从AI伴侣到个人软件：预见未来

目前，人工智能只是你手机上的一个应用。它不该止步于此。有时候你需要放手一搏，否则就干脆退出。在当前环境下若缺乏这种勇气，你可能会承受后果。这个领域的建设者中存在一个巨大的思维陷阱，他们误以为语音是主要的交互方式。

Right now, AI is just an app on your phone. It should not be that way. And sometimes you need to sort of go big or go home. Not having the balls to do that, especially in this current environment, you can suffer the consequences. There's a huge mind trap that exists among builders in the space where they somehow think that voice is the main interface.

这是因为他们总是不自觉地联想到电影《她》，但理解方向完全错了。

That's because they are somehow thinking about the movie Her all the time, but not in the right way.

所以在这个领域众人尚未涉足时，你已是真正的先驱。能否谈谈你参与创建这个类别时的思考，以及它后续的发展演变？

So you were true pioneer in the space before everyone else was doing it. Maybe just talk about your reflections of how that category has as as you helped create it and then how how it's evolved.

确实发生了巨变。我们都注意到了，这简直不可思议。虽然我们坚信这会成真，但当它真正发生时依然感到震惊。这至今仍像魔法般令人难以置信。

It definitely evolved. Have noticed. It's really crazy. We had a very strong belief that it would happen, but we still were so surprised when it actually happened. Guess this was just it just still felt like complete magic.

个人软件开发即将从2000万开发者爆发式增长到80亿创作者。今天，您将听到尤金妮·奥科德讲述Wabi如何打造应用界的YouTube，让每个人都能像发布视频一样轻松创建、混搭和分享软件。我们将探讨为何现有AI界面阻碍发展，众多应用如何成为新型社交货币，以及当软件变得短暂、个性化且充满乐趣时的真正意义。让我们开始吧。

Personal software is about to explode from 20,000,000 developers to 8,000,000,000 creators. Today, you'll hear from Eugenie Okoide on how Wabi is building the YouTube of apps, where anyone can create, remix, and share software as easily as posting a video. We discuss why current AI interfaces are holding us back, how many apps will become the new social currency, and what it really means when software becomes ephemeral, personal, and delightful. Let's get into it.

朱进，我很期待深入了解你在Wabi的所有工作，但首先让我们做些背景铺垫。回顾你过去十年左右的职业生涯，从Replica到Wabi等项目，贯穿始终的主线是什么？

Zhujin, I'm excited to get into everything you're doing with Wabi, but first, let's contextualize this a little bit. When you look back at sort of the arc of your career, perhaps the last decade, what is the through line through Replica, Wabi, etcetera?

哇，这真是个难题。但我想主线或许是我们总是先行者，有时可能太早了，但愿这次是恰到好处的早。我从2012年就开始研究AI，距今已超过十年，始终着迷于能与机器进行有意义的对话这个理念。但更重要的是，这种交互能以非常积极的方式影响人们的生活。

Oh, wow. That's a hard question. But I guess maybe the main theme is we're always early, sometimes a little bit too early, sometimes, hopefully this time around the right type of early. But generally, yeah, I've started working on AI in 2012, so over a decade ago, and was always fascinated by kind of the idea that you'll be able to talk to a machine, to have a meaningful conversation with a machine. But more importantly, with the fact that that could influence your life in a really good way.

在此之前，真正的焦点是这些AI伴侣、AI朋友，它们能真正陪伴你，帮助你过上更好的生活，让你感觉更好。而现在我想这其实是同样的理念，只是应用到了个人软件上。比如，我们能否开发一些小程序或软件，以非常个性化的方式真正帮助我们度过每一天？我们将专注于你，帮助你过上更好的生活。

And before that was really the focus was on these AI companions, AI friends that could really be there for you and help you live a better life, help you feel better. And now I guess it's just the same idea, but applied to personal software. Like, can we build mini apps or software that will really help us throughout the day in a very personal way? And we'll be focused on you, on helping you live a better life.

追溯你是如何对这个新领域产生兴趣的历程，以及你希望它发展成什么样子。

Trace the journey of how you got excited about this new category and what you hope it becomes.

我想在运营Replica期间，我们经常与用户讨论他们使用哪些其他产品以及如何使用AI。让我感到奇怪的是，他们虽然在使用像Chaijipati或Gemini Cloth这样的产品，但实际上主要用它们处理非常简单的场景。比如，他们用Chaijipati只是为了搜索或帮忙写点东西，辅导作业之类的。几乎没人提到我们不断看到的那些模型具备的激动人心的能力。所以我们觉得这一定是个界面设计问题。

I guess while running Replica, we always had these conversations with our users about what other products they use and how they use AI. And it always struck me as strange that they were using products like Chaijipati or Gemini Cloth, but really they were mostly using it for very simple use cases. Like, they were using Chaijipati just for search or to help them write something, help with homework or something else. And no one was really mentioning any of these exciting capabilities that we just kept seeing the models get. And so we felt like there must be an interface problem.

当人们看到命令行或聊天机器人时，他们真正看到的只是搜索、写作工具，或许还能对话。但如果你细想，这是命令行的功能属性，而非主要使用场景。我记得最近Cheziopti OpenAI发布的一项研究显示，这些确实是主要使用场景——约三分之一的用途与写作辅助有关。这让我们意识到，应该需要某种下一代交互界面。

When people look at a command line or a chatbot, they really just see search, writing tool, maybe I can talk to this. But if you think about that's the affordance of a command line, not really these are the main use cases. I think even recently, Cheziopti OpenAI published one of those studies showing that these are in fact the main use cases for tragedy. I think a third of all of the use was around writing writing help. And so, that gave us an idea that there should be some next interface.

应该在这基础上更进一步。需要更互动、可视化、简单易懂的方式，让我和所有人能真正发现这些模型已有的惊人用途。于是我们开始着迷于一个比喻：当前聊天机器人就像AI交互界面的微软DOS时代，而未来必将迎来Windows或macOS式的突破时刻。令人困惑的是，尽管聊天机器人已拥有巨大吸引力——近十亿人在使用这些AI工具——但人们只用它们处理简单场景。要解锁更多可能，就需要更出色的交互界面。

There should be something else on top of this. There should be something more interactive, visual, simple for everyone, me included, to actually discover these amazing use cases that all these models already have. And so we started thinking we got obsessed with this metaphor that the current chatbots are really the Microsoft DOS era for AI interfaces, and that there will be some sort of a Windows macOS moment. And I think the confusing part for most people is that there is so much traction with chatbots anyway, almost a billion people using these AI tools already, but they only use them for these kind of simpler use cases. And in order to unlock something else, you need a more exciting interface.

请更具体描绘当这个Windows或Mac OS时刻到来时，世界会是什么样子？那将呈现怎样的图景？

Paint more of a picture of what the world will look like when this Windows or Mac OS moment happened. What will that look like?

嗯，我认为当前我们处于这样的范式：我成长时只有电视，可能几十个频道。在俄罗斯，我们只有六个电视频道。当然现在电视依然存在，但我们会看YouTube、Reels和TikTok，大量用户生成内容。

Well, I do think right now we exist in the paradigm of when I was growing up, we had TV. And here you had maybe a few dozen TV channels. Back in Russia, we only had six TV channels. And so then, of course, now TV still exists. But now we watch YouTube and Reels and TikTok, a lot of UGC stuff.

因此我认为软件也会经历同样的变革。目前我们仍被困在由专业开发者开发少数应用的世界里。但最终，我们必将进入一个新时代——应用将由所有人共同开发、为所有人服务，有时甚至由AI代劳。想象一下未来的操作系统，当你打开它，映入眼帘的是你日常使用的主流应用，可能是X，可能是Instagram，无论是什么。

And so I think the same will happen with software. Right now, we're kinda stuck in this world where are these few apps developed by professional developers. And then eventually, of course, we're gonna move on to this new world where apps are built by all of us for all of us, and maybe sometimes by AI for us. So, if you think about it, the operating system of the future, you open it up and you see your regular popular apps you use all the time. Maybe it's X, maybe it's Instagram, whatever it is.

接着你会看到些新奇应用——可能是你发现好友正在用的，或是你为自己开发的，又或是你改造现成应用而成的。AI还会为你推荐专属应用。比如下周你要去纽约且热爱艺术，它就会生成一个艺术展搜寻应用，帮你找到住处周边的展览。这样的系统将更灵活、可塑，且深度个性化。

And then you see maybe some cool apps that you discovered your best friend's using or maybe you built for yourself or you tweaked one of the apps you found for yourself. And then you'll see AI suggesting some apps for you. Maybe you're going to New York next week and you're into art. So it made an art show finder app for you, which is gonna help you find art shows around the Airbnb you're staying at. So it's a lot more flexible, malleable, and very deeply personalized.

不妨将其视为基于你个人平台打造的操作系统，而非固定场景的产物。

Think of it as an operating system built on the platform of you and not on some random fixed context.

