马修·麦康纳：如何重新爱上你的生活

我喜欢确定性和自我之间的那种平衡。

I like the balance between certainty and selfishness.

我这么说吧。

I'll say this.

我一辈子都在跟谦逊这个概念较劲。小时候，尤其是在教会里，我听到的谦逊总带着一种低头认输的感觉，四十多年来，只要一提到谦逊，我就本能地缩起肩膀、低下头。我们家也总是压着人，不让你太高调，但别把自己踩得太狠。

I had a I've always had a I've had a lifelong wrestling match with understanding humility because, so I was raised and maybe it was how humble came across, how I heard it coming across, maybe through the church that there was a sense of humility for forty five years, my shoulders would draw and my head would get down when I would be humble, or if I was too high, we were always brought down the ground in our family, but don't beat on your toes.

你有没有过开车到停车标志前，停了下来，明明轮到对方先走？

You ever pulled up to a stop sign and and it you pull up and it's it's their turn.

人家比你早到，你停下了，他们却等着你。

They were there before you, and you pull up and they wait.

然后你心里说：‘你走啊。’

And, like, go.

你明明在催对方走，

And, know, you were go.

可突然之间，你们就陷入了一种微妙的互动。

And all of a sudden, you're in an interaction.

你这叫假谦虚，说今天让所有人都先走。

You're like your false humility of saying, I'm just gonna let everyone go today.

你这是在堵交通。

You're stopping traffic.

你这么一让，反而让我们多花了时间，这根本不是谦虚，是装模作样。

You've just taken given it cost us more time by just it it's gone to a false modesty.

我曾经有四十多年，一直搞不懂什么是真正的谦虚，总是失去信心。

And I I lost I would lose confidence in my understanding of humility for forty for forty something years.

为了对抗这种误解，我就反过来过度自信，甚至变得傲慢，不是简单的自大，而是真的过了头。

So to battle that, I would come out and overcompensate my confidence into some arrogance to where not that I mean, I was more than more than ego.

我一直在用这种过度的自信来补偿对谦虚的错误理解，直到我听到有人说：谦虚就是承认自己还有很多要学的东西。

I was I I I, and I'm responsible, I'm doing this to comp overcompensate for that false understanding of humility until I heard the definition of humility being admitting we have more to learn.

还有人前几天告诉我，谦虚就是极度诚实。

Or someone told me the other day being being extremely honest.

那一刻我突然明白了，这才对上了。

And I was like, oh, now I can grab ahold of that.

我的肩膀还是挺得笔直。

My shoulders are still back.

我能明白什么是谦逊了。

I can understand to be humble.

我的下巴也抬得高高的。

My chin's up.

我承认，我还得多学很多东西。

And I admit I got a whole lot more to learn.

没错，我是不是特别喜欢掌握信息？

And yes, do I love to be in the know?

当然了，我就是喜欢知道得清清楚楚。

You're damn right I love being in the know.

我还想了解自己不知道的东西。

I also wanna be in the know about what I don't know.

现在我一边走一边看，终于明白了谦逊的真意。

Now I'm understanding humility while I'm walking and I'm seeing an opportunity.

那是个机会，我抓住了，立刻上前自我介绍。

There's the gap, get it, bam, took it, introduced myself.

原来那个人的意思是这个，结果两年后，我们一块儿写了部电影，现在正一起拍呢。

Oh, that person meant this, boom, two years later, we've written a movie, we're making it together.

就是因为那个瞬间，那天晚上我看到他快走远了，赶紧说：我想跟西蒙聊聊这事，就这么成了。

That's because of that moment, that night where I saw that gap and they were walking out the door and I said, I wanna talk to Simon about this, bam.

如果我当时真懂那种谦逊，我就会说：不，不，不，我可不能抢在前头。

Where if I'd have been that understanding of prior humility, I'd no, no, no, me go ahead.

也许我们以后还会再相遇。

Maybe we'll cross again.

多年前，空军的总军士长鲍勃·盖勒曾说过，我特别喜欢这个说法，和你讲的完全一致：别把谦逊和软弱搞混了。

Bob Gaylor who was the chief master sergeant of the air force many years ago he said and I love this definition and it's very consistent with what you said which is don't confuse humility with meekness.

谦逊，就是愿意接纳别人的想法。

Humility is being open to the ideas of others.

没错。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

你是在哪里学到 humility 的意思是，你永远有更多需要学习的东西？

And where did you learn that humility was you have always more to learn?

这个观念是从哪儿来的？

Where did that come from?

我这一生明白了很多事，我想对很多人来说，这其实源于我们自己对这个词的理解。

So much I know in my life and I think maybe for a lot of people is our own definition of the word.

是的。

Yeah.

你懂的吧？

You know?

我一直觉得，等等，不对劲。

I always was like, wait a minute.

人人都在说要谦虚，可没人喜欢被羞辱。

Everyone's preaching be humble, but no one likes being humiliated.

有些词我们用得不对，每个人对同一个词的理解都不一样，这跟我们成长的经历有关，这个词在不同人心里意思也不一样。

There's these words that we malaprop or each one of us has a different prescription as definition or our experience of how we grew up with that word meaning, you know, it takes on a different definition.

对我而言，有时候就是突然想通了。

And sometimes I know for me, it's just a click.

只要我找到了那个正确的理解，哦，这可不是错的理解。

If I can get the right definition of click, oh, and that's not a false definition.

这是真正能让我用起来、往前走的定义。

That's actually one I can constructively use and go forward.

啊，我明白了。

Oh, oh, I get it.

我可能为一件事纠结好几年，糊里糊涂的，可就在那一瞬间，全想通了。

I can battle over something for years and be confused and confounded in one little click.

你刚说什么？

What'd you say?

再说一遍。

Say that again.

啊，现在我明白整个方程式了。

Ah, now I get the whole equation.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这是个很好的例子。

This is a great example.

这些词，你说得对。

These words, you're right.

你知道，问题在于我们总是被老师、父母、同事、上司反复告诉：要谦虚，要自信，要谦虚，要自信。但正如你所说，这些词的意思就像肩膀一上一下、一上一下，让人不断玩这种无聊的游戏。可一旦你找到一个准确的定义——比如保持开放心态，意识到自己永远有东西要学——那你自然就会挺直肩膀、竖起耳朵。

You know, the problem the problem is it's like you we're constantly being told by teachers, parents, you know, colleagues, bosses, be humble, be confident, be humble, be confident, be humble but those words as you said they mean shoulders up, shoulders down, shoulders up, shoulders down and you find yourself playing this silly game but when you find a definition that just allows you to manage your behavior appropriately which is be open to the ideas of others you always have more to learn instantly you show up shoulders up and ears out.

对。

Right.

这并不是傲慢，而是自信。

It's not arrogance it is confidence.

对。

Right.

而且这本身就是谦逊的表现，因为你心里会想：‘这挺有意思，能再讲讲吗？’

And it is humble because you're like oh that's interesting tell me more of that.

对

Yeah.

我觉得你说得对

I think I think you're right.

而且我会反过来照镜子，对自己说：‘你说得没错。’

And I and boomerang back to be able look in the mirror and go, you're right.

是的

Yeah.

我们在定义谦逊或无私的时候，常常忘了这一部分。

That part we like to forget in our definition of humility or selflessness.

没错

Yep.

我觉得，我们正是在这一点上曲解了‘自私’这个词的含义。

You know, I think that's where we bastardize the the definition of selfish.

真正的自私，我觉得并不是指你想干嘛就干嘛，哪怕置邻居于危险之中。

True selfishness, I don't think means do whatever you want at, you know, at your neighbor's peril.

那不算自私。

That's not selfish.

