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好了，听众朋友们。
Alright, listeners.
现在是时候向大家介绍我们节目的老朋友，Vanta。
Now is a great time to tell you about a longtime friend of the show, Vanta.
人工智能彻底打乱了整个安全格局。
AI has scrambled the whole security picture.
以前，你只需要在年度审计或一份静态PDF中证明你的安全性，然后大家点点头，就完事了。
It used to be that you proved that you were secure once a year on audit or a static PDF, then everyone would nod, and you're done.
但在一个人工智能优先的世界里，这已经行不通了。
But in an AI first world, that doesn't hold up anymore.
对。
Yep.
现在你的风险面每周都在变化。
Your risk surface changes every week now.
某个供应商启用了AI功能，或者有人在不通知IT部门的情况下引入新模型，你的安全态势就和上周不一样了，更不用说和上次审计时相比了。
A vendor turns on an AI feature or someone writes in a new model without telling IT, and your posture is different than it was last week, let alone at your last audit.
Vanta自己的研究发现，大约70%的公司都有这种所谓的“影子AI”在运行，完全没有经过任何安全审查。
Vanta's own research found that around 70% of companies have this, quote, unquote, shadow AI running with no security review at all.
对。
Right.
这就是Vanta发挥作用的地方。
And that's where Vanta comes in.
他们是领先的代理型信任平台，也就是说，他们构建了填补这个空白的工具。
They're the leading agentic trust platform, meaning they've built the thing that closes the gap.
他们填补空白的方式就是Vanta Agent。
And the way that they close that gap is Vanta agent.
你可以把它想象成一个GRC工程师，也就是治理、风险和合规方面的专家，只不过它是软件，而且不用睡觉。
Think of it as a GRC engineer, that's governance, risk, and compliance, except that it's software, and it doesn't sleep.
它能发现问题，起草修复方案，还能把你在供应商评估上花的时间减半。
It finds the issues, drafts the fixes, and cuts the time that you'd spend on vendor assessments in half.
减半，
In half,
这正是如今超过16000家公司在使用Vanta的原因。
which is exactly why more than 16,000 companies today run on Vanta.
像Ramp、Cursor和Snowflake这样的公司，都能保持审计就绪状态，并捕捉到每次审计之间出现的风险，涵盖所有供应商、所有AI工具以及整个环境。
Companies like Ramp, Cursor, and Snowflake all stay audit ready and catch the risks that crop up between audits across every vendor, every AI tool, the whole environment.
这才是真正的价值所在。
And that's the real value.
现在信任必须是持续性的，所以Vanta自动化了你的安全、合规以及赢得和证明信任所需的工作。
Trust has to be continuous now, which is why Vanta automates your security, your compliance, and the work to earn and prove trust.
我们非常喜欢Vanta，多年来，已经有数百位收听我们节目的听众在他们公司成为了Vanta的客户。
We're huge fans of Vanta over here, and literally hundreds of acquired listeners have become Vanta customers at their companies over the years.
所以你可以通过vanta.com/acquired获得一千美元的优惠。
So you can get a thousand dollars off Vanta at vanta.com/acquired.
网址是vanta.com/acquired，可以优惠一千美元，只要告诉他们Ben和David推荐你来的就行。
That's vanta.com/acquired for a thousand dollars off, and just tell them that Ben and David sent you.
八十七年前。
Four score and seven years ago.
我们的先辈在这片大陆上创立了国家。
Our forefathers brought forth in this continent.
你能背到哪儿？
How far can you go with that?
我其实忘了。
I actually forgot.
你就背到这儿？
That's as far as you got?
哦，你连这儿都没背到？
Oh, you didn't even get that far?
你小学的公民课都学了什么？
What did you learn in civics in elementary school?
谁说的是真的？
Who got the truth?
是你吗？
Is it you?
是你吗？
Is it you?
是你吗？
Is it you?
现在谁掌握真相了？
Who got the truth now?
是你吗？
Is it you?
是你吗？
Is it you?
是你吗？
Is it you?
让我坐下。
Sit me down.
直说吧。
Say it straight.
换个故事吧。
Another story
欢迎收听《Acquired》第八集。
Welcome to episode number eight of Acquired.
我是本·吉尔伯特。
I'm Ben Gilbert.
我是大卫·罗森塔尔。
I'm David Rosenthal.
我们是你们的主持人。
And we are your hosts.
今天这期节目非常特别。
Today, have a very special episode.
我们请到了一位微软的嘉宾，库尔特·德尔贝内。
We have, a guest at Microsoft, Kurt DelBene.
对。
Yeah.
今天我们非常荣幸能请到Kurt DelBene。
We are very lucky to have Kurt DelBene with us today.
他一直是我们俩的好朋友和导师，而且我们俩在Madrona的时候也都受过他的指导。
He's been a great friend and mentor to, both of us in different ways, and actually both of us at Madrona too.
Kurt的职业生涯其实是从非常著名、享有盛誉的贝尔实验室开始的，他在那里待了五年，然后去了Booth，在芝加哥大学拿到了MBA学位。
So Kurt, started his career actually at the very, famous and renowned Bell Labs, and spent five years there and then went to Booth and got his MBA at Chicago.
之后他在麦肯锡短暂工作了一段时间，然后去了微软，在微软工作了二十多年，最终在Ben还在那里的时候，Kurt成为了Office部门的总裁，他一直担任这个职位直到2013年12月。
Went to did a short stint at McKinsey after that and then went to Microsoft and had an over twenty year career at Microsoft that, culminated when Ben was there in in Kurt being the president of Office, which he was until December 2013.
在那之后，他去了healthcare.gov，在那里帮助推出了奥巴马医改，之后又和我们一起工作了一段时间。
And then afterwards he went to to healthcare.gov and did a stint there helping launch Obamacare and after that ended up, with us for a little while.
我们真的很幸运能让他作为风险合伙人加入Pedrona。
We were really lucky to have him at Pedrona as a venture partner.
然后去年春天，Kurt回到了微软，现在担任企业战略与规划的执行副总裁。
And, and then last spring, Kurt returned to Microsoft and, is the EVP of Corporate Strategy and Planning.
所以，Kurt，非常感谢你赏光。
So thank you, Kurt, for gracing us.
嘿。
Hey.
很高兴来到这里，也很高兴再次和你们聊天。
It's good to be here and good to talk to you guys again.
关于 healthcare.gov 有一点小更正。
Just one little correction on healthcare.gov.
我是在它上线之后才加入，帮忙修复问题的。
I came in after the launch to help them repair it.
没错，而且对于听众朋友们，我有幸某天早上起得特别早，去 Madrona 听 Kurt 讲那段经历。
You did, and for listeners, I had the privilege of waking up real early one morning and coming in to hear Kurt talk about that at Madrona.
听他怎么收拾那么一个庞大的软件项目，真是特别有意思，把所有合适的人、合适的顾问和承包公司都聚到一起，把整个事情拼起来，Kurt，那看起来就像一场完美的芭蕾舞。
It is absolutely fascinating to hear how to mop up a gigantic software project like that, and and getting all the right people on the bus, all the right, consultants and contracting firms that that are putting that whole thing together is, Kurt, that looked like an absolute ballet.
