加密货币正在重建金融体系——机遇无处不在

资产不会有事的。

The assets are gonna be fine.

多花三分钟又有什么关系呢？

Who cares if it takes three minutes?

三十秒搞定就行，最终确认会来的。

Just do it in thirty seconds, and the finality will come.

但你有没有真的遇到过问题？

But have you ever run into an actual issue with it?

我得说，情况确实在慢慢变好。

So I will say they're like, it's getting a lot better over time.

重组现在少多了，规模也小多了。

Re reorgs are are generally much less frequent and much smaller.

但有一阵子，Polygon 每隔一天就重组两百多个区块。

But there was a time where Polygon reorged 200 plus block reorgs, like, every other day.

我们还见过 ZK 链回滚几十万个区块的情况。

We've seen ZK chains roll back, like, hundreds of thousands of blocks.

有一条EVM链发生了很大的重组，是因为一次安全事件。

There was just a really large reorg on one of the EVM chains that had a security incident.

我们要不要

Should we

聊聊这个？

get into that?

那里发生了什么？

What happened there?

我觉得挺有意思的。

I think that's interesting.

Cronos上有个大型DeFi协议被黑客攻击了。

There was one of the large DeFi protocols got hacked on Cronos.

这种事情已经发生过很多次了，但他们得做个决定：是让黑客攻击继续存在，还是把链回滚到攻击之前的状态？

You see this happen, this is happening a bunch of times, but they had to have the decision of, Hey, do you allow the hack to exist or do you roll the chain back to a point like pre hack?

显然，当你考虑这个问题时，会有很多后续影响。

And obviously there's a bunch of downstream implications of when you think about this.

有哪些资产被桥接走了？

What assets got bridged off?

整体情况是什么样的？

What does all of that look like?

因为当你回滚链的时候，另一边的交易已经确认了。

Because when you're rolling this back, you've already committed transactions on the other side.

所以这种情况确实会发生。

So, definitely happens.

幸运的是，现在大部分交易量最大的资产都是稳定币，而稳定币有相应的执行机制。

Luckily now, most of the stuff, like the highest volume of things being transacted are stablecoins and stablecoins just have a layer enforcement.

他们可以冻结资产。

They can freeze assets.

他们可以做那些在完全无许可的资产上做不到的事情。

They can do things that you can't do on just totally permissionless assets.

所以我认为，在某种程度上，我们已经能够解决一些问题，比如在资金到达其他链时冻结被扣押的资金，或者在它们到达之前就冻结，还可以将某些钱包列入黑名单，做所有这些事情。

So I think there has been some ability to rectify some of the issues to freeze seized funds as they hit other chains and before they hit other chains, blacklist certain wallets to do all of these things.

但我觉得，大概每三个月，嗯，可能三到四个月，你就会看到某个链发生一次比较大的回滚。

But do think, you know, we probably see every three months, yeah, probably three to four months, you'll see a chain have like a meaningful rollback.

所以这确实仍然很重要，也确实仍然会发生，人们也仍然在定价时考虑绕过这个问题，以提供更好的客户体验。

So it definitely still matters and it definitely still happens and people are still pricing, bypassing that to provide a better customer experience.

所以当你把它移到现在，很多其他东西也开始做类似的事情时，你基本上就是把风险从整个协议或整个资产转移到了特定的对手方，也就是在另一边负责填单的求解者或个人，他们来承担这个风险。

And so when you move it to now where a bunch of other stuff are starting to do some of this, you're basically shifting the risk from a protocol as a whole or the asset as a whole to a specific counterparty, a solver or person filling the thing on the other side who's bearing the risk.

这很有道理。

That makes a ton of sense.

所以，我觉得这挺好的。

So, I mean, it's good.

你们在避免一些陷阱方面，我觉得做得相当不错。

You guys have done, I think, a reasonably good job at avoiding some pitfalls.

当然，在加密货币领域，要避免所有陷阱是非常困难的。

Obviously, avoiding all of them is quite difficult in crypto.

你们通过协议处理的交易量可是数十亿美元级别的。

You guys are running billions of dollars of volume through your protocol.

但大家现在真正关心的是，你们赚钱了吗？

But what people really care about today is, are you making money?

比如，你们协议有一个对应的代币。

Like, you guys have a token associated with with with the protocol.

我觉得现在所有顶级资产都有让代币持有者或股东赚钱的途径，不管你怎么称呼他们。

All of, I think, the top assets right now have a path to making money for, you know, the token holders or shareholders or however you wanna call them.

我的意思是，你们有什么计划来确保ZERO保持价值？

I mean, what what is your plan for making sure that ZERO maintains value?

是的。

Yep.

所以我觉得这个话题值得在讨论完Atlas和ZERO之后再聊，因为我觉得它们会汇合到一起。

So I think this is worth having the conversation after we talk about Atlas and ZERO because I think it will all converge together.

所以我们一定要聊。

So let's definitely do it.

我会带你了解这个堆栈的所有部分，以及它们是如何结合在一起的。

I'll walk you through all of the pieces of that stack and where it all comes together.

好的。

Okay.

那我们现在就进入这个话题吧？

So why we just get into this now?

我们之前聊过跨链协议。

So we talked about the cross chain protocol.

最初，你们提到你们自己在构建一条区块链。

Originally, guys mentioned that you guys are building a blockchain itself.

你们这是在给已有的成千上万条链再添一条。

You're adding to the you're adding to the thousands of chains that exist.

我很好奇，为什么你们决定这么做，而不是让其他人直接连接其他区块链呢？

And I'm curious why you decided to do that instead of just allowing other people just connecting other blockchains?

为什么要自己建一条呢？

Why build your own?

说实话，我们本来不想这么做的。

We didn't want to, I will say.

我们绝对没打算要推出一个区块链，这根本不在我们的计划里。

We definitely had no intention to set out and launch a blockchain, not even in our radar.

大概四年前吧，我的联合创始人兼CTO，Raz，他对以太坊的现状非常不满，对Layer 2的整体状况也很不满，而且以太坊路线图上的所有重点都在把一切推向Layer 2。

I would say almost four years ago now, my cofounder or CTO, Raz, really he was really upset with, like, the state of Ethereum, right, and the state of Layer twos in general and the fact that, you know, all of all of the volume in ETH's roadmap was, like, pushing everything to Layer twos.