能否详细阐述？我们一直认为软件必须持久耐用，因为开发成本高昂且事关重大。你设想中类似纽约艺术馆应用的这类短暂性软件会以什么形式存在？

Can you talk about that? We've always had this idea that software has to be durable because it's really expensive to make and seems really serious. What types of ephemeral software, like the New York Art Gallery app, do you imagine existing?

其实现在我们已经看到首批用户在构建非常小众的应用，这些应用永远不可能出现在应用商店——它们太微小、太个性化、太冷门了，没有两万个功能。比如有人做了个励志语录应用，内容仅来自某部我完全不了解的剧集。

Well, so right now, we're already seeing, you know, some of our first users building very specific apps that would never exist on the App Store. They're just too small. They're too personalized, too niche. They don't have 20,000 features. Like, someone built a motivational quote app that's only pulling from one particular show that I didn't even know anything about.

但这位用户痴迷那部剧，就想在清晨5:30获取相关语录。人们正在打造极度贴合自身需求的东西。比如前几天我哄孩子睡觉时，女儿总爱玩猜谜游戏——我描述事物让她猜。于是我们快速开发了个游戏：显示四张图片让她选择，但她坚持要加入艾莎公主和茉莉公主的元素。

But he's really obsessed with that show, and so he just wants that at 05:30AM when he wakes up. I feel like people are building very particular things to fit their needs. Like, for example, I was putting my kids to bed the other day, and my daughter wants to play these puzzle games when I tell her something, she's trying to guess what it is. And so we built a game very quickly where it's a puzzle and then she sees four pictures. She can click on one, but she also wanted them to be about princess Elsa and princess Jasmine.

我们满足了她的要求。现在她玩着这些谜题学习新知识时开心极了。后来我们又把游戏改成意大利语版本，因为她上的是意大利幼儿园，这成了另一种练习方式。她兴奋得根本停不下来。

And so we had to incorporate that. And so now she was so happy because now she's doing these puzzles, learning something new. And then we changed it to Italian because she goes to an Italian preschool, and so this is another way to practice. And she's so excited. We couldn't put this thing away.

我只花了两分钟就把它做出来了，然后调整它只花了几秒钟，比上应用商店方便多了。我甚至不知道有没有类似的应用，还要经历15分钟的新手引导，又麻烦，结果还不是她想要的。完全没有个性化。所以我觉得这类场景正适合用这种方式。而且我认为未来应该能直接说声'嘿'就能搞定。

And it took me two minutes to build it and then, you know, a few seconds to tweak it versus going on the App Store. Don't even know if an app like that exists and going through fifteen minute onboarding, pain again, then it's not really what she wanted. There's no personalization there. So I think these are the use cases where something like that should happen. And I do think in the future, should just be able to say, hey.

比如我正在哄孩子睡觉，或者它应该能识别这个场景，直接给我推荐几个现成的、马上就能用的应用。

I'm putting my kids to bed, or it should know that context and just maybe suggest a few apps that are already prebuilt for me that I could use right now.

有意思，我刚换了新iPhone。新手机上我删掉了一堆旧应用，因为喜欢从头开始。大概有十几个应用，有些还是付费的，现在完全不需要了，因为我自己做了更好的版本——从偏头痛追踪到餐厅推荐记录，再到高度个性化的笔记应用，还有特定风格的图片处理工具。可以想象很多人也会这样，与其找那些充斥着疯狂广告、弹窗不断、难用又不个性化的长尾应用，不如随时自己动手做出想要的东西再调整，我觉得这是产品最酷的地方之一。

It's funny. I just got a new iPhone. And on the new phone, I got to delete a bunch of my old apps because I like to start fresh. And there were like probably over a dozen apps that I downloaded and in some cases paid for that I just totally didn't need anymore because I built better versions of it on Everything from like migraine tracking to like tracking restaurant recommendations to like a really hyper personalized notes app to special things around image transformation in a particular style. And I can imagine that will be true for a lot of people, which is like instead of having to find this long tail app that's running all these crazy ads, pop ups all the time, and is hard to use and is not personalized to you, you can just make exactly what you want on the fly and tweak it, which is another really cool part of the product, I think.

听你在用这个我很高兴。但对我来说，这就是Wabi的产品市场契合点。我发现有几件事特别需要应用来记录，比如初学者的平台举重训练。我刚明白要逐渐增加重量。

And I'm so glad to hear that you're using it. But for me, that was kind of the product market fit with Wabi. For me, was around that where I found there were a few things I really needed and wanted an app for to track my weightlifting. Very beginner platform weightlifting workouts. I just figured out you gotta go up in weight.

我之前不知道啊，一个女人怎么会懂？总之我用苹果备忘录记着，还试着在应用商店找了些应用。

I didn't know. How would I know? A woman. Anyway, so I got this. I'm gonna checking it in Apple Notes, and I tried to find some apps on the app store.

这些应用里太多我不需要的功能。我就想要个简单的——而且我在跟练一本特定的书，希望训练计划能基于那本书。所以我自己做了个简单的应用来记录这些训练。现在每次去健身房前都会更新它。

There's just so much in these apps that I didn't need. And so I just wanted a really simple I'm also trying to follow one particular book. I wanted the workouts to be based on that book. So anyway, I built a simple app to track these workouts. And then now anytime I go to the gym I built it on the way to the gym.

但现在每次去健身房，我都会发现想添加的新功能。一开始只是个追踪器，现在它能根据我的所有输入——我的状态、正在跟练的书、渐进式超负荷技巧等等——生成新训练计划。我把这些都写进提示词里，每次去健身房都会补充一点。

But now anytime I go to the gym, I find something else I wanna add to it. First, it was just the tracker. Now it's generating new workouts based on all of my inputs, where I am, mad, the book I'm trying to follow, whatever the latter technique of progressive overload. And so I put it all in the prompt. And every time I go to the gym, I add a little bit to that.

我想要多一点这个，多一点那个。所以现在我不只是在使用这个应用，我还在不断调整它并重新发布到Wabi小程序商店。希望有人会发现

I want a little more of this and a little more of that. So now I'm not just using the app, I'm kind of constantly in the process of tweaking it and republishing it to Wabi mini app store. Hopefully, someone will find

它有用。你觉得你认识多少人？一般来说，当你考虑你的受众时，你认为会是九比十的消费创造比例吗？还是你认为大多数人——比如我们在Sora上看到的一个现象是，很多人、大多数人都参与创作。你觉得Wabi会像那样吗？

it useful. How many people do you think you know, generally as you think your audience, do you think it will be ninety ten sort of consumption creation? Or do you think that most people I think one of the things we saw with Sora, for example, is that many people, the majority of people are creating. Do you think that Wabi will be like that?

我希望至少会有更多人参与调整。但要说完全原创的创作者，可能还是不到10%。我们这周正在推进一个大更新——社交图谱。这样你就能看到谁下载了哪些小程序、他们如何使用。你还能看到评论或点赞。

I hope that more people will at least tweak. But I'd say like fully kind of original creators probably still under 10%. And what we're working on right now, this week we're releasing, we're pushing sort of a big update, the social graph. So, you'll be able to see who is downloading what mini apps, how they're using them. You're gonna be able to see comments or like mini apps.

举个例子，如果我创建了那个健身应用，用户可以在评论区要求我调整。他们也可以混改，按自己意愿修改应用。也许他们只是想让这个特定应用有些不同。他们可以留言，而作为创作者，我当然会阅读所有评论并修改应用，让这些人也能使用。

And so, this case, for example, if I created that workout app, someone in comments can ask me to tweak it. They can also remix it and change the app however they want. But maybe they just want this particular app to be slightly different. So, they can put in comments. And maybe as a creator, of course, I'm gonna be reading all the comments and changing the app also for these people to be able to use it.

我觉得这很酷，因为它突然让事情不再只是为自己开发应用。而是关于发现应用、了解朋友在用些什么、一起使用这些应用等等。甚至可以要求创作者按特定方式修改它们。

So, I think this is cool because it creates all of a sudden It's not just about building apps for yourself. It's really about discovering apps and finding what your friends are using, using these apps together, and so on and so on. And even asking creators to change them in some particular way.

太棒了。Anish和Justine，我们讨论的这些关于个人软件的分类或主题，如何与我们在投资领域探索的主题相关联？是什么让我们对此感到兴奋？

Amazing. Anish and Justine, how do the categories or the topics that we've been discussing as it relates to personal software relate to themes that we've been exploring on the investing side as in terms of what got us excited here?

是的。我认为Eugenia提到的YouTube比喻很恰当——在2007年我们会说100个电视频道就够了（或者你所在地区是6个）。而现在显然有整个生态系统，从开箱视频到各种非常YouTube原生的内容。我觉得人们某种程度上获得了更丰富的内容满足。此外还有创作行为本身。

Yeah. I mean, look, I think that the YouTube metaphor is the right one that Eugenia outlined, which is that we would have said in 2007 that 100 cable channels is enough or six in your case. And now we obviously, there's this entire ecosystem, everything from unboxing videos to all of the, like, very YouTube native content that exists. And I think people are sort of have more content or more fulfilled by it. And then there's also the act of creation.