嗯，那确实非常有成就感，也特别有挑战性，也许我们以后可以专门做一期播客聊聊这个。
Well it was super rewarding and super challenging, so maybe we can do a future podcast just on that.
这是个很有意思的话题。
It's an interesting topic.
你需要好好休息一下，所以之后你去了一家风投公司待了十个月。
You needed to get some good R and R, so you went to a venture firm for ten months afterwards.
所以今天和Kurt一起，我们要聊一个非常应景的收购案，实际上我们会顺带提几个，但重点是Acompli，也就是现在iOS和Android上的移动版Outlook。
So today with Kurt, we're gonna talk about, hopefully a very topical acquisition and we're actually gonna lump a few in here, but the main focus is gonna be Acompli, which is now, the mobile Outlook on iOS and Android.
我会快速过一遍，我们主要讲Acompli，然后穿插一些Sunrise和Wunderlist的内容，这些都是微软在过去大约十八个月里收购的办公效率应用。
So I'm gonna run through quickly, we're gonna do Acompli and then and then we'll sprinkle in little bits of, both Sunrise and Wunderlist, are also, office productivity apps that Microsoft all acquired in the past eighteen months or so.
我会快速介绍一下收购的历史和事实。
And so I'm gonna run through quickly the acquisition history and facts.
Acompli成立于2013年4月，创始人是Javier Soltero、JJ Zwong和Kevin Henriksen。
Acompli founded April 2013 by Javier Soltero, JJ Zwong, and Kevin Henriksen.
有意思的是，Javier是卡内基梅隆大学的工程师，后来是Netscape的早期员工。
It's interesting, Javier was CMU engineer and then an early employee at Netscape.
Javier在VMware待了三年半，然后回归他的生产力应用老本行，创立了Acompli。我从它发布测试版的第一天起就是用户，当时在我的iPhone上，觉得它真的很棒，是第一个把邮件和日历整合在一个应用里的移动应用。
And Javier, spent three and a half years at at VMware before kinda coming back to his productivity roots and founding Acompli which, I was a user from day one when it launched in beta and thought it was on my iPhone and thought it was just a great, really the first mobile app that combined mail and calendar all in one app.
Outlook多年来一直在做的神奇之处，但没有人真正创新。
The magic that Outlook had been doing for so many years and no one really Innovation.
iOS。
IOS.
旧的东西又变新了。
What's old is new again.
他们从红点资本获得了730万美元的A轮融资，由红点资本领投，哈维尔在VMware之后曾在那里担任入驻企业家，还有Harrison Metal和Felisys参与。
They raised a $7,300,000 series a from Redpoint, led by Redpoint, where Javier had been in an EIR after VMware, and Harrison Metal and Felisys.
大约十八个月后，微软在2014年12月以据报道2亿美元的价格收购了这家公司。
Then about eighteen months later, Microsoft acquired the company in December 2014 for a reported $200,000,000.
这挺有意思的。
It was interesting.
其实大家都知道这次收购会发生，因为微软写了一篇博客文章，在收购正式完成前大约两周就泄露了。
There's actually a everybody knew this acquisition was gonna happen because Microsoft wrote a blog post about it and it leaked about two weeks before the acquisition actually, actually went live.
是的。
Yeah.
那可不是什么光彩的时刻。
Not a shining moment.
虽然不太光彩，但结果还是成功的。
Not a shining moment, but, but, it was successful.
收购确实完成了。
The acquisition happened.
大约25名员工，全部在旧金山。
Are about 25 employees all based in San Francisco.
他们都加入了微软。
They all joined Microsoft.
大卫，那距离发布才大概七八个月，可能九个月吧。
And David, that was only I think like seven, eight months after launch, nine months maybe.
我记得是同年四月发布的。
I think it launched in April of that same year.
从公司成立到收购，不到十八个月。
It was it was eighteen months, less than eighteen months after the founding of the company.
而且那是在Dropbox收购Mailbox之后不久。
And, so it was very quick and this was right after, Dropbox had acquired Mailbox.
所以那段时间就是邮箱和移动邮箱收购潮。
So it was the era of email mobile email acquisitions.
iOS邮件应用的战争已经开始了。
Begun the iOS mail app wars have.
对。
Yes.
不久之后，微软在2015年2月收购了日历应用Sunrise。
Shortly thereafter, Microsoft, then acquired the calendar app Sunrise in February 2015.
然后在2015年6月，微软收购了待办事项应用Wunderlist，我知道这可能在Kurt心里有个特殊位置，因为他那么喜欢列清单。
And then in June 2015, Microsoft acquired Wunderlist, the to do list app which I know has probably has a soft spot in Kurt's heart knowing how much he loves lists.
我确实很喜欢Wunderlist。
I do love Wunderlist.
这是个很棒的应用。
It is a great app.
当时我还跟Kurt开玩笑说，微软这是要把我iPhone主屏幕上的应用全买下来啊。
I I joked when that happened I think with Kurt that Microsoft was trying to buy my entire iPhone home screen.
没错。
Exactly.
那你最后得告诉我们你现在用的是什么。
So what you'll have to tell us at the end what you're using these days.
我现在还在用所有这些产品。
I am still using all of these products.
这就是最好的推荐了。
That's an endorsement right there.
对。
Yeah.
就是这样。
There you go.
我很感激。
I appreciate that.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，在那之后，就在收购Wunderlist的同时，Javier其实在微软内部升职了，成了负责整个Outlook的企业副总裁。
So with that, what's happened since then in at that same time right after the Wunderlist acquisition, Javier was actually promoted within Microsoft to be the corporate VP running all of Outlook.
所以不只是Outlook手机应用，桌面版的Outlook也归他管。
So not, not just the Outlook mobile app, but Outlook on desktop as well.
没过多久，Sunrise日历也并入了Outlook。
Shortly thereafter after that, Sunrise, calendar was rolled into Outlook.
Wunderlist到现在还是独立运营的，不过已经宣布可能会有进一步的整合。
Wunderlist has has remained independent, today, but, has been announced that, further integrations may be coming on that front.
所以也许Kurt能给我们讲讲这方面的情况。
So maybe Kurt can enlighten us on that.
那么，Kurt，我们很想听听你是怎么看待这些产品的。
But with that, Kurt, would love to hear kinda how you thought about, about all of these products.
好的。
Sure.
首先我要说的是，这笔收购发生在我离开微软的那段时间，但我对整个历史都很了解。
So the first thing I should say is the acquisition happened during my, time away from Microsoft, but I know the whole history of it.
我现在领导的企业战略团队，当时深度参与了这次收购。
The corporate strategy team was which I lead now was intimately involved in the in the acquisition.
而且我对这个领域当然非常熟悉。
So and I obviously know the space super well.
我在Office上花了很多时间。
I spent a ton of time in office.