但基本上，所有这些Layer 2都只是可升级的合约，它们的定位方式非常不同。

But, basically, like, all of them were just these upgradeable contracts that, you know, were were not they were positioned in a very different way.

所以他几乎每天都跟我抱怨，我都听烦了。

And so he was he was literally every day complaining to me, and I was so sick of it.

我就说，好吧，兄弟。

I was like, All right, dude.

你那么聪明。

You're so freaking smart.

你会怎么做？

What would you do?

他画出了这个架构，我们争论了好几天，就像，你知道，这个怎么样？

He drew out this architecture, and we debated it for multiple days of just like, you know, what what about this?

那这个呢？

What about this?

我怎么才能把它搞坏？

How can I break it?

我怎么才能把它搞坏？

How can I break it?

最后，他那样说的时候，我完全被说服了。

And at the end, he was like like, I was just completely sold.

我当时就觉得，很明显，这就是一切发展的方向，也是很多这类事情的最终形态。

I was like, very clearly, this is this is the way that everything is going to play out, and this is like the end state for how a bunch of this stuff will look like.

里面有很多东西，我的意思是，我们在方向上全都对了。

And there's a bunch of things in there that that I mean, we were directionally right on all of it.

我们搞错的地方。

The things we were wrong about.

我们当时以为ZK会像现成的东西一样拿来就能用。

We thought ZK would be like off the shelf.

我们当时觉得，ZK肯定会完全商品化。

We're like, ZK is gonna be totally commoditized.

技术会发展得飞快，你就能直接拿来用，就像这样。

Technology is gonna move super fast, and you're just gonna be able to pull it off the shelf and like, this is what this will look like.

但实际情况完全不是这样。

And I was like, not at all the case.

即使到现在，我们刚刚宣布了我们正在做的一切。

Even now, we just announced everything we're doing.

我觉得，要做到和我们差不多的水平，Eats的路线图还得等个十年十五年。

I think Eats roadmap for doing even close to the same as you're like ten, fifteen years away.

所以我们离当初的设想还差得远呢。

So we're just so far away from what we thought it would be.

所以我想说，头几年我们就是有个愿景，然后我们的首席架构师QMDB，也就是Quick Miracle Database，休陪产假去了，这算是个突破。

And so I would say the first couple of years were just like, we had this picture of what we wanted to do, and then we had this breakthrough of QMDB, Quick Miracle Database, was our chief architect, went on paternity leave.

他有了孩子，然后就离开了。

So he had a baby, and he left.

他正好有点时间，就一直在琢磨这个问题。

And he just like had some time and he was just like obsessing over this problem.

然后我们想出了这个新的数据库结构，QMDB。

And we came up with this new database structure, QMDB.

它比当时最先进的技术要快好几个数量级。

And it is like many, many, many orders of magnitude over state of the art sort of prior at the time.

所以当我们有了这个之后，问题就变成了，好吧，现在这变得非常有趣了。

And so when we had this, the question was like, okay, well, now this becomes very interesting.

然后在那之后，我们发表了一系列不同的论文。

And so then downstream from that, we published a bunch of different papers.

但简单来说，我们做这件事最终得到的结果，我们一开始以为可能每秒一万笔交易，觉得那已经不错了。

But like Cliffs, what we got at the end of doing this, we thought early on, maybe we're like 10,000 transactions per second, like that's something you could do.

结果我们达到了每秒两百万笔交易，即使算上EVM的开销，每秒一百万笔交易，把所有EVM的开销都算进去。

We ended up at like 2,000,000 transactions per second, like even with the EVM overhead, like a million transactions per second with all of the overhead of the EVM.

我们真的被这个结果震撼到了。

And we're just like blown away from that side.

所以我觉得这一路走来有四个重大突破。

So I would say there's four major breakthroughs along the way.

那时候我们才开始真正认真起来。

And that's when we really started getting serious.

而且当我们发现，你知道，几乎我们整合过的每一个非EVM系统里都有严重漏洞。

And when we had, like you know, we found crits in almost every major non EVM we've ever integrated.

所以我们觉得，我们对其他每个区块链和每种方法的虚拟机理解得比世界上几乎任何其他团队都深，因为我们需要把端点整合到所有这些系统中，理解人们所做的权衡，理解如何做到这一点。

So we like I think we've gotten deeper on the actual VMs of every other blockchain and every other approach than almost any other group in the world and actually needing to integrate the endpoint into all of this, understand the trade offs that people are making, understand how to do this.

然后我们做到了，我们有了这个系统，我们说，哦，这真的很棒。

And so we got there, we got this system and we said, Oh, this is actually really amazing.

如今，QMDB正在被推广到世界上每一个主要的性能系统中。

QMDB today now is being rolled out in every major performance system in the world.

所以Tempo正在通过commonware推广这个。

So Tempo is rolling this out through commonware.

任何试图构建高性能区块链的人实际上都在使用我们发明的这个结构。

Anybody who's trying to do performing blockchains is effectively using this structure that we invented.

然后问题就变成了，你实际上要做什么？

And so, then it became, okay, what do you actually do?

Uniswap 和 Avi 肯定不需要每秒两百万笔交易。

Uniswap and Avi certainly don't need 2,000,000 transactions per second.

那其实没什么用。

That's not really helpful.

也就是从那时起，我们真正开始和很多合作伙伴一起沿着这条路走下去。

And that's when we really started going down this path with a bunch of our partners now.

到底谁需要这个？

What actually needs this?

真正需要它的只有金融和支付。

What needs it really is just finance and payments.

只有这两件事才是关键。

Those are the only two things that matter.

所以当我们谈到 ZERO，谈到我们要推出什么的时候。

So when we talk about ZERO and we talk about what are we launching?

我们要推出什么？

What are we launching?

我们要推出一个基本上从头开始构建的、以ZK优先的区块链，这可能是很长时间以来第一个真正从头构建的区块链，能够达到每秒数百万笔交易，延迟极低。

We're launching a basically ZK-first blockchain built from the ground up, probably the first one truly built from the ground up in a very, very, very long time at multiple millions of transactions per second at incredibly low latency.

而且在此基础上，我们真正关心的只有金融，也就是市场和支付，仅此而已。

And on top of that, the only things that we really care about is finance, so markets and payments, and that's it.