有些人创作是为了商业，但许多人创作和发布仅仅是为了自我实现。而软件之所以如此受限，是因为全球仅有2000万开发者。从某种意义上说，我们消费的所有软件都源于这2000万人的偏好。

Some people create for a business, but many create and post just because it's fulfilling to themselves. And software has just been so restrictive because there's only 20,000,000 developers in the world. So in a sense, all of the software that we consume is downstream of the preferences of those 20,000,000 people.

嗯。

Mhmm.

直觉告诉我们，如果更多人能开发软件，他们就会这么做，这里将出现一个大众消费市场。与许多其他产品不同——你可以对此发表看法——这感觉不像是文本转应用。你知道，这不是面向开发者或准开发者的工具，而是真正面向非技术人群的大众消费产品。

And it seems intuitive that if more people could make software, they would, and that there would be a mass market consumer product here. I think unlike many of the other products, and you should comment on this, that we've seen, it feels like this is not text to app. You know, it's not a developer or developer adjacent tool. It's truly a mass market consumer product for nontechnical people.

我同意你的观点，我们很早就做出选择：应用中绝不会显示任何代码或提及任何技术性内容。没有API密钥，没有‘连接这个集成’之类的操作。我们确实有集成功能，你可以添加应用和服务，但只需说‘使用我的Apple Health’或‘使用这个’、‘使用那个’、‘使用我的邮箱’。我们称之为‘能量加持’。

I agree with you, and we really made this kind of choice early on that we're never gonna show any code or anything or say anything in the app that's even remotely technical. No API keys, no bring this whatever, connect this integration or anything like that. We do have integrations. You can add your apps and services, but you can just say, you know, use my Apple Health or use this, use that, or use my email. And we call them Power Ups.

这大概就是你能接触到的最技术化的部分了。但我们希望——是的，我们希望让任何人都能超级简单地创建应用，让这个过程充满乐趣，快得像随手创作。你甚至不是在正经‘开发应用’。我们现在新增的功能更多是参考了Canva——这家公司让我们看到人们能多么轻松地制作精美演示文稿。这里也需要类似的事情发生。

So that's sort of the more probably the most technical you're gonna get here. But we wanted so, yeah, we wanted to make it super simple for anyone to make apps and to make this process very delightful and almost to feel like you're just creating something really quick. You're not even really building many apps. What we're adding right now is more I think the company or the product we're looking at most is Canva and the ease with which they're letting people create beautiful presentations. Similar of similar thing needs to happen here.

现在我们经常谈论‘氛围编程’，但我觉得更应该关注‘氛围审美’或‘氛围设计’。所以我们会提供更多可视化控件，比如‘选择样式’、‘选择颜色’。你可以稍作深入，但本质上只需一个按钮就能让效果很棒——而不是必须钻研技术细节来处理你的迷你应用。我认为这能释放某种创造力，你只需要思考：‘使用场景是什么？’

Right now, we're talking about Vibe coding a lot, but I feel like we should be more about Vibe kinda taste or Vibe designing these apps. So, we're gonna give a lot more of the just visual controls. More in the vein of like choose a style, choose some colors. And you can go a little bit deeper, but really it's just one button and things look great versus, yeah, you need to go deep and just really try to understand what to do and get technical with your mini app. And I do think that unlocks a certain level of creativity where all you need to think about is like, what's the use case?

我们的投资人Soleo还提到一个有趣观点：迷你应用可能成为社区启动器。如今应用商店完全不社交化——由于苹果对隐私的严格要求（这很棒），可能永远也不会社交化。但与此同时，人们可能想知道：还有谁对Petrie Hill的幼儿活动感兴趣？我想了解其他妈妈选择哪家意大利幼儿园？我希望自己的孩子也去那所幼儿园。

One other interesting thing that one of our investors, Soleo, mentioned was that mini apps could become kind of community starters. So, if today the app store is very much not social, and it probably won't ever be social because of Apple's mandate for privacy and how important that is for them, which is great. But at the same time, probably do wanna know who else is into, I don't know, toddler activities in Petrie Hill. I wanna know what other moms are going to in Italian preschool. I want to have their kids go to that preschool.

也许吧，我不确定，我的设计灵感主要来自伦敦某个特定社区的观鸟活动。所以开发这个应用，并找到一些对此话题感兴趣的人来共同构建社区。

And maybe, I don't know, my design is really into bird watching in London, in his particular neighborhood. So, creating that app and finding some other people who could be a little bit of a community building around that topic.

是的。我认为你们在产品设计上做了许多有趣的选择，感觉是建立在当前流行的氛围编程（vibe coding）或AI构建热潮基础上的，无论你怎么称呼它，都显得非常新颖。其中一个亮点是，对许多消费者来说，现有工具比从零开始编程要容易得多。但它们仍然容易被用坏或让人不知所措。而我认为Wabi特意设置了防护措施，让用户很难搞砸，这对消费者来说非常实用。

Yeah. I think there's a bunch of really interesting choices you guys made in designing the product that it feels like really built on the explosion in like vibe coding or building with AI, whatever you want to call it, in a super interesting way. One of which is like, yeah, for many consumers, the existing tools are a lot more accessible than like coding something from scratch. But it's still pretty easy to like break them or get to something where you don't know what to do. Whereas I think Wabi, you've purposely put guardrails around the experience to make it hard to like super mess up, which is actually extremely helpful for consumers.

而且感觉我们需要超越这种模式：很棒，你用氛围编程做了个网站，它就存在那里。但这真的是你每天使用产品、存储个人信息、管理记录等需求的最佳界面吗？很可能不是。对很多人来说，手机才是他们主要的上网设备，是他们使用各种服务的主要界面。

And then it also feels like, you know, we needed to move beyond this paradigm of like, great, you vibe code a website and it exists out there. But like is that the best interface for you to be using a product you want to use daily and storing personal information on and having your own records and like all of these sorts of things? Probably not. And for a lot of people, like their phone is where they spend most of their time online. It's kind of their primary interface and where they want to use things.

当然我知道移动端设计存在各种挑战。但你们选择从这里切入非常明智，这样能更深入地融入人们的日常生活或工作流程。

And so obviously I know there's like challenges designing for mobile and that sort of thing. But it felt like a really smart choice for you guys to start there just to get so much more deeply ingrained in someone's daily life or daily workflow.

你知道，我基本上只开发移动应用。我特别喜欢移动应用的理念，很多功能你无法简单地通过网站或链接实现。确实如此。而且我非常相信组织层的概念——某种程度上说，应用商店就是移动端的组织层。

You know, I've only pretty much built mobile apps. I really like the idea of mobile apps and a lot of things you're not gonna be doing on really just putting in a website or whatever, some link. Exactly. And I do believe a lot in the concept of an organizational layer. To a degree, the app store is the organizational layer for the mobile.

浏览器是互联网的组织层。因此，我认为氛围编程（pipe coding）或这个AI软件的新时代也需要类似的东西。我相信我们都会开发某种软件，并使用大家共同构建的用户生成内容（UGC）软件。但我绝不相信人们会互相分享链接，依赖某个非专业开发者的随机人士来维护可能存储敏感数据（或至少是不想丢失的数据）的应用数据库。

The browser is the organizational layer for internet. And so, something like that should exist for pipe coding, I guess, or for this new era of software for AI. Let's call it AI software. And I don't believe that people will be I do believe that we're all gonna be building some sort of software and using software that everyone builds, some UGC software. But I definitely don't believe in links that people will share with each other and with me relying on some random person somewhere who's not a professional developer to support the database for the app where I might store some sensitive data, or at least data that I don't want to disappear, even if it's not very sensitive.

我们已经看到一些氛围编程开发的应用登上了应用商店榜首。比如那个女性约会应用，所有敏感信息都被泄露了。这不是因为他们心怀不轨，而是因为他们不是专业开发者。所以需要存在一个能让所有东西安全运行的平台。

And we've already seen this with some Vibe coated apps reaching the top of the app store. I think the one around women dating that all the super sensitive information got leaked. And that wasn't because they are bad actors. It's just they're not professional developers. So there needs to exist some some platform where everything will live.

某种程度上，我们并不是在某个地方观看视频。你只是在某个地方看到视频。我们在Instagram、TikTok、YouTube上观看。现在人们不再互相分享链接了。因此，我认为当前的情况与互联网初期非常相似，那时人们用GeoCities之类的工具创建个人主页，不过那些工具我记不太清了，因为当时用得很少。

And to a degree, we're not watching videos somewhere. You just see videos somewhere. We're watching them on Instagram, on TikTok, on YouTube. It's not like people are passing around links. And so, the current situation I do think is very similar to the very beginning of the Internet where people were creating personal pages with GeoCities and some other tools like that, which I don't remember very well because it was very little.

但在LinkedIn出现之前，人们确实会互相发送这些链接。当然现在有了LinkedIn，平台设定了某些限制——你无法像在GeoCities上那样随心所欲，但同时你获得了社交图谱、平台支持以及各种酷炫功能。这就像电商领域的Shopify一样。

But, yeah, before LinkedIn, people were sending these links to each other. And, of course, now there's LinkedIn. There are certain guardrails. You can't really do everything the way you could do in GeoCities, but at the same time, have to get the social graph, you get the platform, you get all sorts of cool things there. I guess the same as Shopify for e commerce.