所以当我看到这件事发生时，我说，好的。
So when I saw it happen, I said, okay.
这完全说得通。
This one makes complete sense.
这是一个例子，我的意思是，微软进行收购的原因有很多，我相信所有公司都是如此。
This is an exam I mean, there are different reasons that Microsoft makes acquisitions as I'm sure there are for all companies.
有些情况下，我们会审视我们在某个领域的地位，然后说我们需要一项技术，我们需要一个特定的产品。
There are places where we look at our position in a particular area and say we need a technology, we need a particular product.
还有其他情况，我们会机会主义地看待一个在某个领域表现良好的产品或公司，然后说，我们能看到与我们现有业务的相邻性。
There are other cases where we opportunistically look at a product or company that's doing well in a space and say, we can see an adjacency to the business that we have.
所以我们想收购这家公司，来拓展那个相邻业务。
And so we want to acquire the company to kind of build out that adjacency.
还有一些比较少见的案例，我们是为了获得特定的人才。
There's some more rare cases where we'll do it to get a particular set of talent.
你知道，我们看到一个团队特别特别优秀。
You know, we see a team that's super, super good.
但我觉得那通常是个例外。
But I think that tends to be the exception.
这次收购，我觉得算是战略性的。
This one was the was kind of, I would say, a strategic acquisition.
如果你想想Office的发展历程，它的核心竞争力一直在桌面端，就是Office套件。
If you think about the journey that Office has been on, the core competency has been on the desktop, you know, the Office suite.
我说的桌面端，既包括Windows PC，也包括在Mac上领先的生产力工具。
And by desktop, I mean both the Windows PC and, you know, kind of leading productivity on the Mac as well.
所以从那个核心出发，随着其他操作系统变得流行，特别是在移动领域，团队——这也是公司战略部门和ASG团队一起做的努力——说，好吧，这显然是我们必须通过收购或自己开发来进入的领域，但我们需要为Office 365的核心场景打造一个出色的应用，这些场景就是邮件、联系人、日历和待办事项。
And so coming from that core as other OSs became popular, particularly in the mobile space, the team actually, it was a corporate strategy effort with the team, with the ASG team as well, said, okay, this is clearly a place where we've got to make an acquisition or build ourselves, but we need to have a great app for the core Office three sixty five scenarios, and those are email contacts, calendaring, and to do.
所以我们就在想，是自主研发还是直接收购呢？
And so we said, do we want to make or do we want to buy?
有没有哪家公司是我们特别想要的？
And is there somebody out there that we would love to have?
然后我们就说，好吧，如果真要收购的话，那会是什么样子？
And really just said, okay, what would if we do want to acquire, what would that look like?
如果内部开发的话，又会是什么样子？
What would it look like to make it internally?
有没有哪些候选公司值得我们收购？
And are there candidates there that would would be great for us to acquire?
就这样，我们开始了这条路，然后一步步走下来了。
So that's what kinda got us started on the path, and it kinda went from there.
好的。
Cool.
谢谢你，Kurt。
Thanks, Kurt.
我觉得，最近大家经常读到的一个话题就是微软正在从一家Windows和Office公司转型为一家移动优先、云优先的公司。
I I think it's, one of the things that you read a lot about these days is Microsoft shifting from the Windows and Office company to a a mobile first, cloud first company.
对。
Mhmm.
而且，你知道，我觉得从宏观角度来看，首先作为消费者，从公众对微软的观感来看，大家都非常喜欢这个转变。
And, you know, I I think that from a high level, first of all, as consumer and just from the public perception of Microsoft these days, everyone is loving that.
我的意思是，整个重点放在打造真正出色的跨平台体验，让你随时随地都能访问相同的数据、相同的服务，以及你熟悉和喜爱的核心Office服务，这对消费者来说价值巨大。
I mean the whole focus on build a really great cross platform experience, have the same data with you everywhere, access to the same services, the same core office services that you know and love, huge value prop for consumers.
当你们转向这些免费移动应用，而这些应用又运行在你们并不拥有的平台上时，你们如何看待微软未来的收入来源？这又如何取代过去销售Windows和Office盒装软件那样的巨大收入呢？
As you guys transition to these free mobile apps that are on platforms that you don't own, how do you look at that as the revenue future of Microsoft, and how does that replace the the giants of yore with selling Windows and and Office Box software?
过去的巨大收入。
The giants of yore.
我喜欢这个说法。
I love that.
我觉得可以从几个角度来看这个问题。
I think there's a couple ways to look at it.
首先你得认识到，Office 365，还有云端版的Exchange、SharePoint和Skype for Business，本身就是微软强劲且快速增长的营收来源。
The first thing is you have to recognize that Office three sixty five, the cloud versions of Exchange, SharePoint and Skype for Business are strong in rapidly growing revenue streams for Microsoft in, you know, by themselves.
所以从某种意义上说，一直以来都是这样：你买Exchange的时候，会附带一个客户端体验。追溯到90年代中期的Exchange客户端，总是有一个配套的客户端。
So in some sense, it's always been the case that when you buy exchange, you get a client experience that goes with that, you know, go all the way back to the exchange clients in the mid 90s, there's always a client that came with it.
这个模式一直延续到现在。
And that model has stayed.
所以再说回Acompli，他们确实在下载量和月活跃用户数方面迅速占据了领先地位，这对我们来说非常有吸引力。
And so again, looking at Acompli in particular, they were really developing a very fast leadership position in terms of downloads in terms of monthly active users, that was very appealing to us.
所以我觉得，在移动端，这很自然——你必须提供某种免费体验。
And so I think just that's a natural to something when it comes to mobile, you've got to to have a certain free experience.
然后你可以考虑在免费的基础上，提供付费的增值体验，超出市场对免费功能的预期。
And then you can think about having a paid experience incremental to what the expectation in the market of what is free.
所以就拿邮件来说，大家的期望是，你有一个客户端，既能处理免费邮箱，也能处理企业邮箱。
So in the case of email, you know, the expectation is you're gonna have a single client that'll work against your free mail, but it'll also work against your enterprise mail.
你可以考虑把一些功能放在付费墙后面。
You can think about features that you put behind a firewall, you know, a pay firewall.
我们通过Office 365中的不同层级来实现这一点，客户端本身也有不同的层级，而且客户端也可以作为订阅服务来使用。
We do that by having, certain tiers within Office three sixty five, and then there's certain tiers within the client too, which is also available as a subscription.
所以我们考虑的是，有一部分免费功能是每个人都应该能用的。
So we think about there's a certain free thing that free piece that you wanna give to everybody.
还有一部分功能可以作为附加功能来提供。
There's a certain set of features that can be made available as add ons.
有些特定领域特别适合这样做。
There are particular areas where that works well.
比如那些需要和别人沟通的功能，如果必须付费才能用，那就不太好，因为你希望所有使用这个服务的人都能有共同的功能。
So features where to communicate to somebody else, you gotta have the paid one, that doesn't work very well because you wanna have a common capability across the across all the people using the service.
