2025年5月11日：欺诈、重获行走能力、杰米·李·柯蒂斯

三位法官，一个席位，绝不容忍胡闹。我是丹·门瑟法官。与我一同审理的是雷切尔·华雷斯法官和约迪特·特韦尔德法官。在《热席法庭》节目中，我们不仅审理案件，还会进行辩论。

Three judges, one bench, zero room for nonsense. I'm judge Dan Menser. Joining me are judge Rachel Juarez and judge Yodit Tewelde. And on Hot Bench, we don't just hear cases, we debate.

她所要求的是

What she's asking for is for the

她为他车子支付的款项。

payments that she made on his car.

但仍有款项需要支付。没错。

But there's still payments to be made. Correct.

而我们伸张正义。

And we deliver justice.

此为法庭之判决。

That is the verdict of the court.

请关注并收听《热席法庭》播客，可在免费Audacy应用或您获取播客的任何平台收听。

Follow and listen to the Hot Bench podcast on the free Audacy app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是华盛顿最流行的F开头的词——欺诈。

It's the most popular f word in Washington, fraud.

欺诈行为已经达到了令人难以置信的程度。

The fraud has been incredible.

它每年给联邦政府造成数千亿美元的损失。关于谁在实施这些欺诈行为的真相可能会让你大吃一惊。

And it costs the federal government hundreds of billions of dollars a year. What we learned about who's committing it might surprise you.

我们真正谈论的是国家行为体。我们谈论的是有组织的犯罪团伙。他们利用大量被盗的美国身份信息，通过犯罪活动将其变现。

What we're really talking about is nation state actors. We're talking about organized crime rings. We're talking about using vast amounts of stolen Americans' identities to monetize them for, you know, criminal activity.

开始。今晚，我们前往瑞士洛桑，为您介绍一项前景广阔的新技术，它正帮助脊髓损伤的瘫痪患者仅通过思考就能站立行走。向左。那是什么感觉？

Go. Tonight, we travel to Lausanne, Switzerland to tell you about promising new technology that's helping paralyzed people with spinal cord injuries stand up and walk just by thinking about it. Left. What was that like?

就像获得了某种超能力，一种我以前没有的力量。现在有了这些植入物，你知道，我成了一个真正的钢铁女侠。

Gaining some superpower, a power that I did not have before. And now with these implants, you know, I'm a real iron woman.

在凭借恐怖电影《月光光心慌慌》奠定好莱坞地位四十年后，杰米·李·柯蒂斯正享受着新一轮获奖表演的喜悦，她饰演了一系列原始、情绪不稳定的角色，这些角色总能瞬间吸引全场注意。唐娜，

Four decades after she cemented her place in Hollywood with the horror movie Halloween, Jamie Lee Curtis is savoring a new wave of award winning performances, playing a string of raw, volatile characters that suck the oxygen out of the room. Donna,

我脑海中浮现出她用指甲涂黄油在面包上、脸颊上还粘着一根睫毛的画面。

the images in my mind of her buttering the bread with the nails and the eyelash on the cheek.

那根睫毛。就那一根睫毛，我想，为我赢得了一座艾美奖。我向天发誓。去吧。去坐下。

The eyelash. That single eyelash, I think, won me an Emmy. I swear to God. Go. Go sit.

我是莱斯利·斯塔尔。我是比尔·惠特克

I'm Leslie Stahl. I'm Bill Whittaker

在《60分钟》节目里。

in sixty minutes.

三位法官，一个席位，绝无胡闹的余地。我是丹·门瑟法官。与我同席的是雷切尔·华雷斯法官和约迪特·特韦尔德法官。在《热席法庭》，我们不仅审理案件，还要进行辩论。

Three judges, one bench, zero room for nonsense. I'm judge Dan Menser. Joining me are judge Rachel Juarez and judge Yodit Tewelde. And on Hot Bench, we don't just hear cases, we debate.

她所要求的是

What she's asking for is for

她为他支付的车贷款项。

the payments that she made on his car.

但仍有款项需要支付。没错。

But there's still payments to be made. Correct.

而我们伸张正义。

And we deliver justice.

这是法庭的判决。

That is the verdict of the court.

请在免费Audacy应用或您获取播客的任何平台关注并收听《热席审判》播客。

Follow and listen to the Hot Bench podcast on the free Audacy app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是华盛顿最流行的F开头的词：欺诈。而特朗普政府的政府效率部（Doge）一直在彻查联邦机构以追查欺诈行为。但Doge找对地方了吗？今晚我们要讲述的欺诈行为复杂、普遍，由跨国犯罪组织实施，他们经常使用盗取的身份信息针对美国

It's the most popular F word in Washington: fraud. And Doge, the Trump administration's Department of Government Efficiency, has been tearing through federal agencies on the hunt for it. But is Doge looking in the right places? The fraud we'll tell you about tonight is complex, pervasive, and being carried out by transnational criminal organizations, often using stolen identities to target U. S.

纳税人，导致政府每年损失数千亿美元。

Taxpayers, costing the government hundreds of billions of dollars a year.

说实话，埃隆·马斯克公开表示存在大量欺诈行为，我完全欢迎这一信息，因为终于有人真正说出了这一点。

To be honest, Elon Musk coming out and saying, there is a huge amount of fraud, I welcome that message completely because finally someone is actually saying this.

没有人比琳达·米勒更了解政府欺诈的内幕。她在政府问责办公室工作了十年，追踪纳税人资金的使用和滥用情况，甚至撰写了防止联邦项目欺诈的规则手册。

No one knows the ins and outs of government fraud better than Linda Miller. She spent a decade at the Government Accountability Office tracking how taxpayer money is spent and misspent and even wrote the rulebook on preventing fraud in federal programs.

欺诈是故意的欺骗行为。它涉及故意的欺骗，并且必须在法庭上得到证明。

Fraud is willful deception. It involves willful deception, and and it has to be proven in a court of law.

Doge是否将欺诈与浪费性支出混为一谈了？

Is Doge conflating fraud with wasteful

是的，经常如此。你可能不同意美国国际开发署的做法。你可能不想将美元投资于，比如说，外国化肥。你可能认为那是错误的开支方向，但那不是欺诈。

spending? Yes, often. You may not agree with what USAID does. You may not want to be investing American dollars in, you know, foreign fertilizer, for example. You may think that's the wrong thing to be spending money on, but that's not fraud.

去年，政府问责办公室发布了一份报告，估计联邦政府每年因欺诈损失高达5210亿美元。但米勒和其他欺诈专家认为实际数字更高。

Last year, the Government Accountability Office released a report estimating the federal government loses as much as $521,000,000,000 a year to fraud. But Miller and other fraud experts believe the number is higher.

我相信政府每年损失在5500亿到约7500亿美元之间。我们正接近每年因欺诈损失1万亿美元的规模。

I believe the government is losing between $550,000,000,000 and about $750,000,000,000 a year. We're coming up close to the $1,000,000,000,000 amount, is lost every year to fraud.

当大多数人想到政府欺诈时，我想他们可能认为有人在不符合条件的情况下申领残疾福利，或者不符合条件的人领取食品券。这些是最大的违规行为吗？

When most people think of government fraud, I imagine they're thinking somebody is claiming disability benefits when they're not actually eligible, somebody collecting food stamps when they're not actually eligible. Are those the biggest offenders?

完全不是。差得远呢。我们真正谈论的是国家行为体。我们谈论的是有组织的犯罪团伙。我们谈论的是利用大量窃取的美国人身份信息，将其货币化用于犯罪活动。

Not at all. Not by a long shot. What we're really talking about is nation state actors. We're talking about organized crime rings. We're talking about using vast amounts of stolen Americans' identities to monetize them for, you know, criminal activity.

这个问题在疫情期间爆发，当时政府匆忙向经济注入数万亿美元以帮助陷入困境的美国人。救济项目的申请转移到线上，让人们更容易获得援助。但由于缺乏保障措施，诈骗者、黑客和有组织的犯罪团伙也从中获利。

The problem exploded during the pandemic when the government rushed trillions of dollars into the economy to help struggling Americans. Applications for relief programs moved online, making it easier for people to access aid. But with few safeguards, scammers, hackers, and organized crime rings also cashed in.