是的，你可以自建网店，但现在没人真这么做了。大家都在用Shopify，从而获得全平台的所有优势。我觉得Wabi也会经历同样的发展。没错。

Yeah. You can build your own online store, but no one's really doing it anymore. Everyone's just using Shopify, and then they also get the all the platform benefits. And I feel like the same will happen with Wabi. Yes.

你无法从Wabi下载应用并上传到App Store，但可以在Wabi内部使用它，获得社交图谱、所有集成功能、应用间潜在的共享上下文、用户背后的记忆数据等等。

You cannot download an app from Wabi and put on the App Store, but you can use it inside Wabi and you can get the social graph and all the integrations and the potentially the shared context between all the apps and the memory behind for that user and so on and so on and so on.

我们共同的朋友Heaton说过，Wabi不只是一堆应用的集合，而是记忆、上下文和表达的框架。每次你创建或分享内容时，都在教它认识你。你是这么理解的吗？

Our mutual friend, Heaton, said that Wabi is not just a collection of apps. It's a framework for memory, context, and expression. Every time you create or share, you're teaching it who you are. Is that how you see it?

我百分之百相信这个理念。我记得——当然你们也记得——最初的iOS应用只是人们试图把网站塞进应用格式，或是像iBeer这样的玩具应用。我最喜欢的是那个卖999.99美元却什么功能都没有的《我是土豪》。后来人们才意识到移动应用的独特之处在于GPS和联网功能，于是催生了Uber、Tinder这些全新类别的应用。

I believe in it 100%. I think with every I I still remember, of course, and you guys obviously remember it too, but I do remember how the first iOS apps were just people trying to squeeze those websites into an app format or just kind of toy apps like iBeer. Or there was my favorite one, I Am Rich, that was 9 and $99.99 and it didn't do anything. And then, of course, people figure out, well, there's something special about this being a mobile app and maybe GPS and connectivity. And things like Uber and Tinder came out of whole new categories of apps.

所以他们发现了移动端的特殊性。而我认为AI最特别的是个性化，真正深度的个性化。如果我随便写个应用，那还是传统软件——它不考虑你的上下文，应用数据也不暴露给持续学习的AI，这就过时了。我非常认同Andre提出的软件3.0概念，那种超级深度个性化的新一代软件。所以如果你从Wabi小程序的语境思考：该如何实现个性化？

And so they figured out what's so special about mobile. And I feel like for AI, the super special thing is personalization, but really deep personalization. So, me, kind of vibe coding an app, but that still is sort of like the same old software that's not really taken any of your context into consideration where the data of that app is not exposed to AI that keeps learning, is kind of just old school. I do believe a lot in Andre's idea of like software three point zero, some next level of software that's super deeply personalized. So, if you think in the context of a Wobbly mini app, how can you personalize it?

首先，你可以个性化功能、外观，或者以某种方式定制应用皮肤。除此之外，你还能修改提示词。比如在我的健身应用中，我在提示词里添加了几项内容：我正在读的书、我想采用的训练方法。还包括我常去的SF Fitness健身房——我上传了那家 gym 的照片，这样模型生成的训练方案就不会出现与健身房实际规模完全不符的情况。

First of all, you can personalize the features, the looks, or skin the app in a certain way. But then on top of that, you can also change the prompts. So, for example, for my workout app, I added to the prompt a couple things. First of all, the book that I'm reading, that method that I want to work out using that method. Also, the fact that I go to SF Fitness and it has a certain I added a photo of that gym, so kind of the model is not generating workouts in a completely different size of the gym.

如果是超大场地，器械必须相邻摆放。这就是我们正在实现的深度个性化层级。当然在Wabi平台层，小程序还知道我的年龄、居住地（旧金山）、有孩子等个人信息，以及我的健身目标等等。未来当我开发另一个关于营养的小程序时，这些应用应该能互通并传递上下文信息。而目前所有这些数据都被困在各自的封闭生态里。

If it's a super size, it has to be next to each other. So, this is the deep, deep, deep level of personalization that is following. And, of course, on the Wabi platform layer level, the mini app also knows that I'm a certain age, that I live in San Francisco, that I have kids, these are my fitness goals, and so on and so on. And then eventually when I build another mini app, maybe around nutrition, those apps should be able to talk and pass along that context. And today, of course, all of that exists in just the walled gardens.

你被完全锁定在单一应用中，这在我看来简直荒谬。我无法建立连接——明明我的邮箱或日历可以同时对接这两个应用，却必须每次都找开发者重复搭建这套流程。

You're fully locked in in one app, which to me feels absolutely crazy. And I can't connect. If I connected my email or my calendar, it can be connected to both of these apps. I have to go through the process with every developer all the time. They have to build it.

我还得手动连接，这也太离谱了。

I have to connect it. That seems crazy too.

你设想人们会开发真正的社交应用吗？那种应用内包含社区体验的？

Do you imagine people building true social apps where the in app experience involves a community?

我非常期待。事实上我们正在开发多人协作功能。花了一整天研究这个复杂问题——因为不同应用的多人模式可能截然不同，还需要用直观的方式向用户解释。但我坚信应该先实现与亲友共同使用应用，未来再扩展成开放社区型应用。

I'd love that. And we're building multiplayer right now as we speak. We spend the whole day to try to figure out like what It's really complex just because all apps can have very different type of multiplayer. And that needs to be explained to users as well in a very intuitive way. But yeah, totally believe in, first of all, using apps together, at least with your friends, your family, but also potentially building these more kind of community apps where everyone can join.

或许我可以把自己的应用改成多人模式并开放加入。比如有人做了个狗狗图片生成器，能把任何狗狗变成不同时代的皇室肖像。如果所有养狗人士都能加入这个应用并在公共动态墙发帖就太棒了——这正是我们今天讨论的酷点子。

Maybe I can make my app multiplayer and open for everyone to join. A good example of that is made some ImageGen app around dogs where you can turn any of your dogs into like a royal some user built it. It's like a royal portrait of different era. So, that would be cool for all the dog owners to just join that app and to be able to post to the universal feed. And so, that's something we've been talking about today because this would be really cool.

与其你只是拍这些照片然后分享些文字，不如把它们加入源源不断的狗狗照片流中。抱歉。不，不。

Instead of you just making these photos and then sharing some word, you're just adding them to the ongoing feed of dog photos. Sorry. No, no.

我认为这是个很好的例子。嗯，是的，我绝对不是狗狗。我觉得现在图像和视频提示分享有很多非常不优化的方式。就像我一直在关注的，你知道的，像青少年女孩和大学女生往往是新事物的早期采用者。她们一直在制作这些纳米、香蕉和奎因风格的图片编辑提示，比如她们躺在沙发上，后面是万圣节的鬼脸杀手。

I think it's a great example. Well, yeah, I'm definitely not be to dog. I feel like there are so many examples too of image and video prompt sharing that happens in very unoptimized ways today. Like I've been following a lot, as you know very well, like teen girls and college age girls are often early adopters of stuff. And they have been making all of these like nano, banana, and Quinn image edit prompts of like them lying on a couch and the ghost face killers behind them for like Halloween.

她们会把图片发到TikTok或Wheels等平台，然后就会爆火。接着她们会在TikTok评论区写这种长篇提示，这种方式毫无意义。然后大家都在问：我该去哪里做这个？我有Google应用，为什么不能这样做？

And they'll like post the image on TikTok or Wheels or wherever, and it'll blow up. And then they'll be like commenting like this long form prompt like in the comments on TikTok, which makes no sense as a way to do it. And then everyone's asking like, where do I go to do this? Like, I have the Google app. Why isn't it letting me do this?

然后你得解释说：不，你需要Gemini应用。感觉已经有这种消费者需求和消费行为围绕着提示分享，特别是创意内容方面，这方面可以做得更好。我已经为此做了很多Wobby小应用，完全可以做得更好。我认为创意社区会因此蓬勃发展。

And you have to explain like, no, you need the Gemini app. And it just feels like there's already this consumer demand and consumer behavior around like prompt sharing in particular for creative stuff that could be done. I've already made a bunch of Wobby mini apps for this, and it could be done so much better. And I think the creative community would really thrive with this.

哦，这真是最...我想这就是我们创立公司的原因。我们拥有这种神级技术，却还在用这些文本提示互相传递，这简直比微软DOS命令还糟糕。至少那些命令还能学习，就那么几个，很短。

Oh, that was the most And I guess this is why we started the company. How is it possible that we have this godlike technology, yet we pass around these text prompts, which is almost like Microsoft DOS commands, but worse. Because at least the commands were sort of like you could learn them. Were a few, whatever. They were short.

