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我是西蒙，打断一下我自己。
Simon here, interrupting Simon.
在开始这期节目之前，听说现在流行一种叫‘应用’的新东西，特别火。
Before we start this episode, apparently there's this new thing called apps, and they're very popular right now.
所以我做了一个。
So I made one.
妈，我开发了一个应用。
Mom, I made an app.
叫‘Leaderful’，专为那些选择过领导型生活的人设计。
It's called Leaderful, and it's for leaders who choose to live the leadership lifestyle.
里面塞满了内容，帮你成为自信又接地气的领导者，我们还办线下活动。
It's chock full of content to help anyone be the confident, connected leader they want to be, and we host live events.
所以，如果听完这期节目你有话想问唐，4月27日中午12点，东部时间，来直播间直接问他。
So if at the end of this episode, you have a question for Don, join him live on April 27 at 12PM eastern for a live q and a.
下载这个应用，或者上simonsinek.com，注册Leaderful会员时用代码‘story30’。
Download the app or visit simonsinek.com and use the code story 30 when you become a member of Leaderful.
我一直在找那些让我感激、让我喜欢的事物。
I'm constantly looking for things I appreciate, things I love.
如果你在友谊和关系里找那些你真正喜欢的东西，你越找，就会看到越多。
And if you're looking for things you love in your friendships, in your relationships, if you're looking for things you love, you see more of them.
这真是个很棒的教训。
Oh, this is a great lesson.
你的任务就是去发现你喜欢的东西。
Your job becomes find things I like.
你要主动去找那些人默默多做了点什么、付出更多、干得出色的时刻。
You make it your job to find where people are actually going the extra mile, doing a little more, you know, doing good work.
哪怕只是件小事，也说声谢谢，你会发现这样的事会越来越多。
Even if it's a small thing, sort of say thank you and you'll find you get more of it.
唐·耶格尔是研究约翰·伍登的顶尖专家。
Don Yaeger is the preeminent expert on John Wooden.
约翰·伍登是大学篮球史上最强的教练。
John Wooden is the greatest coach in college basketball history.
不管你喜不喜欢篮球，只要你对领导力感兴趣——就像我一样——你就必须研究约翰·伍登。
Whether you care about basketball or not, if you're interested in leadership like I am, you have to study John Wooden.
也就是说，你得去跟唐·耶格尔聊聊。
Which means you have to talk to Don Yaeger.
所以我特别兴奋能请唐来我的播客做客。
This is why I was so excited to have Don on the podcast.
想跟他聊聊那些‘情书’的事。
To talk to him about love letters.
他刚出了新书《掌握讲故事的艺术》，到现在已经写了44本书，其中13本登上了《纽约时报》畅销榜。
With the release of his newest book, Mastering the Art of Storytelling, Don has written 44 books, including 13 New York Times bestsellers.
他以前是《体育画报》的副主编，采访过我们这个时代最伟大的运动员：迈克尔·乔丹、塞雷娜·威廉姆斯、迈克尔·菲尔普斯，当然还有教练约翰·伍登。
A former associate editor at Sports Illustrated, he's interviewed the great athletes of our generation, Michael Jordan, Serena Williams, Michael Phelps, and of course, coach John Wooden.
正是伍登教练教会了唐一封好情书的力量。
And it was coach Wooden who taught Don the power of a good love letter.
伍登教练的妻子去世后，他给她写了一封情书。
After coach Wooden's wife passed away, he wrote her a love letter.
她是在每月二十一号走的。
She had passed away on the twenty first day of the month.
接下来的二十五年里，每个月的二十一号，他都会给她写一封情书。
And every month for twenty five years, on the twenty first day, he wrote a love letter to his wife.
当唐问他，那些信里有没有什么话是希望当年她还在世时能亲口说的，伍德恩说：‘所有的话。’
When Don asked if there was anything in those letters he wished he would have said while she was alive, Wooden replied, All of it.
伍德恩教练教会了唐一件简单却容易被忽略的事。
Coach Wooden taught Don something simple but easy to forget.
我们总以为时间还多的是。
We assume there will always be time.
告诉一个人你有多在乎他，最好的时机就是现在。
But the best time to tell someone how much they mean to us is now.
这里是《一点乐观》。
This is A Bit of Optimism.
唐，能跟你坐下来聊聊真是太棒了。
Don, it's such a treat to sit down with you.
你讲故事的能力，说实话，太吸引人了。
Your ability to tell a story, quite frankly, is captivating.
我知道你写过上百万本书，拿过无数本《纽约时报》畅销榜第一，但能坐下来听你说话，完全是另一回事。
And I know you've written a million books and had bazillions of of New York Times bestsellers, but to to sit down with you is something completely different.
我光坐着听你讲，就能听一整天。
I could just sit back and listen to you the whole time.
要不这样，我就安安静静听着，你随便讲，我高兴得不得了。
In fact, why don't I sit back and let you just tell stories and I'll be very very happy.
你一开始是做记者的。
You started as a journalist.
是的。
Yes.
你小时候干过啥？
What did you do as a little kid?
就是那种，长大后想当什么之类的？
Like, what did you wanna be when you grew up kinda thing?
你是怎么走上新闻这条路的？
How did you come to journalism?
说来有点巧。
So it's funny.
你甚至可以说，这事儿早有定数。
You could argue that I was meant for it.
我爸爸是个牧师。
My father was a preacher.
我出生并成长在夏威夷。
We lived in, Hawaii, which I was born and raised.
后来我们搬到了日本。
We ended up in Japan.
不是，我们当时跟军队没关系。
While we're in the military, no.
他是个卫理公会的牧师，你知道的。
He was a, you know, he was a Methodist preacher.
但我们当时在日本，我的工作是送报纸，《星条报》。
But we were in Japan, and my job was to deliver the newspaper, the Stars and Stripes.
每天早上五点我就得起床，去取报，然后挨家挨户送过去。
So I would get up every morning, 5AM, go to the place, pick up the papers, deliver them to every place.
送完报回家，我还在门上挂个牌子写‘录音中’，然后把报纸上的内容念进录音机，顺便聊聊我当时对这些新闻的看法。
Then I would come home, and I would put recording session in progress on the outside of my door, and I would I would read parts of the newspaper into a recorder, and then I would opine about what was happening at that time.
那时候我才十一岁。
And and I'm 11.
对吧。
Right.
你说是不是？
Right?
所以我特别喜欢新闻。
And so I I loved the news.
特别关心世界上发生的事。
I loved what was happening in the world.
我特别喜欢探索未知，而新闻工作正好满足了我所有的这种好奇。
I loved curiosity, and journalism really just kinda satiated all those things for me.
所以你高中时就参加了校报？
So you you were in the school newspaper in high school.
对啊。
Yes.
说实话，我认识的人里，真没几个像你这样，打小就明确知道自己要走哪条路。
I mean, I mean, one of the very few people on the planet that literally I knew was on a path.
而且真的把这条路给走出来了。
From a young age and actually brought that path to life.
没错。
That's correct.
你还学了新闻专业。
And you studied journalism.
然后你去哪儿了？
And then where did you go?
你去了哈德，它在
You went to hard It's at
巴特尔克里克大学。
Ball State University.
那是在印第安纳州，对吧？
That's in Indiana, isn't it?
在印第安纳州。
In Indiana.
我去了圣安东尼奥的《圣安东尼奥光报》。
I went to the San Antonio newspaper, San Antonio Light.
那是圣安东尼奥最大的报纸。
It was the large paper in San Antonio.
几年后，我去了《达拉斯晨报》。
From there, after a couple of years, I went to Dallas Morning News.
后来我想做政治报道，就搬去佛罗里达，当上了一家大报的政治编辑。
And then I wanted to do politics, so I moved to Florida to be the political editor of a large newspaper.
干了几年后，我有机会去了《体育画报》，这可真是个大转变。
After a few years of that, I got an opportunity to go to Sports Illustrated, which was, quite the departure.
《体育画报》平时就那么三十来个记者，我居然能跟这些我心目中顶尖的高手一起工作，每天都能学到他们讲故事的绝活儿。
They only have, you know, about 30 writers for Sports Illustrated at at any given time, and I got an opportunity to be wrapped around these people that I thought were so fantastic at every given moment and learn every day about, the great skill that it took to tell stories as they did.
所以，《体育画报》让我有机会认识了约翰·伍登。
So what Sports Illustrated did is it opened up an opportunity for you to meet John Wooden.
我觉得这么说没错吧——你应该是世界上研究约翰·伍登最深的人了。
And you, I think it's fair to say, are the preeminent expert, is that the word to use, on John Wooden.
你跟他相处的时间，可能比他家人和队友加起来还多。
You spent more time than anybody else other than probably his family and his and maybe his teammates.
约翰·伍登是个了不起的篮球教练，没错。
John Wooden is a great basketball coach Mhmm.
他被公认为历史上最伟大的教练之一。
Who's considered one of the greatest coaches of all time.
他的理念跟大多数人想的完全不一样。
His philosophies are sort of countered to what a lot of people think.
我之所以想跟你坐下来聊聊，就是想让你分享一下，跟伍德恩相处那么久，你从他身上学到的关于领导力和人性的那些东西。
One of the reasons I wanted to sit down with you, I wanted you to sort of share some of the things you learned from getting to spend so much time with Wooden about leadership and human behavior.
