人们总以为别人在关注自己，其实他们只关心自己。没人会像你自己那样在意你的物质。

What I would do is I would imagine myself as the driver, and I would say, if I was the driver, people would think I was cool. There's this irony that, like, everyone wants to be the driver because they want the admiration, but no one is admiring the driver. They're imagining themselves as the driver. It was like this paradox that was to me, it was just a revelation of what the game was, that everyone thinks that people are thinking about them, but they're not. They're thinking about themselves, and nobody is thinking about your stuff as much as you are.

豪宅、名车、华服——即便真有人羡慕这些，他们也是在幻想自己拥有时获得的赞美。一旦明白物质带来的社交收益被严重高估，你对它们的渴望就会大幅降低。我和别人一样喜欢好东西，但19岁当泊车员时以为那是人生巅峰的渴望早已消退，因为我发现物质带来的社交回报少得可怜。这是少数能真正遏制欲望膨胀的方法，但随着职业发展和社会新事物的涌现，保持这种认知非常困难。最后我想强调：明确‘多少钱才算够’至关重要。

If you have a nice house, a nice car, nice clothes, to the extent that people do admire that stuff, they imagine themselves having it and imagine the admiration that they themselves would get. So once you realize that it's so easy to overestimate the social benefit that you get from having nice stuff, I think it decreases your desire of having that stuff to a pretty considerable degree. And I like nice homes and nice cars as much as anyone else, but I think my desire for them is way suppressed than it was when I was the 19 year old valet just thinking that that was the peak of life because I realized that you get so little social benefit from that. That to me is just one of the only techniques that I've used to actually get the goalpost to stop moving, but it's a very difficult thing because as your career progresses and as society progresses with new technologies and new toys and whatnot, it's so easy to keep that goalpost from stop moving. One topic here that I think is important to wrap this up is it's really important to have some sense of what is enough money.

如果永远不确定‘足够’的标准，就永远得不到满足感。我说‘足够的钱’不是要放弃追求——我依然渴望更高净值和收入，关键是要让期望值的增速慢于收入增长。假设我收入年增10%（随便举例），而期望值只增长5%，两者差距就会转化为幸福感，而非永远平行的追逐。

If you never have some sense of what is enough, then it's never gonna feel like it's adequate. And when I say having enough money, I don't mean you have no aspiration for more. I aspire to have more money. I aspire to have a higher net worth and a higher income. That's true.

我确实这么认为。重要的是让期望值的增长速度慢于收入。比如我希望收入增长10%（随便举个例子），如果能让期望值只增长5%，两者之间的差距就会累积成幸福感，而不是让这两条线永远平行移动。

I I do. All that's important is that you get your expectations to grow slower than your income. So I'm I'm making this up. I hope my income grows 10%, just making up that number. If I can achieve that while my expectations grow, let's say, 5% per year, then the gap between those two is gonna accrue to my well-being versus just those lines moving in parallel over time.

你刚才说的对我特别有启发，因为‘多少才算够’这个问题困扰我多年。我不知道答案。什么是够？我的播客想继续增长，有合创的初创公司，出版书籍——我当然关心销量，你也一样。到底多少才够？我从未找到答案，但听你的意思，似乎真能明确说‘X数额就是够’。

It's such an interesting thing you just said, at least to me, because I've I've had the question posed to me before, what is enough? And I've struggled with it for years. What is enough? I don't know. What's enough?

我有个想持续发展的播客，与人合创的初创公司，出版的书籍——你知道的，我也关注销量数字。所以‘多少才算够’？我始终无法给出答案，但你的观点让我意识到：其实可以明确说‘达到X数额就足够了’。

I've got a podcast I'd like to keep growing. I've got a startup company I co founded. I've got books, and you know, like I like seeing the sales numbers on those, and as I'm sure you do. And so what is enough? And I've never really been able to arrive at an answer, But I guess what I'm hearing from you is you can actually come up with an answer that like, yes, x would be enough.

我对那个水平会感到满足。你知道的，我将拥有所需的一切。我认为我之所以抗拒达到那种状态，是因为我假设那将意味着相当程度的妥协。就像我朋友萨姆·哈里斯（你最近在他的播客上与他交谈过）说的那样，我就坐在这里，永远在你面前吃冰淇淋。

I would be content at that level. You know, I would have everything I need. I think the the reason why I've resisted getting there is because I've assumed that that would entail a nontrivial amount of resignation. I'm done, as my friend Sam Harris, who you recently talked to on Sam's podcast. As my friend Sam Harris has once said, I'll just sit here and eat ice cream in front of you forever.

这并非知足常乐的必然组成部分。只是那种汗流浃背的拼命程度可以明显降低。我理解得对吗？

That's not part and parcel of enoughness. It's just the sweatiness and the striving can go down by a measurable amount. Am I hearing you correctly?

是的。我认为你说得对。当人们想到‘足够’时，他们想到的是一个数字，比如说，假设他们说一旦我有500万就够了，我就会退出，像萨姆说的那样去吃冰淇淋。这是危险的，而且几乎不成立。真正能做到达到所谓的‘数字’后就退出并转身离开的人，即便有也极少。

Yeah. I think that's right. When people think of enough and they think of a number, let's say, making this up, they say, once I have 5,000,000, that's enough and I will quit and I will eat ice cream as Sam might say. That's dangerous, and that's never true. There are so few, if any, people who can actually do that, achieve their, quote, unquote, number, and then just quit and walk away.

这种情况几乎从未发生。对我来说——这听起来可能像敷衍的回答，但我认为这是最接近真相的——‘足够’不是一个数字，而是一种心态。这种心态就是：我的期望增长速度慢于我的收入渴望。你的期望增长得比你的抱负慢。

It's just it almost never happens. To me, and this kind of sounds like like like a BS answer, but I think it's as close as you can get, Having enough is not a number. It's a mindset. And the mindset, again, is my expectations are growing slower than my income aspirations. Your expectations grow slower than your aspirations.

这才是关键所在。所以，我想要更多钱。我并非觉得现在拥有的本质上不够，因为我不把它看作净资产或收入数字。只是保持低期望。而金融行业过分强调增加收入、增长净资产。

That's that's really what it comes down to. So, I want more money. I don't feel like I have enough today per se because I don't think of it as a net worth or an income figure. It's just keeping your expectations low. And there is so much emphasis in the financial industry on growing your income, growing your net worth.

全都集中在‘更多钱’的层面，却完全忽视了控制期望的那部分。但那个等式中的部分，如果你想真正利用财富过上更好生活（我不说更幸福，只是更好），可能是最重要的。我有个从小长大的朋友，他来自非洲马拉维。

It's all on the more money aspect, and there's also complete ignorance on the controlling your expectations side of it. But that part of the equation is maybe the most important part if you actually wanna use your wealth to live a better life. I'm not gonna say a happier life, but just a better life. I had this friend growing up. He grew up in Malawi, Africa.

那是世界上非常非常贫穷的地区。他出身于马拉维相对富裕的家庭，但食物保障仍不稳定，有时会挨饿。后来他移民美国，如今已50多岁的他说，至今每天三顿热饭摆在面前时，他仍会感到惊叹，心想‘哇’。因为他的成长经历让生活期望极低，以至于今天一个芝士汉堡都能给他带来震撼。说实话我羡慕这种能力——能从如此简单的事物中获得快乐，而他能做到这点，正是因为他的期望远低于当前处境。

Very, very poor part of the world. And he came from a a relatively prosperous family in Malawi, but still food security was not always there. And there were times when there was not enough food. And then he immigrated to America, and he said to this day he's over 50 years old now, but to this day, whenever he has a hot meal in front of him, three times a day now, he's like in astonishment, and he has a sense of wow, Because I think his expectations of life are so low given his upbringing that even something like a cheeseburger today just gives him the sense of astonishment. I honestly envy that, that you can gain joy out of something so simple, and the reason he's done that is because his expectations are so much lower than his circumstances are today.

我认为这是我们其他人生活中可以追求的一个极端例子，是的，我想增加收入，但我也想花同样多的努力保持低期望，这样无论收入增长到多高，我都能对所获得的任何收入感到惊讶。

I think that's an extreme example of what us other people can strive for in life is, yes, I wanna grow my income, but I wanna spend as much effort keeping my expectations low so that I remain astonished with whatever income I earn no matter how high it grows.