那其实是最自私的行为，因为如果你把邻居害惨了，等你出远门的时候，家里遭贼，邻居肯定不愿意帮你报警。

It's actually not most selfish because if it's at your neighbor's peril, when you're out of town, someone's robbing your house, your neighbor's less less intended to go, hey.

我是说，他们不会说'我去叫警察'。

I'm gonna call the cops Yeah.

为了我的邻居。

For my neighbor.

我觉得，在照顾好自己的同时，也通过自己的选择去照顾邻居，这反而更自私。

I'd say that's more selfish to take care of your neighbor with your choice as well as taking care of your own.

是为了孩子的未来，今天做出一些牺牲和投入，还是今天彻底挥霍、耗尽所有资源，让他们一无所有？

Is is investing induce that making sacrifices today for our children's future more selfish or is to absolutely whore and rampage all our resources today so they'll be left to nothing?

到底哪个更自私呢？

That which one's more selfish?

如果真在乎孩子，我觉得第一种才更自私。

I would say the first is more selfish, if you love your kids.

我的意思是，你刚才提到无限游戏。

I mean, again, you talk about infinite game.

很多事情其实取决于你能看得多远。

So much of it's based on how can we how far out can we project?

你能再解释一下，为什么这反而更自私吗？

Say more about how it's more selfish.

孩子嘛，你当然爱他们。

Like kids, you love them.

对吧？

Right?

你心里是挂念着孩子的。

You give a damn about your kids.

如果你愿意今天牺牲一些资源，或者放弃一些本来想做的事。

If you're going to make a sacrifice today of some resources you have or maybe sacrifice some time of something that you wanna do.

你其实很想现在做，但也可以改天再做。

You could do it another time even though you really wanna do it right now.

也许就花点时间，好吧。

Just maybe spend time Okay.

陪陪孩子。

With your kid.

可能就是这样。

Maybe that's it.

也许就是这么实际。

Maybe it's that practical.

你牺牲了这些，希望多花点时间陪伴他们，能帮助他们将来成长为更健康的大人，因为他们从小得到了高质量的陪伴。

You're gonna sacrifice that And hints and hope, spending that time, more time with them will help them become more healthy adults as they go out into the world on their own in the future because of the time they got quality time they got to spend with their body.

或者从更宽广的角度看，你现在用掉的资源，明明知道是透支未来——比如我女儿那一代，或者她孩子那一代，将来会因此受苦。

Or if it's more magnanimous, you get your a resource that we have right now in our life that we're using up to go, man, you know, the the the the we're getting ours now, but boy, we're depleting the future for for my daughter's generation when she becomes or her kid's generation.

对。

Mhmm.

但如果我现在做出一些牺牲，他们将来会拥有更多。

But if I sacrifice some now, they'll have more later.

我意思是，到底哪一种才更自私呢？

So which one's more selfish is what I'm saying?

这方面的研究是有的，政治家们经常拿这个说事，比如‘为了孩子，我们该怎么做？’‘为了未来，我们该保护什么？’但用这种框架做决定，从来没人能选对，因为我们总是盯着眼前。不过研究也表明，当你清楚自己从哪里来，反而更容易做出长远的决定——因为你不想辜负那些为你付出过的人，不想让他们的牺牲白费。如果你知道父母、祖父母为你做过哪些牺牲，受益于他们的付出，你就会想延续这份传承，而这恰恰让你更能做出明智的选择。

There's data on this that when people invoke, you hear politicians do it all the time, you know, when we invoke the right thing to do for our children, what would you do for our children, what about the future preserving the future and nobody ever makes the right decision with that framework because we always think about the here and now but there's data on this that when people have a sense of where they come from you're actually better at making long term decisions because you don't want to let down those that came before you, you don't want to make their sacrifices go in vain So if you know about the sacrifices your parents, your parents' parents made on your behalf or that benefited you, you wanna uphold that legacy and that actually makes you a better decision making.

所以，真正把自己看作是延续的一部分。

So actually seeing yourself in a continuum.

对，活在这样的延续里，没错。

And in the continuum, yes.

如果你这么想，那这难道不是更自私吗？

If you do that, isn't that ultimately more selfish?

我这么跟你说吧，我牧师觉得我就像在推一块巨大的方石头上陡坡，搞这种‘自私’的重新定义。

Or I'll ask you this because my my pastor thinks I'm poking pushing a big square rock up a big steep hill with this redefinition of selfishness.

我只是想把它拿回来，说：不，不是那样的。

I'm I'm trying to reclaim it to go no way.

我们所做的一切都应该更自私一点。

Everything we do should be more selfish.

我们应该更以自我为中心。

We should be more full of ourselves.

我们应该看得更长远。

We should project further.

只要我们能相信，现在所做的一切终会有回报，哪怕那回报可能很久以后才到来，甚至我们这一生都等不到。

If we can just believe that the rewards of our what we do now, if we can project further out for when we may get them, and we may not even get them in this lifetime.

是的。

Yeah.

也许是我们的孩子，也许是下一代，也许是四代之后，也说不定。

Maybe it's our kids, maybe it's the next generation, maybe it's four generations or not.

这种延迟满足，难道不是更自私的表现吗？

Isn't that delayed gratification a more selfish act?

如果我扮演你的牧师，我觉得你是在玩一个悖论。

If I play the role of your pastor, I think that you are playing with the paradox

你做不到

You can't

没法选边站，因为这本来就是个悖论，对吧？

choose a side because it's a paradox right?

每一天，你既是独立的个体，也是某个群体的一员——你是你自己，同时也是团队、家庭、教会，或者任何其他集体中的一分子。每天你都要面对大大小小的抉择：是优先考虑自己，哪怕牺牲群体？还是优先考虑群体，哪怕牺牲自己？有两种观点：一种是先保护好自己，才能更好地帮助群体；另一种是先保护群体，他们才会反过来帮你。你之前还举了邻居的例子。

So every moment of every day you are both an individual and a member of a group You're you and you're a member of a team, family, a church whatever it is and every day you're confronted with small or big decisions do I put myself first at the sacrifice of the group or do I put the group first at the sacrifice of myself And there's two schools of thought, protect yourself so you can help the group, protect the group so they can help you, you made the neighbour analogy.

但现实是，这两者其实并存，有时还互相矛盾，不可能总是完美协调，而这正是做人最难的地方。

But the reality is it's both and it's sometimes paradoxical and it doesn't always line up and this is part of the difficulty of being human.

所以要说哪个更自私、哪个更无私，答案其实是：两者都是。

So I think to say that's more selfish or that's more selfless the answer is yes.

无私的行为最终也会让你受益，自私的行为也可能间接帮到别人。关键在于这个悖论、这个平衡——目标不是让天平过度偏向任何一边。因为无私和自我牺牲是两回事：你一味付出，把自己掏空，睡不好觉，满身压力，只为了当个‘完美的人’，那不是无私，那是把自己逼到绝路。

Like selfless acts will benefit you and selfish acts may benefit them I think it's the paradox the juggle the goal is not to let the scale tip too far in either direction because there's also a difference between being selfless and martyring yourself where you're giving and giving and giving so much of yourself where you get no sleep, all you have is stress because you wanna be the best person in the world.

这种做法既伤身，又傻得离谱。

That's self destructive and that's just stupid.

所以，有时候说‘不’，反而是对整体最负责任的选择。

And so saying no sometimes is the best the best thing you can do for the greater good.

待人如待己。

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

像爱邻居一样爱自己。

Love yourself as your neighbor.

这本质上还是在回归自我。

That's directly just going back to the self ish.

这是一种接纳。

It's accepting.

