治疗林赛·克兰西

提醒一下，这部分内容包含一些令人不安的细节，包括讨论自杀和杀害儿童的内容。

As a warning, some of this content contains graphic and disturbing details, including discussions of suicide and the killing of children.

所以请小心收听或观看。

So please listen or watch with care.

我们会在节目最后提供一些资源。

We'll have resources at the end of the episode.

我愿意尝试任何方法。

I'm willing to try anything.

我总觉得我对阿普唑仑产生了依赖，因为我在对左洛复产生不良反应后，连续服用了两周半的阿普唑仑和苯海拉明。

I just keep coming back to the feeling that I'm dependent on Ativan after my two and a half weeks of taking it daily with Benadryl following the bad reaction to Zoloft.

我觉得自己上瘾了，而且感觉没人相信这种可能性。

I feel addicted to it and I feel like I'm not being heard that that is a possibility.

我觉得我们一直在用各种药物来对付我的失眠，但根本原因其实是缺乏独立性。

I feel like we are throwing all these different med meds at my insomnia when the root cause is out of independence.

我之前那些焦虑的想法现在都没有了。

I don't feel any of the anxious thoughts I had before.

我感觉完全麻木了。

I feel completely numb.

这是检察官在宣读林赛·克兰西发给南岸医院一名护士的信息，她通过患者门户MyChart发送了这条消息。

That is one of the prosecutors reading what Lindsay Clancy wrote to a South Shore hospital nurse, sending her a message on the patient portal, MyChart.

我们即将结束马萨诸塞州诉林赛·克兰西案第三周的证词。

We are nearly at the end of the third week of testimony in the case known as Commonwealth of Massachusetts versus Lindsay Clancy.

林赛目前正因三项一级谋杀罪受审。

Lindsay is currently on trial for three counts of first degree murder.

这位现年36岁的母亲周二（8月11日）在法庭上度过了她的生日。

The now 36 year old mother spent her birthday on Tuesday, August 11, in the courtroom.

她被指控杀害了她的三个年幼的孩子：5岁的科拉、3岁的道森和8个月大的考尔。

She's charged with killing her three young children, five year old Cora, three year old Dawson, and eight month old Kaul.

在我们上一集关于审判的节目中，我们通过林赛的日记和一位前保姆的证词，深入了解了克兰西一家的情况。

In our last episode on the trial, we got an inside look at the Clancy family through Lindsay's journals and from testimony of a former nanny.

陪审团还通过一次所谓的“陪审团实地考察”获得了更多信息，他们前往了与2023年1月24日事件相关的关键地点。

The jury got even more with a trip known as a jury view to locations crucial to the events of 01/24/2023.

这周，我们通过治疗过Lindsay的心理健康服务提供者，得以一窥她可能的精神状态。

This week, we're getting a glimpse into Lindsay's possible state of mind through the mental health providers who treated her.

检方继续出示证据，声称这些证据证明Lindsay Clancy是故意杀害她的孩子们的。

The prosecution continues to present evidence that they say proves that Lindsay Clancy deliberately killed her children.

他们传唤了Lindsay的精神科医生，以及Clancy家的朋友和孩子们的幼儿园老师出庭作证。

They called Lindsay's psychiatrist to the stand as well as friends of the Clancy family and the children's preschool teachers.

辩护方并不否认Lindsay杀害了她的孩子，但表示她不应承担刑事责任，因为她经历了产后精神病，这使她无法控制自己的行为。

The defense doesn't deny that Lindsay killed her children, but says she shouldn't be held criminally responsible because she experienced postpartum psychosis that took away her ability to control her actions.

辩护方称，这种精神病被她所服用的药物加剧了。

A psychosis, the defense says, was exacerbated by the medications she had been prescribed.

我们一直看到辩护律师Kevin Reddington在交叉询问州证人时提出这一论点。

We have continually seen this argument laid out by the defense attorney Kevin Reddington as he cross examines the state's witnesses.

这个案件似乎不寻常的地方在于，检方和Lindsay的辩护方似乎都在使用一些完全相同的证据，来试图证明他们截然不同的论点。

What seems to be unusual in this case is that prosecutors and Lindsay's defense appear to be using some of the very same evidence to try to prove their very different arguments.

看来这对陪审员来说可能是一个非常棘手的案件。

It appears that this could be a very tough case for jurors.

我是48小时节目的记者艾琳·莫里亚蒂，这里是《个案分析》。

I'm 48 correspondent Erin Moriarty, and this is case by case.

你知道，我做这行已经有一段时间了，我看过很多庭审的全程报道。

As you know, I've been doing this for a while, and I've watched gavel to gavel coverage on many trials.

通常，当州检方陈述案情时，在线观看庭审的观众在评论中都会支持控方。

And usually, as the state presents its case, viewers watching the trial online are supportive of the prosecution in their comments.

但这个案子似乎有些不同。

But there seems to be something very different with this case.

如果网上的评论能说明什么的话，那就是观众们意见分歧很大。

If the comments online are any indication, viewers are deeply divided.

