与Roman Mars和Ben Brock Johnson一起畅玩

大家好，可爱的极客们。我对我们的新迷你剧《隐藏关卡》感到无比兴奋。这是一部六集系列节目，讲述电子游戏如何走出街机厅并开始重塑现实世界。我们与WBUR的《无尽线索》节目合作制作，由本·布洛克·约翰逊共同主持并创作。该剧将于10月7日周二在99%隐形和无尽线索的播客频道同步上线。

Hello, beautiful nerds. I am so excited about our new miniseries, Hidden Levels. It's a six part show about how video games left the arcade and started reshaping the real world. We made it in partnership with WBUR's Endless Thread, and it's cohosted and created by Ben Brock Johnson. The show launches wide on both the 99 p I and Endless Thread feeds on Tuesday, October 7.

但如果你已经是SiriusXM播客Plus订阅用户，前两集现在就可以收听。本和我希望向全球游戏玩家宣传这个节目，所以我们参加了精彩的Get Played播客，与主持人希瑟·安·坎贝尔和马特·阿波达卡畅谈。那次对话非常精彩，他们如此热情好客，我们想与99%隐形的听众分享。你将听到本如何构思这个系列，并抢先了解我们将探讨的内容。用年轻人的话说，还会爆出许多关于罗曼·马斯的新料。所以如果你好奇我在1997到1999年间做了什么以及它与电子游戏的关系，请持续关注。

But if you're already a SiriusXM podcast plus subscriber, the first two episodes are already waiting for you right now. Ben and I wanted to get the word out about the show to video gamers everywhere, so we went on the great Get Played podcast to talk with hosts Heather Ann Campbell and Matt Apodaca, and it was such a great conversation, and they were such gracious hosts that we wanted to share that conversation with 99 p I listeners. You'll hear about how Ben came up with the idea for the series and a sneak peek at some of the things that we'll be covering. And as the kids say, a whole lot of new Roman Mars lore gets dropped. So if you're ever curious about what I was doing from around 1997 to 1999 and what it has to do with video games, stay tuned.

好的。希瑟，我们何不先介绍下嘉宾？

Alright. Well, Heather, why don't we introduce our guests?

没问题，马特。开始吧。

Okay, Matt. Let's do it.

好的。来自99%隐形播客和WBUR的新系列节目《隐藏关卡》。隐藏

Okay. From the podcast 99% Invisible and WBUR and their new series, Hidden Levels. Hidden

关卡。这会是什么内容呢？

Levels. What could that be about?

我来告诉你。它探讨电子游戏对现代文化的影响。有请罗曼·马斯和本·布洛克·约翰逊。你们好啊！

Well, I'll tell you. It explores the impact of video games on modern culture. It's Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson. What's up, guys?

嗨，大家好。

Hi, guys.

嘿，嘿，欢迎欢迎。见到你们真高兴。

Hey. Hey. Welcome. Nice to see y'all.

欢迎来到节目现场。

Welcome to the show.

欢迎收听Get Played节目。我们现在可是正儿八经地在做节目呢。

Welcome welcome to Get Played, show. This is like we're actually we're doing the show in a very serious way now.

听起来多专业啊。没错。平时我们可完全不是这种调调。

We sound so professional. Yeah. And normally, none of this tone is present.

可不是嘛。大家肯定觉得，这太假了。对对，这根本不是真的。

No. Everyone is like, this is false. Yeah. Yeah. This is not true.

确实不是。

This is not.

这里有些人为的痕迹。

There's an artifice here.

马特和希瑟被AI取代了。没错。他们现在只用虚拟形象做节目。

Matt and Heather have been replaced with AI. Yeah. They've got, like, just avatars doing the show.

我当时手指交叉坐着。对，就是双手交叠那样。

I was just sitting with my fingers, like, laced Yeah. In the in the hand.

有点像《新世纪福音战士》里的碇源堂。

Little little what Gendo from Evangelion.

我在模仿《新世纪福音战士》的碇源堂。快进驾驶舱。罗曼，快进驾驶舱。感谢各位的到来。

I was being Gendo from Evangelion. Get in the robot. Yeah. Roman, get in the robot. Thanks for being here, you guys.

听说你们有个新播客系列即将推出，你说过发布日期是10月7日。不如给我们讲讲《隐藏关卡》？

So you guys have a new podcast series that's coming out. You said the street date was October 7. Why don't you tell us a little bit about, Hidden Levels?

来吧，本。

Go for it, Ben.

好的。Hidden Levels这个项目，大约一年前我开始与Roman和他的团队讨论。

Alright. Well, Hidden Levels is something that, I started talking to Roman and his team about about a year ago.

哇。

Wow.

这源于我观察到的一个现象——虽然对你们和听众来说可能显而易见——电子游戏的影响早已超越游戏本身。没错。我认为游戏从业者和玩家都深有体会，他们在日常生活中随处可见源自游戏文化的元素。

And it came out of this thing that I was seeing and look this is gonna be a statement of the obvious for you and your audience, Like video games impact the world beyond video games. Hell yeah. And I think it's one of those things that people who are in gaming and who play video games, they know. They see it all the time as they walk through the world. They see things that they recognize as coming from their culture and the world that they inhabit when they play games.

但许多不熟悉游戏的人往往注意不到这些。我一直是Roman节目的忠实粉丝，我自己也为波士顿公共电台WBUR制作网络节目《无尽线索》。Roman的节目（他本人介绍会更精彩）专注于那些隐形却至关重要的建筑与设计，它们的影响力远超创造者预期。感觉我们的合作就像游戏地牢里的天作之合，于是就这样开始了。

But I think a lot of people who don't know video gaming as well or don't play games don't see that stuff and don't recognize it as easily. And, you know, I've always been a huge fan of Roman's show. I make a show about the Internet called Endless Thread for WBUR, this public radio station in Boston, and, always been a huge fan of Roman's show. And Roman's show, which Roman will introduce better than me, is all about the, you know, the architecture and design in the world that you don't see, but is hugely important and has an impact beyond its creators. So it just kinda felt like a match made in in a in a video game dungeon, and, we went from there.

听你说游戏已渗透进文化肌理很有意思。我们这代人确实见证了这个转变——如今连广告牌都在用'升级你的健身计划'这种游戏术语。'升级'这个概念最初只出现在《超级马里奥》说明书里，孩子们得先学习这个词汇，再在电视上实践，课间休息时互相传授。

It's it's it's it's neat to hear you say that, like, video games have become sort of, like, ubiquitously infused into culture because there was a time in certainly our lifetimes when that wasn't the case. And now you will see video game language on, like, a billboard. You'll see things that say, like, level up your workout. And leveling up was once a a a thing that was in an instruction booklet for Super Mario Brothers. Like, you would have to be like you'd have to learn the the vocabulary and then understand it on your television and tell your friends at recess.

而现在这些游戏用语就像现实世界的永久冻土层。

And now these are just, they're sort of like permafrost on on reality now.

没错。它们已经普通到几乎不引人注意了，这正是《99%隐形》关注的领域——那些融入建构世界变得司空见惯的设计，比如门把手、下水道井盖。

Yeah. I mean, they're really they're they're almost mundane in every day is part of the thing. They're not, like, notable. And that's sort of what that's where the bailiwick of 99% Invisible. It's about, you know, the design that is part of the built world that becomes so ordinary doorknobs, sewer covers.

你知道的，就像，突然之间，你深深凝视它们时会发现，哦，这里面有个故事。比如有人在那里做了决定，设计了某些东西，而我们每天都在与之互动。电子游戏尤其适合这种解读，因为它们已经渗透进现实生活，来回穿梭，传递信息，规模庞大且内容丰富。我们在这个系列中有六个故事，但可能还有成百上千个类似的故事可以挖掘。

You know, like, you know, like and and and all of sudden, like, looking at them deeply and going, oh, there's a story in that. Like, somebody made that a decision there, and they designed something, and we're interacting with it every day. And video games are just ripe for this because the way that they've infiltrated, you know, real life and and back and forth, and they communicate, and it's just it's it's huge and it's rich. And we had you know, we have six stories in this series, but there's, like, hundreds more like we could possibly do.

是啊。我想是的，所以这是一个六集的迷你剧对吧？里面有六个不同的故事。它们是否都遵循着相似的轨迹发展呢？

Yeah. I guess so so there's a it's a it's a six episode miniseries. Right? And so there's six different stories. Do they all sort of, like, follow, like, a similar trajectory?