接纳自己即使身处群体、社区、社会、教会或团队之中，依然是独立的个体。想调和这个矛盾，其实人们写整本书都在争论哪一方更重要，但我觉得这没什么意义——答案是两者都要。你只能通过自我反思来衡量自己是否太自私，也只能通过观察他人的反馈来判断自己是否足够无私。要平衡这种矛盾，关键就是不断自我反省，同时主动向他人寻求反馈。

It's accepting that even when I'm a part of a group, community, a society, a church, a team, even in those moments that I'm a part of a whole, am also me and I think to try and reconcile the paradox, know, people can write whole books about one side versus the other and I think it's a fruitless exercise, the answer is both and the only way you know you're doing a good job is you can only check-in on your selfishness by checking in with yourself, you can only know if you are doing a good job on selflessness by checking in with others and I think the way you reconcile the paradox is by constantly checking in with others and constantly checking in with yourself that you get feedback from others.

你还好吗？

Are you okay?

谢谢你一直陪在我身边，而不是说我是个自私的混蛋。

Thank you for being there for me versus you selfish asshole.

对吧？

Right?

而且你要去确认，如果你只关注自己，从不关心别人，就很容易变得极度自私，甚至有害。

And check because if you only check-in with yourself and never check-in with others, you run the risk of being costically, toxically selfish.

对。

Yep.

而过度牺牲自己，也是一种毒害。

Versus toxically selfless.

对。

Yep.

这种做法其实是在伤害你自己。

Which is toxic to yourself.

所以我觉得，作为社会性生物，我们常常忘了自己其实有反馈机制。也许正因如此，你才会倡导‘健康的自私’，因为你比大多数人更常自我反思。

So I think that as social animals we forget that we have feedback mechanisms and I think perhaps this is why you've become an advocate for positive selfishness is I think you have a practice of checking in with yourself more than most.

明白了。

Okay.

很多人都这么跟我说过。

I've been told that many times.

我猜你无意中过度自信，是因为你只顾着自我审视，却忘了关注别人的反馈。

And I would guess that where you've over indexed on arrogance by accident is because you were checking with yourself and forgot to check-in with others.

对。

Yeah.

那时候，我的自私变成了绝对的确定。

That's when my selfish thing turned into certainty.

没错。

Right.

而当你过分谦卑时，是因为你太听从你爸爸或其他人的意见，反而忽略了自我觉察——最基本的就是直觉判断。

Where you humbled yourself excessively it's because you took the counsel of your dad or others too much at the loss of checking them with self which at the most basic level is gut check.

最根本的就是，这感觉对吗？

The most basic level is does this feel right?

是的。

Yeah.

你有培养过自我觉察的习惯吗？

Did you cultivate checking in with yourself?

比如说，你是什么时候开始写日记的？

Like what age did you start journaling for example?

我从17岁开始认真写日记。

Started journaling at sincerely journaling at 17.

明白了。

Okay.

17岁那年发生了什么，让你决定要把生活记录下来？

What happened at the age of 17 that you said I'm gonna start writing it down my life?

这其实是一种自我反思的方式。

Well Which is a checking in practice.

没错，就是这样。

That's what it is.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

生活过得特别顺，那时候在高中，我就是那种……嗯，挺出风头的男生。

Things are going really well and I was, you know, I was the guy in high school who was yeah.

我挺受欢迎的。

I was popular.

是的。

Yeah.

我还拿过最帅男生奖。

I I won most handsome.

打高尔夫球时差点就能平标准杆了。

I had a four handicap in golf.

那时候我有份工作，口袋里总揣着点钱。

I had a job with some cash in my pocket.

我跟学校里一个女孩约会，但同时，我也跟橄榄球队的四分卫是铁哥们。

I was dating this girl in my school, But I was also, you know, fresh friend good friends with the quarterback of the football team.

但我也是少数几个和贝蒂·莱斯做朋友的男生之一，大家都觉得她是班上唯一一个哥特风的女同性恋。

But I was also one of the only guys that was friends with with Betty Rice who was everyone thought was the the only class gothic lesbian.

你知道的。

You know?

我还因为帮厄尼出头打过一架，那是个矮小的黑人男孩，留着一头大卷发，总被那群人欺负。

I was also the guy that got in fight because the the gang tried to pick on Ernie, the short little black kid with the big afro, and they kept thumping him.

他是个弱者，我看不下去。

And I just was kinda he was the underdog.

但我发现，我的日子过得越来越顺了。

But I noticed that things were going well for me.

说来奇怪，我觉得 partly 得归功于我的朋友罗布·本德勒，他是我在美术课上认识的第一个朋友，因为我性格外向，周末总爱出去玩、追女孩。

For some reason, I think it partially do with my buddy Rob Bendler, who because I was such an extrovert and on the weekends would love to just go party and chase girls, he was the my first friend that I met in art class.

他是个瘦弱的犹太小子，个子才一百二十磅，是他带我走进了另一个世界。

And he was a hundred and twenty pound wet Jewish kid who he introduced me to, hey.

你周末晚上看过电影吗？

You ever watch movies on a weekend night?

你平时看书吗？

You ever read a book?

所以我们成了好朋友。

So we became buddies.

我妈妈管这叫黑白配。

I it was great because my mom would call it Salt and Pepper.

每到周五晚上，我会带他去乡下的烧烤派对，喝啤酒、跳舞、吃烤肉、听震天响的音乐。

I would bring him on Friday night to our tailgates in the country where we drink beer at the kegger and dance and taste grills and listen to loud music.

到了周六晚上，我们就去他家看电影，聊上一两部，他还给我介绍了哲学类的书什么的。

And then on Saturday night, we go to his house and watch a movie or two and talk about he introduced me to a philosopher book or something.

我们打打乒乓球，随便聊聊。

We play ping pong and just hang out.

他让我意识到自己内心其实早就有这种反思，只是我以前没察觉。

And so he invited an introspection that I didn't know was there, but I had already.

于是我开始写下来，琢磨为什么事情会这么顺利。

So I start writing things down about like, why are things going well?

我后来意识到，我之所以认真准备功课，其实是为了让爸妈开心。

Well, I noticed in ways that I was handling preparation for my grades so I could make mom and dad happy.

其实我对成绩压根不在乎。

I didn't give a damn my grades.

成绩好不好，根本不是为了让爸妈高兴。

Doesn't need to make a's make mom and dad happy.

只要他们开心，我的日子就轻松多了。

If they're happy, then my life's easier.

这样我才能得到更多我想做的事。

Then I'm getting more of what I want.

我的宵禁时间就往后推。

My curfew gets extended.

我可以多出去玩。

I can go play more.

我也有了更多的自由。

I got more freedom.

所以我搞到了那款游戏。

So I got that game.

我不记得自由钟是怎么裂的，但我通过了那场考试。

I don't remember how the Liberty Bell cracked, but I passed that test.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

所以我慢慢想明白了。

So I'm figuring this out.

那时候我还注意到，高中会考这种东西根本没所谓。

I'm also noticing at this time, oh, this high school GED shit don't mean nothing, bro.

只要考个够格的分数，能上大学就行。

Just gotta make some good enough grade to get into a college.

我十七岁的时候也发现，大学其实也没那么重要。

And I also noticed at that time at 17, college don't mean nothing either, bro.

所以我在十七岁那会儿就开始想得更远，把想法写下来。

So I started to kind of think past that even at 17 and write things down.

在我人生那段时期，我觉得这些方法管用，而且我相信它们会一直有效。

In my life, I was like, these are working and these will I believe these will continue to work.

一年后，我被派到澳大利亚去拍外景。

Now cut to a year later, I'm exchange shooting Australia.

我迷路了，很孤单，带着那个缺陷，那个女孩，口袋里只有四十五块，没有宵禁，门门全优，哔——

I'm lost, lonely, that handicap, the girl, the $45 in my pocket, the no curfew, the straight a's, beep.

红灯，停下。

Red light, stop.