我们一直在密切关注这个案子，上一期节目我们报道了庭审的第二周。

Now we've been following this case closely and covered the second week of the trial in our last episode.

想继续跟进我们的报道，你可以在任何收听播客的地方查看《个案分析》的更新。

For our continuing coverage, you can check the case by case feed wherever you find your podcast.

你也可以在48小时节目的YouTube频道上观看《个案分析》的剧集，或者在Paramount+上搜索《个案分析》。

You can also watch episodes of case by case on the 48 Hours YouTube channel or by searching case by case on Paramount plus.

本周回归的是我们的节目之友、CBS新闻记者莎内尔·考尔，她一直在为电视台报道这场审判。

Returning this week is friend of the show and CBS News correspondent, Shanelle Kaul, who has been covering the trial for the network.

莎内尔，感谢你今天和我们在一起。

Thanks for being with us today, Shanelle.

首先，我想问问你最近怎么样。

First, I wanna ask how you are.

你知道，艾琳，我觉得作为记者，这个故事显然从来不是关于我们自己的。

You know, I think as journalists, Erin, the story obviously is never about us.

我觉得这个案子很难，一个女人。

This one is a hard one, I think, a woman.

我还没有当妈妈，但我能想象，任何一位母亲，如果看到这件事发生，或者在法庭里报道这场审判，这绝对是一段艰难的时期。

I'm not a mother yet, but I can imagine for any mother out there who is watching this happen or covering the trial inside the courtroom, it's definitely a hard a

艰难时期。

hard time.

嗯，莎内尔，现在是第三周了，这场审判让法庭里的每个人都身心俱疲。

Well, Shanelle, it's week three, and this trial has been taking a toll on everyone in the courtroom.

我觉得最明显的是，克兰西，当她的孩子们的尸检照片作为证据呈上时。

I think most visibly, Clancy, when her children's autopsy photos were presented as evidence.

周三，两位法医，如你所知，出庭作证，讲述了科拉、道森和考尔所受的伤害。

On Wednesday, two medical examiners, as you know, took the stand to speak to the injuries that were sustained by Cora, Dawson, and Kaul.

那真是个非常紧张的时刻。

This was such an intense moment.

我准备放一段给你听。

I'm gonna play some of that for you.

你其实能听到林赛在某个时刻崩溃了，说：“我做不到。”

You could actually hear Lindsay breaking down at one point saying, I can't do it.

你指的是什么？

What do you mean by

沟痕？

a furrow?

所以，再说一遍，沟痕就是勒痕，是物体对颈部施加外部压力造成的，而沟痕只是其下方出现的损伤模式。

So, again, the furrow is a ligature is when you have external compression by an object on the neck, and a furrow is simply a pattern of injury that occurs beneath it.

可能是印记，也可能是图案，或者更严重的伤，比如瘀伤或擦伤。

It can be an imprint, it could be a pattern, or it could be more developed types of injuries such as bruising or abrasions.

那伤情呢？

And what what about injuries?

好的。

Alright.

律师，你是想让我休息一下吗？

Counsel could we're you want me to take a break

还是继续？

and stuff?

行吗？

Alright?

艾琳，我重看这一幕的时候都起鸡皮疙瘩了。

Erin, I have chills as I'm rewatching this moment.

我是说，这显然是庭审开始以来我们见过林赛·克兰西最情绪化的一次。

I mean, this was obviously the most emotional that we've seen Lindsay Clancy since the trial started.

她当时哭得特别厉害。

She was sobbing so hard there.

她一直在说，我做不到。

She was saying, I can't do this.

连陪审员都有人在哭，还有一位在法庭里的WBC记者告诉我们，林赛的爸爸全程都在场。

There were juror members who were even crying, and a WBC reporter who was inside the courtroom actually told us that Lindsay's dad was there through all of this.

他也明显非常激动。

He was also really visibly emotional.

之后发生的事是，林赛最后哭着离开了法庭。

What happened after that was Lindsay ended up leaving the courtroom in tears.

她是被推出去的，然后法官两次宣布休庭，就为了让大家稍微缓一缓。

She was wheeled out, and then a judge ended up calling two recesses just to give everybody a bit of a break.

记住，他们这些天一直在工作，可能从早到晚都在忙这些庭审，而且他们之间的紧张气氛似乎也在加剧。

Remember, they've been working these three, you know, probably morning and night during these trials, and tension appears to be building between them.

比如上周四，当考尔的尸检照片出现在证据屏幕上时，林赛·克兰西又明显在哭。

For example, last Thursday, while Kaul's autopsy photos were up on the evidence screen, Lindsay Clancy, again, was audibly crying.

但后来麦克风捕捉到了辩护律师凯文·雷丁顿认为的，控方席上有人说“让她闭嘴”的声音。

But then hot mic captured what defense attorney Kevin Redington believed was someone at the prosecution table saying, shut her up.

我们来听听这个。

Let's play this.

不。

No.