它们没那么长。而现在这些疯狂的非结构化文本段落，有时还需要参考图片或其他东西。在我看来这有点疯狂。我认为这是AI发现面临的最大问题之一。即使你看到了输出结果，比如那张很酷的幽灵照片，也很难找到这些提示。

They weren't that long. And now these crazy unstructured paragraphs of text, sometimes you also need a reference image or something else. To me, that's a little bit crazy. And I think that is kind of one of the biggest problems of discovery with AI. It's hard to find these prompts, even if you saw the output of You saw this cool photo with the ghost, whatever.

但我要怎么重现呢？我需要找到提示，需要知道用什么应用，需要选择什么模型。很多时候这甚至不太直观。

But then how do I recreate that? I need to find the prompt. I need to know what app. I need to know what model to choose. Oftentimes, it's not even very intuitive.

就在那一刻，我完全失去了做这件事的动力。与其那样，不如直接在TikTok评论区快速点击链接，打开一个已经为你设置好的小程序，只需添加照片就行。你可以看到示例，选择不同风格等等，还能在评论区看到其他人的作品。我认为这才是正确方向。最有趣的是它融合了编程应用的热潮——至少是去年最大的趋势之一——同时结合了AI技术。

And at that point, I've just lost all my motivation to do that. Instead of that, if you could just quickly click on the link in comments on TikTok and open a mini app where everything's already set up for you, just add a photo. And you can see examples, you can choose different styles and this and that, and then you can see in comments what other people are doing. I think this is the way to go. And I think what's most interesting, it sort of combines the vibe coding apps, one of the biggest kind of trends of the last year at least, and also just using AI.

在此之前，市场是割裂的：要么属于文本转提示词的应用市场，要么属于其他领域。而这个产品真正整合了两者，成为既能使用精彩提示词又能模糊这种差异的统一平台。

Before that, was all, it's either the are you in the text to prompt to app market or are you in some other market? And this kind of puts together, like, is really the one place to use amazing prompts or and it kind of blends this difference.

你知道吗，你提到这种分享提示词的方式可能成为大众消费行为或未来趋势，这很有趣。对于那些只用过ChatGPT的普通人，你认为这种新行为会让他们感到意外需要适应，还是觉得直观自然，仿佛‘这就是我一直在等的’？

How much you know, it's interesting you mentioned just seeing that it's a mass market consumer behavior or or maybe like a future one to be sharing prompts this way. How much do you think for the average person whose only AI experience has been with ChatGPT that this is going to be a surprising new behavior that they have to sort of adjust to or something that feels very intuitive and obvious and like, wow, I've been waiting for this?

我希望它会很简单，毕竟这只是个小程序，有着常见的图形用户界面。我们都已经习惯使用这类应用，不需要学习新工具。说实话用命令行反而更难——你得琢磨该在这里粘贴文本吗？

I hope it will be easy because at the end of the day, it's just a mini app. It's just the app graphic user interface. So, it's something that we're all used to. You don't need to learn how to use these new tools. I'd argue it's harder to use a command line because you need to know, well, do I copy paste the text here?

是该在提示词旁边直接添加图片，还是稍后再加？这些操作太自由了，没有明确指引。但人人都懂怎么用APP。某种程度上，这类轻量封装的应用都曾火爆一时。

Do I add an image right here with this prompt, or do I add it later? It's too loose. There are no guidelines. But everyone knows how to use apps. And to a degree, a lot of these kind of thin wrappers blew up at some point.

比如Prisma和Lenza这类应用，功能简单到就是把照片变成头像或毕业纪念册风格。对，就是毕业纪念册那种。

Like Prisma was one of them or Lenza, where it was just like, change your photo into some avatar, some headshot apps. High school yearbook. High school yearbook. Yeah.

太关键了。

That's clutch.

但你们很多人都知道，它们很棒。不过话说回来，这类应用能流行起来是有原因的，而不仅仅是人们转发这个提示词。因为同样地，门槛太高了。每当动力不足时，这种程度的阻碍就会彻底扼杀我的热情。我早上醒来刷推特或Reddit，总能发现各种很酷的提示词。

But a lot of you know, they're awesome. But again, there's a reason why apps like that gain traction and not people just passing along this prompt. Because again, it's too high. Whenever the motivation is not too high, this amount of friction just kills all of my mojo. I wake up in the morning, I'm on Twitter or Reddit, I'm finding all these cool prompts.

我当时就想，我得试试。然后我就想，哦，复制粘贴。结果根本没用。哦，算了。我就把它抛在脑后了。

I'm like, I gotta try it. And then I'm like, Oh, copy paste. It didn't really work. Oh, whatever. I forgot about it.

所以我认为这至少是我们非常兴奋的一点。这不仅仅是关于Imagen提示词，还包括一些很酷的文本提示。比如人们会想出各种新奇玩意儿。像Chajipti PromGenius这样的Reddit子版块里有数百万人，我超爱这些。有时你能在里面发现些疯狂的东西。

So, that I think is something that at least we're super excited about. And it's not about just Imagen prompts, but also some cool text prompts. Like, people come up with all sorts of cool stuff. Are millions of people in the subreddits like Chajipti PromGenius, which I love those. Sometimes you can find some crazy stuff in it.

但要不是在那里发现，你根本不会知道这可能是使用Chezip茶的酷炫方式。比如说，有人做了个超棒的提示词来分析你的血液检查报告。但同样地，我现在完全不记得它在哪里以及怎么找到它。相比之下，我本可以直接从Wabi下载个小应用，把它放在健康文件夹里。

But you would never even know that this could be a cool way to use Chezip tea unless you found it there. Like, for example, someone made a fantastic prompt to analyze your blood work. But again, I don't even, at this point, remember where it was and how I'm gonna find it. Versus I could just download a mini app from Wabi and kind of keep it in my health folder.

在投资团队里，我们常说世界目前只拥有所需软件的1%，剩下的将在未来五年内建成。那么让我们举个例子，或者说如果我们要让有意义、有影响力的软件数量增长100倍，那会是什么景象。

On the investment team, we've said that the world has 1% of the software that it needs and that the rest is gonna be built in the next five years. So let's give an example or say more about what that looks like if we're 100 X ing the amount of meaningful or impactful software.

嗯，我不知道。我总是不由自主回想起YouTube最初给人的那种魔力，还有所有这些平台——那时一切都只关乎纯粹的创造力，有时甚至是些非常原始、古怪的东西，比如把家庭录像带随便传到TikTok上。我还记得我那些年轻朋友们对口型假唱各种音乐的样子，当时觉得既怪异又像在玩玩具。然后突然间它就变得超级火爆。我认为同样的事情也会发生在...至少我们希望Wabi也能出现类似的趋势，初期可能很多产品看起来像玩具或非常简单、甚至有点搞笑和天真。

Well, I don't know. I guess I'm always going back to how magical YouTube felt in the very beginning and all of these platforms where it was all really about just creativity and very raw, sometimes weird things like putting a home tape, whatever, home video online for TikTok. I still remember all my, you know, young, whatever, friends, younger kids lip syncing to different music and how weird it was and felt like a toy. And then all of a sudden it became really, really huge. And I think the same will happen with Or at least we hope that a similar trend will happen to Wabi, where in the beginning, maybe a lot of that will look like toys or something very simple, very kind of funny almost and innocent.

最终它们会发展成更大的平台。但如果你仔细想想，现在我们只是把应用当作软件。但如果我们可以把应用当作内容呢？如果我是TikTok上的健康或健身博主，也许我该发布些东西——比如我在Wabi上建的五个展示我健身方案的小应用。快来下载吧。

And then eventually can grow into a much larger platform. But I guess if you think about it, today we just treat apps as software. But what if apps, we could treat them as content? If I'm an health influencer or fitness influencer on TikTok, maybe I should put out, here are my five mini apps on Wabi I build that are kind of showcasing my fitness protocol. Get them.

或许可以通过某种方式将其变现。这可能是健身内容创作者制作更多实用内容的新途径。目前人们主要销售课程之类的东西，而我认为小型应用可能会更好。然后人们可以在社区评论区讨论这些内容。

And maybe there's a way to monetize it in some way. Maybe it's a way for that fitness creator to create more content that's now useful. Right now, people sell courses and stuff instead of that. I think a mini app could be much better. Then people can be talking about that in the community in the comments section.

再次强调，这是某种社区的开端。人们一起锻炼，一起做事。我认为我们将看到一种完全不同的软件类型，不仅仅是应用，也不只是固定不变的应用，而是更多内容、社区启动器、话题发起者和有趣的小工具。你能想象在Wabi平台上出现创作者阶层，一种专业阶层吗？

Again, this is a start of some community. People are working out together. People are doing something together. I do think we'll see just a completely different type of software, not just apps, not just stale fix apps, but more content, community starters, conversation starters, and just fun little toys. Do you imagine like a creator class, a kind of professional class on Wabi?

哦，百分百确定。你知道吗？是的。当然。我确实认为理想情况下这应该发生。

Oh, a 100. You know? Yes. Of course. I do believe that ideally this should happen.

如果我们真的将其视为YouTube，那可以说是最后的疆域。目前，创作者可以制作专业内容、视频、节目，可以写作，但他们仍然无法创造软件。

If if we're really thinking about it as YouTube, that's sort of the last frontier. At this point, creators can make their own professional content. They can make videos. They can make shows. They can write, but they still cannot create software.

