权力掮客 #13：垂死之城

那曾是一个真正蓬勃发展的产业。

It was a real growth industry.

那就是纽约的警务工作。

It was policing in New York.

警察们采取了大规模抗议行动，封锁了一座桥梁。

And the cops go, they have this big protest action where they're shutting down a bridge.

你能看到下班警察在抗议，与试图维持秩序的在岗警察发生冲突。

Like you have police officers off duty protesting who are getting into fights with police officers that are there to try to keep the peace on duty.

虽然'火药桶'这个词经常被滥用，但当时人们确实担心如果纽约违约，情况会变得更糟。

And, I mean, the the term powder keg gets thrown around a lot, but I think that was the fear at the time was if New York defaults, you're gonna get even more of this.

局势就像个火药桶，我们不得不解雇警察，而他们可能会暴动。

That it's such a powder keg that we're gonna have to fire cops, and they're gonna be, you know, rioting.

我们还得解雇环卫工人，垃圾将会堆积如山。

We're gonna have to fire sanitation workers, and the garbage is gonna pile up.

在城市火灾频发、废弃建筑不断起火的时期，我们却要解雇消防员。

We're gonna have to fire firefighters at a time when there's fires constantly in the city because there are abandoned buildings going up in flames.

有些房东通过纵火来摆脱他们手中的房产。

There are landlords who are getting buildings off of their hands by lighting them on fire.

是啊。

Yeah.

所有这些最基本的服务，那些被裁掉的人可不会说‘唉，看来我得去学点新技能换工作了’。

And all these very basic services, and the people who are being cut are not like, ugh, well, I guess it's time for me to go pick up the skills for for another job.

不会。

No.

他们可能会非常愤怒地反抗，要知道，人们觉得‘在这种关系中本该是我们掌权，因为我们有强大的工会’。

They could react very angrily, you know, and there's a feeling of but we're supposed to have the power in this relationship because we're these powerful unions.

某种程度上这变成了——如果我能在这个播客里用‘比谁尿得更远’这个说法的话。

And it becomes, to a certain extent, if I can use the term pissing match on this on this podcast.

没错。

That's right.

确实有点演变成那种局面了。

It becomes a little bit of one of those.

但这些事情是这座城市很久很久都没见过的了。

But just these things that the city has not seen in a long, long time.

人们担心的是，如果我们削减所有这些服务，这座城市就会陷入混乱。

And the fear is if we cut all these services, then the city is gonna be it's gonna turn into bedlam.

民众会直接暴动起义。

People are just gonna riot and rise up.

但另一方面，如果我们不做这些削减，城市就会违约，那样所有人都将失业。

But also, if we don't make these cuts, the city is gonna default, in which case everyone's gonna lose their job.

而如果城市爆发动乱，这些事情发生的话就会引发骚乱和暴力。

And if the city's gonna rise up, and it'll be riots and become violent if if these things happen.

警察工会极力鼓吹这种论调，他们甚至发起了一场宣传活动，让休班的警察到公交枢纽向游客分发宣传册，上面用大字写着'欢迎来到恐惧之城'，中间画着死神图案，底下还写着'纽约市游客生存指南'。

The police union really pushes this narrative, and and they even launch a propaganda campaign where off duty cops go to bus terminals and they pass out pamphlets to tourists that say, like, in big letters, welcome to Fear City with a grim reaper in the middle, and underneath it, it it said a survival guide for visitors to the city of New York.

里面全是这类建议：天黑后不要离开酒店房间。

All these tips where it's like, don't leave your hotel room after dark.

不要乘坐地铁。

Do not ride the subways.

他们确实在加剧游客的恐慌情绪，特别是因为他们试图传达：如果我们不上班，就会切断纽约市的旅游业——令人惊讶的是，即使在这座城市衰败的时期，旅游业仍是相当可观的产业。

Like, they're really raising raising the level of paranoia among travelers, especially, because what they're trying to do is they're trying to say, if we're not on duty, we are gonna cut off the tourism to New York City that amazingly, even at this time when New York City was crumbling, was still pretty big business.

让我感到震惊的是纽约如此庞大。

That's the thing that's astounding to me is that New York is an enormous city.

城市一端发生的事与另一端截然不同。

What's happening in one side of the city is so different from what's happening on Absolutely.

南布朗克斯发生的事与格林尼治村完全不同，后者又与皇后区法拉盛的情况大相径庭。

The other side of the That what's happening in the South Bronx is so different from what's happening in Greenwich Village, which is so different from what's happening in Flushing, Queens.

这确实是座巨大的城市。

Like, it's it's an enormous city.

但你也能看到这样的画面：街道上堆满垃圾，老旧建筑坍塌，废弃的瓦砾堆成了孩子们玩耍受伤的场所。

But you see this footage of garbage in the streets, old buildings just crumbling, just empty lots of rubble that children are playing in and getting hurt in.

与此同时，人们依然想去纽约旅游。

And at the same time, it's still people still wanna go to New York and visit it.

他们仍然想参观帝国大厦和时代广场。

Like, it's still they still wanna see the Empire State Building and Times Square.

尽管那时的时代广场充斥着色情影院、吸毒场所之类的地方，人们依然想去参观这些地方。

And even though Times Square is full of, at that point, just kind of like porn theaters and shooting galleries and things like that, like, they still wanna go see these things.

警方试图传达这样一种观念：如果不重新雇佣这些警察，没有警力维持，纽约将成为世界上最危险、最恐怖的地方。

And the police are they wanna present the idea that without if you don't rehire these police, without this police presence, the city is will just be the most dangerous, frightening place in the world.

与此同时，市政府正试图筹措这笔巨额资金。

Meanwhile, the city is trying to figure out where it's gonna get all this money.

于是他们向联邦政府寻求帮助。

So they approach the federal government.

尼克松已在一年前辞职，杰拉尔德·福特接任总统。

So Nixon had resigned a year earlier, and Gerald Ford is now the president.

正如我们提到的，前纽约州长纳尔逊·洛克菲勒已获任副总统，财政部长则是曾任纽约市债券销售员的威廉·西蒙。

And and like we mentioned, former New York governor, Nelson Rockefeller, had gotten himself appointed as vice president, and the secretary of treasury was William Simon, who had been a New York City bond salesman.

因此他们对纽约市的情况了如指掌。

So, like, they knew exactly what what had been going on in the city.