但像企业级功能，比如保留策略、使用分析之类的，这些功能人们愿意额外付费，但你不需要把它们内置到核心产品里。
But things like enterprise features, like retention policies and anything around usage analysis, etcetera, those are all features where people will pay for pay extra for them, but you don't have to build it into the core product.
所以我们确实看到了这样分层收费的可能性。
So we definitely see the ability to kinda tier things that way.
另外你还需要考虑的是，人们有多台设备。
The other thing you have to think about is, people have multiple devices.
你知道，他们有一台PC。
You you know, they have a PC.
他们有一部安卓手机。
They have an Android phone.
他们有一部Windows手机。
They have a Windows phone.
他们有一台Mac和一部iPhone。
They have a a Mac and an iPhone.
所以你得把客户端体验看作是一整套跨所有这些不同设备的体验。
And so you have to think about the client experience as being a single set of client experiences that go across all those different devices.
如果你能把这些打包成一个订阅，那你就可以推销整个订阅的价值主张，不管用户碰巧用的是什么设备。
And if you can package those together into a subscription, then you can sell the value proposition of the entire subscription regardless of what, device you happen to to have.
但话说回来，你还是得考虑，在所有用户觉得流行的设备上，我们都要有领先地位。
But then again, you still have to think about we need to have a leader leadership position in all of the devices that people find popular.
所以我们希望Office能提供最佳体验，不管你在iOS设备上，还是在安卓设备上。
And so we wanna have Office be the best experience regardless of whether you're on an iOS device, whether you're on an Android device.
你知道，我们当然希望你把Windows当作你的家，但无论你使用什么设备，我们都需要提供出色的体验。
You know, we'd love to to have you think of Windows as your home, but we need to have a great experience regardless of the devices that you use.
嗯，我觉得这是微软和你真正做得非常出色的事情。
Well, I think, you this is something that Microsoft and and you have really done a great job with.
我的意思是，回到Office 365的起源，本，当你在微软工作时，你正在为iPad开发Office。
I mean, in going back to the origin of Office 365, know, Ben, when you were working at Microsoft, you were working on Office for iPad.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
It was.
那真是太有趣了。
That so much fun.
嗯，我们最终确实推出了。
Well, finally we did get around to shipping
那时候。
that then.
对。
Yes.
而且，你知道，这件事的重要性在于，作为消费者，现在关键不在于我在某个特定设备上使用邮件客户端、Excel 或 Word 的体验。
And, you know, the importance of it, know, as a consumer, you know, it's not about my experience with my mail client or with Excel or with Word on a on a particular device now.
而在于这些应用如何在我所有进行计算的场景中协同工作。
It's about how that works in concert across all of the areas where I'm doing my computing.
一个相关的问题，我想知道你们在收购 Acompli 和制定战略时有没有考虑过，就是 Ben 提到的统一收件箱。
A related area that I'm curious if you guys thought about with the Acompli acquisition and the strategy is, something that Ben touched on the unified inbox.
我记得我大学毕业后的第一份工作是在金融行业，当时我用的当然是 Outlook。
And I remember in my first job, in finance out of college, I had obviously Outlook.
我在银行工作，所有的工作邮件都在电脑和工作站上的 Outlook 里。
I was working in a bank, and all of my work email was on Outlook on my computer and my workstation.
那时候 iPhone 刚发布，我很喜欢它，因为这意味着我可以在工作时查看我的 Gmail。
And, the iPhone had just launched and I loved it because it meant I could get my Gmail at work.
而现在，你知道，对不同收件箱的概念，至少对我来说，而且我想对大多数听众来说，都是我们不会再考虑的事情了。
And and now, you know, the concept of having different inboxes, for me at least is something I think for probably most of our listeners is something that we we wouldn't even think about anymore.
这也是你们当初的策略考虑之一吗？
Was that was that part of the strategy here too?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得Acompli在提供统一收件箱方面做得非常好。
I think that Acompli does a great job of giving you a single unified inbox.
Windows Phone的客户端也可以把几个收件箱关联在一起。
Windows Phone also on its client also can get you can link together a couple inboxes together.
但如果你回顾Outlook刚创建的时候，它彻底改变了以往电子邮件和日历功能分离的局面。
But if you go all the way back to when Outlook was first created, it was a total different look at what had historically been separate products for email versus calendaring.
当时我们有Schedule Plus，你们博客听众里年纪稍大的朋友应该还记得Schedule Plus。
We had Schedule Plus, those of you older in your blogosphere listeners will remember Schedule plus.
它甚至成了一个动词。
It became a verb.
它当时太流行了。
It was so popular.
事实上，微软的走廊里至今还在流传着发送Schedule Plus的事情。
And in fact, still still echoes around the hallways of Microsoft about sending s pluses around.
没错。
Exactly.
每次我纠正他们，我称之为会议请求，因为你知道，Schedule早就没了。
Every time I correct them, and I call it a me it's a meeting request because, you know, Schedule is long since dead.
但这种整合统一的概念，其实正是人们使用产品的期望。
But this notion that things come together and become unified, it really just follows how people expect to use the product.
所以当你开始在Schedule Plus里加入一堆会议请求功能时，它突然看起来就很像电子邮件了。
So when you start building a bunch of meeting request capability into Schedule Plus, all of a sudden, it starts to look a lot like email.
因此，Outlook在Brian MacDonald的领导下——他算是Outlook的鼻祖，当时它叫Ren，就是Ren和Stimpy里的那个Ren——他有个想法，就是把邮件、日历和任务这些不同的东西整合到一个用户体验里，这个想法显然已经得到了验证。
And so Outlook, and under Brian MacDonald, who's the the kind of the father of of Outlook way back when it was called Ren, as in Ren and Stimpy, he had this idea that you wanna bring these different mail and calendaring, and tasks all together into a single user experience, which clearly has been borne out.
早期版本的Outlook确实不够好。
Early on, the versions of Outlook were not up to the task.
说实话，回顾过去，有一段时间Outlook被称为Lookout，因为你想远离它，因为它刚出来的时候非常慢，但它现在已经成为这个整合产品系列中的真正领导者了。
Really, I say will in retrospect that there was a period of time when Outlook was called Lookout because you wanted to stay away from it because it was pretty slow, when it first happened, but it's become really the leader in this integrated set of products.
我觉得移动设备上也是这样，因为这些使用场景都紧密地融合在一起了。
And I think that's happening on mobile devices as well because those scenarios are so deeply integrated together.
你会发现日历功能也深度整合了。
I think you find calendaring deeply integrated.
这就是为什么Sunrise被整合进了Acompli。
That's why Sunrise got integrated into Acompli.
任务管理其实有点不一样。
Task management actually is a little bit different.
所以我们认为，如果说有什么不同的话，移动端的模式就是不同的应用对应不同的使用场景。
And so we think that there's you know, if anything, the mobile, the paradigm in mobile is different applications for different use cases.
所以，在电脑上适用的做法不一定在移动设备上也适用。
And so it's not necessarily the case that what you do for the PC is what makes sense to do on a mobile device as well.
我可以告诉你，目前没有特别的计划要把Wunderlist深度整合进Acompli。
And I can tell you there aren't any particular plans to take Wunderlist and in a and deeply integrate it with Acompli.
不过，在那些使用场景有交叉的地方，整合可能确实很有意义。
Where the scenarios crossover probably makes a lot of sense.
但是，你知道，这些不同应用各自的特色还是需要保留的。
But then, you know, the personality needs to be preserved of those different applications.
而且我们认为它们本身就是很大的应用。
And we think they're big applications in and of of themselves.
好了，听众朋友们。
Alright, listeners.
现在是时候感谢我们节目的老朋友ServiceNow了。
Now is a great time to thank our longtime friend of the show, ServiceNow.
如果你在运营一家大型企业，AI代理可能已经遍布各个团队，部署它们已经不再是难事了。
If you are running a large enterprise, AI agents are likely spread across every team, and deploying them is, no longer the hard part.
对。
Yeah.
难的是了解它们有哪些权限，员工在用它们做什么，或者AI在做哪些决策。
The hard part is knowing what permissions they have, what employees are using them for, or what decisions AI is making.
对于大规模企业来说，AI安全可不是一个小问题。
AI security for an enterprise at scale is not a small concern.
比如说，风险是真实存在的。
Like, the risks are real.
没错。
Exactly.
而AI的挑战在于治理、安全、衡量，以及确保它真正带来价值。
And the challenge with AI is governing it, securing it, measuring it, and making sure that it actually delivers value.
这就是ServiceNow打造AI控制塔的原因。
That is why ServiceNow built the AI control tower.
对。
Yep.
AI控制塔让企业在一个地方就能看到、管理、治理并优化整个业务中的AI。
AI control tower gives enterprises a single place to see, manage, govern, and optimize AI across the entire business.
而且它兼容任何AI，不只是他们自己的。
And it works with any AI, not just theirs.
你网络上的每个设备，每个系统的每个权限，每个AI代理，都能在一个地方可见且安全。
Every device on your network, every permission across every system, every AI agent visible and secure in one place.
ServiceNow能做到这一点，是因为他们花了二十多年时间打造企业的运营骨干。
And ServiceNow can do this because they've spent more than twenty years building the operational backbone of the enterprise.
包括工作流、治理、审批、安全控制以及机构知识，这些支撑着IT、人力资源、客户服务、财务和安全等领域的实际工作。
The workflows, governance, approval, security controls, and institutional knowledge that power how work actually gets done across IT, HR, customer service, finance, and security.
ServiceNow每年运行超过一千亿个工作流，为超过85%的财富500强企业处理数万亿笔交易。
ServiceNow already runs more than a 100,000,000,000 workflows annually and trillions of transactions for more than 85% of the Fortune 500.
所以当企业需要在一个地方治理大规模AI时，他们是在一个已经处于业务运营核心的平台上进行构建。
So when companies need a place to govern AI at enterprise scale, they're building on a platform at the center of how their business already operates.
未来不会只有一种AI，而是会有成千上万的AI代理在公司各个职能部门中协同工作。
And in a future that isn't going to be one AI, it's going to be thousands of AI agents working across every function of the company.
但问题是，谁来管理它们呢？
But the question is, who's managing them all?
所以，如果你想将AI的雄心转化为实际的业务成果，并确保其安全、可靠地大规模运行，就去看看servicenow.com/acquired，告诉他们Ben和David推荐你来的。
So if you're trying to turn AI ambition into real business outcomes and make it work safely, securely at scale, go check out servicenow.com/acquired and tell them that Ben and David sent you.
你知道吗，我们现在讨论的是软件集成。
You know, we're talking about integration of software right now.
我们来谈谈人的整合吧。
Let's talk about integration of people.
对。
Mhmm.
你们在整合团队时，考虑了哪些不同的方案？比如地理位置、层级结构，还有如何留住人才？
How what were the different options you guys looked at for how you could integrate the teams in terms of location, in terms of hierarchy, in terms of focusing on retention?
你们主要对Acompli团队做了哪些决定？
And what decisions did you guys make with primarily the Acompli team?
这是个好问题。
It's great question.
对我们来说，留住人才和团队本身，以及组织的个性，都极其重要。
It is super, super important for us to retain both the particular talent, the fact that they're a team as well, but also the personality of the organization itself.
所以不是那种被整合进大集体，成为微软一部分的感觉。
So it is not this get integrated into the collective and you are just part of Microsoft.
我们非常努力地保持团队的独立性，同时利用微软这个平台来加速团队目标的实现。
We work really, really hard to keep the teams separate while we take the opportunity of being part of Microsoft to be an accelerant to the objectives of the team.
所以很多人，这些团队加入后，都非常兴奋能够利用微软的广泛资源去做更多伟大的事情。
And so a lot of folks, these teams come on and they're just super excited about being able to leverage the the breadth of Microsoft to do more great things.
所以，如果我没记错的话，所有这些团队都还在原来的地方。
And so Unless unless I'm mistaken, all of these teams are still in their original locations.
嗯，这是另一回事。
Well, that's the other thing.
他们都不在雷德蒙德。
None of them are in Redmond.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
让所有人都来雷德蒙德没什么意义。
It doesn't make much sense to have everybody come to Redmond.
这也没必要。
It's it's not necessary.
我们本来就已经是一家遍布各地的公司，所以从这个角度看，没有这个必要。
We are already a broad company that has locations everywhere, so there's not a need from that perspective.
他们搬过来没有任何意义。
There's no purpose in them moving.
他们的办公地点很棒。
They have cool locations.
他们的家人在那里，他们也有自己的家。
They have homes where their family are.
所以大多数情况下，我们其实不会让他们搬家。
And so in most cases, we actually don't relocate them.
这次的情况也完全一样。
And that's definitely been the case here as well.
Wunderlist的团队在德国，他们很喜欢那里。
The Wunderlist guys are in Germany, and they love being there.
我们也非常乐意让他们留在那里。
And we're just as happy to have them there as well.
其实，软件的本质就是全球化的生意，所以我们完全可以适应这一点。
I mean, the nature of software is it is a global business now, and so we can definitely accommodate that.
另外，我们一直在努力做的，就是如何充分利用团队已有的技能和他们的愿景。
The other thing that we've tried to really do is figure out how do we take advantage of that the, skills that the team has and the vision that they have.
这就是为什么你会看到Javier成为整个Outlook的负责人。
That's why you see Javier become the leader of, Outlook overall.
这其实就是一种认可，对吧。
And that's just a recognition that, hey.
这些人做出了非常了不起的事情，我们想尽可能多地利用他们的才能。
These guys did something really incredible, We want to make sure that we take advantage of that as much as humanly possible.
我们确实也在寻找这样的机会。
We definitely look for cases like that as well.
第三点，我觉得最棘手的是，我们希望他们的产品能和微软的其他产品产生协同效应。
The third thing I would say is the trickiest aspect of it from our perspective is we have places where we want to drive synergy between their product and other products at Microsoft.
这真的非常难办，因为这些人都带着自己既定的计划来，他们想实现自己的目标。
And that's a very, very tricky piece because these guys all come in with an a set of plans that they have in place that they want to accomplish.
如果你让他们偏离那个使命太远，你可能会毁掉当初收购时看中的那些特别之处。
And if you divert them too far from that mission, you can ruin this what's special that you you did the acquisition for in the first place.
所以我们尽量非常非常小心。
And so we try to be really, really careful.
我不确定我们总能把握好平衡。
I'm not sure we always get the balance right.
有时候我们过于强调整合，结果发现失去了一些独门秘籍，因为产品推出变慢了，创新也不那么出色了。
There's sometimes when we over index on the integration and we find that we lose a little of the secret sauce because the product starts coming out more slowly and the innovation doesn't come through as well.
我们也在不断学习。
And we're learning all the time too.
所以我不确定我们总能做得对。
And so I'm not sure we always get it right.
我其实觉得，在我们讨论的这些收购案中，我们平衡得还不错。
I actually think on these acquisitions that we're talking about, we set the balance pretty well.
对，这个我可以作证。
Yeah, and I can speak to that.
我前两天刚发了一条推文，问大家谁在用iPhone版的Outlook。
I just put out a tweet a couple days ago sort of asking about who's using Outlook for iPhone.
然后有个我在那边团队认识的人回复了我，他的回复大意是，告诉我你觉得怎么样。
And I got a response from someone I knew on the team over there, his response was something along the lines of, let me know how you like it.
我们动作很快。
We move fast.
对。
Yep.
而且我想要反馈。
And I want feedback.
是的。
Yeah.
看起来那个团队，我我不太确定，但我觉得他在微软被收购之前就在那儿了。
And it seems like that team and I I I'm not certain, but I think he was at Microsoft pre acquisition.
所以看起来那种基因好像渗透到了现有团队里，有点像是点燃了一把火。
So it seems like some of that DNA sort of bleeds into the existing team and and kinda lights a fire.
对。
Yeah.
就连简单的事情也一样，比如你用iPhone上的Outlook，其实不管在哪个平台上，你都可以直接在应用里，从你当前的使用场景中，给产品提交反馈。
Even simple things like if you if you use Outlook for for iPhone, there's a way actually, for either, platform, you can give user feedback on the product directly from within the product from the context that you're you're in.
它会把你正在尝试做的事情的所有相关信息打包，然后直接发给我们。
And it'll bundle up everything that it knows about what you're trying to do and basically send it directly to us.
所以，这正是我们想要借鉴的地方，我们想学习他们是如何建立那个三百六十度反馈循环的，然后非常非常认真地跟进并收集数据。
And so that's a place where, you know, we'd love to take those learnings of how they got that that three sixty feedback loop and really, really intensely follow it and collect the data.
所以就像你朋友说的，他们可以非常非常快地行动。
So as as your friend said, they move they can move super, super fast.
对。
Yeah.
从领导层的角度来看，当有人把整个职业生涯和毕生精力都投入到Outlook上，然后你进行了这样的收购，而整个Outlook的领导权落到了这个新来的外部团队手中，你如何确保这在组织层面能够顺利落地呢？
And from a leadership perspective, I mean, when you have people that have made their whole career and their their life's work outlook, and then you do an acquisition like this and and the leadership of of the broader outlook becomes someone from this new and outside team, you how do you how do you make sure that lands organizationally?
其实，这并没有你想象的那么难。
Well, it actually it's not as hard as you might think.
最大的挑战可能是，如果有特定的人原本在等着那个职位或者某个具体职位的话。我觉得有人认为微软的人不开放、不接受新事物，这其实是个误解。
The probably the biggest challenge is if you've got particular people who were in line for that job or a job in specific, I think it's a misconception that people at Microsoft are not open or embracing of of new things that come in.
我甚至不确定这是不是个误解。
I'm not actually even sure if it's a misconception.
但肯定不是这样的。
It's definitely not the case.
所以当像Acompli这样的新团队加入，或者Sunrise、Wunderlist这些产品，大家的普遍反应是，天哪。
And so when a new team like come this comes in, and and in Acompli in particular or any of these products, Sunrise, Wunderlist, it's like it the overall view is, oh my gosh.
这太棒了。
This is a fantastic thing.
我们把他们请进来吧。
Let's in let's bring them in.
我们把他们当作团队来接纳吧。
Let's embrace them as a team.
我们向他们学习，然后一起做出伟大的事情。
Let's learn from them, and we'll all do great things together.
所以其实没有你想象的那么难。
So it's not as hard as you might think.
对。
Yeah.
除非是那些特定的职位，比如新加入的团队里有人得到了某个职位，而其他人可能觉得自己本来有机会得到那个职位。
Absent the particular particular positions where somebody from the entering team might get a get a position that somebody else might have thought they were in line for.
我记得哈维尔被提升为公司副总裁的时候，我是从新闻里听到的，但后来也听到在微软的朋友们谈论这件事。
When, mean I remember when Javier was promoted to corporate VP and hearing about it in the press but then also hearing friends at Microsoft talk about it.
经常看到很多收购案中，被收购公司的CEO或管理团队最终会得到一个没什么实际意义的副总裁头衔，然后他们会待上十八个月，等股票兑现后就走人，去做下一件事了。
Often see looking at lots of acquisitions, the CEO or the management team of the target company will end up, you know, with some meaningless VP title at at the inquiry and they'll stay for eighteen months until they vest and then they're gone and onto their next thing.
我的意思是，这是一个非常重要的职位，在微软，而且真的，我不知道用“晋升”这个词是否合适，因为他本来就是Acompli的CEO，但这确实是对他职责范围的一种认可，这个范围远远超出了Acompli这个移动应用本身。
I mean, this is a major major role at Microsoft, and really was, you know, I don't know if promotion is the right word giving that he was CEO of Acompli, but but a real recognition of a scope that, that that really was was much broader than than just the Acompli mobile app.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
而且这确实是对他能力的认可，我们想更广泛地利用他的能力，而不仅仅是在Acompli团队内部。
And it was it truly was a recognition that he has skills that we wanna leverage more broadly than just within the Acompli team per se.
而且现在进展得非常非常好。
And it's working out really, really well.
其实我本来打算晚点再提这个的，但哈维尔在宣布收购的博客文章里写了。
Actually, I was gonna bring this up later, but, Javier wrote in the blog post announcing the acquisition.
他写了这几句话，我来念一下。
He these sentences here that I'll read.
他说，十八个月前，我们开始组建团队，打造产品，围绕着一个想法，就是让移动邮件变得更好。
He said eighteen months ago we started building a team and a product around the idea that we could make mobile email better.
今天，这段旅程作为更大组织的一部分继续前行，借助技术、人才和市场覆盖，将Acompli的愿景带给全球数亿移动用户。
Today that journey continues as part of a larger organization with the technology, talent, and market reach that will help us take the the vision of Acompli to hundreds of millions of mobile users across the world.
