Louis C.K. on Writing His First Novel and Returning to Stage | 2 Bears, 1 Cave

是的。

Yeah.

在她旁边哭啊之类的，你知道的。

Crying next to her or something, you know.

我真想赶紧读一读这个。

So I can't wait to read this.

我觉得你会喜欢这一段。

I think you'll like that one.

我特别喜欢。

I really enjoy it.

好吧，我跟你说啊。

Okay, I'll tell you what man.

我一读就陷进去了，完全跟着故事走。

So I was in right away like I'm reading it and just like following the story.

但当你读文学作品或者剧本的时候，脑子里总会不自觉地想象角色的样子，你知道的，就是自动脑补演员。

But when you read think when you read literature or a script, your mind has a has a tendency to cast, you know, you cast.

当然。

Sure.

对吧？

Right?

所以有时候你读东西的时候，脑子里会不自觉地浮现出一个虚构的面孔和人物。

And so sometimes when you read something, your mind conjures up kind of a fictional face and a person.

有时候读到某些内容，不知怎么的，你会联想到某个演员，心里就想：哦，这角色就该是他。

Sometimes you read something and you for some reason you cast like an actor, like you somebody comes in, go that's how you imagine it.

是的。

Yeah.

还有些情况，你会把真实的人代入进去，我读这本书的时候就忍不住这样。

And then in some cases you put like a real person in it and man, I couldn't help as I'm reading this.

我把他想象成了我大儿子。

I cast it with my eldest son.

天哪，真没想到。

Oh my God, wow.

那感觉太真实了，我读的时候都哭了，因为脑子里一出现我儿子的样子，就再也挥不掉了，根本没法换成别人。

And that was, it made it like I mean I cried reading it because I was I was like picturing my for some reason like you know once that happened you can't get it out of your like I couldn't shift it to another person.

天哪。

Woah.

而且

And

他九岁，身材瘦高，特别温柔。

he's nine and he's lanky and sweet and

就像房间里的人一样，是的。

like a room, yeah.

每次他遇到什么事，尤其是被妈妈赶出去，一个人睡在那些地方，你就会想，他连饭都没吃上。

And I just was like, man, every time something was happening to him, especially like being a, you know, a band, like his mother telling him to leave and and like alone and sleeping in these places and like, you know, you just you're like, he hasn't eaten it.

一想到这个，我就受不了。

Like, it would fuck me up.

真的特别难受。

It was really hard.

但每次有人收留他、他取得一点成就的时候，我脑子里想的全是我家那孩子。

But also, like, every time he had some triumph for somebody takes him in, then he'd be like, and I'm just thinking of my boy the whole time.

所以这真的让人特别

So it was very

写的时候我也深深被这孩子打动了，我真的特别喜欢他。

had an experience like that writing it because I really got to love the kid.

每当他遇到困难，他都会去思考，对每件事都有不同的感受。

And because when he was met with hard things, he analyzed them and he'd have different feelings about them.

他会感到痛苦，但也会从中学习，不是那种老成的领悟，就是觉得，嗯，生活大概就是这样吧。

He'd feel pain, but he'd also like learn from it and not in a wisdom way, but just like, I guess that's what that's like.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我经常听到妈妈们说，她们特别喜欢这本关于英格拉姆的书。

And, yeah, I mean, lot of feedback I get about Ingram is is, like, mothers really like the book.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

他们真的能和这个孩子产生共鸣。

And they really connect with the kid.

他们真的很关心，也很替他担心。

They really and they worry about it.

这本书就是让人放心不下。

It's a it's a Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

这是一本

It's a

让人忍不住替他揪心的书。

book that just makes you worry.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且，说真的，我也说不清楚。

And that, I don't know.

我觉得，当你为一个角色担心时，反而能更清楚地看到他。

There's something, I guess, there's something about worrying about a about a character and it makes you see them more clearly.

这让你更看清他们，而担心确实是关键。

It makes you see them and worry is the right thing.

而且，为孩子担心和为成年人担心是不一样的。

And then there's something about worrying about a child is different.

和担心成年人相比，这完全是两回事。

It's different than worrying about an adult.

确实如此。

It is.

这里有个问题，第二本书就提出了：人什么时候从我们该负责的对象，变成了‘随他去吧’？

There's like this question and I sort of, it's the second book asks this question is like, when does somebody go from being our responsibility as humans to being on fuck them?

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

对。

Yeah.

比如孩子一出生，大家就特别关注孩子的权利，觉得社会对孩子的责任重大。

Like when someone, kid is born, people are so invested in the rights of a child or the social responsibility for a child is a big deal.

