在科尔斯和伍尔沃斯“虚假”折扣案内部

我是丹尼尔·詹姆斯，您正在收听《清晨七点》。

I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7AM.

早在2024年，澳大利亚竞争与消费者委员会宣布将起诉科尔斯和伍尔沃斯，指控它们对500多种日常商品存在虚假折扣行为。

Back in 2024, the a triple c announced it would take Coles and Woolworths to court over what it says with fake discounts on more than 500 everyday products.

这一行动源于市民提供的线索，您一直记录着巧克力、意大利面等日常商品价格的异常变动。

It followed tip offs from citizens lose, you've been documenting curious price changes on everyday products like chocolates and pasta.

如今，此案已进入联邦法院，监管机构指控科尔斯通过‘先涨后降’的促销手段误导消费者，即在打折前先提高价格。

Now that case is in federal court with the watchdog arguing Coles misled customers with its down down promotions, increasing prices just before discounting them again.

科尔斯否认有任何不当行为，称价格波动是由于成本上升所致。

Coles denies it did anything wrong, putting the price jumps down to rising costs.

针对伍尔沃斯类似价格下调促销的另一桩诉讼，预计将在稍后展开。

A separate case against Woolworths over its price dropped promotions is expected to follow later.

今天，我们将为您带来2024年的一期节目，鲁比·琼斯对话经济学家兼记者彼得·马丁，探讨澳大利亚两大超市面临的清算时刻。

Today, we're bringing you an episode from 2024 where Ruby Jones speaks with economist and journalist Peter Martin about the reckoning facing Australia's two biggest supermarkets.

今天是2月22日，星期日。

It's Sunday, February 22.

本集最初发布于2024年10月。

This episode was first published in October 2024.

彼得，我们先谈谈这个法律案件是如何建立起来的。

Peter, let's begin by talking about how this legal case was built.

ACCC的调查是从哪里开始的？

Where did the ACCC's investigations begin?

最初，他们接到了一些电话。

Initially, it got phone calls.

现在他们接到的电话很多，而且在决定调查哪些事项上有很大的自由裁量权。

Now it gets a lot of phone calls, and it has a lot of discretion about what to investigate.

事实上，他们收到的大多数事情都从未调查过。

In fact, most of the things it gets at never investigates.

但这一次，来电数量太多，他们决定深入调查。

In this instance, there were so many that it looked further.

当他们进一步调查时，发现了社交媒体上的线索。

And when it looked further, it discovered social media.

有数百条帖子，来自我不确定该称他们为公民数据分析师还是公民数据记者的人。

Hundreds of posts from I don't know if you call them citizen data analysts or citizen data journalists.

Coles和Woolworths的定价非常有趣，我有一个特别棒的例子。

Coles and Woolworths pricing is fascinating, and I've got a really great example.

其中一条来自一个叫‘价格检查哥’的人。

One was from a guy called price check guy.

TikTok上有一条关于Cadbury卡慕乐考拉的帖子，观看量达到了37.3万次。

Now one post on TikTok about Cadbury Caramello Koalas has been viewed 373,000 times.

好的。

Okay.

我对这个产品其实有点不满，我来告诉你为什么。

I'm actually a little bit upset by this product, and I'll tell you why.

这里有一个

Here's a

一款产品一直标价1美元，折扣后为80美分，1美元折扣后为80美分。

product that was consistently $1 discounted to 80¢, $1 discounted to 80¢.

而在一天之内，价格就涨到了2美元。

And in one day, it just jumped up to $2.

所以现在它从2美元打折到1美元，而Coles却称之为半价。

So now it's $2 discounted to $1, and Coles is calling that a half price.

这就是三C看到的情况。

That's what the a triple c saw.

但随后，它凭借其应有的能力，从相关方获取了数据，即Coles和Moorwitz。

But then it was able to, as it has the power to do, seek data from the parties, in this case Coles and Moorwitz.

通常情况下，只有在准备法律行动时，它才能合法地这样做。

Now it can only do that legally normally if it's preparing a legal action.