你会以为——你会以为这位副总统曾是我们的州长。

You would think you would think the vice president used to be our governor.

这位财政部长以前就在这里工作生活。

The guy the the secretary of treasury used to live work here.

这本该超级简单，但事实恰恰相反。

This will be super easy, but it's the instead, it's it's the exact opposite.

简直是铁板一块。

It it's such a stonewall.

西蒙本身就是问题的一部分。

And Simon's part of the problem.

但问题的另一部分在于：福特政府中是谁在掌权？

But another part of the problem is who is running things in the Ford administration?

说实话，当这些人在电影里出场时，我胃都疼了。

And, like, my stomach hurt when these guys showed up in the movie.

正是唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德和迪克·切尼。

It's Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

没错。

That's right.

他们到底要出现多少次，在政府和各种事务中冒出来干坏事？

What is going like, what how many times are they gonna pop up in the government and things and just do bad stuff?

他们简直就是彻头彻尾的恶棍。

Like, it's they're just such bad guys.

你懂我意思吗？

You know?

不知道你是否有和我一样的反应，Roman，但真的就是他们一出现在屏幕上——年轻、面带微笑，因为他们正在伤害别人且乐在其中——我就...

It was like I don't know if you had the same reaction I did, Roman, but it was literally like as soon as they showed up on screen looking young and and smiling because they're they're doing they're doing bad they're hurting people, and they love it.

我当时就想：呃，又是这帮人。

I was like, ugh, these guys.

他们怎么总能像劣币一样不断回流？

Like, how do they how do they keep doing these bad pennies keep turning up?

完全没错。

It's it's totally right.

就像看《星球大战》前传时，看到帕尔帕廷议员走过，你就会想：我知道你接下来要干什么了。

It's like watching the Star Wars prequels, and you see, like, you know, like, senator Palpatine walking across, and you're like, I know what you're I know what's going to happen now.

是的。

Yeah.

广告之后继续为您带来《死亡之城》的更多内容。

More on Drop Dead City after the break.

欢迎回来，现在由埃利奥特·卡林为您讲述纪录片《死亡之城》。

We're back with Elliot Kalin talking about the documentary Drop Dead City.

当我们离开纽约时是1975年，这座城市正试图从灾难性的财政危机中挣扎求生。

So when we left New York, it was 1975, and the city was trying to claw its way out of a catastrophic financial crisis.

联邦政府不愿施以援手，因此市政府陷入了两难——既要与要求大幅削减服务的银行家周旋，又要面对不愿失业的市政员工。

The federal government did not wanna help, and so the city is stuck sort of negotiating between the bankers who want deep cuts to services and the city workers who want their jobs.

于是形成了这样的恶性循环：市政府不断裁员、削减服务，工会因服务缩减而愤怒罢工，银行家与市政府谈判，工会与市政府谈判，同时制定各种重组城市财政的方案。

And so you end up in this cycle of the city constantly firing people, cutting services, strikes happening because the unions are mad because of the services, talks between the bankers and the city, talks between the unions and the city, and the formation of different schemes to try to reorganize the city's finances.

其中最重要的就是MAC（市政援助公司），由主席费利克斯·罗哈廷监管。

And the big one is is MAC, the Municipal Assistance Corporation, under the oversight of chairman Felix Rohatyn.

我总是记不太清他名字的拼写是r o h a t y n，而且我脑子里总念不准这个发音。

I always cannot quite his name is spelled r o h a t y n, and I always have trouble pronouncing it in my head.

你知道，在电影里，他们用几种不同的方式念这个名字，但我喜欢让它和'曼哈顿'押韵，念成'菲利克斯·罗斯'。

You know, in the movie, they say it a couple of different ways, but I sort of make it rhyme with Manhattan, Felix Roth.

哦，这主意真不错。

Oh, that's really nice.

这是个好办法。

That's a good way to do it.

如果要用政治漫画的术语来形容，某种程度上这变成了银行家与工会的对立，银行家们坚持认为必须削减开支。

And at this point, if you wanted to put it into political cartoon terms, it becomes, in some ways, the bankers versus the unions, where the bankers are saying, you need to make cuts.

必须削减开支。

You need to make cuts.

而工会则坚决反对。

And the unions are saying, no.

不行。

No.

绝对不行。

No.

不。

No.

不要削减开支。

Don't make cuts.

如果你们这么做，我们就要罢工了。

We're gonna go on strike if you do this.

而城市在这中间陷入了某种瘫痪状态。

And the city is kind of paralyzed in the middle.

但实际上情况比这更复杂，因为解决问题的很大一部分还涉及工会也投资这些债券，这一点我之前不太了解，觉得非常奇怪，因为这就像是工会的养老基金要投资于这座城市，而城市又支付工会工人的工资。

But it's really more complicated than that because so much of the solution to the problem involves also the unions investing in these bonds as well, which is something that I was not as familiar with and seems very strange to me because it's like, well, now the union pension fund is gonna invest in the city that then pays the union workers.

如果这个机制运转良好，那将形成一个多么美妙的资金循环，钱在工会和市政口袋之间进进出出。

And if it works, what a beautiful cycle of money that it can just go in and out of the union pockets and out of the city pockets.

但这确实让我意识到，我成长过程中一直被灌输的说法是：城市破产是因为管理太差，不知道自己在做什么。

But it really shows you, I guess, that the the narrative that I was always taught growing up was the city ran out of money because it was too poorly managed and it didn't know what it was doing.

它需要帮助，必须削减一切开支才能让银行家和商业回归。

And it needed help and it had to cut everything in order to get bankers to come back and businesses to come back.

它不得不变成如今这个技术至上的资本主义世界。

And it had to become the technotopian of capitalist world that is right now.

但实际上，这个故事要复杂得多，并没有像人们有时讲述的那样得出一个干净的结论，而是仍然依赖于许多不同的权力掮客和权力来源以某种方式走到一起合作。

But in reality, it's a much more complicated story and one that didn't come to as clean a conclusion as it's sometimes told, but also still relied on a lot of different power brokers and power sources coming to come together to work together in some way.