顺便说一句，他要是知道西蒙·斯涅克，肯定特别认同他，因为你们俩的想法简直一模一样。
He would have been, by the way, he would have been a great Simon Sinek fan because you and he thinks so much alike.
他坚信，表现的好坏完全取决于人际关系。
He believed that performance was fully driven by relationship.
事实上，他有时候练球根本不用篮球。
In fact, there were times he would run practices without basketballs.
对吧？
Right?
你想想看，
I mean, think about it.
你是一支篮球队，练投篮，可手里连个球都没有。
You're a basketball team practicing shooting, but there's no ball in your hand.
你得在脑子里想象球出手、穿过篮网的整个过程。
You had to visualize seeing it through going it through the net.
是的
Mhmm.
因为说实话，你真投篮的时候，有时候就是进不了网。
Because the truth is if you actually shoot it, there are times it won't go through the net.
对吧？
Right?
所以他真正懂了大脑的力量，懂了思维怎么影响行为。
So he actually understood the power of of of the mind and how the mind could influence behavior.
对那些不知道约翰·伍登是谁的人，你能简单说说他为啥这么出名吗？
And for people who don't know who John Wooden was, can you just sort of very quickly say why he's renowned and famous as a as a as
当教练啊。
a coach?
他在加州大学洛杉矶分校当主教练时，拿过10个全国冠军。
He won 10 national championships while being the head coach at UCLA.
这多不多？
Is that a lot?
这比历史上任何人都多出一倍。
That is, twice as many as anybody else in history.
直到今天，这个纪录依然成立。
And that's that's that's statistics stands today.
对吧。
Right.
在男子顶级篮球领域。
In the men's top game.
赢球最多的球队。
The highest winning teams.
迈克·克日泽夫斯基拿了五个冠军。
Mike Krzyzewski has five.
对吧？
Right?
阿道夫·鲁普在肯塔基大学也拿了五个。
Adolf Rupp at at Kentucky has five.
但在这之后，就数这两位了，紧跟着约翰·伍登的十个冠军。
But those two are the next in line after John Wooden's 10.
太厉害了。
Wow.
对吧？
Right?
而且他是在短短十二年里做到的。
And so and he did that in a twelve year window.
没错。
Right.
他曾经连续七年拿下冠军。
He won seven championships in a row at one stage.
真牛啊。
Wow.
因为你每年面对的球员都不一样，学生一毕业就走了。
When you're playing with different players all the time because kids graduate
这些人都没法轻描淡写地说，你就是运气好，碰上了最好的球员。
live this People can't brush it off and say, you were lucky you had the best players.
整整十年啊，对吧？
For ten straight years, right,
在大学里连续12年，这根本不可能。
12 impossible in college.
对啊。
Right.
球员一批批地走，轮换不停。
They're they're rotating off.
人一直在换。
They're moving.
那时候大学生球员最多只能打三年。
And back then, college players could only play for three years.
所以他得不断培养新人。
So he had to constantly be developing.
让他特别的地方在于，他根本没有固定赢球的方式。
And and the thing that made him so special was that he didn't have a way of winning.
他总是根据招进来的球员来调整打法。
He adapted to the players that he brought onto his team.
如果他带着一个六尺五寸的中锋拿了全国冠军，那当然很棒。
So if he wins the national championship with a six five center, that's awesome.
但第二年，他手上有个七尺一寸的卡里姆·阿卜杜勒-贾巴尔。
But the next year, has Kareem Abdul Jabbar, who's seven one.
所以对他来说，这完全是另一套打法了。
And so, you know, now it's a whole different game for him.
他总是根据手头有什么人才、什么天赋来调整自己。
He changed based upon the assets, the talent that he was graced with.
我觉得韦斯特法尔最了不起的地方在于，他是大学篮球历史上赢球最多的教练，却从不痴迷于赢球。
The thing that I have found amazing about Wooden is the winning most coach in college basketball history was not obsessed with winning.
没错。
No.
我觉得很多领导者都痴迷于业绩、结果和达成数字，但没想到，历史上赢最多的教练，居然根本不痴迷于赢球。
And I think for a lot of leaders who are obsessed with performance and obsessed with outcome and obsessed with hitting numbers to learn that somebody who had greater success than all the others was not obsessed with winning.
你给我解释一下这怎么说得通。
Reconcile that for me.
是的。
Yeah.
他当高中篮球队教练的时候，搞出了一个成功的金字塔模型。
When he was a high school basketball coach, high school coach, he built a pyramid of success.
对吧？
Right?
他列出了成功所需的各个要素：勤奋、团队至上、还有其他一堆东西。
Of here are the blocks of what it meant to be successful and its industriousness and its willingness to be team first.
所有这些拼在一起，最顶端的那个块，叫‘伟大’。
It was all of these elements, and you get to the very top, and the top block was greatness.
他相信，人是通过一步步积累，才能走向伟大的。
And he believed that you build yourself toward greatness.
伟大不是你能直接拿来的。
You don't take greatness on.
在这些对话里，他从来没提过‘什么是冠军’。
And he never in any of these conversations talked about, what it meant to be a champion.
他谈的是，在我们的世界里，什么是真正了不起。
What he talked about was what it meant to be great in our universe.
只要我们合作得好，好事自然会发生。
If we're good together, good things will happen.
我明白了。
So I understand.
他看重的不是当冠军，而是当个了不起的队友。
He it wasn't about being a champion, but being a great teammate.
对。
Correct.
而是一个由优秀队友组成的团队。
And being a team of great teammates.
很多球队都有厉害的明星和不错的队友，但很多时候，这些队友只是运气好碰上了对的人，对吧？
It's one thing to have so many teams have good superstars and good teammates, and often the teammates are the people that are just lucky to be Right?
而你的最佳球员，同时还是个甘愿服务团队的领导者。
This was your best player also was committed to being a a servant leader.
他是怎么处理自我膨胀的？
How did he manage ego?
我们来想想那种在运动上天赋异禀、还特别刻苦的人。
So let's take someone who truly is gifted in the sport and maybe even has a remarkable work ethic.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们走路说话都一副‘我就是冠军’的样子。
And so they carry themselves like, I'm the champ.
没我你根本赢不了。
You couldn't win without me.
他是怎么处理自我膨胀的？
How did he manage ego?
他是怎么教一个真正的超级巨星去团队合作的？
How did he teach, you know, teamwork to somebody who truly is a superstar?
因为他懂。
Because he understood.
他以前总说：我相信要给每个人拍拍背。
He now he used to say, I believe in patting everyone on the back.
有些人拍得轻点，有些人重点，但不管怎样，我都会给每个人拍拍背。
Some of them a little lower than others, but, you know, some but I but I pat everybody on the back.
他的领导理念就是，得有一套所有人都得遵守的标准，不管你是最好的还是最差的。
But his whole model of leadership was this concept that you need to have a series of standards that you will hold everyone to, your best player, your worst player.
所有人都得遵守这些标准。
Everyone abides by these standards.
有时候，最好的球员会故意试探，看你是不是真拿这标准当回事。
And sometimes your best players will push that envelope and try to see, do you really mean that for me?
我是最好的球员。
I'm the best player.
他带过比尔·沃尔顿。
He had Bill Walton.
对吧？
Right?
史上最强中锋之一。
One of the greatest centers of all time.
比尔·沃尔顿那时候喜欢留比别人长一点的头发。
Bill Walton liked to have hair that was a little longer than everybody else.
那会儿是七十年代，他在队里。
It was the seventies when he was there.
所以到了他大四那年，他已经拿过两次年度最佳球员了。
And so one day, for Bill's senior year, he was the two time national player of the year.
结果拍团队照那天，他顶着一头长发就来了。
Senior year, he shows up for the team photo with long hair.
伍登教练有个规矩。
Coach Wooden had a rule.
我们这儿不许留长发，因为他觉得打完比赛得洗头。
We don't have long hair here because he believed that you would shower after a game.
大多数人头发都吹不干。
Most people don't dry their hair well.
你一出去，外面天寒地冻的，到处都是这样的地方打球。
You go out into the cold winter of some of the places they played.
一着凉就感冒。
You catch a cold.
一感冒，你就上不了场。
If you catch a cold, you're not available.
你上不了场，咱们就赢不了。
If you're not available, we don't win.
你不在，队友们都会失望。
You're disappointing the rest of your team by not being available.
所以他定下这条头发规矩，但背后是有道理的。
So he had a rule about hair, but he had a reason for it.
没错。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
后来比尔·沃尔顿心想：嘿，我有个主意。
And Bill Walton decided, you know what?
我是世界上最好的球员，也是美国最好的球员。
I'm best player in the world, best player in America.
我就要留着长发去拍毕业照。
I'm just gonna show up with long hair for senior photo day.
约翰·伍登就问他：比尔，你这头发是怎么回事？
And John Wooden said, Bill, what's the story with your hair?
他回答：教练，您一直鼓励我独立思考，那我就独立地觉得，长发挺好。
He says, well, coach, you always encourage me to think independently, and independently, I think long hair is good.
然后他说：比尔，我跟你说啊。
And he says, you know what, Bill?
很高兴你这么想，我们真会想你的。
I'm so glad you think that way, and we'll miss you.