从一开始我们就想弄清楚，他们到底什么时候才算真正成形？

All the way back to, we wanna make sure we know when they become, you know?

堕胎争议会一直持续下去，因为每个人都在问：什么时候才算真正重要？

Abortion debate will go on forever and ever because everybody's wondering when does it become important?

对。

Yeah.

我们到底从什么时候开始对一个人负起责任？

When do we become responsible for someone?

是的。

Yeah.

这种责任是从什么时候开始的？

When does that responsibility start?

它什么时候才不再只是父母的事？

When does it stop being just their parents?

那什么时候他们

And become When do

成为需要被保护的对象呢？

they become a protectorate?

或者说，成为应该被守护的人？

Or I guess somebody to be protected.

对。

Uh-huh.

但那条第二条线在哪里？

But then where's that second line?

什么时候他们可以被剥夺生命？

When do they fuck them?

什么时候我们才能真正结束他们的生命？

When when can we actually kill them?

是的。

Yeah.

什么时候才能合法地杀了他们？

When can when when is it okay to kill them?

因为他们属于我们这一边，或者站在了那条线的这边。

Because they're one of us or they're on this side of that line.

对。

Yeah.

男孩确实是这个光谱中特别敏感的一环。

And boy, a boy is a really is a very tender part of that spectrum.

男孩们身体开始发育，容易惹出麻烦，你知道的。

A boy, because boys start to flex their bodies a little bit more and boys can wreak havoc, you know?

是啊， definitely。

Yeah, oh, for sure.

但他们也很脆弱、需要保护。

But also they're tender and they're vulnerable.

所以这成了每个人的问题。

So it's a problem for everybody.

是的，读这本书真的会引发强烈的情感共鸣。

Yeah, And it's, no, it definitely, there's an emotional connection reading this book.

我觉得，哪怕你没有孩子，也能感受到这种情绪。

I think anyone, you don't have to have a kid to feel it.

只要心里有同理心，就会为他们揪心。

I think anyone just has empathy in them, feels for Yeah,

担心，其实就是一种同理心。

a a worry is empathy.

就像每一种情绪，都有一个被放大了的版本。

So if you, you know, it's like there's a superversion of every feeling.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

对。

Mhmm.

比如愤怒，如果你不处理、不表达，它就会变成怨恨。

Like like anger, if you don't work through it and maybe express it and deal with it becomes resentment.

在我看来，怨恨就是没被处理的愤怒。

Resentment to me is like anger that didn't get addressed.

对。

Yeah.

它不会让情绪固化，反而像把伤口烧灼封住，结果就变得污浊了。

So it kinda, not codifies, it cauterizes like, you know, it gets scuzzy.

然后这种情绪就一直闷在人心里。

And then it like sits in the person.

没错，这就是怨恨。

Yeah, that's resentment.

对。

Yeah.

悲伤要是不被承认，就会变成抑郁，就是那种你不肯面对‘我现在很难过’的悲伤。

Sadness becomes like depression, like sadness that doesn't get like, okay, I'm gonna feel this sad.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

当你面对开心的情绪时，可能就会演变成一种狂躁。

And then there probably there's something about if you're dealing with happy feelings, they become like a mania.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

就像这些情绪会被放大到极端版本。

Like there's just these big versions

各种情绪。

of Of

担心其实就是被放大了的共情，你懂我的意思吧？

the feelings that, and so worry is like empathy that just, you know what I mean?

我觉得很多文学作品和电影都是这样，把爱放大成浪漫。

And I think a lot of literature movies and stuff is we amp up, you you take love and you make it romance.

对。

Right.

你把痛苦放大成折磨。

You take pain, you make it torture.

对。

Yeah.

所以，你把同理心放大成担忧。

And so, you take empathy, you make it worry.

写一本关于一个普通孩子、什么事都没发生的书，会很有意思。

It would have been interesting to write a book about a kid who nothing special happens to.

是的。

Mhmm.

生活本身就已经够艰难了。

It's just that life is really hard by itself.

如果你写一个孩子上学、有几个朋友、父母都在家的故事，是的。

If you write a book about a kid who goes to school and he has some friends Yeah.

他照样会过得很艰难。

And his parents are both home, he's still gonna have a really hard time.

是的

Yeah.

你真的能感同身受。

And you could really empathize with that.

没错。

That's true.

所以我一看到那种剧情，比如突然来了一场龙卷风，就会有点怀疑。

So I always get a little suspicious of drama like and then there was a tornado.

但那正是我写的东西。

But that's what I wrote.