那么你见过哪些策略可以帮助人们管理他们的期望？

So what strategies have you seen that would help people manage their expectation?

我认为对大多数人来说，储蓄率就是你的自尊心与收入之间的差距。如果你能抑制那种想向别人炫耀你有多少钱的欲望，那种想展示孔雀羽毛般的虚荣心，比如看看我的车，看看我的珠宝，看看我有多少。如果你能抑制这些，那就是在抑制你的自尊心，而自尊心与收入之间的差距就是你储蓄的部分。所以对我来说，这是我真正解决这个问题的唯一方法之一。另一个方法，可能不那么有力，但对我来说，是对历史和今天世界各地大多数人生活方式的深刻理解，以及历史上美国和其他地方的人们是如何生活的。

I think your savings rate is, for most people, is the gap between your ego and your income. And if you can suppress the ego of your desire to show people how much money you have and your desire to, like, flaunt your peacock feathers and say, look at my car, look at my jewelry, look how much. If you can suppress that, then that is suppressing your ego, and the gap between your ego and your income is what you save. And so that, to me, is one of the only ways that I've really gotten around this. I think the other is, and this is maybe less powerful, but for me, a deep appreciation for history and how most people today among around the rest of the world live and historically how everyone else lived in The United States and other places.

如果你对历史有深刻的理解，你就会意识到这个时代是多么惊人，我们绝大多数人生活得多么好。我认为说美国最贫穷的10%的人比美国历史上最富有的10%的人生活得更好并不夸张。我不知道具体是哪一年。可能是19世纪末，大概是这样。如果我更深入地思考，可能会得出不同的年份，但大概就是那样。

If you have a deep appreciation for history, you realize how astonishing this moment of time is and how good the huge majority of us live. I don't think it's it's an exaggeration to say the poorest 10% of Americans live a better life than the richest 10% of Americans did. I I don't know what year that would be. Late eighteen hundred, something like that. If if I thought deeper, I might come up with a different year, but it's probably something like that.

这真是令人惊讶。对我来说，这太神奇了。这对我来说属于控制你的期望，让你对自己的境况持续感到惊讶，无论它们可能是什么。

And that's astonishing. That that to me is is amazing. And that to me is falls in the category of keeping your expectations in check a way that keeps you continuously amazed with your circumstances regardless of what they might be.

富有和有钱有什么区别？这是你在书中提到的内容。你能解释一下吗？

What is the difference between wealthy and rich? This is something you talk about in your book. Can you explain that?

我在书中写道，这些定义是我编的。所以如果你想对这些定义吹毛求疵，我完全没问题。但对我来说，有钱意味着你有足够的钱支付你想要的每月生活方式账单。你可以支付车贷，可以支付房贷。

And I I write in the book that I made these definitions up. So if you wanna quibble if if you wanna quibble with these definitions, I I'm fine with that. But to me, it was rich is it means you have enough money to pay your monthly bills with the lifestyle that you wanna live. You can make your car payments. You can make your mortgage payments.

你有足够的钱每月或每年购买好东西，这就是所谓的富有。而财富几乎与之相反。财富是你尚未花掉的钱，是那些你没有花在衣服、汽车、度假或房子上的钱。

You have enough money to buy nice stuff on a monthly or an annual basis. That's what rich is. Wealthy is almost the opposite. Wealth is the money that you have not spent. It's the money that you did not spend on clothes or cars or vacations or homes.

这些钱是被存起来、投资且未花费的，是你特意留存的。它可能是你银行账户里的钱，或是经纪账户里的资金，无论如何，按照定义就是你没有花掉的钱。这一点非常重要，因为大体上，我能看出你的富裕程度——我能看到你开的车。

It's money that is saved up and invested and unspent that you're just setting aside. It's your money in the bank, the money in the brokerage account, whatever it might be. Money you did not spend by definition. And this is really important because by and large, I can see your richness. I can see the car you drive.

我能看到你住的房子，能看见你穿的衣服。但我看不到你的银行账户，完全不知道你经纪账户里有多少钱，毫无线索。

I can see the home you live in. I can see the clothes that you wear. I cannot see your bank account. I have no idea what's in your brokerage account. No clue.

那里可能是零美元，也可能是一亿美元，我无从得知。我们对这部分完全视而不见。这很重要，因为它会让人对他人有多富有产生错误认知，并塑造虚假的榜样形象。

It might be $0. It might be a $100,000,000. I have no idea. We're completely blind to it. And this is important because it gives a false sense of how rich or wealthy people are, and it gives a false sense of role models.

这是我在当泊车员时的另一个观察：看到那些开着法拉利之类豪车的人，我会立刻觉得'天啊，这家伙太成功了'。但结识后才发现，很多人其实并不那么成功。

This is another observation from when I was a valet. Of these people who had come in in a Ferrari or whatnot, I would immediately think, god, this guy is so successful. Look at this guy. He's driving a $300,000 car, and I get to know them. And a lot of them were actually not that successful.

他们只是些职业成就平平的人，却把三分之二的收入花在法拉利租赁上。这种'假装成功直到真正成功'的心态在社会中非常普遍，正是因为人们能看见你的奢侈消费，却看不见你的实际财富。于是问题来了：不打算花掉的财富，它的意义何在？

They were, like, mediocre career successes who spent two thirds of their income on a Ferrari lease payment. And those I think that fake it till you make it sense is so pervasive among society. And it's because you can see your richness, you cannot see your wealth. And so then the question is, what is the purpose of wealth, unspent money? What's the purpose of it if you're not gonna spend it?

这对很多人来说像是个陷阱问题——'如果不花钱，我要钱干什么？'但在我看来，这回归到金钱支付的最高红利：它赋予你对时间和生活的掌控权与自主权。能够随心选择居住地、工作方式、雇主以及退休时间，这些远比物质享受更能提升生活质量。这就是我认为富裕与富足的本质区别。

And that that seems like a gotcha question for a lot of people. Like, why why would I want money if I'm not gonna spend it? And to me, it gets back to what I think is the highest dividend that money pays, which is just giving you control and autonomy over your time and independence in your life. The ability to live where you want, work where you want, work for whom you want, retire when you want, that is gonna go so much farther in your quality of life than your nice things will. So that that to me is the difference between rich and wealthy.

接下来，摩根将探讨我们的生活经历如何塑造我们对金钱的看法，为何合理比理性更重要，以及留出容错空间的至关重要性。贯穿整个对话的一个主题是，金钱对人类而言是如此复杂的问题。在你的书中，当你探讨我们为何如此时，你提出一个观点：没有人是疯狂的。这指的是什么？

Up next, Morgan discusses how our lived experiences shape our perspective on money, why reasonable is better than rational, and the crucial importance of having room for error. A theme that's been coursing through this whole conversation is that money is such a complex issue for human beings. And in your book, as you're talking about or exploring why we're like this, you make the point that nobody's crazy. What is that about?

我指出人们可能在金钱或其他生活领域做出看似疯狂的行为，但每个人在当下做出的财务决策都符合他们当时的需求。我们所有人对世界的认知都植根于个人经历。由于这些经历不仅大多超出我们控制范围，而且人与人之间差异巨大，某些在你或他人看来合理的财务决策，在我眼中可能显得荒谬。书中我举例说，在美国，绝大多数即开型彩票是由最贫困的10%美国人购买的。这些连温饱都成问题的人，却是彩票消费的主力军。

I I make this point that people do crazy things with their money and in other periods of life, but every decision that people make with their money checks the boxes that they need to check-in that moment of time. And all of us in our view of the world, how we think the world works, we anchor to the experiences that we have had in life. And since all of those experiences are not only mostly out of our control, but they vary wildly from person to person, there are decisions that you or someone else might make with your money that looks crazy to me, but it makes perfect sense to you. I use this example of in the book where in The United States, the majority of lottery tickets, like scratcher tickets, are purchased by the poorest decile of Americans. The poorest Americans, many of whom have a hard time feeding themselves, spend the most money by far on lottery tickets.

像我或你这样的人很容易对此评头论足：这些人疯了。他们是白痴、蠢货。连孩子都养不活还买彩票。

And it's so easy for someone like me or you to look at that and say, people are crazy. Those people are idiots. They're morons. You can't even feed your children. You're buying scratcher tickets.

