事后剖析 | 我渴望了解的母亲

欢迎回到《尸检》节目。

Welcome back to Post Mortem.

我是您的主持人安·玛丽·格林。

I'm your host, Ann Marie Greene.

今天与我一同出席的是《四十八小时》的记者娜塔莉·莫拉莱斯。

And joining me today is forty eight hours correspondent, Natalie Morales.

我们将讨论黛博拉·阿特罗普斯的案件。

We are gonna discuss the case of Deborah Aatrops.

早在1988年，这位年轻母亲被发现勒死在俄勒冈州自己汽车的后备箱里。

Now back in 1988, the young mother was found strangled to death in the trunk of her car in Oregon.

数十年来，她的谋杀案一直未破，直到三十七年后才将凶手绳之以法。

For decades, her murder remained unsolved, and it would take thirty seven years to bring her killer to justice.

现在邀请娜塔莉加入我们。

Joining me now is Natalie.

你好，安·玛丽。

Hi, Anne Marie.

很高兴能和你在一起。

Good to be with you.

嗨，娜塔莉。

Hey, Natalie.

和你在一起总是很好。

It's always good to be with you.

这是一段让我反复纠结的时间。

This is one of those hours that I just kind of went back and forth.

我一度坚信他们找对了嫌疑人，但后来又发现他们找错了。

I was so convinced that they, you know, that they had the right suspect, and they then they had the wrong suspect.

我就像打乒乓球一样来回摇摆。

I just I was ping ponging.

我认为即使对我而言，在报道这个案件时，我也非常矛盾。

I think it even for me, as I was reporting on this case, it was I was very conflicted.

就连我们的制作团队也感到困惑。

Even our producers, we were conflicted.

但这个案件已经搁置了三十多年。

But this case was cold for over thirty years.

所以，关键在于找出哪些新的证据可以在庭审中提交。

So, really, it was all about figuring out what new evidence could be presented at trial.

如果你还没听过《48小时》的这一期节目，你可以在你播客的订阅列表中找到这一期的完整音频版本。

If you haven't listened to the forty eight hours episode yet, you can find the full audio version just below this episode in your podcast feed.

去听一下，然后再回来继续我们的对话。

Go take a listen, and then come on back for the conversation.

黛博拉或黛比·阿特罗普斯最后一次被看到是在1988年11月29日星期二。

Deborah or Debbie Atrops was last seen alive on Tuesday, 11/29/1988.

她的丈夫鲍勃·阿特罗普斯在她未能如约去接他们的小女儿里哈娜时，向俄勒冈警方报告了她失踪。

Her husband, Bob Atrops, first reported her missing to Oregon police when she said she never arrived to pick up their baby daughter, Rihanna, from Bob's house.

我应该指出，鲍勃和她已经分居了。

So I should point out that Bob and her they're estranged.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们已经分开了。

So they have been separated.

但鲍勃在觉得她应该来接女儿后，很快就报了警。

But Bob calls the police, like, pretty quickly after he felt that she should have been picking up their daughter.

他告诉警方，黛比因为理发预约迟到了大约三个小时。

He tells them that Debbie was running about three hours late from a hairdressing appointment.

对我来说，这是第一个线索——很早我就觉得，哦，对，他就是嫌疑人。

So to me, this was like the first indication, like, very early on, I thought, oh, yeah, he's the one.

因为我觉得，三个小时就报警也太早了。

Because I just it just seemed like three hours was too soon to be calling the police.

而且，在我们听到的911通话片段中，他并没有说，我已经找遍了所有地方。

And at least in the portion of the 911 call that we heard, it's not like he said, I've been everywhere.

我去了她的公寓。

I went to her apartment.

我打了理发师的电话。

I I called the hairdresser.

就是觉得那通911电话有点不对劲。

Like, it just something about the 911 call seemed off.

是的。

Yeah.

你说得都对，安妮·玛丽。

All valid points, Anne Marie.

你知道的。

You know?

而且实际上，还没到三小时，因为她的预约在7:15就结束了。

And, actually, really wasn't even three hours because her appointment ended at 07:15.

她本该在7:30到8:00之间回到鲍勃·阿特罗普家。

She was expected back at Bob Atrop's house around 07:30, 08:00.

所以他在那个时间之后不到两小时就报警了。

So he's calling really less than two hours after that time frame.

警方，哦，应该说侦探奥康奈尔，他是最早参与这个案件的人之一，他也觉得这很奇怪。

And police, and well, detective O'Connell, I should say, who was one of the, initial people who was on this case, he he said that felt strange to him too.