所以在市场方面，我们正在构建Atlas，这个我们已经公布了，基本上就像我们公布的那样，我们公布了一个区块链，我们的大合作伙伴我们……

So on the market side, we're building Atlas, which we've announced, and this is basically As we announced, we announced a blockchain, our big partners we

需要理解的是，Atlas是构建在ZERO区块链之上的。

have to understand, Atlas is built on top of the ZERO blockchain.

但你之前构建的协议，那个消息传递协议，除了将ZERO区块链连接到外部世界之外，它和ZERO区块链还有其他关联吗？

But does the protocol that you've built prior, the messaging protocol, have any connection to the ZERO blockchain other than just connecting it to the rest of the world?

就是连接到外部世界，然后它也是你在区块链内部进行通信的接口。

So just connecting to the rest of the world, and then it is the interface for how you communicate within the blockchain.

所以ZERO的一个独特之处在于，在它之上，如果你想想以太坊，它有一个信标链，还有一堆全球分布的验证者。

So one of the unique things about ZERO is that on top of it so if you think about Ethereum, there's like a beacon chain that exists, and there's a bunch of globally distributed validators.

然后在此基础上，它们可以支持单个应用程序。

Then on top of that, they can support a single application.

那个应用程序就是EVM。

That application is the EVM.

所以实际上，EVM是一个应用程序，它把状态滚动到持有状态的信标链上。

So actually, EVM is application that is rolling state down to the beacon chain that is holding state.

而ZERO因为ZK技术，那其实只是压缩，还有我们发明的另一种算法SVID。

And so zero because of the ZK stuff, which is really just compression, and SVID, which is this other algorithm that we've invented.

现在基本上可以同时处理多个这样的东西。

You can basically now hold multiple of these things.

所以与其只有一个通用环境，你可以从头开始构建完全不同的东西。

So rather than having one general purpose environment, you can build something completely from the ground up.

所以说到Atlas，它是一个交易环境，旨在扩展到每秒数百万笔交易，区块时间大约十毫秒。

So when you talk about Atlas, Atlas is a trading environment meant to scale to many millions of transactions per second at roughly ten millisecond block times.

然后这基本上会滚动到ZERO上。

And that basically gets rolled down to zero.

LayerZero这个协议就是把它连接到外面的世界，这样所有的资产都会在那里。

LayerZero, the protocol, is just connecting it to the rest of the world, so all the assets will be there.

接口就是这些区域或环境之间互相通信的方式，但除此之外它们并不是完全连在一起的。

The interface is how each of these zones or environments communicate with each other, but otherwise not totally connected.

好的，明白了。

Okay, understood.

我还在努力理解Atlas本身。

And I'm trying to wrap my head around Atlas itself.

首先，Atlas的最终用户是谁？

First of all, who is the end user of Atlas?

谁真正在使用它，用它做什么？

Who's actually interacting with it and what's getting done?

是不是像Hyperliquid那样可以建在它上面？

Is it like a Hyperliquid would be built on top of it?

还是说Atlas本身就是一个你会用来交易的系统？

Is it that Atlas itself is a system that you're gonna be trading on?

Atlas本身就是一个交易所，对吧？

Atlas itself is the exchange, right?

也就是说，它集结算、清算、撮合、风险、信用等所有功能于一体，是一个完整的系统。

In terms of it is the settlement clearing matching sort of like risk credit layer all in a single stack.

所以Atlas就是处理交易如何被接收、执行、持有等所有环节的环境。

So Atlas is the environment of how trades are ingested, they're executed, how they're held in, say, all of these things.

在此基础上，我们把它设计成一个没有自己前端界面的系统。

On top of that, we've sort of structured it to one where we're not going to have our own front end.

所以我们不会推出一个面向公众的交易所，而是把它变成一种技术。

So we're not launching a public facing exchange, but what this became technology.

我们在2月10日宣布的合作伙伴包括DTCC、ICE，也就是纽约证券交易所的母公司，还有Citadel等等。

So partners we announced when we announced on February 10 is the DTCC, ICE, so parent company in the New York Stock Exchange, Citadel, on and on.

所以这些合作伙伴都是传统金融领域的重量级机构。

So really TradFi heavy partners.

对我们来说，我们认为在Atlas之上有两个视角。

And so for us, we view there being two lenses on top of Atlas.

一个是把Atlas向全世界开放。

One being open Atlas public to the world.

也就是说，这是开放且无需许可的市场，任何人都可以使用。

And so this is open and permissionless markets broadly available to anybody.

然后还有机构市场，这就像你想到美国很多大型交易所一样，当你想到代币化这个趋势，以及这个趋势正在发生时，这种市场是受访问控制的。

Then you have institutional markets, which are really As you think about many of the largest exchanges in The United States, as you think about tokenization as a trend, as you think about this trend happening, this is access controlled.

它是需要许可的。

It's permissioned.

通常需要KYC。

It's typically KYC.

它向一批注册的经纪自营商开放，不过这些规则刚刚有所调整，现在可以开放给更广泛的群体。

It's being opened up to a set of registered broker dealers, although those rules have just changed slightly to where now it can be opened up to a broader set.

你可以把它看作国内和国外，或者开放和机构之间的这种划分。

If you want to think about it as domestic and non domestic or open and institutional, that's how you have this split emerging.

但接下来会发生的是，我举个例子来说。

But what's going to happen is you'll have I'll just use it as a hypothetical.

基本上，ICE会推出ICE市场。

You'd have ICE launch basically ICE markets.

他们会直接在Atlas平台上搭建这个。

They would launch this on top of Atlas itself.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Understood.

我想问一个问题，他们真的会这么做吗？

And I guess the one question is, are they going to?

你说有合作伙伴，具体是什么意思？

What did you mean when you say you have partnerships?

那些对话是什么样的？

What were those conversations?

他们是说真的会在平台上开发，还是只是投资了？

Did they say that they're gonna be actually building on top of the platform or is it just that they're invested?

是的。

Yep.

所以其中一些，我们已经公布了。

So some of this, we've announced.

还有一些，我们还没公布。

Some of this, we haven't announced.

所以我会在不违反任何规定的前提下，尽量说得具体一些。

So I will be as specific as I can without breaching anything.

所以大部分，我们已经谈过所有公布了的东西。

So most we we've we've talked about all the announcements.

有一批一批的机构投资了大概五千万左右，基本上从一千万到一个亿不等。

A bunch a bunch of groups invested sort of 50 ish, anywhere from 10 to $100,000,000 basically.