欺诈预防根本不是联邦和州级机构的优先事项。

Fraud prevention is simply not a priority for federal and state agencies.

2020年，米勒被任命为一个独立监督委员会的成员，该委员会负责追踪COVID救济资金的使用情况。

In 2020, Miller was appointed to an independent watchdog committee that tracked how COVID relief money was spent.

所以我们立刻就能看出来。就像，哦，好吧，那些钱都会被偷走。你预见到了。哦，是的。我的意思是，这就像他们把钱扔到空中，然后让人们跑来跑去抢。

So we could tell right away. It's like, oh, well, that's all gonna get stolen. You saw it coming. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like they threw money in the air and just let people run around and grab it.

最恶劣的部分是，很多偷走这些钱的人是外国的敌对民族国家。

The most egregious part is that a lot of the people who stole that money were foreign adversarial nation states.

那么他们是谁？你指的是谁？

So who are they? Who are you talking about?

他们当时在谈论中国。

They were talking about China.

我们在讨论俄罗斯。冒充美国人的权利。很多

We're talking about Russia. Impersonating Americans in a Right. Lot of

这些可以说是21世纪的数字帮派，它们建立在拥有避风港地位的基础上，这意味着即使他们的活动是非法的，政府也不会干预。

These are arguably digital gangs in the twenty first century that are built off of having safe haven status, meaning their governments are not gonna interrupt their activity even if it's illegal.

布莱恩·沃德伦是FBI网络部门的负责人。他表示这些数字帮派配备了一个非常重要的武器。是否真的几乎所有美国人的社会安全号码都可以在暗网上出售？

Brian Vordren is head of the FBI's cyber division. He says these digital gangs are armed with a very important weapon. Is it true that the social security number of just about every single American is available for sale on the dark web?

这个说法是正确的。我们所有的个人身份信息，包括姓名、出生日期、地址表格、社会安全号码，都可以在暗网上找到，并且很可能被购买。

That is a true statement. All of our personally identifiable information, name, date of birth, form or address, social security number is available on the dark net and can likely be purchased.

这真令人不寒而栗。

That's chilling.

是的。不过，这现在确实是我们生活的一部分。

Yeah. It's very much a way of our lives, though, right now.

而且我听说，每张仅以2美元的低价购入。

And purchased, I hear, for as little as $2 apiece.

没错。非常实惠。

Yep. Very affordable.

去年，FBI破获了美国历史上最大的数字诈骗案之一，全球各地的网络犯罪分子使用盗取的身份信息，从疫情失业救济金中窃取了60亿美元。

Last year, the FBI unraveled one of the largest digital fraud cases in US history in which cybercriminals from around the world used stolen identities to pocket $6,000,000,000 in pandemic unemployment funds.

60亿美元是一笔极其、极其巨大的金额。

$6,000,000,000 is an enormous, enormous amount of money.

为什么政府会成为这类诈骗的目标？

Why is the government a target for this type of fraud?

因为联邦政府和州政府拥有巨额资金。

Because of the massive amount of money that exists in the federal government and in the state government.

目前没有官方统计显示有多少COVID救济金因诈骗而损失，但米勒估计超过一万亿美元。相当于每5美元中就有1美元被骗，使其成为美国历史上最大的诈骗损失。

There's no official tally of how much COVID relief money was lost to fraud, but Miller estimates it's more than a trillion dollars. That's one in $5, making it the largest fraud loss in US history.

我深感沮丧的一件事是，自那以后，我曾和一些认为'那只是疫情期间的特殊情况，现在不用再担心了'的人交谈过。真是这样吗？不。我的意思是，这就像打地鼠游戏，而这些诈骗分子一直在密切关注着。

One of the things I've found really disheartening is since then, I've I've talked to some folks who said, well, that was just the pandemic. We don't have to worry about it anymore. Was it? No. I mean, it's whack a mole, and they these guys are are paying close attention.

他们观察着哪些地方正在实施更严格的控制措施，然后

They're seeing where better controls are being put in place, and

他们就会转向那些

then they're going to where

控制措施尚未完善的地方。当前诈骗的热点领域是什么？灾害资金援助是一个重大问题。当国内发生灾害时，诈骗分子会追踪资金流向。他们查看邮政编码，开始购买被盗身份信息，以便能够以这些被盗身份申请灾害贷款和灾害补助金。

the controls still haven't been improved. What are the hot spots for fraud right now? Disaster funding is a really big issue. When a disaster happens in the country, the fraud actors see where it's coming. They look at the ZIP codes, and they begin buying stolen identities so that they can begin applying for disaster loans, disaster grants on behalf of stolen identities.

那是我们联邦应急管理局（FEMA）负责的事务。

That's our FEMA stuff.

这些身份背后的真实美国人，比如在1月份洛杉矶野火中幸存下来的里奇和迪安·威尔金夫妇，那场大火席卷了他们的帕利塞德斯社区。

The real Americans behind those identities, people like Rich and Deanne Wilkin, who survived the Los Angeles wildfires that tore through their Palisades neighborhood in January.

这边的一切都烧毁了，另一边的学校也烧毁了。

Everything on this side burned, and the school on the other side also burned.

他们记录了这场灾难，展示出他们居住了近五十年的家已不复存在。如今只剩下几车随身带走的物品。威尔金斯夫妇向联邦应急管理局（FEMA）申请了灾难援助，并仔细保存了包含整个流程所需重要信息的文件和笔记本。据你所知，你已经完成了所有必要步骤。援助即将到来。

They documented the devastation, showing the home they lived in for nearly fifty years gone. All they have left are the few carloads of belongings they managed to take with them. The Wilkins applied for disaster assistance from FEMA, carefully keeping a file and notebook with important information they'd need throughout the process. So as far as you know, you've done everything you need to do. Help is on the way.

援助即将到来。

Help is on the way.

但援助始终未至。于是威尔金斯夫妇前往灾后中心向FEMA代表跟进情况，却得知他们用于创建FEMA账户的个人信息已被更改。

But help never came. So the Wilkins followed up with a FEMA representative at a disaster center and learned the personal information they'd used to set up their FEMA account had been changed.

她问道：您的社保号码是多少？好的。出生日期呢？好的。您的地址是某某某？

She says, What's your Social Security number? Okay. What's your date of birth? Okay. And your address is such and such.

我回答：不对。您的电话号码是以某某区号开头的吗？我又说：不对。

And I said, No. Your phone number start with area code such and such? And I said, No.

你当时心里在想什么？

What's going through your mind?

天啊，真是见鬼了。

Yikes. Yeah, WTF.

哦，到那个时候，我们也已经听说了其他一些朋友的情况，他们的账户也是同样的问题，我们当时就想，哦，不会是我们俩吧。

Oh, by that time too, we had already heard some of our other friends whose accounts were the same way, and we just go, oh, not us two.

威尔金斯一家被告知他们的账户因涉嫌身份欺诈而被锁定。他们已经花了几个月时间等待FEMA解决他们的问题，目前尚不清楚他们是否还能拿到任何钱。六个月后你会在哪里？就在这里。你面前还会放着这个文件夹吗？

The Wilkins were told their account was locked due to suspected identity fraud. They've spent months waiting for FEMA to resolve their case, and it's unclear whether they will ever get any money. Where will you be in six months? Here. Will you still have this folder in front of you?

希望它已经被塞到文件柜的最里面去了。

Hopefully, it's been put way in the back of the filing cabinet.

这不仅仅是一个项目的问题。哪里有金钱，哪里就有欺诈。在失业救济、食品券、残疾补助、退税等领域都存在这种情况，让美国人难以获得他们应得的权益。与此同时，犯罪分子总是领先一步，使用深度伪造等AI工具（通常利用无辜者的信息）来掩盖他们的行踪。

It's not just one program. Where there's money, there's fraud. In unemployment, food stamps, disability, tax refunds, leaving Americans struggling to access what they're owed. All the while, criminals are one step ahead using AI tools like deepfakes, often of innocent people, to cover their tracks.

你好。能确认一下你的姓名吗？

Hi. Can you confirm your name?

