谋杀之地

这里是《99%隐形》节目。

This is 99% Invisible.

我是罗曼·马尔斯。

I'm Roman Mars.

卡罗琳·弗雷泽在华盛顿州美丽的默瑟岛长大。

Caroline Fraser grew up on the beautiful Mercer Island in Washington state.

但尽管风景看似宁静，她对这片地区的记忆却长期被大量难以解释的死亡事件所困扰。

But despite the seemingly peaceful landscape, her memories of the area were long haunted by an inexplicable amount of death.

七十年代卡罗琳十几岁时，臭名昭著的连环杀手泰德·邦迪在离她家不远的地方犯下了首批确认的谋杀案。

In the nineteen seventies, when Caroline was a teenager, the infamous serial killer Ted Bundy committed his first confirmed murders not far from where Caroline lived.

还有住在街尾的那个男人，他把自己的房子连同家人一起炸毁了。

Then there was the man who lived down the street who blew up his house with his family inside.

我的意思是，这完全是件恐怖又无法解释的事，我想它一直萦绕在我心头就是因为我不理解。

I mean, it was just this this horrific and inexplicable thing, which I think just stayed with me because I didn't understand it.

随后的岁月里，卡罗琳会听闻更多死亡事件，有些是谋杀和自杀，还有些是因在设计不佳的默瑟岛大桥上驾车发生车祸所致。

Over the following years, Caroline would learn of more deaths, some by murder and suicide, others from car accidents while driving on the poorly designed Mercer Island Bridge.

对卡罗琳来说，仿佛有一片乌云笼罩在她所处的世界角落。

To Caroline, it felt as if there was a dark cloud looming above her corner of the world.

事实上，确实如此。

And in fact, there was.

这片乌云来自华盛顿州塔科马市外的一个巨大烟囱，由铅、砷和石棉构成。

The cloud was coming from a giant smokestack just outside of Tacoma, Washington, and it was made up of lead, arsenic, and asbestos.

七八十年代是美国重金属采矿和冶炼的鼎盛时期。

The seventies and eighties were the heyday of the mining and smelting of heavy metals in America.

铜、铅、锌等金属在冶炼过程中向空气中释放了大量有毒烟雾。

Metals like copper, lead, and zinc, which all released huge amounts of toxic fumes into the air.

同一时期还出现了另一个可怕趋势——连环杀人案数量激增。

The same time period saw another awful trend, a massive spike in serial killing.

这两段历史看似毫无关联，但卡罗琳开始探寻环境污染与连环杀人之间是否存在某种联系。

These are two seemingly unrelated histories, but Caroline set out on a quest to see if there was some kind of connection here between environmental pollution and serial killing.

她记得曾在当地报纸上看到一篇特定文章，给她留下了挥之不去的疑虑。

She remembers seeing a specific article in a local paper that gave her this nagging feeling.

它基本上就像一本百科全书，收录了所有与西雅图或该地区有关的连环杀手。

And it was basically a kind of encyclopedia of all the serial killers who were associated with Seattle or the the region.

数量如此之多，我当时就想，哇。

And there were so many, and I just thought, wow.

这真的很奇怪。

That's that's really bizarre.

你知道吗？

You know?

这份名单长得没完没了。

Just a list that just went on and on.

它迫切需要某种解释。

It just cried out for some kind of explanation.

在她的新书《连环杀手时代的犯罪与嗜血》中，卡罗琳提出，二十世纪七八十年代的连环杀手浪潮可能与冶炼业的环境污染有关，太平洋西北地区的有毒烟雾可能催生了一代连环杀手。

In her new book, Crime and Bloodlust in a Time of Serial Killers, Caroline argues that the wave of serial killing in the nineteen seventies and eighties might be related to the smelting industry's environmental pollution and that all those toxic fumes in the Pacific Northwest possibly fueled a generation of serial killers.

卡罗琳写过很多不同主题的书。

Caroline has written books about a lot of different things.

她的第一本书是关于基督教科学教会创始人的传记，而她获得普利策奖的作品《草原烈火》则讲述了儿童文学系列《草原上的小木屋》作者劳拉·英格尔斯·怀尔德的故事。

Her first book was a biography of the woman who founded the Christian Science Church, and her Pulitzer Prize winning book, Prairie Fires, was about Laura Ingalls Wilder, the author who wrote the children's book series, Little House on the Prairie.

包括《蚂蚁玛蒂尔达》在内的所有这些书籍都有一个共同点——它们实际上都在探讨环境主题。

One thing that all these books, including Myrtle Ant, have in common is that they're all actually about the environment.

