哈佛教授评泰勒·斯威夫特新专辑

ABC Listen，播客、广播、新闻、音乐等一应俱全。

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

大家好，我是布雷特·沃辛顿，在《当下政治》播客中暂代PK。我将携手ABC最优秀的政治评论员们，为您带来最新动态并解读其实际影响。比如我，雅各布·格里伯。

Hi. I'm Brett Worthington, and I'm filling in for PK on the Politics Now podcast. And I'll be joined by the ABC's best political minds to bring you the latest news and to break down what it actually means for you. People like Me, Jacob Grieber.

我，拉夫·爱泼斯坦。

Me, Raf Epstein.

我，克劳迪娅·朗。

Me, Claudia Long.

我，大卫·斯皮尔斯。

Me, David Spears.

还有我，梅丽莎·克拉克，每周四代替弗兰·凯利主持政党会议室环节。

And me, Melissa Clark, in the chair for Fran Kelly for the party room every Thursday.

欢迎收听《当下政治》，您可通过ABC Listen应用收听。

So join me on politics now. You can hear it on the ABC listen app.

上次她发布新专辑时，首周销量或下载量就超过了200万张。那么这次泰勒·斯威夫特能否凭借万众期待的《The Life of a Showgirl》打破这个纪录呢？是什么让她成为有史以来最成功的艺人之一？今天，我们将与哈佛大学教授探讨为何研究'斯威夫特狂热'是个非常有价值的话题。我是萨姆·霍利，在悉尼加迪加尔土地上为您播报。

Last time she put out a new album, more than 2,000,000 copies were sold or downloaded in the first week. So can Taylor Swift beat that this time with the much anticipated release of The Life of a Showgirl? And what is it that's made her one of the most successful artists of all time? Today, we chat to a Harvard University professor about why studying swift mania is a very worthy topic. I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal Land in Sydney.

这里是ABC每日新闻。全球最伟大的艺术家正步入她破纪录的时代。那是我的偶像吗？你最喜欢哪首歌？每一首都爱。

This is ABC News Daily. The biggest artist in the world enters her record breaking era. Is that my idol? What was your favorite song? All of them.

你看不到什么？

What can't you see?

她就像独一无二的存在。泰勒·斯威夫特就是音乐产业本身。

She's just like unlike any other. Like, Taylor Swift is the music industry.

泰勒·斯威夫特宣布了她的第十二张录音室专辑《The Life of a Showgirl》，这令粉丝们陷入疯狂。

Taylor Swift has announced her twelfth studio album, The Life of a Showgirl, and it sent fans into overdrive.

你好，我是斯蒂芬妮·伯特。哈佛大学英语系教授，我撰写关于诗歌的著作、出版诗集，也研究流行音乐。新书名为《泰勒的版本》，正是关于泰勒·斯威夫特的研究。

Hello there. I'm Stephanie Burt. I am a professor of English at Harvard University, and I write books about poetry and books of poetry and books about pop music. And the new one is called Taylor's Version, and it is about Taylor Swift.

斯蒂芬妮，对某些人来说这可能显得微不足道，但关于泰勒·斯威夫特如何成为音乐史上最闪耀的名字，确实有太多值得探讨之处。对吧？虽然当年人们也曾为披头士乐队疯狂尖叫。

Stephanie, it might seem trivial to some, but there really is a lot to be said about how Taylor Swift has managed to become, well, the biggest name in music ever. Right? That's true, isn't it? Although people used to scream the house down, of course, for the Beatles.

衡量不同时期的知名度相当具有挑战性，但她无疑名列前茅，而且由于诸多原因，她现在是音乐界最耀眼的明星。其中一个原因就是她的歌曲实在太棒了。嗯。当然，还有其他许多因素。任何现象级的成功从来都不是单一原因造就的。

Measuring fame across periods is quite challenging, but she's certainly up there, and she's the biggest name in music right now for a lot of reasons. One of which is that the songs are so darn good. Mhmm. You know, there are lot of other reasons too. Nothing this big ever happens for just one reason.

是啊。

Yeah.

但如果这些歌曲没能深入人心、打动听众，没能让人们兴奋地群发消息问朋友'你听过这首歌吗'，她绝不可能达到今天的地位。

But if those songs didn't stay with people and move people and cause people to text all their friends and say, have you heard this? She would not have gotten where she is.

说到这个，你可是泰勒·斯威夫特专家啊。你甚至在哈佛大学开设过名为《泰勒·斯威夫特与她的世界》的课程，这门课本身就成了爆款对吧？我是说这门课。

Well, you are, of course, a Taylor Swift expert. You've even hosted a class at Harvard called Taylor Swift and Her World, which was in itself a massive hit, wasn't it? The class, I mean.