我身处在国家中部，周围荒无人烟，寄宿在一个特别古怪的家庭里，一个人孤零零的。

I'm in the middle of the country and bump up nowhere with a very odd family and I'm all alone.

我没有罗布这个哥们儿可以一起瞎混，周末晚上也没人聊天。

I don't have my buddy Rob to hang out with, talk about on Saturday night.

虽然他确实是少数几个我还会写信的人。

Although he was one of the only people I wrote.

我没有朋友，没有女朋友，也没有之前周五晚上那种优越感可以用来参考，连父母都指望不上，没人能听我倾诉。

I don't have my friends or that girlfriend or my affluence that I had on Friday night for my confidence to bounce things off, ain't even got my parents to bounce things off.

所以那时候我快疯了，基本上一个人待着。

So while I'm losing my mind over there, I'm alone basically.

我快崩溃了，但内心有个声音告诉我，这其实挺好。

I'm going mad but something in me is telling me this is good.

越艰难，

The harder this gets.

我反而渐渐感到一种自豪和尊严，一种独立感，因为我心想：每天熬过这些，将来一定会得到更大的回报。

I was finding a certain pride and honor, independence I felt like I was paying because I was like, boy, this every day I go through this is the better reward on the other side.

我不清楚这到底是什么，但我就是愿意继续相信它。

I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna keep believing that.

那时候，我是不是在骗自己，好维持一点理智？

Now was I tricking myself for partial sanity?

是的。

Yes.

我是不是靠着某种乐观在撑着？

Was I surviving on a certain optimism?

在某种程度上，这算是一种妄想吗？

Was it delusional to an extent?

是的。

Yes.

但回头想想，要不是那一年，我今天不可能站在这里搞实验室的数学工作。

But I would say in hindsight, it happened because I don't think I'd be here with the lab math if I didn't have that year.

那一年我认真地写，因为我是唯一能和自己说话的人。

I wrote in earnest in that year because I was my only friend I could talk to.

所以我给自己写了十四页的信。

So I wrote 14 page letters to me.

我还给自己回了十六页的信。

I returned 16 page letters to me.

我当时在进行一场特别棒的苏格拉底式对话，现在回头看，真是笑死人了，西蒙。

I was in a Socratic dialogue that was awesome, but I look back at it now, they're hilarious, Simon.

这简直就是个迷路的孩子，满篇都是堆砌的形容词和副词。

Talk about too many adjectives and adverbs of kid who's lost.

那都是十九行一气呵成的长句，满篇都是‘ly’结尾的词和堆砌的字眼。

It was like 19 line run on sentences with more l y's and more words.

简直像在说：你都迷失了方向，可我还是坚持下来了。

It was like, oh, you're you've lost your grease, but I stuck with it.

是的。

Yeah.

我被迫去弄清楚自己到底是谁。

I was forced to figure out who the hell I was.

我不得不独自跟自己对话，没有任何外界的刺激，也没有可以信赖的信息来源，整整一年，时间足够让我熬过这段路。

I was forced to talk to myself without having any exterior stimulus or that I could trust coming to me, and it was a full year, which is a long enough time to get through the other side of it.

对。

Yeah.

我困在地狱里，连降落伞都没有。

I stayed in hell and I didn't have a parachute to pull.

你知道的，只要在那种地方待得够久，有时候真的能熬到另一边——我就是靠着这种心态挺过来的。

And as you know, if we stay in it long enough, sometimes you come out the other side, the shit I had this experience with riding green light.

是的

Yeah.

我回顾了自己的过去。

I looked at my past.

我感到羞愧。

I had shame.

我感到内疚。

I had guilt.

我感到难堪。

I had embarrassment.

头两周翻看自18岁以来写的所有日记，简直像在受罪。

The first two weeks of sitting down with my journals since I was 18 years old were hell to look at.

到了第十二天，我读到自己以前干的一些蠢事，突然笑了出来。

And then on the twelfth day, all of a sudden I got I'd read some shit I did and I went and I laughed.

接着我越看越觉得好笑，忍不住咯咯笑起来。

And all of a sudden, started looking at all the other shit I did and I started giggling.

然后我开始注意到，我以前干过的那些蠢事。

And I started noticing all the other shit I fucking did.

我心想，哦，原来这些事把你带到了今天。

I was like, oh, it got you here.

你那时候特别狂妄，还记得吗？

You that time when you were extremely arrogant.

你当时一副得意忘形的样子。

You got hung look look.

六个月后，你在一群人面前被狠狠打脸了。

Six months later, you got humbled in front of a bunch of people.

啪。

Bam.

一下子就被打回原形了。

You got brought down to the ground.

哦，你从中学到教训了。

Oh, you learned a lesson there.

哦，还有就是，我渐渐意识到，让我走到今天这一步，其实是有规律可循的。

Oh, that and I started to notice it was a science to get me to where I am.

于是我开始笑那些曾经让我觉得丢脸、羞愧和内疚的事。

So I started to laugh at those things that I was embarrassed, shamed, and guilty about.

我从17岁开始认真写日记，那一年特别难熬，之后就一直坚持，只要遇到麻烦，我就写下来。

In earnest journaling, started at 17, continued through a hard, hard year at 18, and since then has been, I write when I'm in trouble.

我慢慢明白，而且很早就说过，别只在日子过不下去的时候才拿笔。

And I've learned, and I always said early on, don't just pick up the damn pen when things are going shitty.

日子顺的时候也要拿笔，因为这里面是有方法、有科学道理的。

Pick up the pen when things are going well because there's an engineering, there's science to it.

你对不适感有一种很特别的态度，你觉得你做的每件事，都是为了过上自己想要的生活，对吧？

You have a remarkable relationship with discomfort and the idea that the things you do in your life are a mechanism to live a life you wanna live, right?

比如，你当初不是为了分数而学习，但你发现，只要成绩好，宵禁时间就放宽，爸妈也不总管你了。所以你忍受学习的痛苦，不是为了分数本身，而是为了分数带来的自由。你在澳大利亚，处境特别艰难，本可以崩溃、闹脾气，但你却用一种很特别的方式处理了它——你才17岁，却在那段难熬的时光里问自己：怎么才能主动面对这种不适？于是你把它写下来，把所有的难受都摊在纸上，直面它。

So for example you weren't necessarily motivated by grades but by getting good grades you recognise that your curfew goes up and your parents leave you alone Yep You know so you go through the discomfort of studying not for the grade but for what the grade provides Yep And you're in Australia in a very uncomfortable situation and you could have shut down, you could have acted out but this relationship you have with discomfort and your ability to project the life you want to have and that you dealt with it in a fascinating way and remember you're only 17 and I find it so fascinating that in this period of discomfort you say how do I lean into uncomfortable here, I'm gonna write it down and put my discomfort right on the page in front of me.

关于这一点，我想再补充两点。

There's two things I want to bring up on that.

我前几天翻到一篇日记，里面写的是：我的生活，与其说是改变昨天让我不舒服的事，不如说是慢慢适应了那些曾经让我难受的东西。

One is I found a journal entry I wrote the other day that I said, I've I've my life has been more getting comfortable with what I was uncomfortable with yesterday than changing what I was uncomfortable with yesterday.

咱们深入聊聊这个，这观点太棒了。

Let let's let's double click that because that's great.

重点不在于去改变让你不舒服的事，而在于学会和那种不舒服和平共处。

It's about getting comfortable with what you were uncomfortable with rather than changing the thing that makes you uncomfortable.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

不过这里有个难题，我35岁的时候发现了，到现在还在琢磨。

Now here's the challenge with that that I noticed when I was 35 and I'm still working on it.

当你有这种韧性的时候，你就成了惯犯。

When you have that sort of resilience, you're a repeat offender.