我不想去法官席那边。

I don't wanna go to the sidebar.

我真的不想去法官席那边。

I really don't wanna go to the sidebar.

我得先知道你要谈什么，才能决定要不要告诉你，你懂吗？

I need to know what you're gonna talk about before I wanna tell you that I You know?

他们在播放尸检报告时，被麦克风捕捉到了说“让她闭嘴”的声音。

They got picked up on a hot mic saying shut her up during the playing of that autopsy.

好的。

Alright.

这可不是《使女的故事》那种情况。

This is not this is not like Handmaid's Tales.

莎内尔，你能解释一下当时发生了什么吗？

Shanelle, can you explain what happened there?

好的。

Yeah.

我觉得到目前为止，这场审判中有一点非常清楚，艾琳，那就是这个人（指被告）在法庭上毫不留情。

I think if there's anything, Erin, that's really clear so far in this trial, this is someone who does not hold back punches in the courtroom.

而且，这就是法庭上那个火药味十足的时刻所展现出来的。

And and this is what was this is what was very clear during this very spicy moment in court.

你可以看到检察官们面面相觑。

You saw the prosecutors sort of looking at each other.

他们看起来对雷丁顿的这个指控有点困惑。

They looked a bit confused about what this accusation was from Reddington.

然后接下来发生的是，地方检察官办公室发布了一份声明，他们声称，艾琳，实际上是法庭上某个不知名的人说了“关掉它”，而不是“让她闭嘴”。

And then what happened after was a DA's office released a statement, and they had claimed, Erin, that this was an unknown member of the courtroom who actually said, shut it off, not shut her up.

他们当时指的还是屏幕上那个八个月大的考尔的那些画面，那时候我们正在证据屏幕上看到那些图片。

And they were they were referring to those graphic images again of eight month old Kaul that we were seeing on the evidence screen at that point in time.

不管当时到底说了什么，这确实是个麦克风没关的尴尬时刻。

Now regardless of what was actually said, this was a hot mic moment.

你也知道，这在法庭上挺不常见的。

As you know, this is pretty unusual in a courtroom.

所以法官不得不对此作出回应。

So the judge had to acknowledge this.

他谈到了这件事。

He talked about it.

上周五他在法庭上警告所有人，如果谁不经允许就发言，就会被赶出庭审。

He warned everyone in court last Friday that you'll be kicked out of the trial if you speak out of turn.

那真是个很有冲击力的时刻。

It was a pretty powerful moment.

我们确实有那段视频。

We actually have that clip.

我们在这里播放一下。

Let's play it here.

法庭内不允许发表不当言论或扰乱秩序的言论。

There is to be no inappropriate comments or disruptive comments to be made inside of this courtroom.

如果有人被发现这样做，他们将被立即带离法庭，并被禁止参加接下来的庭审。

If anybody is found to make those, they will be immediately escorted out and barred for the balance of this.

我想把这一点说清楚。

I just want to make that real clear.

顺便说一下，法庭周围都有麦克风。

And just in case you're wondering, there are microphones all around.

所以如果我们听到或收到相关报告，那将会引发严重的问题和麻烦。

And so if we hear if I get a report of that, there's gonna be some serious issues and serious problems.

是的。

Yeah.

所以正如你所说，艾琳，感觉这里控辩双方之间的紧张气氛确实在升级。

So like you said, Erin, I mean, does feel like tensions are really rising between the prosecution and the defense here.

莎内尔，在审判过程中，有时候感觉不只是林赛在受审。

Shanelle, at times during this trial, it feels like it's not just Lindsay who's on trial here.

上周五，我们听了控方证人，林赛的精神科医生，詹妮弗·塔斯克医生的证词。

Last Friday, we heard from the prosecution's witness, Lindsay's psychiatrist, doctor Jennifer Tusk.

但到了周一，辩护律师开始交叉询问，你可以看到雷丁顿在提问时采取了非常主动的策略。

But then on Monday, the defense attorney began his cross examination where you can really see Reddington taking a proactive approach in his questioning.

我们来放一段录音。

Let's play some of this.

你们会先听到控方的发言。

You'll hear from the prosecution first.

她有没有告诉过你，她打算自杀？

At any point in time, did she tell you she was planning to kill herself?

没有。

No.

在23号那天，她有没有说过要杀她的孩子？

Did at any point in time on the twenty third, did she say she was planning to kill her children?

没有。

No.

绝对没有。

Absolutely not.

然后在这里，辩方对塔夫茨医生进行了交叉询问，进一步追问林赛被开的某些药物。

And then here, the defense cross examines doctor Tufts asking more about some of the medications that Lindsay was prescribed.

我们来播放一段。

We'll play some of that.

我想你和她讨论过左洛复（舍曲林）的副作用吧。

You went over the side effects of Zoloft, sertraline, I imagine, with her.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

你有没有告诉她，已知的副作用之一就是自杀念头、行为和想法？

Did you tell her that one of the known side effects is suicidal thoughts in actions and ideation?