你在这里看到的这名男子正试图通过id.me公司进行身份验证，以从国税局获得退税，至少表面上是这样。仔细观察他举起驾照时的画面：出现了一个故障，你看到了另一名男子脸部的一小部分。

The man you see here is attempting to pass an identity check through the company id.me to obtain a tax refund from the IRS, or so it appears. Watch closely as he holds up a driver's license. There's a glitch, and you see a sliver of a different man's face.

很抱歉，我无法完成您的验证。

Unfortunately, I won't be able to complete your verification.

你可以听到背景中有人讲普通话。在某些情况下，疑似犯罪分子受雇于外国政府，比如中国就雇佣了一个被FBI称为APT41的组织，APT代表高级持续性威胁。2021年，APT41对至少六个州政府实施了高度复杂且不寻常的黑客攻击。他们入侵州政府项目想要得到什么？

You can hear someone speaking Mandarin in the background. In some cases, suspected criminals are on the payroll of foreign governments, like China, which employs a group the FBI calls APT forty one, APT for advanced persistent threat. In 2021, APT forty one carried out a highly sophisticated and unusual hack of at least six state governments. What would they want hacking into state government programs?

他们只是想为自己赚钱。

They just want to make money for themselves.

通过美国政府？

Through the US government?

没错。

Correct.

通过美国纳税人的钱？

Via American taxpayer dollars?

正确。他们利用窃取的个人身份信息，实质上制造了欺诈性失业救济申请。然后这些收益通过空壳公司洗钱，最终资金被汇回中国的这些个人手中。

Correct. They used stolen personally identifiable information and essentially created fraudulent unemployment claims. Then those proceeds were laundered through shell companies, that money was sent back to these individuals in China.

他们搞到了多少钱？

How much did they get?

我们最好的估计是6000万美元

Our best estimate is $60,000,000

6000万美元？持续多长时间？

$60,000,000 Over the course of how long?

大约持续两年时间。

Over the course of about two years.

哇。嗯。已经追回了多少？

Wow. Mhmm. How much of that has been recovered?

非常少。非常少。

Very little. Very little.

而且我猜永远也追不回来了。

And I assume never will be.

这...这很可能就是最终结果。

That's that's a likely outcome.

需要明确的是，这笔钱本该用于帮助有需要的美国人。嗯。这是一项与中国政府有关的犯罪行为。

And to be clear, this was money that was supposed to go to Americans in need Mhmm. In a crime being carried out that has been linked to the Chinese government.

没错。

Correct.

多位执法和国家安全官员告诉我们，中国是纳税人资金被盗的主要目的地。但这些骗局极其复杂且难以调查，实际损失无法估量。我们听说此类攻击至今仍在持续，而且不仅仅是APT41组织。有数百人参与其中。你认为这是真的吗？

Multiple law enforcement and national security officials told us China is a top destination for stolen taxpayer dollars. But the schemes are so complex and difficult to investigate, the true losses are unknown. We've heard that attacks like this are continuing to this day, and it's not just APT forty one. There are hundreds of people involved. Do you believe that to be true?

我相信全球范围内存在持续性的、资源充足的行动，其目标是对美国造成损害。

I believe that there are sustained campaigns across this globe that are very well resourced with a goal of causing damage to The United States.

你真的能抓获在中国、俄罗斯、朝鲜、东欧等地运作的这类罪犯吗？

Can you really catch a criminal in this arena that is operating in a place like China, Russia, North Korea, Eastern Europe?

我们有很多成功案例，曾抓获过来自你提到的某些国家的人员。

We have plenty of examples, where we have caught people from some of the countries that you mentioned.

我确实认为存在一种看法，觉得这些罪犯中的某些人是碰不得的。根本不可能抓到他们。

I do think there's a perception, that some of these criminals are untouchable. They're impossible to get to.

当然。我同意这个说法。

Sure. I would agree with that.

恕我直言，听起来您似乎处于少数派。

It also respectfully sounds like you're outnumbered.

在美国政府里，我们永远都是少数派。

In the US government, we're all outnumbered.

您是否曾感觉自己在这些问题上声嘶力竭地呐喊，却无人倾听？是的。

Do you ever feel like you're sort of screaming until you're blue in the face on this and no one is listening to you? Yes.

是的。我曾与某些机构合作，当我坐下来与他们交谈时，他们说：我要打断您一下，因为您一直在说'欺诈'。这个词听起来太险恶了。我们能用别的词吗？有吗？

Yes. I have worked with agencies where when I sit down and talk to them, they say, I'm gonna stop you right there because you keep saying fraud. And that's that sounds so insidious. Is there another word we could use? Is there?

我说：那么您倾向于用什么词？他们说：也许是'挪用'。这样听起来好点吗？是的，听起来好多了。

Well, I say, well, what's the word you'd prefer? And they say, maybe misappropriation. Does that make it better? Yeah. It sounds better.

而且，您知道吗，我通常会说：这确实就是险恶的。

And, you know, and what I usually say is it is insidious.

事情已经曝光了。欺诈行为，不仅仅是浪费和滥用，其欺诈程度令人难以置信。

It's been brought to light. The the fraud, not just waste and abuse, the fraud has been incredible.

Doge声称迄今已为纳税人节省了超过160亿美元，有时引用的成本削减案例并不准确且后来被撤回。一位白宫发言人告诉我们，Doge一直在努力改善机构间的数据共享，各部门正在合作识别欺诈行为并防止犯罪分子剥削纳税人，并表示'欺诈者将被追究责任'。观察Doge的表现，你是否乐观地认为真正的欺诈改革会实现？当我今天看Doge时，我

Doge claims it has saved taxpayers more than $160,000,000,000 so far, sometimes citing examples of cost cuts that are inaccurate and later walked back. A White House spokesman told us, Doge has been working on improving data sharing between agencies and that departments are collaborating to identify fraud and prevent criminals from exploiting taxpayers, saying, quote, fraudsters will be held accountable. Watching Doge, are you optimistic that real fraud reform will actually come? I, when I watch Doge today, I

确实看到一些迹象表明他们正在处理正确的问题。但目前我认为，我们是否能取得那种进展还有待观察。

do see some hints that they are addressing the right issues. But right now I think the jury is still out on whether or not we're gonna get that kind of progress.

你在谈论Doge和埃隆·马斯克时，是否觉得需要措辞谨慎？

Do you feel like you have to choose your words carefully when you're talking about Doge and Elon Musk?

是的。为什么这么问？

Yeah. Why?

因为我真的认为欺诈不是一个政治问题。这是关乎民生的大事。我们都同意不良行为者不应该窃取美国纳税人的钱。但现在这已经变得政治化了。像我这样的人和执法界人士，我们看到对手不是共和党人或民主党人，而是外国敌对国家和有组织犯罪集团。

Because I really think fraud is not a political issue. This is mom and apple pie stuff. We all agree that bad actors should not be stealing American taxpayer dollars. But now it's become political. People like me and people in the law enforcement community, we see the adversary not as Republicans or Democrats, but as foreign adversarial nation states and organized crime rings.

而且我相信，如果Doge专注于正确的事情，专注于真正的欺诈行为，他们有机会节省大量重要资金。

And I believe that there's opportunities for Doge to save a lot of significant money if they focus on the right things, if they focus on real fraud.

犯罪活动不会停歇，我们也不会。我是凯蒂·林，《犯罪屋日报》播客的主持人。每个工作日两次，我们为您带来正在发生的重大犯罪故事。早晨获取最新动态，夜晚深入关键时刻。

Crime doesn't take a day off and neither do we. I'm Katie Ring, host of the Crimehouse Daily podcast. Twice every weekday, we bring you the biggest crime stories as they unfold. In the morning, get the latest updates. At night, dive into the moments that matter.