这个市政援助公司的整个理念基本上就是为了找到一些迂回的方法来创造新型债券，这样如果MAC（市政援助公司）为城市的债券提供担保，银行家们可能会对它多一点信心，他们某种程度上——

This whole idea of this municipal assistance corporation is basically there to find, you know, wonky ways to create new kinds of bonds so that maybe if the MAC is sponsoring the bonds of the city, you know, like, it it it has a little bit more confidence in terms of the bankers, and they kinda

这会向银行表明有人在监督这座城市，确保其诚信运作。

This get it will show the banks that somebody is overseeing the city in a way that's gonna keep it honest.

我还特别喜欢他们需要为它起一个响亮的首字母缩写，于是开始称它为'巨无霸'（Big Mac），这种品牌塑造在这种事情上竟然也如此重要。

And I love also that they need a that they need a great acronym for it, and they start calling it Big Mac, which is such a it's just that that branding is so important, even in something like this.

而且人们对事物的感知方式如此重要，即使在看似枯燥乏味的市政债券信用问题上也是如此。

And and the way people perceive things is so important, even in something as seemingly boring and cut and dry as municipal bond confidence.

你明白吗？

You know?

没错。

Right.

于是Big Mac介入，开始削弱Bean市长的权力，后者基本上只负责，你知道的，象征性的职责，并不参与城市财政决策，，这其实可以说是市长，的职责。

So Big Mac comes in and begins to diminish mayor Bean, who's just sort of there for, you know, ceremonial things and is not making the fiscal decisions of the city, which you could argue was, like, the key decisions of a mayor.

我也这么认为。

And I would say so.

是的。

Yeah.

我想是的。

I would think so.

然后他们得不到喘息机会，你知道的，比如他要去小组委员会作证，那些阿拉巴马州的参议员们，就像，指责他们的开支习惯之类的事情。

And then they can't get a break from you know, like, he goes and testifies in front of subcommittees where these Alabama senators are, like, chastising them for their spending habits and and and stuff like this.

这就像，整个地方都摇摇欲坠。

It's it's like, the whole place is really, really shaky.

现在我们都必须考虑我们各自州的民众对此会作何反应。

Now what we all have to consider is how the people back in our respective states respond to this.

如果我们打算帮助你们，我们必须向他们解释清楚。

If we're going to help you out, we've got to justify it to them.

而目前，我们在这方面遇到了很大困难。

And right now, we're having great difficulty doing it.

你自己也提到，纽约拥有全美最强大的市政工会。

And now you noted yourself that New York has the strongest municipal unions in the nation.

我认为他们过于强大，而且纽约的薪资水平高得离谱。

I suggest that they're too strong, and the salaries are inordinately high in New York.

那种认为纽约需要被管教、需要被惩罚的感觉，认为这是个几乎无法维持秩序的地方，充斥着全国最暴力、最无法控制的自由派渣滓——这种观念本身就包含了深刻的种族主义层次。

That feeling that New York needs to be disciplined, that it needs to be punished, that it is a place that can barely hold together, and it's full of just the most violent, uncontrollable, liberal scum of the country, which has its incredible layers of of racism built into that.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

要知道，这些人很多都是南方来的黑人移民，他们来到纽约。

Know, these are that so much of this is black migrants from the South coming up to New York.

还有波多黎各人来到纽约市，这些人并非中产阶级的白人房主。

This is Puerto Ricans coming to New York City, people who are not middle class white homeowners.

所有这些因素都包含在其中。

That is all built into this.

但这种认为必须给纽约一个教训的想法。

But this idea that someone's gotta teach New York a lesson.

不。

No.

这是最糟糕的。

It's the it's the worst.

而且保守主义正在抬头。

And there and there's this rise of conservatism.

比如杰拉尔德·福特，我对他没什么印象。

Like, Gerald Ford, I don't have much of an impression of him.

他是...你知道...那整个政府都是未经选举上台的。

He was you know, the you know, that whole administration was an unelected administration.

明白吗？

You know?

我会给你杰拉尔德·福特的《读者文摘》简版介绍。

He was I'll give you the the Reader's Digest version of Gerald Ford.

杰拉尔德·福特，本意善良的人，没有特别强烈的意识形态，但非常像那种'每个人都必须遵守预算'的类型。

Gerald Ford, well meaning guy, not particularly ideological, but very kind of like, well, everyone's gotta follow a budget.

他热爱预算，不喜欢花钱的想法。

He loves budgets, and he doesn't like the idea of spending.

非常运动型。

Very athletic.

极其运动型。

Incredibly athletic.

可能是我们有过的最运动型的总统。

Probably the most athletic president we've ever had.

本可以成为职业球员，橄榄球那种。

Could have played professional ball, football that is.

但是，没错，他并非民选上位。

But, yeah, unelected to where he is.

而我从他身上总能感受到一种感觉：他其实并不具备胜任这份工作的能力。

And the feeling I always get from him is someone who is not really equipped to handle the job that he is doing.

他不是个白痴，但他之所以更加挣扎，是因为缺乏坚定的意识形态立场。

Not he's not an idiot, but that he is struggling more because he does not have a real strong ideological bearing.

所以当这一切在纽约市发生时，他内心深处除了‘纽约需要吸取教训，因为每个人都必须量入为出’之外，真正想的是：我知道1976年将要在总统初选中面对罗纳德·里根。

And so when this is all happening with with New York City, what's really in the back of his mind other than New York needs to be taught a lesson because everyone needs to live within a budget is I know in 1976, I'm gonna face Ronald Reagan in presidential primary.

没错。

That's right.

而罗纳德·里根会说，我们需要减税并削减公共服务。

And Ronald Reagan is gonna say, we need to cut taxes and we need to cut services.

所以我得从右翼包抄他。

So I gotta outflank him on the right.

这正好说明，民选联邦官员做出的任何决策，部分关乎决策本身，部分关乎这如何影响我的下次选举。

And it just shows you how any decision made by someone in a in elected federal office is partly about the decision and partly about how is this gonna affect me in the next election.

我认为杰拉尔德·福特深受其幕僚影响这一点怎么强调都不为过——这些幕僚比他保守得多，同时他也在试图塑造形象，不是作为'那个通过无限资金援助拯救纽约（我们保守派都憎恶的城市）的共和党总统候选人'，而是试图在那一刻比里根更里根。

And I think it can't be understated how much Gerald Ford was taking a cue from the people who worked for him who were much more conservative than he was and also attempting to set himself up not as I'm the Republican presidential candidate who saved New York by giving it an unlimited lifeline of money, the city that all of us conservatives hate, but instead how he's trying to kind of out Reagan Reagan in that moment.