这有点像莎士比亚式的说法，你知道的，那句‘抗议太多，反显心虚’，检方认为这些电话几乎是想让警方相信他没有涉案。

It's sort of that Shakespearean, you know, that quote, thou doth protest too much, and prosecutors believe those phone calls were almost to try to, make police believe that, he wasn't involved.

很有趣。

Interesting.

现在他说，在1988年，他曾告诉警察他给其他人打过电话。

Now he does say back in 1988, he tells police that he called other people.

他说他用家里的电话给保姆、黛比的老板以及她的父母都打过电话。

He said he called the babysitter, called, Debbie's boss and her parents from his home phone.

但问题是，这些电话无法被证实，因为他的家用电话记录中没有任何这些通话的痕迹，而且这些都是长途电话，按理说应该在某处留下记录。

But the problem with that is that it couldn't be confirmed because there was no record of these phone calls on his home phone, And they were long distance, so they they should have been a record someplace.

是的。

Yeah.

我应该提醒大家，这是+1 988。

And I should remind people, this is +1 988.

这是俄勒冈州。

This is Oregon.

所以从一个城镇打到另一个城镇，有时可能是长途电话。

So calling from one town to the other town, that could sometimes be a long distance call.

鲍勃住的地方离黛比父母家大约30英里。

Bob lived about 30 miles from where Debbie's parents lived.

因此，所有这些电话都应该在电话账单上留下长途通话记录。

So all these phone calls should have been recorded somewhere as long distance calls on a phone bill.

所以这些电话到底在哪里打的，成了这个谜团的关键。

So it became a big part of the mystery was where are these calls?

我们现在知道他确实打了这些电话，因为黛比的父母和她的继父都确认收到了这些电话。

Now we know that he did place these calls because Debbie's parents did confirm and her stepfather confirmed that they received the calls.

保姆也确认她接到了一个电话。

The babysitter confirmed that she received a call.

那么问题来了，他到底是在哪里打的这些电话？

So the question is, where did he make the calls from?

调查人员认为，鲍勃可能已经犯下谋杀，当时只是想处理掉汽车并处置黛比的尸体，而他在外出时打了这些电话。

Investigators believe that Bob maybe had, you know, committed the murder and was just trying to get rid of the car and dispose of Debbie's body, and that's when he made those calls as he was out and about.

他们在找什么，

Were they looking for,

我不知道，公共电话亭之类的？

I don't know, public telephone, like telephone booths or whatever?

他们四处寻找了所有能找到的公共投币电话。

Went around and looked at all the public pay phones that they could find.

他们试图从这些投币电话中获取通话记录。

They tried to get phone records off the pay phones.

但话说回来，你不可能挨个追踪 neighborhood 里每一个投币电话。

But that said, you can't go around and trace and track every pay phone in the neighborhood.

我还应该提到，鲍勃没有打的那通电话，对调查人员来说非常关键——他没有尝试打给黛比的家。

I should also say the one phone call that Bob didn't make, which was very telling to investigators, was he didn't try to call Debbie's house.

请记住，他们已经分居了。

Now remember, they're estranged.

所以她住在俄勒冈州塞勒姆的公寓里，而他从未打过那个公寓的电话，也从未去那里查看她是否直接回家了。

So she has an apartment in Salem, Oregon, and he never even calls the apartment and never goes to the apartment either to try to see if she ended up deciding to go straight home.

这对调查人员来说非常值得注意。

So that was very telling to investigators.

鲍勃·阿特罗普斯对此解释说，我已经给黛比的父母打过电话了，他们说她没有回家。

Bob Atrops explained that away as saying, well, I had already called Debbie's parents, and they said she had not gone home.

好的。

Okay.

所以，很遗憾，黛比并没有失踪很久。

So, you you know, sadly, Debbie is not a missing person for very long.

不到两天后，警方在一处建筑工地附近发现了她被遗弃的汽车，车内发现黛比的脸朝下躺在后备箱里。

Less than two days later, police discovered her, abandoned car near a construction site, and then inside, they discovered Debbie's body face down in the trunk of her car.

她是被勒死的，但没有遭受性侵的迹象。

She'd been strangled, but no signs of sexual assault.

所以到这个时候，我认为唯一需要关注的人就是鲍勃。

So at this point, I would think the only person to look at would be Bob.

警方很快就锁定他为嫌疑人了吗？

Did did police zero in on him as a suspect right away?

你知道，正如我们经常报道的那样，伴侣、配偶，或者在这个案例中，分居的配偶，绝对是警方首先考虑和调查的对象。

You know, obviously, as we've we have reported all too often, the partner or the spouse or, in this case, the estranged spouse is definitely the first person they consider and they look at.