嗯，那主要是针对儿童的。

Well, that's specifically in children.

所以我不觉得我提过这个，因为

So I don't think I mentioned that because it

其实没有。

wasn't Not really.

自杀意念，自杀意念，有黑框警告。

Suicidal ideation and suicidal ideation, There's a black box warning.

这些药和SSRI类抗抑郁药都有，对吧？

These whole lot along with SSRIs, right?

是的，成人。

A Yes, Adult.

对于

For

比林赛年轻的儿童和成人。

children and adults younger than Lindsay.

谢谢你，医生。

Thank you, doctor.

抱歉。

I apologize.

你能不能就听我的问题，然后回答是

Can you just listen to my question and answer it yes

还是不是？

or no?

左洛复有没有黑框警告？

Is there a black box warning on Zoloft?

有。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

那黑框警告是由谁要求或规定的，是FDA吗？

And a black box warning is required or prescribed by what, the FDA?

大概吧。

Probably.

大概吧。

Probably.

它基本上是在警告，尤其是对年轻人或年轻成年人，可能会引起自杀念头，甚至更糟，杀人念头。

And it basically warns that especially with young people, or young adults that it may cause suicidal, or God forbid, homicidal ideation.

是吗？

Yes?

是的。

Yes.

而且

And

而且你也知道，实际上FDA已经确定这个风险可能持续到二十三、二十四、二十五岁。

And you're aware that in fact the FDA has determined that that goes up possibly to a twenty three, twenty four, twenty five year old.

你知道这个，对吧？

You know that, right?

我觉得是24岁，我是说他们……

I think 24 what I'll they

给你24岁。

give you 24.

所以你说24岁，是认为有一个分界点。

So with 24, you're suggesting there's a cutoff.

你是在向陪审团暗示，一种能增加24岁患者自杀风险的药物，就不可能增加29岁或30岁患者的自杀风险吗？

Are you suggesting to the jury that a drug that increases the risk of suicide in a 24 year old patient cannot increase the risk of suicide in a 29 or a 30 year old patient?

就一点点。

Just a little bit.

我不认为有证据表明它对24岁以上的人有这种影响。

There's I I don't believe there's evidence that it causes that at all in individuals over 24.

听着，艾琳。

So look, Erin.

我们以前见过雷丁顿用这种策略。

Mean, we've seen this strategy from Reddington before.

对吧？

Right?

这个人不会等着检方先结束他们的案子，然后才开始自己的辩护。

This is someone who's not waiting around for the prosecution to rest their case before he starts his.

他似乎在利用交叉询问的机会，试图在他们的故事中找出漏洞。

He seems her to be using those moments of cross to try to poke holes in their story.

那是他的工作。

That's his job.

对吧？

Right?

他基本上是想在检方的主要论点中找出问题。

And what he's trying to do is basically find problems in the prosecution's larger argument here.

我们确实看到他在药物方面深入运用了这个策略，比如他开的左洛复之类的药。

We really saw him drill down on that strategy when it came to medications since he was prescribed, like Zoloft, for example.

说到像左洛复这样的药物，关于林赛服用的药物，已经有很多证词了。

And speaking of those drugs like Zoloft, there has been a lot of testimony about the medications Lindsay was taking.

庭审中有一些时刻，感觉对陪审团来说可能过于细致了，从关于阿蒂凡、左洛复和百忧解等药物的详细讨论，以及它们的副作用，一直到药物成瘾和药物依赖之间的区别。

There are moments in the trial where it feels possibly too granular for the jury from the detailed discussions about drugs like Ativan, Zoloft, and Prozac, along with other side effects to actually the difference between medication addiction and medication dependency.

你觉得陪审员们是怎么消化这些信息的？

How do you think jurors are taking in this information?

这些信息对他们有帮助吗？

Is it helpful?

还是让他们感到困惑？

Is it confusing?

是不是信息量太大了？

Is it too much?

所以，你知道，艾琳，我能理解为什么这里的一些专业术语可能会让陪审员感到有点不知所措，因为内容太细致了，尤其是他们在庭审过程中不能像你我一样去谷歌搜索。

So, you know, Erin, I can see how some of the jargon here can be a little overwhelming to the jurors, because it is so nuanced, especially because they're not allowed to Google things like you and I are during the course of this trial.

对吧？

Right?

但我确实认为这里的细节很重要，而且这类证词实际上可能会影响他们的判断，因为比如说左洛复，对吧，那是林赛·克兰西被开出的第一种药物。

But I do think that the detail here is important, and this kind of testimony could actually sway them because Zoloft, for example, right, that was the first medication that Lindsay Clancy was prescribed.

而且我采访过的一位医生，Erin，说如果你有任何潜在疾病，比如双相情感障碍——林赛的前精神科执业护士曾作证说她认为林赛可能患有潜在的双相情感障碍——这种药实际上可能会让你进入躁狂状态。

And a doctor that I spoke to, Erin, said, if you have any kind of underlying condition, for example, bipolar disorder, which Lindsay's former psychiatric nurse practitioner had testified that she believed, Lindsay may have had underlying bipolar disorder, that drug could actually push you into a manic state.