后来比尔·沃尔顿就出去了，拦住一个骑自行车的小孩，借了车，骑到理发店，三十分钟后回来，头发剪得干干净净——他明白了，伍登教练有他的规矩，而‘我们会想你的’就是他的回答。
And Bill Walton went out, found a kid who was riding by on a bicycle, asked the kid if he could borrow the bike, rode the bike down to a haircut place, came back thirty minutes later with his haircut because he realized coach Wooden had a standard, and we'll miss you was his answer.
突然间，比尔·沃尔顿不再想试探了：当队里最好的球员，是不是就能多得点特殊待遇？
And suddenly, Bill Walton didn't wanna test to find out, is being the best player on the team gonna give me a little more grace than anybody else?
所以你说的‘规矩’，不是指表现上的标准。
So when you say standards, you don't mean performance standards.
不是的。
Oh, no.
这是做人的标准。
These are standards of being.
这才是成为我们团队一员意味着什么。
This is what it means to be part of our team.
这才是你们该怎样互相加油打气。
This is how you're gonna cheer for each other.
他要求，如果你投进了一个球，而球是别人传给你的，那你快攻时必须回头看着他，指着他道谢。
He he required that if you hit a basket, but somebody had passed you the ball, that as you ran down the court, you need to look at them and point and say, thank you.
谢谢你传给我球。
Thanks for passing me the ball.
对吧？
Right?
因为认可别人能带来真正的快乐。
Because there was joy in recognition.
对吧？
Right?
通常得分的人总能得到所有关注。
And and often the person scoring gets all the recognition.
可那个传球的人却没人注意到。
The person who passes it doesn't.
他要求，快攻时你得主动去找人，表达感谢。
He required that on the way down the court, you look for any point.
这其实也是在磨你的自负。
It's an ego check too.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
你可不是单打独斗投进那个球的。
Like, you didn't get that basket by yourself.
一个人可做不到。
Yourself.
咱们是一起完成的。
We we do this together.
没错。
Yeah.
他有个球员曾经问他：‘教练，要是我冲下去想感谢人，可人家根本没看我怎么办？’
One of his players actually said to him, but, coach, what if I go to run down the court and the guy's not looking at me when I wanna point at him?
教练说，如果对方知道你要传球，他就会盯着你。
Coach said, if the guy knows you're gonna point, he'll look at you.
对吧？
Right?
他做的这些事，其实不是为了立什么篮球规矩，而是想建立做人的规矩。
And so these are the kinds of things he was doing to try to establish, not basketball standards, human standards.
只要大家能更好地相处，团队就能赢，他们确实赢了很多场。
And if they were better together as a group of humans, they could win, and they won a lot.
那你能不能说说，当年那些队员里，有哪些后来进了NBA？
And now name some of the players who came out of those teams that went on to the NBA.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
有一阵子，他带过的全美最佳球员加起来有26个呢。
Well, one stage, had 26 all Americans played for him in over the course of several years.
沃尔顿、贾巴尔。
Walton, Kareem
卡里姆·阿卜杜尔-贾巴尔、西德尼·威克斯、亨利·比比、马库斯·约翰逊。
Kareem Abdul Abdul Jabbar, Sydney Wicks, Henry Bibby, Marcus Johnson.
我的意思是，那段时间出来的球员，好多都是大学和NBA里的大牌人物，当时他们真是顶尖水平。
I mean, you know, some of the biggest names in in college and then ultimately the NBA all came from that window of time when they were best in class.
说实话，我不是特别迷篮球。
And I I mean, I'm not a huge basketball fan.
但我确实知道卡里姆·阿卜杜尔-贾巴尔。
I do know Karim Abdul Jabbar.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道他为人特别谦逊，是个特别好的队友。
And one of the things I know about him is he was known for his humility and being a great teammate.
对。
Yes.
他本身天赋异禀，球技超群，但直到今天，他身上那种谦逊的劲儿一点都没变。
And even though he was a remarkable talent and a remarkable player unto himself, there was a and to this day, a humility that he embodies.
而这些很大一部分都源于——是的。
And so much of that came from Yeah.
这
The
你知道吗，这正是我觉得重要的地方，不管你是不是篮球迷，我都特别喜欢讲伍登的故事，因为它们真的适用于任何人。
You know, this is why I think it's important whether somebody likes you know, I'm not a basketball fan, but I do love the stories about wooden because they're so universally applicable.
没错。
Correct.
而且，你说现在这年头，我聊的那些事儿还挺有意思的。
And, you know, even the stuff I talk about, it's so funny in this modern day and age.
我会聊海豹突击队，聊那些顶尖团队，或者伍登。
You know, I'll talk about Navy Seals and I'll talk about these high performing teams or wooden.
在所有这些案例里，我们说的都是顶尖团队，对吧。
And in all those cases, we're talking about high performing teams Mhmm.
可人们总喜欢把这些理念和教训用到个人身上。
And people take those ideas and those lessons and they try to apply them to individuals.
我每次想到这个都觉得特别有意思。
And I always get a kick out of that.
没错。
Right.
你懂的吧？
You know?
我们总是忘了，所有这些能奏效，全靠我们这一群人。
We forget that all of the stuff only works because there's a group of us.
公司说白了就是一群人。
A company is literally a group of people.
公司本来就是这个意思。
That's what a company means.
对。
Right.
如果我们能把这群人凝聚起来，让他们相信——你帮了别人，别人一定会看见你。
And if we can pull that group of people together, if they can believe that when they've given you an assist, you'll notice them.
对吧？
Right?
你能得到多少助攻，真是让人惊讶。
It's amazing how many assists you'll get.
伍登是个什么样的人？
What kind of person was Wooden?
有时候，人们熟知的那个人，和他真实的模样是一致的，但愿如此。
Sometimes what they're known for and who they are sometimes align, you hope they align.
大家总说，别见偶像。
Know, they always say don't meet your heroes.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的吧？
You know?
我职业生涯里，真遇到过几次，根本不想见自己的偶像。
And I will tell you over the course of my career, I've had some of those experiences where you don't wanna meet your heroes.
约翰·伍登可不一样。
John Wooden does not apply.
他不仅是历史上最伟大的教练，更是一个品德高尚的人。
He was the greatest coach of all time and a better man.
在我们聊天的过程中，他教会了我很多。过去十二年，也就是他生命的最后十二年，我很荣幸能成为他的门生。
He taught me in our conversations, and I had the honor over twelve years, the last twelve years of his life, to have him as a mentor.
这十二年里，每隔一个月，我就会飞去加州，花一整天陪在他身边。
And we ended up in a relationship that allowed me every other month for twelve years to fly to California to spend a day with John Wooden.
每次见面，都得由我来主导谈话。
And the responsibility was mine to lead the conversation.
我得提前准备好一堆想请教的问题。
I had to come with a series of things I wanted to learn.
等我问完了，谈话就结束。
When I was out of questions, the session ended.
他从不搞虚的。
It was no BS.
哦，天哪。
Oh, no.
每次见面，作为他的门生，我都得跟他说：教练，两个月前您教我的那些东西，我这儿给您汇报一下。
And every day had to open this in a mentorship relationship with him, I had to say, coach, here's what you taught me two months ago when we were here together.
我后来是怎么用的，又因此变得多好。
Here's how I've used it in the interim, and here's how I'm better as a result.
他得知道，我不是光来蹭时间的。
He needed to hear that it wasn't just me soaking up time with him.
他得明白，他真的在改变我。
He needed to know that he was changing me.
不然的话，他这时间不就白花了嘛。
Because otherwise, it's his time wasted.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
没错。
Exactly.
我的责任就是做好准备，让他知道我是怎么用他教的东西让自己变得更好的。
It was my job to come prepared to let him know how I used what he taught me to be better.
这样才对。
That's good.
当个更好的爸爸，当个更好的丈夫，当个更好的老板，当个更好的演讲者——反正就是我平时干的那些事儿。
Better as a father, better as a husband, better as an employer, better as a, you know, a speaker or whatever it is that I was out doing.
对啊。
Right.
他希望我每次回去，都能带点实际的改变给他看，证明我真有进步。
He wanted me to to come back to him with with something I took and and show how I became better as a result.
他怎么帮你当个更好的丈夫？
How did he have you be better husband?
伍登教练，他本人就是个特别棒的丈夫。
Coach Wooden, he's a great husband.
他这辈子只亲过一个女人，然后就娶了她。
He married the only woman he ever kissed.
可惜的是，她比他早走了二十五年。
And sadly, she had passed away twenty five years before he did, ultimately.
在这二十五年里，她总是在每个月的二十一号离开人世。
And in that twenty five year window, she had passed away on the twenty first day of the month.
所以整整二十五年，每个月的二十一号，如果你约了约翰·伍登见面，不管多重要的事，他都会先写一封情书给妻子，才肯见你。
And every month for twenty five years, on the twenty first day, if you were there to meet John Wooden, if you had an appointment with coach Wooden, he didn't meet with you in person until he wrote a love letter to his wife.
他写的那些情书，美得让人心碎。
And he wrote these beautiful love letters.
他的字迹特别漂亮。
His penmanship was fantastic.
每封信差不多都写满一页，有时候能写到一页半。
And they would often be a page, maybe a page and a half long.
写完之后，他会把信封好，舔一下封口，然后走进卧室的另一边——那里还留着她睡过的床，整整齐齐地铺着。
And then he would seal the envelope, lick it, seal the envelope, and he would walk into her side of the bedroom where her bed was still made up, where she would have slept.