所以投资那里

So investing There

有那么多家投了一个亿进去。

was so many that put in $100,000,000 into this.

对，然后50是第二大的，接着是30，然后就这样。

So yes, and then 50 is the next largest, and then 30, and then yeah.

是的。

So yes.

好的。

Okay.

名字和men押韵吗？

Does name rhyme with men?

各位？

Guys?

再说一遍，有些我们已经公开宣布了，有些还没有，但确实是规模非常大的机构，投入了非常可观的资金。

Again, some of this we've announced publicly, some of this we have not announced publicly, but really, really large institutions putting in very, very meaningful checks.

他们买的是代币，有些是代币加股权的组合，但大部分主要是代币。

Buying tokens, some had token and equity split, but primarily tokens for the majority of them.

那么问题来了，我们找这些合作伙伴到底是为了什么？

Then the question is, what did we want with all of these partners?

我觉得我们特别关注的一件事是

One thing I think we really focused on

这些代币有锁定期吗？

Are these tokens locked?

是的。

Yes.

对，几乎所有的都有。

Yeah, for almost all of them.

有些有释放计划，有些锁定一段时间。

Some of them have vesting schedules, some of them are locked for x period of time.

所以要看具体是哪一组。

So it depends on the group.

明白了。

Understood.

那么

So

我们当时想要什么？

what did we want?

有一点我们很清楚，我们骨子里就是技术人。

One thing we knew, we're technologists at heart.

我没有金融背景。

I don't have a background.

我并没有一辈子都在金融行业里。

I haven't spent my entire life in finance.

我们当初建LayerZero的时候，我觉得最好的例子就是——

When we were building LayerZero, like, I'll say probably the best example.

我们融资的时候，一开始从亲友那里融了250万，估值2500万。

When we were raising our round, so we raised two at 25 from friends and family.

后来我们融了640万，估值5000万，那一轮我们唯一的关注点就是，我要成为每个主流DeFi协议的最大或第二大股东。

We raised 6.4 at 50, and our only focus in that round was like, I want the largest or second largest stakeholder of every major DeFi protocol.

我要那些能影响我们必须进行的对话的人。

I want the people who can, like, influence conversations that we have to have.

然后我们以十亿和三亿美元的估值融资。

And then we raised at a billion and 3,000,000,000.

在那些轮融资中，情况非常明确。

And in those rounds, it was just very clear.

比如，它们是由a16z和红杉资本共同领投的。

Like, they were co led by a sixteen z and Sequoia.

我当时就说，听着。

And I said, like, listen.

我不需要你们告诉我怎么建设。

I don't want you to tell me how to build.

我们很清楚自己在建什么，以及怎么建。

We know exactly what we're building and how to build it.

我不知道的是如何打造一家世界级的公司。

What I don't know is how to build a world class company.

我觉得这真的很有帮助，让我们与那些有专业知识的团队合作，与最好的合作伙伴结盟。

And I think that's really paid off a ton in aligning with the groups who have the domain knowledge, aligning with the best partners.

对我们来说，我们想要的是，我们知道核心技术能为市场做到现在做不到的事情，从延迟、吞吐量到各个方面。

For us, what we wanted out of this is we know the core technology can do something for markets that can't be done right now, from latency profile, from throughput, from everything.

你是在说从每秒几千或一万笔交易，提升到每秒数百万笔交易，而且延迟特性完全不同。

You're talking going from thousands or 10,000 transactions per second to going to millions of transactions per second at a completely different latency profile.

我们不知道的是你们怎么看这个，怎么真正把它投入生产，这就是我们想要的。

What we don't know is how all of you are thinking about this, how you're actually bringing to production, So that's what we wanted.

我们想要的是来自Citadel、DTC等机构的经验。

We wanted the knowledge from the Citadel, from DTC, etc.

这些机构主要想知道的是，这一切到底放在哪里？

What these groups wanted primarily is where does all of this live?

这个问题现在也在不断演变。

And that's evolved right now.

实际上，现在的格局是什么样的？

What does actually the landscape look like?

永续合约会不会作为机构产品进入美国？

Are perps coming to The US as an institutional product?

在代币化方面，这又会如何发展呢？

How does this evolve in the tokenization side?

代币化交易到底意味着什么？

What does it actually mean to have tokenized trading?

这个趋势会持续下去吗？

Is this trend going to continue?

显然，在我们开始这些对话的十八个月里，我觉得已经没人再质疑这些交易量了，尤其是相对于更广泛的商品池来说。

Obviously, in the eighteen months since we've started a lot of these conversations, I don't think anybody questions that anymore in terms of the volumes that are actually being done for a lot of this stuff relative to the broader commodities pool, etc.

那是最初的一批人。

That was the initial group.

目前全球有四到五家交易所已经在生产环境中部署，或者在测试网上测试，并且正在向正式的生产版本推进。

We have four, five of the exchanges in the world are actively deployed right now in production, testing on Testnet, and rolling out towards a real production release.

我们拭目以待，还有很多不确定性。

Will see and there is a bunch of uncertainty.

如果能有明确的规则，事情会简单得多。

Clarity would have made it a lot easier.

CFTC和SEC正在制定一些相关规则。

CFTC and SEC are giving some rules around

那些SEC的规则对你有帮助吗？

Were those SEC rules helpful for you?

SEC的规则确实有帮助。

SEC rules were helpful.

CFTC的规则也有帮助。

CFTC also.

所以，知道需要哪些牌照，知道期货佣金商能不能直接参与，知道是不是每个提供市场的参与者都需要拥有完整的衍生品清算机构，这些都很重要。

So knowing what licenses you need, knowing if an FCM can go directly, knowing like, okay, does every single participant who's offering markets need to have a full DCO?

这一切具体是什么样子的呢？

What does all of this actually look like?

所以在牌照方面有了很多明确的规定，是的。

And so there's a bunch of clarity on the licensing side of things Mhmm.

我觉得这真的非常有帮助。

Which I think has been, like, very helpful.

不过我得说，之前的一些无异议函和SEC新发布的指引之间，还是有一点矛盾，特别是在哪些情况下需要ATS或者具体是什么样的情况。

There's still a little bit of a little bit of contradiction, I should say, between some of the prior no actions that were given and the new set of SEC guidance that were given in terms of where you'll need an ATS or what this looks like.