是啊，我觉得读英格拉姆的时候，你难免会想，那个年代其实没过去多久，生活真不容易。

Yeah, I think too one of the things you think about when you're reading Ingram is you can't help but go like, Man, that era that's not that long ago was tough to live in.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

那时候他到处跑，别人见了就问，你爸妈在哪啊？

That was just like when he's running into people and they're like, you know, where are your folks?

他就说：‘我不知道。’

He's like, I don't know.

你心里也会想：对啊，这可是你自己写的书。

And part of you goes like, yeah, this is a book that you wrote.

你还会觉得：哦，这种事当时确实经常发生。

You also go, oh, that happened for sure all the time.

那当然了。

Of course it did.

周围都是孩子，别人也会说：‘我不知道。’

There's just kids around and people will be like, I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

当你听到有人说‘没人照顾我’，你内心就会想：那我来承担吧。

And when you hear from anybody like I don't have anybody taking care of me, your inner feeling or mind is I'll just cop to it myself.

我就想：好吧。

I go like, okay.

比如你看到一个流浪汉，可能会给他点钱，心里想着帮一下，但又想离他远点。

Like when you see a homeless person, you might give them money and try to go like this, but you want to keep them away from you.

对。

Right.

因为他们的需求太多了。

Because they need too much.

这让人害怕，实在太多了。

And that's scary, it's too much.

我怕自己被拖进去，会打破我的平静，打乱我的生活。

I'm gonna get dragged into that, it's gonna drag me out of my ego, it's gonna drag me out of my day.

是的。

Yeah.

孩子更是如此。

And a kid even more so.

哦。

Oh

所以我真的做不到。

my So it's like I fucking can't.

比如说我去过墨西哥城的索卡洛广场，就是那个政府大楼附近、游客很多的大广场。

I mean if you go to another, like I remember going to being in Mexico City once in the Zocalo, the the the it's a big plaza where the government buildings are and a lot of tourists go there.

对。

Mhmm.

那儿的孩子会跑来向游客要钱。

So children come there to get money from them.

有些孩子就是街头流浪儿。

There are kids that are just like street kids.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们其中一个表演就是喷火。

And one of the things they do is they blow fire.

他们拿着火把，还用一个牛奶罐装满汽油。

So what they do is they have these torches and they have like a milk gallon container filled with gasoline.

他们就含一口汽油，然后吹出来，火就燃起来了。

And they just take a mouthful of gasoline and they blow on the and they blow fire.

就这么干。

And they just do it.

你能看到他们嘴唇周围有一圈发黑的坏死组织。

And you just see that there is like this bad stain of dead flesh around their lips.

是的。

Yeah.

不管怎样，

And whatever is going I

想象一下，整天做这个把戏。

mean imagine all day Doing this trick.

他们一口一口地往火上吹汽油，火苗还会回烧到他们身上。

They're blowing mouthfuls of gasoline onto a and you see it lick back onto them a little bit.

还有，他们的嘴巴到底经历了什么？我敢打赌，牙齿肯定烂得不行。

And also whatever's happened to their mouths Oh my I bet their teeth aren't great.

不是。

No.

他们穿得乱七八糟的，你知道的，随便什么衣服都行。

And and they're wearing shit, you know, whatever.

有时候就一件T恤，比如费城费城人队那种。

Sometimes it's like a a t shirt, like Philadelphia Phillies or something.

你知道的，是啊。

You know Yeah.

还有，你知道的，那些人根本不是什么正经人。

I And, you know, whatever not them people

对。

Mhmm.

大人们就在旁边看着，偶尔扔点脏兮兮的比索给他们。

Adults just sort of watch and they might throw them some dirty pesos or something.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

但是

But

他们不会主动带你去找能帮你的那个人。

they don't go like, let me get you to somebody who can help you.

他们不愿意

They don't like

嗯，那些

Well, the

插手管这事。

get involved.

处于那种状况的孩子数量多得惊人，简直像野狗一样到处都是。

The volume of kids in that situation there is like so much more extreme that it's like stray dogs or something.

你知道的，你就随它去吧。

You know, you go whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

随它吧，老兄。

Whatever, man.

但每一个孩子都是一段深刻而完整的经历。

But every one of those kids is a whole profound experience.

当然。

Of course.

他们和你一样，是完整的人。

They are a whole human being equal to you.

没错。

Yeah.

所以我想要理解一个正经历这种事的孩子内心在想什么。

And so I wanted to get in the head of a kid who's dealing with this kind of shit.

我小时候的经历就是，我由单亲妈妈带大，她整天上班。

And the the experience I had with it, and when I was a kid, I was raised by a single mom and she worked all day.

是的

Mhmm.

所以我经常一个人待着。

So I was alone a lot.