这是在干什么？但几年前有位朋友向我解释过这种现象。他从小在赤贫中长大，如今已是事业有成的理财顾问。他回忆童年时冰箱空空如也，单身母亲兜里只剩3美元。他说：3美元根本填不饱肚子，但能买三张即开彩票——那可能是填满冰箱的唯一希望。

What are you doing? But I I there's a friend of mine who kind of explained this to me a couple years ago. He grew up in abject poverty, and now he is a financial adviser doing quite well. But he's he said he remembers times when he was a kid where his refrigerator was empty and his single mother had $3 to her name. And he said, look, $3 is not gonna fill the refrigerator in any meaningful way, but $3 will buy you three scratchers tickets that have the potential of filling the refrigerator.

在这种思维模式下，这些人认为彩票是改变命运的唯一机会就说得通了。当你感到职业晋升无望，收入难以提高，深陷贫困循环时，彩票就成了人生仅存的希望。虽然我们仍可争论这是否理性，但对那些人而言完全合理。而你我可能做的许多事——包括我的理财方式——都源于我的出生环境、青年时期的特定经历，这些塑造了我终生的金钱观。多年前我采访过诺贝尔经济学奖得主、心理学家丹尼尔·卡尼曼博士。

And in that mindset, it actually made sense for these people to be like, look, this lottery ticket is my only shot at life of stepping up in the world, of getting displaced. When you don't feel like you have the opportunity to progress in your career, to earn a higher income, and you are stuck in this abject poverty kind of cycle, the lottery ticket is like your only sense of hope in life. And in that mindset, you can still quibble with whether it's a rational thing to do, but for those people, it made perfect sense even if for me and you, we look at it and say, people are crazy. And there are so many other things like that that you and I might do, things that I do with my money that are just a product of where and when I was born and what I happened to experience in my youth and my early adult years that set my path of how I think about money for the rest of my life. Years ago, I interviewed doctor Daniel Kahneman, who is a psychologist who won the Nobel Prize in economics.

他在采访中提到自己是生平所见最悲观的人，对人类前景的预期无人比他更消极。我说：这太令人着迷了，是因为你深谙人类思维误区吗？

And he mentioned at one point in the interview that he's the biggest pessimist he's ever met in life. He said, like, no one is more pessimistic on the outlook of humanity than he is. And I said, wow. That's that's really fascinating. Is that because you have all this insight into, like, how we think and how our thinking goes astray?

他回答不是，随后讲述在纳粹占领下的法国度过的童年，自幼目睹人性之恶如何影响了他对风险和人类本质的终生认知。关键在于，我可以尝试共情，了解犹太家庭在纳粹铁蹄下的处境，但我没有他那样的情感创伤，也没有我那位买彩票的贫困朋友的心理烙印。没有什么比亲身经历更具说服力。正因每个人的直接体验如此不同，我们对'正确理财方式'的判断才会天差地别——某些人眼中的疯狂，对另一些人却合情合理。

And he said, no. And he started talking about how he grew up as a child in Nazi occupied France and how he saw from an early age how evil people can be and how that experience impacted how he thought about risk and humanity for the rest of his life. And the important thing is, like, I can try to empathize with that, and I can try to learn about what it might be like to be a Jewish family in Nazi occupied France, but I don't have the emotional scar tissue that he did or that my friend who grew up in abject poverty did with his mom buying the lottery tickets. Nothing is more persuasive than what you've experienced firsthand. And because everyone's firsthand experiences are so different, we have all these different views over what's the right thing to do with money that seems crazy to one person but makes perfect sense to another.

我认为大多数关于财务的争论——比如该存多少钱、如何花钱、如何投资——这些分歧实际上并非真正的争论。而是不同风险承受能力、不同时间视野和不同世界观的人在自说自话。生活中很少有其他领域像这样，比如健康营养之类的事情更具客观性，什么对你好什么不好。虽然并非绝对黑白分明，但比金钱问题明确得多。某人建议你做XYZ，对一个人可能是金玉良言，对另一个人却可能是灾难性建议——即使两人年龄收入都相同。

And I think most financial debates in terms of how much money should you save, how should you spend your money, how should you invest your money, most of those debates and disagreements are not actually arguments. It's people with different risk tolerances and different time horizons and a different view of the world talking over one another. And there aren't many other areas in life where that's the case because other areas like maybe health and nutrition, things like that, are more objective of this is good for you and this is not. I mean, it's it's not quite that black and white, but it's more than with money. Someone who says you should do x, y, and z might be good advice for one person and disastrous advice for another even if the other person is same age, income, etcetera.

你在提问开头就暗示了这点：金钱没有非黑即白的答案，一切都是不同程度的灰色。我们总把金钱当作数学或物理来思考，而数学对所有人只有一个正确答案。

You alluded to this at the beginning of the question. There's no black and white with money. Everything is just some various shade of gray. And we wanna think of money, and money is taught like it's math or physics. And in math, there's one right answer for everybody.

无论你是谁、来自哪里、出身如何，2加2对所有人都等于4。但金钱完全不同，人们永远会对什么是最佳选择得出不同结论。这使得金钱成为非常难教授的话题，因为没有标准答案可教，每个人都得自己摸索明白。

Doesn't matter who you are or where you're from or where you're born, two plus two equals four for everybody. And money is not like that at all. It's people are always gonna come to different conclusions about what is the best thing to do for them, And it leads it so it's a very difficult topic to teach because there is not one answer to teach. You just have to kinda figure it out for yourself.

你说没有正确答案，我也认同这点。但你确实有些普遍性的最佳实践思考。我想就此深入探讨些更具指导性的建议。你在管理金钱的心理层面有个重要建议是关于储蓄的，能详细说说吗？

So you say there's no right answer, and I I believe that to be true. And yet you do have some thoughts on best practices generally. And so I'd like to kind of move into that zone, little bit more of a prescriptive zone. One of your big recommendations when it comes to managing our money as it pertains to our psychology is to save money. Can you say more about that?

这建议显而易见到让人疑惑怎么会有人反对或觉得有趣？但关键在于，大多数人只为他们能预见的风险和开支储蓄。比如想着'一年后要换车'、'三年内买房'、'孩子十年后上大学'之类。这很好，但问题在于——无论对经济还是个人，人生最大风险永远来自意料之外。

It's such an obvious piece of advice. How could anyone disagree with that or think that that is something that's to think that that's interesting? What I think is that most people, they're saving money, only save for risks and expenses that they can envision. So when they save money, they're like, oh, in one year, I'm gonna need a new car. I'm gonna I wanna buy a house in the next three years.

著名财务顾问卡尔·理查兹说过：'风险就是你自以为考虑周全后剩下的那部分。'可操作的启示是：若你只为能预见的风险存钱，十次里有十次会遭遇意外。这在经济层面同样成立——每年最大的经济风险都是事前无人谈及甚至无法想象的，新冠疫情就是典型例子。

My kids are going to college in ten years, whatever it might be, and they save for those. That's all that's great, and that's fine. The thing is that it's always true for the economy and for individuals that the biggest risk you're gonna face in life is something that you don't see coming. The biggest risk is always what no one is talking about and no one sees coming. There's a great financial adviser named Carl Richards who says risk is what is left over when you think you've thought of everything.

这就是风险的本质。从个人层面看，如果你只为你能够预见到的风险和开支存钱，那么你百分之百会错过那些意想不到的情况。这在经济层面总是如此——每一年最大的经济风险都是那些事前无人讨论、甚至无法预料的事件，新冠疫情显然就是其中之一。

That's what risk is. And the the actionable takeaway to that is that if you are only saving money for risks and expenses that you can envision, you are gonna miss the surprise 10 times out of 10. And it's always the case at the economy level. Every single year, the biggest economic risk is something that no one was talking about or could even contemplate before it happened. COVID was obviously one of those.

俄罗斯、乌克兰就属于这类情况。雷曼兄弟破产引发2011年2月的金融危机，珍珠港事件。所有重大经济风险在爆发前都是无法预见的，历来如此。因此，唯有保持略高于心理安全线的储蓄水平，才能在这样的世界中游刃有余。

Russia, Ukraine fits in that category. Lehman Brothers going bankrupt that started the financial crisis in 02/2011, Pearl Harbor. All of the major economic risks were unforeseeable until the moment that they arrived. It will always be like that. So the only way that you can kind of navigate that world is to have a level of savings that feels like it's a little bit too much.