这确实还没有实现。但任何人，特别是小众创作者，都应该能够免费为粉丝创造任何软件。这正是我非常非常期待看到的。

It's still really not happening. But anyone, and especially small niche creators, should be able to afford to create for free any software for their fans. And that's what I'm really, really looking forward to.

让我印象深刻的是，世界上最大的创作者MrBeast与粉丝之间有着如此紧密的联系。粉丝愿意为他做任何事。而他选择制作巧克力作为最佳变现方式。这感觉像是创作者可以提供另一种与粉丝建立更紧密关系的服务类型。

I've been struck that by the idea that MrBeast, the biggest creator in the world, has such a close connection with his fans. They do anything for him. Thing And that he makes is chocolate. Like, that's the thing that he chooses to do that seems like the best monetization. And it just feels like this is yet another sort of type of offering that creators can provide to have a closer relationship with their fan.

完全正确。如果你仔细想想，光是风格就很有意思。比如，我会很喜欢某些设计师开发的应用。因为我确信他们会打造非常漂亮的应用。我想看看这些应用。

Exactly. And if you think about it, just even the style. Like, I would love like, certain designers, I want their apps that they build. Because I'm sure they're gonna build very beautiful apps. And I wanna look at them.

即便功能相同，无论是番茄钟还是其他工具，我想要的正是他们独特的诠释。诸如此类。我认为存在太多不同的群体和细分领域。不该一切都只关乎变现。这本质上关乎不同的风格、不同的生活观和世界观。

And even if it's the same functionality, the same whatever, Pomodoro timer, but I want their take on it. And so on. I think there's so many different groups and niches. And it shouldn't all just be about monetizing. It's really just about different styles, different outlook on life, on the world.

对我来说这非常有趣。我是Reddit的重度用户，觉得它令人兴奋正是因为人们会围绕特定兴趣聚集。这在其他平台很少见。因此这也是我对此感到兴奋的原因。

And that is, to me, is very interesting. I'm a huge user of Reddit, and I find it very exciting because people just join around certain interests. And that doesn't happen on other platforms really that much. So that's something that I'm excited about here as well.

是的。从创作者角度看，我觉得有件奇怪的事——某种程度上我们都是内容创作者。最奇怪的是你往往并不真正知道效果。比如你能看到展示量，但不知道其中有多少是机器人，不知道有多少人真正在使用你发布的提示词、看完整个视频等等。

Yeah. I think from the creator perspective, one of the weird things about, and we're all kind of content creators in various ways and put out content. And one of the weird things about that I think is you often you don't really know. Like you see how many impressions it gets, but you don't know if those are bots. You don't know how many people are actually like using the prompt you posted or watching the full video or whatever.

我认为这将超越变现层面——在Lobby这个功能里，你能看到别人用你写的提示词、做的应用或开发的东西实现了什么，这非常酷。不仅对现有创作者（他们显然想这么做），也对那些现在不是创作者但有绝妙点子、却无法自己开发移动应用并上架分发的人。

And I think that is going to be like even beyond monetization, that part of Lobby where like you can see what someone else has done or created or accomplished or whatever with the prompt you wrote or the app you made or the thing that you developed will be incredibly cool, not only for existing creators, for who it's really obvious I want to do this, but also for people who are not creators today but who have really interesting ideas and just like no way to build their own mobile app, get it approved in the app store, ship it, like distribute it, that whole type of thing.

没错。还会涌现出什么新型创作者呢？这就是为什么在我们的风格中，部分传播内容试图带点早期互联网的怀旧感——保持怪异本色。现在很多视频平台都过度精致商业化，你甚至看不到朋友的内容了。

Yeah. Like what other new class of creators could be? That's why in our style, like in some of our communications, we're also trying to, I guess, we're a bit nostalgic about those early days of the internet and just being weird and staying weird. Right now, a lot of the video platforms are very polished and very commercial. You don't even see your friends anymore.

你看不到太多怪异内容了，只有精心策划的精致作品。但借助小程序和软件，我们正进入一个充满各种怪异迷人小程序的新时代——这些在应用商店里永远不可能存在，因为它们商业价值不够。

You don't see that much weird content. You just see very curated, polished stuff. But with mini apps, with software, I guess we're just entering this new era of just tons of really weird and fascinating new mini apps that could never exist because they wouldn't be enough of a business on the App Store.

确实。

Right.

好的。说到早期，我们是否应该谈谈Replica以及你在社区中的历史？

Right. Well, speaking of the early days, should we talk a bit about Replica and kind of your history in the community?

是的。

Yeah.

所以在这个领域其他人还没开始之前，你已经是真正的先驱了。你提到2012年。也许可以谈谈你如何看待这个你参与创建的领域，以及它后来的发展演变。

So you were a true pioneer in the space before everyone else was doing it. You mentioned 2012. Maybe just talk about your reflections of how that category as you helped create it and then how it's evolved.

它确实发展了很多。简直难以置信。说来有趣，我们最近和Replica的一位早期员工聊天时还在说，虽然我们当时坚信这事能成，但当它真的发生时我们还是感到非常惊讶。那种感觉至今仍像魔法一样神奇。

It definitely evolved. Haven't noticed. It's really crazy. Well, it's wild because we were thinking about it recently, just talking to one of the early employees of Replica, that we had a very strong belief that it would happen, but we still were so surprised when it actually happened, I guess. It just still felt like complete magic.

对我来说，我进入这个领域是因为2012年我朋友在Google DeepMind工作。他向我介绍了word2vec，这是第一种能将词语转化为向量并真正处理语言的技术。在那之前，语言对计算机来说几乎是个完全无法触及的领域。突然间一切都变了。而我从小就读维特根斯坦。

For me, I got into it because my friend worked at Google DeepMind in 2012. And so, he came to me to tell me about word2vec and kind of the first technology to translate words into vectors and to be able to actually do something with words. Before that, language was just this whole separate almost thing that computers could not interact with. But now all of a sudden they could. And to me, I grew up reading Wittgenstein.

对我来说，语言的界限就是我世界的界限。所以当时觉得，如果计算机能掌握语言，它们就能理解世界。这才是真正的人工智能未来。

So, me, was like, well, the limits of the language are the limits of my world. So, I felt like, oh, well, that's insane. If the computers learn language, then they'll learn about the world. They'll be truly smart. That is the future of artificial intelligence.

那时ImageNet刚刚发布。我们看到各种图像识别的新模型层出不穷。于是我们觉得，必须创办一家专注于语言模型和对话生成的公司。但当时完全没有相关论文，也没有任何已知算法或现成模型。

And so, that's also ImageNet just came out. So, we saw all these new models around image recognition. And we felt like, well, we gotta start a company focused on language models, focused on dialogue generation. But of course, there were no papers around it at all. And no known algorithms or anything built models.

那时候真的是一无所有。所以我们只是专注于开发一些技术来构建聊天机器人，尝试围绕这个构建一些语言模型。当然，2015年谷歌的Cochlear团队发表了第一篇论文，展示了首个应用于对话生成的深度学习模型。他们当时没有发布任何模型，所以我们只能研读论文，观察那些明显经过筛选的结果，并尝试复现。

Really back then, there was nothing. So, we're just focused on building some technology to build chatbots using whatever the trying to build some language models around that. And then of course, 2015, the first paper came out of Google by Cochlear that actually showed off the first deep learning model applied to dialogue generation. And they didn't publish any models back then. So, it was all about just kind of reading the paper and seeing some of the obviously cherry picked results and trying to replicate that.

2015年8月看到那篇论文后，我们基本上把公司所有资源都投入了模型开发。我们说：'好吧，就是它了，转折点就在眼前。我们必须全力构建这些语言模型，推出首个生成式AI聊天机器人产品。'后来我们确实通过Replica实现了，但转折点并非近在咫尺——实际上花了七年时间。

And when we saw that in August 2015, we just basically put everything we had at the company on building those models. We said, okay, well, this is it. This is right on the corner. We need to really focus on building these language models, getting the first generative AI product chatbot out there, which we did with Replica, but it wasn't around the corner. It was like seven years away.

我们只能坚持足够长的时间，直到第一批Transformer模型问世。接下来具有魔力的时刻是谷歌的MENA论文提出的首个Transformer模型。记得2020年，OpenAI邀请我们提前参观GPT-3（当时API尚未发布），成为他们首批GPT-3 API合作伙伴。我们去办公室时，当时负责合作关系的Mira和Sam向我们展示了GPT-3。

And then we just had to survive for long enough to actually get to the first transformer models. And then, course, think the next magical moment was the MENA paper, also out of Google with the first transformer model. And then I remember in 2020, we got invited by OpenAI to go see GPT-three before API, to partner up with them to be one of the first partners for GPT-three API to launch. So, we came to the office and Mira, who back then was actually leading partnerships. And Sam showed us GPT-three.