而且他处理这事的方式并不算最圆滑。

And he doesn't do it in the most tactful way.

在纪录片中，福特的通讯主管大卫·格根提到，他接到电话要求为福特撰写一篇演讲，解释为何不支持向纽约市提供任何援助。

In the documentary, Ford's communications director, David Gergen, says he got a call to write a speech for Ford explaining why he would not support any help to New York City.

我的印象是福特想要一篇立场强硬的演讲。

I had the impression that Ford wanted a hardline speech.

所以我写了一篇措辞严厉的演讲并提交，当时理解的是会经过幕僚润色。

So I wrote a very hard hitting speech and sent it over with the understanding it was gonna be staffed out.

但经过幕僚处理后，演讲内容被大幅稀释了。

And what happens with the staffing now is it gets watered down.

当他发表演讲时，我感到震惊。

I was shocked when he gave a speech.

纽约市的财政问题责任被推到了联邦政府的前门台阶上，就像被亲生父母遗弃的弃婴。

Responsibility for New York City's financial problems is being left on the front doorstep of the federal government, unwanted and abandoned by its real parents.

我现在就可以明确告诉你们，我已准备好否决任何旨在通过联邦救助防止纽约市违约的法案。

I can tell you and tell you now that I am prepared to veto any bill that has as its purpose a federal bailout of New York City to prevent a default.

我从根本上反对这种所谓的解决方案。

I am fundamentally opposed to this so called solution.

福特在1975年10月29日发表了这场演讲。

Ford gives this speech on 10/29/1975.

第二天，《纽约每日新闻》头版刊登了标题为'福特对城市说：去死吧'的报道。

And the next day, the New York Daily News runs a front page story with the headline Ford to city drop dead.

当然，福特从未说过这些原话，甚至类似的话都没说过，但这并不重要。

Of course, Ford never said those exact words or, like, really anything like those words, but it did not matter.

当这条新闻通过《纽约每日新闻》的翻译机器处理后，我们最终得到了'福特对城市说：去死吧'这个标题——当你想到美国报纸史上最伟大的标题时，比如'人类登月'、'杜威击败杜鲁门'，而'杜威击败杜鲁门'能入选纯粹是因为那张经典照片，因为他们完全搞错了。

When it was run through the New York Daily News translation machine, we end up with the headline Ford to city drop dead, which is which is such I mean, when you think about the greatest headlines in American history in newspaper, it's like man walks on moon, Dewey defeats Truman, and Dewey defeats Truman just get in gets in because it's that great picture because because because they were wrong.

而福特对纽约市见死不救。

And Ford to City dropped dead.

然后我记得《纽约邮报》登了个标题叫'无头尸体现身脱衣舞酒吧'，这堪称纽约报纸史上最经典标题之一。

And then I think it was the Post had headless body found in topless bar, which is one the all time great New York newspaper headlines.

但事实上，这个标题让纽约人觉得它精准捕捉到了他们对联邦政府的感受，并以某种方式玷污了福特回应的形象——你可以争论这公不公平，但我得说这标题确实绝妙。

But the fact that this headline felt to New Yorkers like it so captured the feeling they were getting from the federal government, and it so tainted the idea of Ford's response in the minds of New Yorkers in a way that you can argue whether it was fair or not, but I will say it's a it's a great headline.

所以...我对这个标题还挺满意的。

So so I'm okay with it.

这确实是一个展现新闻业力量的时刻，因为关于福特强硬演讲和《纽约每日新闻》'福特对城市说去死吧'标题最引人入胜的一点是，它在某种程度上让城市对这个重拳做出反应，并因此团结起来。

It is it's really a moment where you see the power of journalism because one of the things that's so fascinating about the Ford, like, tough speech and the New York Daily News' Ford to City Drop Dead headline is that in a way, I think it creates this, like, the city reacts to this gut punch and kind of pulls together because of it.

它确实产生了强大的影响，因为突然间，纽约就像在说，

Like, it really has a powerful impact because all of a sudden, it's like New York is like,

你。

you.

是啊。

Yeah.

基本上就是在说'让我去死'？

Basically, it's just a drop dead me?

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

为此准备了。

Present for it.

去死吧你。

Drop dead you.

而且这真的很神奇。

And there's a it's it's amazing.

我是说，我想这确实说明了问题。

I mean, I guess it goes goes to show.

我觉得这就像是动作片里反派常说的那种话——如果你想让大家团结起来，就给他们一个共同的敌人去憎恨。

I feel like this is the kind of thing that bad guys say in action movies all the time where they're like, if you wanna bring people together, give them a villain to hate.

而且电影呈现的方式让人觉得这些纽约人彼此之间剑拔弩张。

And it's it feels like these New Yorkers are all at at each other's throats as the movie presents in a way.

劳工对资本不满，不同群体之间互相敌对，而那些不参与罢工却要收拾垃圾的人则对罢工者感到愤怒，诸如此类。

Labor is mad at capital, and different people are mad at other different people, and the the people who aren't who are knocking the garbage picked up are mad at the strikers and things like that.

然后当福特进来宣布‘不，整个城市，我不会帮助你们’时，

And then once Ford comes in and says, no, the whole city, I'm not gonna help you.

你们臭不可闻。

You stink.

所有人都对他感到愤怒，这确实让他们稍微团结了一点。

Everyone gets mad at him, and it does draw them together a little bit.

这就像是山姆·雷米版《蜘蛛侠》结尾的场景——虽然人们可能不喜欢这位爬墙者，但当他们看到绿魔攻击满载孩子的电车时，立刻明白必须朝他扔管道和垃圾等东西。

It's like the it's the end of the the end of I think we all remember the end of Spider Man, the of the Sam Raimi film, where what people may not like the wall crawler, but as soon as they see the green goblin attacking a tram full of kids, they know they have to throw pipes and garbage and things at him.

没错。

That's right.

因为我认为这至少帮助他们意识到：‘要想渡过难关，我们就不能继续内斗，至少不能像之前那样’。

And because it's I think it does help them to realize at the very least, oh, we can't fight among ourselves if we're gonna get through this, at least not the same way we were before.

而且除非我们以某种方式向政府证明他们必须帮助我们，否则政府是不会伸出援手的。

And that the government is not gonna help us unless we show them in a way why they need to help us.

因为最终，这对我来说是整个过程中最疯狂的事情。

Because eventually, this is the this is to me is the craziest thing about the whole process.