你一遍又一遍地踩进同一摊烂泥里，每次爬起来拍拍灰就走，却从不停下来问问：为什么我总踩进这摊泥？

You just keep stepping in the same pile of shit and you get up and dust yourself off instead of ever stopping to go, why do I keep stepping in that same pile?

也许当我转过生命这段路的拐角时，我会第一次往右拐。

Oh, maybe when I turn the corner of this part of the race of my life, I'll weave to the right for the first time.

不。

No.

我会一遍又一遍地踩进同样的泥坑，然后爬起来继续走。

I'll step in it over and over and over and go, get back up.

而对我来说，就像大多数人一样，我们最大的弱点其实也是我们的优势所在。

And part of that, as I think with most of us, our upfalls are actually our downfalls too.

我们最擅长的事，往往也正是生活中另一面最需要改进的地方，甚至更需要。

You know, what we're the best at is actually where we can work on the other side of the coin just as much or more in our life.

说得真好。

So good.

我确实是个屡教不改的人。

I I can be a repeat offender.

你的坚韧，反而成了你的拖累。

Your grit becomes destructive.

而从创意的角度来说，我得特别留意这一点。

And and part of that creatively is what I have to watch.

对。

Yeah.

在创意上，我的问题是我总觉得自己能搞定任何事，西蒙。

And my upfall creatively is I think I can make anything work, Simon.

没错。

Yep.

我有个想法——其实更像一个说法，而不是理论——它和你提到的‘无限游戏’以及一直冲向永恒终点的理念很契合。

I got a theory that I think I I it's a term rather than a theory, I think more, but it goes along with your infinite game projection and playing through the immortal immortal finish line.

我发现自己一直在这么做，这几年我一直在练习，慢慢摸索出一种模式，叫‘过度掌控’。

And I've noticed that I do this, and I'm and I and I've been practicing it and sort of find it working on this pattern for a few years called oversight.

我什么都想管。

I oversee everything.

人际关系也是如此。

Relationships.

我一开始并不太了解你，但对你充满敬意。

I come into this I don't know you that well, but I come into this with a great reverence for you.

我做每一个项目时，都会怀着深深的敬畏，甚至对自己也是如此。

I go into projects with a great, incredible reverence for them, even myself.

这个世界、艺术，大多数人——包括我自己——往往都未能充分发挥潜力。

And the world, the art, most people, myself included, underperform.

但我投入时那份敬畏，确实带来了改变。

But the reverence that I went into them with Mhmm.

我发现，正因为我相信它能臻于完美、超越凡俗，才从中收获了远超预期的成果。

I find that I've got so much more out of them and for me and out of the project because I thought it could be perfect and and and transcendental.

对，就是这样。

Mhmm.

它接近了天才的境界，甚至触及了先知般的领域，但始终没能达到神圣的高度。

It got close to genius, maybe even touched in the prophetic areas, but never became divine.

但若没有这份敬意，我根本不可能走到这一步。

But, oh, I wouldn't have got there if I wouldn't have come in with such reference.

是的

Mhmm.

结果你本该冲着C去，却拿到了B；要是直接冲着C，说不定能拿到F呢。

And then going, ah, you went for the a, you got the c instead of going for the c and getting the f.

好极了。

Ah, great.

就是这样。

There we go.

我觉得这种对待生活的方式挺好的：先给他人信任，带着敬意和尊重走进房间，心里想的是‘你得证明自己不配得这份敬意’，而不是带着怀疑的态度，心想‘你得证明自己值得我欣赏、值得我尊重’。

I think it's it's a nice way to approach life, which is to give people the benefit of the doubt and have such reverence and respect when you walk in the room and you say, prove to me why you are not deserving of this reverence versus coming in with a cynical attitude and be like prove to me why I should like you more, respect you more.

因为你总会找到证据，对吧？

And because you'll find the evidence, right?

如果你期待一个人了不起，你就会发现他身上处处都是卓越的证据。

Which is if you're looking for someone to be great, you'll find all the evidence of their greatness.

但如果你带着怀疑进来，那你只会看到他让你失望的种种迹象。

If you if you come in cynical, you'll find all the evidence of letting you down.

没错。

Right.

这样做其实能激励别人。

And what it does is it boosts other people up.

他们更想让你感到骄傲，而不是证明你错了。

They wanna they wanna they wanna make you proud where the rather than prove you wrong.

稍微换个话题，你能说说你职业生涯中具体做过的一件事吗？

Slight change of tack here, which is can you tell me something specific that you've done in your career?

不管它有没有商业成功都行。

It doesn't matter if it's commercially successful or not.

但只要是你在职业生涯中参与过的某个项目，如果所有项目都像这个一样，你会是世界上最幸福的人。

But any project that you've been a part of at any point in your career where if every project were like this one you'd be the happiest person alive

最近的一个，现在我说起来当然会说是最近的，因为最后做的那个总是我最喜欢的。

The latest one and without knowing it now I'm saying of course, I'm saying the latest one because the last thing I'm doing is always my favorite one I've done.

我最近做的那个项目，除了其中一个，我还做过一个我早期的项目。

Last project I've done, besides one, I had one of my first ones.

我不打算说它的名字，但过去几年我完成了一个项目，做这个项目的时候我并不投入，也不是我这辈子最喜欢的作品。

I'm not gonna say the name of it, but I just had I had a project here in the last couple of years that I finished that was not my that into doing it, it was not my favorite one I've ever done.

我之前做的每一个项目，当我做完上一个的时候，都会觉得：这真是我最爱的作品。

Every other project I've done, the one I was doing last was like, this is my favorite one ever.

明白了。

Okay.

那你最近做的那个项目，到底有什么特别之处，让你觉得如果以后每个项目都像这样，那你的人生就完美了？

So what was it about the last project that you just did that you would say if every project was like this one moving forward, literally, I'm living the perfect life?

我带着《诗歌与祈祷》这本书做的巡讲，我这么说可不是因为这本刚好是现在正在推广的书。

The book tour that I took with Poems and Prayers, and I'm not just saying that because that's the book that I've got out there right now.

我没有去书店签售，而是想：不如玩点更有意思的。

The I instead of going to bookstores and signing, I said, let's have some more fun here.

我觉得这些诗其实很有音乐性。

And I said, lot of these poems are musical.

它们是诗。

They're poetry.

挺有意思的。

They're fun.

我喜欢朗诵它们。

I like orating them.

我喜欢想，要是我去呢？

I like saying, what if I go?

我记得我当时想，我朋友约翰·梅伦坎普曾不打招呼就带着吉他去州立公园，站在野餐桌上就开始唱，看人们怎么聚过来。

And I remember I was like, oh, my friend John Mellencamp went to unannounced to state parks with a guitar and stood up on picnic tables and just started playing the saw how to gather.

我当时就想，这主意真不错。

Was like, oh, that's a great idea.

我琢磨了好几个星期。

And I stuck on that for a couple of weeks.

我觉得，得比那样更有条理一点。

I was like, well, let's organize myself a little bit more than that.

要是我去剧院呢？

What if I get theaters?

我当时想，好吧，我去剧院试试，看看能吸引多少人来。

I was like, yeah, I'll go to theaters, see if we see what size I can get to people in.

我还打算办几场诗歌朗诵。

I'll do I'll I'll do some poetry reads.

但我突然想到，等等。

And I was like, wait a minute.

要是我请一位音乐嘉宾来呢？

What if I invite a musical guest?

结果一周之内，我就把一切都筹备好了。

So within a week, I worked up.

就这么定了。

Boom.

我先来一段二十二分钟的开场演讲，然后请音乐嘉宾上台。

I got a twenty two minute opening sermon, and then I invite the musical guest out.

我们会聊聊生活中的一些主题，比如某个祷告的意义。

We talk about some themes about in life about a certain prayer.