他把上个月的信放进盒子里，把这个月的信轻轻放在枕头上。
And he would take last month's letter and put it in a box, and he would take this month's letter and lay it on the pillow.
有一年，具体是哪一年我都能记起来。
And, you know, one one year and I I could probably tell you exactly when it was.
就是那年的十一月。
It was November of that year.
那个月的二十一号，我刚好在那儿。
I happened to be there on the twenty first day.
所以我只能坐在餐厅的餐桌旁，看着教练坐在那儿，给他妻子写信。
And so I had to sit at the dining room table as coach sat there at the table and wrote this letter to his wife.
他回到卧室，把信放在她床边后，转头看着我，我就说：教练，您每个月都写这信啊？
And when he came back after putting it at her bed, he looked at me and I said, coach, just you you write these letters every month.
您都坚持好多年了。
You've been doing it for years.
都堆满好几箱子了。
There are boxes of them.
她还在世的时候，你有没有什么话想对她说却没说出口的？
Is there anything there you wish you had said to her while she was alive?
他说：所有的话。
And he said, all of it.
我说：什么？
I said, excuse me?
他答：哦，对啊。
He goes, oh, yeah.
他说，这其实是大多数人、朋友和亲人的通病——我们太投入于跟别人说他们有多棒，却忘了告诉身边最重要的人我们有多爱他们。
He said, it's one of the great weaknesses for most of us as people, our friends and our loved ones, the people that we are so engaged with.
我们总是忙着夸别人，却忘了对最爱的人说‘我爱你’。
We're so busy telling everybody else how great they are, we forget to tell them how much we love them.
他说，真希望当初在她还在的时候，把这些话都告诉她。
And he said, I wished I had said these things when she was alive.
他对球员说的话，比对妻子还多。
He said more to his players than to his wife.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
他说，这些信就是我弥补这个遗憾的机会。
And he says, so these letters are my opportunity to get that get that chance.
我被这个想法深深打动了，那年我就回家了。
I was so taken by it that that year I went home.
圣诞节时，我送给我妻子一个盒子，里面装了52封信。
And for Christmas, I gave my wife a box with 52 letters in it.
每一封信里，我都写了一件我特别爱她的事。
52 letters where I expressed to her something I loved about her in each and every one of them.
我列了个清单，清楚知道每封信该写什么。
I made a list, and I and I knew what I wanted to write in each letter.
那年圣诞节，说实话，我送她什么根本不重要。
And that Christmas, I mean, like, I it didn't matter what I gave her.
那份礼物就是那些信。
That was the gift.
对吧？
Right?
她特别感动，所以第二年圣诞节，她也给我准备了同样的惊喜。
And it meant so much to her that the next Christmas, did it again.
我也继续每年都这么做。
And I did it again.
就在上个星期五，她拆开了第848封信。
And just last Friday, she opened letter number 848.
天啊。
Wow.
算算年头，也就等于我坚持了这么多年。
So however many years that is is how many years it's been since I started doing it.
每一封都不一样。
And they're all different.
所以她会把
So she takes
盒子拿过来，每周拆一封。
the box and opens one a week.
对。
Right.
她每周拆一封，是啊。
She opens one a week Yeah.
然后她把所有信都留着。
And then she keeps all the letters.
真让人感动。
Wow.
她总爱指着这些信给我女儿说：对了，我希望有一天你能遇到一个人，爱你到愿意给你写信。
She loves to point them out to my daughter and say, by the way, I hope one day you you marry somebody that will love you enough to write you a letter.
真让人感动。
Wow.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
而且，没错，伍登教练让我成了个更好的丈夫。
And, yeah, coach Wooden made me a better made me a better husband.
说实话，有好几次在我们的关系里，我敢打赌那些信救了我——你知道的，我可能做了什么让她特别生气的事，不管是什么，最后她都会拿出那封信，说：‘嗯，你看看。’
I mean, there have been times when in our relationship where I'm pretty sure the letter saved me, you know, because my I may have done something that really made her mad and whatever it might be, And then it ultimately should go, yeah.
可这家伙给我写了五百封信啊。
But this guy's written me 500 letters.
对吧？
Right?
你懂的吧？
You know?
所以，我其实得到了一些额外的宽容，一些额外的体谅，这肯定对我们的婚姻有帮助。
And so, I mean, there's a little grace that I get, a little extra grace that that that probably plays into our marriage.
这毫无疑问。
It's been without question.
是约翰·伍登改变了我的人生。
It's John Wooden to change my life.
很多播客都在推广他们根本不关心的产品。
A lot of podcasts do ads for products they don't care about.
我这回推广的，是我自己真正在意的东西。
I'm doing an ad for a product I do care about, my own.
你听我做节目，习惯了我老是提问题。
When you listen to a bit of optimism, you're used to hearing me ask all the questions.
但要是你有话想问我的嘉宾呢？
But what if you have questions for my guest?
唐·耶格尔会亲自在 Leaderful 应用里直播回答大家的问题。
Don Yaeger is going to be live to answer your questions exclusively on Leaderful.
Leaderful 是我新推出的 app，专门帮那些想成为有自信、有连接力的现代领导者的人找到方向。
Leaderful is my new app, designed to help guide anyone who wants to be the confident, connected leader they need to be in this day and age.
里面有很多鼓舞人心的内容，你还能直接接触到 podcast 里那些嘉宾。
There's tons of inspiring content and you get direct access to some of the people you hear on this podcast.
4月27日中午12点，东部时间，你可以加入唐的直播，聊聊在AI时代怎么建立连接、施加影响、激发他人。
You can join Don on April 27 at 12PM Eastern for a live Q and A on how to connect, influence and inspire in the age of AI.
去下载应用，或者上 simonsenick.com 注册参加唐的活动。
Download the app or sign up at simonsenick.com to register for Don's event.
因为我爱你，我的播客听众，成为 Leaderful 会员时用代码 STORY30，能享优惠。
And because I love you, my podcast listeners, you can use the code STORY30 when you become a member of Leaderful.
我把我的婚姻给改变了。
I've changed my marriage.
你每周写一封信，对妻子有了什么新的认识？
What have you learned about your wife in writing a letter a week?
因为你得坐下来好好想，我猜头十来封信肯定挺容易的。
Because you're forced to sit down and think because I'd imagine the first 10 or 15 Were easy.
挺容易的。
Were easy.
是啊。
Yeah.
微笑。
Smile.
我喜欢你那样
Love the way
笑的样子。
you Smile.
你的幽默感。
Your sense of humor.
没错。
Right.
是啊。
Yeah.
就是啊。
Like, yeah.
我懂了。
I got it.
但后来写到五六十封、七十几封的时候，你就开始想：我喜欢你今天早上给我煎的鸡蛋。
But then when you start getting into, like, fifty, sixty, 70, you're like, love how you cooked my eggs this morning.
嗯，我还没去过那儿。
Well, I haven't gone there.
那天做炒蛋简直完美。
It was a perfect scramble day.
没人能像你一样把炒蛋做得这么绝。
No one can make scrambled eggs quite like you.
我的意思是，你写了八百多封信之后，对她一定有了不少了解吧？
I mean, it's like, I wanna know what you've learned about her after, you know, over 800 letters.
我告诉你这对我意味着什么，是的。
I will tell you what it's done for me Yeah.
就是说，我认识好多朋友，吃饭的时候他们总跟我唠叨。
Is, you know, I mean, I just I know so many friends who I'll sit with at lunch.
他们跟我抱怨老婆的各种毛病。
They'll tell me all the horrible things her wife does.
比如，厕纸卷没从上面拉。
Like, she doesn't put the toilet paper overwrite.
对吧？
Right?
你知道的吧？
Or you know?
她叠毛巾的方式跟我喜欢的不一样。
She doesn't fold the towels like I like them.
这些事儿我平时根本不会在意。
And, and I don't think about those things.
但我认识一些男人，他们会在意。
But I know men who do.
我认识一些男人，他们整天琢磨，天啊，他们的关系为啥这么糟。
I know men who who think about, you know, gosh, the relationship they have.
就是因为她喜欢把厕纸从上面绕，而不是下面。
It's so troubled because she's an over the toilet paper instead of under the toilet paper kinda woman.
我知道这听起来挺傻的，但真有人专门找这种小事来贬低别人。
And I I I know it sounds silly, but there are people out there who are looking for reasons to think less of someone else.
我总在留意各种事情。
I'm always looking for something.
我经常写这些信。
I write them all the time.
我电脑里存着所有我写过的信的数据库，接下来七八十封我都已经想好内容了。
I have a database on my computer of all the letters I've written, and I've got the next 75 or 80 already crafted, right, of what they're gonna be.
明年圣诞节的信早就准备好了，因为我一直在找那些让我感动、让我喜欢的小事。
Next Christmas is already taken care of because I'm constantly looking for things I appreciate, things I love.
如果你在朋友、在关系里刻意去找那些你喜欢的地方，你就会看到更多这样的东西。
And if you're looking for things you love in your friends, in your friendships, in your relationships, if you're looking for things you love, you see more of them.
这真是个很棒的领悟。
Oh, this is a great lesson.
你要是知道得写封信，还得写得走心，那就像你说的，你的任务就变成去发现你喜欢的事儿，这成了你的日常功课。
You know, if you know you have the assignment to write the letter and you've got to write something good, then as you said, your job becomes find things I like, that becomes your job.