我们家就在马萨诸塞收费公路旁边，我经常沿着它走

And we lived right near the Massachusetts Turnpike, and I just walked next to it a

很多次。

lot.

对。

Mhmm.

我就沿着那道满是垃圾和尘土的围栏走了好几个小时。

And I walked like along this fence for hours that had like shit, like dirt.

我以前会捡一些破罐子。

I used to pick up broken cans.

是的

Mhmm.

我也说不清楚，我童年挺怪的，有时候我跟妈妈说饿了，她就让我多喝水。

I don't know, I had a weird childhood and we had times where like I remember saying to my mom that I'm hungry and she'd say drink a lot of water.

那时候家里真没什么吃的。

Like there were times where there wasn't like a lot around.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以我们也就那样凑合着过来了。

So we touched that.

那会儿的生活肯定跟现在完全不一样。

And I it certainly wasn't like this.

比我穷的孩子多了去了。

There's a trillion kids that have been poorer than me.

但我一直记得那种感觉——真的没什么东西。

But I remember that feeling of like, you know, there's not a lot.

对。

Yeah.

我现在一个人了。

And I'm on my own.

但我挺好的，你知道的。

And I was okay, you know?

你不会觉得奇怪，问这到底是怎么回事吗？

You didn't you didn't go like, what's going on here?

你就是直接想，现在我该怎么做？

You just went like, okay, what do I do now?

有时候我们比别人更坚强。

And sometimes we're better than others.

我妈妈特别努力，我们上的是一所好学校，你知道的。

And my mom worked really hard and we went to a good school, you know?

我们搬过去就是为了能住得离一所好公立学校近一点。

We we we lived that way so that we could live near a good school, good public school.

但我记得看过一部关于孩子搭火车流浪的纪录片。

But I remember seeing this documentary about kids riding the rails.

我觉得这叫搭火车流浪。

I think it's called riding the rails.

那时候是大萧条时期，很多家庭都让自己的孩子离家出门。

It was during the depression, a ton of families told their kids to leave.

本节目由DraftKings赞助。

This show is sponsored by DraftKings.

你知道感恩节的三个T吗？

Do you know the three Ts of Thanksgiving?

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DraftKings has been my favorite thing in the world.

我们现在在伊利诺伊州的皮奥里亚，这里合法赌博，我这个周六周日都玩得很开心。

We are in Peoria, Illinois right now where DraftKings gambling is legal, and I have enjoyed my Sunday and my Saturday.

简直太棒了，我真的跟你说，这是看橄榄球最爽的方式之一。

It's been amazing, and I and I I'm telling you, it's one of the funnest ways to enjoy football.

一有达阵，我们就开吃。

When touchdowns happen, we feast.

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Download the DraftKings sportsbook app and use code bears.

代码是 bears。

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王冠

The crown

属于你。

is yours.

有赌博问题吗？

Gambling problem?

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Call 1800.

在纽约，请拨打8778或发送短信HOPENY到467369。

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在康涅狄格州，有专门帮助赌博成瘾者的资源。

In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling.

请拨打 (888) 789-7777，或访问 ccpg.org。

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请理性投注。

Please responsibly.

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21 and over.

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Void in Ontario.

具体条款详见官网。

Restrictions apply.

只有投注获胜，才能获得奖励投注，奖励有效期为七天。

Bet must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days.

需满足最低赔率要求。

Minimum odds required.

如需了解更多信息和负责任的博彩资源，请访问 dkng.co/audio。

For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.co/audio.

限时优惠。

Limited time offer.

说起创业，我可以告诉你，这事儿可一点都不小。

When it comes to starting a business, I can tell you there's nothing small about it.

如果你因为要创业而整夜睡不着，我完全懂。

If you've been losing sleep over starting your own business, I've been there.

别再犹豫了，现在就行动起来。

It's time to stop wondering and start doing.

而 Shopify 让这第一步变得简单多了。

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Cha ching!

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前往 shopify.com/bears。

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shopify.com/bears。

Shopify.com/bears.

叮叮，成交了。

Cha ching.

通常他们只会选一个。

Usually they choose one.

比如有个人有五个孩子。

Like somebody has five kids.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他们说，我们养不起五个。

And they go, we can't feed five.

纪录片里有个男人讲了这个故事。

And this one guy in the documentary tells the story.

他说，父母告诉他，兄弟姐妹里他最强壮。

He says, my parents told me my brothers and sisters are he was the strongest one.

对。

Mhmm.

所以你就走了。

So you go.

滚吧。

Get out.

祝你好运。

Good luck.

于是他干脆上了路。

And so he just hit the road.

但在那时候，他们也收留了其他孩子。

But they found in those times other kids.