他们确实搜查了鲍勃家的外围。

And they did search outside Bob's house.

他们实际上检查了他的车道，那是一条碎石和泥泞的车道。

They, in fact, checked his driveway, which was a gravel and muddy sort of driveway.

他们拍下了那条车道的照片。

They took pictures of that driveway.

他们甚至采集了车道和草坪上的泥土样本，因为汽车顶部、引擎盖上似乎有被擦掉的泥迹，而黛比·阿特罗普的外套上也有泥痕。

They even took a mud sample of the driveway and the lawn as well because on the top of the car, the hood of the car, it appeared there had been some mud evidence that had been wiped away on Debbie Atrop's body on her coat.

他们在她的鞋子上发现了泥土。

They found mud on her shoes.

她的鞋子也被弄脏了。

They were muddied as well.

因此，他们试图精确比对泥土样本，同时也在核实轮胎印迹。

So they were trying to match the sample of mud specifically and also trying to verify the tire tracks.

但他们从未能确认她的轮胎印在车道上。

Now they never could verify her tire tracks on his driveway.

在他报告黛比失踪期间，有很多朋友前来探访。

A lot of people, a lot of friends were visiting in the time that he reported Debbie missing.

显然，很多人非常关心黛比，因此警方始终无法确定黛比是否回到过家里，仅凭轮胎印无法下定论。

Obviously, a lot of people very concerned about Debbie, so police were never able to definitively say whether or not Debbie had come back to the house, based on tire tracks.

那么我们来谈谈他们的关系吧。

So then let's talk about their relationship.

我们知道他们的关系很奇怪，但关于她失踪时两人关系的具体情况，我们了解多少？

We know they were strange, but, I mean, do we know anything about the nature of their relationship at the time that she goes missing?

正如我所说，她当时住在另一套公寓里。

She was living, as I said, in this whole other apartment.

她还与一个名叫约翰·皮尔森的男子展开了全新的恋情。

She was also involved in an entirely new relationship with a man named John Pearson.

朋友们说，黛比非常害怕鲍勃发现她已经和工作中认识的约翰·皮尔森约会了。

Friends said that Debbie was very afraid of Bob finding out that she was already dating this guy, John Pearson, with somebody she worked with.

而且鲍勃显然认识她的老板。

And Bob apparently knew her boss.

他们是好朋友，所以他知道这件事也不算太奇怪。

They were good friends, so it wouldn't be, you know, too crazy for him to find out.

但黛比的朋友塔米·尼尔森在1988年也表示，鲍勃·阿德罗普脾气暴躁，据黛比说，就在她搬走前不久，鲍勃曾掐过她。

But Debbie's friend, Tammy Nelson, also said back in 1988 that Bob Adrops had a temper that he had actually, had choked her according to Debbie shortly before she moved out.

而且，她甚至告诉朋友，如果我出了事，那就是鲍勃干的。

And, you know, she had even told friends if something happens to me, Bob did it.

是的。

Yeah.

这绝对是几句著名遗言。

Those are definitely some famous last words.

但她当时正在和另一个男人约翰·皮尔森约会，这让我在观看《一小时》时开始怀疑鲍勃不是嫌疑人。

But she is dating this other person, John Pearson, which is what started me when I was watching the hour moving away from Bob as a suspect.

他接受了警方的询问。

He was interviewed by police.

他告诉警方，德比失踪当晚，他正和分居的妻子及孩子们在一起。

He told police that he had been, with his estranged wife and children on the night of Debbie's disappearance.

但他还提供了关于德比汽车及其后备箱内物品的详细描述，非常详尽的描述。

But he also gave a detailed description, a really detailed description of Debbie's car and what was in the trunk.

而我根本说不上来我现在的后备箱里到底有什么。

And it just I know I can't even tell you really what's in my trunk right now.

所以，记得这么多细节，看起来实在有些奇怪。

So it just seems like an odd amount of detail to remember.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他对后备箱里物品的描述非常详细。

I mean, it was a very detailed description of what was in the trunk.

你知道，约翰甚至告诉警方，一具尸体怎么可能塞得进后备箱，

You know, John told police even how could a body even fit in the trunk,

这有点奇怪，不是吗。

which kind of strange like that.

该说些什么。

Words to say.

他认为后备箱太小了。

He thought the trunk was too small.

所以我问了检察官艾莉森·布朗和克里斯·卢门这个问题。

And so I asked the prosecutors, Allison Brown and Chris Lumen, about that.

听一下。

Take a listen.

约翰·皮尔森当时告诉警方，后备箱里有一个汉堡王袋子、一盒蔓越莓和一个儿童安全座椅。

John Pearson told police back then that there was a Burger King bag as well as a box with cranberries and a child car seat.

关于这辆车，他记得的细节真不少。

Seems like a lot of details about the car.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean Yeah.

这些细节我不认为我丈夫知道我车里有什么。

That's not details that I don't think my husband knows what's in my car.

这看起来像是一个非常熟悉那辆车内物品的人才会知道的信息。

That seems like somebody who's very intimately involved with knowing what's in the contents of that vehicle.

而且我认为我们都知道皮尔森先生曾和她在一起。

Well, and I think we knew that Mr.

皮尔森曾和她在一起。

Pearson had been with her.

他承认自己曾和她在一起。

Mean, admitted that he'd been with her.

他们一直在约会，并且经常待在那辆车里。

They'd been dating and was in that car frequently.

然后，他对尸体怎么可能塞进后备箱感到惊讶，正如我们提到的，尸体是被精心摆放进去的。

And then I think his surprise at how could the body fit in the trunk, I mean, as we mentioned, it was delicately placed in there.

后备箱并不大，要把黛比的尸体塞进去肯定费了不少力气。

It is not a large trunk and that had to have taken some effort to sort of get Debbie's body in the trunk.

但这听起来不是有点奇怪吗？

Does it seem like an odd commentary though?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为他们问他了一些关于汽车及其状况的具体问题，而且他们每天都在见面。

I I think they asked him specific questions about the car and its condition and they were seeing each other every day.

我的意思是，他们不仅有恋爱关系，还一起工作。

I mean, not only were they in a romantic relationship, they both worked at once.

所以他们经常一起吃午饭。

So they would often have lunch together.

我认为他们前一天还一起吃了午饭。

I think they had lunch together the day prior.

因此，你知道，他经常能看到她。

And so, you know, he would see he would see her often.

采访过皮尔森的奥康奈尔警探表示，皮尔森在被问话时实际上非常坦诚。

Detective O'Connell, who interviewed Pearson back in 1988, said that Pearson was actually very forthcoming questioned.

他同意了多次采访，事实上，甚至还接受了测谎测试。

He agreed to many interviews, in fact, and that he even took a polygraph.

他通过了测谎测试。

He passed the polygraph.

因此，奥康奈尔侦探认为，当时皮尔森并没有试图隐瞒什么。

So detective O'Connell felt like it wasn't like Pearson was trying to hide anything at the time.

好的。

Okay.

当时，关于鲍勃仍然存在一些疑问，但真的没有任何证据将鲍勃或其他任何人与黛比的谋杀案联系起来。

And at the time, there's still some question marks about Bob, but there's really no evidence connecting Bob or anyone else to Debbie's murder.

所以这个案子成了悬案。

So the case goes cold.

对吧？

Right?

与此同时，鲍勃继续过着他的生活。

Meanwhile, Bob continues to live life.

他抚养了这对夫妇的女儿，蕾哈娜。

He raises the couple's daughter, Rihanna.

她现在快四十岁了。

She's in her late thirties right now.

你和她谈过。

You spoke to her.

她形容他是一个很棒的父亲。

She describes him as a great dad.

他非常疼爱和细心，还是她三个孩子的出色祖父。

He's doting and attentive, and he's a fantastic grandfather to her three children.

她不相信他与她母亲的谋杀案有任何关联。

She does not believe that he had anything to do with her mother's murder.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，和她谈话当然令人心碎，因为这位年轻女性从未认识过自己的母亲。

You know, it was it was heartbreaking speaking with her, of course, because here's a a a young woman who never even knew her mother.

她母亲去世时她只有八个月大，因此她至今仍深深感受到这份失去。

She was eight months old when her mother died, so she feels that loss still very greatly in her life.

而现在，她说她感到自己失去了这一生中唯一能依靠的人——那就是把她养大的父亲。

And then now she said she feels like she's lost the only person that she feels she could count on her entire life, and that was her father who raised her.

她确实认为他完全是无辜的。

And she does feel like he is 100% innocent.

在黛比遇害数十年后，冷案组的侦探和检察官开始重新审视鲍勃·A·特罗普斯。

Well, decades after Debbie's murder, detectives and prosecutors with the cold case unit start looking at Bob A Trops again.

纳塔莉，我们以前也见过这种情况。

And we have seen this before, Natalie.

有时证据相同，但以新的视角审视，却能发现完全不同的东西。

Sometimes it's the same evidence, but with fresh eyes, and they see things completely different.

新的视角和新技术。

Fresh eyes and new technology.

别忘了，从1988年到现在，已经过去了三十多年，DNA技术在侦破冷案方面已经发生了翻天覆地的变化。

I mean, keep in mind from 1988 now to, you know, thirty plus years later, how much DNA, has changed things when it comes to cold cases.

当时有黛比的那件外套。

There was, you know, Debbie's coat with that.

他们检查了DNA证据，排除了约翰·皮尔森和杰夫·弗里伯格，后者是黛比的前男友，但早已不再与她有恋爱关系。

They take a look at the DNA evidence, and they were able to exclude John Pearson and Jeff Freberg, who was a former ex, but he was no longer romantically involved with Debbie.

然而，他们无法明确排除鲍勃·阿特罗普的可能性。

However, they couldn't definitively exclude Bob Atrop's.

现在，辩护方指出，他们所拥有的DNA量仅相当于大约六个皮肤细胞，数量极少。

Now the defense points out the amount of DNA that they had was the equivalent of perhaps six skin cells, which is a minute amount.

因此他们说，这可能是你所能拥有的最薄弱的证据。

So they said this is, like, the weakest bit of evidence that you could possibly even have.

他们还指出，根据辩护方的说法，由于两人共同抚养里希娅，DNA交叉污染是完全可以预期的。

And they said as well, according to the defense, the fact that they shared custody of Rihanna, it's expected that there would be some sort of cross contamination with DNA.

还记得我之前提到的从车道和车上提取的土壤样本吗？

And remember those soil samples that I talked about from the driveway and the evidence that was on the car.

因此，联邦调查局分析了汽车轮胎上发现的泥土，还检查了从鲍勃·阿特罗普家草坪采集的土壤，指出轮胎上的泥土在颜色、成分和质地方面都与鲍勃家草坪的泥土无法区分。

So the FBI analyzed the mud that was found on the tire of the car, and, also, they looked at the soil that was taken from Bob Atrop's lawn, and they said that the mud on the tire was indistinguishable from the mud from Bob's lawn in color, composition, and texture.

所以这将是一个非常有力的证据。

So that would be a real compelling piece of evidence.

事实上，审判中出现了一整个部分，专门讨论土壤证据。

In fact, there became this whole part of the trial that was all about the soil evidence.

他们请了土壤专家出庭作证。

They had soil experts testify.

但辩护方指出，归根结底，这种土壤在威拉米特谷非常普遍，他们质疑：你怎么能确定它就来自鲍勃·阿特罗普的草坪呢？

The defense said, though, when it comes down to it, it's soil that is so commonplace in the Willamette Valley that they're like, how could you definitively say that it's Bob Atrop's lawn?

是的。

Yeah.

于是侦探们做了一件非常有趣的事。

And so then detectives do something really interesting.

比如，

Like, one

鲍勃当时说法中的一个漏洞，是关于这些电话的。

of the holes in Bob's story back then is about these phone calls.

对吧？

Right?

你所说的那些电话，为什么没有任何记录？

How come there's no record of these phone calls you say you made?

所以他们在2022年再次对他进行了访谈，又问他关于那个夜晚和他打过的电话。

So they reinterview him in 2022, and they ask him again about that night and the phone calls he made.

但这一次，他给出了一个之前从未提及的新说法。

But this time, he's got a different story that he didn't tell them the first time around.

没错。

Right.

所以鲍勃是个销售员，当时他就是这样。

So so Bob is a salesman, and so at the time, he was.

现在他告诉侦探，这么多年过去了，那些电话之所以没有记录，是因为他当时用的是MCI电话卡。

So his now he's telling detectives, you know, all these years later, well, those phone calls weren't there because I used an MCI calling card to make those calls.

而检察官们却说：不对。

And the prosecutors are like, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这根本说不通。

That just doesn't add up.

因为使用这种电话卡拨打电话时，你必须输入一个16位的密码。

Because when you make a call using these calling cards, then you have to punch in this code, the 16 digit code.

这听起来不像一个焦急的丈夫在拨打911。

It just didn't sound like the act of a frantic husband who's calling 911.

但难道他真的坐在那里，一个一个地输入密码来拨打这些电话吗？

But then also is he, like, sitting there punching in the code to to, you know, just try to make these calls?

这对检察官来说完全说不通。

It it just didn't add up to the prosecutors.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

The it makes a lot of sense.

然而，辩护方在庭审中提出了一位证人，称当时设备可能存在故障，并未记录下该地区所有来电。

The defense, however, presented somebody at the trial who said that the equipment could have been faulty at the time, and it didn't necessarily record all the calls that came through in the area.

好的。

Okay.

但最终，侦探们还是逮捕了他。

But, ultimately, detectives do arrest him.

对吧？

Right?

他于2023年3月因黛比的谋杀案被逮捕。

He's arrested in March 2023, for Debbie's murder.

那其他嫌疑人呢？

What about the other suspects, though?

因为我得告诉你，当我观看时，最初那个电话确实让我感到不安。

Because I gotta tell you, when I was watching, yes, initially, the phone call was it was troubled me.

但后来我想，那约翰呢？

But later on, I thought, well, what about John?

我的意思是，还有其他人。

I mean, there are other people.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你知道，杰夫·弗雷伯格，我认为，奥康奈尔侦探基本上认定他不是嫌疑人。

You know, Jeff Freberg, I think, detective O'Connell, they pretty much figured he was not a person of interest.

此外，来自实验室的DNA证据，即黛比·阿特罗普外套上的混合DNA，排除了约翰·皮尔森。

Also back from the lab, the DNA evidence, the mixture, from the coat from from Debbie Atrop's coat excluded John Pearson.

然而，关于约翰·皮尔森，有趣的是，他 apparently 搬到了亚利桑那州，在鲍勃·阿特罗普审判前五天，两名警察出现在他住的拖车外。

However, what was interesting about John Pearson, he had apparently moved to Arizona and was living in a trailer when five days before Bob Atrop's trial, two police officers show up outside the trailer.

他们就在那里。

They are out there.

他们说我们在这儿。

They're saying we're here.

我们想跟你谈谈。

We wanna talk to you.

约翰·皮尔森望向窗外，看到他们后，就自杀了。

John Pearson looks out the window, sees them, and then kills himself.

对我来说，我当时想，等等。

See, for me, that was I I thought, wait a minute.

你为什么要这么做？

Why would you do that?

对吧？

Right?

你到底想隐瞒什么？

What are you trying to hide?

对。

Right.

根据检方的说法，他有一起酒驾记录，似乎当时正被传唤出庭。

According to the prosecution, he had a DUI, apparently, that he was, wanted in court for.

听一下。

Take a listen.

他当时有一个未结的刑事案件。

He had an open criminal case.

我认为他以为他们来是为抓捕他关于这项轻罪的传票，于是选择了自杀。

I believe he he thought they were there to arrest him for this misdemeanor warrant and and took his life.

检方还提到，他的家人说他打算作证指控鲍勃·阿特罗普斯。

The prosecution also noted his family said he wanted to testify against Bob Atrops.

我们并不清楚他当时心里到底在想什么，但调查人员和检察官都坚信，没有任何证据指向约翰·皮尔森，所有证据都明确指向鲍勃·阿特罗普斯。

We don't really know what was going on in his mind at the time, but investigators and the prosecutors truly believe there is no evidence that points to John Pearson in this case, that all the evidence squarely pointed at Bob Atrops.

所以当鲍勃被逮捕时，他的女儿里希娅完全措手不及。

So when Bob is arrested, though, his daughter, Rihanna, is completely blindsided.

是的。

Yeah.

里希亚，你知道，她对整个过程感到非常难过。

Rihanna, you know, she's just been so upset at the entire process.

她说，那天早上五点接到电话，告诉她父亲鲍勃·阿特罗普斯被逮捕了。

She said, you know, she got a call at 5AM that morning telling her that her father, Bob Atrops, had been arrested.

除此之外，她说在庭审中，他们一直叫她‘里希亚’，而不是她名字的正确发音。

Beyond that, she says that at trial, they kept calling her Rihanna instead of Rihanna, which is how her name is pronounced.

她从未得到过受害者援助人员，而黛比的哥哥和继父却都有受害者援助人员在身边。

She was never given a victim's advocate, whereas Debbie's brother and stepfather had a victim's advocate at their side.

以下是她的一些更多说法。

Here's a little bit more of what she had to say.

检方在庭审中把我描绘成我妈妈生命中最重要的人。

The prosecution stood there in trial and made me out to be the most important thing in my mom's life.

我是她的宝贝女儿，但检方从未这样对待过我。

I'm her baby, her daughter, but the prosecution never treated me as such.

所以我去问了检察官这件事。

So I asked the prosecutors about that.

我直接问了他们。

I I asked the point blank.

我的意思是，他们对自己对待她的做法有什么感受？

I mean, how did they feel about how they treated her?

以下是他们的回应。

And here's what they had to say.

在审判期间，里希·安告诉过我们，你们办公室从未有受害者援助人员联系过她。

And and during the trial, Rihanna told us that she was not contacted by a victim's advocate from your office.

是的。

Mhmm.

尽管这里明明是她的母亲被谋杀了。

Even though, here it is, it's her mother who was murdered.

为什么没有？

Why not?

我们有迹象表明，她不希望与我们接触，她站在被告一边，对参与我们的案件或与检方联系毫无兴趣。

We have the indication that she didn't want to have any contact with us, that she was on the defendant's side and that wasn't interested in being part of our case or having contact with the prosecution.

这是我理解的。

That was my understanding.

她还说，在庭审当天，法庭要展示尸检照片时，她事先没有得到任何通知。

She also said that she was not informed ahead of time when the autopsy photos were gonna be shown in court on the day, during the trial.

与此同时，黛比的哥哥事先得到了通知，因为他知道看到那些照片会太难承受，所以离开了法庭。

Meanwhile, Debbie's brother had been informed ahead of time and he left the courtroom because he knew it would be too hard to see.

你对此有什么要说的？

What do you say to that?

是的，我的意思是，我无法想象那种感觉会是什么样。

Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine how that would feel.

再次强调，由于她没有与我们办公室接触，我们很难通知法庭里的每个人。

Again, her not having contact with our office, it's it's difficult for us to sort of alert everybody in the courtroom.

这是我们即将采取的措施。

Here's what we're about to do.

当然，这并不是有意的。

And certainly, that was not intentional.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，有时候这是系统本身的特性，如果你既不是被告也不是证人，那就像是你没有

You know, sometimes it's the nature of the system that, you know, if you're not a defendant and you're not a witness, then it's like you don't have

角色。

a role.

对。

Right.

她就是这么感觉的。

And that's that's how she feels.

她觉得自己在过程中被忽视了，同时也觉得他们排斥她，因为他们知道她站在父亲一边，会全力为他辩护。

She feels that she got lost in the process, but also that they excluded her because they knew she was on her father's side, and she was gonna defend him all the way.

那么，检方有什么样的证据呢？

So then what sort of evidence did the prosecution have?

他们出示了哪些能将鲍勃与这起犯罪联系起来的证据？

What sort of evidence did they present that connected Bob to this crime?

根据检方的说法，最令人信服的证据之一是他们关系中所谓的家庭暴力模式。

Perhaps the most compelling part of evidence according to the prosecution was the alleged pattern of domestic abuse in their relationship.

在谋杀案发生时，黛比的母亲曾告诉警方，鲍勃·阿特罗普斯对她有言语和身体上的虐待，并且控制欲极强，因此她立刻怀疑鲍勃就是凶手。

Debbie's mother had told police at the time of the murder that Bob Atrops was verbally, physically abusive, and very controlling that she immediately suspected that Bob was the killer.

正如我们前面提到的，她的朋友塔米·尼尔森作证说，黛比曾告诉塔米，鲍勃以前曾勒过她。

And as we mentioned earlier, her friend Tammy Nelson testified that Debbie told Tammy that he had choked her before.

我的意思是，这本身就是证据。

I mean, that right there is is is evidence.

塔米还告诉辩护团队，黛比曾对她说，她很害怕鲍勃，尤其是在他们要交接里希雅的时候。

Tammy also told the defense team that Debbie told her that, she was scared of Bob, especially when they had to hand off Rihanna.

就是在那些时刻，那些冲突可能发生。

That's when those moments, those confrontations could happen.

而这正是检方认为当时发生的情况。

And that's exactly what prosecutors believe is what happened.

当黛比当晚去那所房子时，他发现了她与约翰·皮尔森的关系，这为当晚的对峙埋下了导火索，最终让他在暴怒中勒死了黛比·阿特罗普斯。

When Debbie went to the house that night, he had found out about her relationship with John Pearson, and that set it up for that night for this confrontation and and and for him to then, in a fit of rage, strangle Debbie Atrops.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

然而，辩护方认为黛比的说法不可靠。

The defense argued, however, that Debbie's stories were unreliable.

我们听到的是这个版本的鲍勃。

We hear this version of Bob.

但在审判中，有

But at trial, there were a

有很多人在那里支持他，不只是他的女儿。

lot of people that were there supporting him, not just his daughter.

是的。

Yes.

他得到了很多支持，包括他的第四任妻子也在场。

He had a a lot of support, including his fourth wife, was there.

他从2011年起就结婚了。

He's, you know, been married since 2011.

在黛比被谋杀后，他还有过两次婚姻和离婚。

He did have two other marriages and divorces after Debbie's murder.

所以你知道吗？

So you know?

但正如助理检察官克里斯·卢门所说，他很有魅力，懂得如何达到目的，让别人相信他。

But as Chris Lumen, the assistant prosecutor said that he can be charming, and he he knows how to get his way and how to have people, you know, believe him.