因此，他们知道即将有事发生，因为ACCC已经在其电脑上审查数据一段时间了。

So they knew something was coming because the ACCC has been going through the data on their computers for some time.

好的。

Okay.

所以ACCC一直在梳理这些数据。

So the ACCC has been trawling the data.

那么，它发现了这些促销活动究竟发生了多少次？

So what has it said that it's uncovered about just how many times these kinds of promotions were happening?

它只呈现了大约500个案例。

It's only presented 500 odd cases.

它本可以呈现更多，但它表示只想关注那些在促销前价格至少稳定了六个月的案例。

It could have presented more, but it said that it's wanted to only look at cases where prices had been steady for at least six months before the action.

在这些促销行为中，价格只是短暂上涨了几周，然后才折扣到一个不低于此前数月水平的价格。

What happened in the action was an increase of a few weeks and then prices being discounted to a price that was no lower than the price had been for months before.

这些产品都是我们日常使用的。

And the products are the kind we all use.

比如Arnott's的Tim Tams、Kellogg's的麦片、Stay Free卫生巾，这些都是Woolworths的；Coles的Energizer电池、Libra卫生棉条、Nescafe速溶咖啡。

Arnott's Tim Tams, Kellogg's cereal, Stay Free Pads, those are some of the ones for Woolworths, Energizer batteries for Coles, Libra, tampons, Nescafe instant coffee.

如果ACCC能证明消费者确实相信了他们的说法，这将是ACCC案件的关键部分。

If the ACCC can establish that people took them at their word, that's a key part of the ACCC case.

它表示，必须证明消费者相信Coles和Woolworths通过提供更低价格来照顾他们。

It says, and it needs to establish this, that people were led to believe that Coles and Woolworths were looking after them by delivering lower prices.

换句话说，人们并不认为这是一种骗局。

In other words, people didn't think it was a trick.

它有充分的理由主张这种行为具有误导性和欺骗性。

It has a strong case to argue that it's misleading and and deceptive.

随着这场诉讼的启动，您如何描述公众对两大超市连锁店的看法？

As this court case is launched, how would you describe the way the public feels about the big two supermarket chains?

我认为公众讨厌这两大超市连锁店，但情况并非一直如此。

I think the public hates the big two supermarket chains, but it wasn't always like this.

从公众形象来看，这真是令人震惊的下滑。

It's an appalling comedown in terms of public image.

疫情期间，科尔斯和伍尔沃斯联手合作。

COVID, Coles and Woolworths got together.

它们确保我们买到了厕纸和所有我们需要的东西。

They ensured we got toilet paper, all of the things we needed.

就在一年前的九月，根据罗伊·摩根的数据，伍尔沃斯还是澳大利亚最受信任的品牌。

Woolworths, were, a mere year ago in September, the most trusted brand in Australia according to Roy Morgan.

如今，同一家公司——伍尔沃斯，已成为澳大利亚第五大最受不信任的品牌。

Now, that same company, Woolworths, is Australia's fifth least trusted brand.

我认为他们可能一直都在能行骗的地方耍手段。

I think they probably always behaved badly where they could.

这只是我的猜测。

That's a guess.

你别太当真。

Don't hold me to that.

我们等着看法庭上会披露什么吧。

We'll see what comes out in court.

但在2022年价格飙升时，根据澳大利亚统计局的数据，两年半内价格飙升了16%。

But when prices shot up in 2022, we saw, according to the ABS in two and a half years, a 16% jump in prices.

以前，价格上涨得非常缓慢。

Previously, that increased only slowly.

很多涨价只是转嫁成本，但澳大利亚竞争与消费者委员会的报告指出，在高通胀期间，伍尔沃斯扩大了其利润率。

You know, lot of that was just passing on costs, but the ACCC report says Woolworths widened its margins in that time of high inflation.

我们开始留意了。

We started paying attention.

每次去购物时，我们都感受到这种痛苦。

We saw the pain every time we went shopping.

我们对所看到的情况感到震惊。

We were horrified at what we saw.

激烈的竞争。

Robust competition.