所以虽然这些内容有点复杂，但了解每一种药物、它们为什么被开、以及它们在2023年1月事件发生前几周和几个月里对她的心理健康可能起到的作用，是非常重要的。

So while it is a little overcomplicated, understanding each of these drugs, why they're prescribed, what role they may or may not have played here, in her mental health in the weeks and the months leading up to what happened in January 2023 is pretty important here.

我们多次提到，林赛的律师凯文·雷丁顿在法庭上对证人相当咄咄逼人。

Now we've seen Lindsay's attorney, as we've said a few times, Kevin Reddington, get pretty combative with witnesses on the stand.

而且在交叉询问中，他对詹妮弗·塔夫茨医生似乎特别严厉。

And he seemed especially hard on doctor Jennifer Tufts during the cross examination.

我想播放他们多次紧张交锋中的一次。

I wanna play one of their many tense exchanges here.

而且你知道这个案件的结果对你诉讼的结果非常非常重要。

And you know that the outcome of this case is very, very major to the outcome of your lawsuit.

Erin？

Erin?

其实我并不确定。

Of don't actually know that.

所以你明白，如果最终认定你宣传自己是产后精神病学方面的专家，而你只有一个月经验加上住院医师培训，你会认为这是疏忽或虚假宣传吗？

So you understand that if, in fact, it's determined that you advertised as an expert in postpartum in postpartum psychiatry and you have a month experience plus a residency, would you consider that to be negligent or misrepresentation?

我不认为我存在疏忽。

I do not believe that I have been negligent.

你明白这个宣传意味着什么吗？

Do you understand what this representation is?

明白。

Yes.

就那一个月加上住院医师培训，你真的想让陪审团相信你是专家吗？

For the month ending of golf plus your residency, do you really want this jury to believe that you were an expert?

你能这样宣传吗？

Can you advertise that?

我觉得那不是我用的原话。

I I don't think that's exactly the wording that I used.

我想我说的是这是我的兴趣所在。

Think I said that it was an interest of mine.

可能吧。

I may be.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得这取决于你怎么定义专家。

I think it depends on what you define an expert as.

现在他还提到了民事诉讼，我们马上就会讲到这个，对吧，Shanelle？

So now he alludes to also a civil suit in that, and we're gonna get to that in just a second, aren't we, Shanelle?

但很明显，Reddington想向陪审团传达的重点很清楚。

But it's pretty clear the point that Reddington is trying to make for the jury.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我们现在看到的就是Reddington一贯的风格。

I mean, I think what we're seeing here is Reddington being Reddington.

他是在质疑Tufts的知识和经验是否与她宣传的能为Lindsay Clancy这样的患者提供的服务相符。

I mean, he's questioning whether Tufts' knowledge and experience aligns with what she was advertising that she could offer patients like Lindsay Clancy.

所以这里的关键问题是，林赛·克兰西有没有得到她需要的照顾？

And so the big question here is, did Lindsay Clancy get the care she needed?

对吧？

Right?

而且这一连串的提问，显然是想向一些陪审员证明，她被这个系统辜负了，被医疗专业人员辜负了。

And this particular line of questioning obviously aims to prove to try to try to prove to some of the jurors that she was failed by the system, that she was failed by medical professionals.

在雷丁顿对塔夫茨医生的交叉质询中，他质疑了她做的记录，也质疑了她没做的记录，问她为什么没有更详细地记录某些内容，以及为什么给她开了某些可能对林赛·克兰西有负面副作用的药物。

And in Reddington's cross examination of doctor Tufts, he actually questions the notes that she made, the notes she didn't make, asking why she didn't write certain things down with greater detail, and about why she prescribed certain drugs that had potentially negative side effects for Lindsay Clancy.

还有，艾琳，记住，这份证词在这个审判之外也很重要，因为塔夫茨医生也被列入了林赛和帕特里克·克兰西提起的民事诉讼中。

And remember, Erin, this testimony is important outside this trial too because doctor Tufts has also been named in civil suits that was filed by, both Lindsay and Patrick Clancy.

对。

Yeah.

我们来聊聊那些民事诉讼吧。

Let's talk a little bit about those civil suits.

我们现在正处在刑事审判中，但还有其他这些待审的诉讼。

We're right in the middle of a criminal trial, but there are these other suits that are pending.

林赛对包括塔夫茨医生在内的多位医疗提供者提起了医疗事故、过失和人身伤害诉讼。

Lindsay has filed a medical malpractice, negligence, and personal injury suit against a number of her health care providers, including doctor Tufts.

帕特里克·克兰西也提起了诉讼，指控塔夫茨医生对三个孩子的非正常死亡负有责任。

And doctor Tufts has also been named in a suit filed by Patrick Clancy for the wrongful death of their three children.

那么，这次刑事审判的证词对这两起民事案件意味着什么？毕竟它们离审理还远着呢。

So what does the testimony from this criminal trial mean for those two civil suits that are far away from happening at this point?