他们演奏，为我伴奏。

They play they accompany.

我准备了十二首歌的播放列表，都是以诗歌形式呈现的祷告歌曲。

I do twelve twelve song playlist, and it's it's it's spoken word prayers that are songs.

我跑了八个地方，每次都请到了特别出色的音乐人。

I did eight stops with eight incredible musicians.

我在纽约演出完，飞到纳什维尔，睡一觉，第二天早上六点就开演，从十一点忙到凌晨四点半，接着准备第二天在塔尔萨的演出。

I do a show, New York, fly to Nashville, sleep, wake up that morning in Nashville, 11:00, show at 06:00 from eleven to 04:30, work on the next day's show, which was gonna be in Tulsa.

我总是只盯着第二天的事—— playlist 怎么安排，明天要写什么内容。

I was always just working on one day ahead, one day ahead, one day ahead, the playlist, and what I was gonna write.

其实说谎了，整个过程像一部纪录片，我从来就只提前一天准备，不是提前几个月，就一天。

That a lie it was it was like a documentary, so I was only a day I was only a day ahead of preparation, not months, a day.

一切都是现场进行的。

It was live.

这一切都充满生命力。

It was vital.

我觉得走上舞台，就没有那种沟通上的隔阂了——电影里可是有四重屏障的。

I think getting on stage and not having the the demarcation or the border between communication, which there's four borders in film.

对吧？

Right?

演别人的剧本，扮演别人的角色，透过别人的镜头，再经过别人的剪辑。

I'm doing someone else's script, someone else's character, going through someone else's camera eye, and edited by someone else.

所以从我真实的想法到传到你那儿，中间隔了四层过滤。

So there's four filters from my raw expression before it gets to you.

明白吗？

Alright?

就连写作，都已经是第一层过滤了。

Even writing, that's one filter.

但直接站在舞台上，这事儿我以前从没做过。

But, boy, the direct line I've never and I've never done stage before.

每晚站在台上，慢慢建立起信心，根据现场的反馈，即兴调整我的表达方式。

The direct line of being on stage and that each night and then slowly getting the confidence to go, oh, on the fly, I'm gonna update how I communicate with what I'm getting back.

但这次巡演具体是哪里不一样呢？

But what specifically was it about this tour?

我是说，你职业生涯这么出色，到底是什么让这次巡演特别突出？

Specifically about this tour that stands I mean, you've had a remarkable career.

你拍过很多出色的电影。

You've done remarkable films.

你也合作过很多了不起的人。

You've had incredible collaborations.

你以前也合作过啊。

You've done collaborations before.

这些你都做过。

You've done all of this.

那这次巡演凭什么超越了你之前所有的一切？

What was it about this tour that out strips everything else you've ever done?

是我自己写的。

I wrote it.

我说的每一句话都是真心的，现场表演和直接分享的过程让我特别开心。

I believed everything I said, and I had so much fun presenting it and sharing with directly.

没有用任何预录的音轨。

No Memorex.

没有录音。

No record.

这就是现场的原汁原味。

This is it live.

这不是为了存起来当资产以后再放的。

It's not to bank away and as an asset to put out later.

这是我这辈子体验过最棒的天然快感之一。

It's one of the best natural drugs I've ever had.

你别说，我当时真是上头了。

Tell me I was high.

说说你童年时一个具体又开心的回忆吧。

Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory.

每周末我们都去我祖父母家，有个具体的场景，我想和你一起重温一下。

Like we went to my grandparents every weekend, something specific that I can relive with you.

好的。

Okay.

前院，盖蒂街。

Front yard, Getty Street.

德克萨斯州乌瓦尔德最热闹的街道。

Busiest street in Uvalde, Texas.

五条车道，两边各两车道，中间一条转弯道。

Five lanes, two going each way and one turn in the middle.

我们家就紧挨着这条街，没围栏，但有条沥青人行道，院子里种的是圣奥古斯丁草，还有一棵山核桃树。

We lived right on it with no fence to the street, but there was a sidewalk, asphalt sidewalk, and we had Saint Augustine grass in that yard and one pecan tree.

夏天特别热的时候，我记得我可以在前院玩，虽然没围栏，但我清楚不能越过人行道，对吧？

And in the hot summer, I remember being out, I was allowed to play in the front, even though there was no, I knew not to go past the sidewalk, right?

我那时候穿着短裤。

In my dike.

我记得那时候躺在那棵树下，天气热得不行，第一次发现圣奥古斯丁草的根系特别深、特别粗，得浇很多水才行。

Well, I remember being there and under that tree and it being hot and me finding for the first time that, oh, the roots of Augustine's a longer thicker grass with a deeper root, needs more water.

不管那天有多热，圣奥古斯丁草的根部总是凉凉的。

No matter how hot the day is, the roots of the Saint Augustine are always cool.

那时候我就觉得，这根部简直是天然的降温神器。

And I remember that being a coolant for me.

除了躲在树荫下，我还能在大太阳底下，把光脚丫子埋进草根里，找那一小块凉意。

Besides being in the shade, I could find shade starting in the middle of the sun on my feet by nestling my bare feet into the roots of the St.

把脚埋进草根里，脚凉了，整个人也就跟着凉快下来。

Augustine and it would cool my feet which would then cool my body.

我当时就觉得，这招真绝了。

I remember thinking that was really cool

在你所有童年回忆里——不管是美好的、糟糕的，有位了不起的妈妈，学校生活也挺棒——为什么偏偏挑这个片段告诉我？

So of all of the amazing experiences you had as a kid, good, bad, an amazing mother, sounds like a fantastic experience in school, what was it about this memory that is the reason you chose to tell it to me over all the others?

可能是因为，就在同一个下午，我听见从盖蒂街远处传来一阵声音，大概四分之一英里外，那声音一直在响。

Probably because that same afternoon I heard this sound coming from down the street in Getty Street about quarter mile away, and it was going.

声音越来越近，也越来越响。

And it grew louder as it neared me.

我抬头一看，手里早就攥着一块石头了——车刚开到我家门前，里面坐着四个家伙，其中一个是我大哥。车窗全摇了下来，他们半个身子都探出窗外。

And I looked up and I already had a rock in my hand because right when it got in front of the house, there's a car and there were four guys in it, one of them being my oldest brother, And they had the windows down and their asses out the window.

车刚到我跟前，那个胖子就喊了一声。

And just as it got in front of me, fat man.

我赶紧把石头扔出去，他们哈哈大笑，然后车子开走了。

Throw that rock out there and they laugh, and it fade off.

沿着街道远去了。

And down the street.

虽然那时候我胖乎乎、穿着尿布，气得够呛，可这事儿多酷啊。

And as much as that drove me and my little pudgy pudgy diaper self crazy How cool is that?

我大哥，我最大的哥哥，就是他。

My big brother, my oldest brother Yeah.

他和朋友们还特意拿我寻开心。

And his friends took time to pick on me Yeah.

我当时穿着尿布，在前院玩。

While I was playing in a diaper in the front yard.

我就知道，那时候我就明白，那其实是一封情书，尽管它让我……

I knew I knew that was a love letter even then as much as it made me

很生气。

upset.

这两个故事之间，其实有件特别有意思的事。

There's something really interesting between those two stories.

我不太确定该怎么解释，但当你讲完巡演的故事，再讲这个前院的场景时，我能感觉到它们紧密相连。

I'm not sure how to reconcile it but when you told those two stories of the tour and then this the front yard there's a lot of connection.