我的意思是，前ACCC主席罗德·西姆斯说，我们拥有全球最集中的超市市场之一。

I mean, Rod Sims, the former head of the ACCC says that we have one of the most concentrated supermarkets in the world.

他在撒谎吗？

Is he lying?

这并不属实。

It's not true.

随后，我们看到了今年早些时候Woolworths首席执行官在《四角》节目采访中的退出。

And Then we saw the walkout from a Four Corners interview from the chief executive of Woolworths earlier this year.

顺便说一下，他的话已经退休了。

His words are retired, by the way.

我不认为你会质疑他的诚信以及他对竞争法的理解。

I I don't think you would impugn his integrity and his understanding of competition law.

我只是说

I'm just saying

世界已经变得多得多

the world has got much

更具竞争力。

more competitive.

他十八个月前就退休了。

He retired eighteen months ago.

他现在不太好了。

He's not Okay.

让我们

Let's

我们能把这个去掉吗？

we'll can we take that out?

这样可以吗？

Is that okay?

由于这一情况，我们看到同一位首席执行官因拒绝向参议院调查给出明确答复而面临监禁威胁。

We saw the the same chief executive as a result of that being threatened with imprisonment, when he refused to give a clear answer to a a senate inquiry.

多次提问。

Question many times.

你还没有回答问题，班杜奇先生。

You have not answered the question, mister Banducci.

老实说，我们关注的是。

Honestly we focus on.

我对你的公关话术或胡说八道不感兴趣。

I'm I'm not interested in your spin or your bullshit.

这是一次参议院调查。

This is a senate inquiry.

回答问题。

Answer the question.

上一个财年，您的股本回报率是26%吗？这超过了两倍半以上。

Was your return on equity 26% in the last financial year, which is more than two and a half times

这可以说是一连串的形象失误，不过我认为，公众心中没有哪一次比这次更严重。

It's been really one, I suppose, image blunder after another, although none of them are as as serious, I think, in the mind of the public as this.

广告插播后，科尔斯和伍尔沃斯会反击吗？

Coming up after the break, will Coles and Woolworths fight back?

彼得，科尔斯和伍尔沃斯因涉嫌用这些虚假折扣误导消费者，被澳大利亚竞争与消费者委员会起诉。

Peter, Coles and Woolworths are being sued by the ACCC over allegedly misleading customers with these illusory discounts on everyday items.

超市方面对如何回应有何说法？

What have the supermarket said about how they plan to respond?

科尔斯表示他们会回应，仅此而已。

Coles says it will respond, and that's all.

在澳大利亚竞争与消费者委员会发布声明后，科尔斯几乎立即向证券交易所发布了声明，这表明他们早有预感。

It issued a statement to the stock exchange almost immediately after the ACCC statement, which tends to indicate it thought it was coming.

而伍尔沃斯只是表示将继续与委员会保持沟通，这也表明他们长期以来一直与委员会有所接触，勉强允许委员会进入其内部系统。

And Woolworths merely said it would continue to engage with the Commission, which also indicates that it's been engaging about this, reluctantly letting the Commission in inside its computers for some time.

他们有机会赢吗？

Do they have any chance of beating it?

这个案子很难赢。

It's an awful case to win.

事实上，赢了可能更糟。

In fact, winning might be even worse.

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

你不需要让别人介入你的定价策略。

You wouldn't need to let people inside your pricing practices.

所有事情都会在法庭上公之于众。

Everything would come out in court.

我们之前在澳洲航空身上就见过这种情况。

We saw this with Qantas.

澳航出售了那些已经取消的幽灵航班机票，在向联邦法院提交的材料中，它援引了《澳大利亚消费者法》的同一条款，声称人们购买机票时并不是为了乘坐航班。

Qantas sold those ghost flights flights that had already cancelled and when it made submission to the Federal Court using the same provision of the Australian Consumer Law, it said people did not buy tickets when they bought them for a flight.

他们购买的是一系列权利的组合，这些权利使他们能够享受各种服务。

They bought a bundle of rights that enabled them to various things.

这使得澳航成了笑柄。

Now this made Qantas a laughing stock.

科尔斯希望这样吗？

Does Coles want that?

澳航的做法是庭外和解，总共支付了1.2亿美元。

What Qantas did was to settle out of court for a total of a $120,000,000.

我认为它认为这笔钱花得还算值。

And I think it regarded that as fairly good value for money.

有趣的是，伍尔沃斯并未表示要上法庭抗辩。

And it's interesting that Woolworths has not said it will fight it in court.

好的。

Okay.

那么，两家公司背后很可能正在就如何处理此事进行大量讨论。

There's probably a lot of conversations happening behind the scenes then about how both companies should handle this.

我也是这么认为的。

I would say so.

跟我说说可能的处罚吧。

Tell me about the possible penalties.

工党在当选后不久就提高了处罚力度。

Labor increased the penalties shortly after it was elected.

对于一次误导和欺骗行为，处罚金额为1000万美元。

The penalty was $10,000,000 for an instance of misleading and deceptive conduct.

这一金额已提高到5000万美元。

That's increased to 50,000,000.

我认为没有人会认为他们会把500个案例加在一起，再乘以1000万或5000万美元，那将是一笔惊人的金额。

I don't think anyone thinks that they'll add 500 cases together and multiply them by either 10 or $50,000,000 That would be an extraordinary amount of money.

法律中实际上有一项规定，如果计算起来太复杂，可以判罚营业额的30%，那将是一笔巨大的数目。

There is a provision in the law actually which says that if it's too complicated to calculate, there can be an award of 30% of a measure of turnover, which would be enormous.

这很可能不会发生。

That's probably not going to happen.

委员会明确表示，希望这些公司——科尔斯和伍尔沃斯——向为需要帮助的人提供食物的慈善机构捐款。

The Commission has certainly said it wants those firms, Coles and Woolworths, to donate money to charities that provide food to people in need.

我认为他们想要的是一个巨额数字。

I think what it wants is a big number.

在采访中，澳大利亚竞争与消费者委员会主席吉娜·卡斯·戈德利布表示，她希望此案能树立一个榜样。

In interviews, Gina Cass Godlib, the chair of the ACCC, has said she wants this to set an example.

他们什么都不想要。

They don't want nothing.

事实上，他们可能不会对真正承诺改正行为感到满意。

In fact, probably will not be satisfied with a genuine promise to fix the behaviour.

他们希望此案能像澳航案一样树立榜样。

They want this to set an example in the same way as the Qantas case did.

所以，澳大利亚竞争与消费者委员会正在寻求巨额罚款。

So the ACCC, they're seeking significant penalties.

但是，彼得，政府除此之外还做了什么？

But, Peter, what else is the government doing beyond that?

就在本周二，财长进一步加大了对超市的压力。

Well, just this week on Tuesday, the Treasurer ramped up the pressure on supermarkets further.

他宣布向ACCC追加3000万美元，用于持续调查它们的定价行为。

He announced an extra $30,000,000 to the a triple c to investigate their pricing practices on an ongoing basis.

因此，我们今天宣布的所有措施，都是为了增加资源，加强调查与执法，并开辟更多竞争场所。

So what we're announcing today is all about more resources for more investigation and more enforcement and more sites for competition.

而且他

And he

而这正是这一公告的

And that's what this announcement

谈到与各州政府协商，并通过它们与地方政府一起解决规划瓶颈问题。

talked about negotiating with state governments and and through them local councils to sort of unpick planning logjams.

除了这一整治行动外，我还将与各州和领地密切合作，尽快推进规划和分区法规的改革，以便通过开放更多新店选址来增强超市行业的竞争。

In addition to this crackdown, I'll also work closely with states and territories, to progress, reform, of planning and zoning regulations as fast as possible so that we can boost competition in the supermarket sector by opening up more sites for new stores.

根据ACCC调查的草案报告，除了惯性之外，阻止人们前往竞争性超市的最主要原因是根本不存在这样的超市。

The biggest thing according to the draft report of the ACCC inquiry that stops people going to a competitive supermarket apart from inertia is that there isn't one.

这是因为法规使得开设新的超市变得困难。

And that's because regulations make it hard to start a new one.

在某些情况下，委员会提到了两个案例，疑似存在土地囤积行为。

And in some instances, and the commission named two, a suspicion of land banking.

也就是说，Coles和Woolworths购买了某个地点。

That is to say that, Coles and Mulworths, buy a spot.

他们可能会说，有一天会在那里开一家超市。

They might say that one day they're gonna have a supermarket on it.

但与此同时的关键影响是，其他人无法在那里开店。

But the key effect in the meantime is that no one else can.

还有一项更大的措施，绿党和联盟党恰好都支持，那就是ACCC向联邦法院申请，获得强制超市剥离资产的权利——可能要求出售10%的门店，或在某些州出售门店，甚至将整个业务部门分拆出去。

And there's even something bigger that certainly the Greens and the Coalition, as it happens, wants, and that's that ACCC, applying to the Federal Court, gets the right to force supermarkets to divest, Maybe sell 10% of their stores, maybe sell stores in some states, maybe find an entire arm of the business and hive it off.

联盟党支持这一措施。

The coalition supports that.

工党不同意。

Labor does not.

这在美国发生过，在英国也发生过。

It happens in The US and it's happened in The UK.

澳大利亚有什么不同呢？

What's so different about Australia?

为什么澳大利亚在促进竞争、拆分企业方面，应该比美国或英国更少自由市场呢？

Why should Australia be less, I suppose, free market in in the sense of promoting competition by breaking companies up than The US or The UK.

最后，我们听到吉姆·查默斯说，打击超市是为了缓解生活成本压力。

And just finally, so we've heard Jim Chalmers say that cracking down on supermarkets, that's about relieving cost of living pressure.

那么，你认为政府宣布的这些措施——即加大对ACCC的资金支持以及让更多土地可用于新建超市——能否真正降低人们的日常生活成本？

So do you think that what has been announced, so this ACCC funding boost and more land potentially becoming available for new supermarkets, do you think these measures are going to do that, to make the cost of living more affordable for people?

我认为，如果这些措施受到各方压力的推动，它们会产生效果。

I do think they'll have an effect if they're surrounded by pressure from all sides.

而且，坦率地说，政府每隔几天就宣布一项新举措，而大型调查报告将在二月发布。

And, you know, frankly, the government's announcing a new thing every few days, and there'll be the major inquiry reporting in February.

如果他们受到各方面的压力，他们就有能力倾听。

If they're surrounded by pressure on all sides, they have the ability to listen.

这有点像澳洲航空。

It's a bit like Qantas.

澳洲航空收取高额票价，但在有竞争或受到审查时，它可以降低票价。

Qantas charges high fares, but, it can cut them when there's competition or or when it's under scrutiny.

彼得，非常感谢你抽出时间。

Peter, thank you so much for your time.

非常荣幸。

A great pleasure.

我是丹尼尔·詹姆斯。

I'm Daniel James.

《7AM》节目，明天我们将带来一期关于埃隆·马斯克计划发射一百万颗卫星进入轨道以支持人工智能的节目。

7AM, we'll be back tomorrow with an episode on Elon Musk's plan to launch a million satellites into orbit to power AI.

这会对夜空造成什么影响？如果卫星发生碰撞会怎样？

What will that do to the night sky, and what happens if the satellites collide?

在我居住的加拿大萨斯喀彻温省附近，一枚SpaceX载人龙飞船的货舱大块碎片坠落在了农田上。

Near where I live in Saskatchewan, Canada, a SpaceX Crew Dragon trunk, big pieces of it landed onto farmland.

农民们发现了这些巨大的碎片，联系了一位天文学家，然后不得不思考如何处理外国航天器的残骸落在自家农田上的问题。

Farmers found these giant pieces, got in contact with an astronomer, and and then had to figure out how how do you deal with pieces of a foreign country's spacecraft on your farm.

对吧？

Right?

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

我们明天再见。

We'll be back tomorrow.