但最终，陪审团裁定他犯有谋杀黛比·阿特罗普斯罪，辩护方情绪非常激动，这种情况并不常见。

So, ultimately, though, the jury does find him guilty of murdering Debbie Atrops, the defense was rather emotional, and you don't see that very often.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

事实上，辩护律师阿普丽尔·叶茨情绪非常激动。

In fact, defense attorney April Yates, was very emotional.

她说，鲍勃·阿特罗普斯是一个被错误定罪的无辜之人。

She said that Bob Atrops is is an an innocent person who has been convicted.

当然，蕾哈娜现在成了双重受害者。

Of course, Rihanna is now a victim twice over.

她就是这么感觉的。

That's the way she feels.

她跟你提到了这一点。

She mentioned that to you.

她从未认识过自己的母亲，而现在她又失去了父亲。

She never got to know her mother, and now she's also lost her father.

她在他的量刑听证会上发表了非常有力的陈述。

And she gave a really powerful statement at his sentencing.

我很好奇，当她读出这段陈述时，人们的反应如何。

I'm curious about the reaction, when she read that statement.

那是一个我觉得非常能说明问题的时刻。

It was it was a moment that I felt was very, very telling.

你知道吗？

You know?

蕾哈娜在那里。

Rihanna is there.

她恳求法官宽恕她的父亲，对法官说她和她的三个孩子都需要他们的父亲和祖父。

She's pleading with the judge to, you know, spare her father to to be more lenient in his sentencing, telling the judge that she and her three kids, they need their father and grandfather.

那时，鲍勃几乎从不看她一眼，也几乎从不抬头离开桌子。

Bob, at that point, he hardly ever looks in her direction and and hardly ever looks up from the table.

问题是，他是被内疚折磨得如此痛苦，还是只是个冷漠的人，不得不面对这个判决和现在的量刑？

Now the question is, is he so wracked with guilt, or is this somebody, you know, who's just being stoic and having to deal with, you know, this verdict and now the sentencing?

很难说该如何解读这一点。

It's hard to say how you would interpret it.

我认为这取决于观众的解读。

I think it's up to the viewer's interpretation here.

但作为父母，如果我的孩子说‘我需要我的父母’，我简直无法想象在那一刻不情绪崩溃。

But as a parent, if that was my child saying, I need my parent, I just can't imagine not being emotional in that moment.

当然。

Absolutely.

鲍勃·阿乔普斯被判处终身监禁，二十五年后可申请假释。

Bob Achopps received a life sentence with the possibility of parole after twenty five years.

如果他获得释放，那时他将已经93岁了。

If he is to be released, he would be 93 years old at the time.

蕾哈娜是如何面对这一切的？

How is Rihanna grappling with this?

她说自己正在努力坚强，努力坚持抗争，但她非常难过。

She says she's trying to be strong, and she's trying to keep up the fight, but she's very upset.

而这一切的核心，这确实是一个悲剧性的爱情故事。

And and really at the heart of all of this, this is truly a a tragic love story.

当你看到家庭录像的最初画面，也就是收养蕾哈娜之后，黛比·阿特罗普与那个婴儿之间的情感纽带是多么深厚，这一点显而易见。

It's so clear when you see from the very first frames of the home video, you know, after adopting Rihanna, how much Debbie Atrop's bonded with that baby.

那种爱从屏幕上强烈地迸发出来，让人不禁感叹这一切都已失去。

That love just screams through the screen, and you can't help but think all that was lost.

蕾哈娜说，她每天都能感受到这种失去。

And Rihanna says she feels that loss every day.

而现在，当然，她还不得不面对在这一过程中失去父亲的事实。

And now, of course, she's dealing with having, you know, to to lose her father in the process as well.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这整个故事处处都充满悲剧。

So it's it's a tragic story all around.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

几十年来等待某种正义，但还有其他人认为根本不存在正义。

Decades waiting for some sort of justice, and then there are other people involved who think there's no justice at all.

但最终，我的内心为里希安和她所失去的一切感到痛心。

But, ultimately, my heart breaks for Rihanna and everything that she has lost.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，她是个坚强的人。

I mean, she's she's a strong person.

而且，你知道，幸运的是，她有很多人在支持她度过这一难关。

And, you know, fortunately, she has a lot of people who are supporting her through this.

是的。

Yeah.

听到这个真好。

That's that's good to hear.

听到这个真好。

That's good to hear.

非常感谢你，娜塔莉。

Thank you so much, Natalie.

谢谢。

Thank you.

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