是的。

Yeah.

那时候有一群一群的孩子，他们聚在一起露营，靠火车生活。

There was like gangs of kids and they camped together and they'd live on trains.

铁路公司根本不会说欢迎，反而会把他们打得够呛。

And the train companies weren't like, oh, come they were like, they'd beat the shit out

他们。

of them.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你懂的。

You know?

所以这个人确实这么做了，而讲这个故事的这个人，正是让我决定写这本书的原因之一。

So this guy, he did but this guy telling the story, this is part of what got me to this book.

他根本没提暴力或者挨饿的事。

He didn't talk about the violence or starving.

对。

Mhmm.

他说，我觉得最难的，就是他这么讲出来。

He said, well, I guess the hardest part he's just telling it like this.

我觉得最难的是，有时候一个人在火车车厢里待上好几个小时。

I guess the hardest part was, like, sometimes when it would just be me in a train car for hours and hours.

然后他说，我孤独得不行。

And then he he said, I got so lonely.

说完他就捂住嘴，再也说不下去了。

And then he covered his mouth and he couldn't talk anymore.

他现在都九十岁了。

And he's, like, 90 now.

到现在想起来还是疼。

Like, it still hurts.

那种孤独感。

The loneliness.

他居然孤单到那种地步。

How lonely he got.

我觉得这就是那个门槛，很多人根本扛不住。

And that's the level I think of, that's the threshold a lot of people can't handle.

是的。

Yeah.

就是当你一个人面对这一切的时候。

Is if you're alone in it.

我觉得孤独这个 epidemic，其实很少有人认真谈过。

I think the loneliness epidemic is one that's not discussed a lot.

毫无疑问。

No doubt.

有时候你跟人打交道，慢慢就会发现，对方其实是个很孤单的人，身边连个能说心里话的人都没有。

Like and sometimes you know you meet people in life and you kind of discover through knowing them that you're meeting someone who is lonely, who doesn't have

对。

Yes.

有很多朋友，却还是没人可依靠。我觉得，当我跟某人成为朋友后，突然意识到——我可能是他唯一的朋友，这对我触动挺大的。

A lot of friends, doesn't have And it I think it it's had an impact on me when I've like befriended someone and then it occurs to me or I'm like, Oh, I think I might be this person's only friend.

这种感觉真的会在情感上深深影响你。

And it really affects you I think emotionally.

确实如此，有时候看到一个孩子，或者一个无家可归的人，需要的东西多到你根本承受不了，那种冲击力是真实的。

It does and it can sometimes have the effect that it does to see a kid who's or a homeless person who needs so much that you can't even handle Yeah.

那种情绪上的负担，真的很难扛。

That can be like that emotionally.

如果我成了你的朋友，你可能会把我整个人吞掉。

Like, if I get to be your friend, you're gonna swallow me whole.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你一无所有。

Because you got nothing.

英格拉姆总遇到那些同情他的人，但每个人都有自己的底线，能帮的实在有限。

And Ingram keeps meeting people that feel bad for him, but they just have a limit on how much they can do.

他们可能会给他一分钟时间，或者让他当晚有个地方睡觉。

They give him a minute, they might give him a bed for the night.

对。

Yeah.

但到某个时候，他们就会说：兄弟，我真的帮不了了。

But at some point they go, I can't do this dude.

对。

Yeah.

说实话，我生活中也经历过这样的阶段，特别孤单、特别孤立的时候，意识到自己成了别人的负担。

And I mean, I've experienced that in life, different parts of my life where I'm really lonely, where I feel really isolated, and where I realize that I'm a problem for other people.

意识到确实如此，

Where I realize that yes,

我就是那个需要太多的人。

I'm there's the needy one.

我对很多人来说要求太多了，我看到那些本性善良的人，最后也只好说：我真的不行了。

I'm too much in need for a lot of people and I see people that are good people turn and go like, I can't.

现在这样太多了。

That's too much now.

因为你需要的太多，他们就得减少付出。

Because of how much you need, they need to do less.

我理解，我自己也做过这样的事。

And I get it and I've done it myself.

当然。

Sure.

所以他经常看到这种情况。

So so he he sees that a lot.

幸运的是，孩子的好处在于他们容易塑造，能够成长。

And luckily he's a the good thing about a kid is that they're malleable and that they can grow.

他们会适应，确实如此。

They adapt and Yeah.

除非他们真的被饿着。

Unless they're being like literally starved.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

就像我们常说的那些话，什么‘杀不死你的让你更强大’，其实没那么回事。

It's like there is no there is you know, this all the things that we say to each other like everything that might nothing that kills you makes you stronger.

是的

Yeah.

不过话说回来，它也可能让你得病，甚至伤到脊椎。

Yeah, but also it can give you like diseases and it can break your spine.

当然。

Sure.

真能把你搞垮。

It can really fuck you up.

是的

Yeah.

对有些人来说，生活并不是零和游戏。

Life is not as zero sum game for some people.

真的吗？我记得你提过墨西哥，突然间我就回想起以前在秘鲁利马待了很久的日子，对吧？

Is so dude, I remember you're talking about Mexico that it hit by just the memory flashback that I used to spend a lot of time in Lima, Peru, right?

每年夏天都去那里。

Growing for my summers.

当我还是青少年的时候，看到拉丁美洲国家和其他地方的贫困程度，真的特别震撼——那种贫困跟我们这儿看到的根本不一样。

And when I was like a teen, it's very eye opening to see the levels of poverty in like Latin American countries and other parts of the world too where you're like, it's not like the poverty we see here.

有一次我在利马某个地方，跟表哥在一起，那时候我大概十二三岁吧。

And I was out at some place in Lima somewhere with a cousin and I'm probably like 12, 13.

一个街头小孩走过来，衣服破破烂烂，浑身脏兮兮的。

And one of the street kids comes up tattered, ripped clothes, filthy.

是个小女孩，大概五六岁，伸着手，我就想，天啊，这该怎么办？

And it's like a little girl, you know, she's maybe like five or six and she's like, know, puts her hands out and I was like, Oh my God, like, what do we do?

我当时手里有刚买的薯条，就全给了她，还给了点现金。坐在我对面的表哥是秘鲁人，他看了之后说：‘干得好。’

And so I had like french fries we had ordered and I just give them to her and I have like some cash and then my cousin who's Peruvian sitting across from me, he's like, Oh, He's like, Good.

我真为你感到骄傲。

Very proud of you.

然后他说，乔治·布什要是知道了一定也会为你骄傲。

And then he goes, George Bush would be so proud of you.

我说：什么？

I go, What?

他说，我们得面对现实了。

He's like I go, We gotta hell.

他转过身，指着那边一片山坡，全是铁皮屋顶的棚户区。

He's like and he's like turns and shows me like this hillside of like, you know, tin roof shantytown.

他说，兄弟，这儿光是这种人就有两百万之多。

He's like, dude, there's fucking 2,000,000 of them here.

是啊。

Yeah.

他居然对这一切无动于衷，你敢信？

Like what he had no reaction to it, know?

不是。

No.

他还说，你刚来这儿，当然会这样。

And he was like, yeah, you just got here.

我明白。

I get it.

你被这景象震撼到了。

Like you're shaken by this.

他当时

He was

说这很正常，你知道的。

like, this is normal, you know.

太奇怪了。

It's so weird.

你该怎么做才对？

What are you supposed to do?

你是不是就该无所谓？

Are you supposed to not give a shit?

其实男女之间的情况不太一样，你知道的，男性和女性的反应方式不同。

Are They you supposed they have, you know, it's got it kind of changes between men and women.

我觉得男性往往会想，嗯，事情就是这么回事。

I think the men kind of go like, yeah, this is what it is.

女性则会更有人情味一些，但问题是，如果你每天都看到这种事，你到底该怎么做？

The women are, you know, have a little more like warmth to it, but it is like, what are you supposed to do if you see it every day?

你该怎么回应？

Like, how do you react?

我记得看过一期《60分钟》，讲的是路易斯安那州的凶杀案问题。

I remember seeing this like sixty minutes piece on, I think like homicide problem in Louisiana.

好像是在新奥尔良那边吧。

It might've been in like New Orleans or something.

那位年轻的检察官非常真诚，

And how this really young and sincere prosecutor,

我觉得

I think

是个检察官，在讲第一个案子来的时候，心里有多难受，打算怎么做，然后接着说，后来案件就源源不断地来了。

it was a prosecutor, was talking about like how the first case comes and how much you feel and how you're going to do and then she's like, Then they just start rolling it out.

你就只能

You just go,

对，好吧。

Yeah, okay.

是不是真的？是的，

Did it did Yeah,

又发生了一起谋杀案。

another murder.

然后他们就像这样，是的，一年后我还是觉得，是的，谋杀案发生了。

And then they go like, Yeah, a year later I was like, Yeah, murders happen.

就像，这只是我日常工作的一部分。

Like, just it's just what I do.

是的。

Yeah.

我曾经想过，人生就像海岸线一样，包含着各种不同的东西。

I was thinking once about how life is about, like, seashores, different things in life.

那种时候，我们往往感受最深。

Like, that's where we feel the most

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，海洋大得难以想象。

Is, you know, the ocean is this is unthinkably massive.

是的。

Yeah.

当你身处其中时，你就只是身在其中。

And when you're in the middle of it, you're just in it.

不管你是坐在船上，还是站在岸上，你都只是在过自己的日子。

Like, if you're on a boat or if you're on land, you're just living your life.

但当你站在海边时，是的。

But when you're on a seashore Mhmm.

你会突然感受到那种浩瀚，因为你正触碰到它的边缘。

You get this wild sense of this massive thing because you're touching the lip of the thing.

对。

Yeah.

你意识到自己并不在海洋里，而它就在那里。

And you're seeing that you're not in the ocean and that there it is.

这甚至能让你体会到自己所住的地方有多渺小，就像仰望星空时那种感觉。

And it even can give you a sense of how big it is where where you live, or if you look at stars and stuff like that.

对。

Yeah.

所以这就像一种边界。

So it's like these borders.

如果你完全沉浸在日常里，比如我住在这儿，每天见到的都是这些人。

So if you're like fully in, I live here, I see these people every day.

而如果你完全置身事外，那就真说不准了。

And if you're fully out, you're like, I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

但当你处在这些边界地带时，你会感到不安，身体都会发抖。

But if you if you when you have those those junctures, you freak out and your body shivers.

我的意思是，你该做的事，不该只凭感觉来决定。

I mean, what you're supposed to do, I don't think is supposed to be based on how you feel.

你不该仅仅因为一时的共情就立刻做出回应。

You're not supposed to just react to your sudden empathy Yeah.

然后就给予。

By giving.

是的。

Yeah.

它应该是别的东西，但我也不太清楚那到底是什么。

It's supposed to be something else and I don't really know what it is.

我也不知道。

I don't know either.

对。

Yeah.

我总觉得自己要是真有道德的话，就该彻底改变自己的生活方式。

If there's always a part of me that thinks that if I was really a moral person, I'd change absolutely everything about the way I live.

嗯，是啊。

Uh-huh.

可就算这样，也改变不了什么。

And then it wouldn't make any difference.

没错。

Right.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

对。

Yeah.

而我这么做，只不过是为了炫耀而已。

And I'd just be doing it as a big vanity.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我也说不准。

So I don't know.

我的意思是，我尽量做到与身边的人相处得体。

Mean, what I try to do is be sort of handle myself well with people around me.

我只能做到这些了。

That's all I can do.

我的意思是，在我所处的这个社会里，大概也只能这样了。

I mean, I think that's With the society I'm part of.

对，这大概就是大多数人能做的最好的事了。

Yeah, that's kind of the best thing that I think most people can do.

如果人人都在努力这么做，这个世界就已经很不错了。

If you're trying if everyone's trying to do that, it's a pretty good world.

这就像零售版的那样吧。

That it's it is it's like a retail version of Yeah.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

我们到底该做什么，从更大的层面来说，比如国家什么的。

The big picture of like what we're supposed to do is countries or whatever.

谁他妈知道呢？

Who fucking who fucking knows?

我的意思是，

I mean,

无论谁想做出改变，都感觉力不从心，根本看不到什么实际的变化。

it's it it feels overwhelming in that whatever change someone tries to make doesn't really have It doesn't feel like anything really changes.

不，没那么多。

No, not that much.

但看到那种情况时，心里会有种奇怪的感觉。当很多人都在受苦时，你很容易就会想，好吧，

But there is a funny thing about seeing that like when there's a bunch of people suffering, you can just go like, well,

这就是

that's the

那种情况。你没法把它简单归结为，好吧，那个人正遭受着巨大的痛苦。

way You it don't boil it down to like, well, that person's in shit ton of pain.

那如果换成是你呢？

And what if it was you?

我的意思是，我奶奶和加沙的一位老奶奶，或者乌克兰的一位老奶奶，本质上没有任何区别。

I mean, there's no qualitative difference between my grandmother and an old lady in Gaza or an old lady in in Ukraine.

真的没有区别。

There's none.

完全一样。

There's no difference.

是的。

Yeah.

他们都有同样的价值。

They all have the same value.

但我可以看着它。

But I can look at it.

我打开CNN，看到有人受苦，就能这么想。

I can just be sort of have CNN on and see, like, people hurting and I can go.

如果是我的祖母，那情况就不同了——要是我祖母遭遇了这种事，我立马买机票冲过去，召集所有人，赶紧行动起来，必须做点什么。

And if it's my grandmother, they're both dead, if it was one of my grandmothers, get the fuck on a plane, go there fucking rally the troops, let's get going, let's do something

关于这件事。

about this.

我总在想，战争对人类来说是多么不自然，它会彻底扭曲一个人余生的情感世界。

Well I always think about how war is so unnatural for a human being to experience and how much that skews your whole emotional landscape for the rest of your life.

一旦你亲身经历了暴行

Once you're a part of like atrocities

而你

and you

活下来之后，你的整个人生都会改变。

survive, I mean you're everything shifts for you.

我觉得你再也不会像以前那样去回应这些事了。

I don't think you're ever able to react to those things the same way.

不，我也这么觉得。

No, I don't think so.

你的意思是，只要你亲身经历任何一场战争？

You mean if you're in one, if you're in anything.

是的。

Yeah.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

是的。

Yeah.

我不清楚。

I don't know.

我从来没经历过。

I never experienced it.

没有，就像我爸爸是越战老兵。

No, just like being like my dad was a Vietnam vet.

他是个特别适应良好的人，别人问他是不是参加过越战，

And like a very well adjusted guy and one of the guys who like, you're Vietnam?

他就会说，是啊，你想怎样？

He'd be like, yeah, like what do you want?

他会讲一些战场上的故事，你知道的。

He tells stories, you know, he's in combat.

但当他72岁那年，有一天我们聊天，他突然说，这是他第一次讲出这句话。

And then when he was like 72, one day we were just talking and he goes, you know, this is the first time he ever said this.

他说，我觉得那场战争真的影响了我。

He goes, you know, I think the war really affected me.

我当时就说，啊？

I was like, yeah?

他说，是啊，我每天都会想到那些战友。

He was like, yeah, I think about those guys every day.

我当时就说

And I was like

每天？

Every day?

每天？

Every day?

他说，每天我都会想起那些牺牲的兄弟们。

He goes, Every day I think about the guys I lost and stuff.

我就问，你该不会现在才意识到这一点吧？

And I'm like, Are you just like, you're just realizing this right now?

他回答，对，我以前从来没认真想过。

And he was like, Yeah, I never really thought about it.

我当时就说，是啊，你确实被创伤了，可你居然花了整整五十年才反应过来。

I was like, Yeah, that's you've you've been traumatized, but it took you fucking fifty years to process it.

这就是创伤的本质。

That's what trauma is.

他说，我每天都会想到这件事，可我从来都没认真想过这一点。

That he says, I think about this every day and I never really ever thought about that.

对。

Yeah.

这就是你一直带着的东西，它成了你生活里不变的一部分。

It's just this thing that you just live with and it's your constant.

然后某天你突然意识到，原来它一直都在——我不清楚是什么让他突然明白了。

And all of a sudden you go, oh this has been been here because you get I don't know what made I wonder what made him Yeah.

意识到这一点。

Realize it.

也许是因为他快死了，所以开始回想这些事。

Maybe because he was dying so he started to think about things Yeah.

更准确地说

More like

是的

Yeah.

他死了？

He die?

他去世了。

He died.

是的

Yeah.

他去世了。

He died.

抱歉。

Sorry.

是的

Yeah.

这就是生活吧。

Well, that's the way it goes.

对。

Yeah.

真希望我的也能这样。

Wish mine would.

还硬朗着呢，是啊。

Still kicking, Yeah.

他现在在医院，我本不该这么说，但是……

He's in the hospital right now, so I shouldn't say that, but

你的愿望会实现的。

your wish is gonna come true.

是的。

Yes.

一定会的。

It will.

是的

Yeah.

总会有那么一天。

At some point.

这是你唯一可以确信的事。

It's the one thing you can count on.

是的

Yeah.

当然了。

For sure.

顺便说一下，我看了你的新一小时内容，没错。

Now the by the way, I I saw your new hour, which is Mhmm.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

谢谢。

Thanks.

太棒了，老兄。

It's so good, man.

做这个真的特别有意思。

It's been a really fun one to do.

我其实想问你一件事，当初我们刚开始聊的时候，我说我退出单口喜剧去写东西，你说你已经一年半了，根本没在数日子。

I wanted to ask you this because when we initially started talking, were like, when I stepped away from stand up to write, you're like a year and a half and you weren't counting the days.

你说你彻底不干了。

You're like, I'm done with that.

那是什么让你又回到舞台上的？

So how what made you go back on stage?

其实我是在过了一年之后，嗯，开始有变化的。

So I was really I think when I passed a year Mhmm.

因为一年包含了生活中所有的日常、节日、生日，各种事情。

Like, because some about a year because it contains all the routines of your life, all the holidays and birthdays and everything.

我整整一年没碰过这个了。

I did a whole year without it.