没错。
Right.
这说的就是鲍勃·查普曼，他在我心里特别重要，他说过，别老盯着员工哪里做错了，要多留意他们哪里做对了。
And this is, you know, Bob Chapman, you know, dear to my heart, he would say of his employees, don't catch people doing things wrong, people doing things right.
对。
Right.
道理是一样的。
And it's the same thing.
如果你把发现别人多付出一点、多做一点、工作表现好——哪怕只是小事——当成自己的任务，及时说声谢谢，你会发现这种好行为会越来越多。
If you make it your job to find where people are actually going the extra mile, doing a little more, doing good work, even if it's a small thing sort of say thank you and you'll find you get more of it.
而且，发现别人做对事本身也挺开心的，因为老挑毛病只会越陷越深。
Plus, it's fun to catch people doing things right because the other becomes insidious.
对吧？
Right?
你要是总盯着错处看，那肯定到处都是错。
Which is if you start looking for things wrong You'll find them.
你一心想找错处，
You start looking for things wrong.
今天早上我就碰上这么一档子事，工作中有几件事让我有点反应过度，还发了条消息说：‘嘿，这事发生了。’
It just happened to me this morning, which is there's a couple things that happened at work that I've like reacted to and sent a note going, hey, this happened.
咱们别让这种事再发生了，你知道的。
Let's not let it happen again, you know.
结果呢，它又发生了。
And then it happened again.
我又说：‘这事儿又来了。’
I was like, this happened.
咱们别让这种事再发生了。
Let's not let it happen again.
所以今天开会的时候，我就说了：‘我不喜欢这样。’
And so in a meeting today, I said, hey, I don't like this.
我不喜欢总在事后反应。
I don't like reacting.
我不想总当个事后诸葛亮。
I don't want to react.
我得承认，这事儿真让人糟心
I've got to believe that it sucks
站在另一边的感受吧。
To be on the other end.
站在——
To be on
我发火的那边是什么感觉。
the other end of me reacting.
你能跟我说说，到底哪儿不对劲吗？
Can you tell me what's going on?
为什么这事就是搞不定？
That it's not working?
我不想这样，你也不想被我这样对待。
And because I don't wanna be this and you don't wanna be in the receiving of it.
他们给我讲了个特别合理的理由，解释为什么会这样。
And they gave me a very logical explanation as to why it happens.
结果就是个技术故障而已。
Turns out it just a technological glitch.
你知道的。
You know?
根本不是人的问题。
Not a human not human failing at all.
那我们现在该怎么办？
But where do we go
到底是谁搞砸了这事？
in those Who screwed this up?
对啊。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
如果我们确实没错的话。
And if we were in fact Right.
给个机会，留个门，让这场对话能自然发生。
Give the grace and the opportunity and the open door for that conversation to occur.
所以对我来说，教训就是：当然，我会注意到出错的地方，这很正常。
And so and so the the lesson for me was, course, I'm gonna notice things that go wrong, of course.
但要是我主动问一问，而不是一上来就挑毛病，因为我真不想当那个总盯着问题不放的人。
But by asking the question as opposed to coming in and because because I don't wanna be the person who's always looking for things going wrong.
对啊。
Right.
现在我听到一个合理的解释，心里一下子就踏实了，挺好。
That I just got an explanation that made sense and now I'm like, great.
既然明白了是技术故障，我反而能看到那些做对的地方——原来这事儿其实干得不错，而不是光盯着没搞好的那一部分。
And now that I understand the technological glitch, I can see what went right and be like, that was good as opposed to focusing on a thing that didn't work.
这‘心态’啊，说得都快烂大街了，你知道吧。
It's such a I mean, it's so overdone and so overused, you know, the idea of what your mindset is.
但说到底，真就是多给点信任，保持好奇，主动去找好的一面。
But it really is the mindset of giving people the benefit of the doubt, being curious, and looking for good.
伍登教练说过，你常常会找到你正在寻找的东西。
Coach Wooden said, you will often find what you're looking for.
是的。
Yeah.
你总会找到你心里想看的东西。
You always find what you're looking for.
对。
Right.
我就从他那儿学到了这一点。
And so I have just taken that lesson from him.
我不希望哪天回头后悔，说：真希望当初写下来了，趁她还在世的时候。
I didn't wanna look back one day and say, wished I'd written those things, well, while she was alive.
对啊。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
我不想留下‘没做’的遗憾
I didn't wanna have No.
你也不想有同样的遗憾吧。
You don't wanna have the same regret.
同样的遗憾。
Have the same regret.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，把那次遗憾变成动力，大概是我感情生活中最重要的一件事了。
And so taking that moment of regret became probably one of the greatest things that's happened to me in my relational life.
明白了。
Okay.
我继续说下去了，你真是宝藏级的见解。
I'm gonna keep going because you're a font of this amazing stuff.
你接触过那么多优秀的企业领袖，帮他们写书，或者哪怕只是帮他们写篇文章，结果都超出了他们的预期。
Great corporate leaders that you've had the opportunity to to either help them write their books or just help them, you know, maybe writing an article that somebody who was even better than you expected.
没错，他们名声在外，但你真坐下来跟他们聊，才会发现：天啊，这可不是装出来的。
Like, yes, have their reputation, but then you sit down with them, you're like, woah, this is not smoke and mirrors.
我特别想知道，你遇过谁，不仅没辜负名声，还比传闻中更厉害？
You know, I'm very curious who you met was not just good, as good as their reputation, but even better than their reputation.
我跟你说，我最近几年一直合作的、特别着迷的一个人，是达美航空的CEO埃德·巴斯蒂安。
I will tell you, the one that I'm just so fascinated with and have been working with for the last couple of years is Ed Bastian, the CEO of Delta.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我们刚一起写完一本书。
We just finished writing a book together.
这本书今年晚些时候会出版。
It'll come out later this year.
很多人觉得，顾客永远是对的。
Many people think, well, you know, the customer's always right.
这可不是他的理念。
That's not his philosophy.
他的理念是，我特别想了解我的员工，只要他们感受到被关心，就会真心对待客户，客户也就不用争谁对谁错了。
His philosophy is, I really wanna understand my employees, and if they know they're cared for, they will care for the customer so the customer doesn't have to argue about what's right or what's wrong.
没错。
Right.
所以他真正打造了一个良性循环。
And so he actually has what he calls a virtuous cycle.
我每天上班都想着，怎么让员工成功的可能性变得实实在在。
I'm gonna go to work every day on making the opportunity for my employees to be successful as real as possible.
我会给他们所需的资源。
I'm gonna give them the assets they need.
我会给他们必要的培训。
I'm gonna give them the training they need.
我还会给他们关爱，让他们觉得自己被重视。
I'm gonna give them the love they that will make them feel appreciated.
如果我们招进来、派到一线的员工本身就具备这些品质，他们自然会善待客户
And if those things exist in in the people that we're hiring and that we're putting out on the front line, they then will treat our customers
对
Right.
用同样的尊重、积极和热情去对待
With the same level of dignity and and positivity and energy.
而客户感受到这种态度，就会愿意买我们的产品，甚至愿意付更高的价格——这正是达美航空的特色
And if the customers are feeling that same level, they will then buy our product, maybe at a premium price, which Delta is known for.
这样一来，我就能有更多收入去更好地照顾员工
And as a result, I now have the revenue to take care of our employees better.
我特别喜欢这样
I love it.
对吧？
Right?
他每年都会把公司利润的10%以分红的形式返还给员工
He does every year, 10% of corporate profit goes back to the employees in profit sharing.
这事儿挺暖心的，但他偏偏选在情人节发。
It's a cool thing, but he gives it to them on Valentine's Day.
这是CEO写给员工的一封情书。
It's a love letter from the CEO.
是啊。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
每逢情人节，达美航空的每位员工都知道，这笔钱差不多相当于他们一个月的工资。
It's an opportunity to on Valentine's Day, every employee at Delta knows, and for most of them, it's the equivalent of one twelfth of their income.
对吧？
Right?
只要公司盈利，他们就能把这笔钱赚回来。
They're they're making that back if the company's profitable.
当然。
Sure.
不盈利的时候，这事就没了，你知道的。
When it's not, they, you know, it doesn't happen.
但他能站出来为员工说话，这真不容易。
But his ability to just and to stand up for employees Yeah.
他相信自己在为员工创造一个能让他们最大可能成功的环境，这很有意义。
And to believe that that that he is creating an environment for them that gives them their best chance for success is meaningful.
很难做到。
Hard to
规模化之后更难。
do at scale.
对吧？
Right?
不可能同时让五个人上场吧。
Wouldn't had five guys on the court at any one time.
对。
Right.
埃德·巴斯蒂安手下有十二万人。
Ed Bastian has a 120,000.
十二万人。
120,000.
你知道，要管这么多人可不容易，员工分布在全球各个枢纽。
And, you know, there are many things standing in the way, you know, distributed at workforce with hubs all over the world.
还有安检方面的难题。
There's TSA challenges.
各种规章制度也是一大障碍。
Regulations.
有意思的是，达美航空是唯一一家所有飞行员都由同一个工会代表的航空公司。
One thing that's interesting is that Delta is the only airline.
但其他所有部门都没这么做。
They have a pilot's union because all pilots are represented by the same union, but no other aspect of their
组织和工会，我记得当时投票了，因为西北航空本来是工会企业，收购西北之后，我觉得我算得没错。
organization And is union I remember they voted because Northwest was a union shop and when they bought Northwest, I think I've got my math right.
对。
Yep.
他们得重新投票。
They had to vote
去合并工会。
to deservate.
投票结果是达美员工人数压过了西北航空的员工。
Vote and the it was the Delta employees that outnumbered the Northwest employees.
没错。
Right.
实际投了票的是达美这边的人。
That actually voted.
不是。
No.
我们挺好。
We're good.
公司对我们挺照顾的。
They take care of us.
对。
Right.
我们不需要这个。
We don't need it.
是的。
Yeah.
就是说，要是公司坑我们，我们才需要它。
Like, we want it if the company screws us.
对。
Right.
那当然。
Obviously.
但我们现在挺好。
But we're good.
但你想想看。
But think about that.
对。
Right.
在
In a
一个工会力量很强的行业里，能让员工一直相信，他们人生最好的时光是在公司领导的带领下度过的，
highly unionized industry to be able to to constantly keep your employees believing their best days
是的。
Yeah.
而不是在那些……
Are when they're in the company of leadership as opposed to in the company of
而且我也知道，为了避免大家写愤怒的信什么的，我明白这事儿不可能完美。
And and, you know, and and just so people don't, you know, sort of write angry letters and things, you know, I understand that it's imperfect.
我也明白，规模大了之后真的很难搞。
I also understand that scale is difficult.
这家航空公司并不完美，但我喜欢它的态度，更喜欢它那种不断进取的精神——这才是最关键的。
It is an imperfect airline, but I like the attitude and I like the striving, which is the most important part.
对。
Yeah.
我们是在疫情刚结束那会儿，好几年前就开始写这本书了。
We began working on the book, many year several years ago right after COVID.
当时让我特别着迷的一点是，他认为在危机时刻，作为领导者最重要的事就是不停地沟通。
And one of the things that really fascinated me about COVID was he believed that in moments of crisis, your job as a leader is to overcommunicate.
所以他每天早上都会坐在办公室角落那把白色的椅子上，直接直播给所有员工。
So he would sit on a white chair much like ours here in the corner of his office, and every morning, he would livestream to all employees.
他会告诉员工他知道什么，也会坦率说哪些事他还不知道。
And he would tell them what he knew, and he would tell them when he didn't know the answer.
他还会回答员工的问题。
He would take questions from employees
是的。
Yeah.
但在那种时候，他选择了过度沟通，而很多时候，事情一难，人最想做的就是说‘我太忙了，没空露面’。
But he overcommunicated in that moment where a lot when things are tough, it's the easiest thing to do is to say I'm so busy, I don't have time to go step out front.
真正难的是，把这种沟通变成你生活的一部分，哪怕传递的信息并不总是让人舒服。
It's harder to make it a a regular piece of your being to actually deliver to those people even messages that might not always be comfortable.
明白了。
Okay.
所以我们现在有教练，有CEO，还有历史背景。
So we've got a coach, we've got a CEO, history.
你写的书也都是关于历史的。
You've written books about history as well.
没错。
I have.
在你做研究、写书的时候，有没有哪位历史上的领袖让你特别印象深刻？
Is there a historical leader that as you're doing the research as you're writing the book?
我写书的时候深有体会，一不小心就陷进各种旁支末节里出不来了。
Because I know this from writing books, which is, you know, you go down rabbit holes like crazy.
有的挺有价值，有的就纯属浪费时间。
Some of them good, of them not so useful.
其实我从写书的研究中学到的东西，比书本身还多，因为不是所有东西都能写进书里。
The learning that I get from researching a book is better than the book because not everything goes in the book.
对。
Right.
不可能全写进去。
Can't.
真的没法全塞进去。
It can't.
我知道自己因为写书、做研究，变得更好了——从别人身上学到了太多，了解了各种细节和微妙之处。
And I know that I'm a better person because I researched and wrote the book, because I learned so much from other people and what other people are doing or or other nuances.
你有没有哪个历史项目，写完书之后，觉得自己整个人都不一样了？
Was there a project that you worked on, a historical project that you worked on that you are a different person having written having learned those lessons or written a book?
我觉得现在正在做的这个项目就是，关于西奥多·罗斯福和他的儿子小西奥多·罗斯福。
I would argue it's one I'm working on right now on Teddy Roosevelt and his son, Teddy Roosevelt Junior.
西奥多·罗斯福他爸呢，当年居然花钱找人替他去打内战，自己躲着不上去，免得受伤。
Teddy Roosevelt had a had a father who, actually paid someone to take his place in the civil war so he didn't go out and potentially be injured.
对吧？
Right?
这种事在当时也不算特别稀奇，但在西奥多·罗斯福眼里，这事儿太不光彩了。
Which is was not completely uncommon, but but still, it was dishonorable in Teddy Roosevelt's opinion.
没错。
Right.
所以他家有钱，能掏钱买个替身不去打仗。
So That he had a rich family that could pay for him not to go to war.
对。
Right.
于是西奥多就说了，算了，我得自己上。
And so he, Teddy, said, you know what?
我可绝不会那样做。
I will be none of that.
你知道的，看看他在战场上的表现，还有其他方面的作为，西奥多·罗斯福从来不会错过任何一次挺身而出的机会。
And as you know, I mean, you look at his historic efforts in on the battlefield and otherwise, Teddy Roosevelt never ran never ran from an opportunity to fight.
对吧？
Right?
后来他当上了总统，期间生了个儿子，小西奥多·罗斯福，这孩子特别挣扎，一直在想：我该怎么配得上这样的父亲？
Then he becomes president, and in the process of all that, he has a son, Teddy Roosevelt Junior, who is struggling mightily because he's thinking, how do I live up to a father?
这真的太不寻常了。
It's so extraordinary.
是啊。
Yeah.
我该怎么做到呢？
How do I do that?
研究这对父子之间的关系，确实挺让人感慨的。
And studying the dynamic of these two men, father and son Yeah.
他们的故事特别棒，说实话，我有个17岁的儿子，这正好给了我俩一个特别好的话题来聊天。
And how they is is a great I mean, I'm I'm I've got a 17 year old son, and it's a great open door for my son and I to engage in conversation.
今年夏天我们要去诺曼底，因为小西奥多·罗斯福是唯一一位亲自带着部队冲上诺曼底海滩的将军。
We're going to Normandy this summer because Teddy Roosevelt Junior is the only general officer who actually stormed the beaches of Normandy with his troops.
他肩上戴着一颗将星。
So a star on his shoulder.
是的。
Yeah.
肩上一颗将星。
A star on his shoulder.
他当时在一辆希金斯艇里。
And he's and he's in he's in a Higgins.
他冲上了奥马哈海滩，你知道吗，那时候他年纪大了，还带着伤，得靠拐杖走路。
And he took Omaha he went onto Omaha Beach and and actually, you know, he was using a walking cane because he was a little older at that stage and had been injured.
他一定觉得，这可能是他最后的战斗了。
He must have believed that this was his last stand.
结果他三十六天后就去世了，说起来挺讽刺的，但关键是他确实上了诺曼底的海滩。
Well, he died thirty six days later, ironically, but the bottom line is that But he on the beaches of Normandy.
没错。
Right.
他并不是死在诺曼底海滩上的。
He didn't die on the beaches of Normandy.
他后来被授予了总统自由勋章。
He's recognized with with, you know, the presidential medal of freedom.
他得到了，你知道的……
He's got, you know
那这当父母的能学到啥呢？
So so what's the parenting lesson then?
是啊。
Yeah.
作为父母，从我目前对西奥多·罗斯福的研究来看，我觉得他根本没意识到儿子当时承受的压力。
The parenting lesson was that if I were to look at what I know of Teddy Roosevelt in my research so far, I don't think he saw the challenge that his son was feeling.
我觉得他没意识到儿子承受的压力有多大。
I don't think he understood the stress his son felt.
当泰迪·罗斯福的儿子，本身就够呛了。
Simply by being Teddy Roosevelt's son Right.
这压力可不是一般的。
Is a stressful experience.
光是顶着这个名字，就够受的。
Having the name.
是啊。
Yeah.
他整个人都被历史赋予的责任压得喘不过气。
And he was so, caught up in what he had to do for history.
对吧？
Right?
这可是泰迪啊。
This is Teddy.
是哪一个？
Which one?
老的那位。
Senior.
老罗斯福。
Teddy, senior.
是的。
Yeah.
他一心只想完成历史赋予他的使命。
So caught up in what he had to do for history.
他根本没注意到，自己的儿子整整好几年都陷入低落，因为他一直纠结：我能不能达到父亲那样的高度？
He in some ways missed that his very own son was literally in a funk for for several years because he could not figure out, could I ever live up to what my father was?
他是个坏父亲吗？老罗斯福？
Could I have Was he a bad father, Teddy Roosevelt senior?
他不是坏父亲，他是缺席的父亲。
He was not a bad father, he was an absent father.
对啊。
Right.
这其实挺常见的。
Which is very common.
没错。
Right.
我这周末刚跟一个朋友吃午饭，他是家大公司的CEO，有三个孩子，人特别好，孩子也特别爱他。
I just had lunch with a friend of mine just this weekend who, you know, CEO, big company and we talked about he's got three kids and he's a good dad and loves his and his kids love him.
孩子不怪他，但他自己承认，当年太拼事业了，陪他们的时间确实没达到自己想达到的程度。
They're not angry at him, but he admits, he was so focused on the company and the career that he probably wasn't around as much as he would have liked to have been.
说白了，这事儿咱也能理解。
I mean, can rationalize it to some degree.
他孩子都特别独立。
There were his kids are hyper independent.
你知道的，特别能自己照顾自己， partly 就是因为小时候不得不这样。
You know, they're very sort of self sufficient partially because they had to
就是。
be.
对。
Right.
他能说得通，不管好坏，孩子都挺好的。
He can rationalize that good or bad, they they turned out okay.
是的。
Yeah.
我能从他身上看出来。
I can see it in him.
他现在正努力弥补之前错过的时光。
He's, like, trying to make the effort to, like, make up a little bit for lost time.
你懂的？
You know?
这显然发生在泰迪·罗斯福计划之前。
And so this obviously occurred before the Teddy Roosevelt project did.
但明白这个问题——大多数成功的男人当了爸爸后都会面临这个挑战——十三年前，我和我妻子坐下来，彼此立了个约定：我每周外出不超过三个晚上。
But understanding that problem, that challenge from most successful men who become fathers, You know, thirteen years ago, my wife and I sat down and we we made a contract with each other that I would never be gone more than three nights in a calendar week.
对大多数人来说，这听起来可能还是很多。
That may still sound like a lot to most people.
是的。
Yeah.
但考虑到我们这行的工作性质， yeah。
But doing what we do Yeah.
你随时可能都在外面跑。
You could be gone all the time.
是的。
Yeah.
如果我把所有机会都接下，那到了第三天晚上，我日程上就会标红，谁都不能再加事了。
If I were to accept all these opportunities and so at the end of a third night when I'm on the road, my calendar goes red and nobody can add anything to it.
不管机会多好，我都得学会说不，这样我的孩子才能明白，我在他们身上投入的优先级有多高。
Doesn't matter how great the opportunity might be because I needed to be able to say no to things in order for my children to know, the level of priority that that I was trying to present them.
我最近悟出一件事。
Here's the thing I'm learning.
对吧？
Right?
这些沟通啊，不管是在平静的时候，还是在生气的时候，都会发生。
Which is these communications happen in the time of peace, in the time of anger.
对吧？
Right?
因为大多数关系里的这类对话，其实都是在……
Because these conversations for most relationships happen
我本来想跟你说，这次是在平静状态下发生的。
Now I would love to tell you that this one happened at peace.
但实际上，那会儿我出差太频繁了。
It was actually during a window in which I was traveling too much.
嗯，是这样。
Okay.
所以，我跟你说实话，这个
So so I I will be honest with you that that the
我很感谢你这么说。
I appreciate it.
那咱们给听节目的人提个建议吧，趁双方都心平气和的时候把这事谈了。
Well, then let's let's give the advice for those who are listening to this to make the conversation happen in a time of peace.
那肯定好太多了。
It would be so much better.
我到底出门几天算合理？
Which is how many days is reasonable for me to be away?
出差到底该是什么样子？
What does a business trip look like?
咱们得定个规矩吧？
What is the contract?
我特别喜欢有这么个约定。
And I love the fact that there's a contract.
就是，咱们到底签了什么协议，对吧？
Like, what's the what's the agreement Right.
你知道的，咱们为这个家打拼，没人临终前会后悔说：‘我该多去几次差的。’
You know that we have in this for this family because nobody lies on their deathbed and wishes they went on another business.
对啊。
Right.
没错。
Yeah.
但人们常常后悔的是，自己错过了太多陪孩子的时间。
But people regret the amount of time that they're away from their kids.
我听过太多人给自己找借口了。
And I've heard people rationalize it up the wazoo.
你想想，我这么拼命工作，不都是为了你吗？
You know, I do this hard work for you Right.
为了维持咱们现在的生活， blah blah blah。
To preserve the lifestyle that we live blah blah blah.
我当时就想，行吧，别给我那么多排场了。
I was like well, give me a little less lifestyle.
少点享受，多陪陪孩子，我天天都愿意换。
I mean, me a little less and a little more parent and I'll take it every day.
顺便说一句，这种说法纯属胡扯。
By the way, think that answer is complete bullshit.
我觉得但凡有人拿这个当借口，其实都是自己贪恋那种生活方式或者钱，却编出理由来哄家里人。
I think anybody who says that it's a rationalization, it's their own ego who likes the lifestyle or likes the money that they can rationalize to their family.
我这么拼都是为了你，
I do all this for you,
是啊，
you Yeah.
这完全是瞎扯，
That is complete by
说白了。
the way.
你都没问过我到底要不要这东西，就给我买？
Buy me an But you've never asked me if I even want the thing.
对啊。
Right.
你看，我给你买了件毛衣。
It's like, look, I bought this sweater for you, dad.
我最讨厌毛衣了。
Hate sweaters.
你懂的吧？
You know?
我不穿毛衣，可我还是给你买了，可我又不……
It's like, I don't wear sweaters, but I bought it for you, but I don't
我不穿毛衣。
wear sweaters.
这毛衣挺好看的。
It's super nice.
是啊。
Yeah.
这可是最贵的毛衣了，爸。
It's It's the most expensive sweater there is, dad.
我不穿毛衣。
I don't wear sweaters.
对啊。
Yeah.
说实话，这纯粹就是自我安慰，一堆屁话——顺便说一句，我脑子就这么想的。
You know, so I I think that's largely a rationalization and a pile of shit, which by the way, just because, you know, this is how my mind works.
那些只看短期股东利益的领导也总说：‘我这么做是为了保住大家的工作’，其实也是这套说辞。
It's the same bullshit rationalization when short term shareholder focused leaders say, but I'm doing this to to help provide jobs.
嗯，有道理。
I'm like, true.
不对。
Not true.
因为你动不动就裁员。
Because you're willing to lay people off at the drop of a hat.
没错。
Right.
如果你真那么在乎创造就业，为啥困难时期不拼了命保住岗位呢？
So if you cared so much about job creation, why don't you work tooth and nail to preserve jobs in hard times?
所以啊，这纯粹就是找借口，好让自己觉得裁员这事没那么糟。
So, yeah, that's it's all rationalization to make us feel good about the fact that our Right.
我们的价值观——来掩盖我们自身的矛盾。
Our our values To make our our misalignment question
就是为了给那些扭曲的价值观找借口。
It's it's it's to rationalize our misaligned values.
说白了就是这么回事。
That's exactly what it is.
对。
Yep.
但我喜欢这一点，就是让你的价值观保持一致。
But what I like about this is, align your values.
对。
Right.
我特别喜欢签合同这个想法。
And I love the idea of making a contract.
我也喜欢达成协议这个概念。
I love the idea of making an agreement.
想想那些出色的企业领袖，他们其实都在做这样的承诺。
If I think of some of the great leaders in business too, they they kind of make that promise.
是啊。
Yeah.
你懂的。
You know?
你必须这么做。
And you have to.
你必须这么做，因为一切终将显现。
You have to because because everything shows up.
我的意思是，工作、成就这些，全都是暂时的，对吧？
I mean, everything is temporary, right, when it comes to our work and our success and all this.
总有一天，这些东西除了你自己，再没人会在意。
There will be a day when none of that will be on anybody else's radar screen but ours.
是的。
Yeah.
那时候你就会想，到底还剩下什么。
And then you gotta wonder what's what's left.
你有没有可能是谁心中的约翰·伍登？
Are you the John Wooden to somebody?
我不是每个月都这样，但确实有几个人，我主动答应去指导，也花时间陪他们。
So not every other month, but I do have a handful of people that I, have intentionally agreed to mentor and and spent time with.
讲这个故事的时候有个难点，就是别人一听，哦，是啊。
One of the challenges of telling that story of like, you know, having Oh, yeah.
然后你就突然明白了，对吧？
Is that then suddenly I mean, you get it.
对吧？
Right?
突然间，一堆信就来了，说：嘿，我听了你的故事，
Is it suddenly get all these letters going, hey, you know what?
我也想找个人当导师。
I heard you tell a story and I'm looking for a mentor too.
所以我给自己定了一些标准，想跟我建立师徒关系的人得先做到这些。
And so I tried to set some standards that I expect of people if they wanna be in a mentoring relationship with me.
要是有人在路上拦住我，说些特别暖心的话，夸我的工作，我真特别感激。
Had somebody walk up to me on the street and said some very nice things and likes my work, I'm super grateful for.
然后他说，这对我来说是个机会。
And then, you know, he says this is my opportunity.
我从来没想过能有机会见到你。
I know I didn't think I'd ever get to meet you.
你愿意当我的导师吗？
Will you be my mentor?
关于导师这件事，我真心觉得，真正的导师应该是这样的。
And this is my my absolute honest opinion about mentorship, which is true mentorship.
咱们先说清楚，什么叫导师。
And let's define what mentor is.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得咱们对这个概念理解错了。
I think we misunderstandment.
没错。
Right.
我们总觉得导师就是那些比我们成就大、经验多的人，想向他们学习。
We think a mentor is somebody who has achieved something or done more than we have and we wanna learn from them.
对。
Right.
但其实这只对了一部分。
You know, which is only partially true.
真正的导师，是愿意为你腾出时间的人。
A mentor is somebody who makes time for you.
对。
Mhmm.
我有个导师，叫罗恩·布鲁德。
I have a mentor by the name of Ron Bruder.
我刚认识罗恩的时候，是别人介绍我们认识的。
And when I first met Ron, somebody introduced us.
那时候我还在事业初期，年纪也小。
I was pretty young in my journey.
有人跟我们说：你们俩肯定合得来。
And somebody said you guys will get along.
我当时根本不知道罗恩是谁，按我一贯的风格，见面前也没去查过他的背景。
And I didn't know who Ron was and in typical Simon fashion, didn't look it up before I met him.
有人跟我说我该去见见他。
Somebody said I should meet him.
我还用得着再多了解啥？
What more do I need?
对吧？
Right?
我就这么跑去Ron的办公室，心里还嘀咕：这人是谁啊？
And so I show up for Ron's office being like, oh, who's this guy?
对吧？
Right?
我想着，边聊边了解他到底是何方神圣吧。
I figure I'd learn, you know, over the conversation who he is.
我一坐下，发现Ron穿着整套三件套西装。
And I literally sit down and Ron's in a three piece suit.
是啊。
Mhmm.
他还带了个文件夹，里面全是关于我的资料。
And he's got a folder filled with stuff about me.
我当时就觉得自己完蛋了。
And I'm like, I'm a goner.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
我们聊得特别开心，他特别有魅力，人也特别好。
We had such a lovely time, and he was so charming and so wonderful.
那是因为你讲故事讲得好。
This is because you were a good storyteller.
没错。
Yeah.
就是这么回事。
Exactly.
没错。
Right.
所以他
So he
特别会讲故事。
was a good storyteller.
而且特别有魅力，人也特别好。
And he was just charming and lovely.
我记得过了几周，我遇到个难题，怎么都想不明白答案。
And I remember a few weeks went by and like I had question or something that was difficult that I didn't know the answer.
我就想，根据我跟罗恩的那次见面，他肯定有自己的看法。
And I knew, you know, based on my meeting with Ron, I've been like, I bet he has a point of view.
于是我给他办公室打了电话，问他在不在。
So I called his office and said, is he in?
结果他亲自接了我的电话。
And he took my call.
几周后，又发生了一件事。
And a few weeks later, something else came up.
我就想，Ron会怎么看待这件事呢？
And I thought, I wonder what Ron would think about this.
我又打了他办公室的电话，他还是接了。
And I called his office and he took my call.
后来就变成一起吃午饭，再后来他邀我：‘这周末来我家玩吧？’
And then it became lunch and then it became, you know, why don't you come to my house this weekend and hang out?
他成了我特别重要的导师，也是我特别要好的朋友。
And he became a dear mentor and a dear friend.
我记得有次我第一次用了‘导师’这个词，正要走，道别时我侧身搂了他一下。
And I remember I used the m word for the first time and I was getting ready to leave and I was saying my goodbyes and I put my arm around him as it was sideways as I was getting ready to go.
我就跟他说：‘Ron，真高兴你是我导师。’
And I'm like, you know, Ron, I'm so glad you're my mentor.
是的。
Mhmm.
他跟我说了句我完全没想到的话。
And he said something I didn't expect.
他说：‘我也特别高兴，你是我这边的。’
He said, and I'm so glad you're mine.
我从来没想过，罗恩其实也从我这儿学到了很多——从我提的问题，或者因为我比他年轻得多，能带来完全不同的视角，他也从和我的相处里获得了快乐和成长。
It never occurred to me that Ron was learning as much from me from the questions I asked or from a completely different perspective just because I'm considerably younger than he is that he derived joy and learning from my time with him as well.
我这才明白，真正好的师徒关系，不是那种高高在上、我来传授智慧给你的模式。
And I realized that great mentor relationships aren't this sort of higher or more insightful mentor mentee that I'm wise and I bestow my you know, my wisdom upon thee.
根本不是这么回事。
That's not what it is.
而是双方都带着同样的热情去学、去教，这才是真正的双向师徒关系，只是各自学到的东西不一样罢了。
That the mentor shows up with equal excitement to learn and to teach and that's why it's more of a mentor mentor relationship though the lessons are different.
没错。
Right.
你跟罗恩之间是这样，这挺有意思的，因为伍登教练对我也是这样，他当时跟我说的，就是这话。
So it's interesting you have that with Ron because that was exactly what Coach Wooden was and that's exactly what he said to me.
是的。
Yeah.
他说，你知道吗，我从你身上汲取能量。
He said, you know what, I derive energy.
你回来跟我讲你做了什么，我就觉得特别有劲。
I take energy from you coming back and telling me what you did.
有时候你问我问题，逼我回想那些早就忘在脑后的事，就这么一琢磨，每次聊完我都觉得特别有活力。
I take energy from the sometimes you're asking me questions, you're asking me to go back in my in my memory and and think about things I haven't thought about And in by doing that, I leave these sessions Yeah.
充满干劲。
Energized.
这可是个90岁的老头儿。
And this is a 90 year old guy.
对啊。
Yeah.
你说是不是？
Right?
我特别喜欢这一点，因为他也是这么看的。
And I I love that because he did he saw the same thing.
我就跟这孩子这么说的。
And that's what I said to this kid.
我跟这孩子说：‘我真的很感动。’
I said to this kid, I said to him, I'm flattered.
我特别感激。
I'm grateful.
但你总不能随便在路上拉个陌生人说：‘你当我的朋友吧？’
But you couldn't go up to a stranger on the street and say, will you be my friend?
感情哪有这么来的。
It doesn't work that way.
友情是慢慢培养出来的。
Friendships evolve.
对啊。
Mhmm.
你不能随便选。
You can't just choose.
对。
Mhmm.
我说，导师关系也是同样的道理。
I said it's the same with a mentor relationship.
你不能上去就对个陌生人说：你当我的导师吧？
You can't just go up to a stranger and say, will you be my mentor?
事情不是这么办的。
It doesn't work that way.
我根本不认识你。
I don't know you.
好。
Mhmm.
我说，我相信你人很好，但真不是这么回事。
I said, I'm sure you're lovely, but that's not how it works.
是的。
Mhmm.
我所有的导师关系，都是慢慢发展起来的。
And all the mentor relationships that I have evolved.
我慢慢认识了一个人，然后他就成了我的导师。
And I got to know someone and they became my mentor.
我从来不会在第一天就直接问：你愿意当我的导师吗？
I never said on day one, will you be?
因为这么一问，就变成了一种交易关系。
Because it sets up an expectation of it's sort of a transactional relationship.
我觉得真正的导师，是总会为你腾出时间的人。
And I think the way I define mentor is a mentor always makes time for you.
不管多忙，他都会抽时间帮你。
They always have time for you.
再忙也会有时间，就像朋友一样。
No matter how busy they are, they have time for you, like a friend.
是的。
Mhmm.
导师关系就像友谊一样，是慢慢发展的。
And and mentorships like friendships evolve.
这跟导师项目可不一样。
Now that's different than a mentorship program.
虽然用的词一样，但其实不是一回事。
And though I know the words are the same, it's not quite the same thing.
对。
Yeah.
我对那些总有点拿不准。
I struggle with those.
导师关系可不是帮你站台的人。
And a mentor relationship is not a champion.
对。
Mhmm.
你知道吗，他们对你职业发展根本管不了。
You know, they have no control over your career.
他们没法帮你说话，争取升职。
They can't put in a good word for your promotion.
那才叫真正的支持者。
That's a champion.
你也得有这种支持者才行。
You should have champions as well.
没错。
Right.
有时候，这两者会有点重叠。
And occasionally, those things overlap.
但最好的导师，甚至可能不在你公司里。
But the best mentors are not even in your company.
他们可能连你这个行业都不在。
They may not even be in your industry.
他们唯一关心的就是
The only thing they care about is
你。
you.
你。
You.
没错。
Right.
我觉得每个人都得有个导师。
I think everybody has to have a mentor.
对。
Mhmm.
其实就是那些朋友，你们的友情慢慢变成了像父母一样关心你的那种关系，不只是一起出去玩、吃吃饭、开心一下。
Basically it's these friends that the friendship kind of takes on a bit more of a parental caring dynamic, not just a let's go out and have a have a, you know, have a good time and, you know, share a meal.
他们更在乎的是你这个人。
They take on more of a I care about you dynamic.
对我来说，和伍登教练的关系持续了整整十二年。
The relationship with coach Wooden for me, I mentioned it was, you know, twelve years long.
大概到了第十年，教练看着我说：唐，你都写了这么多书了。
And about the tenth year, coach looked at me and he said, Don, you know, you've written all these books.
你写过关于这个、那个的书，可你为啥从来没想过让我也写一本？
You've written books on this and that, but why have you never asked me to write a book?
我当时就说：因为我不想玷污我们的关系。
And I went, because I don't wanna pollute our relationship.
我是真的珍惜能从你这儿学到的东西。
Like, I love what what I get a chance to learn.
我不是来从你身上赚钱的。
I'm not here to profit from you.
他接着说：那如果我们合写一本关于导师制的书呢？
And he goes, but what if we wrote a book on mentorship?
于是我们就一起写了这本书。
And so we did a book together.
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