确实如此。课程非常有趣，那是我教过规模最大的班级，估计也会是哈佛有史以来最大规模的课程——不过这挺好的。没错。

It was. It was a lot of fun. It was the largest class I've ever taught. I suspect it's the largest class they ever will teach, which is fine. Yeah.

我原本设想的是个小研讨会，大概12到18个铁杆粉丝围坐在大木桌旁，我们一起聆听歌曲、解析作品、分享见解，然后协助彼此完成相关写作。结果来了几百号人，我们不得不启用阶梯教室和三角钢琴，还聘了好几位助教，场面相当壮观。

And I expected a seminar. I expected, 12 or 18 Swifties around a big wooden table, and we would just listen to the songs and take apart the songs and share what we knew and then help one another write about it. And then it turned out we had a couple 100 people and we had a lecture hall and a grand piano and we had to hire a bunch of teaching assistants and it was pretty big.

确实了不起。尤其考虑到当时还有人质疑这个主题是否配得上哈佛的学术殿堂。你是怎么说服他们泰勒·斯威夫特值得哈佛这样对待的？

Yeah. Incredible also because I guess at the time, people were questioning whether it was a Harvard worthy topic. So how did you convince them that Taylor Swift was worth the Harvard treatment?

嗯，我不确定是否说服了所有质疑者。有些人只是势利又性别歧视，他们大可以滚得远远的。但也有人质疑这些材料是否足够有分量或文学性。而答案是，英语系存在的价值之一正是连接当下与过去。所以这当然是一门关于泰勒的课程。

Well, I don't know if I convinced all the doubters. Some of them were just being snobby and sexist and they can just f off into the sun. But some of them did wonder whether the material was substantial enough or literary enough. And the answer is that one of the things that makes it worth having English departments is that we connect the present to the past. And so of course, it was a course about Taylor.

如果我不认为她的作品在美学上有深度、值得持续钻研，我就不会教授或撰写相关文章。但这同时也是关于杰出小说家薇拉·凯瑟的课程。我们读了她两部作品，读了我最爱的音乐题材小说——詹姆斯·韦尔登·约翰逊的《一个前黑人的自传》，还读了我最钟爱的亚历山大·蒲柏诗作《致阿布斯诺医生书》。

If I didn't think her work was aesthetically deep and worthy of sustained scrutiny, I wouldn't be teaching it or writing about it. But it was also a course on the wonderful novelist Willa Cather. We read two of her books. We read one of my favorite music novels, James Weldon Johnson's Autobiography of an Ex Colored Man. We read my favorite Alexander Pope poem, Epistle to Doctor.

这首创作于十八世纪初的诗属于不同体裁，采用十八世纪的双行体，但探讨的主题与泰勒所写的如出一辙——当所有人都想从你身上分一杯羹时的感受；当因名声太盛而难以分辨朋友真伪时的心境；因直言不讳遭受攻击时的体会；如何感恩将你培养至此的父母；如何不显傲慢地表达对现状的感激；如何区分自己真正想做的事与他人希望你做的事。这是首非常诙谐的诗，我希望——也相信——至少那些冲着'什么是好例子？你只能靠自己孩子'来听课的人...

Arbuthnot, which is from the early eighteenth century. It's in a different genre. It is written in eighteenth century couplets, but it is very much about the things and the moods and the feelings that Taylor writes about, which is how it feels when everybody wants a piece of you, when it's hard to tell whether your friends are your real friends because you're so famous, what it feels like when you get attacked for saying what you think, how to thank the parents who brought you there, how to show your gratitude for being where you are without seeming arrogant, how to distinguish what you really want to do from what other people want you to do. And it's a very funny poem, and I hope and I think that at least some of the people who showed up for what's a good example? You're on your own kid.

这首歌在我看来是她最伟大的作品之一——他们结课时不仅对《你只能靠自己孩子》的喜爱有增无减，还成为了亚历山大·蒲柏的粉丝。

Which, you know, to me is one of her great songs, came away from the class not only loving You're On Your Own Kid at least as much as they did when they started the class, but also becoming fans of Alexander Pope.

好的。本周末音乐界的焦点自然是斯蒂芬妮的新专辑《秀场女孩的一生》。你认为这些歌曲会带来什么？

Alright. Well, this weekend, of course, Stephanie, the talk of the music world will be her newest album, the life of a showgirl. What do you think we should expect from these songs?

我认为我们可以期待充满激情的作品。

So I think we should expect excitement.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为我们应该期待一些适合舞池的流畅合成器音乐。而且我觉得它会比1989年以来的任何作品都更像1989年的风格。我认为这会非常有趣，但同时也会像她最好的派对歌曲那样带有内省的特质。

I think we should expect slick dance floor worthy synthesizer stuff. And I think it's gonna sound more like 1989 than like anything she's done since 1989. And I think it's gonna be a lot of fun, but I also think it's gonna be introspective in the way that her best party songs are also introspective.

好吧。当然，斯蒂芬妮，围绕这张专辑的营销手段堪称无与伦比。她是在未婚夫特拉维斯·凯尔西的播客上宣布这张新专辑的。

Alright. Well, the marketing, of course, around this, Stephanie, it has been second to none. She announced this new album on her fiance Travis Kelce's podcast.

我觉得泰勒带来了一点新花样。新花样。耶。

I think Taylor has a little bit of new new. New new. Yay.

这是我的全新专辑。叫做《秀场女孩的生活》。这本身就是一个高明的策略，不是吗？

This is my brand new album. It's called the life of a showgirl. That's a bit of a master play in itself, isn't it?

哦，没错。她非常擅长驾驭宣传的世界。当她宣布和特拉维斯订婚时，你可能记得Instagram帖子写道：你的英语老师要嫁给体育老师了——作为英语老师，我简直爱死这个文案了。但她在其他采访中也说过，如果无法以创作歌手或流行巨星的身份谋生，她会从事市场营销和公关工作，因为她确实擅长这个。我个人非常欣赏她懂得如何为那些才华横溢的创作人应有的作品找到能量并获得支持。

Oh, yeah. She's very good at figuring out the world of publicity. When she did the announcement that she and Travis were getting engaged, you may remember the Instagram post said, your English teacher is marrying your gym teacher, which as an English teacher, I loved so much. But she has said in other interviews that if she were not able to make a life for herself as a songwriter or as a pop star, she would be in marketing and publicity because frankly, she's good at that. And I, for one, love seeing her understand how to find the energy and get the support for those songs that a songwriter of that caliber deserves.

作为一个也喜欢那些不情愿或常常不擅长自我营销的创作歌手的人，我真的很欣赏她的做法，而且她做得非常出色。

Speaking as someone who's also a fan of songwriters who have been unwilling or often unable to market themselves and find that audience that way. I I love to see what she's doing, and she's very good at it.

好吧。我们不妨深入探讨泰勒·斯威夫特过去二十年的成就，因为她确实是从很小就开始职业生涯，对吧？她14岁出道，16岁发行首张专辑。斯蒂芬妮，你认为她当时就有后来让她如此成功的蓝图吗？

Alright. Well, why don't we delve into what Taylor Swift has managed to achieve over the past twenty years because she did start her career when she was really young, wasn't she? She was 14. Her first album came out when she was 16. Do you think, Stephanie, she had the blueprint for what was going to make her so wildly successful back then?

恐怕我不得不说同意

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to say yes and

不。嗯。

no. Mhmm.

因为，老实说，亚历山大·蒲柏的类比很有启发性。她知道自己是那么优秀。她明白所有那些与吉他共度的时光，真正指引她成为可能成为的创作者。这部分归功于她懂得如何寻求并获取帮助，以及如何与人合作。但她当时知道自己能到达那个高度吗？

Because, again, honestly, the Alexander Pope analogy is instructive. She knew she was that good. She knew that all those hours that she spent with her guitar were really showing her how to be the writer she could be. And that's partly because she knew how to ask for help and get help, and how to work with people. Now did she know she was gonna get there?

不。她对此有足够的清醒认知。如果你看过《无畏之旅》纪录片——关于她的无畏时期和那次巡演——她就明白自己不能指望这种名气水平会持续，更不用说增长了。她太清醒了，不会期待或确信任何美好事物能永恒。但她确实让许多美好延续了下来。

No. She has too much sense for that. If you watch the Journey to Fearless documentary, which is about her fearless era and that tour, she knew that she couldn't expect her level of fame to last, let alone increase. She has too much sense to expect or feel certain that anything good can last. But she's been able to make a lot of good things last.

她不断挑战自己作为创作者和表演者的极限。这部分是因为伟大艺术家本就如此，也因为她更换了合作者。但确实，没人能预知她的发展轨迹，不过显然早在出道初期，她就知道自己才华横溢。

She's been able to challenge herself as a writer and as a performer. And that's partly just because that's what great artists do. It's also because she has switched up collaborators. But yeah, I don't think anyone could have known the trajectory she'd take, but I think it's clear that as early as debut, she knew she was good.

好吧。那么，斯蒂芬妮，这就是她赢得如此多粉丝和支持者的原因。她当然是位杰出的词曲作者，出色的歌手，舞台魅力十足，表演功力深厚。

Alright. Well, Stephanie, that's how she managed to get so many fans, so many supporters. She's a great songwriter, of course, a great singer. She looks good on stage. She's a great performer.

她还是精明的商人，卓越的营销者。是的，她样样精通。确实如此。

She's a good businesswoman. She's a great marketer. Yes. You know, she's got it all. Yeah.

这是否意味着她现在在美国确实非常有影响力？而在美国如此分裂的时期，有像泰勒·斯威夫特这样的人存在是件好事吗？

Does that mean that she is really powerful in America right now? And at a time when America is so fractured, is that a good thing to have someone like Taylor Swift there?

嗯，我希望她能更有影响力，而某些美国人能少些影响力——原因想必Yes. ABC的听众和其他许多人都明白。她在娱乐产业拥有巨大影响力，一举一动都备受关注。但这是否意味着只要她足够渴望，就能让任何事情发生？

Well, I wish that she were more powerful and that a number of American people were less powerful for reasons that are likely obvious to Yes. ABC listeners and many other people. She has a great deal of power over the entertainment industry. She has a lot of attention paid to whatever she does. Does that mean that she can make anything happen if she wants it to happen badly enough?

不，并非如此。2018年她在自己家乡州的几场州级选举中相当活跃时，甚至没能让她支持的候选人当选。一个领域的权力未必能转化为另一个领域的权力。回顾她的政治参与史，你会发现她逐渐认识到权力并非如此运作——这个过程既令人沮丧，或许也让她感到挫败。

No. It does not. She couldn't even elect her preferred candidate when she was quite active in 2018 in a couple of state level elections in her home state. Power in one sphere does not necessarily translate into power in another. And if you look at her history of political involvement, one of the things that you see is how discouraging and maybe frustrating it's been for her to realize that power doesn't work like that.

但我认为她在美国确实扮演着某种团结者的角色。这是其他娱乐人物尝试过但相当艰难的角色，多莉·帕顿就是个例子。我认为多莉·帕顿可能是泰勒在延长职业生涯和持续创作方面的榜样之一。我不希望所有著名娱乐人物都试图统一国家、回避争议，因为我们需要一些争议。

But one of the roles that I think she does play in The US is as something of a unifying figure. It is a role that other entertainment figures have attempted to play, and it's quite difficult. Dolly Parton is someone to look at there. And I think Dolly Parton may turn out to have been one of Taylor's models in terms of to extend your career and keep writing. I would not want to have all of our most famous entertainment figures try to unify the nation and avoid controversy because we need some controversy.

但泰勒似乎决定将'团结者'作为自己的特定角色。我当然希望她能发表声明、召开记者会说'停止让秘密警察绑架人民'——我真心希望她这么做。但若纵观她的人生轨迹、她过去的尝试和现在的选择，我能理解为何她可能觉得自己不适合做这件事。

But I think that Taylor has decided that her particular role was to be a unifying figure. Of course I wish that she would do press releases and that she would do press conferences that say stop having the secret police kidnap people. I wish she would do that. But I understand if you look at the arc of her life and what she's tried to do and what she's doing now, why she might feel she's not the person to do that.

嗯。好吧。斯蒂芬妮，正如你哈佛课程标题所示，她确实创造了自己的世界。不过用简短的话来说，你认为历史会如何铭记她？

Mhmm. Alright. Well, Stephanie, she has created her own world as the title Yeah. Of your Harvard class suggests. Just in a in a few words, though, how do you think she will go down in history?

我们将长期聆听的伟大词曲作者——我会不断在她的作品中发现新的深度与高度。

Major songwriter that we're gonna be listening to and I'm gonna be listening to and seeing new depths and as well as new heights for a very long time.

斯蒂芬妮·伯特是哈佛大学英语系教授，也是《泰勒的版本》一书的作者。本期节目由杰西卡·伍基诺夫和萨姆·邓制作，音频制作由肉桂·尼普哈德负责，我们的代理监制是悉尼·皮特。我是萨姆·霍利。

Stephanie Burt is a professor of English at Harvard University and the author of Taylor's Version. This episode was produced by Jessica Wukhinov and Sam Dung. Audio production by Cinnamon Niphard. Our acting supervising producer is Sydney Pete. I'm Sam Hawley.

ABC新闻日报。我们下周一再见。感谢收听。

ABC News Daily. We'll be back again on Monday. Thanks for listening.