所以我要说，从监管清晰度来看，一切都在朝着非常积极的方向发展，这真是太棒了。

So I will say it's all moving in a very positive direction from the regulatory clarity side, which is amazing.

这方面取得了巨大的、巨大的进展。

Huge, huge, huge progress from that side.

全球最大的四五家交易所，现在都在积极上线，在测试网上推出市场，做这些事情。

Four to five of the largest exchanges in the world, all actively live right now, rolling out markets on test net, doing all of this stuff.

其中好几家已经承诺要进入公开市场，所以我们会在Atlas上看到这个向公开市场的过渡，我是说公开的。

Multiple of those have committed to going into public markets, so we will see this transition into public markets on Atlas in terms of like I should say public.

直到获得许可进入市场和生产的公开主网。

Until like permission to markets and production sort of public main net.

这个时间表就取决于他们什么时候能获得百分之百的监管确定性。

The timeline for that is just going to be when they have 100% complete regulatory certainty.

所以我觉得你接下来会看到的是，早期阶段，我们现在有20个前端。

And so I think what you're going to see is early on, we have 20 front ends right now.

所以再说一遍，记住Atlas是核心。

So again, remember Atlas is the core.

它本身就是交易引擎。

It is the trading engine itself.

我们不自己运营前端。

We're not running our own front ends.

现在有大约20个前端在开发，基本上就是为了能提供这个服务，成为消费者或任何使用者的前端或接触点。

You have like 20 front ends that are basically building to be able to offer this up and basically able to be the front end or the touch point for the consumer or for anybody who's interacting with this.

所以有20多个前端正在开放Atlas上部署和测试，然后就是那些大型交易所。

So 20 plus front ends were deploying on open Atlas and testing now, and then the large exchanges.

所以我觉得你会看到开放Atlas市场迅速而广泛地推出，然后你会看到机构方面持续不断的进展，包括再次提到，多家美国大型机构即将进入市场。

And so I think you'll see open Atlas markets come broad and immediate, and then you will see a constant stream of progress on the institutional front, including, again, multiple of the largest US based institutions coming to market.

对，不具体点名或透露更多细节，这不是那种“哦，嘿，我们跟着看看”或者“这看起来不错，我们挂个名”的情况。

Yeah, without naming any names specifically or giving anything too much more specific than that, is not like, oh, hey, let's follow along, or this seems cool, let's put our name on it.

而是现在已经在测试网上部署，积极测试，问的是什么时候以及如何把它投入生产。

It is like right now deployed on Testnet, actively testing, saying when and how can we take this into production.

我还有很多问题想问你，但首先，那些买了代币的人，也就是投资者，他们是不是也投资了你公司的股权？

So many more questions for you, but first of all, the people that bought the tokens, the investors, are they also invested in the equity of your company?

这个情况有点复杂。

So there are some splits.

很多人只拿了代币。

A bunch took token only.

有些人既拿了代币也拿了股权。

Some took token and equity.

还有一组人，其实他们最后是代币和股权都拿了。

And one group no, actually, they ended up taking token equity both.

所以，每个人至少都有代币。

So, everybody has at least token exposure.

有些人两者都有，但最大的两笔投资只拿了代币。

Some have exposure to both, but the largest two checks were token only.

好的，有意思。

Okay, interesting.

所以我觉得，既然我们已经聊了Atlas，那接下来就进入下一个问题吧。

And so I think maybe let's lead into the next question now that we've talked about Atlas.

你已经把整个基础设施都建好了。

You have this entire infrastructure built.

那0代币在这个生态系统里扮演什么角色呢？

Where does the 0 token fit into the ecosystem?

关于费用开关什么时候开启，大家讨论得很多。

There's been a lot of talk around like, when is the fee switch gonna come on?

虽然大家普遍持正面态度，但法定人数一直达不到。

It's overwhelmingly positive, but quorum never gets reached.

我的意思是，这里的计划到底是什么呢？

I mean, what's what's the plan here?

对。

Yep.

那我现在就尽量把这件事说清楚。

So try to just make it super clear now.

所以LayerZero，这个协议，消息传递协议，有费用开关。

So LayerZero, the protocol, messaging protocol, has the fee switch.

费用开关，再说一次，每次投票都压倒性地支持，看起来会被开启。

The fee switch, again, every vote overwhelmingly positive seems like that will be turned on.

我心里大概有个数，我觉得在接下来的十八个月内，你差不多可以期待那个时间框架。

I've sort of mentally said, I think within the next eighteen months, I think you're sort of, like, looking at that time frame for that.

对于ZERO来说，就是非常明确。

For ZERO, it's just, like, very clear.

0，z r 0，是链的原生燃料代币。

0, z r 0 is the native gas token of the chain.

所以所有优先费用，所有区块空间，所有关于燃料的东西，都是直接用0。

So all priority fees, all block space, all everything in terms of gas is 0 directly.

Atlas本身有内置的一套交易费用。

Atlas itself has your embedded set of trading fees.

其中一部分会给到提供这个服务的前端。

A bunch of that goes to the front end who is offering this up.

然后在那之后，剩下的75%会直接用来购买并销毁ZERO。

And then after that, 75% of the remainder goes directly just to buying and burning 0.

所以你可以把它看作是一种费用。

And so you should think about this at like of an edit.

如果费用结构和现在市场上的差不多，那么平台上每交易一美元，大约有1.2个基点直接用于购买和销毁ZERO。

If the fee schedule matches sort of what is in market today, this should be about, call it 1.2 basis points of every dollar traded on platform just goes directly to buying and burning zero.

那这样一来，由于其他成本节省，这个系统仍然会比传统金融系统更便宜吗？

And that's still gonna mean, that system, because of the other cost savings, is still gonna be cheaper than the traditional financial system?

还是说……

Or what's

所以，这还是要看你在比较什么。

So So and again, it it depends it depends on what you're looking at.

比如说比特币永续合约，对吧？

If you're talking like BTC perps, right?

对于更开放、更传统的永续合约，大多数平台的综合平均费率大概在三个基点左右。

So more like open, broad, traditional perps like, yeah, your blended average rate across most venues is somewhere in the order of about three basis points.

如果你说的是外汇或股票，那费率结构可能会很不一样，但交易量可能会大幅增加。

If you're talking Forex or equities, that fee schedule might look very different, but volumes may end up being drastically higher.

所以这取决于你看的是哪个市场。

So it depends on where you're looking for.