有人说我是在用'特洛伊木马'策略——借连环杀手话题来兜售环境故事，我觉得这种说法可能有点过于程式化了。

People have used the term Trojan horse, you know, with you know, that I'm using serial killers to to sell environmental stories, which I think is maybe a little too programmatic or something.

但这些问题确实会自然浮现在我脑海，因为我对环境遭受的破坏、人类的所作所为以及我们如何分割自然特别敏感。

But these things just they do occur to me just because I think I'm just sort of hyperaware of what has happened to the environment, what we've done to it, how we've carved it up.

我们总以为自己创造的环境很安全，但我认为事实绝非如此。

You know, we think that we're safe in the environments that we have created when I think that's not true at all.

《谋杀之地》这本书里有一群轮番登场的反派角色。

Murderland is a book with a rotating cast of villains.

首先是Asarco公司——这家企业自19世纪末就在全国运营巨型烟囱。

There's Asarco, the company that's operated giant smokestacks across the country since the late eighteen hundreds.

还有致命的默瑟岛浮桥及其背后的工程师们。

There's the deadly Mercer Island floating bridge and the engineers behind it.

当然，还有西北太平洋地区的连环杀手们。

And then, of course, there are the serial killers of the Pacific Northwest.

这本书融合了真实犯罪回忆录与环境历史，交织在一起，同时还包含许多引人入胜的设计元素，所以我邀请她来工作室与我对话。

The book is a blend of true crime memoir and environmental history, all woven together, And it also features a lot of intriguing design elements, so I invited her into the studio to talk with me.

卡罗琳，这本书让我印象深刻的一点是，虽然我们都认为自己是个人故事的主角，但你开始研究自己成长的地方时，发现它其实在某种程度上很特别。

So, Caroline, one of the things that struck me about this book is that, you know, I think all of us are main characters of our own story, but it struck me, you know, you began to research this place that you're from, and in many ways, discovered that it actually is kind of special.

就像，它是某种与众不同且令人不安现象的中心，这种差异可以归因于人为的设计决策，比如阿萨科冶炼厂选址的决定、桥梁设计的选择等等。

Like, it's the center of something that is different and alarming, and that difference can be attributed to design decisions made by people, like decisions about where the Asarco smelter is placed and decisions about the design of the bridge and all that sort of stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

我们稍后会谈到连环杀手，我保证——如果听众是冲着这个话题来的。

And so we'll get to the serial killers, I I promise, if people are tuning in for serial killer talk.

但首先我想聊聊地图，因为你似乎经常用地图来理清这些不同事物间的关联。

But first, I wanted to talk about maps because you seem to use maps a lot to make sense of how all these different things fit together.

事实上，你的书以发现一幅特定地图开篇，正是这幅地图让你开始注意到阿萨科公司对环境的影响与连环杀人案之间的关联。

And in fact, your book opens with the discovery of a specific map, and this is a map that actually led you to start seeing this connection between Osarco's impact on the environment and serial killing.

那么，跟我说说这张地图吧。

So tell me about this map.

是的。

Yes.

而且，奥萨科地图在很多方面确实启发了这本书的创作。

And and the Osarco map was something that really inspired this book in a lot of ways.

这张地图是由华盛顿州生态部门发布的。

The the map is put out by the Department of Ecology in Washington State.

他们公布了这个GIS地图，显示了塔科马一家冶炼厂造成的整个污染羽流，我在书中将其与多个事件联系起来。

They published this GIS map that showed the whole plume of pollution that was caused by a smelter in Tacoma, which I relate to various incidents in the book.

那个污染羽流地图让我非常着迷。

And that plume map is so fascinating to me.

就在我看到它的那一刻，我被它展现的可能性震撼到了，因为你可以在西雅图地区或塔科马地区输入你的地址或任何地址，查看该地可能从塔科马铅冶炼厂的烟囱接收了多少污染。

And just the minute that I saw it, I just was kind of overwhelmed by the possibilities that it presented because you can plug in your address or any address in the Seattle area, Tacoma area, and see how much pollution it may have received from the smokestack, at the lead smelter in Tacoma.

那么，你最初是怎么知道萨科公司并发现这个GIS地图的呢？

And so how did you first learn of the company of Sarco and discover this GIS map?

比如，是否有某个瞬间让你开始为这本书展开研究的？

Like, was there this, like, moment that led you down the path of research for this book?

是的。

Yeah.

确实有一个转折点，当时我和丈夫决定考虑在西北部购置一些房产，因为我的家人还在那边。

There definitely was a moment which occurred because my husband and I decided that, you know, we wanted to maybe look for some property up in the Northwest because I still have family up there.

那大概是在2014年左右。

And this was around fourteen.

我们去看了一些地块，其中一块位于瓦逊岛，那是普吉特海湾中的一个岛屿，与西雅图西区隔海相望。

We went up there to look at some pieces of property, and one of these pieces was on Vashon Island, which is an island in Puget Sound just across from West Seattle.

当时有则房产广告提到——那时我对冶炼厂的事还一无所知。

And one of the real estate ads said and this is at a point where I knew nothing about the smelter.

我对任何污染情况都毫不知情。

I knew nothing about any of the pollution.

那则房产广告写着：需进行砷污染治理。

The real estate ad said, arsenic remediation necessary.

我看到这句话时心想，瓦雄岛上到底发生了什么才会导致砷污染严重到需要治理的地步？

And I read that, and I thought, what the what could possibly have caused enough arsenic on Vashon Island that it needed to be remediated?

因为我对瓦雄岛很熟悉，那是个美丽的乡村风格岛屿，我小时候常去那里，因为我妈妈有个朋友在那儿有座漂亮的花园，我们还吃过她种的草莓。

Because I was familiar with Vashon, which is a beautiful kinda rural island where, you know, we used to go when I was a kid because my mom had a friend there who had a beautiful garden, and we ate strawberries out of her garden.

这次看房后，我查了关于砷污染的资料。

After this visit, I looked up the arsenic.

我试图找出原因，当然很快就发现了与Asarco公司有关的记载，因为巴尚地区正是受其烟囱排放物严重污染的区域之一，毕竟它就隔水相望。

I was trying to figure out what caused this and, of course, immediately found references to Asarco because Bashan was one of the areas that was heavily slimed by by the stuff that was coming out of the smokestack because it was right across the water.

嗯。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以在《谋杀之地》中，你追溯了Asarco这家公司的兴衰史。

So in murderland, you trace the rise and fall of this company, Asarco.

除了这条时间线和地理线索外，书中还穿插了你个人的生活记忆、默瑟岛大桥的兴衰，并详细描写了多位连环杀手的个人经历和犯罪活动。

And on top of that timeline and geography, the book weaves in and out stories from your own life and memory and the rise and fall of the Mercer Island Bridge, and you write in great detail about the personal histories and activities of various serial killers.

你曾经在一次采访中提到，你的办公室里有个标着'连环杀手'的盒子。

You you once gave this interview where you said that you had a box in your office labeled serial killers.

那么，你对连环杀手的兴趣是从什么时候开始的？

Like, how long have serial killers been an interest of yours?

具体来说，你觉得这种兴趣是从哪里萌生的？

Like like, where do you where do you think that began for you?

哦，我清楚地记得是什么时候开始的。

Oh, I know exactly when it began.

那是在1974年7月，当时有两名女性从萨马米什湖边的海滩失踪，那里紧邻华盛顿湖。

It began, you know, in July 1974 when two women disappeared from a beach at Lake Sammamish, which is right next to Lake Washington.

两地相距只有几英里。

It's only a few miles away.

她们是泰德·邦迪的受害者，我认为正是因为她们同时失踪，才让人们意识到西雅图及周边城市发生的女性连环失踪案都是有关联的。

And they were the two victims of Ted Bundy who really, I think, because they disappeared at the same time, their disappearances made it clear that this sporadic series of abductions of women that had been taking place in Seattle and other cities nearby were all tied together.

要知道在那个年代，'连环杀手'这个概念还没有真正形成。

And I think you have to realize that the whole phenomenon of serial killers had not really gelled at that point.

我是说，对于那些在FBI从事侧写项目的人来说，这个概念可能已经成型了。

I mean, it may have gelled for people in the FBI who were working on a, you know, profiling program.

但对普通大众而言，我们当时根本不知道世界上还存在这种事情。

But for the general public, we just weren't really aware that that was something that even existed.

所以想到有人从宿舍或街头掳走女性让她们凭空消失，这种想法极其怪异且恐怖。

And so the the idea that there was somebody out there plucking women out of their dorm rooms or their you know, off of streets and they just vanished was just profoundly strange and frightening.

因此我认为，正是在那一刻我开始意识到这类犯罪问题，尤其是它与太平洋西北地区的关联。

And so that, I think, was the moment when I became aware of the whole issue of of this kind of crime, especially its connection to the Pacific Northwest.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得你书的封面非常震撼。

I found the cover of your book really striking.

背景是Asarco冶炼厂，前景是泰德·邦迪的脸，两幅图像相互交融。

You have this Asarco smelting plant in the background and Ted Bundy's face in the foreground, and the images kind of blend into each other.

而且泰德·邦迪的头像还化作了从他身后烟囱冒出的污染云。

And Ted Bundy's head is also the cloud of pollution coming out of the smokestack behind him.