我们会不会听到其他被起诉的人作证呢？

Can we expect to hear from other people who were named in them?

对。

Yeah.

这有点复杂，而且这些案件会在不同的时间进行。

This is a little bit of a tangled web, and all of this is going to be playing out at different times.

丽贝卡·杰拉达，林赛在南岸医疗的精神科执业护士，这周也出庭了，艾琳，她也被列在这两起诉讼中。

Rebecca Gelada, who was Lindsay's psychiatric nurse practitioner at South Shore Medical, also took the stand this week, Erin, and she's also named in both of these suits.

所以当雷丁顿在交叉询问塔夫茨时提到这些诉讼，我觉得他其实是想提醒陪审团，这个人将来也会面临审判，虽然是民事的。

So when Reddington brought up the suits during that cross examination of Tufts, I think what he was trying to do here was really just remind the jury that this is someone who's also going to be on trial, albeit a civil one.

不过我想提一下，在法庭文件里，塔夫茨和格拉达都否认了林赛的诉讼指控。

Now I do wanna note that, you know, in court papers, Tufts and Gelada, they both denied Lindsay's lawsuit allegations.

而且，顺便说一下，他们还要求把证据交给第三方，也就是医疗事故仲裁庭来审查。

And they, by the way, have also requested that the evidence be reviewed by a third party, a medical malpractice tribunal.

至于帕特里克·克兰西的诉讼，他们也请求法官直接驳回。

When it comes to Patrick Clancy's lawsuit, Erin, they've also asked a judge to just full out dismiss it.

这两项请求目前都还在等待裁决。

Both of those requests are pending.

而且，也许是因为这些民事诉讼还在进行中，林赛在听塔夫茨作证的时候显得更专注了。

And, you know, maybe just because those civil suits are still pending here, Lindsay, you know, seemed to be more observant during that testimony with Tufts.

她当时戴着眼镜，看起来听得很仔细。

She actually had her glasses on, and she seemed to be paying pretty close attention.

沙内尔，我想我可以重申并提醒听众和观众，塔夫茨医生反驳了雷丁顿的提问，那暗示她在治疗林赛时存在疏忽，而且塔夫茨和吉达在作证时都解释了她们为林赛做出那些护理决定的原因。

Shanelle, I I think I can restate and remind listeners and viewers that doctor Tufts refuted Redington's line of questioning that implied that she was negligent in her treatment of Lindsay and that both Tufts and Gelada on the stand explained the reasoning behind their decisions for Lindsay's care.

但我忍不住想，对这两位女性来说，出庭作证、翻看2022年和2023年初的笔记给陪审团看，肯定不容易，因为她们知道当时做的每一件事都会被质疑和审视。

But I can't help but think it cannot be easy for either one of those women to take the stand, go back through their notes from 2022 and early twenty twenty three for the jurors knowing that everything they did back then, it will be questioned and examined.

但你提的这个点很有意思，因为在整个庭审过程中，尤其是当展示她孩子死亡的证据时，林赛看起来要么情绪崩溃，要么就是别过头去，或者低头不看。

But you raise a really interesting point because through most of this trial, especially when evidence of her children's death was shown, Lindsay seemed to go between being overcome with emotion or she just looked away, or she was looking down.

但就像你说的，当詹妮弗·塔夫茨在证人席上时，林赛确实看起来更投入，甚至可能更警觉一些。

But as you mentioned, when Jennifer Tufts was on the stand, Lindsay did appear to be more engaged, maybe even a little more alert.

当然，我们不知道她在想什么，但这确实值得注意。

Of course, we don't know what she was thinking, but it was it was noteworthy.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，塔夫茨和杰拉多的证词，记住，是关于她自己的。

I mean, the testimony from Tufts and Gelato, remember, is about herself.

是关于林赛·克兰西的。

It's about Lindsay Clancy.

但在那些听到关于她孩子证词的时候，你知道，我回想起法庭上播放911电话的那一刻。

But those moments when we're hearing testimony about her children you know, I'm thinking back to the the moment in the courtroom where that 911 call was played.

那真是让人不寒而栗。

It was so chilling.

林赛哭得很厉害。

Lindsay was sobbing.

法庭里有些人明显情绪激动。

There were people in the courtroom who were visibly emotional.

然后上周那些尸检照片公布的时候，她又情绪失控了。

And then again, when those autopsy photos were released last week, she got emotional again.

上周，我们还通过她身边的人了解了林赛·克兰西在杀害孩子之前是个什么样的人。

Last week, we also got to look into who Lindsay Clancy was before she killed her children through the people who were close to her.

我们听了林赛的朋友、她的前公公，还有帕特里克·克兰西的一个朋友的讲述。

We heard from Lindsay's friends, her former father-in-law, and a friend of Patrick Clancy's.

让我觉得有意思的是，他们都形容她是一个充满爱心、关心孩子的妈妈。

And what was interesting to me, they all describe her as a loving, caring mom.