我记得当时完全被震撼了，简直不可思议。在此之前，每个模型都需要专门训练。如果你想训练对话模型，就必须准备海量聊天数据来训练。

And I remember that was just I was floored. It was insane. Just to before that, if you think about it, we had to train every model. We had to create this specific dataset. If you wanted to train a dialogue model, you'd have to have tons of chat data, and you would train the model.

那些模型只能进行对话。但GPT-3是首个零样本/少样本模型，可以处理任何任务。它不仅能用对话格式回应，你还可以让它'用山姆·奥特曼的风格写条推特'或'翻译这段话'，它都能做到。这种感觉简直像魔法一样。

And the model could only do dialogue. But with GPT-three, it was the first kind of zero shot, few shot model where it could do anything. It didn't just have to respond in a dialogue format. You could tell it, well, write a tweet like Sam Altman or translate, and it would do that. And so, that felt absolutely magical.

我们成为OpenAI GPT-3 API的首批合作伙伴时，情况还很疯狂——现在Greg Brockman还在Slack频道里亲自为我们训练模型，回想起来感觉太不可思议了。我们简直是在逆向工程学校进修。

And we were one of the first partners of OpenAI, GPT-three API. It was still crazy because we still have a Slack channel where Greg Brockman is training a model for us, which now feels just such a Amazing. We're in reverse school.

你们现在还保留着那个模型吗？

You still have the model?

回想起来，那应该是个经过精细调校的达芬奇复制品，但我们是API调用量最大的客户，因为当时我们是市场上唯一真正使用生成式AI的聊天机器人。现在想想很不可思议，但那时所有大公司都因为微软那次事件而不敢推出生成式AI产品——那个聊天机器人在一小时内就变成了纳粹分子。所以其他公司都吓得不敢涉足，我们因此独占了市场很长时间，直到OpenAI推出ChatGPT彻底改写了历史。

Think it was a fine tuned da Vinci for replica, but we were the biggest customer in terms of API calls because we were the only chatbot available in the market that actually used generative AI. And now it's weird to think about it, but back then, all the big companies were scared to put out generative AI products because Microsoft tie happened. And it turned into some Nazi chatbot in literally an hour. And so, everyone else was too scared to put them out there. So, we were sort of the only ones for so, so long until OpenAI had put out their chattypete and kinda changed history with that, of course.

但最疯狂的是，在那之前我们实际上垄断了所有平台'AI'、'聊天机器人'、'人工智能'这些关键词。我们还持有数百个.ai域名，后来我以为它们都过期了，因为觉得'唉，反正没人要这些'。这些域名甚至没出现在任何交易平台上。最近我去查了下还有哪些普通词汇的.ai域名可用——

But it was crazy because before that, we literally owned all the keywords like AI, chatbot, artificial intelligence on every single platform. And then we also owned like hundreds of .ai domains, which I just thought expired because I felt like, ugh. Mean, no one wants them. They're not even on any of the domain platforms. And then recently I went to see what .ai domains are still available that are just regular words.

结果可用的只有vomit.ai和irac.ai这种。当时就想'天啊，这也太糟心了'。正因为如此，给Wabi起名特别困难。

And the only words that are available are like vomit.ai and irac.ai. Was like, Oh my God, this is so upsetting. Naming Wabi, because of that, was pretty hard.

是啊。

Yeah.

这就是我视角下的发展历程。你给我们讲过——

So that's kinda the evolution from my perspective. You told us a

晚餐时你提到在OpenAI办公室的那段经历。能聊聊你们在那里办公时的情形吗？比如工作氛围如何？团队当时有什么样的期待？

story at dinner about the time that you'd spent in the OpenAI office. Maybe talk a little bit about that when you guys were working out of there, what it was like, what the energy was like, what were the expectations of the team?

我想是的。OpenAI最初是从YC孵化出来的，当时叫YC Research。他们有几个研究小组——记得有个研究UBI的，有个研究AI的，还有其他几个。由于我们是YC系公司，他们非常慷慨地允许我们进驻。那时候他们的总部还设在Greg的公寓里。

I think that yeah. So when when OpenAI started was kind of out of YC. It was YC research. So they were doing a few I guess you remember, they were doing a few different research groups, one on UBI, one on AI, some other ones. And so because we're a YC company and they let us come, they were very generous with their time, and they would let us come to, back then, Greg's apartment where they were headquartered, I would say.

他们允许我们和其他几家在YC从事AI的公司一起前去提问、向他们学习并交流经验，讨论我们正在构建的项目。于是我们来到那间公寓，把所有问题都问了个遍。通常在场的有Ilya、Andre和其他一些人。那感觉简直不可思议——我们当然既紧张又兴奋，对能获得这样的机会充满感激。

And they would let us come with a couple other companies that were doing AI at YC to ask questions, learn from them, and just talk, maybe exchange experience on what we're building. So, we would come to that apartment and ask all the questions. Usually, was Ilya and Andre and some other people. And that was absolutely incredible. We were of course absolutely starstruck and super happy to be there, just so grateful for the opportunity.

后来他们搬去了办公室，我们也跟着去。但很快他们就停止了语言模型的研究。这让我们非常沮丧，因为我们很想继续参与，但他们已不愿讨论任何语言模型的话题，毕竟没人真正在研究这个了。这让我们感觉很怪异，因为我们如此坚定地相信语言模型的未来，而他们却完全转向了电子游戏领域——那些重建虚拟世界、强化学习智能体等有趣的方向。最初只有Alec Rutte还在坚持语言模型研究，我们才有机会向他请教。

And then they moved to their office and we would go there as well. And very quickly, they stopped working on language models. And we were very upset because we really wanted to continue going there, but they didn't want to talk about any language models because no one was really working on them. And that made us feel very strange because we were so set on continuing and believing in language models, but they completely moved away to shift it to playing video games and all of these kind of agents kind of rebuilding the worlds and agents in those worlds reinforcement learning for that and all these other interesting things. And I guess the only person for in the beginning, it was kind of Alec Rutte for continued to work on language models, so we had an opportunity to ask him some questions.

现在回想起来确实很疯狂——当年我们去OpenAI时，他们就已经是明星团队了。但当时感觉那只是个试图做些有趣研究的小型团队。如今看到它成为世界顶级公司，这种感觉实在超乎想象。

But yeah, of course, it's just wild to think that because when we were going to open air, of course, they were superstars even back then. But still, it felt like such a small kinda research group that is trying to do something interesting. Of course, now to see it become one of the biggest companies in the world is absolutely wild.

有意思的是，Andre最近在播客里说整个电子游戏方向其实是个错误的研究路线，他们本应坚持语言模型领域。你们当初是对的。

Well, it's interesting because Andre said on the recent pod that the entire video game's direction was an incorrect direction. It was incorrect research direction, and they probably should have stuck with language. You guys were right.

但正确与否不是全部，关键还要看执行力。我们确实在Replica项目上全力投入了语言模型开发，但后来需要更多资金支持时，经过长期努力后，我们最终转向了营收最大化——某种程度上是因为有些胆怯了。当时我们没勇气直接说‘我们需要两千万来打造这个模型’。

It's a well, being right is not always you gotta be right but also execute. I think to a degree, we we were really invested with Replica in building language models. But at some point, we just required a lot more capital to do that. And after working on that for so long, at that point, we just got really into just revenue maximization at some point because a little bit got maybe scared. We're like, Well, we didn't have the balls to say, Okay, well, we need 20,000,000 and we'll build that model.

尽管在MENA论文后我们内部确实讨论过这个问题。要做成Replica这样的项目，本需要更多资金——我们只融了1100万美元，现在想来这笔钱至今还在账户里。虽然经过多年经营建立了可观业务，但事后看来这是个深刻教训：虽然灵活应变和利润导向很重要，但可能会因此错过划时代的机遇。

Even though that was our discussion internally right after MENA paper and so on. You just need to get a lot more money. If you think about it with Replica, we only raised $11,000,000 and I guess it's still all in the bank. And we went from many, many years and built a big business. But of course, this is in hindsight a very interesting lesson that sometimes being very nimble and very kind of scrappy and very profit oriented is great, but you can miss out on almost like a generational chance.

即便我们当时押注于此，也未必能成功。我从不把自己和那些真正做成这件事的天才相提并论——我们可能本就不是合适人选。但这个教训依然成立：有时候就该孤注一掷。

And I'm not saying even if we bet on it, maybe we would've not built it. I would never compare myself to the geniuses that actually did it. We probably were not the right people anyway. But still, lessons I think still stands. Sometimes you need to sort of go big or go home.

在当前环境下没有胆量去做那件事，我认为你就要承担后果。

And not having the balls to do that, especially in this current environment, I think you can suffer the consequences. One of the

我们消费者团队常说，消费者行为，尤其是新行为，是无法预测的，只能观察。但你似乎是少数例外，因为你总能预判消费者行为。你对很多趋势都把握得特别早。每次交谈时，你不仅关注当下，还能预见下一步发展方向。

things we say on the consumer team is consumer behavior, especially new behavior, cannot be predicted. It can only be observed. I think you are actually one of the few people that is not true for because you seem to be able to predict consumer behavior. Like you've been so early to a number of these things. And I think just every time we talk to you, you seem to have an eye on not only like what's going on today but like what the next thing should be.

这种敏锐度是怎么培养的？相信很多人都很好奇。

How did you develop that sense, I guess? I'm sure a lot of people would be curious to know. I don't know if

我不确定自己是否真有这种天赋。我只有几个坚信不疑的想法，然后就会深挖到底。不过我的记者背景确实有影响——我从小梦想成为记者。

I have that sense. I only have like a couple ideas, but I really believe in them deeply. Then I go really deep down the rabbit hole. I start thinking about it. But I do think that I do background have in journalism and pretty much the whole I grew up dreaming of being a journalist.

12岁就在报社打工，后来还做过调查记者。这份工作最吸引我的是能深入接触不同人群，真正了解他们的生活。这需要极强的共情力和好奇心。而现在AI领域的情况恰恰相反——

My first job was 12 years old, working in a newspaper. I was an investigative journal reporter for a while. And the one thing I loved about is being able to go and talk to people and to really, really try to get to know them and live their lives. And so for that, you sort of have to have a lot of empathy and curiosity about people. And I think today what I'm seeing with AI especially, it's being built by a very specific type of personality.

主导者多是天才型人物：物理学家、数学家这些算法与科学突破的专家。但他们往往缺乏人文关怀。而我正好相反——

It's oftentimes these savants, these like brilliant geniuses, physicists, mathematicians. And they're insane in building algorithms and math and kind of scientific breakthroughs. But they usually lack on the human empathy side. That's just kind of how it is. Meanwhile, I'm the opposite.

作为物理学家家庭里的笨小孩，总被说'你怎么就不能聪明点去学物理'。但我就是对人性充满兴趣。看我妈妈学Reddit复制粘贴指令的样子，那些对她来说完全是外星操作。

I'm a dumb dumb when it comes to Coming from a family of physicists, they were always like, Oh my God. Like, why can't you be smart and also go study physics? But I couldn't. But at the same time, I'm just really interested in the human condition and what people are doing. And just seeing my mom trying to understand how to copy paste a prompt from Reddit, it was such a foreign idea for her, to her.

我意识到我妈妈对电脑很在行。她总是拿着手机，总是开着笔记本电脑。但不知为何她就是搞不定这个，这界面实在不够友好。

And I realized my mom is very savvy with computers. She's always on her phone. She's always on her laptop. But somehow she can't crack that. This is just not user friendly enough.

某种程度上理解这些概念，我认为正是这些让我们想出了Wabi的点子。Replica也是如此——四处旅行与人交谈时，看到那么多孤独的存在，看到人们多么渴望能向他人倾诉自己的遭遇，而愿意倾听的人却如此稀少。我突然意识到，也许今天的AI还不擅长对话，但它可以倾听，这对世界上数百万人来说可能是革命性的突破。所以我觉得这让我能以略微不同的视角看待同一个问题。

And kind of understanding those concepts, I think, was really what led us come up with the idea for Wabi. And the same goes for Replica, just traveling around and talking to people and seeing how much loneliness there is and how much people just wanna be able to tell someone what they're going through and how few people are able to listen. And I think that realization that maybe an AI can't talk well today, but it could listen, That that could be a groundbreaking thing for millions in the world. So, I think this is kind of what just allows me to have a slightly different angle at the same problem.

如果要推测硬件未来的发展，五到十年后的人机交互会是什么形态？我们将如何与这些应用程序互动？

If you wanted to speculate on the future of like hardware, what is sort of that Hardware. Just like five, ten years, what is gonna be the interaction? How are we going to be interacting with these applications?

我对硬件确实有些想法，虽然我完全不是硬件专家，但我和大家一样都是硬件使用者，所以我觉得自己有发言权。我认为这个领域的开发者存在一个巨大的思维陷阱，他们总觉得语音是主要交互方式，是终极交互方案。这大概是因为他们总在想着电影《她》，但理解方式有偏差，完全没抓住电影的核心。

I do have a few ideas around hardware, and I'm not a hardware person at all, but I'm a hardware user like all of us. So I get to have opinions, I think. I think there's a huge mind trap that exists among builders in the space where they somehow think that voice is the main interface. It's like the best ultimate interface. And I think that's because they are somehow thinking about the movie Her all the time, but not in the right way and kind of missing the whole point of the movie Her.

没错，那部电影里语音交互之所以惊艳，是因为斯嘉丽·约翰逊饰演的萨曼莎总在他耳边喘息。这招确实管用，你甚至不需要说话——

That, yes, voice was amazing in that movie because it was Samantha Johansson constantly heavy breathing his ear. And that totally worked. You didn't even need to say

任何人。在

anyone. In

我的场景里，这就是语音交互奏效的原因。但仔细想想，语音界面实在太不完善了：当伴侣在床上睡觉时不能用，在嘈杂环境中不能用，在办公室也不能用。

my case, that's why that worked. But if you really think about voice interfaces, they're just so imperfect. You can't use that device if you're laying in a bed with someone who's sleeping. You can't use it in a crowded space. You can't use it at the office.

你没法用，就算四处走动时也很奇怪。突然间你就把所有赌注都押上了。很多人试图打造纯语音设备。在我看来完全错了。它可以成为与电脑互动的绝佳辅助方式，但如今每台Alexa设备，约75%都配备了屏幕出货。

You can't use it Even walking around, it's a little bit weird. And so, all of a sudden, you're betting everything. There's a lot of people trying to build voice only devices. In my case, completely wrong. It can be a fantastic extra way to interact with the computer, but every single Alexa right now, like 75% of them are being shipped with a screen.

因为即便我在做饭时设个定时器——这个经典的语音使用场景——即便这样，抱歉，我还是需要看到计时器。我可不想每秒都问'还剩多久？'这太奇怪了。所以我认为最大的错误就是推出这些无屏设备。我热爱屏幕。

Because even if I'm setting a timer when I'm cooking, the proverbial voice use case, even then, sorry, I need to see the timer. I'm not gonna be asking, Hey, how long is this left every second? This is just strange. And so, I think this is kind of the biggest mistake in my view is trying to ship these screen less devices. I love screens.

我认为语音根本无法解决发现性和生产力问题。最糟糕的就是语音和iPhone搭配时朗读通知和短信。我简直想说'求你别念了'。太可怕了，想关掉都很难。

I think there's no way with voice to solve for discovery, for productivity. I would hate if The worst thing with voice and the iPhone is reading out notifications, text messages that are coming. I'm like, please shut up. It's horrible. It's very hard to listen to turn it off.

如果只是为了生产力，你肯定不希望信息被大声朗读出来，因为这是种极低效的信息输入方式。总之，这在我看来是最大的错误——我绝不会做无屏设备。实际上我会优先考虑屏幕。但AI设备的关键不在于语音驱动，而是打造以AI为首要的操作系统。

If this was just being You want productivity, but you don't want it to be read out loud in your ear because this is just this very slow way of getting information in brain. So, anyways, I think this is kind of the biggest mistake I would not ever make a screenless device. In fact, I would make it very much screen first device. But I do believe that the AI device is not about a voice driven thing. It's more about building this AI first operating system.

让所有模型都能本地运行。这里有很多可探索的空间。打造真正以AI为核心的智能手机，不是现在这种以CPU为主的硬件，而是未来那种能本地运行模型的硬件，配合完全不同于当前的操作系统——没有固定应用，能随时为你创建和修改软件，个性化程度远超现有水平。是的，这种设备绝对有存在空间。

Having all the models run locally as well. I think that there's a lot in that. Building truly an AI first smartphone, and not today kind of more CPU driven whatever hardware, but more the hardware of the future where there are models that can run locally with the operating system is super different from what it is today with no fixed apps, with being able to change and create software on the go for you with the level of personalization that goes a lot deeper than what it is today. Yeah. I think that there is definitely space for a device like that.

现在AI只是手机上的一个应用，这显然不该是它的归宿。

Right now, you know, AI is just an app on your phone. It should not be that way, I guess.

这是个完美的收尾话题。尤金妮，非常感谢你参加播客。

And it's a great note to end on. Eugenie, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

如果你喜欢本期节目，请务必点赞、评论、订阅、给我们评分或写评论，并与亲朋好友分享。更多节目内容请前往YouTube、Apple Podcasts和Spotify平台。在X平台上关注我们@a16z，并订阅我们的Substack专栏a16z.substack.com。再次感谢收听，我们下期节目再见。温馨提示：此处内容仅供信息参考，不应视为法律、商业、税务或投资建议，也不应用于评估任何投资或证券，且不针对任何a16z基金的现有或潜在投资者。

If you liked this episode, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, and share it with your friends and family. For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. Follow us on X at a sixteen z, and subscribe to our Substack at a sixteen z dot substack dot com. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode. As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal business, tax, or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a sixteen z fund.

请注意，a16z及其关联机构可能持有本播客讨论中提及公司的投资。更多详情（包括我们的投资链接）请参见a16z.com/disclosures。

Please note that a sixteen z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this podcast. For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a 16z.com forward slash disclosures.