但我觉得用基点来算，1.2个基点是我们目前的参考模型。

But I think calling it a basis point, 1.2 basis points is sort of our mental model right now.

这在一定程度上取决于机构市场如何推出，以及费率最终会落在什么水平。

It depends a little bit on how some of the institutional markets are going to roll out and to where that fee lands.

但Atlas本身产生的所有费用中，有75%直接用于购买并销毁ZERO。

But 75% of all fees that are generated by Atlas itself are just directly buying and burning ZERO.

所以这一点非常明确，非常清楚。

So that is, like, very clear and very yeah.

这应该是很明确的。

It should be clear cut.

那挺好的。

That's pretty good.

还有，关于Atlas本身，我想聊聊它可能会怎么影响咱们的观众。

And and and and Atlas itself, I mean, I wanna talk about how it's gonna impact maybe a viewer here.

我现在登录富达或者罗宾汉，然后做一笔交易，感觉确实挺顺畅的。

When I go log on to Fidelity or I go log on to Robinhood and I and I make a trade, it does feel pretty seamless for me right now.

就是说，这个体验其实没什么大问题，除了我卖股票的时候，资金要两天才能到账。

Like there's not a ton of, you know, there's not a ton of badness, let's say, with with with this experience other than the fact that some when I sell a stock, it takes two days for the cash to sell to my account.

这点挺烦人的。

That's quite annoying.

那Atlas会怎么改善这些传统体验呢？如果它真的能改善的话。

But what what is Atlas gonna do to make those traditional experiences better, if if anything?

比如说，你们会不会成为富达的后端，或者某个券商的后端？

Like, are you ever gonna have are you ever gonna be the back end to a Fidelity, the back end to to to a brokerage?

世界会往这个方向发展吗？

Is that the way the world's going?

是的。

So, yes.

确实，很多类似名字的公司都在积极参与这个问题。

Definitely, multiple of sort of names, similar names, etcetera, are, like, actively involved in the question.

如果你看看稳定币，会发现很有意思。

If you look at stablecoins, very interesting to see.

说实话，国内稳定币的使用比国际落后了将近十年，真正的落地应用方面。

Domestic stablecoin use has trailed international stablecoin use by almost a decade now, honestly, in terms of real traction.

现在，你才开始看到一些起色。

Now, just now, you're starting to see a traction.

你开始看到银行担心稳定币可能对它们的存款基础造成影响，这也是为什么代币化银行存款被大力推动，以及代币化会走向何方等等。

You're starting to see sort of the banks are worried about that's why tokenized bank deposits are being pushed so heavily about what stablecoins might do to the deposit base of banks and what this actually looks like and where tokenization moves, etcetera.

而在国际上，已经有超过5亿用户，稳定币规模达到3000亿美元。

Whereas internationally, have 500,000,000 plus users, you have $300,000,000,000 worth of stablecoins.

过去六年里，它们增长了60多倍，同时现实世界资产（RWA）也增长了约2000倍。

They've grown 60 plus x in the last six years alongside RWAs, which have grown like 2000x in the last six years.

所以我认为，你会看到国际上发生很多事情，这些已经开始对国内形成压力。

And so I think you're going to see a bunch of stuff happen internationally that has started to put pressure on the domestic side.

比如说DTCC。

So you take DTCC.

DTCC有直接的任务，要把价值一百万亿的资产代币化。

DTCC has direct mandate to tokenize $100,000,000,000,000 worth of assets.

这个任务听起来有点疯狂，但仔细想想，确实有大量的资产基础要被代币化。

It was completely unhinged as a mandate when you think about it of, Okay, actually a huge amount of asset base is going to be tokenized.

这方面已经有进展了。

There is movement in this way.

然后问题就是，这到底会是什么样子？

And then the question is, What does it actually look like?

所以我觉得，当你和机构交流时，现在有两件事立刻引起关注。

So I think when you talk to the institutions, there are two things that are immediately interesting right now.

一个是永续合约这种产品。

One is perps as a product.

永续合约作为一种工具，在国际上已经产生了很大的影响，而且它带来的交易量现在变得非常可观。

Purps as an instrument and what it has done internationally and the volumes that it's generating now become very interesting.

那同样的问题就是，永续合约作为产品在美国会是什么情况？

Then the same so is that like what perps as a product within The United States?

它大概会落在哪个领域？

What where sort of like, where does that live?

会是什么样子？

What does that look like?

然后第二个问题是，有没有可能广泛地改变现有的模式？

And then the second is, like, is there room to change the existing model broadly?

比如，更国际化一些。

Like, touch more international.

你看像ICE，它在全球有六个清算所。

You look at something like ICE has six clearing houses that span around the globe.

客户需要在所有六个清算所里都存放资金。

Customers need to keep sort of funds in all six of them.

你知道，如果谈的是一个统一的系统，能处理结算、清算、匹配和信用，光主经纪商业务就有500亿美元的市场，对吧？

Have you know, if you're talking about a single stack that does settlement and clearing and matching and credit, prime brokerages alone is $50,000,000,000 business, right?

对大多数机构来说，成本结构开始变得很难忽视了。

The cost structure starts to become pretty hard to ignore for most groups.

你看看现在的永续合约产品，再看看一些交易平台相对于传统交易所赚了多少钱。

You look at perps as a product right now and how much some of the venues are making relative to traditional exchanges.

他们只是按交易量的基点收费，但利润却占了传统交易所净利润的两位数百分比。

It's just like they're doing basis points of the volume overall, but making double digit percentages of the net profit of the trad exchanges.

我觉得有很多有趣的事情正在发生，也在推进中。

I think there's a bunch of stuff that is interesting and in flight and happening.

直接回答这个问题，券商会不会开放这些？

To answer the question directly, are brokerages going to open this up?

是不是真的会有传统交易所在这条轨道上推出代币化产品、永续合约等，提供给主流券商？

Is it actually you're gonna have, like, Trad exchanges opening up tokenized products, perps, etcetera, on these rails to your normal mainstream brokers?

百分之百会。

Like, 100%, yes.

这一定会发生。

That is going to happen.

用户真的会看到并注意到吗？

The user ever actually see it and notice?

谁知道呢，走着瞧吧。

Know, we'll see.

有多少会被抽象掉，但百分之百会发生。

How much of that just gets abstracted away, but 100% that is happening.

好的。

Okay.

那挺好的。

That that's good.