对正义的追求永不停歇。有了《犯罪屋日报》，您也无需错过任何信息。立即收听并关注《犯罪屋日报》，在您获取播客的任何平台均可收听。

The pursuit of justice never stops. And with Crimehouse Daily, you won't have to either. Listen to and follow Crimehouse Daily, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

对于那些遭受创伤性脊髓损伤并瘫痪的人来说，很少有好消息，这就是为什么在瑞士洛桑一个研究实验室进行的早期临床试验如此引人注目。法国著名神经科学家格雷瓜尔·科尔蒂内和瑞士神经外科医生乔斯林·布洛赫博士，在瘫痪患者的脊柱上植入了一个小型刺激装置，帮助他们重新站立和行走。更令人惊讶的是他们的最新创新——通过在颅骨内植入装置，使患者仅通过思考就能移动瘫痪的腿或手臂。今年三月我们访问他们的实验室NeuroRestore时，他们正与一位39岁的女性合作，她的脊髓在六年半前被切断。

For those who've suffered a traumatic spinal cord injury and are paralyzed, there's rarely encouraging news, which is why what's happening in early clinical trials in a research lab in Lausanne, Switzerland is so remarkable. A renowned French neuroscientist, Gregoire Cortine, and Swiss neurosurgeon, Doctor. Jocelyn Bloch, have implanted a small stimulation device on the spine of paralyzed patients, helping them once again stand up and walk. What's even more surprising is their newest innovation, which uses an implant in the skull that enables patients to move their paralyzed legs or arms just by thinking about it. When we visited their lab, NeuroRestore, in March, they were working with a 39 year old woman whose spinal cord was severed six and a half years ago.

她曾被告知永远无法再行走。可以侧身滚动。好的。莫尔塔·卡斯蒂亚诺·丹比是参与NeuroRestore这项临床试验以恢复腿部活动能力的最严重瘫痪患者。她腰部以下没有感觉，并且无法保持平衡。

She'd been told she'd never walk again. Can roll to my side. Okay. Morta Castiano Dambi is the most severely paralyzed patient who's enrolled in this clinical trial at NeuroRestore to regain mobility in her legs. She has no feeling below her waist and is unable to keep her balance.

仅仅是自己坐起来对她来说都是一项挑战。

Just sitting up on her own is a challenge.

你接住我了，当然。很好。

You catch me, Sure. Good.

2018年，玛尔塔是一位新妈妈，在一家德国科技公司工作，当时她开始和丈夫一起为铁人三项比赛进行训练。她当时处于一生中最好的身体状态，但在比赛的自行车环节，她遭遇了一场毁灭性的事故。你被发现时

In 2018, Marta was a new mom, working at a German tech company when she began training with her husband for an Ironman competition. She was in the best shape of her life, but during the bike portion of the race, she suffered a devastating accident. You were found

在一棵树附近。

Near a tree.

在一棵树附近。

Near a tree.

是的。所以

Yes. So

然后你的背撞到了树上。

And your back hit the tree.

我们是在假设发生了什么，对吧？因为没人看到我。所以我当时肯定撞得很厉害，因为我的脊柱基本上像是断成了两截。

We're hypothesizing what happened, right? Because nobody saw me. So I must have had a pretty tough collision because my spine basically broke like two dimensions.

她的脊髓损伤非常严重，医生说她的下半身已经没有任何神经连接的迹象。她还断了八根肋骨，肺部被刺穿，并且内出血。她需要紧急手术，医生告诉她的家人她可能活不下来。当你从手术中醒来时，我知道你给你妈妈写了一条信息。

Her spinal cord injury was so severe, doctors said there was no sign of nerve connections left to her lower body. She'd also broken eight ribs, punctured her lungs, and was bleeding internally. She needed emergency surgery, and doctors told her family she might not survive. When you came out of the surgery, I understand you wrote a message to your mom.

手术大约进行了七到八个小时。我当时插着管，不能说话。你可以想象，我妈妈泪流满面。我只是写给她：我很坚强。

So the surgery took about seven to eight hours. And I was intubated, I could not talk. And my mom, you can imagine, was in tears. And I just wrote to her, I'm strong.

那份力量受到了考验。玛尔塔在重症监护室度过了十天，又在康复医院待了四个半月，学习适应轮椅上的新生活。传统上，如果有人脊髓受损，他们有哪些治疗选择？

That strength has been tested. Marta spent ten days in intensive care and four and a half months in a rehab hospital, learning to adapt to her new life in a wheelchair. Traditionally, if someone gets a spinal cord injury, what are the treatment options for them?

你需要做一些物理治疗，坐上轮椅，然后回家，就这样了。

You have to do a little bit of physiotherapy, get into a wheelchair, and then you go back home, and that's all.

就这样？

That's it?

就这样。而且多年来，这是唯一的选择。

That's it. And that was, for many years, the only option.

自2012年以来，乔斯林·布洛赫医生和格雷瓜尔·科尔蒂内一直处于试图扩展这些选择的研究前沿。他们在日内瓦湖附近的实验室是瑞士联邦理工学院（瑞士的MIT）与洛桑大学医院合作的成果。

Doctors Jocelyn Bloch and Gregoire Cortine have been at the forefront of researchers trying to expand those options since 2012. Their lab near Lake Geneva is a collaboration between the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Switzerland's M. I. T. And the Lausanne University Hospital.

在那里，他们为八名瘫痪患者植入了一种设备，使他们能够刺激脊髓，从而站立、借助助行器行走以及举重。有些人甚至能爬楼梯。他们通过按钮来激活刺激。

That's where they've implanted eight paralyzed patients with a device that allows them to stimulate their spinal cords, enabling them to stand, take steps with a walker, and lift weights. Some can even climb stairs. They use a button to activate the stimulation.

而且

And

现在，得益于Cortine和Bloch的最新技术，另外五名患者能够通过自己的意念来移动瘫痪的肢体。这被称为数字桥梁，它无线连接患者的大脑与脊髓刺激器。

now, thanks to Cortine and Bloch's latest technology, five other patients can move their paralyzed limbs using their own thoughts. It's called a digital bridge, and it wirelessly connects a patient's brain to their spinal cord stimulator.

正常情况下，大脑和脊髓之间存在直接的通信。

Normally, there is a direct communication between the brain and the spinal cord.

对我来说，要走路，我的大脑会自动告诉我的腿去行走。

For me scaler to walk, my brain just automatically tells my legs to walk.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但由于脊髓损伤，信号被中断了。因此，我们的目标是通过在大脑和控制腿部运动的脊髓区域之间建立直接的数字连接，来绕过损伤部位搭建桥梁。

But because of the spinal cord injury, the signal is interrupted. So we are aiming to bridge bypass the injury by having a direct digital connection between the brain and the region of the spinal cord that control leg movement.

为了实现这一点，Bloch医生在患者的头骨上植入了一个小型钛制装置，该装置最初由一家法国研究机构开发，直接放置于负责控制运动的大脑区域——运动皮层之上。

To do that, Doctor. Bloch implants a small titanium device, originally developed by a French research institute, in the patient's skull, directly over their motor cortex, the area of the brain responsible for controlling movement.

你看，这里有64个电极。

You see, you have the 64 electrodes.

那么这些分别是什么呢？

And so each of these is what?

这些是记录下方神经元群体活动的电极，你可以立即看出哪些与特定运动最相关。

It's electrodes that are recording populations of neurons underneath, and you can immediately see which one are the best correlated to certain movements.

比如髋部在这里，膝盖在这里，脚踝在这里，等等。

Like the hip is here, and then the knee is here, and then the ankle is here, etc.

当患者思考移动肢体时，这些电极记录大脑活动。然后计算机利用人工智能将记录转化为对植入脊髓的刺激装置的指令。该装置发送电脉冲激活腿部或手臂的肌肉。整个过程大约在半秒内完成。格特扬·奥斯卡姆是四年前自行车事故瘫痪后首位接受数字桥接技术的人。

A patient thinks about moving a limb, those electrodes record the brain's activity. Then a computer uses artificial intelligence to translate the recordings into instructions for the stimulation device implanted on the spinal cord. That device sends electrical pulses activating muscles in the legs or arms. All of it happens in about half a second. Gertjan Oskum was the first person to get the digital Bridge four years ago after he was paralyzed in a bike accident.

我们在日内瓦湖边与他散步时相遇。那么现在刺激开启了吗？

We met him for a walk by Lake Geneva. So now the stimulation is on?

现在开启了，是的。

Now it's on, yes.

你身体有任何感觉吗？

Do you feel it at all in your body?

我确实感觉到大脑受到刺激后有一点刺痛感。

I do feel a little tingling sensation from the stimulation with my brain.

他的头戴设备为他颅内的植入体供电，而行走架上的则是计算机。这套设备在身体和精神上都很笨重且令人疲惫，但他能行走长达450英尺。不过让我觉得不可思议的是，即使这台机器正在读取你大脑的信号，你还能继续和我交谈。

His headpiece powers the implant in his skull, and on his walker is the computer. It's cumbersome and tiring, physically and mentally, but he can walk up to four fifty feet. It's incredible to me though that you can continue talking with me even though this machine is reading the signals from your brain.

它能同时区分行走和说话。这太不可思议了。

It's able to discriminate walking and talking at the same time. That's incredible.

对于一个曾经无法控制自己动作的人来说，突然之间能够控制自己的行动，这真是

For somebody who has not been able to control their movements, to suddenly be able to control their movement, that's

是的，当他们意识到自己发出指令并且指令正在被执行时，会有一个最初的惊讶阶段。

Yes, there is this initial phase of surprise when they realize that they are giving the order and it's happening.

太棒了。哇。

Nice. Wow.

那是我做的？

That was me?

那是你。那是你。

That's you. That's you.

他们会说，是我做的吗？是我还是你实际在刺激？他们说，不，是你做的。

They're like, Did I do that? Is it me or you actually stimulated? They say, No, you did it.

他们以为你在某个地方按按钮

They think you're pressing a button somewhere

他们不理解，因为他们已经瘫痪了这么多年。

They and doing don't understand because they've been paralyzed for so many years.

准备好了吗？开始吧。增加我们的赞赏度。

Ready? Start it. Increasing our appreciation.

莫尔塔在九月份植入了数字桥。她与工程师团队和物理治疗师合作，研究需要多少电刺激才能移动她的腿。很好。然后跳一下。所以那就是电刺激。

Morta got the digital bridge implanted in September. She's worked with a team of engineers and physical therapists to figure out how much electrical stimulation is needed to move her legs. Nice. And hop. So that's the stimulation.

电刺激正在让腿移动。

The electrical stimulation is making the leg move.

是的。玛尔塔已经完全瘫痪了。

Yeah. Marta is completely paralyzed.

这就是那个神奇的帽子吗？

This is the magic cappy?

嗯。但玛尔塔还必须学会每次都以完全相同的方式思考移动。

Mhmm. But Marta has also had to teach herself to think about moving the exact same way every time.

对吧？

Right?

这样人工智能才能识别她的想法。她最初是用这个虚拟形象练习的。停下。你必须重新学习或重新思考如何行走。

So the AI can recognize her thoughts. She practiced at first with this avatar. Stop. You have to relearn or rethink how to walk.

没错。所以我们当时做了一些实验。我该想什么呢？是想着臀部收缩？还是想着膝盖抬起？

Exactly. So we were experimenting a little bit. Do I think about? Is it I think about the hip being contracted? Do I think about the knee lifting up?

还是想着脚踝？

Do I think about the ankle?

为了向我们展示她如何做到这一点，他们将她颅内的植入体与脊髓刺激器断开，并连接到了这个外骨骼上。你现在能用意念控制它吗？

To show us how she does that, they disconnected her skull implant from her spinal cord stimulator and connected it to this exoskeleton. You can control this with your thoughts right now?

是的，如果我想做一个右侧动作，比如右髋屈曲，它就会执行右髋屈曲。

Yeah, if I want to do a right movement, right hip flexion, it does a right hip flexion.

你没有按任何按钮或其他东西，你只是在思考

You're not pressing any buttons or anything, you're just thinking

当然。

Sure.

你能不看着它，只是看着我然后

Can you look at me without looking at it and just

做一个右侧的，是的。我觉得它起作用了。

Do a right one, yes. I think it works.

确实起作用了。

Does work.

经过仅两天的数字桥梁训练后，Jocelyn Bloch医生和Gregoire Cortine（Marta称他为G）就对她进行了测试，急切地想看看她是否能迈出几步。

After training with the digital bridge for just two days, Doctor. Jocelyn Bloch and Gregoire Cortine, or G as Marta calls him, put her to the test, eager to see if she could take some steps.

Joslyn和G走进来，然后说，好吧，展示一下。所以你能做什么？

Joslyn and G come in and was like, okay, show off. So what can you do?

他们说展示一下？

They said show off?

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

你准备好展示了吗？

Were you ready to show off?

我不知道我是否能展示。这是

I did not know if I'm able to show off. This was the

关键，一个支撑她大约一半体重的安全带和物理治疗师帮助她的脚着地，Marta迈出了她的第一步。尽管腰部以下没有感觉，她能够通过思想移动她瘫痪的双腿。你想回去试试吗？那是什么感觉？

thing, a harness to support about half her body weight and physical therapist to help place her feet on the ground, Marta took her first steps. Despite having no sensation below her waist, she was able to move her paralyzed legs with her thoughts. You want to go back for it? What was that like?

获得某种超能力，一种我以前没有的力量。现在有了这些植入物，你知道，我成了真正的铁娘子。真不错。

Gaining some superpower, a power that I did not have before. And now with these implants, you know, I'm a real iron woman. Nice.

三月份我们在那里时，玛尔塔还不能独立行走，但她说她已经重新获得了失去的东西。

When we were there in March, Marta wasn't able to walk on her own yet, but she said she'd already regained something she'd lost.

它让我重获视角，重新站立起来，与人平视交流。这很不一样。

It's giving me my perspective back, standing up again and looking people in the eye. That's different.

是你自我认知的差异，还是他人看法的改变，或是你与世界互动方式的不同？

A difference in how you think about yourself, or in how others see you, or how you interact in the world?

一切。

Everything.

你坐着轮椅离开医院时，会注意到那些异样的目光。

You leave the hospital on your wheelchair, and you notice the different looks.

立刻就能注意到。

Right away, you notice.

是的，惊恐的表情。还有，很多笑容持续得有点太长了。

Yeah, scared looks. Also, a lot of smiles that are a little bit too long.

那些善意的笑容让四肢瘫痪的阿诺·罗伯特想起自己的生活发生了多大的变化。作为一名瑞士记者，他曾用几十年时间周游世界。但三年前，他在一块冰上滑倒，瞬间从颈部以下瘫痪。通过物理治疗，他恢复了右臂的部分功能，但想看看数字桥梁是否能帮助他的左臂。张开和握紧一只手远比行走复杂得多。

Those well meaning smiles reminded Arnaud Robert, who's quadriplegic, how much his life had changed. A Swiss journalist, he'd spent decades traveling the world. But three years ago, he slipped on a patch of ice and was instantly paralyzed from the neck down. He regained some function in his right arm with physical therapy, but wanted to see if the digital bridge could help him with his left. Opening and closing a hand is far more complex than walking.

这是因为能够单独控制不同的肌肉。

It is because of the possibility to access a different muscle individually.

手部很复杂，有这么多不同的小肌肉，而且非常精细。

The hand is tricky, with all these different little muscles, and it's very subtle.

但在接受手术并在科蒂娜·布莱克实验室训练八个月后，他能够用左手帮忙拿杯子和打字了。

But after surgery and training at Cortina Blach's lab for eight months, he was able to use his left hand to help hold a glass and type.

甚至能够移动我的手指

Even to be able to move my fingers

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是我无法做到的事情。而且，当然，像那样移动手臂，这也是我无法做到的。

This is something that I couldn't do. And, of course, moving the the the arm like that, this is something that I couldn't do either.

这太不可思议了。

That's incredible.

确实令人难以置信。我的意思是，我不想假装我每天都在使用这只左臂。要让世界上每一位四肢瘫痪者都能恢复功能，还有很长的路要走。但这无疑是一次成功，因为我看到我能做一些以前无法做到的事情。

It's really incredible. I mean, don't want to pretend that I'm using this left arm on a daily basis. There is a long, long way to get it functional for every quadriplegic in the world. But it was certainly a success because I see that I can do things that I wouldn't I was not able to do before.

但还发生了别的事情。经过一段时间使用数字桥梁后，阿诺和格特·扬都提高了在系统关闭时移动瘫痪肢体的能力。这是怎么可能的？发生了什么？

But something else has happened as well. After using the digital bridge over time, both Arnaud and Gert Jan have improved their ability to move their paralyzed limbs even when the system is turned off. How is that possible? What happened?

这也是我们的疑问，但在人体上我们很难对此进行深入研究以理解其原因。

That was also our question, and we could not do much in a human being to understand it.

由于无法在微观层面观察患者脊髓的变化，他们通过动物研究来了解发生了什么。

Since it wasn't possible for them to see the changes in their patients' spinal cords at a microscopic level, they did studies in animals to understand what was happening.

我们了解到的情况完全出乎意料，这种训练促进了新的神经连接的生长。新的神经开始生长，并且它们生长在一种非常特殊的神经元上，这种神经元具有修复中枢神经系统的独特能力。

What we understood was completely unexpected, that this training enabled the growth of new nerve connection. So new nerves start growing and they grow on one very specific type of neuron that is uniquely equipped to repair the central nervous system.

因此我们也观察到，脊髓损伤的严重程度越低，再生效果就越好。如果是完全性脊髓损伤，再生会很困难。但确实，有一些变化正在发生。

So we also observed that the less the severity of the spinal cord lesion is, the better the regrowth happens. If it's a complete spinal cord injury, it will be hard to regrow. But indeed, there is something happening.

数字桥梁的效果如何，还需要在更多患者中进行研究。他们希望在未来两到三年内在美国启动临床试验。FDA已将其指定为突破性设备，这将优先审查流程。

How well the digital bridge works still needs to be studied in a lot more patients. They hope to launch clinical trials in The U. S. In the next two to three years. The FDA has already designated it as a breakthrough device, which will prioritize the review process.

而Cortine和Bloch共同创立了一家名为Onward Medical的公司，旨在将这项技术带出实验室，使其更快、更小、更广泛可用。

And Cortine and Bloch have co founded a company called Onward Medical to bring this technology out of the lab, making it faster, smaller, and widely available.

它并没有以人们可能想象的方式改变我的日常生活，比如‘她正在恢复以前的生活’。所以只要它能让我感觉良好，能站起来拥抱我的丈夫或我爱的人，那就意义重大。

It's not changing my everyday in ways people might think, Oh, she's getting back her life she had before. So as long as it makes me feel good, that I can stand up and hug my husband or hug somebody that I love, that means a lot.

你的目标是什么？

What's your goal?

去公园里，就站起来和家人一起走几步。对大多数人来说这可能不算什么散步，但对我来说，只要能让我开心就足够了。

To go out in the park and just stand up and do some steps with my family. It's not a stroll in the park how it would look for most other people, but for me it's just good enough to make me happy.

经过六个月的艰苦努力，就在玛塔即将回家之前，她做到了多年前医生告诉她永远无法做到的事情。

After six months of hard work, just before Marta was to return to her family, she did what doctors years ago told her she never would.

哦，我的天啊。

Oh my god.

她走了几步。没有安全带来支撑她，只有她的助行器和钢铁般的意志。

She took a few steps. No harness to hold her, just her walker and her iron will.

在好莱坞，演员们试图迎合行业对美貌和市场吸引力的标准并不罕见，他们像国际象棋大师一样精心策划每一套服装和职业发展。但杰米·李·柯蒂斯不是其中之一。她坦率而随性，敢于直言不讳，即使是对自己也是如此。我们在洛杉矶见到了杰米·李·柯蒂斯，66岁的她正享受着新一轮获奖表演的喜悦。我们询问了她长达数十年的职业生涯。

In Hollywood, it's not unusual for actors to try and fit the industry standard of beauty and marketability, plotting every outfit and career move with the prowess of a chess master. But Jamie Lee Curtis is not one of them. Candid and spontaneous, she fearlessly calls it as she sees it, even when it comes to herself. We met Jamie Lee Curtis in Los Angeles, where, at 66 years old, she is savoring a new wave of award winning performances. We asked her about her decades long career.

她告诉我们，这一切绝非计划之中。

She told us it was anything but planned.

我的人生取决于几个我从未预料到的瞬间。我从未想过自己会成为一名演员。我的牙齿颜色像混凝土一样，是灰色的。我很可爱，但并不漂亮。

My life hinged on a couple seconds I never saw coming. I never thought I'd be an actor in my life. My teeth were the color of concrete. They were gray. I was cute, but not pretty.

所以我从未预料到那一切。

And so I never saw that coming.

他们付钱给她，或许她本该如此。杰米·李·柯蒂斯出生于好莱坞皇室，是银幕偶像托尼·柯蒂斯和珍妮特·利的女儿，这两位是电影黄金时代最耀眼的明星。但杰米·李说她曾想当一名警察。大学放假回家时，一位朋友说服她去环球影业试镜。

They paid She probably should have. Jamie Lee Curtis was born into Hollywood royalty, the daughter of screen idols Tony Curtis and Janet Leigh, two of the biggest stars during the golden age of cinema. But Jamie Lee says she wanted to be a cop. She was home from college when a friend convinced her to audition for Universal Studios.

我演了那场戏，她说演得很好之类的。我当时就说，好的，太棒了，谢谢。我说，听着。

I did the scene, and she said that was very good or whatever. And I was like, okay. Great. Thanks. I said, listen.

如果这事能成，我需要知道结果，因为我大概两天后就要回大学了。非常实际。然后她就笑了之类的。第二天他们给我打电话，给了我一份环球影业的七年合同，然后我就退学了。

If this is gonna work out, I need to know because I'm going back to college in, like, two days. Very practical. So, like, she laughed or whatever. And they called me the next day, and they gave me a seven year contract at Universal, and I quit college.

几乎立刻，她就接拍了1978年的恐怖电影《月光光心慌慌》。

Almost immediately, she booked the 1978 horror film Halloween.

嗯，今晚我在这里。我不会让任何事发生在你身上。

Well, I'm here tonight. I'm not about to let anything happen to you.

柯蒂斯被选中饰演书卷气的保姆劳里·斯特罗德，她被一个无情的杀手恐吓。这是她的第一部电影。她当时19岁，担任主角。

Curtis was cast as the bookish babysitter, Laurie Strode, terrorized by an unrelenting killer. It was her first movie. She was 19 years old playing the lead.

当时人们是不是在说，哦，她得到这份工作是因为她的父母是谁，因为她的家世？

Were people saying, oh, she got the job because of who her parents are because of the pedigree?

我知道。我敢保证，我母亲演过《惊魂记》这个事实是一个决定因素，也许那能给他们带来一点额外的宣传。但这让我进入最后两人名单了吗？没有。是我的试镜让我进入了最后两人名单。

I know. I guarantee you the fact that my mother was in Psycho was a determining factor that maybe that will get them a little extra publicity. Now did it get me to that final two? No. My auditions got me to the final two.

这是一部成本30万美元的恐怖片。这不是很多人想要接的工作。

This was a $300,000 horror movie. This was not a job that a lot of people wanted.

《月光光心慌慌》最终获得了超过7000万美元的票房，成为了一部邪典经典，但它并没有真正开启杰米·李·柯蒂斯的职业生涯。

Halloween ended up grossing more than $70,000,000 and became a cult classic, But it didn't exactly launch Jamie Lee Curtis's career.

我在《月光光心慌慌》之后的重要突破是，和珍妮特·李一起出演了《爱之船》，美丽的珍妮特·李扮演我的母亲。然后我参演了一集《查理的天使》，在其中饰演谢丽尔·拉德的挚友，一位职业高尔夫球手。所以这就是我在《月光光心慌慌》之后得到的两份工作。

My big break after Halloween was I was on Love Boat with Janet Lee, beautiful Janet Lee playing my mother. And then I was in a Charlie's Angels episode where I am Cheryl Ladd's best friend, pro golfer. So those are the two jobs I get post Halloween.

你当时有没有想过，比如，人们不是在雇佣我。他们只是想要我妈妈在身边，或者只是看中这个名字？

Were you thinking at this point, like, people aren't hiring me. They just want my mom around or the name?

你知道吗？确实如此。

You know what? Sure.

但这没有让你困扰吗？

But didn't that bother you?

没有。因为...因为我在做我自己的事。

No. Because because I was doing my thing.

柯蒂斯的事业是通过一系列恐怖电影转型为新一代尖叫女王的。

Curtis's thing was transforming into a scream queen for a new generation with a string of horror movies.

我读到说你其实根本不喜欢恐怖片。

I read that you didn't even like scary movies.

我不喜欢恐怖片。现在还是？现在还是。哦，拜托。太糟糕了。

I don't like scary movies. Still? Still. Oh, please. Awful.

为什么？

Why?

太糟糕了。耍小聪明的回答是因为生活本身就够可怕了。

Awful. The smart aleck answer is because life is scary.

从一个以无畏闻名的女演员口中听到这个很令人惊讶。在《真实的谎言》中与阿诺德·施瓦辛格上演床戏之前，柯蒂斯在约翰·兰迪斯执导的首部喜剧片《颠倒乾坤》中与艾迪·墨菲和丹·艾克罗伊德对戏也毫不逊色。她说她饰演的奥菲莉亚——一个聪明善良的街头女郎——才是真正开启她职业生涯的角色。

It's a surprising thing to hear from an actress who's known for being fearless. Before that spin around the bedpost opposite Arnold Schwarzenegger in true lies, Curtis held her own next to Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd in her first comedy feature trading places directed by John Landis. She says her role as Ophelia, a wise, kind hearted streetwalker, is what really launched her career.

你知道那些人

You know those people

那个部分，我是说，她很有韧劲，口香糖和

That part, I mean, she's gritty and the gum and the

整个事情。你带来了多少？

whole thing. How much of that did you bring?

约翰每天都往我嘴里塞口香糖。真的，我就站在那里，他会走过来。我会说，好吧。我是说，这是个很棒的角色。但还有一点，这很关键，这会带来和平。

John stuck gum in my mouth every day. Literally, I would stand there, and he'd walk up. I'd go, Okay. I mean, it's, you know, just a great part. But here's the other thing, and this is crucial, this will make the peace.

如果我没有出演《颠倒乾坤》，约翰·克里斯就不会为我写《一条叫旺达的鱼》。

If I'm not in Trading Places, John Cleese does not write A Fish Cold Wanda for me.

我会珍惜它的。

I'll treasure it.

如果我没有出演《一条叫旺达的鱼》，詹姆斯·卡梅隆就不会为我写《真实的谎言》中的角色。那几部电影确实成就了我的事业。

If I'm not in A Fish Cold Wanda, Jim Cameron does not write the part in True Lies for me. And that grouping of films gave me my career, for sure.

如果这一切听起来像童话故事，那并不是。到了八十年代中期，杰米·李·柯蒂斯已经是一位知名演员，当时她与约翰·特拉沃尔塔合作了一部叫《完美》的电影。从各方面和每个角度来看，她确实如此。我

If it all sounds like a fairy tale, it wasn't. By the mid eighties, Jamie Lee Curtis was a well established actor when she made a movie with John Travolta called Perfect. By all accounts and from every angle, she was. I

作为一名演员，我非常认真地对待它，当然，我穿紧身衣确实很好看。相信我，我看过太多自己穿那件紧身衣的照片，连我自己都会觉得，真的吗？拜托。

took it very seriously as an actor, and, of course, I look really good in a leotard. And believe me, I've seen enough pictures of me in that leotard where even I go like, really? Come on.

但她说，一位参与电影拍摄的摄影师批评了她的外貌。

But she says a cinematographer working on the film criticized the way she looked.

就像是说，是啊，我今天不拍她了。她的眼睛有眼袋。而我当时才25岁。所以，他那样说让我非常尴尬。

It was like, yeah. I'm not shooting her today. Her eyes are baggy. And I was 25. So, for him to say that was very embarrassing.

所以，电影一拍完，我就去做了些整形手术。

So, as soon as the movie finished, I ended up having some plastic surgery.

那结果怎么样？

And how did that go?

不太好。在你25或26岁的时候，这根本不是你该做的事。我立刻就后悔了，并且从那以后或多或少一直在后悔。

Not well. That's just not what you want to do when you're 25 or 26. And I regretted it immediately and have kind of sort of regretted it since.

即使现在也是？

Even now?

之所以现在这样，是因为我已经成为一个公开倡导者，告诉女性们：你很美，现在的你就很完美。所以，哦，是的。我我我，那件事对我来说并不好。

Way so now because I've become a really public advocate to say to women, You're gorgeous, and you're perfect the way you are. So oh, yeah. I I I it was not a good thing for me to do.

那就是你开始服用——你对此一直很公开。你开始服用止痛药，并且

That's when you started taking you've been public about this. You started taking pain killers and

嗯，是他们给你的。我变得非常迷恋阿片类药物带来的那种温水浴般的感觉，你知道，喝一点。从不过量。从未有任何公开的大动静。我非常安静，非常私密地进行。

Well, they give them to you. I became very enamored with the warm bath of an opiate, you know, drank a little bit. Never to excess. Never any big public demonstrations. I was very quiet, very private about it.

但这确实变成了一种依赖。

But it it became a a dependency for sure.

柯蒂斯说她已经保持清醒二十六年了。

Curtis says she's been sober for twenty six years.

当你分享你的故事时，你担心过吗

Did you worry when you shared your story

关于你是如何

of how you got

清醒到会影响你的事业吗？

sober that it would impact your career?

我觉得我更担心的是卖那种让你拉肚子的酸奶会影响我的事业，而不是承认自己有瘾。我开这个玩笑，是个有趣的玩笑，但却是事实。现在就参加Activia挑战吧。有效果否则免费。

I think I worried more that selling yogurt that makes you was gonna impact my career than for me to acknowledge that I had an addiction. I make the joke. It's a funny joke, but it's true. Take the Activia Challenge now. It works or it's free.

啊，那个酸奶广告，被《周六夜现场》著名地恶搞过。

Ah, that yogurt commercial, famously parodied by Saturday Night Live.

现在说好消息。

Now the good news.

我刚发现

I just discovered

柯蒂斯，好莱坞最大的明星之一，突然开始卖连裤袜和吆喝租车服务了。

Curtis, one of the biggest stars in Hollywood, suddenly began selling pantyhose and hawking rental cars.

赫兹公司胜出了。

Hertz came out on top.

《真实的谎言》已经赚了4亿美元。你本可以

True Lies had made $400,000,000. You could

做任何你想做的事

have done anything you wanted

，但你却接了那些代言工作。为什么？

to do, but you were taking those spokesperson jobs. Why?

主要是因为那些工作能让我在家陪伴孩子。所以我是一个不完美的，你知道，职场妈妈，因为没有哪个职场妈妈是完美的。

For the most part, because they allowed me to stay home with my kids. So I am I am an imperfect, you know, working mom because no working moms are perfect.

都是勉强拼凑起来的。

It's all Scotch taped together.

我正在看着一位。你正在和一位交谈。我们让它看起来很好。我们以为我们做到了。但事实是我们感觉很糟糕。

I'm looking at one. You're speaking to one. We make it look good. We think we've done it. But the truth is we feel badly.

但我知道我为了追求自己的创造力，花了多少时间远离他们。

But I know how much time away from them I spent in pursuit of my own creativity.

柯蒂斯与克里斯托弗·格斯特育有两个孩子，后者是演员兼导演，以《摇滚万万岁》最为人熟知。

Curtis has two children with Christopher Guest, the actor and director best known for This Is Spinal Tap.

它以其延音效果闻名。我的意思是，可以一直持续下去。

It's famous for its sustain. I mean, can just hold it.

嗯，我是说，所以你并不

Well, I mean, so you don't

并通过一系列伪纪录片对狗展乃至电影制作进行调侃。他们已结婚四十多年。

And taking aim at dog shows and even filmmaking in a series of mockumentaries. They've been married for more than forty years.

我母亲结过四次婚。我父亲结过五次婚。加起来是九次。我的继父结过三次婚。所以我直系亲属里总共有12段婚姻。

My mother was married four times. My father was married five times. That's nine. My stepfather was married three. So I come from an immediate family of 12 marriages.

所以

So

我的笑点是，我至今还和我的第一任丈夫在一起。

my joke, I'm still married to my first husband.

你

You

你知道，对我来说，维持与我丈夫的婚姻关系很重要，他是我的丈夫。

know, it was important to me that I stay married to my husband, that he's my husband.

你有没有错过某个希望自己接下的角色？

Do you ever pass a role that you wish you had taken?

没有。我接的时候他们的孩子已经长大了，柯蒂斯从拼车接送孩子的任务中解脱出来，毫无歉意地投身于自己的事业。

No. I've taken their kids were grown, Curtis traded in carpool duty for unapologetically driving her own career.

我们往这边走。

We're going this way.

她经营着自己的制片公司，该公司正在制作一部由妮可·基德曼主演的电视剧，以及一部关于2018年灾难性的天堂野火的电影。她还运营着自己的慈善机构。柯蒂斯为洛杉矶儿童医院筹集了超过一百万美元，并向近期野火的受害者捐赠了另一百万美元，这些野火摧毁了阿尔塔迪纳和太平洋帕利塞德的大部分地区，包括这所房子，她曾在这里拍摄了千禧年热门影片《辣妈辣妹》以及即将上映的续集《更辣的星期五》。在首部《月光光心慌慌》上映四十年后，她终于让这个系列画上了句号。但正是她在六十多岁时接演的一系列原始而脆弱的角色，让她迎来了连自己都未曾想象过的复出。

She runs her own production company, which has a TV series in the works starring Nicole Kidman and a feature film about the catastrophic Paradise Wildfires in 2018. She's also running her own charity. Curtis has raised over a million dollars for Children's Hospital Los Angeles and donated another million to victims of the recent wildfires, which destroyed much of Altadena and the Pacific Palisades, including this home where she filmed the millennial hit Freaky Friday and the upcoming sequel Freakier Friday. And four decades after the first Halloween, she finally put that franchise to rest. But it is a string of raw vulnerable characters that came to Curtis in her sixties that led to a comeback even she never imagined.

你知道，我的意思是，他算是可爱吧。

You know, I mean, he's cute ish.

在《最后的歌舞女郎》中饰演那位年迈的女服务员。

Playing the aging waitress in The Last Showgirl.

我也可以给你找份工作。

I could also get you a job.

或者在Hulu剧集《熊家餐馆》里，饰演那位易燃易爆的女家长唐娜·布拉扎托，吸尽厨房里的氧气。

Or sucking the oxygen out of the kitchen as the combustible matriarch, Donna Brazato, in Hulu's TV series, The Bear.

唐娜，我脑海里还浮现着她用指甲抹黄油，脸颊上粘着睫毛的画面。

Donna, the images in my mind of her buttering the bread with the nails and the eyelash on the cheek.

那根睫毛。就那一根睫毛，我觉得，为我赢得了一座艾美奖。我发誓。去吧，我没事。

The eyelash. That single eyelash, I think, won me an Emmy. I swear to god. Go. I'm good.

去吧，去坐着。我一生都在等待唐娜这个角色。耐心地、安静地烹饪着。我自己的创造性精神生活，我自己的，你知道，我自己的酗酒问题。

Go. Go sit. I've waited my whole life for Donna. Patiently, quietly cooking. My own creative mental life, my own, you know, my own alcoholism.

而且剧本写得如此之美，你几乎无需多做任何表演。

And it's just so beautifully written that you don't have to do anything.

但正是2022年那部神秘又有些烧脑的《瞬息全宇宙》，将杰米·李·柯蒂斯推出了她的舒适区。

But it was twenty twenty two's mystical, somewhat mind bending everything everywhere all at once that pushed Jamie Lee Curtis out of her comfort zone.

你拿到那个角色时理解它吗？

Did you understand that role when you got it?

一秒钟都没懂。我理解那个剧本了吗？没有。

Not one second of it. Did I understand that script? No.

仅凭一叠收据，我就能追溯起起落落。

With nothing but a stack of receipts, I can trace the ups and downs.

柯蒂斯表示，她确实理解德尔德拉·博伯德——那个来自地狱的冷酷官僚。

Curtis says she did understand Deirdre Boubirdeh, the hardboiled bureaucrat from hell.

情况看起来不妙。

It does not look good.

我们都认识德尔德拉。她是一个不被爱的女人。她是一个在工作中运用权力来控制别人的人，因为她生活中缺乏爱。

We all know Deirdre. She's a woman who's not loved. She's a woman who uses her power in her job to control people because she has no love in her life.

柯蒂斯变得认不出来了，但她的表演并未被忽视。

Curtis was unrecognizable, but her performance did not go unnoticed.

杰米·李·柯蒂斯。之前

Jamie Lee Curtis. Before

不过，在那之前，首先，

the moment, though, first,

当他们叫到你的名字时

when they call your name

是的。

Yes.

你说，我想

You say, I think

完全正确。因为那本不该发生的。

up. Totally. Because that wasn't supposed to happen.

你妈妈从未获得过奥斯卡奖。爸爸也从未获得过

Your mom never won an Oscar. Dad never won

奥斯卡奖。但他们两人都曾获得提名。

an Oscar. They were both nominated.

这是否让你觉得与那些曾经是巨星的父母站在了平等的位置上？我

Does this make you feel like you're on even footing with your parents who were these gigantic I

思考过超越我的父母，在情感上我已经做到了。我在清醒自律方面超越了父母。我母亲受限于行业对她的要求、期望和允许。我母亲会讨厌《最后的舞女》，因为我展示了真实的自己。所以我不想说超越了她们，但我拥有了自由。

think about surpassing my parents, which I have emotionally. I've surpassed my parents with sobriety. My mother was restricted by what the industry wanted from her and expected from her and would allow from her. My mother would have hated The Last Showgirl because I showed what I really looked like. And so I have I don't wanna say surpassed them, but I I have freedom.

获得奥斯卡奖的第二天早上，一位摄影师请柯蒂斯重现近五十年前女演员费·唐纳薇与她的奖杯的经典照片。她同意了这个请求，但有一个条件。

The morning after her Oscar win, a photographer asked Curtis to recreate a photo of actress Faye Dunaway and her statue from nearly fifty years ago. She agreed with one condition.

我对他说，好的。但我不想严肃地拍。我们必须拍得有趣些。杰米

And I said to him, yeah. But I won't do it seriously. We have to make it funny. Jamie

·李·柯蒂斯不仅接纳了不完美，更将其升华为艺术。《60分钟》最后一分钟。下周《60分钟》将为您讲述32岁的科技亿万富翁帕尔默·拉奇关于未来战争的大胆构想。拉奇是ANDREL公司的创始人。

Lee Curtis hasn't just embraced imperfection. She's made it an art. The last minute of sixty minutes. Next week on sixty minutes, we'll tell you about 32 year old tech billionaire Palmer Lucky who has big ideas about the future of warfare. Lucky is the founder of ANDREL.

该公司生产一系列自主武器，看起来像是科幻电影里的产物。比如'Roadrunner'，这是一种涡轮喷气动力的无人机拦截器，能够自主起飞、识别并摧毁目标。完全不需要士兵参与。它由人工智能驱动。这是个令人不安的概念

It makes a line of autonomous weapons that look like something out of a sci fi movie. There's the Roadrunner, a turbojet powered drone interceptor that can take off, identify, and destroy a target. No soldier needed. It's powered by artificial intelligence. It's a scary idea

对某些人来说确实如此。

to some people.

这确实是个令人不安的概念，

It's a scary idea,

但这就是我们生活的世界。我认为更可怕的是想象一个完全没有智能水平的武器系统。制造地雷并不具有道德优势——它们能区分满载儿童的校车和俄罗斯装甲车吗？这根本不是智能武器与无武器之间的选择。

but I mean, that's the world we live in. I'd say it's a lot scarier, for example, to imagine a weapon system that doesn't have any level of intelligence at all. There's no moral high ground in making a landmine. Can't They tell the difference between a school bus full of children and Russian armor. It's not a question between smart weapons and no weapons.

而是智能武器与愚蠢武器之间的选择。

It's a question between smart weapons and dumb weapons.