这让我想，我真的不太确定这对控方还是辩方有利。

It made me think I'm not really quite sure who whether this helps the state or the defense.

林赛的童年朋友在2023年1月24日事件发生前几天还和林赛发过短信，她在法庭上是这么说的。

Lindsay's childhood friend was actually texting Lindsay a few days before the events of 01/24/2023, and here's what she had to say on the stand.

她跟我说，她一直在吃一种药，那种药让她有一些阴暗的想法，但她打算或者已经在慢慢减药了，正在尝试新的药，希望能消除那些副作用，对她来说更有帮助、更有治疗效果。

She had shared that she was had been taking a medication that, caused her to have some dark thoughts, but that she was going to or had been weaning like tapering off that medication and was trialing new ones that would remove those side effects and be more helpful and therapeutic to what she needed.

那她有没有告诉你那些阴暗的想法是什么？

And did she tell you what those dark thoughts were?

没有。

No.

那你们聊天的语气是什么样的？

What was the tone of the conversation?

我觉得是充满希望的。

Hopeful, I would categorize it.

她有没有在任何时候表达过想伤害自己的念头？

Did she ever express at any point that she wanted to harm herself?

没有。

No.

她有没有表达过想伤害孩子的念头？

Did she ever express that she wanted to harm the children?

没有。

No.

她有没有告诉过你，她听到过什么声音？

Did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices?

没有。

No.

林赛的朋友描述的那次充满希望的谈话，就发生在2023年1月24日的几天前，这真的让人难以理解。

It's just so hard to make sense of the fact that this conversation that Lindsay's friend described as hopeful took place just days before 01/24/2023.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，艾琳，我觉得这确实和帕特里克在庭审开始时作证的内容相呼应。

And, Erin, I think it really mirrors Patrick's testimony at the start of this trial.

你还记得他说过，案发那天一开始是她状态最好的一天。

You remember what he said that the day of the killing started as one of her best days.

我是说，这真的凸显了心理健康问题可能每小时都在变化。

I mean, it really highlights that mental health challenges can change hour by hour.

而且我觉得，我采访过的医生们也都这么认为。

And I think that this is also something that doctors that I've been talking to have echoed as well.

你知道，有一位叫凯瑟琳·伯恩多夫的医生。

You know, there's a doctor named Katherine Berndorf.

她是纽约的一位精神科医生，专门治疗产后精神病患者。

She's a psychiatrist here in New York, and she treats women with PPP.

她跟我说，你前一分钟看起来还完全正常，然后那些幻觉、那些声音突然袭来，瞬间你就脱离了现实。

And she said to me, you know, you can present as normal one one minute, and then those hallucinations, those voices, they hit you, and then suddenly, you're not living in reality anymore.

我们真的学到了很多。

We are learning so much.

而且正是这种病情波动，似乎控辩双方都在利用这一点来支持自己的论点。

And it's this fluctuation that it seems both the prosecution and the defense, both of them, are using to bolster their arguments.

我们还从克兰西三个年幼孩子的老师那里听到了类似的故事。

We also heard similar stories from some of the teachers of Clancy's three young children.

这段证词特别让人难以接受，因为你能感觉到老师们都非常喜欢这些孩子。

This testimony was particularly difficult to listen to because you could tell the teachers were so fond of these kids.

这是科拉学前班一位老师的部分证词。

Here's part of the testimony from a teacher at Cora's pre k.

科拉作为学前班学生表现怎么样？

How was Cora as a as a preschool student?

非常棒。

Amazing.

她表现得非常好。

She was wonderful.

你觉得她准备好上幼儿园了吗？

Was she, in your opinion, ready for kindergarten?

是的。

Yes.

莎内尔，检察官请这些老师出庭，肯定有非常具体的原因。

Shanelle, there has to be a very specific reason that the prosecutors would ask these teachers to come to court.

对吧？

Isn't there?

我觉得检察官想向陪审团传达的重点是，要让大家明白那天失去了什么。

I mean, I think the the the point prosecutors are trying to drive home here to the jurors is to define what was lost that day.

这三个孩子那么漂亮、年轻、有前途，现在却都不在了。

I mean, these were three beautiful, young, promising children, and they're gone now.

所以这位老师走上证人席，情绪非常激动，讲述她照顾科拉的经历，科拉是最大的孩子，才五岁。

So you have this teacher taking to the stand, getting pretty emotional, talking about what it was like to care for Cora, who, of course, was the oldest child, just five years old.

莎内尔，你可能知道，《卫报》称这是美国最令人悲伤的谋杀案审判，我觉得确实如此。

Shanelle, as you may know, The Guardian calls this America's saddest murder trial, and I think it may be.

三个可爱的孩子就这样没了。

Three beautiful children are gone.

被告的家人同时也是受害者的家人。

The family of the defendant also is the family of the victims.

但不管陪审团最终怎么判，我觉得这个结果真的会很重要。

But whatever the jury ultimately decides in this case, I think it's really gonna matter.