我还想聊聊你对这个行业未来的看法。

Do you I wanna also talk about what you view the future of this industry looking like.

我们确实看到了大量代币化资产上链。

I mean, we've seen a tremendous amount of tokenized assets come on chain.

其中大多数是已经在其他地方交易的股票，它们被放入某种特殊目的载体或代币化，然后在链上发行。

Most of these are equities that already trade elsewhere that are put in some sort of SPV or tokenized and then issued issued on the chain.

在你跟别人聊的时候，你觉得未来有没有可能，比如说公司发行股票，就直接上链了？

In the conversations that you're having, do you think that it's likely or possible that in the future equity like, if a company issues equity, it'll just immediately be on chain?

比如十年、十五年、二十年、三十年后，所有的IPO都会在链上吗？

Like, in ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty years, are all IPOs gonna end up on chain?

还是说这只是为了吸引一小部分想把资产放在链上的人，然后这两个系统会一直并行存在？

Or is this just something to appeal to a niche set of an audience that wants their assets on chain and there's they're always gonna be these two parallel systems running?

我觉得从长远来看，是的。

So I think on a long enough time horizon, like, yes.

绝对会。

Definitely.

所以我觉得这一切的起点是，机构到底在做什么？

So I think all of this started, what does an institute do?

这些群体到底想要什么？

What do any of these groups want?

他们中的大多数，现在所有的代币化基本上都只是一个分销工具。

Most of them, the tokenized all of tokenization today is basically just a distribution engine.

当时有一个足够大的资金池，现在变成了几千亿甚至上万亿的资产池。

There was a pool of capital that was sufficiently large, and it was like, okay, well, now it's multiple hundreds of billions to trillions of dollar asset pool.

是的，如果我在卖高收益私募股权基金，或者卖其他什么产品，我很乐意直接在系统里分发。

Yes, if I'm selling high yield private equity fund or if I'm selling whatever it may be, I'm very happy to just distribute that in the system.

我觉得稳定币在长期采用方面已经跨过了关键的门槛。

I think stablecoins again have crossed the Rubicon in terms of Lindy adoption.

你看看Visa的稳定币交易量，看看Stripe在做什么，看看所有这些。

You look at Visa stablecoin volumes, you look at what Stripe is doing, you look at all of this stuff.

这些正在越来越多地融入传统金融流程，慢慢地但非常稳定地侵蚀现有的系统和我们的传统系统。

This is just getting integrated more and more into traditional flows in a way that is slowly but very steadily eating away at existing systems and our legacy systems.

所以我觉得，再说一次，就目前的代币化而言，除了稳定币，我们比行业其他部分落后了五年以上。

So I think, again, where we are in tokenization today, excluding stablecoins, you're trailing by five plus years from where we are in the rest of the industry.

但我认为很明显，这将会开始发生。

But I think very clearly it is going to start happening.

我觉得如果有一个催化剂推动这些目前分离的组件整合，并且能够以更国际化的方式分发，同时监管框架也随之演变，那么所有这些因素都是非常强大的驱动力。

I think if it is a catalyst that pushes again, a consolidation of some of these components that are separate today that don't need to be an ability to distribute to a more international audience in a way that regulatory framework evolves around, I think all of these things are very, very strong drivers.

所以我觉得，IPO会在链上进行吗？

So I think, will an IPO happen on chain?

我觉得链上和链下，以后就没有区别了。

I think on chain and off chain, won't be a difference anymore.

我觉得这些基础设施，就像稳定币一样，正在慢慢被重新铺设，开始逐渐蚕食现有的支付轨道。

I think the rails are just, again, slowly being replumbed in a ton of this stuff in the way that stablecoins themselves are just completely starting to cannibalize some of the existing rail sets.

我觉得你会越来越多地看到这种情况。

I think you're gonna see them more and more.

我们还没聊到支付这一块，以及其中一些有趣的地方。

So we haven't talked about yet as the payment side of 0 and some of the interesting there.

但我觉得你会看到它在别的地方无法实现的方式。

But I think you're going to see it in a way that just can't exist elsewhere.

所以有很多非常有趣的事情正在发生。

So there's a bunch of really interesting stuff happening.

你觉得这些产品什么时候能上线？

When do you think you're gonna go live with these products?

我们公开说过今年秋天上线。

We have publicly said fall this year.

所以留给我们的时间窗口很窄，就接下来的两个月。

So that gives us a very narrow window of the next two months.

现在就是秋天了。

It is fall right now.

对。

Yes.

秋天，是的。

In fall, yeah.

所以我们正好赶上了。

So we're right there.

再说，测试网已经上线了。

Again, like Testnet is live.

我们现在就在测试网上通过Atlas聊天。

We're talking right now on Atlas on Testnet.

我们现在正在聊的这个版本，已经稳定达到每秒二十万笔交易，延迟低于一毫秒。

We're talking right now, we have a stable version at two hundred thousand transactions per second at sub one millisecond latency.

我们还有一个较小的版本，每秒一万笔交易，延迟是四百微秒。

We have a smaller version at 10,000 transactions per second, that's 400 microsecond latency.

另外，我们还有一个研究原型，P50延迟只有二十八微秒，P99延迟也只有四十微秒。

And then we have a research prototype that's at twenty eight microsecond P50 latency with only forty microsecond P99 latency.

所以机构客户都印象非常深刻。

So institutions have been hugely impressed.

我们收到最多的反馈就是：我们没想到这能做到。

The most common feedback we've gotten is, We didn't think this was possible.

还有，哇，太厉害了。

And, Oh, wow.

我们以前从来做不到这样。

We have never been able to do this.

我们有很多客户，他们把自己现有的工作流程拿过来。

We have a bunch of them who took their existing workflows.

这可以用于代币化股票的数据分发，也可以直接作为链上的交易引擎，比如链上的CLOB。

And this can be for how you distribute data around tokenized equities, and it can be actually just like the trading engine itself on chain, like just CLOB on chain.

在这两种情况下，他们的性能都比以前提升了数百到数千倍。

In both of them, they're quoting hundreds to thousands of times X more performance than what they had before.

所以我觉得我们现在状态很好。

And so I think we're like, we feel we're in a great state right now.

我们现在在讨论合作伙伴是否想向公众开放测试网，让大家来试用。

We're talking now whether partners want to open up Test Net to the public and people can come and play with it.