有探索，也有自我发现——站在草地上，第一次感受到根系带来的凉意；第一次站上舞台，全然陌生的体验；还有外界的反应，就像你说的，那种掌声让人上瘾。你知道吗，那是来自外部世界的认可，是那个我仰望的哥哥，你提到过，你带着敬畏去面对他们，他们愿意花时间专门来逗你，这跟大多数人想的完全不一样，大多数人会觉得：天啊，他跟朋友在拿我开玩笑。

There's discovery and self discovery like standing in the grass and discovering for the first time these roots that can keep you cool, the discovery of view on stage never done stage before, the newness and then there's also the reaction which is you get the reaction of the audience you know which you said was intoxicating and hearing that's the outside world that sort of like know that my big brother that I look up to and this is your point about you show up with reverence, you know, that they take time out of their day like that's a very different perspective than most people have which is oh my god he's thinking about me with his friends.

那时候我还说不出来，但心里其实懂，虽然我朝他们扔石头，心里也想……

I wouldn't have been able to verbalize that then but I knew it then like as much as I threw the rock at him and wanted to

砸那辆车。

hit that car.

那更像是乐趣的一部分，而不是生气，没错，我的意思是，我

It was part of the fun rather than anger it Yeah, sounds I mean I

我没因此躲起来生闷气，故意拖着不放。

didn't go sulk about it to prolong afterwards.

如果要总结一个模式，那就是你对自己有着强烈的探索欲——你特别想知道‘你’究竟是什么样的人。

Right, I mean if I had to draw sort of a pattern here which is there is a self discovery about you which is you are very curious about the thing that is you.

对。

Yes.

很多人活在世上，即使对世界充满好奇，却很少真正好奇自己。

And I think that a lot of people go through the world even if they are curious about the world, I don't think a lot of people are curious about themselves.

他们只有在出问题时才会关注自己，比如工作不顺、感情出问题，于是不得不面对自己脾气暴躁这些事。但这不叫好奇，这叫应对或急救。

And when they are, it's when they have to work on something or deal with something because something went wrong, you got trouble at work, you have relationship issues and now I've got to deal with this thing that I've got a temper and but I wouldn't call that curiosity, I'd call that reaction or triage.

而你一直保持着对自我的好奇，比如你高中时是个很受欢迎的孩子，但你总想知道为什么自己受欢迎。

And you have an ongoing curiosity about yourself, the story you tell about you in high school like you're this really popular kid but you wanna know why you're popular.

你在澳大利亚时，也想弄明白为什么自己会那么不适应；你对这些我们聊过的主题——比如对不适感的接纳——都表现得游刃有余。我觉得这一切都源于同一个核心：你对自我有着永不满足的好奇心。

You're in Australia and you wanna know why you're struggling and your comfort with all of these themes that we've been talking about your comfort with discomfort and I think it all boils down to this common root which is you're insatiably curious about yourself.

就连讨论如何给自私这个概念换个更好的说法，也是其中一部分。

Even the discussion about trying to give selfishness a better brand.

没错。

Yep.

有一种模式，就像一本祷告书、一本诗集，本质上都是在探索自我。

There's this pattern that is this this you a book of prayer, a book of poetry, which is really an exploration of self.

所有这些行为——写日记、当你还是浪漫喜剧演员时接拍烂片，直到你不再接烂片，不是因为市场不要，而是因为你从中学不到任何东西了。

All of these things, the journaling, you can see the boredom when you're the rom com guy and you're taking you're saying yes to shit films, you know, until you stop saying yes to shit films, not because the market doesn't want it, it's because there's no, there's nothing to learn for you, Yep, for

阿门。

amen.

所以我从你身上学到的，与其说是自信、冒险或直面不适，不如说完全是另一回事。

And so I think the lesson that I'm learning from you is less about confidence, it's less about risk, it's less about discomfort, all of these things that I thought it was.

我意识到，对我们每个人来说，最重要的是培养对自我的好奇心。

What I'm recognizing is to for all of us to cultivate a curiosity about ourselves.

我们总被告诉要去旅行、看世界、读书、看电影、多提问。

We're always told travel, see the world, read books, watch movies, ask questions.

但我们中有多少人会真正观看自己的人生电影？会问自己问题？会在睡得好时观察自己，睡得不好时也观察自己？保持好奇，问自己：我为什么会这样反应？尽量客观地理解自己，而不是一味贬低，只是单纯地好奇。

But how many of us are watching our own movie or asking ourselves questions or travelling with ourselves watching ourselves when we have a lot of sleep and watching ourselves when we don't have a lot of sleep and being curious and asking why did I react that way and being genuinely objective as best as we can to understand ourselves without being self effacing Just curious

你描述的这个东西，对我来说确实如此，而且你表达的方式跟之前说的自信啊、自私啊那些都不一样。

You define something that I it's definitely true for me, and you and you and you said it in a way because it it is different than those other things of confidence or selfish.

不是那回事。

It's not that.

它说的不是那个意思。

It's not that it says much.

我经常听到这种话。

I get that all the time.

别人总说：‘你看起来好自信啊。’

Oh, you're you're you're you're you seem so confident.

我会说：好吧，从数学角度讲，确实如此，因为我准备充分，才能放松下来。

And I go, okay, mathematically speaking, yeah, because I prepare so I can relax.

我明白，明白，明白。

Okay, I get that, dah, dah, dah.

但我经常经历一种渺小感，不是一时的，而是持续的阶段，因为我感到无聊，还没遇到新的自我发现，也没找到让我恍然大悟的新哲学。

But I go, but I suffer bouts, not bouts, I suffer stages of insignificance all the time because I'm bored I haven't had a new self discovery or figured a new philosophy that'd go, oh, that's, oh, that's mine.

我现在整天都在写，写下来的都是一些笔记。

Now I'm gonna I write all day, and it'll be a note.

可能是一些零散的想法。

It'll be something.

可能是我跟别人的一次对话，或者一句说错的话，还挺搞笑的。

It'll be an exchange I had with someone, A mala prop that'll be funny.

也可能是我对自己的某个领悟，或者发现生活中有什么事正在顺利进行，得到了积极的回应。

A realization about myself or about something that's working in the world for me that is getting a like response or a healthier positive response.

我会想，哎，这个办法真管用。

I'm like, that that that that worked.

我会试着去留意这些模式。

I'll try to I will look for those patterns.

其实我也不确定自己是不是真的在刻意寻找它们。

I don't even know if I look for them.

我觉得我本质上就是在不断发现这些。

Think I'm inherently just finding them.

别人可能会说这有点像玩笑，但其实不是。

People go, this is somewhat of a joke, but it's not.

你太关注自己了，总听见别人议论别人。

You're just so self involved, you hear people say, about people.

我也被人这样说过。

I've even been told that.

当别人这么说我时，我停下来想，那除了自己，我还该去关心谁呢？

And it when I got told that, once I stopped, I went, well, who who else do you do you think I should be involved with?

我希望我们都能更关注自己。

I wish we were I think we should be more self involved.

我觉得我之所以还没成为理想中的自己，就是因为还不够关注内心。

I don't I don't my my gap between being, you know, the man I wanna be and the man I am is because I'm, I believe, not self involved enough.

对自己保持好奇，或许正是我最大的优势。

And all those self curiosity of myself may be one of my strongest suits.

从那些喜欢谈论自己、剖析自己的人，到那些完全没有自我探索意识的人，后者往往会把这种行为看成自我中心，而且是带着贬义的。我觉得你提到的重新定义词语、重新定义自私，其实不是要纠正他们，也不是要接受他们的说法，而是想把那些被污名化的词重新赋予正面意义。

Of somebody who likes to talk about themselves and dissect themselves to those who have no self curiosity comes across as self involvement which they mean pejoratively, And I think to your point about trying to redefine words and trying to redefine selfishness, I think it's more, it's less of trying to correct them or embrace their words and trying to convert these bad words that are good.

你太自我了——但自我其实是好事。

You're so self involved but self involved is good.

你太自私了——但自私其实是好事。

You're so selfish but selfish is good.