最终，联邦政府确实向城市提供了援助。

Eventually, the federal government does provide help to the city.

它提供贷款来支持纽约最初的资金问题，使他们能够逐步摆脱困境，但仍然存在紧缩削减。

It provides it provides kind of loans to back up New York's initial funding problems so that they can dig their way out of this problem eventually over time, and there's still austerity cuts.

这仍然不令人愉快，而且城市最终以这种方式转变，虽然可能更安全但从长远来看少了些乐趣。

It's still not pleasant, and the city still transforms in this way that is probably safer but less fun in the long run.

但你开始思考，如果联邦政府几个月前就这样做，事情可能不会变得这么糟糕。

But you start to think about, well, if the federal government had just done this months earlier, then things probably wouldn't have gotten as bad.

但相反，每个人都处于这种状态，他们必须证明自己是对的。

But instead everyone was in this kind of like, they had to show that they were right.

你知道吗？

You know?

我感觉就像任何电影里两个男人吵架，最后他们的妻子不得不介入——或者更像是情景喜剧而不是电影。

I feel like any movie where two guys get into an argument and at the end their wives have to tell or maybe it's a sitcom more than a movie.

他们的妻子不得不告诉他们，你们都太执着于证明自己是对的，以至于看不到其实你们需要互相帮助，你们真的需要彼此。

Their wives have to tell them, you were both so focused on being right that you couldn't see that you needed to help each other, you know, that you really need each other.

看起来就是这样。

And that's what it seems like.

因为另一个潜在的争论是：美国真的需要纽约市吗？

Because the another underlying argument of it is, does America really need New York City?

纽约市真的像它自己认为的那么重要吗？

Is New York City as important as it thinks it is?

美国能否在不损害已投资纽约债券多年的本土区域性银行、不破坏国际业务、不让其他国家视美国为崩溃的情况下，给纽约上一课？

And can The United States teach New York a lesson without its own regional banks that have already invested in these New York bonds over the years without them falling apart, without international business falling apart, without the other countries seeing America as crumbling.

要知道这可是冷战时期。

Like, this is during the Cold War.

美国竟会允许其最大城市直接违约破产，而俄罗斯不会对此大做文章——这种想法本身也令人难以置信。

And it's the idea that The United States would allow its largest city to just default and go bankrupt and that Russia would not have a field day with that is is also an amazing thing.

我的意思是，这很重要——比如福特发表演讲后，人们突然开始出书讨论，他们会说‘你知道吗？’

I mean, that's a huge part of, you know, like, after Ford gives the speech, you know, all of sudden people start doing books and they go like, oh, you know what?

不仅仅是纽约市内的个人债券持有人会持有这些违约债券，就像手里攥着废纸一样。

It's not just, like, individual bondholders inside of New York that are gonna have these defaulted bonds on there just, like, have kind of worthless paper.

全国数百家银行都将持有这些债券，它们都将违约。

Hundreds of banks around the country are going to have these things, and they're gonna default.

然后其他国家的数百家银行也将面临这些违约。

And then hundreds of banks in other countries are going to have these defaults.

每个人都拥有纽约市繁荣的一部分。

Everyone owns a piece of New York City's prosperity.

德国国家元首直接对福特说，你们不会真的让这种事发生吧。

Literally, the head of state of Germany is saying to Ford, like, you're not really gonna let this happen.

对吧？

Right?

这对所有人都会非常糟糕。

This is gonna be really bad for everybody.

然后一切都改变了。

And everything changes.

突然间，所有这些原本难以获得支持的制度安排，终于让人们意识到问题必须得到解决。

And all of a sudden, all these sort of systems that put into place, which, you know, were kind of having a hard time gaining traction, were finally, like, people realizing that this needs to be solved.

于是，奥尔巴尼两党一致决定提高税收。

So, like, Albany decides on a bipartisan basis to raise taxes.

城市削减了服务，菲利克斯·罗哈廷协助监督这一过程。

And, you know, the city cuts services, and, Felix Rohatten helps oversee this.

他与各方沟通，因为他能看清问题的各个方面。

He's talking to all sides because he kind of can see all sides of this stuff.

他把人们凝聚在一起。

He brings people together.

福特承诺提供一系列贷款。

Ford promises a bunch of loans.

最后一步是工会购买MAC债券。

The last little bit is the labor unions buy the MAC bonds.

他们动用养老金投资于这座城市。

They take their pension money, and they invest in the city.

最后这部分说服工作特别针对教师工会，他们在这个问题上表现得尤为强硬，主要是因为教师薪资普遍偏低，而他们唯一拥有的就是工作保障。

And this last little bit of convincing, especially the teachers union who, you know, kinda got the, I don't know, they they sort of set up the head of the teachers union as particularly kinda truculent when it comes to this stuff, particularly because the teachers are pretty underpaid, and the one thing they have is security.

当大批教师被解雇时，他们对市政当局的做法感到极度不满，同时还要忍受学校不断塞进越来越多的学生。

And when they were laid off in great number, they took great offense to what the city was doing and and also, like, packing the schools with more and more students.

原本规定每班30名学生的教室，现在要挤进60名学生。

Like, classrooms are supposed to have 30 students, would have, like, 60 students in them.

因此他们确实需要被说服投资这些债券。

And so they really had to be convinced to invest in these bonds.

但最终他们还是同意了。

But in the end, they did.

这一系列措施最终在最危急时刻避免了破产，为城市服务重新规划奠定了基础，虽然财政状况至今可能仍岌岌可危，但总算维持了基本偿付能力。

And that sort of set of things finally sort of averted bankruptcy in its worst moments and kinda set them up on the path to, you know, like a reset of what city services could be offered, but sort of a fiscal solvency that sort of like continues, I think, probably tenuously to this day.

这真是个惊人的转折点，《垂死之城》对此有着极其生动的呈现。

It's this amazing kind of hinge point, and and Drop Dead City presents it so viscerally.

这个转折点标志着城市从旧貌到新颜的蜕变。

This hinge point from the city as it was to the city as it became.

作为一个在八十年代和九十年代初在纽约以外长大的人，这种感觉尤为强烈。九十年代末和二月期间我在纽约时，看到这座城市的另一种面貌，看到那个已不复存在的纽约，实在令人着迷。

And it just it feels to someone who grew up outside of New York in the eighties and then the early nineties, I was in New York in the late nineties and the February, it's just so fascinating to see it, to see this kind of other version of the city, the city that really doesn't exist the same way anymore.