它们之间有没有某种交集，还是说这些故事各自独立，影响力互不干扰？

Do they intersect in any sort of way, or, like, are all these things kinda, like, on their own island as as far as, like, impact?

我觉得两者兼而有之吧。嗯。在制作过程中我们发现它们之间衔接得非常自然。明白吗？

I would say, like, it's a little bit of both. Yeah. Mhmm. You know, they they I think we found in making the series that they they led into each other really well. You know?

其中一集讲述了一场非常著名的体育比赛，我想你一定能认出其中的音效。那个故事以'轰隆咔嚓'（我们姑且这么说）的方式结束，这让我们开始讨论起游戏手柄以及我们操控游戏的方式。这进而引出了关于游戏控制硬件的故事，以及这些硬件本身如何影响了游戏之外的世界各个领域。罗曼，你觉得这样说准确吗？虽然剧情不连续，但...

We have an episode about a very famous sports game that I think the sounds of which you will recognize. And and you know the way that story ends, with a boom shakalaka shall we say, you know had us had us starting to talk about interestingly enough just joysticks and the ways that we control these games. And that leads into a story for instance about the hardware that we use to control these games and how that hardware has itself influenced all these other parts of the world that are not specifically or exclusively about gaming. Is that Roman, would you say that's fair? It's not serialized, but

是的。

it's Yeah.

你可以单独收听每一集。但因为...这个世界是如此紧密相连，它们之间会互相呼应。当我们把它们组合在一起时就很明显了——哦，这就是讲述这些内容的正确顺序，仅仅因为...你懂的...

You can you can listen to each episode on its own. But because Yeah. The world is so connected, you know, like, they they kinda talk each other, and it was it was becoming clear as we were putting them together. Like, oh, this is the right order to to speak, you know, to speak about the man, you know, just just because it, you know, like it

对。

Right.

它把这些联系建立得相当不错。

It set up those connections kinda nicely.

对。就像，你在谈论控制器。我想在电子游戏出现之前，人们得通过拉不同的绳子来驾驶飞机。然后他们看到了操纵杆，就觉得，你知道，这能让飞行变得容易很多。

Right. Like, you're you're talking about controllers. Like, I think before video games, people used to have to fly planes by pulling these different ropes. Yeah. And then they they saw the joysticks, and they were like, you know, this could make flying a lot easier.

你可以

You could

继续关注。第二集，你会了解到完整的故事，因为我们追溯了操纵杆的整个进化历程。飞机部分也涉及其中。知道吗？哦，真的吗？

just stay tuned. Episode two, you're gonna have the full story because it we we trace Emory, like, traces the whole, like, evolution of a joystick. Part the plane is involved. Know? Oh, really?

战争游戏也涉及其中。

War games are involved.

嗯，我正想说，你把飞机作为切入点很有趣，因为我刚才还在想，基于使用电子游戏控制器玩那些需要驾驶飞机的游戏，比如飞行模拟器，甚至是《星球大战》里的侠盗中队。

Well, I was gonna say, it's it's interesting that airplanes was the thing that you you you pegged there because I was just thinking based on using a video game controller and, like, playing games where you have to fly planes, like, you know, flight simulator or even, like, you know, the Uh-huh. Rogue Squadron, the Star Wars.

是啊。

Yep.

飞行游戏。我有点觉得我能开飞机。我甚至觉得从没试过也能直接上手。

Flying game. I kinda think I could fly a plane. I kind of think I could just do it having never tried it.

马特，我给你讲过我自己开飞机的故事吗？

Matt, have I ever told you the story of me flying a plane?

我觉得你讲过，但你现在必须得再说一遍。请快告诉我们吧。

I think you have, but you have to tell you to say it now. Please go and tell us.

我当时在威斯康星州，那里有那种，你知道的，路边那种农民自有的小飞机，他会带你快速飞一圈

I I was in Wisconsin, and and they have those, like, know, like roadside, like, get in an airplane that a farmer owns, and he'll take you on a quick

我是说，

I mean,

我自己从没见过这种服务，不过我理解。尽管

I've never seen that myself, but I I understand. Even though

我们深入威斯康辛州腹地时，那里有些开着农用飞机的人，他们会说‘20美元带你飞一圈’之类的。于是我就上了其中一架飞机到处飞。那家伙突然问‘你想不想开飞机？’，我说‘想啊’。然后他就让我操控飞机了。

we've deep enough into Wisconsin, there's, like, you know, the guys who have crop dusters, and they're like, you know, $20 for a ride anyway. Or so I got into one of these planes and was, like, flying around. And the guy was like, do you wanna you wanna fly the plane? And I was like, yes. And so he let me fly the plane.

接着他说‘嘿，你飞得挺不错嘛’。在让别人开飞机时发现这个天赋挺疯狂的。我回答说‘是啊，我玩过很多次微软飞行模拟’。

And then he was like, hey. You're pretty good at this. Crazy thing to learn while letting somebody else fly a plane. And I was like, yeah. I've played a lot of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

他就说‘对，跟那个差不多’

And he's like, yeah. It's kinda the same thing.

要我说，那些玩微软飞行模拟的人是真有两下子。感觉那简直就...

I mean, those those Microsoft Flight Simulator, like, folks are for real. I feel like that's that's that's a

确实。

very yeah.

跟真飞机几乎没区别。

It's close to the real deal.

噢没错。配上全套设备？确实。

Oh, yeah. With, like, a full rig? Yeah.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

那就是

That's the

全套装备。我听说，尽管我们喜欢用类似游戏输入的方式驾驶飞机，但我听说游戏控制器在潜艇上表现非常糟糕。

The full rig. I hear I I will say as as much as we like flying planes with with sort of a game input, I've heard that game controllers are really bad at submarines.

对，其实我也听说过一些相关的事。具体记不清了，但隐约记得有个故事。如果我没记错细节的话，一艘潜艇

Yeah. I heard something about that too, actually. I can't remember what it was, but I sort of do remember some story. I think if I remember the details correctly, a submarine

我不确定那次事故是控制器的责任。显然

I'm not sure it was the controller's fault in that situation. It certainly

那并非一个密封无逃生通道的容器。

wasn't an airtight vessel with no escape.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

这根本不可能是人类出现在那里的原因。

Couldn't have been the reason why humans are there at all.

但这非常迷人，我喜欢我们讲述关于控制器的故事，因为系列中还有其他几个故事也涉及这一点，我想罗曼之前提到过，这些东西在互相交流，对吧？就像你拥有这个硬件，它最初是为人们用来穿越现实世界的大型机械设备而设计的。然后它又启发了数字世界，而数字世界反过来又影响了现实世界。我认为这正是我们在制作这个系列时真正着迷的地方。

But it is fascinating and I love the story that we do about controllers because and there's a couple of other stories that have in the series that talk about this too and I think Roman said this earlier these things are talking to each other, right? Like you have this piece of hardware that's really created for an actual massive mechanical machine that people use to traverse the real world. And that inspires then a digital world, and then that then again goes back and inspires the real world. And I think that's the thing that's that's really fascinated us when working on this series.

这真的很酷。

That's really cool.

我是说，有没有什么——我想在不剧透任何具体故事的情况下问问。

Was there anything I mean, I guess without spoiling any, like, sort of particular story.

不。我是说，直接告诉我们你即将推出的系列中最精彩的五个瞬间吧。对，就像——对，全告诉我们。

No. I mean, just tell us the top five moments of your upcoming series. Yeah. Just like just yeah. Give us all

我是说，希瑟，听起来你好像已经听过第二集了。所以，你——

I mean, Heather, you sound like you already heard the second episode. So, you

知道，我——我不知道。

know, I I don't know.

我觉得有人泄露了它。我不知道。

I think somebody leaked it. I don't know.

我想是的，有没有什么特别让你感到意外的事情？比如，你在了解某些事情时，是否从未想过，比如，电子游戏在现代世界能有如此大的影响力？哇。

I guess, yeah, was anything in particular, like like, particularly revelatory to you? Like, were you, like, upon learning something, just, like, never would have even considered, like, this like, you know, like, a video game being that impactful in the modern sort of world at all? Wow.

好吧，对我来说有很多内容。我是说，我喜欢摇杆的一点是——既然我们在谈论它——我经常涉及设计，所以我思考设计原则。有一个概念叫做“可供性”，即设备通过外观就能传达你应该如何使用它。摇杆的可供性非常直观。

Okay. Well, there's a lot for me. I mean, I thought that the I mean, what what I loved about the joystick one since we since we're talking about it is I you know, I cover design a lot, and so I think about sort of principles of design. And there's a there's this there's this concept of affordance, like what a device, you know, kind of telegraphs what you're supposed to do with it just by looking at it, essentially. And so a joystick has extremely just grokable affordance.

比如，你想向上移动，就向上推；想向下移动，就向下推。就是这样。而在平面触屏游戏的世界里，平面屏幕没有可供性。

Like, you know that when you wanna go up, you push up. When you wanna go down, you push down. You're like Yeah. And so there's that that sort of thing. And then, you know, in the world of flat screen, touch screen games, there you know, a flat screen has no affordance.

你可以用屏幕做任何事情，但对我来说，这在很多方面变得不那么有趣。所以有类似这样的设计原则，尽管我做了15年关于设计的节目，但我从未有一个好例子向观众描述这一点。

Like, you can do anything with a screen, and it becomes, like, less fun to me, you know, like, in many ways. And so there's things like that. It's like the principles of design that we were able to drill down on that even though I've done a show about design for fifteen years, like, I've never really had a good example to describe that to an audience. You know?

是啊。

Like Yeah.

所以当我们在编辑中讨论它，并由Amory报告时，我们能够讨论这一点，并意识到故事、思想、理论和设计都是电子游戏的基础部分。这应该是显而易见的，因为电子游戏是从头开始完全设计的。没有什么是现成的，一切都是某人头脑创造的。是的。

And so when we were talking about it in editing and and it was being reported out by Amory, like, you know, like, we were able to discuss this and, know, bring so it's like it's it's just like what was fascinating to me was how fundamental both, like, you know, story and thought and theory and design all is is part of all video games. And and it should be obvious because, you know, video games because, I mean, they are completely designed from the ground up. There's no part of it that you're like, there is the earth that I'm going to build on and therefore I have to deal with the earth. The the earth is created by somebody's mind. The Yeah.

空气是由某人的思维创造的，因此万物皆源于构想。正因如此，有无数探索的途径，因为电子游戏里的每个像素都承载着人们的决策。是的，这真的让我在方方面面都深受启发——就像有一群超级聪明的人在不断做出抉择、思考问题。而最妙的是，在这类占游戏99%的隐形设计中，你未必能感受到创作者的存在。你只是沉浸其中，这恰恰说明他们在很多方面做得非常出色。

The air is created by somebody's mind, and so everything is thought of. And because of that, there's so many avenues to explore because everyone made a decision about every pixel inside of a video game. Yeah. And that is really that was just, like, lit me up in sort of every story in so many ways because it just is like there's, like, super smart people making decisions and thinking about things, and you just and and what's so great about it in this sort 99% invisible part of video games is you don't necessarily have to feel the author. You just feel immersed, and that means that they're doing a good job in a lot of ways.

这就是我尤其偏爱动画胜过实景拍摄的原因——动画里几乎没有偶然性。几乎每个细节都是经过精心设计的选择，电子游戏也是如此。不过现在有很多涌现式玩法并非设计初衷。

This is why I particularly enjoy animation over live action is because there's so few accidents in animation. Like, so much of it is just curated choices of design and intent, and that's also a lot of video games. Although now there's a lot of emergent play that isn't particularly the designed purpose of the

游戏。对。

game. Right.

这类玩法会自然浮现出来。我有个衍生问题：你提到观察物体就能明白其用途。这可能在你的播客里讨论过，但如果没有的话我特别好奇——你认为哪种物品（非触屏设备）的设计最糟糕？就是你看它完全不明白该怎样使用，而它明明只有一种功能。

And that sort of stuff will, like, float to the surface. I had a side question, which is you talking about the looking at an object and knowing what its purpose is. And I think this is probably maybe something you've talked about on your podcast before, but if it is isn't, I'm super curious. What is what do you think are, like what is the most how how do I put this? What's an object that you think is very poorly not a touch screen, but that you look at it, and you don't know what it's supposed to do, and it's supposed to do one thing.

比如我看着削皮器时，完全不会想到这是用来刮胡萝卜的。

For example, when I look at a carrot peeler, I am absolutely not thinking that's so that I can scrape it on a carrot.

我正想说泡菜夹呢！感觉我们想到一块儿去了。就是那种你需要...呃...像...

I was gonna say pickle picker upper. So, like, I feel like we're in the same headspace somehow. You know those things where you, like, you gotta, like Like,

夹子？

the tong?

对，它有点像...后端看起来像个注射器，前端则像游戏里那种爪子，你懂我意思吧？

Yeah. It's sort of like it looks like a syringe on the back end, and on the front end, it looks like one of those claws in the gaming in the actual you know what I'm saying?

其实我之前不知道那是干嘛用的。

Actually didn't know that that was what that was.

今天我们学到了

Today, we learned

我还以为

I thought that

那是用来处理火鸡的。我在厨房见过，但不知道用途。我我还

was for, like, a turkey. I've seen that in a kitchen, and I didn't know. I I also

说像是用它来挠背。

say like scratching her back with it.

夹泡菜用的。我我还觉得——这可不是因为我们的节目是给蠢人看且由蠢人制作的。

Picking my pickles. I I also think and this is not because this that our show is for and made by stupid people.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

马桶不像那样，它们不一定会标明自己的用途

Toilets are not like, they don't necessarily say what they

是什么。你未必会知道自己需要那么做

are. You wouldn't necessarily know that you have to do that

因为你不会想到，哦，我应该过去把东西排进水里。

to do because you wouldn't be like, oh, I should go over there and empty into the water.

对。

Yeah.

就像，你会看着它，然后琢磨，这是某种沐浴装置吗？

Like, you would you would look at it, and you would think, is this a kind of bathing apparatus?

我该把

Do I put my

把脚放进来清理它吗？

foot in here to clean it?

或者你看到水，如果你没有——如果你只是想着‘我要喝这个’的话。

Or you see water, and you would if you had not if you would just be I'm gonna drink this.

是啊。我是说，我家猫就这么想。我家猫真这么觉得。对。没错。

Yeah. I mean, my cat thinks that. My cat thinks that. Yeah. Sure.

嗯。

Yeah.

对。完全同意。

Yeah. Absolutely.

罗曼在那儿。

Roman is there.

如果马桶上有40个按钮，那可就真的危险了。

If the toilet has 40 buttons on it, it's then it gets really dangerous.

你知道我会把所有按钮都按一遍，就为了弄清楚它们的功能，然后时不时被结果吓一跳。就像

And you know I'm gonna push all of them so I can learn exactly what the buttons do and then be horrified by the results every now and then. Just like

电梯那样。

the elevator.

对。没错。

Yep. Yep.

我认为多数智能设备的可操作性都很糟糕，你不知道怎么用它们，还得阅读说明书之类的。相比之下，比如胡萝卜削皮器这种东西——虽然我不想过多反驳这个例子——你拿到手很快就能明白它是用来削皮的。你会看着它想，这就是我要用的工具。但我觉得更值得思考的是，比如你在一个房子里住了二十年，却仍然分不清炉灶上哪个旋钮对应哪个火眼。

I I think the sort of plurality of smart devices have terrible affordance, and you don't know how to use them, and you have to read, you know, like, instructions on how to get them. And one of the things that makes things I mean, like, I would argue not to disagree greatly with the carrot peeler thing. If you had a carrot peeler, I think you'd quickly learn that it peeled. You know, like, you would see it and go, here's what I'm handing. But but but, like, I like to think about this as, you know you know, when you you know, we I think everyone's had this experience when you've lived in a house for maybe twenty years, and you still don't know which knob goes to which burner on your stove.

确实。

Yes.

这种糟糕设计很奇怪——本不该让人费神去记。就像一排电灯开关，你需要靠记忆联想哪个开关控制哪盏灯，这本身就是设计失败。我们常把问题归咎于自己：'我太笨了，记不住开关对应关系'。但实际上这是糟糕的设计决策，未能体现'好的设计应该让人一目了然'的原则。

Like, that's a type of weird bad design that is like it's like you shouldn't have to think about it. Or, like, if you have a bank of light switches and you you have some kind of mnemonic as to which socket it goes to, like, those represent, you know, design fails. And and I think a lot of us take those things on as, like, I'm so dumb. I can't remember what light switch goes to which socket. But really, those are bad design decisions, and they they don't represent, you know, they don't sort of, like, exhibit good design that which that would sort of, like, you you would normally have to set that up so you wouldn't get confused, and that's the way to do that.

那么你认为在电子游戏设计和现实设计中，你更倾向于拟物化设计吗？还是说，比如屏幕上磁带录音机的图标——由于现代人已经不太接触实物磁带机——并不能让人明白需要按那个按钮开始录音？你有什么方法能改进游戏设计吗？

Yeah. So would you say that in terms of video game design and then real world design that your interests lie in more skeuomorphic design choices? Or are you do you find that trying to translate like, looking at an icon for a tape recorder on a screen doesn't tell you the story that you are supposed to push that button in order to make the recording start because, also, you're you have dissociated so much from what a tape recorder is. Like, what how would you do you have a way to make game design better? Yeah.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

老实说我不这么认为。好吧。但我的意思是，我可以告诉你，我认为这类拟物化设计确实有其作用，因为它们基于现实世界的类比，让人们知道如何在数字空间中操作。特别是在适应数字空间的过渡阶段。但我觉得现在，比如在我孩子面前放一个模拟的盘式录音机图标，并期望他们能理解，这已经没什么意义了。

I honestly don't. Okay. But but, I mean, I can tell you, like, you know, I think that these sort of you know, these these kind of things like skeuomorphisms that that sort of lead people because they because you know the real world analog, and therefore, know how to do them inside of a digital space. You know, they have their role, especially during the transitional phase of of getting used to a digital space. But I think at this point, there is like, there's no point in putting, like, an analog, you know, reel to reel in front of my kid on Icon and and have them have that make sense to them.

所以我认为设计语言确实会随着时间不断演进和改变。

So like that I think that design language, you know, just evolves and changes over time for sure.

也许我们在讨论设计时这是另一个话题，但作为45岁的人，我惊叹于早期街机和任天堂游戏的操作复杂性。记得那些要花很久才能弄懂如何移动角色或精灵的游戏。比如《茶杯头》——如果你知道这个新游戏的话。

And maybe maybe this is a different kind of thing when we're talking about design, but I one thing that I'm amazed at, know, I'm I'm, 45. Right? So like I, the first games that I played were arcade games and Nintendo games. And I remember games that were, they took forever and so long to figure out how to use, how to, like, move the player, how to move the sprite, whatever. And just like, you know, think of a game like well, this is a new example, but like Cuphead, if you know that game.

是啊。说实话我连第一关都没过去，那游戏太难了。

Yeah. And like that I don't think I think I've still not made it past the first level of that game. Like, that's a hard that's a hard game.

确实。

Yeah.

嗯。但我觉得它是在致敬那些不会主动引导玩家的老游戏。现在的游戏会让你立即沉浸其中，逐步给出指令，比如'按X键拾取枪支'。游戏与玩家的沟通方式比过去那种晦涩难懂的设计进步太多了，现在基本是傻瓜式引导，不知道这么说是否清楚。

Mhmm. But it's sort of I feel like it's calling back to some of those games where you you just really it didn't push you forward. The game didn't pull you forward in the way the games do now where like you're immediately immersed in the space that you're playing in and you're just getting these directives one at a time like press X to pick up the gun. You know what I mean? Like there's there's a a way in which the game is communicating with you as a player that is I feel much better now than it used to be where they used to be kind of like esoteric and hard to get into in some ways and now it's like it's kinda dummy proof some of the way that the games communicate with you as you, like, move into the environment, if that makes sense.

你真可悲。

You sorry.

我本来想说，电子游戏的整体素养很大程度上源于你已有的游戏知识储备。比如，我不认为一个从未玩过游戏的人能直接上手《最后生还者2》这类游戏，并觉得轻松。因为有很多操作你必须掌握，比如左摇杆控制角色移动，右摇杆调整视角——这就像同时学习一手拍头一手揉肚子那样需要协调。但如果你已经会玩一款游戏，大概率也能轻松上手其他游戏。

I was gonna say so much literacy for video games in general comes from your, like, predetermined knowledge of vid you have to, like I don't think somebody could pick up, like, The Last of Us two, for example, having never played a video game before and be like, this is easy to me. Because there's so many things you sort of do have to know, like, that the left joystick moves your person and then the right joystick moves your field of vision. And that's like you're sort of learning to sort of pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time kind of with with some of these things. Well, yeah. Well, like, if you know how to play a video game, chances are you're gonna know how to play a different video game pretty easily.

对啊对啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

还有很多已成为游戏通用语的历史遗留设计。

There's also a lot of vestigial stuff that has just become the vocabulary of games.

确实。

Yeah.

比如弹药会藏在木桶里这种设定。

Like, for example, there's ammo in barrels. Yeah.

而且以前还...

And it used to be

好吧，但是但是但是我喜欢如果你看看，就像

well, but but but I like if you look at, like

不是现实生活，通过

not real life, by

这种方式。

the way.

在现实中不是这样运作的

That's not how that works in

现实生活。

real life.

那里的骨骼形态是

The skeletomorphism there is

但它但它源自于你玩这些横向卷轴格斗游戏的时代，屏幕上信息量很少。也许你正穿过一座城市，屏幕上用像素渲染着垃圾桶。是的。所以你知道，哦，我可以击打那些垃圾桶。当你击打垃圾桶时，有时会得到食物物品，帮助你的角色恢复生命值。

But it but it comes from a time when you're playing these side scrolling fighting games, and there isn't a lot of information on screen. And perhaps you're walking through a city, and there are trash cans rendered in pixels on the on the screen. Yeah. And so you know, oh, I can punch those trash cans. And when you punch the trash cans, sometimes you'll get a food item that will help your character get their life back.

然后你会打翻一个垃圾桶，一只火鸡跑出来，你就会想，哦，我现在能变得更强了吗？

And so you'll punch a trash can and a turkey will come out, and you'll be like, oh, I can I now I can get better?

是的。

Yes.

但所有这些传统设计理念一直延续到了《最后生还者2》

But all of that legacy has then gone all the way to effectively Last of Us part two

没错。

Yeah.

在游戏里你会疯狂破坏环境，试图为角色寻找弹药

Where you're, like, smashing shit in the environment to try and find ammunition for your character

噢，良药苦口啊。

Oh, good medicine.

是啊。这种互动方式在现实中绝对不可能发生。开发者把这些设定当作常识，但要知道，就像人们看的第一部电影可以是任何电影一样。

Yeah. In a way that you absolutely never would interact with reality. No. And all of that is sort of an assumed knowledge on part of the developers that is then you know, like, you can't like, people can watch any movie as their first movie tech like, generally.

是啊。总有一天这可能不该是你的首选

Yeah. It you'll someday probably shouldn't be your first

电影。对。但你可以...你不必非得...现在没有那么多...狗也会看电影了。网上全是那些TikTok视频，比如人们拍狗狗看《狮子王》，跟着剧情走。我就想，

movie. Right. But you can you you don't have to like, there's not a a ton like, dogs watch movies now. There's all the TikToks of, like, people like, dogs watching the lion king and under and following it. And I'm like,

它们怎么跟得上剧情？好吧，因为它们...它们能理解辛巴的成长线。

how does Are they following it? Well, yeah, because they they They're, like, getting the they're getting Simba's arc.

它们绝对能理解辛巴的故事线，因为当...那个刀疤是谁来着？刀疤。刀疤出场时狗狗会冲他叫，因为他之前伤害过别人。所以狗确实能跟上剧情，我就纳闷，狗怎么理解剪辑切换的？

They are definitely getting Simba's arc because when when who's that scar? Scar. Scar's on screen. They'll bark at Scar because he's hurt somebody earlier. So the dog is following it, and I'm like, how does the dog understand what an edit is?

怎么做到狮子明明在那边，突然又出现在这边...总之这些题外话是想说

How is it like, the lion is over there and then the lion's over anyway, all this is a digression to say that

十只狗里有九只讨厌刀疤。

Nine out of ten dogs hate Scar. That

这倒是真的。

is true.

确实如此。它们并不真实。

That is true. They don't be true.

好吧，我迷路了。

Well, I got lost.

他斯卡是一只猫。斯卡就是只猫。

He Scar a cat. Scar's a cat.

对。没错。它们都讨厌

Right. Yeah. They all hate the

狗不喜欢那样。

dogs don't like that.

它们憎恨联盟。

They hate the alliance.

让我们深入聊聊，比如，你们各自的游戏经历。我们刚才稍微提到了本的，但让我们再深入一点。你们现在对游戏的态度如何，我想，这是个不错的切入点。

Let's let's get into, like, your just your histories with gaming in general. We got a little bit of of Ben's there, but let's let's get into it just a little bit deeper. Where are you guys at with games, like, today, I guess, is a is a good jumping off point.

是啊。你在《堡垒之夜》里是什么段位？

Yeah. What's your rank in Fortnite?

老兄，勉强勉强，勉强活过五场——我是说，《堡垒之夜》这游戏...我的《堡垒之夜》体验...《堡垒之夜》属于那种...我觉得它的匹配机制变好了对吧？比如我刚玩的时候，可能我自己水平也提高了些（但愿如此），但最初那会儿简直是我尖叫两分钟然后重开的循环。懂我意思吗？就是全程抱头鼠窜然后重开。说实话，现在游戏对我来说主要是维系感情。

Man, barely barely, barely survives five I mean, Fortnite my my experience in Fortnite Fortnite's one of those games where I can I I think it's gotten better at matching, right? Like I used it when I first started playing Fortnite and maybe I've gotten better too, hopefully, but when I first started playing, it was like two minutes of me screaming and then starting over. Do you know what I mean? Like I was just like running and hiding and then starting over. I will say that I put you know really my gaming is these days about connection.

真的特别喜欢和全国各地见不到面的好友聊天。大家各有各的生活，他们当父母了，我也当爹了。每周我们通过一起打游戏、研究剧情来保持联系，这特别美好。重点不是冲分而是交流，我们甚至像团体治疗那样讨论生活困境。现在很多游戏都变成第二屏活动——边玩边忙别的，说不上好坏，但每周和哥们儿这样聊天对我意义重大。最近在玩《地狱潜者》，刚入坑《暗黑破坏神IV》。

Really like talking to my good friends across the country who I don't see anymore. You know, they have their own lives, I have my own life, they you know, they're parents, I'm a parent. So one of the ways that I connect with them is we play games together and we learn the lore together and we spend a couple hours every week doing that and that's really wonderful. And it's really less about the grind and more about talking to each other and you know, we've basically had group therapy sessions talking to each other as we've gone through life challenges and a lot of what we do these days is a sort of second screen activity or you're doing a couple things at the same time and I don't know if that's bad or good but I just know that like my buddies and I we talk every week and meaningful to me. And so I play Helldivers, I play we just started playing Diablo IV.

我们玩过所有《狙击精英》系列，因为有个兄弟痴迷狙击玩法。还玩了《消逝的光芒2》，超喜欢那个后末日打机器人的世界观——虽然老套但管用。不过主要还是图个乐子。队伍常分成两派：一半人只想突突突，另一半非要玩猎奇游戏，偶尔为此争执。但对我来说，游戏就是个联络感情、释放压力的渠道。

I we played, like, every sniper elite because one of my buddies is just obsessed with sniping and that's what he loves to do. I played Generation Z, I liked that game a lot because the crafting and just like moving through that sort of post apocalyptic fighting robots world which is, you know, that's a classic trope and it works. But mostly I just do it for fun. I mean we've tried to play weirder, odder games but we have a kind of split half of the group is like I just want to shoot guns and half of the group is like no let's do something weird and interesting with games and so sometimes we fight about that. But, generally, it's for me, it's just a place to connect and a way to connect and and blow off steam.

嗯。那个...Roman，我没说错吧？你现在算是退坑玩家？

Yeah. And and, Roman, am I correct? You're you're a bit of a lapsed gamer, would you say?

算是吧。其实我都不确定自己算不算真玩家。现在很少玩游戏，顶多被动玩玩塔防类——我工作需要听大量音频资料...

Yeah. I don't know if I was ever really a gamer as as such. I mean, I I I kinda I don't do much gaming, today. I kind of do passive, like, defend tower defense type games when I'm list I have to listen to a lot of of of audio for my job. Yeah.

所以需要不讲究操作时机的游戏，能一心二用的那种。超爱塔防游戏，偶尔也在Oculus上玩健身游戏——喜欢拳击之类的。不过有次真打沙袋把背给伤着了。

And so I need something that doesn't really require good timing. You know? That is something I can do while I'm doing something else. And so I love tower defense games, and I play some fitness games, like, on an Oculus because I like to box and stuff like this. And I I injured my back boxing for real when I punched stuff at, like, solid things.

哦，当然。是

Oh, sure. Is it

垃圾桶吗？你是想在垃圾桶里找火鸡吗？不是的。

a trash can? Were you trying to find a turkey in a trash can? No.

我我我希望是，但哪儿都找不到火鸡。我试过了。

I I I wish, but there are no turkeys anywhere. I've tried.

所以等等几个月吧。到时候到处都会有火鸡。确实如此。那是

And so Wait a couple months. There's gonna be turkeys everywhere. That's true. That's

没错。所以我特别喜欢超自然题材。我喜欢做这类事情，对我来说相当有趣。但我的经历有点奇怪。

true. So I love, like, supernatural. I love, like, doing stuff like that. It's pretty it's pretty fun for me. But my history is is is strange.

我，你知道，我我参与了九十年代游戏中一些最早语音聊天功能的开发。

I, you know, I I was involved in the development of some of the first, voice chat in gaming, in the nineties.

哇。而且

Wow. And

所以我有个大学同学，他开发了一款叫Roger Wilco的应用。这是个独立程序，运行在《博德之门》、《毁灭战士》或《部落》这类游戏的后台，支持28.8K调制解调器。它非常简洁优雅，我是公司的首位QA测试员，因此玩了很多早期像这样的多人游戏。说起来很有趣，卖掉那家公司...

so I had a friend who I went to college with, and he, developed this app called Roger Wilco. It was a standalone application that that that was behind, your Baldur's Gate or your your Doom or your Tribes, and, and it ran on a it ran on a twenty eight eight modem. You could it it was super clean and beautifully done, and I was the first QA tester for the company. And so I played a lot of early multiplayer games like that. And and and in fact, selling that it was funny.

正是卖掉那家公司，才支付了我三年在公共电台实习的费用，这段经历最终让我成为播客主播。

It was, like, selling that company is what paid for my three year internship in public radio that led me into being a podcaster. Wow.

哇，我早该知道这事的。

Wow. I should know that.

这就是深挖背景故事啊，酷。

Talk about learning the lore. Cool.

对，所以我早期做游戏测试。我经常连续玩好几个小时游戏，后台运行着Roger Wilco来测试功能是否正常，技术是否可靠。九十年代末期我基本就在干这个。

So so yeah. So early so I used to test games. So I played games, like, hours and hours with Roger Wilco running underneath it just to see if it works and if, you know, all the technology works. And and that's so that's what I did for, you know, like, late nineties. Yeah.

那段时期有没有哪款游戏让你觉得'这根本不像在工作'，纯粹是享受其中？

Do you from that time, do you remember a game that you were like, this I like, it didn't feel like work kind of that you're like, I'm actually enjoying this one. Yeah.

是《部落》。我在《部落：叛徒》模组里当狙击手，只要我进服务器就能清场——我枪法太准，人们看到我ID就退出。后来我不得不换马甲才能多玩会儿。玩过《部落》的都懂，那完全是我的主场。

It's tribes. I was I was a sniper in the renegade mod of tribes, and I could come on to a server, and I could clear it because I just killed. I just I I would just annihilate, and people would just leave as soon as they saw my name show up. And I began to have to, like, come in with different names so that they would play longer. But, yeah, if anyone knows tribes, that was like that was that was totally my game.

我会深入探讨那个更远的话题。

I would get into that one beyond.

我喜欢你的用户名。

I love your handle.

孟德尔。我是一名遗传学博士生，所以我用了孟德尔这个名字。通常是男性在用。

Mendel. I was a genetics PhD student, so I went by Mendel. Usually, men.

如果你狙击技术这么好却不用孟德尔的身份上线，我最爱服务器里人们突然反应过来的那一刻——‘哦，糟了’。覆盆子归孟德尔了。覆盆子归孟德尔了。

If you're if you're this good at sniping and you don't come on as Mendel, I love the moment on a server when people are like, oh, shit. Raspberry goes to Mendel. Raspberry goes to Mendel.

是啊。完全同意。

Yeah. Totally.

没错。以前经常惹恼别人，大家都指责我作弊之类的。其实真的只是...

Yeah. I used to frustrate a lot. Everyone excuse me of cheating and stuff like this. It was really like

我就是厉害而已。

I'm just good.

只是我特别擅长

Just I'm just great at

这个，伙计们。可能

this, guys. Could

是心理上的。我想因为我也喜欢拳击。我也是个拳击手。你选择的VR拳击应用是什么？

be mental. I wanna because I also I love to box. I'm also a boxer. What is your VR boxing app of choice?

我用Supernatural。我也喜欢那个。我喜欢它的音乐。是Mesa。不是，而且我已经做了，不知道是什么战斗。

I do Supernatural. I like that one too. I like the music. It's Mesa. It's not and I've done what is the fight for I don't know.

还有另一个实际上是视频游戏的，就像，当你有一个对手时。我也玩过那个，它让我筋疲力尽。那很棒。它们主要是健身游戏。它们不太像健身应用。

There's there's another one that's actually a video game game, like, that when you have a opponent. I've played that one too, and it wears me out. That's great. And they're they're mainly, like, fitness games. They're not so much like or fitness apps.

它们不太像只是一个拳击游戏所以

They're they're not so much just like a boxing game so

确实。

much. Right.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

对。有一个

Yeah. There was a

可能是游戏化的。对吧？这又是一个例子，说明世界如何变化，或者视频游戏世界如何改变...呃...其他世界。对吧？

probably gamified. Right? Which is another example of how the world changes or the video game world changes the the the other the rest of the world. Right?

没错。

Yeah.

确实。是的。不，它真的很有帮助，确实很激励人，而且你知道，教会你一些模式和类似的东西，这很好。主要是它能让我动起来。

For sure. Yeah. No. It really help it really is motivating for for sure and get you know, teaches you, you know, patterns and stuff like that, and it's it's good. It mainly just sort gets me moving.

我现在已经没有耐心坐下来玩游戏了。我觉得...我就是不再适应那种方式了。即使看电视时，我也大多是在跑步机上走路。所以健身游戏某种程度上是我既能活动又能玩游戏的方式。

I don't quite have constitution to sit and play a game anymore. I kind of I I just thought that's just not how I'm wired anymore. Even when I watch TV, I walk on a treadmill most of the time. And so so fitness gaming is sort of my my version of just, like, moving and playing games at the same time.

不过说到你游戏中的塔防元素，虽然我不常玩这类游戏，但我能想象像这样的游戏可以作为一个很好的次要活动，比如在...你知道...我长期编辑自己的声音时。任何能让我专注于不听自己声音、不纠结自己说话多难听的活动，我都会享受。但我容易分心，因为我选的游戏往往是像《空洞骑士：丝之歌》或《艾尔登法环》这类需要高度集中注意力的。而塔防游戏更像是设置好就放手的类型。对你来说它的吸引力在哪里？

The the to the tower defense aspect of of your gaming, though, I don't play a lot of those games, though, but, like, I could see the like, a game like that being a good second thing you're doing while, like, you know, listening to you know, I have edited my own voice for a long time too. So, like, to whatever is getting me focused on not hearing my own voice and, you know, how horrible I sound when I when I speak, I'll I'll I'll I'll enjoy another activity as well. But I get I get distracted because the things the games that I pick are gonna be like like like Hollow Knight Silksong or like Elden Ring or something where I have to be so focused on the actions of what's going on. But like a tower defense thing, it's like a set it and forget it type of thing. What's the appeal for your for you there?

是的。我的意思是，基本上就是这样。通常随着难度提升会涉及一些时机把握，但不需要像《银河战士》那样精确的时间控制。

Yeah. I mean, it's basically that. It's like you can you there's a little bit of timing involved usually as it gets to the upper levels or or whatever. But but, like, your precise sort of, you know, Metroid style timing is not required.

你懂吧？确实。

You know? Yeah.

所以这更像是你必须保持在场状态。我发现这实际上有助于我集中注意力，因为单纯听讲容易走神。我的工作需要听大量原始对话录音，听无数播客和有声书（为采访做准备）。之前在WBUR工作时我就这么做了。

And so and so it's just sort of like you have to kinda be a present. And I just find that it it actually kinda helps me focus because I can drift listening. I have to listen to hours and hours of people talking, like, in terms of, like, raw tape of people talking. I listen to a ton of podcasts, and I listen to a lot of books on tape, in quotes for my job to prepare for interviews. And and I used to do this when I I worked at WBUR.

抱歉，是WBEZ。我在芝加哥的WBEZ工作过，那时我整天坐在办公桌前听音频纪录片，同时玩纸牌游戏。有经理路过时还嘲笑我，抱怨我整天玩游戏不务正业。

Sorry. WBUR. I worked at WBEZ in Chicago, and and I used to sit at my desk, and one of my jobs was listening to audio documentaries all day long. And I sit at my desk and play solitaire. And people would walk by and, like, I actually had, like, a manager sort of make fun of me, like, complain that I was playing playing a game all day instead of doing my job.

但事实是，我需要这样才能工作。如果只是干听，我会打瞌睡，会完全走神。

Yeah. And it was like, I need this to do my job. Like, I am listening to this stuff. And if I was just listening, I would doze off. I would not I would lose focus.

所以后来我开始用游戏来保持听觉专注。

And I so I started using games then to sort of, like, to to sort of keep my ears open, actually.

我只在一份工作时能打游戏——如果不算现在这份的话。不过我们做节目时其实不打游戏...虽然可以打，也应该打。

I've only ever been able to play video games at one job. I guess if you don't count this one. But we don't play video games when we're doing this. We could. We should.

那样会更有趣

It'd be more interesting

对我们来说，可能不断被要求做你所说的这件事

for us probably constantly asking us to do the thing that you're saying

现在，就是的。

right now, which is Yeah.

为什么你们不直播游戏呢？对我来说，边打游戏边说话几乎是不可能的。是的。就像，我无法一边弹吉他一边说话。好吧，其实我根本不会弹吉他。

Why won't why don't you guys livestream your games? And it's for me, it's that speaking while gaming is almost impossible. Yeah. Like like, I can't I can't play a guitar and and talk. Well, I can't play guitar.

感知的途径也是。

Avenue of perception too.

我只是不需要它。

I just don't need it.

糟糕透了。但是

Terrible. But

我在一家餐厅的办公室工作，负责接听预订电话。那是一家镇上不错的米其林星级餐厅。待会儿我会告诉你具体是哪家。其实是汉堡王。就是在汉堡王。

I I worked at a I worked at a restaurant in their office taking reservations. And so it was a a nice Michelin star restaurant in town. I'll say it where it was afterward. And I Burger King. It was at Burger King.

耶。我当时...没错。就是在...那个厨师叫什么来着，好像是彼得·皮克尔之类的。但我会把Switch带到工作岗位，感觉就像在试探这里的容忍底线。

Yay. I had yeah. And It was at yeah. I was with who was that that the the chef's name, I think, is Peter Pickle or something. But I I would bring my switch to work and like, the I was like, I'm really testing the limits of what I'm allowed to do here, I think.

因为我明目张胆地玩着游戏，而我的工作只是接电话，如果有人打来预订就输入电脑。然后就是打电话确认预订。除此之外，我就干坐在办公桌前几个小时。这份工作根本没有其他内容。

Because this I'm very obviously playing a video game, but my job is to answer the phone and put in a reservation on a computer if somebody calls to make the reservation. Right? And then I'm calling people confirming reservations. But apart from that, I'm sitting at a desk for hours. There's there's not another facet to that job.

所以我想，我必须找点事做，否则我肯定不会再回来上班了。

So I was like, I have to do something or I'm just never gonna come back here.

就像是

Like, it's

就像是被困在那里无所事事。于是我开始带Switch来上班。而且我上的是夜班对吧？餐厅十一点就打烊了。

like it's it's just so then you're just trapped not doing anything. And so I started to bring my switch to work. And, also, I'm working at night. Right? The restaurant closes at eleven.

所以从九点到十一点左右，根本没人会打电话订晚餐。我就悠闲地拿着工资玩《荒野之息》。现在回想那段时光，其实...不，那时候我的生活确实比较空虚。

So from, like, nine to, like, 11:00, nobody's calling to make a dinner reservation. I'm just chilling and getting paid and playing Breath of the Wild. It was like, actually, I think about that time a lot and how No. I I had I had I had less going for me.

你当时过得不错。

You had it good.

但那确实很棒。真的，非常美好。

But that was that was good. Was really, really nice.

很奇怪对吧？那些关于打游戏的记忆竟能如此强烈，让你回想起人生的某个阶段。我...我觉得...不知道该怎么说。当你描述时，我完全懂你的意思——也许不是最好的工作或处境，但晚上9点到11点那段时光，老兄，你是自由的，

Isn't it funny how memories like that can just of playing games can just be so powerful and and and sort of like remind you of a time in your life? I I feel like that's you know, I I don't know. I just felt like when you were describing that, was I know exactly what you mean where you were like, maybe it wasn't the best job or the best situation, but, like, 9PM to 11PM, man, you were free to, you know,

可以做自己的事。虽然得待着以防有人打电话来，对吧？他们不能临时取消我，因为万一有人

do your thing. Hanging out, but I couldn't leave in case somebody called. Right? They couldn't call me off because what if somebody

真的打来呢。

Does call.

确实想打电话什么的。他们不能...不能让别人来处理。是啊，因为别人在做更重要的事。但如果你

Did wanna call or something. They couldn't they can't have somebody else doing that. Yeah. Because doing something more important. But if you

在打拳击，可能就行不通了。不过我觉得可以调整调整方式

were a boxing, maybe that would not fly. But I feel like switch switch things

关掉后，感觉就像你出汗了一样。

off, and it's just like you're sweaty.

如果我... 是啊。如果我把我的跳舞机带到办公室，可能不太合适——很可能不是个好主意。你... 你熟悉那款VR游戏《Superhot》吗？

If I yeah. If I had brought my Dance Dance Revolution rig to the office, probably not probably not a good idea. Play are do you are you familiar with the the VR game Superhot?

嗯，是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

这游戏里你基本上就像约翰·威克，或者说更像《黑客帝国》里的尼奥——你扮演基努·里维斯式的角色，在游戏里躲子弹、扔飞刀之类的。那可不适合在办公室玩。

It's a game where you're like John Wick basically, like, dodging, like or, you know, I guess Neo more like in the you're you're a Keanu Reeves type character in this game, and you're, like, dodging bullets and, like, throwing knives and stuff. That would not be great for Yeah.

对。那是款非常有趣的游戏，我确实玩过。

Right. That was that's a very fun game. I played that one for sure. Yeah.

规则简单但超有趣。本，我们得聊聊这个——你现在在聊天室里的名字显示是'战斗蟾蜍·本'。

Rules. It is so so fun. Ben, we do have to talk about this. Your name on the on the chat right now is Battletoads, Ben.

没错，战斗蟾蜍·本。

Battletoads, Ben. Yes.

我们确实稍微讨论过这个。我问过你最喜欢的战斗蟾蜍是谁，你说是 zit。我觉得这是唯一正确的答案。Wart 很强硬。另一个是谁来着？

And we did talk about this a little bit. I did ask you who your favorite Battletoad is, and you did say zit. And that's the only correct answer, I think. Wart's tough. What's the other one?

我不记得我记得的是 wart。是什么

I don't remember what I remember wart. What's

什么？是 wart rash 吗？

that? Is it wart rash?

Rash Rash。

Rash Rash.

我

I

刚想说其中有个叫 piss 的，但其实不是。不过，如果真有个叫 piss 的，你肯定会买。你大概会想，我猜其中有个是 piss 吧。

was about to say one of them was piss, and it's not piss. But, like, if it was piss, you'd buy it. You're sort of like, I guess one of them is piss.

你才不会买呢，因为你当时还是个孩子。

You would you would not buy it because you were the child.

这些都是皮肤问题。

They're all skin conditions.

而且你和你父母肯定不会给你买一个关于粉刺、皮疹和小便的游戏。

And your and your parents definitely wouldn't buy you a game where it's like zit and rash and piss.

是啊。那样会更吸引人。对，没错。

Yeah. That'll tote much more yeah. Yeah.

他们应该——这是个免费的点子，送给任何做电子游戏的人。只要你给角色起名叫‘小便’，我就买这游戏。不管是什么类型的游戏，我都会买。

They should this is a free idea to anybody making a video game then. As soon as you name your character piss, I'm buying the game. Doesn't matter what kind of game it is. I'm there.

但我当时特别兴奋，当我……你知道，我最近发现了这个节目，成了听众。所以

But I was so excited when when I was you know, I I've I've recently discovered the show and have become a listener. So

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thank you.

我喜欢你们做的事，还有你们做这件事时的快乐。而且你们有很丰富的节目库，我发现你们有一期关于《战斗蟾蜍》的节目，我想应该是这样。

I love what y'all do, and and the joy with which you do it. And I but I but you have, like, a you have, like, a deep you you got a deep catalog, and I discovered that you have a Battletoads episode, I think, or the show has a Battletoads episode.

好的，我会发给你。虽然可能需要付费订阅，但我会想办法传过去

Yeah. I'll send it to you. Think it's behind the paywall, but I'll get that over to

你。

you.

天啊，我超想听这个！因为那款游戏又属于那种...该怎么说呢，我经常跟很多人提起——我记得也跟Roman说过——我小时候父母不让我买任天堂，直到大概12、14岁才允许我玩电子游戏。所以我总是那个跑到别人家嚷嚷'嘿我们去地下室玩红白机吧'的小孩，当别人说'我们出去玩'的时候。

Oh my god. I would love to listen to it because that was one of those games that again, like there was a period of and I should say like, I tell a lot of people I've told a lot of people, I think I've said this to Roman when I was growing up, my parents wouldn't let me have a Nintendo. They wouldn't let me play video games until I was, you know, maybe 12, 14 years old. So I was always I was the kid who would come over to your house and you'd be like, Hey, let's play outside. And I'd be like, Hey, take me to the basement, show me the Nintendo.

要是还能有点零食就更棒了。你就算把我单独留在那儿也行，真的，我只要...求你了，我必须得玩到游戏机。

And like, if you have snacks, that's cool. And if you wanna leave me there, that's also cool. I just need please, I I gotta have it.

于是你的手在他脖子上越掐越紧

So Your hand's gripping tighter and tighter around his neck.

老兄求你了，快告诉我放在哪儿

Show me where it is, man, please.

不过《战斗蟾蜍》算是我早期玩过的经典。最近我查资料才发现，它居然和《双截龙》有关联对吧？好像出过一款合体版本的游戏。

But, like, but Battletoads was one of those early games that I played. And and I recently I I guess I was, like, poking around about this and realized it's it's also, like, connected to Double Dragon. Right? Like, there was a combo version of the game, I think.

有《忍者蛙大战双截龙》这样的游戏，它们联手合作，或者叫《忍者蛙X双截龙》。没错，你说得对，这确实是一款游戏。

There was Battletoads versus Double Dragon where they all teamed up or Battletoads x, Double Dragon. Yes. You're you're not incorrect. This is a game.

确实。而且我记得《忍者蛙》是款超高难度的游戏。我当时大概九岁，那游戏真的太难了，又是那种你永远卡关的类型——有个关卡你要踩着冲浪板，或者更像是跳跃躲避墙壁。对。

Fair. And and and and so, like but what what I remember of Battletoads was it was a super hard game. I mean, I was, you know, I was maybe nine. But like, it it was such a hard game and it was, again, one of those games where you you'd you I never progressed past there was like a there's a level where you're you're like on a surf board or maybe it's more like it's like you're you're you're jumping over the the walls. Yeah.

而且墙壁会在出现前闪烁半秒钟。

And the walls flash for like a half second before they arrive on screen.

没错。这游戏给我留下了深刻的感官记忆，我至今还记得手指上的多力多滋粉末和拼命通关时的汗水。不确定最终是否通关了，但我超爱那游戏，它太棒了。

Yes. Yeah. And and I just that's one of those games that has like a sense memory for me where I just, I can remember the Doritos dust on my fingertips and the sweat of, like, trying to get past that level. And I don't know if I ever did, but I I loved that game. It was a great game.

说到父母不让玩游戏，让我想起游戏圈里小有名气的《远侧》漫画，九十年代（或八十年代末）的。画里小孩打游戏，父母却幻想着游戏职业。笑点在于漫画讽刺'这永远不可能'——如今靠打游戏能赚大钱，这笑话反而失效了。

It's it's funny that talking about your parents not letting you play video games reminds me of a very sort of semi famous in gaming circles, Far Side comic from the nineties, or, like, maybe it was late eighties, where it's a kid playing video games, and the parents are daydreaming of a career in video games. And the joke is that'll never happen because like, that's what the far side is saying is, oh, that'll never happen. These guys are all idiots. And now you can make so much money Yeah. Playing video games that the comic doesn't make sense Yeah.

这个笑话现在不成立了。

You can make a joke doesn't work.

现在打游戏不仅能赚大钱，还能以特殊方式影响政治。确实，这一切都很有意思。

You can make a lot of money. You can affect politics in a very particular way. Yeah. It's all very interesting. Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

有时候太有趣了。

Sometimes too interesting.

是啊，有点太有趣了。真的，大家都冷静一下。停下，真的。对。

Yeah. It's a little too interesting. Like, actually, everybody calm down. Stop, actually. Yeah.

好吧，各位，在送你们离开之前，我我我不确定这是否算剧透或可能剧透，但我有个关于电子游戏及其对社会整体影响的问题。

Well, guys, before we get you out of here, I guess I I I don't I don't know if this is necessarily spoiling or could spoil, but I have a I I guess another question just about video games and their impact on society at large.

嗯。

Yeah.

好还是坏？

Good or bad?

一个字回答。再见。

One word answer. Bye.

开个玩笑。

Just kidding.

不，这么说吧，我有一对八岁的双胞胎。我儿子八岁，他非常喜欢《我的世界》。

No, think like well, I would say is so I have twins who are eight years old. My son is eight years old. He loves Minecraft.

是啊。

Yeah.

他还特别喜欢《哈利波特》游戏。我对...该怎么说呢，我对《哈利波特》的作者感情复杂，但我儿子就是爱玩那款游戏。

He loves he he loves the Harry Potter game. I I have mixed feelings about I don't know. Have mixed feelings about the creator of Harry Potter but my son loves that game.

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为像《龙与地下城》这类游戏——它们启发了许多电子游戏——确实能教会你：第一解决问题，第二在一个安全空间里反复试错。尤其是《我的世界》这类游戏，能极大激发创造力。而且相对而言，游戏其实算廉价娱乐，现在无论是游玩还是开发都更普及了——如今搭建游戏也更容易了。

I I think that games like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, which, you know, inspired a lot of video games, they do teach you to, number one solve problems and number two, like have a safe space to try to solve problems and fail and try again. And I think that they can lead you especially in the case of things like Minecraft, they can lead you to be really creative, right? I also think that they are, you know, I mean, this is gonna maybe sound ridiculous to some of your listeners because who who, you know, whoever bought the latest, you know, PS five Pro or whatever. But like, they are also like relatively cheap. Like you can access games relatively cheaply and I think having an interactive form of entertainment that you can that is, you know, relatively democratized both in terms of playing but also in terms of building now, like the fact that you can build games more easily.

这是好事。但问题出在当我们放任科技公司无需为煽动仇恨等行为承担后果时——虽然游戏公司在这方面已有所改进，或许我不该用'监管'这个词，这确实很复杂。

That's a good thing. I think where it gets problematic is when we, you know, I think when we allow any sort of tech company to not have any kind of consequences for, you know, whatever, like fomenting hate or, you know, and I think game companies have gotten better at policing this stuff, guess, and you know, maybe I shouldn't even use the word policing, I think it's complicated.

不，确实如此，是的。

No, for sure, yeah.

但我觉得，你知道，它可能会让你上瘾，那是个危险地带，所以限制使用时间对我来说很重要。不过说到底，我们使用的很多技术都像这样，既可能是积极的，也可能是消极的，它只是个工具，一种技术，关键在于我们要有意识地、谨慎地、深思熟虑且充满关怀地使用它，以及共同使用它的方式。

But I think like, you know, it can be addicting to you and like that's a dangerous zone and so you know, limiting your time I think is for me that's an important thing but ultimately it's like so much of the technology we use it can be a positive thing, it can be a negative thing, it's just a tool and it's a technology and we just have to be intentional and careful and thoughtful and caring in the way that we use it and in the way that we use it together.

哇。这是本节目有史以来最有深度的一句话。真的。

Wow. That is the most thoughtful thing ever said on this show. Yeah. Truly.

公共广播嘛，你能指望什么呢？

Public radio. What are you gonna do?

这是... 我不确定。但我确实以为其中一只青蛙真的叫'尿尿'。对，没错。

Is this yeah. I don't know. I did I did think one of the frogs was called piss, really. Yeah. Exactly.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们...我最喜欢的芭蕾舞是'坐'。谢谢。

We And my favorite balletto is zit. Thank you.

同一个节目里我们还说过，那些马桶看起来像是能喝的水。

Same show where we're like, toilets look like you should drink them.

但我很好奇，比如，罗曼，你怎么看？我感觉哦，

But I'm curious, like, Roman, what do you think? I feel like Oh,

我觉得是好的。我不确定。我其实没有...我...我...我的感受和你完全一致，但我觉得天平更倾向于好的一面。而且我认为你无法论证没有电子游戏的世界会更好还是更糟。你只能争论。

I think good. I don't know. I don't really have I don't I I I feel exactly the same as as you, but I think the dial is more towards good. I also just think that you can't sort of argue that the world be a better or worse place without video games. You just could argue.

这只会...没有电子游戏的世界将截然不同

It's just gonna it would be a completely different world without

是啊。

Yeah.

而这基本上就是...就是问题的终点了。懂吗？它们占据了重要地位。除此之外，就像你提到的，电子游戏确实能创造职业机会——比如我们现在能做播客就是证明。它训练你用适合现代世界的方式思考，无论是解决问题、快速反应、手眼协调，还是'如果-那么'式的复杂决策。我觉得它们很棒。

And and that's really the the sort of the sort of the end of it. You know? Like, it's just like, they're a huge part. And I think that in addition to, you know, you mentioning, like, like, there actually are, you know, careers in video games as evidenced by, like, us being on a podcast now is, like, it kinda trains you to think in ways that, you know, are are perfect for the modern world in terms of problem solving, in terms of, you know, just, like, quick thinking and dexterity and the sort of idea of if then, you know, decisions and complex decisions. And I, you know, I I think they're great.

我...我...我不知道。我很难判断...我认为它们可能引发问题的社交属性，和社交媒体、八卦小报的问题根源是一样的。所有事物都...

I I I I I I don't know. I have a hard time thinking. I do think that the social aspect of them that can sort of cause issues is the same social aspect that makes social media a problem, that makes, you know Yeah. Tabloids a problem. Like, everything.

是的。

It's Yeah.

当一群人聚集在一起时，他们可能为了邪恶的目的联合，同样也可能为了崇高的目标。这就是其中的一部分。

When you get a bunch of people together, they can get together for nefarious ends as as well as, you know, great ends. And so that's just part of it all.

好的，各位，这次谈话我真的很愉快。非常感谢你们今天能和我们在一起。不如你们再快速宣传一下节目，然后我们就放你们走。

Well, guys, that was I I really enjoyed talking to you guys. Thank you so much for for being here with us today. Why don't you guys plug the show again real quick, and then we'll get you out of here.

当然。这个六集系列叫做《隐藏关卡》，讲述电子游戏如何影响世界，是我的播客《99%隐形》和本·布洛克·约翰逊的播客《无尽线索》联合制作的，将于10月7日全面上线。

Sure. The six part series is called Hidden Levels. It's about how video games affect the world, and it's a coproduction of 99% Invisible, which is my podcast, and Endless Thread, which is Ben Brock Johnson's podcast, and it's gonna come out wide on October 7.

对。希望大家收听。告诉我们我们搞错了多少。开个玩笑。

Yeah. We hope you'll listen. Let us know how much how much we got wrong. Just kidding.

各位，非常感谢。

Guys, thanks so much.

是的。谢谢

Yeah. Thank

你。我真的很感激。

you. I really appreciate it.

是的。谢谢大家。能和你们在一起真是太棒了。

Yeah. Thanks, y'all. It was great to be with you.

你可以在任何收听播客的地方找到《Get Played》，节目备注里也有链接。周二我们将带来《隐藏关卡》的第一集，敬请期待。

You can find Get Played wherever you get podcasts, and there's a link in the show notes. We'll see you Tuesday for episode one of hidden levels.

哇哦。哇哦。

Woah. Woah.