这是对你书中布局方式的绝佳视觉呈现，你知道的，将这些历史层层叠加，以指出它们之间可能的关联。

It's this great visual representation for the way you lay out the book, you know, sort of overlapping these histories onto each other to point out how they might be connected.

那么，你个人是从什么时候开始注意到连环杀人这类暴力与环境暴力之间存在联系的？

So at what point did you personally start to see a connection between the serial killing type of violence and the kind of environmental violence?

我想大概是在我开始了解铅与犯罪之间关联的时候。

I think it was around the time that I began to learn about the connection between lead and crime.

铅与暴力行为增加有关联。

Lead is associated with increased violence.

如果你在童年时期接触过铅，可能在二十年后，作为年轻人时更容易出现青少年犯罪倾向、攻击性或冲动行为。

If you're exposed to it as a as a child, you may, you know, twenty years later, as a young person, more inclined to juvenile delinquency or to aggression or to impulsivity.

当我了解到这一点，同时得知塔科马市冶炼厂的存在时，我脑海中突然闪过一个念头：泰德·邦迪和加里·里奇韦这两位著名连环杀手，他们都成长于塔科马地区。

And when I learned about that and around the same time learned about the presence of the smelter in Tacoma, these little light bulbs went off in my head connecting the fact that a couple of these very notable serial killers, namely Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgeway, they both grew up in the Tacoma area.

我当时就想，哇。

And I thought, wow.

这真是个有趣的巧合。

That's that's an interesting coincidence.

我在想这其中是否有什么原因。

I wonder if there's could be any reason for that.

我并不真的认为我能证明这些人之所以犯下那些罪行是因为他们在塔科马地区长大。

I didn't really think that I could prove that, you know, these men did what they did because they grew up where they were in in the Tacoma region.

但我只是觉得这是个非常有趣的巧合，值得深入探究。

But I just thought it was a a really interesting coincidence that was ripe for for exploration.

让我们进一步探讨这个联系。

Let's explore this connection a little bit more.

首先，正如你所说，铅犯罪理论的核心观点是童年早期的铅暴露会导致大脑发育改变或受阻，进而引发一系列后果，比如冲动控制能力差或更具攻击性。

So first of all, the lead crime theory, like you said, it centers around this idea that lead exposure in early childhood can lead to altered or stunted brain development, which in turn can lead to a whole host of things like a lack of impulse control or increased aggression.

而你的书中关于连环杀手的观点正是基于这个现有的铅犯罪理论。

And the point your book is making about serial killing builds on this existing lead crime theory.

记得以前铅无处不在。

Like, you know, I remember a time when lead was everywhere.

它存在于所有东西里，比如汽油、油漆和儿童玩具。

It was in everything, like gasoline and paint and kids' toys.

因此我想铅中毒在当时也是无处不在的。

And so I imagine lead toxicity was everywhere too.

所以我很好奇为什么你认为太平洋西北地区特别在七八十年代会出现这么多连环杀手。

So I'm wondering why you think the Pacific Northwest specifically had this crop of serial killers in the seventies and eighties.

是的。

Yeah.

确实，我们这些在四十年代到八十年代之间长大的人都接触了比正常量更多的铅，因为含铅汽油的缘故。

Well, it is true that all of us who grew up between the, you know, nineteen forties and the nineteen eighties were exposed to more lead than we should have been exposed to because of leaded gas.

但美国某些地区和城市设有冶炼厂或其他工业设施，它们向大气排放了更多铅和其他污染物。

But there were certain parts of the country and certain cities where you had smelters or other industrial plants that were emitting lots more lead into the atmosphere and other pollutants.

塔科马冶炼厂臭名昭著的地方在于它不仅排放了大量铅颗粒物，还排放了砷。

The notorious thing about the Tacoma smelter was that it was releasing extraordinary amounts of lead particulates, but it was also releasing arsenic.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它们在一个基本上是城市区域的地方排放了成千上万吨这类物质。

They're emitting, you know, thousands of of tons of this stuff in a essentially an urban area.

这些铅和砷大量降落在塔科马市，尤其是北塔科马社区和名为Skyline的社区，年轻的泰德·邦迪就在那里长大，他的房子不仅接收来自冶炼厂的铅污染，还紧邻车流量极大的16号高速公路。

And a lot of this lead and arsenic were falling on Tacoma, on neighborhood, especially the neighborhoods of North Tacoma and this neighborhood called Skyline, which is where young Ted Bundy is growing up in a house that is not only receiving lead from the smelter, but also it's right next to Highway 16, which is a a heavily traveled Mhmm.

高速公路。

Highway.

所以他遭受着双重污染。

And so he's getting it coming and going.

加里·里奇韦也是如此，他住在几条高速公路附近，距离西塔克机场仅几英里。

So is Gary Ridgeway, who lives near a couple of highways and just a couple miles east of Sea Tac Airport.

当然，当时的飞机喷气燃料也使用的是含铅汽油。

And, of course, airplanes are also jets are also flying on leaded fuel at that time.

我越是深入研究，就越发现铅在某些地区和城市的普遍存在，这让我愈发好奇其潜在影响。

So the more I looked into this, the more I was finding out about lead and how prevalent it was in certain parts of the country, in certain cities, the more I became interested in what that might suggest.

好的。

Okay.

所以所有这些环境因素都相当复杂。

So all these environmental factors are so complicated.

你如何开始梳理出哪些因素导致了问题，哪些没有？

How do you begin to tease apart what is causing a problem and what isn't?

因为，你知道，你引用了大量研究表明，成为连环杀手的人往往经历过忽视和虐待。

Because, you know, there's a ton of research that you cite that people who become serial killers often experience neglect and abuse.

他们通常来自经济实力薄弱的社区，而这些地方也往往是工厂选址之处，因为人们没有经济能力去投诉。

They often come from communities with little economic power, and those are also the places where factories are often built because people don't have the economic power to complain about them.

那么你如何开始理清这种复杂性的头绪呢？

So how do you begin to sort of, like, make sense of the complexity of the thing?

你是如何描绘出你所呈现的画面？

How how do you paint the picture that you're painting?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为首先必须承认，有一系列问题、缺陷或灾难可能发生在一个人身上，导致他们走上那条路。

I think that for starters, you do have to acknowledge that there's a whole host of problems or deficits or disasters that can happen to a person that lead them down that path.

不仅仅是铅暴露，还可能有遗传因素。

It's not just lead exposure, but there could be genetic factors.

目前已发现某些可能与攻击性增强相关的基因。

There are now certain genes that may be associated with increased aggression.

正如你所说，家庭暴力、家庭虐待、性虐待、头部创伤等因素都存在。

There's, as you say, violence in the home, domestic abuse, sexual abuse, head trauma.

所以，是的，这其中涉及许多许多因素。

So, yes, there are many, many things that go into this.

我认为吸引我的是讲述我所了解的关于Osarco Asarco公司行为的事实。嗯。

And I think that what appealed to me was telling the facts that I knew about how Osarco Asarco, behaved Mhmm.

追溯他们一贯隐瞒真相的历史，随着社区对健康影响的担忧日益加剧——哮喘等各种呼吸系统问题。

To follow their history of lying about what they were doing, you know, as communities became more and more concerned about the health effects that they were seeing, you know, asthma, you know, all kinds of respiratory problems.

宠物不断死亡。

Pets were dying.

你知道，他们无法在社区种植任何东西，因为砷污染会杀死植物。

You know, they couldn't grow things in their neighborhoods because they're being killed by arsenic.

整个六十年代到七十年代，人们越来越意识到这些工业排放物极其危险，但民众却难以获取真实信息来判断我们究竟该有多担忧。

There just was an increasing sense throughout the sixties and into the seventies that these industrial plumes were really dangerous, and people were really struggling to try and get ahold of the facts about how worried should we be.

然而这些公司却极其不诚实。

And yet the companies were incredibly dishonest.

甚至他们私下进行的研究，也对公众隐瞒。

And even the research that they were doing, behind the scenes, they were keeping from the public.

因此，这些公司的行为最终让我觉得在某种程度上反映了连环杀手的行径，我认为这一点很重要，值得关注。

So the behavior of the companies eventually came to me to sort of mirror the behavior of the serial killers in a way that I thought was important and worth paying attention to.

是啊。

Yeah.

我的意思是，当我读到这部分时最令人着迷的是，这里展示了许多心理变态行为，而且不仅仅是连环杀手。

I mean, that's the thing that's so fascinating when when I read it is, like, there's lots of psychopathy on display, and it's not just serial killers.

这确实令人震惊。

It's astonishing.

这些公司为了保护自己、保护他们的机构，真的会不择手段。

It really is the lengths to which these companies would go to protect themselves, protect their institutions.

他们实际上确实讨论过要赔偿那些铅中毒儿童的家庭多少钱。

They actually did, you know, have conversations about how much they were gonna have to pay the families of the kids who were lead poisoned.

他们甚至将可能因诉讼而需要支付的赔偿金与他们将获得的利润进行了比较。

And and they were comparing those payouts that they might have to make as a result of lawsuits to the amount of profit that they were gonna make.

他们丝毫没有质疑自己的行为。

They weren't questioning their behavior in any way.

他们只是简单地说，好吧，如果每个孩子要花费我们1100万美元，我们仍然可以盈利。

They were just simply saying, well, you know, if it costs us $11,000,000 per kid, we can still make a profit.

接下来，我们将进一步讨论致命的基础设施，以及默瑟岛浮桥如何与卡罗琳关于连环杀手的书产生关联。

Coming up, we'll talk more about deadly infrastructure and how the Mercer Island Floating Bridge fits into Caroline's book about serial killers.

我是主持人，再次与卡罗琳·弗雷泽连线。

I'm back with Caroline Fraser.

那么卡罗琳，我们已经讨论了Asarco公司及其烟囱排放的有毒物质。

So Caroline, we've talked about Asarco and how its smokestacks are releasing all these toxins.

我们谈到了连环杀手，你在书中写到他们中有许多人在环境毒性较高的社区长大。

We talked about serial killers, and you write about how many of them grew up in neighborhoods with higher environmental toxicity.

还有一件事我想讨论一下。

And there's something else I wanna talk about.

你的书中运用了许多反复出现的隐喻和主题，我最喜欢的是关于一座桥的描写。

You have many recurring metaphors and themes in your book, and my favorite is a bridge.

这座桥叫做默瑟岛浮桥。

It's called the Mercer Island Floating Bridge.

我没想到一座桥会在你关于连环杀手的书中占据如此重要的位置。

I did not expect a bridge, and it's designed to be featured so heavily in your book about serial killers.

但在某种程度上，你将这座桥塑造成了一种连环杀手，因为有许多人在驾车通过时丧生。

But in a way, you present the bridge as a kind of serial killer because of how many people died while driving across it.

还有一点很有趣的是，这是一座非常特别的桥。

What's also interesting is that it's a very unusual bridge.

它是座浮桥。

It's a floating bridge.

就像漂浮在水面上的浮筒。

It's like a pontoon that's on the water.

开车经过时感觉就像在充气城堡的地板上行驶。

It's like driving over the floor of a bouncy house.

这确实是非常奇特的事物。

It's it's a very peculiar thing.

是的。

Yes.

而且，确实如此。

And, yes, it is.

今天早上我查了世界上有多少座浮桥，结果只有大约20座。

It's it's I looked up this morning how many floating bridges there were in the world, and there's only, like, 20.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且其中大部分都在华盛顿州。

And the majority of them are in Washington state.

那么你为什么要把这座桥写进书里呢？

So why did you include the bridge in your book?

它对你有何特殊意义？

Like, what is its significance to you?

这座桥对我来说成为了工程失误和工程师傲慢的隐喻，因为他们不满足于仅仅建造一座浮桥，还引入了这个被称为'凸起'的设计元素。

The bridge became a kind of metaphor for me of of engineering mistakes and the hubris of engineers because they weren't satisfied just to have a floating bridge, they introduced this element into it, which was always called the bulge.

确实如此。

So right.

你谈到了凸起和另一个特点——可逆车道，作为这座桥两个独特且危险的设计元素。

You talk about the bulge and this other feature, the reversible lane, as these two, like, uniquely dangerous design elements of this bridge.

在桥中央设计凸起的初衷是为了让部分桥面能够开合，以便船只通行。

The idea behind having a bulge in the middle of the bridge is to allow, you know, part of the bridge to open and close to make it, you know, to make it possible for boat traffic to go through.

但这同时也意味着驾驶员必须以极高速度通过这个弯曲的凸起部分，导致了许多碰撞事故。

But it also meant that drivers had to navigate this curve of the bulge at really high speeds, and it caused a lot of collisions.

而可逆车道本意是通过灯光系统改变车流方向，这也引发了许多事故。

And then the reversible lane was meant so that the traffic could change directions based on, you know, system of lights, and and that also caused a lot of accidents.

可以说，这是在那里驾驶时整个体验中最令人恐惧的部分。

I mean, it was kind of a terrifying aspect of the whole experience of driving there.

当时桥上事故频发，人们不断投诉，但问题始终没有得到真正解决。

And so there's all these accidents on the bridge at this time, and people are complaining, but nothing is really done.

二十多年来毫无进展，因为这座桥深陷各种诉讼之中，关于如何应对这些问题。

Nothing really happens for twenty something years because the bridge was mired in all this litigation, about how to cope with these issues.

我特别喜欢这座桥的隐喻，一方面它代表着工程奇迹。

I I love the metaphor of the bridge because on the one hand, the bridge represents this engineering marvel.

我的意思是，在建造时，这座桥曾是世界上最大的浮动结构。

I mean, at at the time it was built, the bridge was the largest floating structure to exist.

这是一项浩大的工程。

It was this massive undertaking.

而另一方面，桥梁设计中存在太多人为错误，导致了所有这些死亡事故，也最终导致了桥梁的毁灭。

And on the other hand, there was so much human error in the design of the bridge that led to all these fatalities and also to the bridge's eventual destruction.

这某种程度上类似于你详细描述的奥斯库公司对烟囱周边社区造成损害却缺乏问责的情况。

I mean, it it's similar in a way to how you detail Osarco's lack of accountability for the damage they caused to the neighborhood surrounding the smokestacks.

是的。

Yeah.

在你的书中，你详细记录了那些因这座桥而丧生的受害者，就像你记录泰德·邦迪的受害者一样。

And in your book, you you detail the victims who died at the hands of the bridge, much like you you, you know, you do the victims of Ted Bundy.

我是说，对于这两者，都有一种，嗯，某种程度上的漠视态度。

I mean, for both of them, there's a kind of, like, kinda dismissiveness.

就像，人们并没有真正把这些死亡事件与某个单一原因联系起来。

Like, people weren't really connecting all these deaths to to any one cause.

是啊。

Yeah.

那种态度，那种对这些可怕事故耸耸肩的无所谓态度，真的让我很震惊，你知道，在报纸报道中读到这些时。这激怒了《默瑟岛记者报》的编辑，以至于她开始把这些可怕车祸的照片刊登在报纸头版，这就是为什么这份报纸在我家被禁的原因。

That attitude, the sort of, you know, shrugging of the shoulders about these, you know, terrible accidents, it was really striking to me, you know, to read about this in the newspaper accounts, and it inflamed the the editor of the Mercer Island reporter such that she began featuring photographs of these terrible crashes on the cover of the newspaper, which is why the newspaper got banned in my house.

所以我想，这正是让那些事故深植我脑海的原因之一。

So that, I think, is one of the things that implanted those accidents in my mind.

事实上我们不能谈论它们，这反而让我对它们更感兴趣。

The fact that we couldn't talk about them made them all the more interesting to me.

直到今天，我仍然会梦见那座桥，你知道，经常梦见自己步行在桥上，想要逃离它。

To this day, I still have dreams about the bridge, you know, of of being on it often on foot and trying to get off of it.

你知道吗？

You know?

我想谈谈你在书中详细描述的各种结局。

So I wanna talk about the various endings that you detail in the book.

包括太平洋西北地区的萨科烟囱的终结、那座桥的终结，以及太平洋西北地区连环杀手活动高峰期的终结。

The end of the Sarco smokestack in the Pacific Northwest, the end of the bridge, and the end of peak serial killer activity in the Pacific Northwest.

那么我们就从这座桥开始吧。

So let's start with the bridge.

它是怎么最终消失的？

How how did it end up going away?

他们最终在八十年代中期某个时候移除了那个凸起部分。

They finally removed the bulge in I'm thinking it was the mid eighties at some point.

然后我记得是在89或90年的感恩节期间，西雅图遭遇了一场大暴雨——这在西雅图并不稀奇。

Then they had a a major rainstorm, surprise, surprise in Seattle in thanks giving of I think it's it's '89 or '90.

暴雨来临时，桥面积水沉没了。

And when there was the storm, it filled up with water and sank.

好的。

Okay.

那么塔科马附近的Asarco工厂呢？

So what about the Asarco plant near Tacoma?

最后那里发生了什么？

What ended up happening with that?

塔科马的Asarco冶炼厂在整个七十年代变得越来越有争议，同时由于环保署的成立和《清洁空气法案》的通过，冶炼厂的经济状况发生了根本性变化。

The Asarco smelter in Tacoma was becoming more and more controversial in the community throughout the seventies at the same time that the economic situation was changing radically for smelters because of the creation of the EPA, the passage of the Clean Air Act.

合法运营冶炼厂几乎变得不可能。

It was becoming almost impossible to operate a smelter legally.

因此公司不得不不断申请豁免，而由于Asarco对塔科马经济的重要性，这些申请总是被批准。

And so the company kept having to go and apply for variances, which they were inevitably granted because of the economic importance of a Sarco in the Tacoma economy.

但到了八十年代，他们无法再以过去的方式经营业务了。

But by the eighties, they were not gonna be able to do business the way they had been doing it.

他们将无法盈利。

They weren't gonna be able to make a profit.

于是Asarco在1986年关闭了该工厂，同时开始关闭他们在西部蒙大拿和犹他州的所有其他设施，以至于现在美国只剩下三家主要冶炼厂仍在运营。

And so Asarco closes that plant in 1986 and at the same time begins closing all their other facilities in the West in Montana and Utah, such that there are now, I believe, only three primary smelters still operating in The United States.

于是Asarco开始面临所有这些诉讼。

So Asarco starts facing all these lawsuits.

他们面临破产。

They're looking at bankruptcy.

与此同时发生的另一件大事是，EPA终于对含铅汽油表明了立场。

And another major thing that happens around the same time is that the EPA finally takes a position on leaded gasoline.

含铅汽油开始在全国范围内逐步淘汰。

And leaded gas starts to slowly phase out across the country.

这形成了一个非常有趣的图表，因为七八十年代暴力犯罪和连环杀手数量都有所上升。

It's a it's a very interesting graph that this creates because there's a rise in violent crime, a rise in the number of serial killers throughout the seventies and eighties.

随着关闭冶炼厂和淘汰含铅汽油行动的完成，到九十年代中后期，美国及其他发达经济体的暴力犯罪率开始断崖式下降。

And then with the completion of this movement to close smelters and remove leaded gas, by the mid to late nineties, you start to see violent crime drop off a cliff in The United States and other developed economies around the world.

你觉得你破解了连环杀手的密码吗？

Do you feel like you cracked the code on serial killers?

我不确定自己是否发现了关于连环杀手的统一场论。

I don't know that I have discovered the unified field theory of serial killers.

但我确实认为，在历史上的某个时期，这类活动因某种原因变得普遍。

But but I do think that it was a time in history when this kind of activity became endemic for some reason.

我真的很渴望能找到某种解释。

And I really yearned for some way to explain it.

无论真假，我们拭目以待。

Whether it's true or not, we'll see.

但对我来说，这构成了一个迷人却又悲惨的时代故事，所幸那个时代似乎已经结束。

But to me, it made for a fascinating if if tragic story of an era that is fortunately seems to be over.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，如果我们无法对连环杀手得出任何明确可证的结论，我很好奇你是否得出了某种结论。

I mean, if we can't come to any, you know, definitive, provable conclusion about serial killers, I'm curious if you've arrived at some kind of conclusion.

这本书似乎凝聚了你一生中许多悬而未决的问题。

I mean, this book is a culmination of a lot of open questions that you seem to have had throughout your entire life.

你是否觉得在某种程度上得到了某种了结？

Do you feel like there's some kind of closure there?

嗯，这个问题我之前确实没怎么想过。

Well, that's not something I'd really thought about before.

从某些方面来说，我想是的。

I think in some ways, yes.

我认为，那种想要更多了解连环杀手的冲动已经不复存在了。

The urge to to know more about serial killers, I think, is not there anymore.

我想我已经在连环杀手身上花费了足够多的时间。

I think I've I've spent enough time with the serial killers.

这本书我真的很喜欢。

Well, I really enjoyed the book so much.

感谢你参加节目。

Thanks for coming on the show.

谢谢。

Thank you.

和你交谈非常愉快。

It's been great talking to you.

本周的《99不可见》由劳德·希马达恩制作，马丁·冈萨雷斯混音，斯旺·瑞尔配乐。

99 Invisible was produced this week by Laud Shimadaun, mixed by Martin Gonzalez, music by Swan Real.

我们的执行制作人是凯西·图。

Our executive producer is Kathy Too.

德莱尼·霍尔是我们的高级编辑。

Delaney Hall is our senior editor.

库尔特·科尔斯泰德担任数字总监。

Kurt Colestead is the digital director.

团队其他成员包括克里斯·佩鲁布、杰森·德莱昂、乔·罗森伯格、克里斯托弗·约翰逊、埃米特·菲茨杰拉德、薇薇安·李、凯莉·普莱姆、雅各布·梅迪纳·格里森、塔隆和雷恩·斯特拉德利，以及我——罗曼·马尔斯。

The rest of the team includes Chris Perrube, Jason De Leon, Joe Rosenberg, Christopher Johnson, Emmett Fitzgerald, Vivian Leigh, Kelly Prime, Jacob Medina Gleason, Talon and Rayne Stradley, and me, Roman Mars.

《99%可见》的标志由斯特凡·劳伦斯设计。

The 99% visible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence.

我们隶属于天狼星XM播客家族，总部现位于加州奥克兰美丽的上城区潘多拉大厦，往北六个街区。

We are part of the SiriusXM podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora Building in beautiful Uptown Oakland, California.

您可以在Blue Sky平台以及我们的Discord服务器上找到我们。

You can find us on Blue Sky as well as our own Discord server.

99pi往期所有节目及更多信息，请访问99pi.org获取链接。

There's a link to that as well as every past episode of 99pi@ 99pi.org.