还能看到它的残影。

There's remnants of it.

那是我父母会讲述故事的城市，是电影里描绘的城市，但如今漫步纽约街头，却再也找不到那种感觉了。

The city that my parents would tell me stories about or that you can watch movies about, but when you walk around New York now, it just doesn't have that same feeling.

那种直击心灵的感受已经消失了。

It doesn't have that same visceral feeling.

这部纪录片最打动人的地方，就在于它似乎捕捉到了那种身处另一个纽约的体验——与现今截然不同的城市气息。

And so much of the strength of the documentary comes to how it seems to capture that feeling, that feeling of being in a different city than the one that exists now.

我多希望能亲身探访，但又不确定是否真愿意在那里生活，因为那里看起来确实是个相当阴郁的地方。

I wish I could visit, but I'm never quite sure I actually wanna live there because it does seem it seems like a real dismal place.

所以这确实

So it's a it's it

肯定够呛。

would be a lot for sure.

好的。

Okay.

那么回到权力掮客的讨论，电影《Drop Dead City》中并未提及罗伯特·摩西。

So to bring us back to the powerbroker discussion, Robert Moses is not mentioned in the movie Drop Dead City.

我们为全面了解情况而配套阅读的另一本书是金·菲利普斯·费恩所著的《恐惧之城》。

This other book that that we read sort of, like, in conjunction with this to get a full picture was this book called Fear City by Kim Phillips Fine.

摩西可能被提到过一次。

Moses had mentioned maybe once.

我甚至不记得那是个很——

I don't even remember it being a very

重要的事。

big deal.

这在我看来是对摩西地位的有意淡化。

That like a deliberate decentering of Moses to me.

也许在这两个项目中——无论是《权力掮客》本身，还是通过《权力掮客》折射出的摩西阴影（甚至不是摩西本人），这个阴影对纽约研究的影响如此深远，以至于将其暂时搁置以聚焦其他议题，几乎像是一种刻意为之的选择。

Maybe in both projects that the power broker and Moses' shadow through the power broker, not even Moses himself, but through the power broker, that shadow falls so heavily on New York studies that it almost feels like a deliberate setting him aside to focus on other things.

但这或许也标志着历史变迁之快，纽约乃至世界变化之迅速，如果当时人们没怎么考虑他，我也不会感到惊讶。

But maybe it's also a sign of just how fast history was changing, how fast New York and the world was changing that maybe I wouldn't be surprised if the people at the time were not thinking about him too much.

要知道，纽约是个快节奏的城市。

Know, New York is a fast moving city.

它总是在不断变化和转型。

It's always changing and transforming itself.

曾经对它至关重要的事物，转眼间就成了奶奶唠叨的往事，而你只会敷衍地应付几句。

And things that were incredibly important and vital to it at one point become the thing that your grandma's telling you about that you're like, yeah, yeah, whatever, whatever.

我们不再处理那个问题了。

We don't deal with that anymore.

我在想这是否就是七十年代时这座城市的感觉，那个罗伯特·老鼠（卡通动物版的他，形象是一只驼鹿），那个罗伯特或罗伯特·老鼠，那会是另一个版本。

And I wonder if that was the way the city felt at the time in the seventies, that Robert Mouses, the cartoon animal version of him where he's a moose, that Robert or Robert Mouses, that would be the other one.

罗伯特·摩西，可能在当时已经让人觉得是老新闻了。

That Robert Moses, maybe he felt like old news at that time.

这个嘛，我也不太清楚。

And it I don't know.

也许需要另一代人阅读《权力经纪人》来重新确立他的统治地位。

Maybe it took another generation of reading the power broker to reassert his his dominance.

我知道这很奇怪。

I know it's a strange thing.

公众人物及其记忆的流行程度也会像其他事物一样起起落落。

It's the way that public figures and their memories kinda go in and out of fashion as well just as everything else does.

但仅仅因为罗伯特·摩斯是我们生活和思考纽约时的中心，因为

But just because Robert Moses is the center of our lives and our thinking about New York because

一直都是这样。

All the time.

我很少有一天不想到这件事。

It's rare I spend a day where I don't think about it.

如果要你根据经验来判断，我们并非专家。

If you were to put this in, just just from the experience, like, we're not experts.

我们只是粉丝，而且是投入其中的粉丝。

We're just, like, fans, and we're, you know, like, invested fans in this.

你会将这场危机的任何部分归咎于罗伯特·摩西吗？

Would you place any of this crisis at the feet of Robert Moses?

比如，你认为他有责任承担其中任何部分吗？或者，即使这部电影或这本书没有呈现，是否有些部分与他有关？

Like, is there any part of this that you think he is responsible for or, you know, like, is a part of this that even if it's not presented in this movie or this book?

我很好奇你对罗马人的看法，不过既然你如此友善地询问我，我会先说说我的观点。

I'm curious to get your take on a Roman, but first, I'll give my take because you so kindly asked me.

我很感激。

I appreciate it.

我认为确实如此，罗伯特·摩西在世时，城市中发生的许多事情与他无关。

That I I think so, certainly, that Robert Moses there's so much in the city that was going on that was not related to Robert Moses when he was around.

就像《权力经纪人》让他看起来如此核心，但同时，垃圾收集这类事却完全没被提及。

It like, the power broker makes him seem so central, but at the same time, garbage pickup doesn't really get mentioned Totally.

在《权力经纪人》这本书里。

In the power broker.

而这是纽约市三大重要服务之一。

And that is one of the three vital services of New York City.

就像警察、消防、垃圾清运一样。

It's like police, fire, garbage pickup.

供水也算在内。

Water is on there too.

也许这就是四大基本公共服务。

Maybe that's the four vital services.

关于紧缩措施最耐人寻味的一点，就是围绕教育是否属于基本公共服务、是否必要的争论。

And that's one of the curious things about the austerity measures was the argument over whether education is a vital public service or not, whether it's necessary or not.

但垃圾清运绝对是，因为只要垃圾两天没人收，整座城市就会变得污秽不堪。

But certainly garbage pickup is because when if the garbage doesn't get picked up for a couple days, the city is disgusting.

简直就像个垃圾坑。

Like, it's a it's it's like a pit.

实在太可怕了。

It's just horrible.

但《权力掮客》里没提这事，因为这完全不是他涉及的领域。

And but it doesn't get mentioned to the power broker because it wasn't a thing he was involved with at all.

但要记住，城市不仅仅只有大型建设项目。

But keeping in mind that that there's more to the city than just massive construction projects.

你得想象，他所做的那些事——将城市优先事项从内部服务和居民出行转向建设逃离或穿越城市的通道，以及他如何通过削减公共交通资金来扶持私人交通，还有他拒绝偿还城市桥梁债券，导致这些过路费永远无法用于其他城市需求。

You have to imagine that the things he did in terms of moving the city's priorities away from internal services and travel for residents and towards the construction of ways to get out of the city or through the city and ways that he starved public transit of funding for private transit and the ways that he refused to pay off the bonds for the city bridges so that those tolls could never go to other city needs.

这些钱只会永远回流到三区管理局，至少可以说，他正在建立或助长那些让纽约市变得更难居住的条件，这才是问题的核心。

They would just always go back to the Triborough Authority that he, at the very least, was setting up or contributing to the conditions that were leading to what was making it harder to live in New York City, which is what this really comes down to.

如果城市更宜居，这些服务本就不必要，你知道，这也加剧了城市日常可支配资金的匮乏。

The services would not be necessary if the city was easier to live in, you know, if was also contributing to the city's just lack of spending cash on a daily basis.

你知道吗？

You know?

你不能仅靠Tribro桥的过路费来运营一座城市，但如果需要的话，或许能勉强维持几天。

You can't run a city on the tolls on the Tribro Bridge, but you could probably, like, keep it afloat for a couple days if you needed to.

我觉得你说得对。

I think that's right.

我认为他那种将部落当局的小生意与纽约日常运营开支隔离分开的能力。

I think his sort of ability to sequester and isolate this little, like, business of the tribal authority and keep it away from the general operating expenses of New York.

而且，如果你不是如此痴迷于道路建设，以及较小程度上的公园，真的没有理由不认为这些收入本可以用来支持公共交通或其他服务，并意识到这是纽约的一部分收入来源，纽约应该以最合适的方式利用它。

And there's there's really no reason why if you just weren't so obsessed with roads and, to a lesser extent, parks, that you wouldn't think that this money coming in, could not support public transit or other services and just realize this is an income stream that is part of of New York, and New York should use it as it best sees fit.

而罗伯特·摩西制定了所有法律并掌控一切，这样他就能决定这些资金的去向，以及如何创建这些'随时可开工'的项目来获取联邦资金。

Whereas Robert Moses wrote all the laws and controlled everything so that he got to see where that money went to and how to create these shovel ready projects to get from the feds.

而且，你知道，可以说，如果人们能够接触到那笔资金并将其用于其他用途，也许效果就不会那么好。

And, you know, like, you could say that, you know, maybe that wouldn't have worked as well had he, you know, like, people been able to get to that money and use it for other things.

但是，是的，如果他没有得逞那就太好了。

But, yeah, that would be great if he didn't get his way.

而且，你知道，也许就不会修建那几条高速公路，也不会有那么多资金在系统中流动。

And, you know, maybe a few different highways wouldn't have been built and some money wouldn't have flowed through the system.

但再次强调，如果把其中一小部分资金投入地铁系统，后来就不会出现地铁系统的崩溃，而这正是七十年代这场危机的关键部分。

But that, again, like, if fractions of that had been devoted to the subway system, we wouldn't have the breakdown of the subway system later on, which is a huge part of this crisis in the seventies.

我认为这其中有很多事情，你知道，他并不需要对60亿美元的赤字负责。

And so much of this that I think, you know, he's not responsible for $6,000,000,000 of deficit.

但如果他能全面考虑纽约和纽约市民的健康与福祉，并真正将其置于他心灵的核心位置。

But had he thought in the totality about the health and welfare of New York and New Yorkers and really had that at the center of his, like, his heart and soul.

这个地方本可以避免这种情况的。

This place really could have avoided this.

我的意思是，这需要不同的系统结构，但我觉得他足够聪明，如果他真的关心这些事情，他应该能想出解决办法。

I mean, like, it would require a different structure of of system, but I feel like he was smart enough that he could figure that out if he just cared about these things.

所以我很大程度上认为...我的意思是，很难倒带重来，看看如果他真的成为一个为纽约着想的团队合作者，历史会如何发展。

And so I would put a lot I mean, it's hard to, you know, run the tape back and see how history would have played out had he, you know, been a true New Yorker team player and cared about

正如罗伯特·卡罗所说，你无法断言没有罗伯特·摩西的纽约是否会更好。

As Robert Caro says, you can't say if New York would be a better city without Robert Moser.

会是另一座城市。

Would be different city.

一座不同的城市。

A different city.

你知道吗？

You know?

但我确实认为，原本有很大机会可以变得更好。

But I do think that there's a good chance it could have been actually better.

如果他拥有所有这些权力和能力去建设、创造和成就事业，并且还能从整体上考虑这座城市，关心城市中各个群体的方方面面。

If he had all those powers and all that faculty to build and create and make things, and also thought about the city as a whole and cared about all the different aspects of who is in the city.

我认为这座城市本可以利用手头的工具来改善状况，甚至可能完全避免这场危机的发生。

I think that there was a tool at the disposal of the city to make this better and maybe not have this crisis happen at all.

而罗伯特·摩西本可以成为那个工具。

And Robert Moses could have been that tool.

你明白吗？

You know?

你说到点子上了，罗曼，我也忘了这点——因为我太关注那些实体的、有形的东西了，你知道的，道路、隧道、桥梁、公园，但你提到他确实参与立法了。

You put your finger on something, Roman, too, that I had forgotten about because I'm so focused on the physical, the tangible, you know, roads, tunnels, bridges, parks, that you're right that you mentioned he wrote the laws.

纽约的问题之一在于，未经州政府批准，它无法提高某些税收。

And one of New York's problems was that it could not raise certain taxes unless the state gave it approval.

可以说，纽约之所以固守原有运作方式是有制度性原因的，而这些法律至少部分是由他负责制定的。

Like, there were institutional reasons that New York was kind of stuck in doing things the way it was, and he was responsible for at least some of those laws.

我的意思是，他参与了纽约州宪法的起草。

I mean, he wrote the state constitution for New York.

对吧？

Right?