这可能会对我们如何谈论和对待产妇精神疾病产生巨大影响。

It could have a huge impact on how we talk about and treat maternal mental illness.

我们现在了解到的是，林赛在产后心理健康问题中挣扎时曾试图寻求帮助，但可能没有足够清晰可辨的迹象来准确预测一个人何时会发展成精神病或伤害自己的孩子。

And what we're learning is that Lindsay tried to get help as she struggled with postpartum mental health issues, but that there may not be enough clear cut recognizable signs that can accurately predict when a person will develop psychosis or hurt their children.

艾琳，我觉得关于这个话题的讨论已经开始了。

I mean, Erin, I think conversations around this are already happening.

我不知道你怎么样，但我的社交媒体上全是这些内容。

I don't know about you, but my social media feed is full of it.

我的所有群聊都在讨论这件事。

All of my group chats are talking about it.

前几天我在餐厅，听到女人们在谈论塔夫茨医生。

I was at a restaurant the other day, and I heard women talking about doctor Tufts.

我真的想不起来有哪次审判能这样占据公众讨论的焦点。

Like, I can't remember a time when a trial really took over public discourse in this way.

这已经成了所有女性都在谈论的案件之一，因为我觉得它触及了你刚才提到的那个更大的问题——产后心理健康。

This has become one of those cases that women everywhere are talking about because I think it calls into question that larger issue that you just mentioned about maternal mental health.

我们平时真的很少聊这个。

I mean, we don't really talk about that much.

这周我采访了一位经历过产后精神病的女性。

And this week, I actually interviewed a woman who experienced postpartum psychosis.

你知道吗，她的经历跟林赛的案子有很多相似之处。

You know, her story had a ton of parallels to Lindsay's case.

但不同的是，幸运的是，她得到了诊断，并且因此及时得到了正确的药物治疗。

But what was different about her was, thankfully, she was able to get a diagnosis and then because of that, get the correct medications in time.

但我还采访了一位治疗产后精神病患者的医生，他说，艾琳，产后精神病其实并没有被列为全国心理健康专家使用的标准手册中的一个独立类别。

But a doctor that I also interviewed who treats people with PPP, or postpartum psychosis, said that PPP, Erin, is actually not named as its own distinct category in the standard handbook that's used by mental health experts across the country.

那本手册就像医学界的圣经一样。

That's sort of like the medical bible.

对吧？

Right?

所以这意味着很多医生可能不知道要留意什么。

And so what that means is a lot of doctors may not know what to look for.

如果你不知道要留意什么，你可能就不知道怎么诊断，也可能不知道怎么治疗。

And if you don't know what to look for, you probably don't know how to diagnose it, and you probably don't know how to treat it.

所以这位医生告诉我，她觉得这个案例是一个分水岭时刻，真正暴露了系统中的一个漏洞。

So this doctor told me she thinks this case is a watershed moment that's really exposing a gap in the system.

嗯，我希望这件事能带来一些好的结果。

Well, I hope that that's one good thing that comes out of this.

Shanelle，非常感谢你本周加入我们，我相信我们还会再和你聊的。

Shanelle, thank you so much for joining us this week, and I'm sure we'll be talking to you again.

谢谢，Erin。

Thanks, Erin.

现在我们要借此机会说，如果你或你认识的人可能正在经历心理健康危机，请联系988危机热线。

Now we wanna take this moment to say that if you or someone you know may be experiencing a mental health crisis, contact the 988 and crisis lifeline.

只需拨打或发短信到988。

Just call or you can text 988.

如果你怀孕了或刚生了宝宝，你可以拨打或发短信到全国孕产妇心理健康热线，号码是1833 MAMA，m a m a。

And if you're pregnant or have just had a baby, you can dial or text the National Maternal Mental Health hotline at 1833 MAMA, m a m a.

我们下期《个案分析》再见。

And we'll be back with another episode of case by case.

记得给我们评分和评论，告诉我们你在关注哪些案件，以及你希望我们跟进哪些案件。

Be sure to rate and review and let us know which cases you're following and which cases you'd like us to follow.

Paramount Plus 是你观看CBS NFL又一个精彩赛季的流媒体平台。

Paramount plus is your streaming home for another unbelievable season of the NFL on CBS.

他出发了。

And here he goes.

每个星期天。

Every Sunday.

触地得分。

Touchdown.

最受期待的比赛。

The most anticipated games.

奥马尔长传。

Omar going deep.

哇，好一个接球。

Oh, what a catch.

橄榄球界最耀眼的明星。

Football's biggest stars.

这就是经典的乔什·艾伦式橄榄球。

That's old fashioned Josh Allen football.

还有那些难忘的瞬间。

And all the unforgettable moments.

来了来了。

There it is.

这是历史性的一刻。

This is history.

今天就注册Paramount Plus，整个赛季都能在CBS上观看NFL直播。

Sign up for Paramount plus today and stream the NFL on CBS all season long.

周日见。

See you Sunday.