但现在，合作伙伴们，所有前端，再说一遍，20多个前端，一大批大型机构，都在进行实时测试。

But right now, the partners, all the front ends, again, 20 plus front ends, bunch of largest institutions, they're all on live testing.

从技术角度看，感觉很好，觉得我们基本上已经到位了。

From a technology perspective, feel great, feel like we're pretty much there.

从发布角度看，就是协调上市，把所有合作伙伴聚在一起，确保所有细节都到位。

From a release perspective, it's just like aligning go to market, getting all the partners together, and making sure there is all of the small pieces.

启动一条链并不容易。

Launching a chain is not easy.

这和发布产品很不一样，你得让资产进入变得极其简单。

It's a lot different than launching a product, and you have to make it just incredibly easy to get assets in.

你得让所有这些事情都变得极其简单，然后还要处理托管方以及所有合作伙伴上游的各种问题。

You have to make it incredibly easy to do all of these things, and then you have custodians and everything upstream for all of the partners that you want that you have to sort out.

所以有很多工作要做，就是为了确保你能有一个最好的发布。

And so there's a bunch of debt that's going through just to making sure you have the best possible launch.

我觉得

I think

你们有什么计划吸引人们上链呢？

What what are your what what are your plans for getting people to come on the chain?

他们说想要。

They say they want.

什么？

What?

因为我觉得你们应该不只是想让机构上链吧。

Because I assume you don't just want institutions on it.

你想要普通用户，想要听这个播客的人，想要推特上的人都来参与。

Want your average, you want the people listening to this podcast, you want the people on Twitter to come on as well.

当然。

Of course.

我觉得一个优势是，我们现在已经有大约1500亿美元的资产在上面了。

I think one of the benefits is we've got about $150,000,000,000 worth of assets today on top of it.

要把它开放给全世界，连接到ZERO，其实非常容易。

It's very easy to open that up to the world and connect to ZERO.

所以我觉得引入资产会相当简单。

So I think getting assets in will be quite easy.

我觉得对于更大的用户群体来说，体验会是无缝的。

I think when you're talking about your larger For any user, it's gonna be seamless.

可以是钱包，也可以是桥接，都会很方便。

It can be a wallet, a bridge, it's gonna be easy.

你只需要存入就行。

You'll just deposit.

这不会是个问题。

It will be a non factor.

对于大型机构、基金经理，以及那些经常使用Fireblocks等托管服务的用户来说，只要把基础设施都搭建好，对他们来说就会非常顺畅和简单。

When you're talking about your larger institutional groups, your fund managers, anybody who is, again, using regular users of custodians of Fireblocks, etcetera, where it's just getting all of the infrastructure set up for that to be just very seamless and easy for them.

关键是要让交易所加入进来。

It is getting the exchanges on board.

就是要让各方面都尽可能简单。

It's getting sort of everything across the board, just make it as easy as possible.

但对最终用户来说，真的会很简单。我们过去六年一直在让这些东西变得无缝。

But for the end user, it's gonna be really We've spent the last six years making this stuff seamless.

存入资金会非常容易。

It will be very trivial to deposit.

Bryan，我对这次发布感到非常兴奋。

Bryan, I'm super excited for the launch.

我是说，你在这里听到了。

I mean, you heard it here.

我们九月份就要上线了。

We're launching in September.

这会很有趣，非常感谢你今天抽出时间和我聊天。

It's gonna it's gonna be it's gonna be fun, and I really appreciate you spending the time to talk with me today.

希望大家都看到了。

And, hopefully, everyone found it.

我觉得这次对话很棒。

I think this was a great conversation.

我自己真的非常享受，而且我一定会去好好研究一下LayerZero。

I really, really enjoyed it myself, and I'm gonna definitely be poking around LayerZero.

所以谢谢你，Brian。

So thank you, Brian.

非常感谢。

Appreciate

非常感谢你。

Thank you very much.

我期待在不久的将来，能再来这里，然后说，好吧，那些我之前不能提的名字，现在都在这里了。

I'm looking forward to, you know, in another short period here being able to come and like, alright, all those names I couldn't mention, like, here they all are.

我们来聊聊

Let's talk

这个吧。

about it.

等你能更公开地谈论这些事情时，我们得再请你来一次，因为有一件事我特别想深入聊聊，我是说，我们可能可以专门做一整期节目来讨论你和这些人的交流、你的收获，以及你觉得有趣的地方，因为我觉得很多人真的不了解现在幕后正在发生什么。

We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna have to have you back on once you can talk more publicly about these things because one thing I do wanna get into, I mean, we could probably do a whole episode on your discussions and learnings and what you found interesting from all these all these people because, I mean, I think a lot of people just don't understand what's going on behind the scenes right now.

所以等你能谈论这些的时候，我们得再请你来。

So we'll have to have you back on once you can talk about it.

非常深入，非常细节。

Deep, deep in the weeds.

很期待。

Looking forward to it.

是的，Bryan。

Yeah, Bryan.

我的意思是，这简直太疯狂了。

I mean, it's like the it's it's just crazy.

自从我们第一次接触加密货币以来，世界已经发生了翻天覆地的变化，所以他的LayerZero。

The the world the world the world has changed so much since we first since we first got into crypto, so his LayerZero.

我们早期做BD，和SushiSwap合作，跟现在把百分之百的时间花在跟富达、贝莱德、NICEE这些不同机构打交道，完全是两回事。

The difference between, like, our early days of BD and doing BD with SushiSwap to now spending, you know, a 100% of my time with with Fidelity, with BlackRock, with NICEE, with all these different groups.

简直是天壤之别。

It's just night night and day different.

完全不同的世界。

Totally different world.

真的很有趣，也很享受，但确实，这是一个很大的转变，而且转得很好。

Has been really fun and enjoyable, but, yeah, it's it's been a big it's been a great transition.

我觉得，这说明我们成功了。

I mean, it's a sign that we've made it.

当然。

For sure.

1000x播客上说的任何内容都不构成买卖任何投资或产品的建议。

Nothing said on the 1000x podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or products.

本播客仅供参考，节目中任何人的观点都仅代表他们个人意见，不构成财务建议，也不一定代表One K X Media的观点。

This podcast is for informational purposes only, and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of one k x media.

我们的主持人、嘉宾以及One K X团队可能持有所讨论的公司基金或项目的头寸。

Our hosts, guests, and the one k x team may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed.