2025年8月10日：卡普阿科纳号与杰米·李·柯蒂斯

推翻罗诉韦德案判决，剥夺宪法赋予的生殖健康权利。你已听闻这些头条新闻。现在该采取行动了。近80%的美国人认为，我们应该有权自主决定自己的身体与未来，而非由立法者掌控。计划生育协会致力于确保每个人都能获得优质的基础医疗服务，并将长期坚守这一使命。

Overturning the Roe v Wade decision and wiping out constitutional rights to reproductive health. You've heard the headlines. Now it's time to take action. Nearly 80% of Americans agree that we should have the power to make our own decisions about our bodies and futures, not lawmakers. Planned Parenthood is here to ensure that everyone has access to essential, high quality health care, and they are here for the long haul.

患者信赖计划生育协会。计划生育协会需要您的支持。请访问plannedparenthood.org/defend进行捐赠。

Patients count on Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood counts on you. Donate at plannedparenthood.org/defend.

嗨，我是Mint Mobile的瑞安·雷诺兹。本想用有趣的方式告诉你们：每月15美元享受优质无限流量的优惠又回来了。我原打算制作15美元纸币来宣传，结果发现这完全违法。所以我的广告创意就这么泡汤了。

Hey. It's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

欢迎登陆mintmobile.com/switch试用。

Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch.

需预付45美元购买三个月套餐（相当于每月15美元）。仅限新用户前三个月享受此优惠。35GB后若网络繁忙可能降速。另需支付税费。详情见mintmobile.com。

Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See you mintmobile.com.

卡帕科纳号曾是德国版的泰坦尼克号。

The Caparcona was once a German version of the Titanic.

船上配有网球场、恒温泳池，以及能眺望海景的顶级餐厅和奢华头等舱。

It had its own tennis court. It had a heating swimming pool. It had the most wonderful restaurant where you could look out onto the sea, the most wonderful first class cabins.

那是极尽奢华的

It was a luxuries

是艘极致豪华的邮轮，绝对名副其实。

It was a luxury luxury cruise liner. Absolutely was.

但在二战期间，纳粹将卡帕科纳号改造成浮动集中营。解放前夕，该船遭轰炸导致数千人丧生。为何它成为攻击目标？谁派出了战机？答案或许出乎你的意料。

But during World War two, the Nazis turned the Kaparcona into a floating concentration camp. Just days before liberation, the ship was bombed, killing thousands on board. Why was it targeted, and who sent the warplanes? The answers might surprise you.

塔米？在凭借恐怖电影《月光光心慌慌》奠定好莱坞地位四十年后，杰米·李·柯蒂斯正享受着新一轮获奖表演的喜悦，她接连塑造了一系列令人窒息的原始而情绪不稳定的角色。唐娜，我脑海中浮现她用指甲涂黄油面包、脸颊沾着睫毛的画面。

Tammy? Four decades after she cemented her place in Hollywood with the horror movie Halloween, Jamie Lee Curtis is savoring a new wave of award winning performances, playing a string of raw, volatile characters that suck the oxygen out of the room. Donna, the images in my mind of her buttering the bread with the nails and the eyelash on the cheek.

那根睫毛。就那一根睫毛，我想，为我赢得了艾美奖。我向天发誓。去吧。去坐下。

The eyelash. That single eyelash, I think, won me an Emmy. I swear to God. Go. Go sit.

我是莱斯利·斯塔尔。

I'm Leslie Stahl.

我是比尔·惠特克。我是安德森·库珀。

I'm Bill Whitaker. I'm Anderson Cooper.

我是莎伦·阿方索。

I'm Sharon Alfonso.

我是约翰·维特海姆。

I'm John Wertheim.

我是塞西莉亚·维加。

I'm Cecilia Vega.

我是斯科特·佩利。以上是今晚《60分钟》的报道。

I'm Scott Pelly. Those stories tonight on sixty Minutes.

正在流媒体播出。

Now streaming.

又见面了。

Hi again.

电视上最古怪的犯罪破解者。

TV's quirkiest crime solver.

我是艾尔丝贝斯·塔西奥尼，与警方合作办案。

I'm Elsbeth Tassioni. I work with the police.

正在调查此案。

Is on the case.

我喜欢用大量证据支撑我的奇特理论。

I like my outlandish theories with a heavy dose of evidence.

并准备好与一众客串明星正面交锋。

And ready to go toe to toe with a cavalcade of guest stars.

你是说这现在是一起谋杀调查？

Are you saying that this is now a murder investigation?

看起来确实如此。

It's starting to look that way.

别错过备受好评的热剧《艾尔的最佳》的每一刻。全集现已在Paramount+上线，秋季回归CBS。

Don't miss a moment of critically acclaimed hit Elle's Best. All episodes now streaming on Paramount plus and return CBS fall.

听起来很有趣。

That sounds like fun.

当然，谋杀并不有趣。现已上线。当一切

Obviously, murder's not fun. Now streaming. When everything's

危难时刻，真正的英雄挺身而出。电视上最火爆的节目《烈火家园》。

on the line, real heroes rise to the occasion. TV's hottest show is fire country.

我们是消防员，我们

We're firefighters. We're

会想办法把你救出去。

find a way to get you out of here.

共同承受打击。

Take the hits together.

我们是同一队的。

We're on the same team.

我就在这里陪着你

I'm right here with you

无论如何。

no matter what.

我绝不会让你在深水区孤立无援。

I would never leave you hanging in the deep end.

这个地方是

This place is a way

给你新家人的方式。

of giving you new family.

《烈火家园》。全集现已在Paramount+平台上线。

Fire Country. All episodes now streaming on Paramount plus.

泰坦尼克号的故事人尽皆知——这艘奢华的英国远洋邮轮撞上冰山沉没。但你可能从未听说过德国的泰坦尼克号‘卡帕科纳号’。二战前，它是富人们的游轮。战争末期，纳粹将其改造成浮动集中营。当解放前数小时的空袭发生时，挤满囚犯的卡帕科纳号正停泊在波罗的海的吕贝克湾，船上几乎无人幸免。

Everyone knows the story of the Titanic, the opulent British ocean liner that struck an iceberg and sank. But it's likely you have never heard of the Kaparcona, a German version of the Titanic. Before World War two, the vessel was a cruise ship for the well-to-do. By the end of the war, the Nazis had transformed it into a floating concentration camp. Packed with prisoners, the Kaparcona was anchored in Lubbock Bay in the Baltic Sea when an aerial attack just hours before liberation killed nearly everyone on board.

正如我们十月的首次报道，这艘船从豪华邮轮沦为死亡陷阱的离奇旅程，是我们所遇见过最骇人却又鲜为人知的战争故事之一。阳光明媚时，德国波罗的海沿岸风景如画，但这美景掩盖了难以想象的恐怖——它深深刻在当地人的记忆里，也铭刻在这块海滨纪念碑上，上面写着‘卡帕科纳’以及德语‘恐惧’、‘惊慌’与‘悲痛’。

As we first reported in October, the ship's improbable journey from luxury liner to death trap is one of the most horrific and little known war stories we have encountered. On sunlit days, Germany's Baltic Coast looks idyllic, but this beauty masks an unthinkable horror, one that's etched in the local memory and on this beachside marker bearing the name Kaparkona and the German words for fear, panic, and grief.

这里如此宁静祥和，然而那片海域却是一座坟场。来到这样的地方，你能真切感受到历史的沉重。

It's so calm, so peaceful, and yet out there is a graveyard. You can come to a place like this and just feel the weight of the history.

英国历史学家比尔·尼文毕生研究大屠杀。我们在吕贝克湾与他相见，1945年5月3日遭轰炸的卡帕科纳号和一艘小型货轮的记忆至今仍萦绕着这片海岸。

British historian Bill Niven has spent much of his career studying the holocaust. We met him at Lubyck Bay, where the memory of the Kaparcona and a smaller cargo ship bombed on 05/03/1945 still haunts this shore.

这是什么地方？这是纪念两艘沉船遇难者的纪念碑，约7000人因此丧生。它铭记着所有国籍的沉船受害者。

What is this place? This is a memorial, an honorary memorial to the victims of the two ships that went down with a loss of some 7,000 lives. It recalls all the nationalities that were victims of the sinking of the ships.

船上还有美国人？

There were Americans on the ships?

是的。有希腊人、意大利人，当然还有犹太人，这里用大卫之星代表他们。

Yes. There were Greeks. There were Italians, and the Jewish people, of course, represented here by the Star of David.

大部分遇难者都在卡帕科纳号上。

Most of the victims were on the Cap Arcona.

每

Every

在袭击周年纪念日，这里会举行一场肃穆的仪式，以纪念那些逝去和遭受苦难的人们。

year on the anniversary of the attack, a somber ceremony is held at this site to remember those who perished and those who suffered.

我的父亲是卡帕科诺伊号沉船事件的幸存者之一。

My father was one of the survivors of the sinking of the Kapakonoi.

布鲁诺·诺伊拉特·威尔逊来此纪念他的父亲威利，他是被关押在卡帕科纳号上的政治犯。只有约400名囚犯在那次袭击中幸存，包括布鲁诺的父亲。对你来说，身处此地有何感受？

Bruno Neuerath Wilson came to honor his father, Willie, a political prisoner held on the Caparcona. Only about 400 prisoners survived the attack, including Bruno's father. What's it like for you to be in this place?

当我们来到卡帕科纳号沉没的地方时，我试图想象当时的情景。但我真的无法想象船上发生了什么。

When we go to the place where the Caparcona sank, I try to imagine what happened. I really cannot imagine what happened on the ship.

没有人能预见到卡帕科纳号的这种结局。1927年，这艘船在盛大的庆祝中下水，被誉为大西洋的女王，用两周时间将富裕的乘客从欧洲运送到南美。它在鼎盛时期是什么样子？

No one could have imagined this end for the Caparcona. Launched with great fanfare in 1927, the ship became known as the queen of the Atlantic, transporting well heeled passengers from Europe to South America in two weeks. What was it like in its heyday?

嗯，它是德国人拥有的最美丽的船只之一。它有自己的网球场，有加热游泳池，还有最棒的餐厅，可以眺望大海，以及最豪华的头等舱。

Well, it was one of the most beautiful ships the Germans had. It had its own tennis court. It had a heating swimming pool. It had the most wonderful restaurant where you could look out onto the sea, the most wonderful first class cabins.

那是奢华的

It was a luxury

那是一艘豪华的豪华游轮。绝对是。

It was a luxury luxury cruise liner. Absolutely was.

卡帕科纳号横跨大西洋数十次，但在1933年，德国经历了一场巨变。等等。等等。阿道夫·希特勒上台。1939年，当德国军队入侵波兰时，纳粹征用了卡帕科纳号，将其用作波罗的海上的浮动军营。

The Cap Arcona traversed the Atlantic dozens of times, but in 1933, Germany underwent a sea change. Hold. Hold. Adolf Hitler came to power. In 1939, as German troops invaded Poland, the Nazis commandeered the Caparcona to serve as a floating barracks in the Baltic.

讽刺的是，在战前的最后一次航行中，这艘远洋客轮搭载了一些德国犹太乘客，他们购买了前往南美安全的船票。但大多数犹太人无处可逃。

Ironically, on one of its last trips before the war, the ocean liner carried some German Jewish passengers who had bought tickets to safety in South America. But most Jews had no way to escape.

我们被集中起来送往集中营，只有我们三人——我母亲、我和我的弟弟。

We were rounded up and sent to the concentration camp, just the three of us, my mother, I, and my younger brother.

95岁的曼弗雷德·戈德堡被纳粹强行从德国中部家乡卡塞尔带走时，年仅11岁。

95 year old Manfred Goldberg was just 11 when the Nazis forcibly removed him and other Jews from his hometown of Kassel in Central Germany.

11岁到15岁那段残酷经历，至今仍清晰地烙印在我的脑海里。

The cruel experiences during my young years between 11 and 15, they're firmly lodged clearly in my mind to this day.

他先后被关押在拉脱维亚里加隔都和四个不同的集中营，最终幸存下来。

He would survive confinement in the Riga Latvia ghetto and four different concentration camps.

我们失去了名字，每人被分配一个编号。在臭名昭著的奥斯维辛集中营，囚犯的编号会被纹在手臂上，但我们必须记住自己的数字。我的编号是56478——在集中营里如果忘记编号，通常会受到惩罚。

We lost our names. Each one of us was given a number instead. In the well known camp of Auschwitz, people had their number tattooed on their arm, but we had to remember our numbers. My number incidentally was 56478. If you forgot it in the camps, you were usually punished for it.

所以我将这个数字深深刻在脑海里，终生难忘。

So I buried it in my mind so as never to forget it, and I won't as long as I live.

在纳粹占领的拉脱维亚，戈德堡和母亲罗莎等囚犯白天被迫修复被炸毁的铁轨。某天夜里返回营地时，他们发现党卫军带走了曼弗雷德的弟弟赫尔曼和另外三个孩子，这些人从此杳无音信。

In Nazi held Latvia, Goldberg, his mother Rosa, and other prisoners were forced to repair bombed out railroad tracks during the day. When they returned to camp one night, they learned the SS had taken Manfred's little brother, Herman, and three other children. They were never seen again.

他们就这样从地球上消失了。第二天早晨，我和母亲却不得不照常列队去干活，仿佛什么都没发生过。这件事对你们母子造成了什么影响？我和弟弟感情很深，因为母亲偷偷带了些童话书，我们常常并肩躺在地上，由我念故事给他听——那时他还不会自己阅读。

They just disappeared off the face of the earth. The next morning, both my mother and I had to line up and go to work as though nothing untoward had happened. What did that do to you and your mother? I had grown close to my brother because my mother packed some fairy tale books, stories for for small children, and we would lie on the floor side by side, and I would read to him because he couldn't read himself. As a result, we were very close to each other.

所以当弟弟失踪时，我的悲痛几乎不亚于失去幼子的母亲。他进集中营时七岁，失踪那天刚满九岁。

So when he disappeared, I was nearly as heartbroken as my mother at the loss of her little baby, so to speak. He was seven when he went into the camps and nine the day he disappeared.

戈德堡和母亲最终被关进纳粹占领波兰的施图特霍夫集中营，另一个叫乔治·施瓦布的男孩也囚禁于此。

Goldberg and his mother ended up in the Stutthof camp in Nazi occupied Poland. Another young boy, George Schwab, was imprisoned there too.

焚尸炉一直在焚烧尸体，毒气室，太可怕了。

The crematoria, burning of bodies all the time, gassing, terrible.

施瓦布现已93岁，但当年德国士兵入侵他的家乡——拉脱维亚的利亚帕亚时，他只有9岁。施瓦布的父亲是当地一位著名医生，试图保护镇上的其他犹太人。

Schwab is 93, but he was only nine when German soldiers invaded his hometown of Liapaya, Latvia. Schwab's father, a prominent physician, tried to protect other Jews in town.

他注意到党卫军的卡车正在逼近，便挥手示意其他犹太人分散。他们逮捕了他，打瞎了他的一只眼睛，把他扔进地窖，然后杀害了他。

He noticed SS trucks were approaching, and he waved for fellow Jews to disperse. And they arrested him, knocked out one eye, threw him down the cellar, and then killed him.

布鲁诺的父亲威利·诺伊拉特并非犹太人，但他积极反对纳粹政权。

Bruno's father, Willy Neuerath, was not Jewish, but he actively opposed the Nazi regime.

我的父母属于少数反抗纳粹的德国人。当然，他们并没有使用武器战斗。

My parents belonged to the small minority of German people who fighted against the Nazis. They didn't fight with weapons, of course.

用言语战斗。

Fight with their words.

是的。用纸张战斗，印刷的纸张。

Yes. Fighting with papers, with printed papers.

威利因散发反法西斯传单被捕。

Willy was arrested for distributing anti fascist flyers.

他们被带到布痕瓦尔德集中营，之后又将他转移到汉堡附近的诺因加默集中营。

They brought them to Buchenwald, and from Buchenwald, they brought him to the concentration camp Neuengame by Hamburg.

诺因加默劳改营主要关押政治犯。历史学家比尔·尼文告诉我们，在这座巨大的仓库里，像威利·诺伊拉特这样的囚犯被迫制作砖块。走进这里是什么感觉？

The Neuengame work camp mostly held political prisoners. Inside this massive warehouse, historian Bill Niven told us prisoners like Willie Neuerath made bricks. What does it feel like to walk in here?

这里宛如一座死亡工厂。你能感受到这个地方曾发生的一切。

It feels like a factory of death. You can sense what went on in this place.

但这里并非死亡集中营，而是一个劳改营。

But this was not a death camp. This was a work camp.

这种区分极其细微。在劳动过程中，他们不断死去，成批成批地死去。

It's a very, very slim distinction. During the course of this work, they die. They die in droves.

威利·诺伊拉特侥幸存活。但命运使然，他与施瓦布、戈德堡一家以及卡帕科纳号最终都来到了卢比克湾——纳粹最后的防御据点之一。1945年盟军逼近时，锈迹斑斑的卡帕科纳号被调往卢比克湾。与此同时，党卫军首领希姆莱下令撤离集中营。他们为何要清理这些地方？

Willy Neuerath managed to survive. But as fate would have it, he, Schwab, the Goldbergs, and the Kaparcona all would end up at Lubbock Bay, one of the last Nazi defensive positions. In 1945, as the allies were closing in, the Cap Arcona, now rusted and battered, was repositioned to Lubyck Bay. At the same time, SS chief Heinrich Himmler ordered the evacuation of concentration camps. Why were they trying to clear these places up?

希姆莱下达过命令：任何囚犯都不得活着落入敌手。但我认为主要动机是销毁证据，因为囚犯本身就是证据。他们会开口，会揭露纳粹犯下的暴行。

There is an order by Himmler that no prisoner is to be delivered into the hands of the enemy alive. But I think the main concern was to get rid of evidence because prisoners are evidence. They can talk. They can tell. They can speak to those atrocities that were committed by the Nazis.

所以销毁证据就意味着消灭这些人。

So getting rid of the evidence meant getting rid of human beings.

成千上万的囚犯被送往卢比克湾的纳粹据点。威利·诺伊拉特从50英里外的新加默被迫北上。来自东方施图特霍夫的乔治·施瓦布、曼弗雷德·戈德堡及其母亲则被送往一个讽刺性地名为'地狱'的附近小镇，随后被押上驳船。

Thousands of prisoners were sent to the Nazi holdout at Lubyck Bay. Willy Neuerath was forced north from Neuengama, about 50 miles. From Stutthof in the East, George Schwab, Manfred Goldberg, and his mother were sent to a nearby town aptly named Hel and put on barges.

我们必须岔开腿坐下，让后一个人坐在我们两腿之间，后背贴着前胸。这样他们才能在狭小的驳船空间里塞进最多的人。四艘拖船出现时，船员全是党卫军。每艘拖船拖一条驳船，把我们拽向大海。

We had to sit down, spread our legs wide apart so the next person could sit between our legs so that their back was touching our chest. That way they could get the maximum number of people in into that confined area of the barge. Four tugs appeared. The crews were SS people. Each one coupled themselves to one of the barges and they towed us out to sea.

我们完全不知道他们的计划，也不知道会发生什么。人们不断猜测他们打算直接在海上沉船灭口。

We had absolutely no idea what was planned, what was happening. People kept speculating that they they would just sink us at sea to get rid of us.

环境如何？哦，太可怕了，简直难以形容。没有厕所，几乎没有食物，连坐都坐不直。

What were the conditions? Oh, terrible. Just beyond description. No toilet facilities, hardly any food. You could hardly sit.

你当然可以不用睡觉。听起来像地狱。地狱。人间地狱。绝对是的。

You can certainly not sleep. Sounds like hell. Hell. Hell on earth. Absolutely.

这些驳船每艘载有约一千名囚犯，被拖船牵引着在波罗的海上航行了六天，约400英里，抵达卡帕科纳号所在位置。卡帕科纳号于1945年4月14日抵达吕贝克湾，此时距希特勒自杀还有两周，距欧洲战争结束还有三周。它停泊在离岸约两英里的海面上。这艘曾是大西洋上富人名流的游乐场、昔日‘大西洋皇后’的船只，如今引擎几乎停转，食物和饮水极度匮乏，即将变成一座浮动集中营。由于无处关押聚集的囚犯，党卫军守卫将包括威利·诺伊拉特在内的超过4000人塞进了卡帕科纳号。

The barges, each packed with about a thousand prisoners, were towed by tugboat for six days, about 400 miles across the Baltic to where the Caparcona was positioned. The Caparcona arrived in Lubeck Bay on 04/14/1945, two weeks before Hitler killed himself and three weeks before the end of the war in Europe. It was anchored out there, about two miles offshore. With its engines barely running and little in the way of food and water, the former queen of the Atlantic, a playground for the rich and famous, was about to become a floating concentration camp. With nowhere to hold the amassed prisoners, SS guards jammed more than 4,000, including Willy Neuerath, onto the Caparcona.

必须记住这艘船的设计载客量是1500人，根本不适合容纳四到五千人

And one must remember this is a ship that's meant for 1,500 people. It's not meant for for four to 5,000

囚犯。

prisoners.

所以他们是被硬塞进去的？

So they were jammed?

是被硬塞进去的

They were jammed

像沙丁鱼一样。我们知道纳粹打算如何处置船上的囚犯吗？

like sardines. Do we know what the Nazis intended to do with the prisoners on the ship?

我认为他们打算让这些人死。

I think they intended them to die.

囚犯们已经在逃离施图特霍夫的驳船上陆续死亡，这些船上载着施瓦布和戈德伯格一家。你们当时已经断粮断水了？

Prisoners already were dying on the barges fleeing Stutthof, carrying Schwab and the Goldbergs. You had been without food and water?

极少。几乎没有。极少。

Very little. Next to nothing. Very little.

进入海湾后，党卫队警卫解开了拖船的连接，让载满囚犯的船只随波漂流。

Once in the bay, the SS guards uncoupled the tugboats, leaving the prisoners adrift.

我们就这样被孤零零地留在深海区域的驳船上。

And we were left on the high scenes in the barges alone.

他们直接抛弃了你们？是的，彻底抛弃了。

They just abandoned you? Abandoned.

我们被遗弃在据说是雷区的地方。

We were left alone supposedly on minefields.

施瓦布和戈德伯格告诉我们，集中营受害者中混有少数战俘。这些人此前获得较好的食物和待遇，他们抓住了这个机会。

Schwab and Goldberg told us mixed in with the concentration camp victims were a few prisoners of war. They had been better fed and better treated, and they seized the opportunity.

他们设法撬松了几块超长地板，开始用这些木板当船桨，就这样在夜色中划行。临近黎明时，驳船搁浅了，但凡还有一丝力气的人都开始往顶层甲板爬。这意味着要跳进水里，涉水上岸。但船上还有一部分人——他们虽然活着。

They managed to prise loose some very long floorboards and began using these planks of wood as ores, and they rode in that manner into the night. Shortly before dawn, the barge ran aground, and anyone who still had an ounce of strength began clambering onto the top deck. It meant jumping into the water and wading through the water to shore. But there were a proportion of people on board. They were still alive.

他们仍有呼吸，但意识已经丧失。只是无神地坐在那里，静待命运降临。

They were still breathing, but their mind had ceased functioning. They just sat there listlessly awaiting their fate.

乔治·施瓦布所在驳船上的挪威囚犯，利用吹向海岸的风势采取了行动。

Norwegian prisoners on George Schwab's barge took advantage of the wind blowing towards shore.

他们收集了我们所有的毯子制成船帆，成功驶向陆地。你当时身体状况如何？极度虚弱。瘦得皮包骨头。

They came and collected the blankets that we had and made sails, and we managed to sail towards land. What was your condition? Terribly weak. Terribly weak. You know, I was a walking skeleton.

和船上许多人一样，他虚弱得几乎无法动弹。但一位来自家乡的狱友朱勒发现了他，强令他站起来。

Like many on board, he was almost too weak to move. But a fellow prisoner and acquaintance from his hometown named Jule saw him and demanded he get up.

朱尔算是硬拖着我。我哀求他，放过我吧。我一点力气都没有了。没有没有没有没有。

Jule sort of dragged me. I begged him, leave me alone. I have no strength. Have no no no no no.

在朱尔的帮助下，施瓦布设法从驳船里爬了出来。戈德堡一家也从他们的船里出来了，结果却在海滩上被党卫军和德军拦截。

With Jule's help, Schwab managed to climb out of the barge. The Goldbergs got out of theirs too, only to be intercepted by the SS and German troops on the beach.

他们当然对我们移动驳船并跳下船的行为暴跳如雷。于是作为报复，其中一部分人爬上了驳船，随后传来密集的枪声。那些不知如何自救的不幸者全被枪杀了，因为他们只是无精打采地坐在那里，而我们几乎确信下一个就轮到我们了。但相反，他们让我们排成了一列。

They, of course, were livid that we had moved the barge and had jumped off. So in revenge, one part of them clumbered onto the barge and would hear a lot of shooting. Everyone of these unfortunate people who no longer knew what to do to save themselves were shot because they were just sitting there listlessly, and we felt practically certain that we would be shot next. But instead, they lined us up into a column.

我们被告知将被运往一艘名为卡帕科纳的邮轮。

We were told that we were going to be shipped to a liner by the name of Kaparkona.

就在我们列队站立时，我们看到大量轰炸机从头顶飞过。

And while we stood there, we saw quite a large number of bombers, airplanes moving overhead.

卡帕科纳号成为了轰炸机的目标。战争即将结束，但囚犯们的磨难还未终结。这段故事的后续将在稍后继续。

The Kaparcona was in the bombers' sights. The war was nearly over, but the prisoners' ordeal was not. That part of our story when we come back.

《冒险》是一档人们分享他们从未想过敢说出口的真实故事的播客，比如我们的《终究》那集，肯·科尔和汤姆·贝莱讲述了他们儿子精神病发作的那个夜晚。

Risk is the podcast where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share, like our episode After All, where Ken Cole and Tom Belay share about the night their son had a psychotic break.

那时我其实没意识到自己整条手臂都被刺伤了。我处于休克状态。

And at that point, I didn't actually know I had been stabbed all over my arm. I I was in shock.

在免费Odyssey应用或任何你获取播客的地方收听《冒险》节目的《终究》这集。

Find the risk episode after all on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

1945年5月，欧洲战事已近尾声。阿道夫·希特勒死亡，德军节节败退，第三帝国土崩瓦解。纳粹最后的防御据点之一位于波罗的海的吕贝克湾，德国船只包括被纳粹征用的豪华远洋邮轮卡帕科纳号都逃往此处寻求庇护。随着盟军逼近，党卫军撤离集中营并将数千名囚犯塞上卡帕科纳号。1945年5月3日中午左右，13岁的乔治·施瓦布被命令列队登船。

At the May 1945, the war in Europe was all but over. Adolf Hitler was dead, German forces were in retreat, and the Third Reich was crumbling. One of the last Nazi defensive positions was at Lubbock Bay in the Baltic Sea, where German ships fled seeking safe harbor, including the Kaparcona, a luxury ocean liner commandeered by the Nazis for the war effort. As the Allies closed in, the SS evacuated concentration camps and packed thousands of prisoners onto the Caparcona. Around noon on 05/03/1945, 13 year old George Schwab was ordered to line up to board the ship.

但卡帕科纳号无法靠岸，因为它是一艘大型班轮。

But the Caparcona could not come close to shore because it was a large line.

大船。

Big ship.

所以我们得通过另一艘船转运到卡帕科纳号。我排在队伍末尾，并不着急。

So we were going to be transported to the Caparcona by another ship. I was in the back of the line. I was in no hurry.

你是故意排到队伍最后的？

You purposely got to the back of the line?

队伍末尾。

Back of the line.

他当时在靠近德国海军基地的码头边，曼弗雷德·戈德堡和他母亲也在那里排队。

He was at a dock near this German naval base where Manfred Goldberg and his mother were lined up too.

就在我们站着的时候，目睹了轰炸机和战斗机群飞来。

And it is while we stood there that we witnessed bombers and fighter planes coming along.

你能看清飞机上的标识吗？

Could you see any markings on the plane?

不能，我们完全不知道它们属于哪个国家。

No. We had no idea what nationality they were.

你能看见飞机飞来

You could see the planes coming

能清楚地看到飞机。你可以看到炸弹落下。

see the planes clearly. You could see the bombs dropping.

你还记得当时的声音是怎样的吗？

Can you remember what it sounded like?

有一些相当猛烈的爆炸，而且数量不少。

There were some pretty powerful explosions, and there were quite a few.

卡普阿科纳号被击中。这艘漂浮的集中营载有超过4000名囚犯，变成了一个燃烧的坟墓。令人难以置信的是，攻击者竟是这些英国台风战斗机，作为盟军部队的一部分前来终结纳粹。英国人是来解放这些

The Cap Arcona was hit. With more than 4,000 prisoners on board, the floating concentration camp became a fiery tomb. In a hard to believe turn of events, the attackers were British typhoon fighters like these, part of the Allied forces moving in to finish off the Nazis. The British came to liberate these

囚犯的。是的。

prisoners did. Yeah.

结果却杀死了。是的。数千人。这简直是恐怖之上

And ended up killing Yeah. Thousands of them. It's like horror on top

叠加恐怖。确实如此。但其中一些人幸存下来记住了这一切。

of horror. It is. And yet some of them did survive to remember it.

比尔·尼文是一位英国历史学家和大屠杀学者。他告诉我们，对卡帕科纳号及一艘较小船只的误击是战争中最令人心碎的悲剧之一。

And you had Bill Niven is a British historian and scholar of the Holocaust. He told us the mistaken attack on the Caparcona and a smaller ship is one of the most wrenching tragedies of the war.

囚犯们知道战争即将结束。我想他们中许多人可能怀有生存的希望，这给了他们坚持的力量和勇气。

The prisoners knew that the war was nearing its end. I think a lot of them probably had hopes that they would survive, and that gave them the strength and the courage to hang on.

这是在吕贝克湾新施塔特镇的卡帕科纳博物馆，他描述了这次袭击。英国台风战斗机分波次攻击。卡帕科纳号大约在下午3点被击中。你知道有多少炸弹投在了

So this is the At the Kaparcona Museum in the town of Neustadt by Lubyck Bay, he described the attack. British typhoons struck in waves. The Caparcona was hit around 3PM. Do you have any idea how many bombs were dropped on

那艘船？有人说60人或超过60人。你可以想象炸弹击中船只时爆发的恐慌与恐怖，尤其是对那些集中营囚犯而言。我们位于船舱最底层，由于火焰他们无法上到甲板。

the ship? Some people say 60 or over 60. You can imagine the panic and the horror that broke out when the bombs hit the ship, especially for those concentration camp prisoners. We were in the very lower decks of the ship, and they were unable to get up to the top because of the flames.

这是英国皇家空军历史上最严重的友军误击事件吗？

Is this the worst case of friendly fire in the Royal Air Force's history?

极有可能。

Quite probably.

是的。塞巴斯蒂安·考克斯最近刚从英国皇家空军首席历史学家职位退休。他将此事件归咎于战争迷雾。为什么卡普阿科纳号会成为攻击目标？

Yeah. Sebastian Cox recently retired as chief historian for Britain's Royal Air Force, the RAF. He blames the incident on the fog of war. Why was the Kep Arcona targeted?

因为盟军相信某些纳粹分子会试图穿越波罗的海逃往挪威，实质上继续战争。

Because the Allies believed that there was gonna be an attempt to flee by certain Nazi elements across the Baltic to Norway and and essentially continue the war.

英国军方是否知道集中营幸存者在卡帕科纳号上？

Did the British military have any idea that concentration camp survivors were on the Caparcona?

如果你是指飞行员是否知情，绝对不知情。

If you mean did the pilots have any idea, absolutely not.

但英国军方其他成员确实知道。

But other members of the British military did know.

我们从档案中了解到，英国人在5月3日前曾两次获知囚犯被安置在该船上的情报。

What we learned from the records that the British were handed two opportunities very close to the May 3 in regards to the placement of prisoners on board the ship.

那些船上的集中营囚犯。确实如此。丹尼尔·朗以卡帕科纳号袭击事件为题完成了他的历史学博士论文。我们在伦敦英国国家档案馆见到他时，他向我们展示了这些脆弱的战时文件。

Concentration camp prisoners on those ships. Indeed. Daniel Long wrote his PhD history thesis on the attack on the Caparcona. We met him at the British National Archives in London, where he showed us these fragile war documents.

这是针对卡帕科纳号悲剧沉船事件进行的唯一官方调查。

This is the only official investigation that was carried out into the tragic sinking of the Caparcona.

轰炸发生后不久，一名英国战争罪行调查员采访了负责攻击卡帕科纳号及海湾内其他船只的中队情报官。

Shortly after the bombing, a British war crimes investigator interviewed the intelligence officer for the squadrons that attacked the Caparcona and other ships in the bay.

该情报官两次承认，他们在1945年5月2日收到消息，得知这些船只装载了集中营囚犯。

The intelligence officer admitted on two occasions that a message was received on the 05/02/1945 that the ships had been loaded with concentration camp prisoners.

这份情报是在袭击前一天收到的。

That intelligence came in the day before the attack.

这意味着有充足的时间警告飞机上的飞行员。

Which then leads to suggest that it was ample time to warn the pilots on the planes.

这些信息没有传达给英国皇家空军飞行员？

That information did not make it to the RAF pilots?

确实如此。

That that's correct.

报告未说明情报官为何未通知飞行员，但确实将错误归咎于英国皇家空军人员，并呼吁进一步调查。报告强烈建议进行后续调查。但这件事从未落实，对吗？

The report does not say why the intelligence officer failed to inform the pilots, but it did blame RAF personnel for the error and called for further inquiry. The report strongly urged that there be a follow-up investigation. That has never happened, has it?

据我所知没有。

Not to my knowledge.

为什么没有？

Why not?

试图进行详细调查在很多方面会显得有点无意义。你打算得出什么结论呢？

Attempting to, you know, conduct a detailed investigation would, in many respects, be a little pointless. What what are you going to conclude?

为了查明出了什么问题，我们犯了哪些错误

To find out what went wrong, what mistakes We were

知道发生了什么。英国皇家空军犯了个错误。一个人犯下了非常悲剧性的错误，我们也知道后果。

know what happened. The RAF made a mistake. An individual made a very tragic mistake, and we know the consequences.

当船只在海湾被轰炸时，约7000名囚犯丧生。在卡帕科纳号上的4000多人中，只有约400人幸存。比尔·尼文告诉我们，几位幸存者后来记录了他们在海上经历的炼狱。

About 7,000 prisoners perished when the ships were bombed in the bay. Of the more than 4,000 on the Caparcona, only about 400 survived. Bill Niven told us several survivors later wrote accounts of the hell they endured at sea.

成千上万的囚犯像鲱鱼般挤在一起。他们高举双臂哭喊着：放我出去，放我出去。读到这些实在令人痛心。火势突然变得越来越猛烈，这是因为囚犯们的身体在剧烈燃烧。

Thousands of prisoners were packed together like herrings. So they stretched their arms up, and they cried out, I want out. I want out. This is really quite terrible to have to read this. The fire suddenly got more and more intensive, and this was because the flesh of the prisoners was burning so strongly.

正是这导致了火势的加剧。读来令人心碎。

It made this intensity happen. It's distressing to read.

布鲁诺·纽雷特·威尔逊的父亲威利是名政治犯，炸弹击中船只时他正被困在船上。

Bruno Neureth Wilson's father, Willie, a political prisoner, was trapped on the ship when the bombs hit.

我父亲设法爬到船尾未着火的地方，因为不会游泳才得以幸存。

My father managed to go to the back of the ship where it was not burning, and there he survived because he couldn't swim.

他因为不会游泳而活了下来。

He survived because he couldn't swim.

他没有跳进水里是因为不会游泳。而那些跳水的囚犯都被党卫军枪杀了。

He couldn't swim because he did not jump into the water. And prisoners who jumped into the water were shot by the SS.

当英国人意识到他们的错误时，他们派出了救援人员，将威利·纽拉特等人从倾斜的卡帕科纳号甲板上救起并带到岸上。这就是你父亲上岸的那片海滩吗？这片海滩的前面。是的。布鲁诺告诉我们，在一个不可思议的命运转折中，他的母亲伊娃——一名海军文职人员——被调到了卢贝克湾的海军基地。

When the British realized their mistake, they dispatched rescuers who plucked Willie Neuerath and others from the listing deck of the Caparcona and took them to shore. This is the stretch of beach where your father came ashore? This front of the beach. Yes. Bruno told us in an improbable twist of fate, his mother Eva, a naval staff assistant, had been transferred to the naval base at Lubbock Bay.

当她看到轰炸时，她被吸引到了海滩。

When she saw the bombing, she was drawn to the beach.

她只有一个希望，就是知道我丈夫在哪里。他还活着吗？也许我的丈夫就在那艘船上。

She had only one hope, to know where is my husband. Is he still living? And maybe my husband is on the ship.

他们是怎么找到彼此的？

How did they find each other?

她从这个方向走来，看到一个男人朝她走来。她没有认出她最想见的那个人。他一定瘦弱不堪，被火烧得脏兮兮的，但他走到她面前，喊出了他给她起的昵称。穆佩尔。

She came from this direction, and she saw a man coming towards her. She didn't recognize the one person she wanted to see. He must have been thin and weak. And dirty from the burning, but he came over to her and called his nickname he had for her. Muppel.

穆佩尔是什么意思？穆佩尔的意思是，我喜欢你圆圆的脸。她通过这个词认出了他的声音，穆佩尔。

What does Muppel mean? Muppel means something like like, I love your round face. She recognized his voice by this one word, Muppel.

那艘船对许多人来说是一座坟墓，但它却让你的父母重新团聚。

That ship was a graveyard for so many people, but yet it brought your parents back together.

是的。我、我、我不知道生活中是否有隐藏的意义，但一个意义可能是，我现在还活着，可以讲述这个故事。

Yeah. I I I don't know if there are hidden meanings in life, but one meaning can be that I I am alive now and can tell about this story. As

至于乔治·施瓦布，他从这场恐怖中汲取了灵感。

for George Schwab, he pulled inspiration from the horror.

这是对帮助拉脱维亚加入北约的奖励。

This is a prize for having helped Latvia get into NATO.

这位拉脱维亚人移居纽约，获得政治学博士学位，并作为学者与和平调解人拥有辉煌的职业生涯。

The native of Latvia moved to New York, earned a PhD in political science, and had an illustrious career as an academic and peace broker.

这是我和侯赛因国王。比尔·克林顿。比尔·克林顿。

Here I'm with King Hussein. Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton.

施瓦布博士，我想您认识所有人。

Doctor. Schwab, I think you knew everyone.

某种程度上吧。

Somewhat.

曼弗雷德·戈德堡与母亲定居伦敦。母亲于1961年去世。戈德堡结婚后创业成家，2017年曾与剑桥公爵夫妇重返施图特霍夫集中营。他将讲述自身经历视为毕生使命。

Manfred Goldberg and his mother settled in London. She passed away in 1961. Goldberg married, started a business and a family. In 2017, he returned to the Stutthof Concentration Camp with the then duke and duchess of Cambridge. He has made it his life mission to share his story.

我认为这是对纳粹的某种报复。他们想灭绝我们，而我们不仅活了下来，如今更成为曾祖辈。

I consider that part of my revenge on the Nazis. They wanted to exterminate us, and here we are not only having survived. We are now great grandparents.

这就是你的复仇。

That's your revenge.

我对纳粹的报复。是的。

My revenge on the Nazis. Yes.

卡帕科纳号在吕贝克湾半沉四年后被拆解，但这个故事始终沉寂在波罗的海沿岸鲜为人知。如今每年5月3日，遇难者家属和幸存者都会乘船前往船只被炸地点纪念。今年五月，曼弗雷德·戈德堡重返吕贝克湾，纪念欧洲战争结束八十周年解放日。他站在当年目睹卡帕科纳号遇袭的位置，并前往犹太公墓诵念悼词。

The Caparcona lay half sunken in Lubbock Bay for four years before being dismantled, but the story has lain beneath the surface, little known beyond this Baltic Coast. It's now tradition on the May 3 for families of victims and survivors to sail to the site where the ship was bombed. They want the world to remember. This past May, Manfred Goldberg returned to Lubbock Bay to commemorate the eightieth anniversary of his liberation at the end of the war in Europe. He stood on the site where he witnessed the attack on the Cap Arcona and went to a Jewish cemetery to chant a memorial prayer.

在好莱坞，演员试图迎合行业审美与市场标准，像棋手般精心规划每个造型和职业选择并不罕见。但杰米·李·柯蒂斯绝非此类。她坦率随性，敢于直言不讳——即便事关自己。我们在洛杉矶采访了杰米·李·柯蒂斯。正如五月首播时所言，66岁的她正享受着新一轮获奖表演浪潮。

In Hollywood, it's not unusual for actors to try and fit the industry standard of beauty and marketability, plotting every outfit and career move with the prowess of a chess master. But Jamie Lee Curtis is not one of them. Candid and spontaneous, she fearlessly calls it as she sees it, even when it comes to herself. We met Jamie Lee Curtis in Los Angeles. And as we said when we first aired this story in May, at 66 years old, she is savoring a new wave of award winning performances.

我们询问了她长达数十年的职业生涯。她告诉我们这一切完全不在计划之中。

We asked her about her decades long career. She told us it was anything but planned.

我的人生转折就发生在几秒之间，而我从未预料到。我从没想过自己会成为一名演员。我的牙齿像混凝土一样灰暗，虽然可爱但算不上漂亮。

My life hinged on a couple seconds I never saw coming. I never thought I'd be an actor in my life. My teeth were the color of concrete. They were gray. I was cute but not pretty.

所以我完全没料到会这样。

And so I never saw that coming.

他们支付了她或许早该获得的报酬。杰米·李·柯蒂斯出生在好莱坞名门，父母是银幕偶像托尼·柯蒂斯和珍妮特·利——电影黄金时代最耀眼的两位明星。但杰米·李说她原本想当警察。大学放假回家时，朋友说服她去环球影城试镜。

They paid She probably should have. Jamie Lee Curtis was born into Hollywood royalty, the daughter of screen idols Tony Curtis and Janet Leigh, two of the biggest stars during the golden age of cinema. But Jamie Lee says she wanted to be a cop. She was home from college when a friend convinced her to audition for Universal Studios.

我演完那场戏后，她说表现得很好之类的话。我就回答：好的，谢谢。然后我说：听着...

I did the scene, and she said that was very good or whatever. And I was like, okay. Great. Thanks. I said, listen.

如果这事能成，我得马上知道，因为两天后我就要回大学了。

If this is gonna work out, I need to know because I'm going back to college in, like, two days.

非常务实。

Very practical.

她就笑了什么的。结果第二天他们打电话来，给了我一份环球影城的七年合约，我就退学了。

So, like, she laughed or whatever. And they called me the next day, and they gave me a seven year contract at Universal, and I quit college.

几乎立刻，她就接拍了1978年的恐怖片《月光光心慌慌》。

Almost immediately, she booked the 1978 horror film Halloween.

今晚我在这儿，绝不会让你出事。

Well, I'm here tonight. I'm not about to let anything happen to you.

柯蒂斯被选中饰演书呆子保姆劳里·斯特罗德，一个被无情杀手恐吓的角色。这是她的第一部电影。当时她19岁，担纲主演。人们是否在议论，哦，她能得到这个角色是因为她的父母是谁，因为她的家世？

Curtis was cast as the bookish babysitter, Laurie Strode, terrorized by an unrelenting killer. It was her first movie. She was 19 years old playing the lead. Were people saying, oh, she got the job because of who her parents are because of the pedigree?

我知道。我敢保证，我母亲曾出演《惊魂记》这一事实是个决定性因素，或许能给他们带来些额外宣传。但这让我进入最终候选了吗？没有。是我的试镜表现让我进入最后两强。

I know. I guarantee you the fact that my mother was in Psycho was a determining factor that maybe that will get them a little extra publicity. Now did it get me to that final two? No. My auditions got me to the final two.

这是部预算30万美元的恐怖片。当时没多少人想接这种工作。

This was a $300,000 horror movie. This was not a job that a lot of people wanted.

《月光光心慌慌》最终票房超过7000万美元，成为邪典经典，但它并未真正开启杰米·李·柯蒂斯的演艺事业。

Halloween ended up grossing more than $70,000,000 and became a cult classic, But it didn't exactly launch Jamie Lee Curtis's career.

《月光光心慌慌》之后，我的重大突破是在《爱之船》里与珍妮特·利合作。美丽的珍妮特·利扮演我的母亲。接着我又在《查理的天使》某集中饰演谢丽尔·拉德的闺蜜，职业高尔夫球手。这就是我在《月光光》之后获得的两份工作。

My big break after Halloween was I was on Love Boat with Janet Leigh. Beautiful Janet Leigh playing my mother. And then I was in a Charlie's Angels episode where I am Cheryl Ladd's best friend, pro golfer. So those are the two jobs I get post Halloween.

当时你是否觉得，人们不是在雇用我，他们只是想要我母亲在场或是这个姓氏？

Were you thinking at this point, like, people aren't hiring me. They just want my mom around or the name?

知道吗？确实这么想过。

You know what? Sure.

但这没让你困扰吗？

But didn't that bother you?

没有。因为...因为我在做自己的事。

No. Because because I was doing my thing.

柯蒂斯的事业是通过一系列恐怖片转型为新世代的尖叫女王。我读到说你其实不喜欢恐怖片。

Curtis's thing was transforming into a scream queen for a new generation with a string of horror movies. I read that you didn't even like scary movies.

我不喜欢恐怖片。

I don't like scary movies.

还是不喜欢？

Still?

依然不喜欢。拜托，太可怕了。

Still. Oh, please. Awful.

为什么？

Why?

太可怕了。俏皮点的回答是因为生活本身就很恐怖。

Awful. The smart aleck answer is because life is scary.

这话出自以无畏著称的女演员之口令人惊讶。在与阿诺德·施瓦辛格在《真实的谎言》中床戏对决之前，柯蒂斯就在约翰·兰迪斯执导的首部喜剧片《颠倒乾坤》中与艾迪·墨菲和丹·艾克罗伊德同台飙戏毫不逊色。她表示真正开启她演艺生涯的是奥菲莉亚这个角色——一位聪慧善良的街头女郎。

It's a surprising thing to hear from an actress who's known for being fearless. Before that spin around the bedpost opposite Arnold Schwarzenegger in True Lies, Curtis held her own next to Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd in her first comedy feature Trading Places directed by John Landis. She says her role as Ophelia, a wise, kind hearted streetwalker, is what really launched her career.

你知道那些人

You know those people

那个角色，我是说，她带着粗粝感，还有口香糖那些细节。这些有多少是你自己发挥的？

That part, I mean, she's gritty and the gum and the whole thing. How much of that did you bring?

约翰每天都会往我嘴里塞口香糖。真的，我就站在那里，他走过来塞给我。我就说好吧。这是个很棒的角色。但关键在于——这点至关重要——这促成了和解。

John stuck gum in my mouth every day. Literally, I would stand there, and he'd walk up. I go, okay. I mean, it's, you know, it's just a great part. But here's the other thing, and this is crucial, and this will make the peace.

如果我没演《颠倒乾坤》，约翰·克里斯就不会为我写《一条叫旺达的鱼》。我会永远珍视它。如果我没演《一条叫旺达的鱼》，詹姆斯·卡梅隆就不会在《真实的谎言》里为我写那个角色。正是这些电影成就了我的演艺生涯。

If I'm not in Trading Places, John Cleese does not write A Fish Cold Wanda for me. I'll treasure it. If I'm not in A Fish Cold Wanda, Jim Cameron does not write the part in True Lies for me. And that grouping of films gave me my career, for sure.

如果这听起来像童话故事，那并非如此。到了八十年代中期，杰米·李·柯蒂斯已是知名演员，当时她与约翰·特拉沃尔塔合拍了一部名为《完美》的电影。无论从哪个角度看，她确实完美无缺。我

If it all sounds like a fairy tale, it wasn't. By the mid eighties, Jamie Lee Curtis was a well established actor when she made a movie with John Travolta called Perfect. By all accounts and from every angle, she was. I

作为演员我非常认真对待，当然，我穿紧身衣确实很好看。相信我，我看过太多自己穿那件紧身衣的照片，连我自己都会感叹：真的吗？

took it very seriously as an actor, and, of course, I look really good in a leotard. And believe me, I've seen enough pictures of me in that leotard where even I go like, really?

得了吧。但她表示，当时有位电影摄影师批评了她的外貌。

Come on. But she says a cinematographer working on the film criticized the way she looked.

那人直接说，'我今天不拍她，她眼袋太重了'。那时我才25岁，听到这种话实在太难堪了。

And was like, yeah. I'm not shooting her today. Her eyes are baggy. And I was 25. So for him to say that was very embarrassing.

所以电影刚杀青，我就去做了整形手术。

So, as soon as the movie finished, I ended up having some plastic surgery.

结果如何？

And how did that go?

很糟糕。25、6岁根本不该做这种事。我立刻就后悔了，这些年来也一直为此懊悔。

Not well. That's just not what you want to do when you're 25 or 26. And I regretted it immediately and have kind of sort of regretted it since.

直到现在？

Even now?

现在更甚，因为我已成为公开倡导者，告诉女性'你们本来就很美，现在的样子就是完美的'。所以...是啊，那件事我真不该做。

Way so now because I've become a really public advocate to say to women, You're gorgeous, and you're perfect the way you are. So oh, yeah. I I I it was not a good thing for me to do.

就是从那时开始服用...你公开提过这事。开始服用止痛药并且

That's when you started taking. You've been public about this. Started taking pain killers and

嗯，是医生开的处方药。我逐渐沉迷于阿片类药物带来的温水浴般舒适感，你知道的，会小酌几杯但从不放纵，也从不在公开场合失态。我非常低调隐秘，但这确实形成了依赖。

Well, they give them to you. I became very enamored with the warm bath of an opiate, you know, drank a little bit, never to excess, never any big public demonstrations. I was very quiet, very private about it, but it it became a dependency for sure.

柯蒂斯说她已保持清醒26年。当你公开自己戒酒经历时，是否担心会影响演艺事业？

Curtis says she's been sober for twenty six years. Did you worry when you shared your story of how you got sober that it would impact your career?

比起承认自己有成瘾问题，我更担心推销促排便酸奶会毁掉职业生涯。这是个自嘲的玩笑，但很真实——现在就来参加'Activia挑战赛'吧，无效退款。

I think I worried more that selling yogurt that makes you was gonna impact my career than for me to acknowledge that I had an addiction. I make the joke. It's a funny joke, but it's true. Take the Activia Challenge now. It works or it's free.

啊，那个被《周六夜现场》疯狂恶搞的酸奶广告。现在说点好消息。

Ah, that yogurt commercial, famously parodied by Saturday Night Live. Now the good news.

我刚发现

I just discovered

柯蒂斯，这位好莱坞巨星突然开始卖连裤袜和租车服务。

Curtis, one of the biggest stars in Hollywood, suddenly began selling pantyhose and hawking rental cars.

赫兹租车胜出了。

Hertz came out on top.

《真实的谎言》票房4亿美元，你本可以随心所欲，却接了那些代言工作。为什么？

True Lies had made $400,000,000. You could have done anything you wanted to do, but you were taking those spokesperson jobs. Why?

最主要原因是能在家陪伴孩子。我是个不完美的职场妈妈——毕竟所有职场妈妈都不完美。

For the most part, because they allowed me to stay home with my kids. So I am I am an imperfect, you know, working mom because no working moms are perfect.

生活就像用胶带勉强粘合起来的。

It's all Scotch taped together.

我正在看着一个。你正在跟一个说话。我们让它看起来不错。我们以为我们做到了。但事实是我们感觉很糟糕。

I'm looking at one. You're speaking to one. We make it look good. We think we've done it. But the truth is we feel badly.

但我知道我花了多少时间远离他们，去追求我自己的创造力。

But I know how much time away from them I spent in pursuit of my own creativity.

柯蒂斯与克里斯托弗·盖斯特有两个孩子，后者是演员兼导演，以《摇滚万万岁》最为人熟知。

Curtis has two children with Christopher Guest, the actor and director best known for This Is Spinal Tap.

它以其延音效果闻名。我是说，你可以就这么一直按着。

It's famous for its sustain. I mean, you can just hold it.

嗯，我是说，所以你不需要

Well, I mean, so you don't have

并通过一系列伪纪录片瞄准了狗展甚至电影制作。他们已经结婚四十多年了。

And taking aim at dog shows and even filmmaking in a series of mockumentaries. They've been married for more than forty years.

我母亲结过四次婚。我父亲结过五次婚。加起来九次。我的继父结过三次婚。所以我来自一个直系亲属共有12段婚姻的家庭。

My mother was married four times. My father was married five times. That's nine. My stepfather was married three. So I come from an immediate family of 12 marriages.

所以我开玩笑说，我还和我的第一任丈夫在一起，你知道，对我来说重要的是我一直和我的丈夫在一起，他是我的丈夫。

So my joke, I'm still married to my first husband, you know, it was important to me that I stay married to my husband, that he's my husband.

你有没有拒绝过某个角色，后来却希望自己当时接下了？

Do you ever pass a role that you wish you had taken?

没有。我接了他们

No. I've taken their

孩子们长大后，柯蒂斯便从接送孩子的任务中解脱出来，毫无歉意地投身于自己的事业。

kids were grown, Curtis traded in carpool duty for unapologetically driving her own career.

我们往这边走。

We're going this way.

她经营着自己的制作公司，正在筹备一部由妮可·基德曼主演的电视剧，以及一部关于2018年灾难性天堂野火的电影。她还运营着自己的慈善机构。柯蒂斯为洛杉矶儿童医院筹集了超过一百万美元，并向近期野火灾民捐赠了另一百万美元，这些野火摧毁了阿尔塔迪纳和太平洋帕利塞德的大部分地区，包括她拍摄千禧年热门影片《辣妈辣妹》及其续集《更糟的星期五》（现已上映）的这栋房子。在首部《月光光心慌慌》上映四十年后，她终于让这个系列画上了句号。但正是她在六十多岁时出演的一系列真实脆弱角色，让她迎来了连自己都未曾预料的复出。

She runs her own production company, which has a TV series in the works starring Nicole Kidman and a feature film about the catastrophic Paradise Wildfires in 2018. She's also running her own charity. Curtis has raised over a million dollars for Children's Hospital Los Angeles and donated another million to victims of the recent wildfires, which destroyed much of Altadena and the Pacific Palisades, including this home where she filmed the millennial hit, Freaky Friday, and its sequel, Creakier Friday, out now. And four decades after the first Halloween, she finally put that franchise to rest. But it is a string of raw vulnerable characters that came to Curtis in her sixties that led to a comeback even she never imagined.

你知道，我是说，

You know, I mean,

他有点可爱。

he's cute ish.

在《最后的舞女》中饰演年迈的女服务员。

Playing the aging waitress in the last showgirl.

我也可以给你找份工作。

I could also get you a job.

或是在Hulu剧集《熊》中，作为易燃易爆的女家长唐娜·布拉扎托，吸走了厨房里的所有氧气。唐娜，我脑海中浮现她用指甲涂黄油、脸颊沾着睫毛的画面。

Or sucking the oxygen out of the kitchen as the combustible matriarch, Donna Brazato, in Hulu's TV series, the bear. Donna, the images in my mind of her buttering the bread with the nails and the eyelash on the cheek.

那根睫毛。就那一根睫毛，我觉得为我赢得了艾美奖。我发誓。去吧。我很好。

The eyelash. That single eyelash, I think, won me an Emmy. I swear to God. Go. I'm good.

去。去坐着。我一生都在等待唐娜这个角色。耐心地、安静地烹饪着。我自己的创造性精神生活，我自己的，你知道的，我自己的酗酒问题。

Go. Go sit. I've waited my whole life for Donna. Patiently, quietly cooking. My own creative mental life, my own, you know, my own alcoholism.

它写得如此优美，以至于你无需做任何改动。

It's just so beautifully written that you don't have to do anything.

但2022年那部神秘莫测、略带烧脑的《瞬息全宇宙》确实将杰米·李·柯蒂斯推出了她的舒适区。你当时拿到角色时理解它吗？

But it was twenty twenty two's mystical, somewhat mind bending everything everywhere all at once that pushed Jamie Lee Curtis out of her comfort zone. Did you understand that role when you got it?

一秒钟都没懂。我理解那个剧本吗？没有。除了一叠收据外，我只能追溯那些起伏跌宕。

Not one second of it. Did I understand that script? No. With nothing but a stack of receipts, I can trace the ups and downs.

柯蒂斯表示她确实理解德尔德·布比尔德——那个来自地狱的冷酷官僚。

Curtis says she did understand Deirdre Boubirdeh, the hardboiled bureaucrat from hell.

这看起来可不妙。我们都认识德尔德。她是个不被爱的女人，用工作权力控制他人，因为她生活中缺乏爱。

It does not look good. We all know Deirdre. She's a woman who's not loved. She's a woman who uses her power in her job to control people because she has no love in her life.

柯蒂斯完全变了样，但她的表演未被忽视。杰米·李·柯蒂斯。不过在那一刻之前，当念出你名字时...是的，你会说‘我想’

Curtis was unrecognizable, but her performance did not go unnoticed. Jamie Lee Bennett. Before the moment, though, first, when they call your name Yes. You say, I think

站起来。完全懵了。因为那根本不在预料之中。

up. Totally. Because that wasn't supposed to happen.

你母亲从未得过奥斯卡。父亲也没拿过奥斯卡。

Your mom never won an Oscar. Dad never won Oscar.

他们都曾获得提名。

They were both nominated.

这让你觉得能与作为巨星的父母平起平坐了吗？

Does this make you feel like you're on even footing with your parents who were these gigantic stars?

我思考着超越父母这件事，在情感层面我已经做到了。我在清醒自律方面超越了父母。母亲当年被行业对她的要求和期待所束缚，被允许展现的样子所限制。她若看到《最后的歌舞女郎》会憎恶的，因为我展示了真实的自己。所以我不想用‘超越’这个词，但我确实拥有了他们不曾有的自由。

I think about surpassing my parents, which I have emotionally. I've surpassed my parents with sobriety. My mother was restricted by what the industry wanted from her and expected from her and would allow from her. My mother would have hated The Last Showgirl because I showed what I really looked like. And so I have I don't wanna say surpassed them, but I I have freedom.

奥斯卡获奖次日清晨，摄影师请柯蒂斯复刻五十年前费·唐纳薇与奖杯的经典照片。她答应了这个请求，但提了一个条件。

The morning after her Oscar win, a photographer asked Curtis to recreate a photo of actress Faye Dunaway and her statue from nearly fifty years ago. She agreed with one condition.

我对他说：可以，但不会正经拍。我们得拍得有趣些。

And I said to him, yeah. But I won't do it seriously. We have to make it funny.

杰米·李·柯蒂斯不仅接纳了不完美，更将其升华为艺术。我是莎伦·阿方索，下周同一时间请继续收看《60分钟》新一期节目。

Jamie Lee Curtis hasn't just embraced imperfection. She's made it in art. I'm Sharon Alfonso. We'll be back next week with another edition of sixty minutes.

派拉蒙+平台全新原创纪录片系列。

A new original docuseries on Paramount plus.

一旦绑架了人质，要么灭口

Once you've taken someone, you either kill them

要么等着被捕。十桩出乎所有人预料的案件。我们甚至读过你的日记。

or you get caught. 10 cases no one saw coming. We ever read your diary.

包括最后一页记录——她的喉咙被割开了吗？

Including the last entry, was her throat cut?

没错。天啊。

Yeah. Oh my god.

从多角度剖析不可想象的罪案。

Unthinkable crimes explored from every angle.

参与此案的每个人都在某种程度上受到了心理创伤。

Every person that worked on this case was traumatized at some level.

《谋杀360》现已在Paramount+平台上线。

Murder three sixty now streaming on Paramount plus.

现已上线。当一切危在旦夕时

Now streaming. When everything's on

真正的英雄会挺身而出。最火爆的电视剧《烈火家园》。

the line, real heroes rise to the occasion. TV's hottest show is fire country.

我们是消防员，我们一定会找到

We're firefighters. We're gonna find

办法把你救出来

a way to get you out of

我们共同承受了打击。

We took the hits together.

我们是同一战线的。

We're on the same team.

无论发生什么，我都会在这里陪着你。

I'm right here with you no matter what.

我绝不会让你在深水区孤立无援。

I would never leave you hanging in the deep end.

这个地方是一种方式

This place is a way

为你提供新的家人。

of giving you new family.

《烈火家园》。全集现已在Paramount+平台上线。

Fire Country. All episodes now streaming on Paramount plus.