与其对抗整个系统，不如把它当作一种启示分享给别人：不，你看到的这个人，只是对自己充满好奇。我所有关于自己的领悟，都源于我对自己的探索。我真希望别人也能像我这样，对自己保持同样的好奇心。

Instead of raging against the machine I think to offer it as a lesson to others and saying no, what you're witnessing is somebody who is very curious about themselves and every lesson I have learned about myself is because I'm curious about me and I wish others were as curious about themselves as I have learned to be.

对。

Yes.

这也许有点天真，但为什么有人会对自己的内心毫无兴趣呢？

Again this may be naivete, Why is why would someone not be really curious about themselves?

或者他们其实也有兴趣，只是不知道该从哪里开始好奇？

Or are they curious they just don't know what to what to be curious about?

我觉得原因有很多。

I think there's many reasons.

我觉得第一个原因是害怕，因为你可能不喜欢自己看到的东西，要是不喜欢，人就会躲开，而不是说：挺好，让我再深入了解一点。

I think one it's scary because I may not like what I see and if you don't like what you see you could run away from it versus saying, good, let me learn more about this.

第二个原因是，做起来很难，因为那些事旁边总跟着羞耻和尴尬。

Two, I think it's hard to do because shame, embarrassment are around the corner with some of those things.

说到底，能接受不舒服的状态，才敢去探索自己，哪怕过程不自在。我觉得学会接纳不适，其实是激发好奇心的一种方式。可惜现实就是这样，有些人就是对世界、对自己提不起兴趣，他们只是浑浑噩噩地过日子，居然还能觉得幸福。

It goes back to be comfortable with being uncomfortable means I can explore myself even if it's uncomfortable and I think for people to learn to be uncomfortable is a mechanism for curiosity and for some and I wish this weren't the case, but it is, I think just some people aren't curious about the world or themselves and they go through the world, I can't believe with happiness, but they just sort of go through the world as that happens.

对某件事保持好奇是件很美好的事，为什么不从自己开始呢？毕竟这是最容易的，你哪儿都不用去。

It's a beautiful thing to be curious about something and why not start with yourself because it's the easiest thing, you don't need to go anywhere else.

在能跟别人对话之前，我们得先理解自己的内心独白。

And we have to have or understand our own monologue before we can have a dialogue.

我也这么觉得。

I think so too.

我们总是太在意别人说了什么，或者他们是怎么说的。

And we're always so preoccupied with what somebody else said or how they said it.

有时候所谓的自我探索，其实只是自我折磨，比如躺在床上反复问自己：我那天为什么要那样做？

Or if there is self curiosity, it's more like self flagellation, which is lying in bed going, why did I do that?

我干嘛要那样做？

Why did I do that?

我干嘛要那样说？

Why did I say it that way?

不是出于好奇的追问，而是一种自我贬低的责问，而不是问问自己：我为什么那样说？

Not with a curious why, but sort of a self effacing why versus I wonder why I said it that way.

我身上到底出了什么问题？

What is it about me?

为什么我对自己的那番话感到这么不安和痛苦？

And why am I carrying such discomfort and upsetness about the way I said that?

我能从中学会什么，下次好做得更好？

And what can I learn so that I improve upon it next time?

这其实是在好奇的时刻，对自己多一份宽容。

Which is to offer oneself grace in the moment of curiosity.

这并不是在评判自己。

It's not a judgment.

这是因为，别忘了，我们平时就是这样劝别人的。

It is because remember, this is what we tell people.

别去评判别人，多对他们保持好奇。

Instead of being judgmental, be curious about other people.

我们现在对自己也是这样——别苛责自己，而是给自己宽容和谅解，像你希望别人对你那样，去好奇地了解自己。

We're doing the same thing, which is instead of judging oneself, offer oneself grace and forgiveness and now be curious about yourself in the same way you wish to be curious

对，没错。

about Yeah, yeah.

你之所以形成这样的模式，不管是因为成长环境还是别的原因，它确实帮过你，也让你成了我们大家的榜样，所以自我好奇真的特别有价值。

And you have learned it for whatever reasons the way you were raised, you have learned it and it has benefited you and you have become a model for the rest of us is why self curiosity is really a good thing.

爱能直击内心深处。

Love zapped that deep.

明白了。

Alright.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

这招真漂亮。

That's a good play.

好的。

Alright.

我们来快速进行几轮问答。

We'll do couple couple quick fires.

你职业生涯中一直拥抱重塑，对于那些觉得自己被困在同一个状态好多年、担心无法突破的人，你有什么建议？

As someone who has embraced reinvent throughout your career, what advice would you give to people who feel stuck in a box that they've been in for years and worry they can't break out?

西蒙刚说过了。

Simon just said it.

对自己多一点好奇。

Be more curious about yourself.

我本来想说多冒险，但他讲得对，那只是多对自己好奇的附属品。

I would have said take more risk, but as he said, that would have been a, that would have been the backup dancers for more curiosity for yourself.

你坚持写日记三十多年了，说这是捕捉真相的方式。

You've been journaling for over thirty years and describe it as a way to catch the truth.

你在纸上写东西的时候，有什么是其他地方做不到的？

What happens for you on the page that doesn't happen anywhere else?

我花了好长时间才让手或笔跟得上脑子里的想法，尤其是在实时写作时保持思路连贯。有时候实在太多了，我就干脆录下来，再慢慢整理。

Well, it's taken a while for me to get my fingers or my pen to keep up with my mind as I'm writing it live and to keep the train of thought going, or sometimes I'll just if it's too much, I just gotta record it and then translate it.

把那些转瞬即逝的真实感受记录下来，也许只是一个瞬间，却能道出许多事情的真相。

Memorializing a live feeling that is maybe a moment in time that speaks a truth across many, many, many things.

刚开始写作、或者写得吃力的时候，我们大多数人都是这样：突然撞上一句真话，经历一次深刻的对话，听到一个绝妙的笑话，心里总会想，这太棒了。

And if I didn't write it down, as most of us do when you first start writing or you're trying to get writing when it's hard, is you you cross a great truth, you have a great exchange, you hear a great joke, you're always like, that was so good.

我肯定忘不了。

I'm never gonna forget it.

结果呢，你就真忘了。

There you will.

然后你就忘了。

And then you forget it.

所以，赶紧记下来。

So just jot it down.

所以我开头几分钟就写下来了。

That's why I wrote in the opening minutes.

我记下来就是为了能忘了它，因为如果不记，我就得拼命回想她刚才说了什么。

I write stuff down so I can forget it because I because if I don't write it down, I'm playing grab ass with what was that thing she said?

那句话听起来真棒。

Oh, that thing sounded so so good.

等等等等。

Blah blah blah.

现在我就像在跑轮子上，不停地在脑子里抓东抓西。

Now I'm now I'm now I'm just on a hamster wheel rake playing grab ass with my thoughts.

但如果我记下来了，就会说：啊，找到了。

Or if I wrote it down, I'm like, ah, there it is.

就在这儿。

There it is.

这很好。

That's good.

麦康纳，真高兴见到你。

McConaughey, what a pleasure.

这次对话太有启发性了。

This has been very inspiring.

非常感谢你抽出时间，分享这么多精彩的内容。

I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing wonderful stuff.

这是我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

期待下次再聊，时间能更长一些。谢谢你带来的洞见，让我更好地理解了这些事，也通过你的话更了解了自己。

Look forward to doing it again and for even longer and thank you for the insight and, teaching me something or a way to at least understand it better and and and through your words about myself.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

《一点乐观》由乐观公司出品。

A bit of optimism is a production of the optimism company.

特别感谢我们的团队：林赛·加尔贝纽斯、菲比·布拉德福德和德文·约翰逊。

Lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson.