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你看到的可是真正的机会。
You're looking at real opportunity.
去阿姆斯特丹做那份真正的工作，而不是留在这里空想，但人们却选择了空想。
Go and do this thing in Amsterdam that's real work versus stay here for your imagination, and people choose imagination.
我……
I...
我对此感到困惑。
I'm confused by that.
对那种观点，我们得宽容一点，因为想象力不就是一种计划，一种愿景吗？
To, offer offer that view some grace a little bit because what is imagination but a but a plan, you know, a plan and and a vision.
我觉得，毫无疑问，我们之前确实计划不足。
I think inarguably did not have enough of a plan.
我能理解有计划的价值，但我觉得，别太死守计划，以至于看不到机会。
I can see the value of having a plan, but I guess it's like, don't don't be so locked into your plan that you don't recognize an opportunity.
这有点像，观点坚定但保持开放。
It's kinda like strong opinions loosely held.
对。
Like Yeah.
有计划，但要愿意偏离计划。
Have a plan, but be open to going off the plan.
这才是正道。
That's the way.
年轻时，我们会决定长大后想成为什么样的人。
When we're young, we make a decision about what we want to be when we grow up.
然后制定计划去实现它。
And we make a plan to make that happen.
我们学的东西、追求的机会，都按那个计划来。
The things we study, the opportunities we pursue, all go according to that plan.
但如果计划本身成了实现梦想的障碍呢？
But what happens if the plan is the obstacle to achieving our dreams?
更糟的是，如果我们根本看不到计划就是障碍呢？
Worse, what if we can't see that the plan is the obstacle?
有时候，大胆地偏离计划，才是我们为自己做的最好的事情，这正是我想和布伦丹·亨特聊聊的原因。
Sometimes taking the risk to go wildly off the plan is the best thing we can do for ourselves, which is exactly why I wanted to talk to Brendan Hunt.
我们大多数人认识布伦丹，是因为他在《足球教练》里演的比尔德教练，这部剧在Apple TV上已经播到第四季了。
Most of us know Brendan as Coach Beard from the show Ted Lasso, which is back for its fourth season on Apple TV.
布伦丹还有一个单人秀，叫《你需要的动作》，可能在2027年登上百老汇。
Brendan also has a solo show called The Movement You Need, which may hit Broadway in 2027.
但如果布伦丹当初坚持原计划，这些都不会发生。
But none of that would have happened if Brendan had stuck to his original plan.
布伦丹就是活生生的例子，证明跟着直觉走，而不是死守计划，可能是我们为自己和事业做的最好的选择。
Brendan is living proof that trusting our gut over the plan may be the single best thing we can do for ourselves and our careers.
布伦丹冒了很大的险，离开美国，去了阿姆斯特丹工作，当时没人觉得这是个明智的职业选择。
Brendan took the crazy risk to leave America to take a job in Amsterdam of all places, a decision that nobody thought was a smart career move.
但正是在那里，他爱上了足球，还遇到了杰森·苏戴奇斯。
And yet it was there that he gained a love for soccer and met Jason Sudeikis.
正是他选择偏离计划，才让他成为《足球教练》的艾美奖获奖编剧、制片人和联合创作者之一。
It was his choice to go off the plan that led Brendan to becoming one of the Emmy award winning writers, producers, and co creators of Ted Lasso.
这个道理很深刻。
The lesson is profound.
有时候，做自己想做的事，那些别人觉得不明智的事，反而会成为我们人生中最好的决定。
Sometimes doing things we want to do, the things that others think are unwise, will be the best decisions we make for our lives.
如果你喜欢这期节目，记得订阅哦。
If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe.
这里是《一点乐观》。
This is A Bit of Optimism.
本期节目由SAP赞助播出。
This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP.
好奇心是天生的，还是可以后天培养的？
Is curiosity natural or can it be taught?
事实证明，每个人都能学会好奇，而且正是那些好奇的人，从生活中收获更多，在事业上进步更快，整个人也不断成长。
It turns out anyone can learn to be curious, and it's the curious ones that get more out of life, advance quicker in their careers, and just generally grow as human beings.
我们越学会好奇，就越会发现，有好多扇门为我们打开。
The more we learn to be curious, it's surprising how many doors open for us.
布伦丹，非常高兴你能来。
Brendan, it's so good to have you here.
西蒙，能来这里真是太好了。
It's great to be here, Simon.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
我觉得大家可能不太了解，你其实是个多么疯狂、有创意、又有点疯癫的人。
I don't think people recognize or know in how how wonderfully insane and mad and creative you are.
我多少知道一些。
I know some of it.
因为我去阿姆斯特丹看过你的演出，你的独角戏，基本上就是你的生平故事。
Because I came to see your show in Amsterdam, your one man show in Amsterdam, which is basically your life story
那确实挺疯狂的。
Which is pretty nuts.
在那之前，
Till that time,
至少是这样。
at least.
你看了……
You saw...
你当时看了那个……
Saw that sometime...
我的单人秀《阿姆斯特丹五年》，是我在阿姆斯特丹住了五年之后，从2004年开始写的。
My solo show, Five Years in Amsterdam, which I wrote starting in 2004 after having lived five years in Amsterdam.
你是在2223年看的吗？
And you saw it in 2223?
差不多吧。
Something like that.
我觉得那场演出算是我正式的告别演出，就像维京人的葬礼一样，是我最后一次演那个节目。
And I believe that was my official, like, Viking funeral last performance I was doing in that show.
我在那边合作过的剧院，芝加哥的那家，点名要我去演这场。
The theater I used work for out there, Chicago, had requested it.
所以，是的，这是我离开阿姆斯特丹之前的人生故事。
So, yeah, it's my life story up until leaving Amsterdam.
现在我要讲一个你们都没看过的演出，但这就是我们要做的。
Now I'm gonna talk about a show none of you have seen, but this is what we're gonna do.
我很喜欢这个演出，但很明显，这也是一个年轻一些的人的作品。
I like the show very much, but it's also, like, clearly the show of a of a younger man.
但做起来很有趣。
But it was fun to do.
给它一个好好的告别很有趣，我也很高兴你
It was fun to give it a good send off, and I was glad you
那我们稍微回顾一下。你知道，我对有职业生涯的人感到好奇的一点是，有多少人正在实现童年的梦想，又有多少人只是随波逐流，经历各种曲折，以及人们如何学会该接受什么、该拒绝什么。
So let's back up a little bit, which is, you know, one of the things I'm fascinated about people with careers is how many people are living their childhood dreams and how many of us just sort of like the sort of the twists and turns of where we find ourselves and how people learn what to say yes to and what to say no to.
我觉得你的职业生涯就是充满曲折的。
I think your career is a twisty turny one.
你是在哪里长大的？
So where did you grow up?
芝加哥。
Chicago.
那……
So...
一个在芝加哥长大的孩子，怎么会在阿姆斯特丹待了那么多年？
And how does a kid who grew up in Chicago end up for how many years in Amsterdam?
我主要待了五年，但后来又零零散散去了两次，因为我总是忍不住回去。
My main chunk was five, but then I piecemeal two more because I kept going back.
你总是忍不住回去。
You kept going back.
那……
So...
那你会说荷兰语吗？
And and you speak Dutch?
会一点。
A little.
足够让不懂的人佩服，让懂的人抓狂。
Enough to impress people who don't and frustrate people who do.
所以我很佩服你会说荷兰语？
So I'm impressed that you speak Dutch?
我就会个Dunkveld之类的。
Dunkveld is, like, all I know.
我先问，你小时候想成为什么样的人？
I'll start as what did you wanna be when you grew up?
然后怎么...
And then what...
你怎么...
How did you get...
你怎么...
How did you...
你为什么去海上工作？
Why did you go offshore?
基本上，从演七年级的校剧《国王与我》开始，我就知道自己至少会当演员。
I basically knew I was gonna be at least an actor from doing the seventh grade school play, which was The King and I.
我演的是路易，国王的儿子。
I played Louis, son of I.
然后呢，其实没怎么考虑过其他可能，就觉得演戏就是我要走的路了。
And then it was like nothing really was ever considered, like that was just gonna be it.
不过对我影响很大的一晚是八年级第一次看第二城喜剧团的演出，当时真的被震撼到了。
A huge night of impact for me though was seeing Second City for the first time in eighth grade and just being blown away by what was going on there.
当时的演员阵容里有邦妮·亨特，她那天晚上的表现简直太棒了。
That cast included Bonnie Hunt who was phenomenal that night in particular.
我觉得那件事让我萌生了一个念头：哦，原来我也可以写剧本。
And I think that probably introduced the notion to me of like, oh, can write stuff too.
后来嘛，你知道的，我就去伊利诺伊州立大学读大学了。
Then, you know, go to Illinois State for college.
他们学校的戏剧专业特别强。
They have great theater program.
Steppenwolf的创始成员大多都是在伊利诺伊州立大学认识的。
Most of the original founders of Steppenwolf all met at Illinois State.
他们当年的老师，有些现在还在教我，你知道吗，而且你当时是……
The teachers they had were some of the teachers that I still had, you know, this And were you
你当时是为舞台还是银幕做准备，还是……
setting yourself up for stage or screen or did...
还是你就是想当演员？
Or you're just actor?
就是当演员。
Just actor.
好的。
Okay.
真的。
Really.
但可能对银幕的关注远远不够，因为那时我已经接触了不少芝加哥的戏剧，特别是即兴表演和第二城市剧团，算是经常看。
But probably with nowhere near enough attention to screen because by then I'd been exposed to a fair amount of of theater in Chicago, you know, a steady diet of of improv and, Second City in particular.
但伊利诺伊州立大学，他们非常严格地遵循Steppenwolf的理念，比如，连摄影课都没有。
But Illinois State, they they hewed so tightly to the sort of Steppenwolf ethos that, like, there wasn't a camera class.
我不知道有没有，反正不是必修的。
I don't know if if there was, it wasn't required.
我们所有的训练都是那种，你知道的，厨房水槽式的，实实在在的，时刻充满激情，那种粗粝的舞台风格。
Like, all we were working with was like, you know, kitchen sink, nuts and bolts, passionate at all times, you know, sort of gritty stage.
真正的舞台表演。
Real stage work.
这对我的即兴表演有帮助，我觉得。
Helped my improv, I'd say.
我的即兴表演帮助了我的舞台表演。
My improv helped my stage acting.
如果非要形容我，我真的觉得自己更像是一个舞台演员。
And I do sort of feel like I am of the stage more than anything else if I had to had to describe me.
但当然，我也喜欢电影和电视。
But certainly, like, I like movies and TV too.
我就是……
I just I just...
不知道为什么，这件事我其实没怎么想过。
It's for some reason, it wasn't even something I I thought about as much.
而且即使是那些我最敬佩的Steppenwolf的人出现在电视上，我往往也不会把那看作是他们的全部。
And even when Steppenwolf people who were the ones I admired, you know, the most would show up on TV, I tended not to think of that as part of them in a way.
尽管他们会……
Even though they would...
他们会表现得很棒，比如Lori McCaffin在《Roseanne》里，我妈妈特别喜欢《Roseanne》。
They'd be great, you know, like Lori McCaffin Roseanne, you know, my, you know, my mom particularly loved Roseanne.
我们经常看。
We watched it all the time.
Laurie Metcalf在那部剧里演得很好。
Laurie Metcalf's great in that show.
John Malkovich，我记得我看他的第一部电影是《火线狙击》，虽然我觉得他自己可能不认为那是他最好的表演，但他……
John Malkovich, I think the first movie his I saw was In the Line of Fire, which I don't think he would even call his his best performance, but he's...
我记得他好像凭这个拿了奥斯卡奖。
He won an Oscar for it, I believe.
是吗？
Did he?
那部电影确实很棒。
That was a great film.
挺有意思的。
It's fun.
挺有意思的。
It's fun.
我其实完全没想过镜头前表演这回事。
I'm not really thinking about camera acting at all.
后来在芝加哥，大学毕业后，我基本上每个周末都在演出，但有时候是和即兴剧团，有时候是和我自己的戏剧公司。
And then in Chicago after college, I'm I'm basically always performing every weekend, but sometimes it's with an improv company or sometimes it's with, you know, my theater company that I had.
你偶尔会听到即兴圈子里有人提起一个叫“芝加哥热潮”的地方。
You would hear once in while the improv circles about this place called Boom Chicago.
而Boom Chicago，我只知道它在阿姆斯特丹，而且是由一些芝加哥人创办的。
And Boom Chicago, all I knew about it was it was in Amsterdam, and it was founded by some Chicago people.
所以他们在那边做的，就是我们熟悉的芝加哥式即兴表演。
And so they were doing, like, Chicago improv as we knew it out there.
第二城市那种风格，那种……
The second city style, that kind of
我所知道的最好的。
Best I knew.
作品。
Ouvre.
我用了“作品”这个词。
I used the word ouvre.
那真是，真是……谢谢。
That's really, really Thank you.
你知道吗，你特意提到这一点……
Like, you know, the fact that you called attention to
我知道。
it I know.
有点毁了。
Kinda ruined it.
我是说
I mean
我没有
I didn't
想让别人觉得我是个装逼的人。
want people to think I was a snob.
我会……
I'll...
我待会儿要甩个法语词进去，然后……
I'm gonna throw a French word in later, and it's gonna...
咱们就扯平了。
We'll be even Stevens.
但是，你知道，我认识一个人去过那儿又回来了，他……
But, you know, I knew one dude had gone there and come back and, like, he...
你知道，我跟他没那么熟，没法深聊，但他对那儿的评价挺正面的。
You know, I didn't know him that well to, like, get into with him, but he's, he he spoke positively of it.
我还认识另一个人，去了那儿就再没回来，然后我就想，行吧。
I know another guy who had gone there and never came back and, like, okay.
有意思。
Interesting.
不过有一次他们来搞试镜，你会听说他们到城里了，你知道，他们大概一年来一次，他们来喜剧运动场看我表演。
But one time when they came around to do auditions, you'd hear when they were in town, you know, they'd come, like, once a year, and they came to see me at, comedy sports where I was performing.
嗯，他们见了一群人，包括我，然后他们让我去试镜。
Well, they saw a bunch of people, but including me, and they asked me to audition.
然后，你知道，我的第一反应就是，去他妈的，不可能。
And, you know, my knee jerk reaction was, like, no fucking way.
我要去阿姆斯特丹待一年？
Am I going to Amsterdam for a year?
这也太离谱了。
That's ridiculous.
对我的喜剧事业、即兴表演事业来说。
For my comedy career, my improv career.
这简直了，尽管我从来没离开过美国，而且事业上也没什么起色。
This is, like, despite the fact that I'd never left The US, and also, like, nothing's really happening to me career wise.
你周末就做点小演出？
You're doing your small shows on the weekends?
做我的小演出。
Doing my small shows.
那时候，我已经在Steppenwolf剧院做过一个剧目的替补演员了。
I had, by then, understudied a show at Steppenwolf.
你有没有一份维持生计的工作，还是说……
Did you have a survival job, or was...
你能靠当演员赚钱吗？
Were you able to make money as an actor?
没有。
No.
我当时在做临时工，然后……
I was temping and...
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
离靠演戏赚钱还差得远呢。
Nowhere near making money as an actor.
一场演出也就20美元。
You're like, $20 a show.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
演出结束后，你把这些钱都花在跟哥们儿喝酒上了。
You're blowing that on the on the beard with the gang after the show.
但那时候他们来找我的时候，我正处在离婚的当口。
But the context of this time when they came around was like, I'm in the middle of getting divorced.
我大学一毕业就结婚了，后来有人跟我说，那会儿结婚有点太年轻了。
Like, I got married straight out of college, which, as some have told me since then, is a little young.
结果没过多久，大学刚毕业就离婚了。
And I was very soon getting divorced out of college.
而且我自己也有那种，你知道，童年时期的情感包袱，从来没好好处理过。
And I also just had my own, like, emotional, you know, childhood baggage that I'd never worked through at all in any way.
我就只是，你知道，一直往前冲，一场接一场地演出。
I was just like just, you know, running straight ahead, you know, show show show show show.
所以我去试镜的时候，其实是出于一种责任感，我听说每个演员都应该尽可能去参加每一次试镜，现在想想，这其实不是什么好建议。
And so when I went to the audition, which I went to out of a sense of obligation, I'd I'd heard that, like, every actor should go to every audition they can, which is is now, I think, not not really that great of advice.
但我还是去了……
But I went...
碰碰运气嘛。
Playing the numbers.
然后我环顾四周，发现……
And looking around, it was...
房间里有些人就说，哦，我以前看过那个人即兴表演。
There was some people in the room who was like, oh, I've seen that person improvise before.
他们真的很有趣。
They're really fun.
哦，而且他们真的很好笑。
Oh, and they're they're really funny.
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
行吧。
Alright.
嗯，这批人不错。
Well, this this is a a good cohort.
然后，你知道，在他们让我们玩游戏之前，艺术总监乔西·奥莱利，在我眼里是澳大利亚即兴表演和喜剧的女神，她……
And then, you know, before they had us play any games, the the artistic director, Josie O'Reilly, Australian goddess of improv and comedy in my book, she...
她关于阿姆斯特丹的那番话，大概在……
Her her spiel about Amsterdam, like, within...
她刚说完，我就觉得，这是我一生中最想要的东西。
Just by the time she was done talking, like, I want this more than anything I've ever wanted in my entire life.
而且我得到了。
And got it.
然后我去的时候，本来打算待一年。
And then when I went, I was looking to go for a year.
结果，就像之前透露的，最后
And, yeah, as has been spoiled, ended
待了五年。
up staying for five.
她是怎么说的，让你这么想要？
What was her pitch that made you want it so badly?
我只记得一些片段。
Like fragments of it.
一个……
One...
首先，我意识到我会经常演出，而且这就是我的工作，你知道吗。
For one thing, the realization that I would be performing constantly and that it would be the job, you know.
而且他们会付你足够的钱来生活。
And they'll pay you enough to to to live.
我当时就想，哦，这挺吸引人的。
It was like, oh, that's appealing.
然后，你知道，她描述阿姆斯特丹的方式，而且那时候《低俗小说》已经上映了。
And then, you know, the way she was describing Amsterdam and, like, by then Pulp Fiction had come out.
我当时对阿姆斯特丹的了解，就只有《低俗小说》和弗兰克、约翰·列侬和洋子在那里度蜜月这些。
Like, all I knew about Amsterdam by then is, like, Pulp Fiction and Frank, John Lennon, and and Yoko having their honeymoon there.
而且我还以为这些事是同时发生的。
And for all I knew, those happened simultaneously.
但听她讲阿姆斯特丹，让我觉得……
But hearing her talk about Amsterdam made me...
就像，现实是，哦，这真的是一个机会，可以真正离开这里，而且去的地方听起来比你想的还要棒。
Like, the reality of, like, oh, this is this is an opportunity to, like, get the hell out of here, actually, and to do it in a place that sounds more amazing than you've given it credit for.
这有点像游轮的推销，对吧？就是那种，当然啦。
Was this a little bit like the cruise ship pitch, which is like, sure.
虽然是在游轮上，但你可以每天表演。
It's a cruise ship, but you'll get to perform every day.
就像，这……
Like, does it...
就像，地点重要吗？还是说，推销的一部分是，天哪。
Like, did it matter where it was, or was the was the pitch partially, oh my god.
我是个演员。
I'm an actor.
我是搞即兴表演的。
I'm an improv guy.
我能做我喜欢的事，靠做我喜欢的事谋生。
I get to do the thing I want, make a living doing the thing I want.
这是主要的动力吗？
Was that the primary driver?
我觉得主要是阿姆斯特丹，而不只是工作本身。
It was Amsterdam as much as the job, I would say.
如果是游轮的话，我根本不会感兴趣。
If it had been a cruise ship, it would not have drawn interest for me at at all.
后来我经常被游轮吸引，但一直没真正下定决心去。
I was tempted by cruise ships often later in life, but never quite took the plunge.
后来。
Later.
我也做过一些。
And I've done some.
哦，天哪。
Oh, shoot.
好。
Good.
好。
Good.
大家晚安。
Good night, everybody.
还有……
And...
喜剧，喜剧……
Comedy comedy...
我是说，这里的即兴表演水平。
I mean, the improv quality here.
我停不下来，西蒙。
I can't turn it off, Simon.
但是……
But...
我认识很多，
I've known a lot of,
比如，特别搞笑的人，他们去游轮上工作，玩得很开心。
like, super funny people who did cruise ships and had a had a great old time.
但那时候我对这个不感兴趣，因为在游轮上工作听起来不像真实的生活。
But at that time, it wouldn't have interested me because being on a cruise ship doesn't sound doesn't sound like real life.
我是说，它确实是，但听起来不像。
I mean, it is, but but it doesn't sound like it.
但在另一个国家生活听起来才像真实的生活。
But but living in another country sounded like real life.
那样的生活会是什么样子呢？
What could that life be be like?
那是一个意外来到我面前的机会。
It was an unexpected opportunity that came my way.
我从来没想过这个。
It had never been in my thoughts.
它……
It...
你知道，从他们让我去试镜到我们被选上，中间大概只有五天时间。
You know, the amount of time between them asking me to to audition and then we getting cast was maybe five days.
他们坚持让我一个月内离开这个国家。
They insisted I leave the country within a month.
就是，他们特别着急让我们赶紧过去，我不得不处理一些事情，尤其是我的戏剧公司，我对他们感到特别内疚。
Like like, they they desperately needed us to get out there, and I had to, like, unentangle myself from some things, particularly my theater company, who I, you know, felt terribly guilty about.
我有点让他们措手不及，但我也快疯了。
I was pulling the rug out from from under them a little bit, but I was also going insane.
这就是这件事的第三个因素。
Like, that's the third element of this.
在个人心理和情感层面上，我无法抗拒逃离的诱惑。
It's like on a on a personal mental emotional level, I I I couldn't resist the pull of an escape.
我直到到了剧院，也就是Boom Chicago，才意识到这一点。
I didn't realize this until I got to the theater to Boom Chicago.
有多少现在在美国出名的人都曾在那里待过。
Just how many people who are now famous in America have gone through that space.
你能随便列举几个吗？
Can you just rattle off?
那阵容可真够厉害的。
It's quite a bag.
我是说，像塞斯·梅耶斯、乔什·梅耶斯、艾克·巴里霍尔茨、乔丹·皮尔，还有安珀·鲁芬。
I mean, average Seth Meyers and, Josh Meyers and Ike Baron Holtz and Jordan Peele and Amber Ruffin.
杰森·苏戴奇斯也待过一阵子。
Jason Sudeikis is there for a minute.
天哪。
Golly.
肯定还有更多。
There's there's definitely more.
还有一些人，可能现在没那么出名，但在即兴喜剧圈和喜剧圈里很受尊敬，懂行的人都知道他们。
And then there's some people who are, like, maybe not that famous yet, but, like, are much respected in in improv circles and comics circle people who know it.
艾莉森·西尔弗曼、坎贝尔的头儿、皮特·格罗斯。
Allison Silverman, head of Campbell, Pete Gross.
哦，还有科尔顿·邓恩。
Oh, Colton Dunn.
很多人都认识科尔顿·邓恩。
A lot of people know Colton Dunn.
我之所以提这个，是想让大家明白，不管他们在阿姆斯特丹建了什么、搞了什么，那都是实打实的东西。
The reason I wanted to say that is I wanted people to recognize that for whatever they're building, whatever they built in Amsterdam, it's like a real thing.
就像我们大多数人都知道第二城市剧团，也知道以前在《周六夜现场》剧场里表演的那些人一样，这其实是一个……
And just like most of us know Second City and being in the theater for Saturday Night Live and stuff like that back in the day that this was a...
这真的是美国娱乐产业的一个真正的输送渠道。
This is a real feeder for for The US entertainment industry.
但它
But it
当时并不是。
was not then.
那……
That...
完全不是，完全不是。
It was not it was not at all.
我1999年开始的时候，Pep Rosenfield是创始人之一。
When I started in '99, very, Pep Rosenfield is one of the founders.
他当时在给SNL写稿，那可是件大事。
He was writing for SNL, and that was a big deal.
然后他回到了……
Then he came back to...
因为他，你知道的，在Boom那边玩得更开心。
Because he, you know, was having a better time at Boom.
但到了2001年，Seth去了SNL，然后大家就觉得，因为如果你当时接了Boom的工作，尤其是那时候，你不会想着……
But then in 2001, Seth got SNL, and then it was like, Because if you're taking the Boom job, especially back then, you're not you're not thinking...
SNL是……
SNL is the...
你想着的是我玩得开心。
You're thinking I'm having fun.
我在磨练我的技艺。
I'm honing my craft.
我一边做着自己热爱的事，一边还能拿到钱。
I'm getting paid to do the thing that I love.
在阿姆斯特丹经历一段很酷的冒险。
I'm having a cool adventure in Amsterdam.
然后我再回来，专心发展我的事业。
Then I'll come back and focus on my career.
没错。
Exactly.
所以，所有这些人都做出了这个从客观上看并不明智的职业选择，但最终都得到了回报，这真的很棒，你知道，因为正是在那里你磨练了自己的本事。
And so to the fact that all these people took this objectively unwise career choice and it's ended up paying off for them all is is pretty fantastic, you know, because it is the thing where you get your chops up.
我们会有一些客座导演，其中有几次是来自第二城市的那些人，我在高中时就见过他们，你知道，我很崇拜他们。
We would have these guest directors and a couple times they were guys from Second City who I had seen, like, in high school years, you know, who I revered.
其中一位叫罗恩·韦斯特，
One of them was was a guy named, Ron West,
那个医生。
the doctor.
罗恩·韦斯特。
Ron West.
有一次，我们走在街上，我记得好像是女王节那天。
And he, one time, and we were walking, I think, on Queen's Day, actually.
我问他，Boom对我们来说是不是好事？
And I think I asked him, like, is Boom good for us?
就是说，它是不是……
Like, is it...
我们在这里是不是很傻？
Are we dumb for being here?
我记得那时候我大概已经待了三年了，两三年吧。
And I think I was in year three by that point, two or three.
他说了一句话，我永远都忘不了，他说这就像披头士在汉堡一样。
And he said something I've never forgotten, which is it's like the being the Beatles in Hamburg.
他的意思是，你不再演那些烂戏了。
And he just meant it in the sense of, like, you're not doing bad shows anymore.
就像你来到这里。
Like, you've come here.
你已经……
You've...
你在做所有的演出。
You're doing all the shows.
你离开这里后，就不会再做糟糕的演出了，这虽然不是百分之百准确，但基本上是真的。
You're gonna leave here, you're not gonna do bad shows anymore, which is not a 100% true, but it's but it's pretty true.
所以，
So what
他的意思是你在磨练你的技艺？
he means is you're honing your craft?
就像，我经常想到这个，现在我在我的另一个单人秀里也提到它。
Like, I've I've, like, thought about this a lot, and now I refer to it in my other solo show.
《你需要的行动》
The Movement You Need.
看，来到百老汇
Look coming to Broadway
可能是在2027年。
in in 2027, maybe.
你就能积累一万小时的经验。
You get your ten thousand hours.
你一直在演出。
You're performing constantly.
你面对的观众，大多数人的母语不是英语。
You are performing for people who, for the most part, have English as a second language.
所以你不能依赖任何现成的套路或者技巧。
So you cannot rely on any bag of reference tricks or whatever.
你只能专注于当下现场的情况，基本上就是这样。
You can only exist in, like, what is in the room at this moment, basically, which is Sure.
这真是一个很好的挑战。
Which a great little challenge.
而且，那些英语是第二语言的人，很可能还喝醉了。
But also, those people who have English as a second language are probably drunk.
所以你得更加努力才能让他们听进去，这就涉及到一些基本功，比如发音清晰。
So you have to work all the harder to get through to them, which becomes about, like, like, some basic stuff, like, articulation.
你懂吧？
You know?
还有，就是那种存在感，还有激情和动力。
But also, you know, presence and and and and passion and drive.
而且，这会让你的角色有点夸张，但你还是得想办法把演出撑起来。
And, you know, it ends up making your characters a little a little broad, but still, you're just trying to make that show happen.
但除此之外，这其实和披头士在汉堡的经历很像，就是你偶尔也会有休息日。
But then on top of that, and this is still, you know, analogous to to the Beatles in Hamburg is you you do occasionally have the night off.
休息日的时候，那就相当于阿姆斯特丹。
And when you have the night off, it is Amsterdam.
而这一切意味着，我们作为一个团队能一起释放多少压力，因为我们是一起演出的。
And, like, all of that entails, like, the amount of steam we were able to let off together as a group because, like, we're doing shows together.
通常一次有12个演员。
There's usually 12 cast members at a time.
每晚需要5个人。
Five are needed per night.
所以你会得到很多休息日。
So you get a lot of, like, you know, nights off.
但也会有大家一起休息的时候，我们会一起出去跳舞，那感觉太棒了。
But then you'd also have, like, collective nights off, and we'd all collectively go out dancing, and it was fantastic.
保罗·麦卡特尼，我听过他谈论在汉堡的演出，说那是史上最好的。
Paul McCartney, I've heard him talk about the shows in Hamburg as, like, the best ever.
他们当时表演了……
And they were doing...
他们连续表演了好几个小时。
They were performing for hours and hours and hours.
不是那种来了，演一个小时，然后回家的模式。
It wasn't like come in, perform for an hour, go home.
我是说，他们演六点场、八点场、十点场，还有凌晨一点场。
I mean, they're doing, the 06:00 show, the 08:00 show, the 10:00 show, the 01:00 show in the morning.
他讲起那段经历时，充满了深情和热爱。
And he talks about it with such fondness and love.
而且他们是用德语唱的。
And they're singing in German.
我是说，如果有人看过披头士在汉堡演出的老录像，那真是难以置信。
I mean, if if anybody's ever seen the old footage of the Beatles performing in Hamburg, it's absolutely incredible.
都是我们熟悉的歌，但用德语唱。
It's all the songs we know, but in German.
对。
Yep.
我记不清他具体说了什么，但他谈到了表演的纯粹性。
I can't remember specifically what he talked about, but he talked about the purity of the performing.
没错，对他们来说，在谢亚体育场面对那么多观众演出，确实很不可思议……
That, yes, it was incredible for them to be in Shea Stadium, performing to...
但他们……
But they...
他说，比如，你什么都听不见。
He he said, like, you couldn't hear anything.
就像，我们几乎听不到自己在唱什么。
Like, we could barely hear what we were singing.
别人更不可能听到任何声音。
There's no way anybody else could hear anything.
那是场面的壮观，但不是表演本身。
It was the spectacle of it, but it wasn't the performance.
他还说在汉堡演出时，作为表演者，那简直是纯粹的魔力。
And he's talked about Hamburg being as a performer, just like pure magic.
这就是做一件不考虑晋升或职业的事情的美妙之处，就像你只是……
It's part of what's great about doing something where you have no thought about advancement or career like you're It's just
享受这件事本身的乐趣。
the joy of the thing.
就是享受这件事本身的快乐。
It's just the joy of the thing.
是当下那一刻的快乐。
It's a joy of the moment.
是和当时那个观众之间的连接，除此之外什么都不存在。
It's connection with that audience at that time and nothing else exists.
而且奇怪的是，有时候不去想未来，反而能让你在未来表现得更好。
And oddly enough by not thinking about the future sometimes that's how you're better in the future.
我觉得这个想法现在的年轻人真的不太懂。
I think this idea is is really lost on on young people today.
而且这也不是他们的错。
And and it's not their fault.
现在压力太大了，要表现好，要成功。
There's so much pressure to perform to make it.
你有多少粉丝？
How many followers do you have?
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你知道吗，就是那种指标、指标、成就、成就、成就？
Do you do you know, like metric metric metric achieve achieve achieve?
我跟人聊过，我说，嘿，你上大学前为什么不休个间隔年呢？
I mean I've talked to people I'm like hey why don't you take a a gap year before you go to college?
你知道吗？
You know?
他们就说，不行，我绝对不能那样做。
And they're like no I I could never do that.
我就问，为什么不行？
I'm like why not?
他们说，我会落后的。
They're like I'll be behind.
我就说，落后什么呀？
I'm like behind what?
就是，所有东西都是比较出来的。
Like it's everything's comparative.
我最近刚跟一个人聊过，她想听听建议，你知道，她跟我说……
I just talked to somebody recently who wanted some advice, you know, she said to me...
她带着她的愿景来找我。
She came to me with her vision.
她说，我要开一个播客。
She's like, I'm starting a podcast.
我说，太好了。
I'm like, great.
你的目标是什么？
What's what's the goal?
她说，我想建立一个媒体帝国。
She's like, I want to have a media empire.
我说，行。
I'm like, okay.
我喜欢这个想法。
I love it.
有愿景真好。
Love a vision.
我就喜欢那种宏大的、不切实际的愿景。
I love an outsized unrealistic vision.
我们都有过这样的愿景，对吧。然后她就想知道，在她的播客里，她需要采取哪些步骤来实现她的媒体帝国。
We've all had them, you know, and then so she wants to know what steps she has to take in her podcast to serve her media empire.
当然，我完全知道该给什么建议。
And of course, mean, know exactly where the advice is going.
就是，为什么不先做好一个播客，别担心什么媒体帝国呢？
It's like, why don't you just start by making a good podcast and don't worry about the media empire?
我们聊了聊。
And we talked it through.
我觉得大家往往低估了职业生涯初期的那种快乐。
And I I think there's an under appreciation for the joy of the beginnings of our careers.
我在很多资深人士身上看到这一点，那些已经功成名就的人。
And I see it a lot in very senior people, people who've made it.
那个知道怎么打赢官司的律师，那个知道怎么谈成交易的投资者，那个知道怎么写剧本的编剧。
The lawyer who knows how to win the case, the investor who knows how to make a deal, the screenwriter who knows how to write a script.
我看很多这些已经功成名就的人，他们其实很无聊。
I look at a lot of these people who've made it and they're bored.
他们无聊是因为，虽然时不时会有挑战，但他们怀念的是刚开始的时候。
They're bored because, sure, there's challenges now and then, but what they miss was this, was the beginning.
他们怀念的是那种乐趣，虽然压力很大，但你充满野心和干劲。
What they miss was that was the fun, and it was stressful, and you're full of ambition and piss and vinegar.
你完全不知道未来会怎样。
You had no idea where it was going.
而且那感觉……
And it was...
这让我想起披头士在汉堡的日子。
It goes back to the Beatles in Hamburg.
那种纯粹的学习过程带来的快乐，真的太棒了。
It's the purity of what we were learning to do was so much fun.
而且当你擅长的时候，就没那么好玩了。
And and when you're good at it, it's just not as fun anymore.
这大概是因为你是在肾上腺素的作用下，真正把自己逼到了极限。
And that comes from, you know, perhaps the fact that you are working, you know, with the adrenaline, like, to the limit of your potential, really.
你知道，就像那种翻腾的感觉，你无所畏惧。
You know, it's like it's that churn of You have no fear.
把自己完全投入到某件事中。
Giving your full self to something.
因为没有别的选择。
Because there is nothing else.
对，这会给你回报。
And, yeah, it it rewards you.
说到间隔年，很快说一下，当人们来问我，比如，嘿，我该在芝加哥做间隔年吗？
On the topic of gap year real quick, when people would come to me here asking like, hey, should I do them in Chicago?
我就想，天哪。
I'm like, my God.
对，你应该去。
Yes, you should.
其实，别只去一年。
I mean, in fact, don't but don't just go for one year.
第一年你还在适应。
The first year you're adjusting.
去两年吧。
Go for two years.
第二年，你才能真正领悟。
The second year, That's when you get it.
那时候你才真正进入状态。
That's when you go.
他们就会说，天哪。
And they'd be like, oh, God.
但是，你知道，我在这儿的事业会耽误的。
But if, you know, I'm gonna lose progress in my in my career here.
有个人曾经跟我说过，我多希望我能记得是谁，但后来我跟很多人说过这句话：无论你离开哪里，等你回来的时候，一切还是老样子。
And someone had said this to me, I wish I can remember who, but I've I've said it to many people since then, wherever you're leaving, when you come back, it's gonna be the same.
跟你离开前一模一样，你什么都没错过。
It's gonna be the exact same that it was before, and you won't have missed anything.
而且那些属于你的机会，不管怎样都会是你的，躲都躲不掉。
And whatever opportunities are, you know, fated for you, they are they are fated regardless, you know.
如果你回来的时候，比现在表现得更出色，那你会有更多演出机会。
And if you just come back an even better performer than you are today, then you're gonna get more gigs.
我发现这确实是真的，每次我离开洛杉矶的时候，因为我……
And I found that to be true, you know, every time I left LA because I...
我经常离开，去阿姆斯特丹待一阵子。
Again, I would I would leave often to, you know, go to Amsterdam for a while.
而且每次回来，什么都没变。
And, nothing changed anytime.
这真是……
It's it's such...
这些观点真的很好，而且很细致。
These are these are such good and nuanced points.
就是我们害怕错过想象中的那个机会。
Which is we fear that we're gonna miss out on the thing that's in our imagination.
就好像，如果我不在洛杉矶，我就会错过那个还没发生的试镜，对。
It's like, well, if I'm not in LA, I'm gonna miss the audition that hasn't happened Yeah.
而且那个试镜可能根本不会发生。
And may or may not happen.
还有这种信念，觉得如果我留下来，所有的门都会打开，所有的试镜都会顺利。
And this belief that if I stay, all the doors will open and all the auditions will go my way.
但如果我离开，就会失去所有这些机会。
And if I leave, I'm gonna lose out on all those opportunities.
所以你要面对的是真实的机会，去阿姆斯特丹做实际的工作，而不是留在这里追逐想象。
And so you're looking at real opportunity, go and do this thing in Amsterdam that's real work versus stay here for your imagination.
而人们往往选择想象。
And people choose imagination.
这让我有点困惑。
I'm confused by that.
给那个观点一点宽容吧，因为想象力不就是一种计划吗，你知道，一个计划和愿景。
To offer offer that view some grace a little bit because what is imagination but a but a plan, you know, a plan and and a vision.
而且，我……
And, like, I I...
这就是我原本设想自己要做的。
This is what I saw that I was doing.
现在你却要我打开这部分，去做这个，然后再回来。
And now you're you're asking me to open up this part and go do this and come back.
因为我的计划是去芝加哥。
Because my plan was Chicago.
你知道，去做那些事，去表演，去即兴演出，而你打乱了我的计划。
You know, do the do the thing, do the shows, improv, and you've thrown my plan off.
因为我觉得，你知道，如果我……
Because I think, you know, if I...
你知道，回顾我走过的路，虽然最终结果不错，我也不会改变什么，但我知道有些地方我本可以做出更明智的选择。
You know, looking back at my path, which has worked out and, in the end, I wouldn't change anything, but I know where I could have made a couple smarter choices.
我觉得毫无疑问，我当时计划不够充分。
I I think inarguably did not have enough of a plan.
比如，在阿姆斯特丹那次随性之举给我带来了很大的个人收获，无论是作为一个人还是作为一个成年人，我觉得我在洛杉矶可能随性得太久了。
Like, after the spontaneity of Amsterdam, you know, had such great personal rewards for me, you know, just as a person and and and and as as a grown up, I think I kinda, like, stayed spontaneous a little too long in in LA.
所以我能看到有计划的价值，但我觉得关键是不能太死守计划，以至于错过机会。
So like, I can see the value of having a plan, but I guess it's like, don't don't be so locked into your plan that you don't recognize an opportunity.
这有点像，观点坚定但不过分执着。
It's kinda like it's kinda like strong opinions loosely held.
比如，有计划，但也要愿意偏离计划。
Like, have a plan, but be open to going off the plan.
这才是正道。
That's the way.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
但首先，我们想分享一个由SAP带来的真实广告。
But first, we want to share an ad with authenticity brought to you by SAP.
好奇心是一种实践，而不是一种性格特质。
Curiosity is a practice, not a personality trait.
这是我和大卫·罗宾逊坐下来交谈时学到的。
That's what I learned when I sat down with David Robinson.
从工程到创新，再到云ERP，再到他现在担任北美客户成功总裁的职位。
From engineering to innovation to cloud ERP to his current role as president of customer success in North America.
他每一次的跳跃都是被那种渴望学习新东西的冲动所驱动。
Every jump he made was driven by the itch, the desire to learn something new.
我一直以来都非常自然好奇。
I've always been very just naturally curious.
我不...
I don't...
我从未对此多想。
I never gave it much thought.
我很少拒绝，而且你知道，很多时候我可能学得特别快。
I rarely say no and you know in a lot of cases I might learn really fast.
有些事我再也不想做了。
It's not something I ever want to do again.
但其他情况下，那就像一段很棒的经历，我可以从中汲取，因为那段经历几乎就像一种货币。
But in other cases that's like a great experience I can draw upon because that experience then almost is like a currency.
你现在有了以前没有的谈资。
You now have something to talk about that you wouldn't have had otherwise.
你知道，每次工作评估，他们总说我不够专注。
You know, every work review I had, they always told me I was unfocused.
他们会跟我说，西蒙，样样通样样松。
Know, they would say to me things like, know, Simon, a jack of all trades is a master of none.
我最近才知道这只是半句话。
I recently learned that that's only half the quote.
完整的话是：样样通样样松，但多面手胜过专一者。
The full quote is a jack of all trades is a master of none, but a master of many is better than a master of one.
这就是完整的引语。
That's the full quote.
这就是完整的引语。
That's the full quote.
然后我意识到，我不是不专注。
And I realized I'm not unfocused.
我只是好奇。
I'm just curious.
我觉得很多人没有意识到好奇心的价值在于，它不一定要成功。
And I think what a lot of people don't appreciate of the value of curiosity is it doesn't have to succeed.
你只需要去尝试。
You just have to try.
尝试本身就是成功。
Trying is the success.
对，尝试本身就是成功。
And trying is the success.
尝试本身就是成功。
Trying is the success.
而且你
And you
没有好奇心就不可能有创新，因为如果一直按老办法做事，你就永远不会知道有没有更好的方法。
can't have innovation without curiosity because if this is the way we have always done it then you will never know if there is a better way.
我是说，我们得聊聊这个，因为你知道，第五季……
I mean, we have to talk about it because, you know, the fifth seasons...
是第五季。
It's fifth season.
第四季。
Fourth.
第四季。
Fourth season.
我在展望未来呢。
I'm projecting.
我有一个
I have
计划，是关于……
a plan for...
你的。
You.
这正是我想要的。
That's what I want.
哦，那太好了。
Oh, that could be great.
这正是我为你想要的。
That's what that's what I want for you.
但是《泰德·拉索》第四季现在已经播出了。
But the fourth season is here now of Ted Lasso.
这部剧有多少……
How much of, the show...
因为这部剧里有很多是你自己的热情所在，足球就是其中之一。
Because a lot of it is your own passions in that show, football being one.
这部剧是怎么来的？
Where did the show come from?
2013年，NBC邀请杰森参与他们的广告宣传活动，因为他们刚刚获得了英超联赛的转播权。
In 2013, NBC asks Jason to be part of their ad campaign because they've just gotten the rights for the English Premier League.
他说，行，如果我能带上我想带的任何人，我就做。
He said, All right, I'll do it if I can bring along anyone I want.
他们说，当然可以。
And they they said, Yeah, of course.
于是他就拉上了我和乔·凯利。
And so he grabs me and Joe Kelly.
我们三个都是美国人，都是体育迷，去了阿姆斯特丹，之前对足球完全不在乎，现在多少有点喜欢了。
All three of us are Americans who are sports fans who went to Amsterdam and having not given a crap about soccer before, like, into it to some degree.
因为我在阿姆斯特丹待了五年，而且我对新爱好很容易上瘾，所以我变成了一个狂热分子。
Now because I was in Amsterdam for five years and because I can get really attached to a new hobby, I became a zealot.
我把自己给过度教育了。
I overeducated myself.
我会看那些没什么意义的比赛，因为
I would watch, like, really meaningless games because
好多橙色的衣服。
Lots of orange clothing.
好多橙色的衣服。
Lots of orange clothing.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我的衣柜看起来就像个交通锥工厂。
My closet looks like a fucking traffic cone factory.
我们和那家广告公司开了个会，他们大概有三张纸，上面写着，我们觉得应该是个大学橄榄球教练，他可以做这个，或者做那个，或者做那个。
We had a meeting with this ad company, and they had, like, three sort of just sheets of paper of, we think it's it should be a college football coach, and, he could be doing this thing or he could be doing this thing or he could be doing this thing.
然后这边这个是他当英超球队的教练，尽管他对足球一窍不通。
And this thing over here was he's he's the coach of a Premier League team, even though he knows nothing about soccer.
然后杰森就说，行，那咱们就选这个吧。
And Jason's like, yeah, Okay, let's let's pick that.
好的。
All right.
谢谢。
Thank you.
然后有一天，我和他还有乔就坐在泳池边，想了一些点子。
And then him and me and Joe just sat by the pool one day and, like, thought of bits.
然后杰森就说，他的名字叫拉索。
And Jason's like, think his name is Lasso.
泰德·拉索。
Ted Lasso.
太好了。
Great.
因为杰森喜欢用名词做姓氏，你懂的。
Because Jason likes, you know, nouns his last names.
你知道吗，我接下这份工作主要是因为我想，哇，我们能去英国三天。
You know, largely just took the job because I was like, wow, we get to go to England for three days.
去英国拍完这个，然后回来。
Go to England, shoot this thing, come back.
而且，你知道，从规模上来说，我觉得这甚至不算电视广告。
And it's, you know, on the scale of what it was because I don't think it was even a broadcast commercial.
它只在YouTube上播出。
It was only on YouTube.
但那是为了……
But it was for the...
英国观众吗？
An English audience?
那是给美国观众看的，但也知道可能会有英国观众在看。
It was for an American audience, but aware that an English audience might be watching.
明白了。
Got it.
基本上，我们就是……
Basically, like, we were...
因为你……
Because you...
因为那……
Because it...
你……
You...
因为夸大了美国的那种“耶”的感觉。
Because of exaggerated the American Yeah.
刻板印象。
Stereotypes.
我们当时是想表现得，你知道……
We were we were trying to be, you know...
一切都得靠口音和外表来体现……
Everything would be accentual looks....
英国人眼中的美国人形象。
English view of what Americans are.
就是那种感觉……
Exactly what it feels....
希望美国人看了会觉得好玩。
Hopes that Americans would get a kick on that.
所以他们第二年又让我们回来拍了一个。
So they had us come back and do another one the next year.
对，第一个其实就是个小品。
And, yeah, the first one, you know, was just a sketch.
那个角色很夸张。
It was a loud character.
我们靠那个角色撑了六分钟，也就只能撑这么多了。
Like, we got six minutes out of that character, and that's all we we could have gotten.
但第二次我们找到了特德·拉索，带着一种失落感，好像他失去了那份工作。
But the second time we found Ted Lasso in like a with a sense of like loss, like he didn't have this job anymore.
而且现在他真的爱上了英格兰。
And now he really loved England.
而且现在他还在执教女队，他对她们的需求什么的特别上心，就这样给这个角色打开了一扇新的大门，比我们预想的要深刻得多。
And also now he's coaching the girls team, and he's like really sensitive to like to their needs and stuff and just kind of opened this new window to the character in a bigger way than we thought.
在那之后，杰森，你知道的，把我和乔召集起来，说这里头还有更多的东西。
And after that, Jason, you know, gathers me and Joe's like, there's something else here.
不知道是什么。
Don't know what it is.
可能是更多的广告，可能是电影，也可能是电视剧。
It's more commercials, if it's a movie, if it's a if it's a TV show.
所以我们规划了一季，六集，再六集。
So we map out a season, six episodes and six episodes.
我的意思是，其实最初只有前六集，但后来我们又想象了另外六集，还有一个特别篇，这正好就是《英国办公室》的模式。
I mean, really just the first six, but then we were then imagining six more and then like a special, which is the exact model of The UK office.
我们写了一个试播集，然后它就在那儿搁了很久很久。
We wrote a pilot, and it sat there for a very long time.
现在再往前说一点，Jason 让我们加入的原因之一是，你知道，我们是体育迷，会聊体育，然后慢慢聊到足球。
Now now going back a little further, part of why Jason wanted us in there is because, you know, we're sports guys who would talk about sports and then eventually about soccer.
但还有一点很特别，等 Jason 到阿姆斯特丹的时候，我已经对足球研究得很深了，而且我决定自己要当所有美国人的足球传教士。
But also very specifically, by the time Jason got to Amsterdam, I was already in the weeds soccer wise, and I had decided I was a soccer missionary for all Americans.
所以我会用美国体育术语给他解释足球的东西，比如，因为他买了一台 PlayStation 和 FIFA 放在休息室，里面有一堆球队。
And so I would be explaining soccer stuff to him through American sports terms, like, because he bought a he bought a PlayStation and FIFA for the green room, and had a class of teams on it.
然后我说，好的，72 届。
And I'm like, okay, seventy two IX.
那就像 Showtime 时代的湖人队。
That's like the Showtime Lakers.
还有这个叫约翰·克鲁伊夫的家伙，他就像魔术师约翰逊。
And and this Johan Cruft guy, he's like, Magic Johnson.
他说，好的，明白了。
He's like, okay, got it.
这种我用美国例子来解释足球概念的方式，对。
And that paradigm of me using American examples to explain, you know, soccer things Mhmm.
直到今天，这仍然是拉索和比尔德关系的基础，这也是阿姆斯特丹那趟经历带来的另一个奇妙之处。你知道吗，我那时候看了那么多足球比赛，比如周日三点看利兹联对伯恩利，当时觉得真是浪费时间，对吧？
Remains the basis for the for the Lasso Beard relationship still, to this day, which is just another weird part of the whole payoff of Amsterdam, you know, because surely me watching all these soccer games, you know, me watching fucking Leeds versus Burnley, you know, at three on a Sunday was a waste of time, wasn't it?
但实际上，你是在浪费生命。
But in fact, you're wasting your life.
但实际上，我脑子里那本足球百科全书里积累的这些小知识，现在都得到了巨大的回报。
But in fact, all these little, you know, data entries in the soccer encyclopedia in my brain have paid off, enormously.
但这正好回到了我们一开始聊的那个话题，就是所有事情都是相互关联的。
But this goes right back to the thing we were talking about at the beginning, which is everything contributes to everything.
谁能想到，当初那么投入地看荷兰足球，花了无数个小时，后来竟然会变成这两个在美国电视上深受喜爱的角色之间的关系呢？
Who's to know that the going deep and, you know, wasting countless hours, you know, watching Dutch football would then become the relationship between these two characters that have become beloved on American television?
这就是我热爱的地方。
I mean, this is what I love.
这又回到了……
This is goes in...
回到了我们之前说的，你爱上的是想象中的愿景，但我们忘了，所有这一切都汇聚成了最终的结果。
Goes back to what we're saying before, which is, you know, you fall in love with the vision of the imagination, but what we forget is, like, all of it contributes to everything.
你说过，你去磨练技艺，回来之后变得更好了。
You said, like, you go, you hone your craft, you come back, you're better.
我们生活中的每件事在将来都有某种意义，但谁知道会是什么呢？
Everything in our lives has some sort of purpose later on, but who's to know what it will be?
如果没有这些随性的奇怪决定，这一切都不会存在。
And without these weird decisions of spontaneity, none of this would exist.
我对这个有点着迷……
I'm sort of fascinated by the...
我不知道这是什么。
I don't know what it is.
我们讨论的是计划之外的事情。
Like, what we're talking about is things that are off the plan.
我觉得我们太执着于计划了。
And I think we're sort of too obsessed with plans.
你一路走来的故事就是，从小就知道自己想当演员，喜欢舞台上的那种刺激，还有观众带来的那种兴奋感。
Your whole story leading up to this was like, I knew from a little kid I wanted to be an actor and the adrenaline of the stage, you know, and the adrenaline of the audience.
然后你发现自己能写，能表达所有这些创造力。
And then you realize you could write and you can express all this creativity.
去阿姆斯特丹这件事有两层意思：一是能做我喜欢做的事。
And the Amsterdam thing was two things, which was I get to do the thing that I love to do.
对。
Check.
二是能逃离我不想做的事。
And I get to run away from shit that I don't wanna do.
对。
Check.
而且这里面有种魔力，就是这些决定不一定是什么好的职业选择，当职业顾问或者父母坐下来跟你谈的时候。
And there's this kind of magic, which is they're not necessarily good, quote, unquote, career decisions when the career coach or the, you know, parent is sitting down with you.
比如，这是我的目标。
Like, this is my this is my goal.
我要去阿姆斯特丹做英语喜剧，把问题都留在这里，去开始新生活，管他呢。
I'm gonna I'm gonna do English comedy in Amsterdam, and I'm gonna leave all my problems here and just go start a new life and screw it.
而且，没人会看着你说，我觉得你全都想明白了，伙计。
And, like, nobody's looking at you going, I think I think you got this one all figured out, bud.
每个人都会看...
Everybody's look...
每个人都会看着你说，你在说什么呢？
Everybody's gonna be looking at like, what are you talking about?
我觉得我现在的想法是，这也是我为什么有点享受这个，就是谁知道呢？
And I think where I'm arriving, and this is why I'm sort of enjoying this, which is who knows?
你知道，如果你留下来，谁知道会发生什么？
You know, who knows what would have happened if you stayed?
谁知道什么...
Who knows what...
你知道，谁知道呢？
You know, who knows?
你懂吗？
You know?
我经常想起这件事，然后……
And I think about that often and, like...
因为另一面也是，如果一旦我离开了阿姆斯特丹，我是不是应该直接回芝加哥，然后试着去……
Because the flip side of it is also, like, if if once I left Amsterdam, shouldn't I have just gone back to Chicago and gotten, you know, try to get
上第二城市那个培训班？
on the second city train?
然后去……
And get to...
对，没错。
Exactly.
去经历那些……
Go through the...
而且，你知道吗，也许即使我去了，那时候我可能太紧张了，会得罪人，或者，你知道，也许我还没到那个能充分利用那个机会的成熟度。
Also, like, you know, maybe even if I did it, maybe I I was too high strung then and I would have pissed people off or, you know, like, maybe I wasn't the person yet who would have been able to make the most of of that opportunity.
这就是混沌理论，事情可能有很多不同的走向。是的。
The chaos theory of it of, like, the different ways that things could have gone Yeah.
不管好坏，你完全可以为此彻夜难眠。
Better or worse, you know, you can lose sleep over that completely.
但是，是的，有时候顺其自然
But, yeah, sometimes just going with the flow
就是对的。
is is right.
在这个充满戏剧性和冲突的时代，你知道，那个英国烘焙大赛，Bake Off。
In a time where drama and and conflict is the thing, you know, the the great British baking show, the Bake Off.
我觉得那可能是电视史上最棒的节目之一。
I think it's probably some of the finest television that was ever made in the history of television.
不是...
Not...
我这是在跟一个...
I'm saying this to somebody who who...
不。
No.
我们知道自己的位置。
We know our place.
好的。
Okay.
刚才只是……
Was just...
《泰德·拉索》紧随其后。
Ted Lasso's up.
答应过你，它排第二。
Promised you a close second.
谢谢。
Thank you.
原因是，这是一场比赛。
The reason is is because it's a competition.
有赢家。
There are winners.
也有输家。
There are losers.
每周都有人被淘汰出局，但他们还是互相帮助。
Somebody gets voted off the island every week, and yet they help each other.
我觉得这对我来说就是生活的隐喻，那就是要全力竞争。
And I think that is for me the metaphor for life, which is absolutely compete.
当然要努力工作提升自己，同时也要在过程中互相帮助。
Absolutely work hard to advance yourself and help each other along the way.
对我来说，这就是生活的隐喻，也是职业生涯的隐喻。
That to me is the metaphor for life and the metaphor for career.
我们都爱上《泰德·拉索》这部剧的原因，就是它讲的是乐观。
And the thing that I think we all fell in love with the Ted Lasso show, which is it's a show about optimism.
它讲的是积极向上。
It's a show about positivity.
它讲的是互相关心，这和……很不一样。
It's a show about taking care of each other, which is quite different than what...
尤其是美国电视，你知道，真人秀节目通过剪辑把人们显得很坏，为了娱乐观众制造人为的冲突。
Especially American television, you know, reality TV show where they make people seem evil in the editing, and they create artificial conflict for our entertainment.
而有一部非常积极、没有那些人为冲突的剧，是很欧洲的做法，而制造冲突则是很美国的方式。
And it's a very European thing to have a show that's quite positive without all the artificial conflict, which is very American thing to, you know, instigate.
我也不知道。
And I don't know.
是因为你们三个人都有欧洲的经历吗？
Was that because the three of you had European experience?
还是因为你们在自己的生活中感到沮丧？
Is it because you were frustrating in your own lives?
比如，那种对乐观主义的加倍坚持，这种非常非美国的拍剧方式，是从哪里来的？
Like, where did that doubling down on optimism, which is very un American way to make a TV show?
那是从哪里来的？
Where was that?
因为我们对此很感激。
Because we're grateful for it.
好的，谢谢。
Well, thank you.
对我来说，这个想法的核心是——你知道，我的核心可能比乔的小，肯定比杰森的小——但当时我们想做这个节目，在广告之后，我们把它做成一个更大的项目，我们要在美国和欧洲的背景下做这个节目。
The kernel of it for for me and, you know, my kernel is is, you know, probably smaller than Joe's and definitely smaller than Jason's, but was, you know, if we're gonna have this show, you know, at the time, like, we, you know, after the commercials and we're making it a larger project, we're gonna have this show in this American, in this European world.
他怎么能脱颖而出呢？
How is he gonna stand out?
你知道，欧洲人觉得美国人最烦人的就是他们那种兴高采烈的劲儿。
You know, there's nothing Europeans find more annoying about Americans than their chipperness.
比如那个“相信”的牌子就是个例子。
Like the BELIEVE sign is is a is an example.
那个“相信”的牌子其实是提炼出来的，原本的想法是泰德会挂上一千个那种公司式的、加油打气的标语。
The BELIEVE sign is a distillation of what was going to be a larger idea of Ted putting up like a thousand like corporate, you know, keep at it type slogan.
“坚持住，喵。”
Hang in there, meow.
对，没错。
Like Right.
就像那些所有的。
Like, all those.
而且这会让像罗伊·基恩那样的足球运动员非常恼火。
And just how much that would infuriate, you know, a a footballer like Roy Keane.
然后这想法就慢慢简化成了，好吧。
And, you know, that just kinda just got distilled down like, okay.
不过，也不是所有英国人都爱抱怨。
Well, you know, it's not like all English people are grumps.
我们不是那个意思，但他们确实没那么开朗……
We're not saying that necessarily, but they, they're not as cheery as...
但有一种坚忍的态度，你知道，他们……
But there's a stiff upper lip thing, you know, they they
他们比地球上任何人都能忍受糟糕的情况。
they put up with shit better than anybody on the planet.
然后不经意间，这其实才是这部剧真正的文化冲突所在，而不仅仅是他过马路时不知道该看哪边——那种美国特质才是自然融入其中的一部分，就像这种中西部的那种，你懂吗？
And sort of accidentally, that that is really where the the culture clash of the show is more than, like, he doesn't know, you know, what side of the street to look at when he when he crosses the street is that that was the American quality that was sort of then organically the part of it like this, just this Midwestern this, you know?
而这种中西部特质，在一个根本不需要它的竞争世界里，
And this Midwesternness in a in a competitive world that wants no part of
对，完全不需要。
it Yeah.
完全不需要，对。
Whatsoever Yeah.
直到它需要的时候。
Until it does.
我们公司有一次团建，给整个团队和公司都做了性格测试，然后他们评估，比如说，我们的人员性格搭配是否合理，能不能组成一个好的团队，诸如此类的。
We had a company off-site, and we did all these personality profiles of the entire team and the entire company, and they evaluated, like, you know, do we have the right mix of the right personalities to make a good team and all of this stuff?
最后，那个，他们叫什么来着？
And at the end, the the, what do they call them?
评估师……
The evaluator...
组织者。
The administrators.
那些主持人。
The ministers.
没错。
Exactly.
他们说，嗯，我……
They said, well, I...
我们有个坏消息。
We've got some bad news.
比如，如果你的公司是一个人的话，你就是泰德·拉索。
Like, if your company were a personality, you'd be Ted Lasso.
我们当时都觉得，这太棒了。
And we were all like, that's awesome.
这太棒了。
That is awesome.
我们整个公司就被定性为泰德·拉索。
And we were diagnosed as Ted Lasso as a company.
为什么是坏消息？
Why was it bad news?
因为，因为我们不够，你懂的，就是那种感觉。
Because because we didn't have enough, like, you know?
就是，我们不够那种背后捅刀子的劲儿，你明白吧？
Like, we didn't have enough backstabby, you know?
就是，我们在攻击性、狠劲儿、那种咄咄逼人的方面得分很低，你懂吗？
Like, we we we scored very poorly on, like, aggression cut throat cut throaty, You know?
而且我得说，作为公司的老板，我真的很自豪。
And and I gotta say as as the owner of the business, I was really proud.
你知道吗？
You know?
因为，你知道，我们公司就叫“该死的乐观公司”。
Because, you know, we're called the Damn Optimism Company.
不是说“该死”这个词本身有什么，但要是真有的话，那就太搞笑了。
Not that damn isn't in the word, but that would be hilarious.
我要把名字改成‘该死的乐观公司’。
I'm changing the name to the damn optimism company.
哦，那文书工作可够麻烦的。
Oh, The paperwork is gonna be ridiculous.
我可以做个……
I can do an...
你可以做个D B……
You can do a d b...
一个D B A。
A d b a.
好的。
Okay.
行吧。
Fine.
但我们的名字是‘乐观公司’。
But we're called the optimism company.
被说像泰德·拉索，我觉得是我在文化上取得的最大胜利之一。
To be diagnosed as Ted Lasso was one of the greatest victories I think I've I've achieved culturally.
我对演员很好奇。
I'm curious for actors.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们会爱上你演的角色，有时候那是你本人，但很多时候并不是。
We fall in love with the characters you play that is sometimes the person, but sometimes way not the person.
对你来说，确保角色和你完全不同有多重要？你是想演一个完全不一样的人吗？
How important was it for you to make sure that like, did you wanna play somebody completely different to you?
还是想把自己融入进去？
Did you wanna bring yourself into it?
你是编剧之一。
You're you're one of the writers.
你想怎么演就怎么演。
You can do whatever the hell you want.
作为编剧和演员，我特别好奇，这两者之间的重叠在哪里？
I'm so curious as a writer and as a performer, where is the overlap?
因为我认识的演员比你多得多，他们并不是他们扮演的角色。
Because, I mean, you know way more actors than I do, and they are not the characters they play.
但我们却把他们当作那个角色来对待。
And yet we treat them as the character.
那个在《权力的游戏》里演乔佛里的家伙是谁来着？
Who is the guy the guy who played Joffrey on on Game of Thrones?
我觉得他退出了
I think he got out of
演艺圈，因为人们一直对他很刻薄，以为他就是个混蛋。
the game because people would just mean to him the whole time because they thought he was an asshole.
他只是在演一个角色。
He's playing a character.
他现在又回归演艺圈了。
He's back in in the business now.
然后……
And...
但他确实……他确实
But he took a he took
对，是的。
a Yeah.
很长一段时间……
A long...
他说过那不完全是真的。
He has said that that is that is not entirely true.
好的。
Okay.
他不是那么说的。
He's not saying that.
他真的是去上学了，他想专心学习。
He really legitimately just was going to school and he wanted to go to school and focus on that.
但这也是事实。
But also true.
但人们当时……
But people were......
不是那样的。
Not like that.
人们并没有……
People didn't...
而且人们不喜欢他。
And people didn't like him.
具体来说。
Specifically.
你知道，他们喜欢……
You know, they like...
那有……
That had...
冲他大喊大叫，当他……
Yelling at him when he's
走在街上的时候，那可怜的孩子。
walking down the street, the poor kid.
这就是我的观点。
And that's my point.
就是说，我们常常把演员演的角色和演员本人搞混了。
Like, we confuse the characters you play with who you are.
我特别好奇……
I'm so curious as to...
这是好事吗？
Is that a good thing?
是不是因为……
Is it about...
比如说，Coach Beard 这个角色有多少是你自己的影子，你演这个角色是因为你想演吗？
Like, how much of you is Coach Beard and that you did that because you wanted that?
还是说你只是想演一个跟你完全不像的角色，纯粹为了好玩？
Or did you just wanna play somebody just for fun that's nothing like you?
就像那些喜欢演坏人的人。
Like, people who like playing bad guys.
从外表看，他跟我确实不太像，你知道的，他话不多，而且很乐意坐在那儿等着。
He's, on the outside, not like me in that, you know, he doesn't talk much, and he's happy to sit and wait.
我话特别多，而且我总想着，你知道的，想去做点什么。
I am a bladder mouth, and, and I tend to, like, you know, like, wanna go do something.
但他跟我很像的一点是，你知道，我……
But he is very much like me in that, you know, I've...
他走到今天这一步，走了一条非典型的路。
He's had a atypical path to his current...
他的职业生涯是这样，我也是。
Knowing his career, and so have I.
所以我们基本上就是把这个特点放大，然后发挥到极致。
And so we sort of taken that and exploded it, basically.
你知道，我肯定没参加过伐木比赛，也没赢过国际象棋比赛。
You know, I certainly haven't been in a lumberjack competition nor have I won a chess competition.
但这就是那种“写你知道的东西”的做法，对吧？
But this kind of, like, write what you know kind of thing?
在一定程度上，杰森身上也有点泰德·拉索的影子，或者反过来。
To a degree, there's a little bit of of Jason in Ted Lasso as well or vice versa.
我觉得是两者之一吧。
I guess one of the two.
我们之前聊到的那个动态——我用美国式的闪卡方式来解释足球——其实就是我们俩的真实写照。
That dynamic we discussed earlier of of me, you know, explaining soccer in American flashcard terms, is really us.
所以自然而然，比尔德这个角色就有点像我了。
So it just followed that then, you know, Beard's Beard's just a little bit like me.
而“进化”这个角色的发展，也是另一条挺随机的路。
And the Evolution's character has been kind of another, like, random path.
比如，我们最初写第一个广告的时候，我本来设想自己会有很多话要说。
Like, when we were first writing the first commercial, I had pictured it that, like, I was going to have a bunch of, you know, stuff to say.
我是说，他来回走动的时候。
I mean, as he's back and forth.
然后乔·凯利，他是个天才，乔·凯利说，兄弟，坏消息。
And Joe Kelly, who is a genius, Joe Kelly was like, Bad news, man.
你不该那样说话，什么意思？
You shouldn't talk like what?
对，就是你。
Yeah, you.
但我是个演员。
But I'm an actor.
我是说，他会负责所有的讲话和演讲，还有那个掌控全场的教练。
I mean, he's going to be doing like all the talking and speechifying and the coach who runs the room.
你需要成为那种精准切入的人，就像，你知道，一句话就能击中要害。
You need to be the guy who comes in surgically with with just, like, you know, the word that that hits.
就像，哦，那完全正确。
Like, oh, that's that's a 100% right.
而且这也和乔西·奥莱利在Boom经常说的一个观点很吻合，就是进入一个场景之前，先观察一下，问问这个场景需要什么。
And that also dovetails with something that Josie O'Reilly would talk a lot about at Boom is like watching a scene before you enter that scene, ask what does it need?
所以比尔德就是那种‘需要什么就做什么’的体现。
And so Beard is like in the manifestation of what does it need.
他就是等着。
He just he just waits.
比如现在，泰德需要我学会《stalker》的规则。
Like right now, Ted needs me to learn the rules of stalker.
明白了。
Got that.
然后现在，需要什么呢？
And like now, what does it need?
就是我得去跟那个叫内特的家伙谈谈，你知道吗？
Is I gotta go talk to this Nate guy, you know?
而且这种无私的精神真的很棒，我觉得挺有意思的。
And there's a there's a wonderful, like, selflessness to that that I think is pretty fun.
但他之所以叫比尔德，是因为他在第一支广告里没有名字。
But he's only named Beard because he didn't have a name in the first commercial.
你知道，他从来没被提到过。
You know, he's never referred to.
第二支广告里他被提到了，然后大家就说，他叫什么名字好呢？
Second commercial, he's referred to and like, what's his name be?
而且我们就是喜欢名词。
And again, we love nouns.
所以就叫他比尔德教练。
So it's Coach Beard.
但那只是因为我拍第一支广告时留了胡子，而我留胡子是因为当时正好在演一部自己写的戏，演一个流浪汉。
But that's only because I had a beard in the first one, and I only had that beard because I happened to be doing a play that I had written where I played a homeless person.
那是我人生中第一次留胡子。
And first time in my life I'd ever have a beard.
而因为我写了那部戏，现在我再也剃不了胡子了。
And because I happen to write that play, now I can never shave again.
所以
So
那是个临时名字。
it was a placeholder.
胡子就是，他有胡子，就叫他胡子。
The beard was like, he's got a beard, call him beard.
那是临时起的吗？
Was it a placeholder?
与其说是临时名字，不如说是灵感。
It wasn't a placeholder so much as it as it was like inspiration.
就像，你知道，其实无所谓。
It was like, you know, it it it was like, it doesn't really matter.
你看那个东西。
The, you know, look at the thing.
胡子。
Beard.
胡子不错。
Nice beard.
他就是胡子。
He's beard.
太好了。
Great.
他就是胡子。
He's beard.
我们当时根本没想到还会再拍一个广告，更别说拍一整部电视剧了。
We didn't know we were we were gonna do even another commercial more than, you know, certainly not a whole TV series by this point.
所以，当时完全没觉得这个角色会一直延续下去。
So, there was no sense that it would it would stick.
至于更大的问题，比如，对我来说，在这个动态中，一个角色能不能……
In terms of the larger question of, like, is it important to me for, you know, a character in this dynamic of like being able to
因为你可以随便写你想写的东西。
because you get to be, you get you get to write whatever you want.
再说，我上大学那会儿，到处都是《荒原狼》的语录，还有一句约翰·马尔科维奇的话。
Again, when I was in college, we were awash in Steppenwolf quotes, and there was a John Malkovich quote.
大二那年我们听到的，就是表演不是要变成你不是的那个人。
And we're hearing sophomore year, which was acting is not about trying to become someone you aren't.
而是要成为你本来的那个人，我当时，尤其大二的时候，就想，哇。
It's about being someone you are, which I, you know, as a sophomore, especially, I was like, woah.
但其实说白了，就是把自己带进角色里。
But that's really just, you know, bring yourself to the character.
比如，我在这个处境下会是什么样的人？
Like, how who would I be in this position?
我的脸不是对称的。
I don't don't have a symmetrical face.
所以大多数电视剧里我不会是主角，用选角经纪人的客气话来说，就是我很有特点。
Like, I'm not gonna be a lead on most TV shows, which means in polite casting agent terms, I am specific.
所以我得演很多古怪的角色。
So I'm gonna be playing a lot of eccentric characters.
果然，你去看看我的IMDb页面，上面写着……
And, like, sure enough, you go to my IMDb, it's...
上面真的会写：邪恶小丑、变态杀人狂、搭便车的杀手，你懂的。
It'll literally say evil clown, sex murderer, pitch hiker, you know.
所以，既然我能演这些有点偏离常规的角色，那把自己代入进去就稍微容易一些。
And so, since I get to play all these sort of, you know, off center people, it's a little easier then to to bring myself to it.
你知道，这不像演哈姆雷特。
You know, it's not like you're Hamlet.
你是哈姆雷特，你是王子，你爸死了。
You're Hamlet, you were prince, and your your dad died.
开始演吧。
Go.
我在想，我和这个角色有什么不同，然后去演绎那种不同，但同时，在我内心深处，
You know, I'm trying to find, like, what's different about, you know, me from this character and, like, inhabit that, but also, you know, on my secret insides.
多少还是有点像我的，不管怎样。
A little bit like me one way or another.
至于Beard，我们就能把这个延伸一下，比如，好，他在伊利诺伊州中部上的大学，所以他来自伊利诺伊州中部。
And with Beard, we've just been able to extend that to, like, okay, went to college in Central Illinois, so he's from Central Illinois.
我去过欧洲一段时间，事情变得有点疯狂。
I went to Europe for a while, and things got a little nuts.
我们可能还没完全做到这一点，对于Boom来说。
And we haven't maybe quite gotten to that with Boom.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我们对Beard已经做到了，因为现在我们知道他会说荷兰语。
We have with Beard because now we know that he knows Dutch.
而且如果你在阿姆斯特丹把他放到晚上，他最后会穿上大卫·鲍伊的服装。
And and if you put him in Amsterdam by the end of the night, he's gonna have a David Bowie costume.
顺便说一句，干得漂亮。
Well played, by the way.
谢谢。
Thank you.
那一集，真是精彩。
That episode was, well played.
我最喜欢了。
My favorite.
所以，对，那其实不是选择或偏好。
So, yeah, it wasn't really a choice or a preference.
那没什么，只是事情就是这样发展的。
That that is nothing that's just the way the way it worked out.
但我觉得我的直觉，甚至无意识的，你知道，如果我以后为自己写角色，我还是会把我自己的……
But I I think my instinct, even unconsciously, you know, if I was to write characters for myself going forward, I I would still be including my...
很多自己写进去。
A fair amount of myself in them.
我……
I...
我对……非常着迷。
I'm so fascinated by...
我不是一个表演者。
I'm not a performer.
我从来没演过戏。
I've never acted.
虽然有些人会争辩说，因为我站在舞台上，所以我就是个表演者。
Although some would argue because I stand on stage I'm a performer
你天生就是这块料，宝贝。
You're a natural baby
我对表演艺术很着迷，也对那种把自己融入角色的想法很感兴趣。你知道，我觉得演戏很难的一点是，当你已经知道接下来会发生什么的时候，你怎么去演好一个角色？比如有人要破门而入给你惊喜，你明明知道，却要装作不知道。这个概念对我来说简直不可思议。而且很少有人能演得好，因为他们心里清楚，就忍不住会混淆。
I'm fascinated by the art of acting and the idea of bringing yourself and you know some of the things that I find very difficult about acting which is how do you play a part when you know everything that's gonna happen you know it's like somebody's about to burst in the door and surprise you you know that but you have to pretend that you didn't like that concept is mind blowing to me and it's amazing how few people are good at it because they know, you know, and they can't help confuse it.
我还特别着迷于，你在角色里哪些地方要融入自己，哪些地方不要。
And I'm I'm fascinated by the, like, where you want yourself in it and where you don't.
作为一个演员，你在哪里放手，那条界限在哪里？
Where's the line where you sort of let go as an actor?
哦，好吧。
Oh, well.
这是不是……
Does does that...
我是……
I'm...
我觉得，演员不能真的说“我绝不会做那种事”，不管你对这个角色有多了解。你最好在说这话之前三思，因为也许你平时不会那么做，但有些情况会把你逼到不得不那么做的境地。
The notion of I would never do that is one that I think, like, an actor can't really let them have even no matter how well you know this character, even like you better think twice before you say that because, like, you might not normally do that, but here are circumstances that are putting you in a position where you have to do that.
你知道，不管是什么事。
You know, whatever whatever it is.
甚至是可怕的事。
Something horrible even.
没错。
Exactly.
你的底线在哪里？
Where is your line?
就是说，你的底线在哪里，才会让你走到这一步，去做你平时不会做的事，因为这个人的底线在这里。
Like, where is your line that would get you to this point where you would do this thing that you would ordinarily do because this person's line is here.
所以你得自己找到那个界限。
So find that border for your for yourself.
我觉得作为演员，我在这方面会很挣扎，因为我很难把自己和角色分开。
I think that's where I would struggle as an actor because I struggle to disconnect myself from the character.
就像，你知道，一个角色会做一些可怕、暴力或不道德的事情，我就会想，但我绝不会那样，你知道吗？
It was like like, you know, a character that would, you know, do something horrible, violent or immoral, I was like, but I would never, you know?
我，我无法想象自己会做这种事。
I I could I can't imagine doing this.
然后我又说，也许我能演一个做那种事的角色。
Then I say, guess I could play a character doing that.
你就会想，不。
You're like, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
你得找到你真正会那么做的情境，才能把这个角色演好。
You have to find the circumstance that you would actually do that to play this effectively.
这就是我非常敬佩你的地方，你愿意让自己的思维去一些相当黑暗的地方，找到动力去把这些角色演好。
And that's what I have such respect for, that you're willing to let your mind go to some pretty dark places to find the motivation to play these characters effectively.
我想这就是演技吧。
I guess that's the craft.
而且，你知道，杰森也经常提到这一点，但就像，我们非常幸运，能演这些超级讨喜的角色。
And and also, you know, and Jason talks about this a lot too, but, like, we're very we're very fortunate that we are having this, you know, big ride on characters who are super nice, you know.
说得对。
Fair point.
比如，我不会因为演乔佛里国王而在机场被拦下来。
Like, I'm not getting stopped in an airport for King Joffrey reasons.
你走过的时候，人们都在为你欢呼。
People are cheering you when you walk past.
他们不会等着往我杯子里下毒，对吧。
They're not they're not they're not waiting to poison my drink Right.
因为他们知道那是唯一能
Because they know that's the only way
干掉我的办法。
to kill me.
作为演员，有没有哪个角色让你本人感到很有挑战？
As an actor, you know, was there a character you played where it challenged you, the person?
我最挣扎的一次是演一个角色。
The hardest I've struggled was, you know, to play a part.
可能不完全是你问的那种，因为那又是我自己写的东西，但那个我留胡子演的戏叫《绝对肮脏》，它的设定是花生漫画里那群脏兮兮的小孩长大后的样子，但重点是讲脏小鬼的。
Might not technically be what you're asking for again because, like, it is another thing that I wrote, but the the play I wrote where I had the beard called Absolutely Filthy, and the conceit of it is that it's the, Pigpen gang as grown ups, but focused on Pigpen.
不好意思，是花生漫画那群小孩长大后的故事，重点是
Excuse me, the Peanuts gang as grown up and focusing on
脏小鬼。
Pigpen.
而小猪还是那么脏，脏到无家可归，精神上也有点问题，他发现自己站在一座教堂前，那里正在为查理·布朗举行葬礼。
And Pigpen is still dirty, so dirty that he's homeless and he's a bit mentally disturbed, and he find himself in front of a church where they're having the funeral for Charlie Brown.
整个团伙都回来参加葬礼，但他们不让他进去，因为他太脏了。
And the whole gang are coming back to this, but they won't let him in because he's he's disgusting.
而他们都过得很好。
And they're all doing fine.
那里面有很多我自己的影子，以及我当时的生活状态，你知道，我产生这个想法的时候甚至都没意识到。
There was a lot of me in that and what my life was at the time, which, you know, was not even conscious when I had the idea.
但现在回头看，这连廉价心理学都算不上。
But now looking back, it's you know, it's not even dime store psychology.
连五分钱都不值。
It'll cost barely a nickel.
就像是我觉得自己一文不值，因为我的很多同龄人都混得很好。
It's like that was me feeling worthless because so many of my peers were doing so well.
所以这部剧里有很多那种演讲，你知道，就是那种疯子在街角给自己打气的那种东西。
And so the the the play has a lot of, like, speeches and, you know, crazy guy revving himself up on a street corner type of stuff.
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