所以，他对此确实负有直接责任，即便仅从这一点来看。

So so he is he is somewhat responsible for it directly, even even just from that.

而且我认为你是对的。

And I think you're right.

如果他当初制定那些法律时，少考虑些如何为自己未来掌权预留后路，多些像书中开篇那个我们愿意相信的、更理想主义的摩西——即便我们不完全认同他的所有理念——那么或许纽约仍会陷入困境，但至少能掌握摆脱困境的手段，而不至于让矛盾如此戏剧性地爆发。

If he had been writing that those laws less to an eye of how do I create little loopholes for myself in the future for for doing powerful things and more from a point of view of that earlier Moses that we wanna believe in from the beginning of the book who is more idealistic, know, even if we don't agree with all of his ideals, then perhaps the city would have still found itself in a tight spot, but would have had the tools to wriggle out of that tight spot without things coming to a head so dramatically and so explosively.

不过换个角度想想，罗曼。

On the other hand, think about it this way, Roman.

如果没有那场危机，我们今天这期节目还能聊些什么呢？

If there hadn't been that crisis, what would we be talking about on this episode today?

我知道。

I know.

你总不会做一整期节目讲纽约如何平稳度过七十年代的财政风波吧。

You're not gonna do a whole episode on how New York sailed through the seventies fiscal bumpiness.

你知道吗？

You know?

而五十年后，我们可能永远不会相遇。

And fifty years later, we would have never met.

是啊。

Yeah.

那倒是真的。

That's true.

所以从某种意义上说，一切其实都朝着最好的方向发展了。

So really, in a way, everything worked out for the best.

没错。

Yeah.

确实如此。

That's true.

嘿。

Hey.

重温《权力掮客》并观看这部电影《堕落之城》很有趣。

It was fun revisiting the power broker and and watching this movie, drop dead city.

如果你还没看过，我强烈推荐你去看看。

If you haven't watched already, I really recommend you check it out.

至少，光是听听七十年代纽约人说话的方式，就已经是世界上最美妙的事了。

If nothing else, just to hear that New Yorkers talking in the nineteen seventies is like the greatest thing in the world.

是的，这太棒了。

And, yeah, this is great.

非常感谢你，艾略特，能再次加入我们。

Thank you so much, Elliot, for for rejoining us.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

任何时候你想聊聊纽约以及它可能变得多么肮脏，请一定叫上我。

Anytime you wanna talk about New York and how grimy it can get, please have me on.

我会非常感激的。

I would really appreciate it.

《Drop Dead City》将于11月14日在视频点播平台上线。

Drop dead city comes out on VOD on November 14.

如果你住在纽约，接下来会有多场放映活动。

And if you live in New York, there are a bunch of screenings coming up.

更多信息请访问dropdeadcity,themovie.com。

You can find out more at dropdeadcity,themovie.com.

如果你对1970年代的纽约感兴趣，但还没听过我们关于《权力掮客》的解析系列，那可别错过。

And if you're interested in nineteen seventies New York but never got around to listening to our power broker breakdown series, then do yourself a favor.

翻到99% Invisible播客2023年12月的节目列表，每次看到《权力掮客》就点开听听。

Scroll back up in the 99 p I feed to December 2023 and hit play every time you see the words the power broker.

无论你是否同步阅读原著都能享受其中，我和艾略特还邀请了许多重磅嘉宾，包括柯南·奥布莱恩、AOC、皮特·布蒂吉格，以及罗伯特·卡罗本人。

You can enjoy it whether you're reading along or not, and Elliot and I talk with a bunch of great guests, including Conan O'Brien, AOC, Pete Buttigieg, and the man himself, Robert Caro.

本期节目由我和伊莎贝尔·安吉尔制作，音乐由天鹅真实乐队创作，混音由马丁·冈萨雷斯完成。

This episode was produced by me and Isabelle Angel, music by Swan Real, Mix by Martin Gonzalez.

99% Invisible的制片人是凯西·图。

99% of visible's producer is Kathy Too.

我们的高级编辑是德莱尼·霍尔。

Our senior editor is Delaney Hall.

库尔特·波勒斯塔德担任数字总监。

Kurt Polestad is the digital director.

团队其他成员包括克里斯·巴鲁布、杰森·德莱昂、埃米特·菲茨杰拉德、克里斯托弗·约翰逊、薇薇安·李、拉克什玛·道恩、雅各布·梅迪纳·格里森、凯莉·普莱姆、乔·罗森伯格，以及我，罗曼·马尔斯。

The rest of the team includes Chris Barube, Jason De Leon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Leigh, Lakshma Dawn, Jacob Medina Gleason, Kelly Prime, Joe Rosenberg, and me, Roman Mars.

99%可见的标识由斯特凡·劳伦斯设计。

The 99% of his logo was created by Stefan Lawrence.

我们现在隶属于天狼星XM播客家族，总部位于奥克兰美丽的上城区潘多拉大厦，往北六个街区。

We are part of the SiriusXM podcast family now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora Building in beautiful uptown Oakland, California.

你可以在所有常规社交媒体平台找到我们的节目，还有我们自己的Discord服务器，在那里我们会就宪法法律展开有趣的讨论。

You can find the show on all the usual social media sites as well as our own Discord server where we have fun discussions about constitutional law.

再次强调，我们会讨论建筑、电影、音乐等各种精彩内容。

Again, we have conversations about architecture, movies, music, and all kinds of good stuff.

这就是我最近经常出没的地方。

It's where I'm hanging out most these days.

你可以在99网站上找到Discord服务器的链接，以及《99%隐形》和《权力掮客解析》的所有往期节目。

You can find a link to the Discord server as well as every past episode of 99 p I and the power broker breakdown at 99.

我们也可以聊聊费城。

Can have you talk about Philadelphia too.

我完全可以吐槽费城

I can insult Philadelphia just

我告诉你。

I can tell you.

真不敢相信我们整期节目都没让我吐槽费城。

I can't believe we got through a whole episode without me insulting Philadelphia.

你们有世界一流的艺术博物馆。

You've got a world class art museum.

世界级的。

World class.

还在台阶上立了尊塞巴斯蒂安·沙洛姆的雕像。

You stick a statue of Sebastian Shalom on the steps.

你在做什么？

What are you doing?

费城，你在做什么？

Philly, what are you doing?

你在做什么，费城？

What are you doing, Philly?