当你拥有这样一笔储蓄时——你会觉得'这笔钱闲置着，既不是购车基金，也不是购房款或教育金'。

Whenever you have a level of savings that where you said, like, where you say, oh, I have all this money set aside. I don't know what I'm gonna do for it. It's not for the car. It's not for the house. It's not for education.

这笔钱没有特定用途，这时你才真正具备应对未知风险的能力。个人层面的突发状况通常是失业、离婚或医疗急救。我刚才提到的这三件事，人一生中至少遭遇其一的概率接近百分之百。但几乎没人会预见到这些事，也不会提前规划，可它们偏偏就会发生在绝大多数人身上。

I have this money sitting aside that has it's not earmarked for anything. That's when you know you at least have a fighting chance at surviving the surprise that you cannot even envision. And at the personal level, the surprises are often getting laid off, divorce, medical emergency. Those three things that I just mentioned, the odds that people will go through their entire life without experiencing at least one of those things round to zero. And virtually no one expects those things to occur or plans on those things occurring preemptively, but they happen to virtually everyone.

这三件事至少会遭遇一件，甚至全部。因此我认为，为储蓄本身而储蓄，而非为特定目标储蓄，这个理念至关重要。

One of those three things, if not all of those three things. And so that's why I think just the idea of saving for saving sake rather than saving for a specific event is so vital.

可以想象会有听众说：道理没错，但我父母不像你们两位是医生，所以现在只能月光度日。

I can imagine there'll be some people listening who would say, yeah, that sounds right. And yet I'm living paycheck to paycheck because my parents, unlike you two guys, were not doctors.

确实如此。每个人的经济状况不同，高收入者自然能存更多钱，历来如此。但若将每元储蓄视为未来生活的自主权，每元债务则是未来被他人掌控的部分——用这样简单的视角来看，任何数额的储蓄都将改变你的未来。

Yeah. That's right. I mean, it's always a different spectrum for everyone, of course, and people with higher incomes will be able to save more. Obvious will always be the case, has always been the case. I think if you just view it as every dollar of savings that you have is a piece of your future that you own, and on the contrary, every dollar of debt that you have is a piece of your future that somebody else owns, when you view it as in a simple term like that, then any amount that you can save is gonna make a difference to you in the future.

当然并非所有人都如此（我不想以偏概全，因为许多人即便过着极其简朴的生活，拼命工作仍难逃月光）。但社会上还有另一类人——我们之前讨论过——他们月光是因为欲望超出收入。对这些人而言，解决方案不是增加收入，而是如何克制野心与虚荣心。

And for a lot of people, not everyone, I don't wanna paint a broad brush here at all because there are lot of people in society who work as hard as they can, grind to the bone, and are always gonna be paycheck to paycheck even if they're living a very, very modest humble lifestyle. There is another group in society, though. We had talked about this earlier. They are living paycheck to paycheck because their aspirations exceed their income. And then the solution for those people is not how can I raise my income, it's how can I suppress my ambitions and my ego?

并非所有人都如此。我不想说这是整个社会的通病，但确实有一部分人面临这种情况——他们的财务问题在于：欲望以8%的速度增长，而收入仅增长5%或类似比例。对这些人的解决方案就是如此。这并非易事，没人愿意听这种建议。

That is not everyone. I don't wanna say that that's everyone's society, but there's a group of whom for that's definitely the case, that their financial problem is that their aspirations are growing 8% and their income's growing 5% or whatever it might be. And that's the solution for those people. That's not an easy solution. Nobody wants to hear that.

就像大多数人去看医生时，医生通常会给出的正确答案是：你需要改善饮食、加强锻炼、保证睡眠。但没人想听这个，他们只想要特效药。人们会说：给我一颗能解决所有问题的药丸就行。

Everyone it's just like when most people go to the doctor. The right answer that the doctor is gonna give you a lot of the time is you need to eat better and exercise more and sleep more. But nobody wants to hear that answer. What they want is the pill. They just say, give me the pill that's gonna solve all my problems.

财务领域也极其相似——几乎所有财务问题的解决方案都是：多存钱，更有耐心。这就是万能解药，但没人愿意听。不不不，没人想听这个。他们想要的是魔法药丸，比如：应该买哪些能让我下个月暴富的仙股？但现实根本不会这样运作。

And it's very similar in finance, where the solution to almost every financial problem is save more money and be more patient. That's the solution to everything, but nobody wants to hear that. No no no one wants to hear that. They they want the magic pill, and the magic pill is like, penny stock should I buy that are gonna make me rich in the next month? It just doesn't work that way.

真相永远是：解决方案需要某种形式的牺牲，就像医学治疗，也像财务管理。

It's always gonna be that the the solutions require some form of sacrifice, just like medicine and just just like finance as well.

继续这个建议性话题，你说过'合理优于绝对理性'。

Staying on the prescriptive tip here, you say reasonable is better than rational.

核心在于人不是机器，不是电子表格，也不仅仅是计算器。但金融教育常常把人当作这些来教——尤其在学术层面，总假设人们是理性决策者，会精确权衡成本收益后得出最优结论。

It's just this idea that people are not machines. They're not spreadsheets. They're not just calculators. But finance is often taught like they are. It's taught in this way, particularly at the academic level, that people are rational decision makers who rationally weigh costs and benefits and come to the best conclusion.

但在现实世界，这完全不符合实际。人们不会在电子表格里做财务决策，而是在晚餐桌上，或在充满各种情绪、矛盾信号、他人不同目标的办公室里做决定。所以我们不该假装自己总能做出完全理性的财务选择。

And that's just in the real world. It's just not how it works at all. People do not make financial decisions on a spreadsheet. They make them at the dinner table or in their office at work where they're surrounded by all these other emotions and conflicting signals and different goals that other people have that fall into this equation. And so we should not pretend like we can always make rational financial decisions.

这根本不是人们行事的方式。我认为，如果我们能在财务决策上力求合理，那就是我们能做到的最好程度。有些我用钱的方式，别人也有他们的方式，你可能无法解释，或者用电子表格衡量时会发现明显缺陷，但对当事人而言那可能是最佳选择。如果这能让他们夜寐安稳或增添些许快乐，那就是正确的选择。投资领域有个广为人知的现象叫'本土偏好'——大体上，美国人只买美股，德国人只持德股，日本人只投日股，诸如此类。

It's just not how people work. I think if we can aim to just be reasonable with our financial decisions, that's the best that we can do. And there are things that I do with my money that other do with people do with their money that you can either not explain or you can actively point out the flaw when you measure it on a spreadsheet, but it might be the absolute best thing to do for them. If it's helping them sleep at night or making them a little bit happier, then it's the right thing to do. In investing, there's a very well known thing called the home bias in investing where, by and large, Americans only own American stocks, and Germans only own German stocks, Japanese only own Japanese stocks, etcetera.

这种现象在全球普遍存在，学术金融界视其为一种偏见和缺陷。认为地理位置最近的股票就是最佳投资选择，这完全不合逻辑，根本谈不上理性。但若因为熟悉这些公司，让你更愿意将毕生积蓄投入其中，这虽不理性却非常合理。

By and large, this is true all over the world, and it is viewed in academic finance as a bias, a flaw. It's not rational to think the best stocks you should own are the ones that are located closest to your house. That doesn't make any sense. That's not rational at all, but it's very reasonable to do. If taking the leap of faith of investing your life savings in these companies is a little bit more palatable, if you are familiar with the companies, that's very reasonable, even if it's not rational.

几年前当房贷利率仅2.5%到3%时提前还清贷款，可能是最不理性的财务决策。但对那些因此获得安稳睡眠、感受到独立自主的人来说，这又极其合理——即便电子表格无法证明其价值。生活中这类事情比比皆是，每个人都有自己羞于启齿的财务怪癖。只要允许自己承认'我不是理性机器'...

Paying off your mortgage a couple years ago when people could get a mortgage for two and a half or 3% is, like, the least rational financial decision you could have ever made, but it's a very reasonable decision for those who did it if it helped you sleep better at night, if it gave you a little bit sense of independence and autonomy. A very reasonable thing to do even if you can't explain that on a spreadsheet. There are a lot of those things in life, and I think everyone has this. Everyone hides their financial skeletons, but everyone has a little quirk that they do with their money that they're probably a little bit ashamed of. And if you just give yourself permission to say, I'm not a rational person.

我是个受情感和荷尔蒙支配的凡人，生活中各种动态因素同时交织。若能勉强做到合理，已是我能期待的最好状态。

I'm an emotional, hormonal human who has all these dynamics in life that I'm trying to navigate at once. And if I can just be kind of reasonable, it's the best I can hope for.

这个观点很棒。我们节目常讨论'足够好'的概念，与此不谋而合。你还提到要崇尚'容错空间'。

I like that. We talk a lot on the show about good enough, and this seems to rhyme quite nicely. Another thing you talk about is worshiping room for error.

这个概念的核心在于：每个财务计划最重要的部分，就是为计划失败做准备。这回到我们早先讨论的风险本质——当你以为考虑周全时，真正的风险恰恰藏在剩余部分。我敢断言，未来一年乃至五年最大的经济风险，绝对是今天我们无人谈及的事物。应对之道唯有在预算、预测和心态上预留容错空间，让可能发生的状况与你生存所需之间的缓冲带尽可能宽广。

It's this idea that I think the most important part of every financial plan is planning on that plan, not going according to plan. It gets back to what we talked about earlier, where risk is what is left over when you think you've thought of everything and how that will always be the case. I can guarantee you that the biggest economic risk over the next year and next five years is something that none of us are talking about today. And I can say that because it's always been the case. The only way to get around that is to have room for error in your budgets, in your forecasts, in your mindsets, where the gap between what might happen and what you need to have happen to do okay is as wide as it can possibly be.

即便像我这样密切追踪经济的人，也万万没想到病毒会让全球经济停摆12到18个月，并在两年半后余波未平。疫情初期数据显示，美国餐馆平均仅备有维持12天的现金流，却遭遇长达半年的停业——这种时刻容错空间就是救命稻草。当然当时政府大规模救助延缓了很多危机。

Never in a million years did I, as someone who follows the economy very closely, never did I expect a virus to shut down the global economy for twelve or eighteen months and still be lingering two and a half years later. Virtually no one did. And I I mean, there was a stat from early in the days of COVID where the average American restaurant had enough cash on hand to survive for twelve days, and then the economy shut down for six months or whatever. That's where room for error is gonna is gonna save your life. Now in those situations, there were so many government bailouts that it forestalled a lot of that.

但对许多人而言，我们在新冠疫情初期就目睹了这一点——意识到个人和企业都生活在破产的边缘。即便是世界最微小的波动，更不用说像疫情这样的重大冲击，都能将他们推下深渊。因此我认为，在财务上保持个人生活与职业潜在结果之间的缓冲空间极其宝贵，但我们往往忽视这点，因为人们不愿留出容错空间。他们追求效率，渴望榨取每一分机会，尽可能削减冗余。

But for a lot of people, we saw this in the early days of COVID where you realize that individuals and businesses live on the razor's edge of insolvency. And the tiniest little bump in the world, to say nothing of a major bump like a pandemic, throws them over the edge. I So think just having a gap between your potential outcomes in life personally and your career is so valuable in finance, but we overlook it because people don't want room for error. They want efficiency. They wanna wring out as much opportunity as they possibly can and have as little fat to cut as they can.

许多企业正是如此，它们一味追求高效、高效、再高效。当疫情来袭供应链断裂时，它们就陷入绝境。没有容错余地，无力承担风险与损失。或许这才是本质——多数人想规避人生风险，但这根本不可能。

A lot of businesses were like this, where there was such a push to be efficient, efficient, efficient. And then COVID hit and supply chains broke and they were screwed. They had no room for error, no ability to absorb risk and damage. And maybe that's really what it is. Most people want to avoid risk in life, but it's just not possible.

我认为，若能承受可控损失并接纳风险，而非妄想完全规避，这便是我们在生活中能做到的极致。

I think if you can just absorb manageable damage and be able to absorb risk rather than assume that you can avoid it, that's the best that we can do in life.

最近我有段经历：妻子和我讨论财务重点时，我们有些诱人目标。我能感觉到自己又滑向那种心态——等实现下个目标后，我们就做些消费，再完成几件事就圆满了。结果家里突然出现需要巨额维修的意外财务打击。起初我俩都慌了神。

I had an experience recently where my wife and I had been talking about some financial priorities, and we had some appealing goals. And I could feel myself a little bit slipping back into, yeah, when we get these next things like this, there were some a little bit of spending we're gonna do. We get these next couple of things, you know, then we'll be good. And then actually, we had a big surprise, negative surprise financially, something that needs fixing at our house that's gonna it's probably gonna be very expensive. And at first, both of us were kinda freaking out.

随后我们有两种反应与当前讨论相关：一是想到身边亲友正经受严重健康危机，这让我们看清轻重。正如我父亲常说，有些是真正难题，有些则是金钱能解决的问题。这成了我们的信条。二是这让我重新思考'知足'的边界——

Then we had two responses that I I think kind of are germane to this discussion. One was, we know a couple of people close to us who are having really serious health crises right now, and that really just put things in perspective. As my father used to say, there are problems, and then there are things money can solve. And so that's become a little mantra for us. And then the other thing is, and this throws me back into the territory of enoughness.

我醒悟到本该显而易见的道理（任何旁观者都清楚）：我现在完全安好，是否实现那些目标根本不重要。结合你关于容错空间的讨论，这些对你有共鸣吗？

I realized what what should be obvious to me all along, it would be obvious to any outside observer. I'm totally fine right now. It doesn't matter whether I get these other things. And so I bring this up in light of your discussion about room for error. Does any of that land for you?

是的。我和妻子也有类似经历。人生中两次预期的横财都落空，而在这两笔钱真正到账前，我已提前适应了拥有它们的心理状态。所以即便真得到，也不会带来任何快乐。

Yeah. I think I've my wife and I have dealt with similar things too. I've had I've had two distinct experiences in my life where windfalls that I thought were coming did not come. And in all of the situations, before the windfall actually hit my bank account, I adjusted to it being there. So it's like, if I like, so it's like, if I got it, it would not have given me any pleasure.

我已经调整好心态，预见到它的到来，结果它却未至，这种感觉就像从悬崖跌落。这确实很难承受。当然，未能获得意外之财与遭遇医疗危机截然不同。但生活中常有这样的情形：你展望未来时，总以为生活会按x、y、z的轨迹发展，当意识到必须适应另一种结局时，那种调整过程令人精疲力竭。当代伟大作家迈克尔·刘易斯对此有过深刻阐述。

I already adjusted and assumed it was coming, and then it did not come, and it was like falling off a cliff. And that's a tough thing. Now not gaining a windfall is very different than having a medical crisis, let's say. But there's all these situations where you assume when you look out at your life, you assume that your life is gonna be x, y, and z, and then when you realize that you have to adjust to a different outcome, it's exhausting. Michael Lewis, one of the great authors of our time this is well known.

这是公开消息。去年他遭遇了可怕的家庭悲剧——十几岁的女儿在车祸中丧生。此后他做过几期播客，我在此转述大意（不想曲解他的原话）：他和妻子及家人经历的心理重建过程令人心力交瘁，无论是精神上还是身体上都疲惫不堪。

This is public. He had a horrific family tragedy last year. His teenage daughter was killed in a car accident, and he's done a couple of podcasts since that. And I'm paraphrasing here. I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but he said, you know, the recovery that he and his wife and his family went through after that was exhausting, mentally, just physically exhausting.

他提到一个重要原因：每个人大脑中都存有对未来五到二十年生活的预期影像。当你经历像他这样的至痛时——能想象到的最可怕之事——大脑不得不重写这部人生电影。在没有女儿的未来图景中重新构建生活，消耗了他巨大的能量。我认为这个观察极为深刻，虽然我们在遭遇财务危机时感受的强度远不能相提并论。

And he said one of the reasons he thinks that is is because he had and everyone has in their brain, this movie in their brain of what their life is gonna be like for the next five, ten, twenty years. You have this this vision of what it's gonna look like. And when you experience something like he did, the most terrific thing you can imagine, his brain had to rewrite the movie. And it took so much energy to rewrite what his life was gonna be like in the future without his daughter. And I thought that was a really profound observation, and I think at a much lower, less meaningful level when we have a financial crisis.

重申一次，这与丧子之痛有着天壤之别。但相似之处在于：你不得不重写脑海中预设的人生剧本。就像你们夫妻曾对净资产有明确预期，当房屋突发状况迫使你们重新规划未来资产时，这种调整过程同样令人疲惫——每次适应新境况，都是在耗尽心力重绘余生蓝图。

Again, so much different than losing a child night and day. But it's a very similar thing where you have to rewrite the movie in your head of what you thought life was gonna like. And maybe that was true for your wife and yourself when you had this idea of what your net worth was, and then something happened to your house, and now you have to rewrite the movie of what your net worth is gonna be going forward. So whenever you have to, like, adjust to different circumstances, it's just this exhausting process of trying to rewrite what the rest of your life is gonna look like.

这个洞察力非常有力。经历这个过程后回归'知足'的理念让我倍感安慰。我们完全没问题，甚至比'完全没问题'更好。重新认清这个显而易见的事实令人心安。

I think it's a powerful observation, and I think it was very comforting to go through this process and land back on this idea of enoughness. Like, we're totally fine. We're totally fine. We're we're better than totally fine. And just to wake up to wake back up to the obvious was comforting.

既然谈到知足理念——最近与朋友晚餐时我们讨论到：如果不再被积累、获取、成就所驱动（当然我们早先确认过知足不等于丧失抱负），那么驱动力是什么？燃料从何而来？

Let me ask you, though, since we're back on enoughness. I was having dinner with a friend recently and this came up and we're talking about if you're not motivated or if you're not as motivated by accumulation, acquisition, achievement, If you're and I know we established earlier that enoughness does not mean you you have no more ambition. But if you're not as motivated by that, what are you motivated by? What is the fuel?

我想起常引用的一个研究：老年病学家卡尔·皮勒默十余年前所著《生活的30堂课》中，他访谈了千名九十多岁甚至百岁的美国长者，询问'你们能教我哪些人生经验？'这些社会最年长的智者给出的答案令人深思。

I guess there's a study that I I love and I've I've cited often. It's from a gerontologist named Carl Pillimer who wrote a book a decade or more ago called 30 Lessons for Living. And what he did is he interviewed a thousand elderly Americans, most of whom were in their nineties or early hundreds, the the oldest sliver of society. And he just said, what can you teach me about life? You you you have the most experience.

你们是生活中的黑带高手。告诉我你们的经历。他的书里有一章讲金钱，他说在他采访的上千人中，没有一个人——一个都没有——在回顾人生时说，我希望当初赚更多钱。我希望当初更拼命工作。我希望比邻居积累更多财富。

You are black belts in life. Tell me what you've experienced. And there's a a chapter in his book on money, and he says, of the thousand people that he interviewed, not a single person, not one person looking back at their life said, I wish I had more money. I wish I worked harder. I wish I had accumulated more than my neighbors.

一个都没有。但几乎所有人——上千人中的几乎每一个——都说，我希望多陪陪家人。我希望为社区创造更多价值。我希望多和朋友相处。哪怕只是打个电话问候他们近况。

Not a single person. But almost every single one of them, almost every one of the thousand people said, I wish I spent more time with my family. I wish I I had added more value to my community. I wish I had spent more time with my friends. I wish I had just called up my friends and just asked how they're doing.

这是他们的普遍心声。对我来说，如果这还不能让你深刻领悟——关于你临终时会后悔或庆幸的事——那真不知什么才能。所以我思考，或许答案是否定的，但我好奇像埃隆·马斯克、沃伦·巴菲特或比尔·盖茨这样的人，临终时是否会想：我积累了天文数字的财富，但真希望当初多陪陪朋友。

That was universal among them. That to me is like if if if that's not a profound observation for you and just in terms of what you are gonna look back at your life on and regret or not regret, it's obviously that. So I wonder. Maybe the answer is no, but I wonder if someone like Elon Musk or Warren Buffett or Bill Gates will have that on their deathbed. Where they look back and say, I accumulated zillions of dollars, but I I wish I had spent more time with my friends.

真希望当初给某人打个电话。这些才是真正让我人生愉悦的事。我常思考这个。我整个职业生涯都在家办公，远早于新冠疫情。从大学毕业后就一直如此。

I wish I had called this person. That's what actually gave me pleasure in life. I think about that a lot. I've worked from home my entire career, well before COVID. My entire career since college, I worked from home.

这有利有弊，但好处之一是我能时刻陪伴孩子。现在他们上学了，情况略有不同，但我非常珍惜与他们共度的时光。回首往事时，这些时光的价值将呈指数级超越我在此期间积累的任何财富。所以我认为，这或许是老生常谈，但对我而言就是全部意义所在。

There are pluses and minuses to that, but one of the pluses is I'm constantly around my kids now. Now they're they're in school. It's a little bit different, but I really value that time that I get to spend with them. And I think that will be something looking back that I value so much more, exponentially more than whatever money I was able to accumulate during this time. So I think, again, maybe that that's a generic answer, but for me, that's all of what it is.

如果明天就是我临终之日——我知道这是我人生该修正的缺陷——我会回想说：真希望多陪陪这个人，真该给那个人打电话，当初不该对某人那么刻薄。

I think if I were on my deathbed tomorrow I I know this is like a flaw in in my life that I I should address. If I were on my deathbed tomorrow, I would look back and say, I wish I had spent more time with this person. I wish I called this person. I wish I was nicer to this person. I was a jerk to that guy.

我本不该那样。我知道这就是我的遗憾清单：真该多给父母打电话，真不该轻视父母的见解。

I shouldn't have been. I know that's what it would be. Those would be all of my regrets. I wish I called my parents more often. I wish I wasn't dismissive of my parents' views.

那就是全部了。我的脑海里不会再有任何关于金钱的念头。

That would be everything. Not a single thought would go through my head about money.

我完全同意。但让我再详细说明一下。让我回到动机这个话题。如果你已经达到了这种‘知足’的独角兽心态，意识到自己已经足够。重申一下，我们已确认这并不意味着你不再有雄心壮志。

Plus one on all of that. But let me just get a little bit more granular. Let me just go back to motivation. So if you've achieved this unicorn mind state of enoughness, realizing, okay, have enough. And again, we've established that doesn't mean you're not going to be ambitious anymore.

但当你展望未来的职业生涯时——这可能是个针对你的具体问题——如果你告诉自己‘我的钱已经够多了’，当然你仍想要更多，那么当金钱不再像过去那样是主要动力时，你如何激励自己继续写作、演讲、在专业领域持续产出？

But as you then look at your professional career going forward, and maybe this is a question for you specifically, if you've told yourself the story that you have enough money, but of course you still want more, How do you motivate yourself to keep writing, to keep speaking, to keep producing professionally if money is not as much of a motivator as it used to be?

如果诚实面对自己，我认为我的职业动机大概一半是为了金钱，一半是因为我喜欢。大概就是这样。如果深入思考，可能会得出不同比例，但大致如此。22岁时若问我，我会说98%为钱，2%出于兴趣。也许未来某天会变成20%为钱，80%出于热爱，但永远不会是0%和100%。

I think if I'm honest with myself, I would say my personal career motivations are probably half money and half I just enjoy it. That's probably about what it is. If I thought deeper about it, I might come up with different figures, but that's about what it Now when I was 22, if you ask me, I would say my motivations are 98% money and 2% I enjoy this. And maybe I'll get to a point in my career where it's 20% money and 80% I enjoy it. It's never gonna be zero and a 100.

永远不会出现‘完全不为钱，纯粹因为喜欢’这种情况。正如你提到的，我确实渴望更多财富，但随着时间推移，职业回报的平衡会逐渐向‘更少为钱，更多为热爱’倾斜。

It's never gonna be, oh, I don't do it for the money. I'm just doing it because I like this. I don't think it'll ever be that. I'm again, like and you you mentioned this. I I have aspirations for more money, but I think the balance between what I get out of my career just shifts down over time between it's less about money and more about I enjoy doing it.

金钱赋予的独立与自主，很大程度上体现在能做想做的事、为心仪的公司工作、有权拒绝、能选择项目——这让工作更像艺术而非苦役。写作本就是门艺术，如同绘画雕塑。而科技公司的管理岗位或许不那么艺术化，但从业者可能享受与同事的相处。

And so much of independence and autonomy that money can give you is doing the work that you want, working for the company that you want, being able to say no when you want, being able to take on projects that you want so that feels less like work and more just like an art. Now writing, I think, is actually an art in the same way that, like, painting and sculpting. I think writing falls in that same bucket. If you are a manager at a tech company, that to me seems less like an art. But does a person like that might say, I enjoy the people I work with.

我享受与同事的关系，能与有趣的人互动——这种动机超越金钱，但金钱目标始终存在。我仍有财务追求，希望规划职业生涯以获得更多收入。

I enjoy my colleagues. I enjoy the relationships. I get to interact with interesting people. And that is a motivation that is more than money, but it's always gonna be there. And I have money goals and money ambitions, and I wanna situate my career so that I can earn more money.

确实如此，但比起过去已经少多了。而这正是我所珍视的，因为金钱因素在等式中的比重越低，我就越能专注于自己的职业生涯，只做喜欢的项目，写真正感兴趣的书，而非那些可能报酬最高的书。我只想在酷炫的活动和城市里演讲，那里还有朋友能让我在前一晚共进晚餐。我认为这已是人生至境。杰夫·贝佐斯大约一年前说过这样的话。

That's true, but it's less than it used to be. And that I value because the more the money side of the equation drops, the more that I can focus my career in saying, only wanna do the projects that I like and write the books that I'm really interested in rather than the book that you might get paid the most for. I only wanna do the speaking events at cool events in cool cities that I also have a friend at that I can have dinner with the night before. I think that's about as good as you can get. Jeff Bezos said this about a year ago.

他说，如果你能把工作与生活的平衡调整到享受其中一半工作的程度，那就太棒了。他说很少有人能达到享受自己工作一半内容的境界。所以这对人们来说是个巨大的期望重置。我觉得他说得对。能真心享受其中一半，差不多就是最好的状态了。

He said, if you can get your work life balance to where you enjoy half of your work, that's amazing. He said very few people get to the point where they can enjoy half of their job. And so that's that's a big expectation reset for people. I think he's right. That's about as good as you can get is to really enjoy half of it.

我觉得这些观点都让我深有共鸣。不过我想再补充一个观点。这是杰里·科隆纳曾经告诉我的，他之前也上过这个节目，有人称他为硅谷的尤达大师。他原是风险投资人，后来成为带有佛教色彩的高管教练，为许多硅谷或科技界的创业者提供建议。

I think that this all of this really lands for me. Let me throw something else into the discussion, though. This was said to me once by a guy named Jerry Colonna, who has been on the show before. He's sometimes called the Yoda of Silicon Valley. He's a former venture capitalist who became a sort of Buddhist inflected executive coach, and he whispers in the ears of a lot of Silicon Valley or tech type entrepreneurs.

虽然我绝非科技巨头，但幸运的是多年来他一直担任我的教练。有次咨询中，我正纠结于这些问题，试图弄清如果没有金钱驱动，什么能激励我。另一个我认为真正激励我的因素或许是关注。他用了一个分量很重的词——这个词带着文化包袱，但他用得非常朴实，我会稍作解释——他说的是'爱'。这个爱是广义的，可以是健康的自爱，比如想为自己争取些美好事物；对家人的爱，想支持家庭确保孩子拥有众多机会；对客户、员工、同事的爱。

And I've been lucky enough to have him as even though I am not a tech titan by any stretch, but I've been working with him as a coach for many years. We were in a one session, really, I was wrestling with a lot of these issues and trying to figure out, like, what what would motivate me if it wasn't for money. And the other thing that I that I think really motivates me is sort of attention. And he used a big word that's a loaded word because it has a lot of cultural baggage, but he meant it in a very down to earth way, and I will will unpack it a little bit, but he used the word love. Now love in the broadest sense of it could be even self love, a healthy self love of wanting to have a few nice things for yourself, love of your family, wanting to support your family and making sure that your kid has lots of opportunities, of your customers, love of your employees, love of your colleagues.

虽然乍听可能有些老套，但我觉得这个观点其实非常接地气，正好呼应了你说的'一半为钱一半为兴趣'的动机理论。

And I feel like that actually, as cheesy as it might sound at first blush, is quite down to earth, and it goes right at what you said about your motivation being half money and half enjoying what you do.

巴菲特有句话说得很好：'人生中重要的是拥有你不愿让其失望的人。'这是生命中非常关键的部分——总有些依赖你的人是你不想辜负的。对我的职业生涯也是如此。我不想让妻子、孩子、父母或同事失望。对这些人而言，我的事业不只关乎我个人，失望带来的影响远超财务层面。

There's a quote from Buffett where he says, it's good to have people in your life who you don't wanna disappoint. That's like a really important part in life is that there are other people who probably rely on you that you don't wanna disappoint. And that's true for my career too. Like, I don't wanna disappoint my wife, my kids, my parents, my coworkers. There are people for whom it's like, this career is not just about me, and disappointment is goes beyond finance.

我不希望孩子们长大后回首往事时说'爸爸放弃了，他过去二十年就躺在沙发上吃冰淇淋'。那会让他们失望。我希望孩子们能说'爸爸非常努力，他成就了这番事业，他的精神激励我成为了想成为的人'。这才是真正重要的。

I don't want my kids, when they become adults, to look back and say, dad quit. Dad gave up, and he sat on the couch and eaten ice cream for the last twenty years. That would be letting them down. I want my kids to look back and say, my dad worked really hard and he had this career, and my dad motivated me, my kids, to do X, Y, and Z and whatever they wanna become. That's really important.

这激励我想要拥有一份美好、快乐、令人享受的事业。我能自我激励。我不想让他们失望。所以这对我来说是另一种动力，它不是金钱，甚至不是享受日常工作的乐趣，而仅仅是不想让别人失望。

So that motivates me to wanna have a good, happy, enjoyable career. I can motivate. I don't wanna let them down. So that's another motivator for me that is not it's not money, and it's not even enjoying what I'm doing day to day. It's just not wanting to let other people down.

嗯，是的。我认为你所说的享受和对他人负责的感受，都可以归入杰瑞提出的广义的爱的理解范畴。让我问几个问题。这次对话非常精彩。

Mhmm. Yes. I would say both the enjoyment and the responsibility you feel to other people would fall under the broad understanding of love that Jerry was putting forth. Let me ask a few questions. This has been a great conversation.

在我们即将结束这次对话之际，让我问几个问题。首先，显而易见的是，我们是两位富有的白人男性在进行这场讨论。这并不是自我贬低，我并非在故作谦卑。我们无法控制自己出生的背景。

Let me ask a few questions here as we get toward the end of our time together. One is to state the obvious, we're two wealthy white men having this discussion. And now that is not to self denigrate. I'm not wearing a hair shirt here. We can't control the wounds we came out of.

然而，正因如此，我们确实戴着某种眼罩。所以我在想，鉴于我们自然而然的视角，你觉得我们可能忽略了什么？

And yet, we do have certain blinders on as a consequence. And so I'm just wondering, do you have any thoughts about what we might have missed given the perspectives we quite naturally have?

我想，我之前提到过我的朋友，他的母亲会购买彩票。他作为一名非洲裔美国人，在极度贫困中长大。当他告诉我这个故事时——那不过是两、三年前的事——我震惊得下巴都要掉下来了。

I think, you know, I mentioned my friend earlier whose mother was purchasing the lottery tickets. He grew up in abject poverty as an African American. And when he told me that story, my which is not that. It was two, three years ago. My jaw hit the floor.

我根本想不到，在百万分之一的可能性中，这种情况竟然存在。我的另一位朋友在马拉维长大，他谈到面前有一顿热饭时的敬畏感。那同样让我深感震撼，几乎有一种内疚感，想到世界上有一部分我无法想象的生活，今天仍有数百万甚至数十亿人正在经历，这非常深刻。我想这对每个人都是如此。

I just it would never cross my mind in a million years that that existed. My other friend who grew up in Malawi who talked about his sense of awe when he gets a a hot meal in front of him. That too was just such a profound, like, gosh. There's almost a sense of guilt when you hear that of, like, there's a part of the world that I cannot even fathom that millions, if not billions, of other people are experiencing today, and that's pretty profound. I think it's true for everyone.

而且，再次强调，这并不是说你我应该对自己的身份感到内疚，而是要意识到，你我经历的一切只是世界上发生的不到1%的事情。我儿子出生时，我给他写了一封信，内容主要是关于财务建议。其中我提到，他作为一个白人美国男性，父母都受过大学教育，我希望他明白世界上99.9%的人并非如此。是的，我并没有写这些让他感到内疚，而是希望他理解，世界上存在完全不同于他的生活方式和思维方式。

And, like, again, it's not a sense of, you know, you and I should not feel guilty of who we are, but it's just a sense of realizing that what you and I have experienced is a fraction of 1% of what has happened in the world. When my son was born, I wrote him a letter of things of that it was it was geared around finance, financial advice for my new son. And one of the things I talked about is, like, you were you are born a white American male to college educated parents, and I want you to understand that 99.9% of the world is not that. And, yeah, I I didn't write this, but don't don't feel not a sense of guilt. It's just understanding that there is a way that the world works and a way that other people think that is completely foreign to you.

而你的思维方式对他们来说将完全陌生，对这些不同观点保持同理心和开放态度是极其关键的。

And the way that you think is gonna be completely foreign to them, and having a level of empathy and open mindedness to those other views is so incredibly critical.

是的。内疚——这并非原创观点——但内疚往往是自我指涉的。如果你困在内疚中，说明你仍深陷于自我叙事里。感恩和视角转换能让你更关注他人，我认为这有助于看清事物本质。

Yeah. Guilt is and this is not an original observation, but guilt is often self referential. So you you still have your head up your own ass. You're still in your own story about you if you're stuck in guilt. Gratitude and perspective actually makes you more other oriented and I think helps you see things as they are.

没错。同样不是新观点，但没有什么比环球旅行更能开阔眼界，特别是去贫困国家，它能让你看清世界上另外70亿你不熟悉的日常生活方式。这令人震撼。

Yeah. And I I this is not original either, but there's nothing nothing more eye opening than world travel, particularly to poor poor nations, to open your eyes to how the other 7,000,000,000 people in the world that you are not familiar with on a day to day basis live. It's astounding.

有什么我该问却没问到的问题吗？是否有你希望探讨但我未涉及的领域？

Is there anything I should have asked but failed to ask? Are there areas you would have liked to explore that I didn't bring us to?

这次对话很愉快。多年来我一直欣赏你的著作，正如之前提到的，这是极少数让我一口气读完的书之一。我认为你的书有两大亮点：一是你坦然面对自身缺陷和人生痛苦，人们对此产生共鸣，因为每个人都有难言之隐，而99%的人选择隐藏。

This has been a fun conversation. I've admired your work and your book for years. It was I I mentioned earlier, is one of the very few books that I read cover to cover, and I read it in one or two sittings. And I think what's great about your book was two things. One is you are very open with your flaws and pains in life, and people love that because every single person has skeletons and problems in their life, and 99% of people hide them and don't talk about them.

当有人能站出来说'这是我人生低谷，这些是我的缺点和错误，我要直面它们'时，包括我在内的大多数人都会心怀感激——因为我们都有不愿提及的缺陷。你的书《10% Happier》这个绝妙标题的另一个亮点，在于它设定了合理预期：冥想不会彻底改变人生，不会让你变成终日傻笑的乐天派。

And when someone can come out and say, here is a very hard period in in my life, here are my flaws, here's were my mistakes, I'm just gonna open it up, I think most people, including myself, say thank you because I have flaws myself. Everyone's flaws are different, but I have them too that I don't talk about, and thank you for making me feel like I'm not alone. That was that was great. The other thing that it was such a brilliant title of your book, 10% happier, was about setting expectations, that it's not gonna change your life. It's not gonna turn you into this walking, grinning, ear to ear person.

若能提升10%的幸福感，已是最好结果。我认为这两点——坦诚自身缺陷，并对改善这些缺陷设定合理预期——处理得极为出色。

If you could be 10% happier, that's that's the best that you can do. Those two things, I think, of being open with your flaws and setting expectations about how you could actually improve upon those flaws, thought was very well done.

我真的很感激这一点，尤其是因为我非常尊重你和你的工作。关于后一点提到的10%，我认为这是贯穿我们整个对话的一个主题，它直接呼应了你之前所说的——要期待合理，而非绝对理性。

I really appreciate that, especially since I have a lot of respect for you and your work. And I think on that latter point, the 10, you know, I think that's a theme that you've hit in one way or another throughout this conversation of it goes right back to what you said before about expecting to be reasonable, not rational.

这非常重要，也是生活中容易被忽视的领域，当人们抱有巨大期望时尤其如此。在投资领域，我可以告诉你一个类似的现象。几乎所有初次投资的年轻人，尤其是年轻男性，都抱着'我每六周就能让资金翻倍'这类不切实际的期待。你必须告诉他们：不，不可能。

It's so important and an area of life that is easy to overlook when people have massive expectations. In investing, I'll tell you the the the equivalent of this. Almost every new investor who's investing for the first time, particularly young men, have this expectation that, like, oh, I'm gonna double my money every six weeks or whatever it might be. And you have to be like, no. No.

不。如果你能实现每年8%-10%的收益，就已经非常出色了。期望与现实之间的鸿沟简直深不可测。我认为你在设定冥想能带来的预期效果方面做得很好。

No. If you can earn eight to 10% per year, you're doing amazing. You just have it's a complete the the gap between expectations and reality is a mile wide. And I thought you did a good job of setting the expectations of what meditation can do for you.

谢谢。在结束之前，既然你刚才推荐了我的书，我能否也请你推荐一下你的著作？或者还有其他任何你希望让听众了解的作品吗？

Thank you. Before I let you go, can I push you since you just plugged my book, can I get get you to plug your book and anything else that you've, you know, put out into the universe that you'd like to let this audience know about?

我的书《金钱心理学》大约两年前出版，目前全球销量约220万册，被翻译成51种语言。这本书由短小精悍的章节构成，旨在揭示人们在金钱认知上的误区，帮助读者重新审视自己的生活目标和财务规划方式。我希望读者读完后的收获不是具体操作指南，而是对人生追求和美好生活方式的更深层思考。

My book, The Psychology of Money, was published just about two years ago. It's at about 2,200,000 copies sold worldwide now. It's in fifty one fifty one languages, and it's a book that just has very short kind of bite sized chapters that explain, I hope, a flaw in how people think about money and how you can think about your own life and your own money in a way that helps you contextualize your own goals and aspirations and how to manage your money in a little bit better way. I hope if you get to the end of the book, it's not necessarily that you will have learned actionable takeaways, but you will become more introspective about what you want in life and how to live a better life.

这就是那本书了。还有其他我们应该关注你动态的渠道吗？

So that's the book. Any anything else that we should be looking for from you?

不论好坏，我大部分时间都活跃在Twitter上，账号是我的全名morganhausel。那里基本记录了我的网络生活，如果你想了解我的最新思考、写作或动态，那就是最佳去处。

I spend most of my time, for better or worse, on Twitter. My handle is morganhausel, my first and last name. That's most of my online life. If you wanna see what I'm thinking, writing, doing next, that's where you can find it.

太好了。尽管推特有很多缺点，我也很喜欢它。很高兴能与你见面聊天。谢谢你的时间，真的非常感谢。

Great. I like Twitter too for all of its flaws. Such a pleasure to meet and chat with you. Thank you for your time. Really appreciate it.

谢谢，丹。这次聊天很愉快。

Thanks, Dan. This has been fun.

再次感谢摩根·豪塞尔。很高兴认识这位朋友。同时也感谢所有为这期节目辛勤工作的人。《10% Happier》由贾斯汀·戴维、加布里埃尔·祖克曼、DJ Cashmere和劳伦·史密斯制作。我们的监制是玛丽莎·施奈德曼。

Thanks again to Morgan Housel. Pleasure to meet that guy. Thank you as well to everybody who worked so hard on this show. 10% Happier is produced by Justine Davey, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, and Lauren Smith. Our supervising producer is Marissa Schneiderman.

金米·雷格勒是我们的执行制作人，执行制片人是珍·波扬特。配乐和混音由紫外线音频的彼得·博纳文图拉负责。我们周三将继续探讨金钱系列的第二部分，届时将与佛教导师斯宾塞·谢尔曼对话。佛陀实际上对金钱及其获取方式等有很多见解。

Kimmy Regler is our managing producer, and our executive producer is Jen Poyant. We get our scoring and mixing from Peter Bonaventure over at Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you all on Wednesday for part two in our money series. We'll be talking to the Buddhist teacher Spencer Sherman. The Buddha actually had a lot to say about money and how we make our money, etcetera.

所以，两天后我们将深入探讨这个话题。

So, we'll dive into that in just two days.