我在准备这期节目读到这段时，我就想，每次收购公告里你都能看到类似的话。
And I just thought when I read that as we were researching this episode, you see some version of that in every acquisition that gets announced.
哦对，我们会获得规模和资源，真正让我们影响到更多用户。
Oh yeah, we, you know, we're gonna get the scale and the resources that are really gonna enable us to impact many more users.
通常这些话挺空洞的，但在这里，真的，要夸夸你和微软，确实给了他们这些，但真的很少看到团队像哈维尔和Acompli团队那样拥抱这一切。
And usually it's pretty hollow, but but here, you know, kudos to you and to Microsoft for really giving a, giving them that in truth, but, but it's really rare to see the team embrace this as much as as as Javier and the Acompli team have.
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我很感激，这确实是我们的初衷。
I I appreciate that, and it really was the intention.
不过，规模上确实有差距，因为全球有十亿Office用户。
You know, there is a bit of a scale difference too, though, because there are a billion users of Office across the planet.
所以，如果你想让自己的愿景得以实现，想想那些企业用户，他们会说，嘿。
And so if you were somebody who wanted to see your vision get delivered, just think about it just in the context of business users that say, hey.
我在用Office，现在微软说我们有一个很棒的iPhone和Android版Outlook客户端。
I'm running Office, and now Microsoft says we have a great Outlook client for iPhone and for Android.
这基本上就是认可那个产品，认为它就是他们应该用的。
You're basically just sanctioning that product as being the product that they should use.
Acompli的厉害之处在于，它拥有庞大的用户群，或者说从强大的核心出发，用户群增长迅速。
Now the great thing about Acompli is it had a huge user base and or quickly growing user base from a strong core.
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所以我们俩都能利用这一点，在移动端迅速站稳脚跟。
And so we were both able to take advantage of that in terms of getting a a stronger footprint in mobile right there.
不过，你知道，哈维尔说得对，光是宣布这个消息并开始随Office一起分发，就带来了很大的杠杆效应。
But there you know, Javier was right in terms of the leverage that came from just announcing it and starting to distribute it with Office, etcetera.
我们给了他很大的推动力，同时也利用了他们给我们的推动力。
It we gave him a big boost, and we took advantage of the boost that they gave us as well.
我很好奇，当你做这次收购的时候，哈维尔之前在Netscape和VMware的背景，尤其是VMware的经历，有没有影响到你的决定？
I'm curious as you were when you made the acquisition, did Javier's background from Netscape and then from VMware especially, did that play into it?
你们微软在收购这家公司的时候，有没有把他看作一个潜在的领导者？这是不是一个考虑因素？
Did you did did you, Microsoft, see him as a potential leader when you when you bought the company, and was that a factor?
当然，我们在尽职调查的过程中肯定会考察人才，特别是具体的人才。
Well, we definitely look at the talent the specific talent as part of our due diligence process.
不过我不能说，有时候我们确实会为了人才而收购，就像我之前说的，人才是收购的主要原因。
I would not say that we, there are times when we actually do look for talent as the price I discussed earlier, talent as the primary reason for doing an acquisition.
这次收购的主要原因是因为他们有一个很棒的产品，而且这个领域和我们非常互补。
The primary reason for this acquisition was they had a great product in a in a space that we thought was super complementary to us.
所以，你知道，这就是我们这么做的原因。
And so, you know, that's the reason to do it there.
但我们肯定会关注人才，想办法留住那些关键人物。
But we definitely look at the talent and figure out how do we retain those key people along the way.
还有一点我想说的是，有一个问题经常被提出来，至少在微软是这样，我相信其他地方也一样，就是有时候你会觉得可以买第二好或第三好的人、产品或公司。
The other thing that I would say is there's this whole question that often comes up, at least at Microsoft, and I'm sure elsewhere, is there are times when you think you can buy the second best or the third best person or product or company.
但有时候，你知道，你就是需要买最好的。
And there are times when you know, you just need to buy the best.
而这次的情况就是，我们想买的是这个领域的领导者。
And this is a case, all three of those are the case where we wanted to buy the leader in the space.
从这个意义上说，如果这是你的首要目标，而且你相信你得到了一个很棒的团队，那么这次收购就自然而然地成功了。
And in that sense, if that's your first and foremost goal and you believe you got a great team, then the acquisition kind of rights itself.
这完全合情合理，而且结果非常好。
It's it just makes a ton of sense, and it and it works out super well.
这次的情况就是这样。
And that's what kinda what happened in this case.
我想再深入探讨一下这个问题。
I I wanna push on that a little bit.
对。
Yeah.
为什么拥有绝对最好的客户端如此重要？比如Wunderlist、Outlook的iPhone版，还有Sunrise，我猜它最终也会变成Outlook。这些可都是我们的免费产品，能访问微软的服务，也能访问其他服务。而我们的收入主要来自Office 365订阅，这些订阅也可以通过多种客户端访问。那为什么还要这么重视客户端呢？
Why is it so important to have the absolute best clients, Wunderlist and Outlook Outlook for iPhone, and and Sunrise, I guess that'll eventually just be an Outlook, when those are our free products that can access both Microsoft services and other services, and the money is made on Office three sixty five subscriptions, which can also be accessed by a variety of clients?
问得好。
That's a good question.
我觉得最重要的是，我们现在生活在一个用户主动选择应用的时代，尤其是在电子邮件这类领域，这种个人选择的力量极其重要，甚至在某些方面比微软官方推广自己的邮件解决方案更有影响力。
I think above all, we now live in a world where individual pull of applications is, in particular categories like email, is incredibly important and in some ways more important than the push that can happen from Microsoft saying this is our solution for email.
所以这是很重要的一部分原因。
And so that's a big piece of it.
所以当你看到这
So when you see That's this a
确实是个很大的思维转变。
big mindset shift.
对，确实是这样。
Yeah, it is.
确实如此。
It is.
这不是说，你知道，有些地方我们认为我们可以通过推动创新来开拓市场，你知道，定义创新，实现创新，并创造一个品类。
It's not you know, there are places where we think we can, quote, unquote, make the market by driving innovation you know, defining innovation, delivering on it, and making a category.
我觉得SharePoint可能就是一个例子。
I think SharePoint was probably an example of that.
在其他一些地方，别人在定义这个品类应该是什么样子，尤其是在移动设备这样的形态上。
There are other places where other people are establishing what that category looks like, particularly on form factors like mobile.
你只需要认识到这一点，然后说，这就是我们想要做到最好的地方。
You just recognize it and say, This is a place where we just want to get the best.
另外，你总是想给自己创造一切优势来做好事情。
The other thing is you always wanna give yourself every advantage to do well.
在这种情况下，如果你还要面对一个拥有强大用户吸引力的领先者，那就真的不值得将就于第二好的应用。
And in that case, if you're also having to overcome the fact that there's a leader in front of you that's got incredible end user pull, it's just not worth settling for that second best app.
确实是这样。
It's true.
如果你是在跟随别人的脚步，那么客户端应用其实就是消费者体验的门面。
If you're kind of following in the footsteps there, the client app is really the front door to the consumer experience.
所以我觉得，客户端应用总是有可能开始优先考虑其他服务。
So I guess there's always that risk that client app could start prioritizing a different service.
也就是说，到那个时候，你就不再拥有那个客户关系了，除非你是拥有客户端界面的领导者。
Mean, you you don't own that customer relationship at that point unless you're you're the leader with the the client interface.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得那是一种不同的收购方式，这并不罕见。
I think that's a different kind of acquisition, which isn't unheard of.
有时候你可以收购一个应用，但我觉得我们从来不会这么做。
There there are sometimes when you can acquire an application, and I don't think we ever do it.
我想不出我们曾经纯粹为了把某个东西从竞争对手手中夺走，或者阻止它独立而收购过任何东西。
I can't think of a case where we have ever acquired anything purely for the sake of getting it out of the hands of a competitor or keeping it from being independent.
在某些情况下，这算是一个不错的副产品，因为我们觉得有充分的理由拥有这个应用。
It is a kind of nice byproduct in some cases where we think there's a good reason to have this application.
而且，顺便说一句，我们宁愿对方没有它。
And by the way, we'd rather the other guy didn't have it.
但我想不起来有哪一次这是主要的原因。
But I don't think I can't think of a single time when that has been a predominant reason.
这算是一个不错的额外好处，如果你愿意这么说的话。
It's kind of a nice bonus, if you will.
你说这个真的很有意思，我们上一期节目是关于YouTube的。
It's it's really interesting, that you say that the the last episode we did, was on YouTube.
对。
Yep.
YouTube的一个很酷的地方在于，由于维旺迪和YouTube以及最终谷歌的诉讼，关于这家公司和这笔收购，有大量公开可用的信息。
And one of the really cool things about YouTube is there's all of this publicly available information about, about the company and about the acquisition because of the lawsuit, the Viacom and and YouTube and then ultimately Google lawsuit.
而且，这很有趣。
And, it's interesting.
埃里克·施密特作证说，收购YouTube以及支付那个价格的关键原因之一，跟你说的正好相反，是为了防止它落入其他人手中。
Eric Schmidt testified that one of the key reasons both both for the acquisition and for the price they paid for YouTube was the opposite of what you're saying was to keep it out of other people's hands.
真的吗？
Really?
你说了他们想防止它落入谁的手中吗？
Did you say whose hands they want to keep it out of?
他，我觉得他没有点名具体的竞争对手，但暗示是其他大型科技公司。
He I don't believe he named specific, competitors, but, implied that they were other very large technology companies.
我坚持我的观点。
I I I stand by.
我想不出我们有任何收购是出于那个原因。
I can't think of an acquisition that we've done for that reason.
归根结底，我还要说的是，微软是一家以产品和技术驱动的公司。
At the heart of it, the other thing I would say is Microsoft is a we are a product and a technology driven company.
我们在每个产品组里试图做的是，讨论中的主导主题，如果你愿意这么说的话。
What we're trying to do within each of the product groups is what is the dominant meme, if you will, about the discussions that we have.
就像如果你负责Office业务，或者你是团队的一员，你总是会想着自己的产品，怎么让它更强，怎么让它更好。
It's like if you own the office business or you're part of the team, you're always thinking about your own product and how do you make it stronger, how do you make it better.
你不会想着怎么把它当作一步棋来用，怎么通过收购来作为一步棋，防止别人得到它。
You're not thinking about how you use it as a chess move, how you would make an acquisition to be a chess move to keep something out of somebody else's reach.
我不知道，Ben，你当时也在场。
I don't know, Ben, you were there.
你还记得我们有过这样的收购吗？
Do you remember ever having such an acquisition?
没有，我在的时候没有。
No, not while I was there.
而且我也想象不到，想想Office for iPad团队的其他成员，如果我们当时买了那些我们看过的、表现一般但还算不错的iPad办公克隆产品之一，然后试图把他们融入团队，那肯定会一团糟。
And I can't imagine too, just thinking about the rest of the Office for iPad team, if we had bought one of the weird office clones for iPad that we were looking at as the not doing so well but decent competitive landscape and tried to bring them into the team, would have been really messed up.
对。
Yep.
另外，收购期间是有一定风险的。
The other thing about it is there's a certain amount of risk in an acquisition period.
所以你得把所有有利因素都握在手里，因为接手的时候总会有各种事情来捣乱。
And so you want everything going for you, because there's always going to be things that help mess it up when you bring it in.
所以，如果收购是出于某种不可告人的目的，比如从别人手里抢东西，而不是基于你想主动、积极地用产品做什么，那在我看来这算盘打得可不怎么样。
So having some ulterior motive, which is pulled out of somebody's hands versus being led by what you wanna proactively and positively do with the product, it just doesn't seem like a very good calculus to me.
不过，也许埃里克当年买下YouTube的时候，心里就是这么想的。
But, maybe that's what Eric, really had in mind when he bought YouTube.
我也不清楚。
I don't know.
你知道，这事儿对他来说好像结果还挺不错的。
You know, it seemed to work out for him pretty well.
所以嘛，
So
他们，他们后来还加了，嗯，
They they add on Well,
我们对那个评价不是特别高。
we graded that one not super highly.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
对。
Yeah.
我们给了它一个C，至少我是这么给的。
We we gave it a c, at least I did.
哇。
Wow.
你们打分可真严格。
You guys are tough graders.
十年后，YouTube还只是个收支平衡的业务。
YouTube, ten years later, is a breakeven business.
他们在那项业务上亏了不少钱。
They've lost a lot of money on that business.
嗯，我想确实如此。
Well, I guess that is true.
那包括广告在内，按年度算能收支平衡吗？
And is it breakeven on an annual basis including advertisements?
根据我们的研究，是的。
As far as our research could determine, yes.
有意思。
Interesting.
我对这个领域关注得不是特别紧。
I don't follow that space super closely.
这个业务里有很多环节。
So A lot of, a lot of cogs in that business.
我想也是。
I suppose that's true.
无论是技术方面，还是内容和人才方面。
Both on the technology and on the content and, talent side.
好了，听众朋友们。
Alright, listeners.
现在是介绍我们ACQUIREED新合作伙伴Legora的好时机，这是一个代理操作系统，正在重新定义全球顶尖法律团队的工作方式。
Now is a great time to talk about a new partner of ours here on ACQUIREED, Legora, the agentic operating system that is redefining how the world's best legal teams work.
是的。
Yep.
很明显，AI将会彻底改变法律行业。
It's sort of obvious that AI is gonna completely change the legal industry.
我猜你们很多人都在用某种AI聊天工具处理合同。
I bet most of you listening have dropped a contract into some sort of AI chatbot out there.
Legora从这个洞察出发，提出了一个问题：如果真正从零开始为法律行业打造这样的能力，会怎么样？
Legora took that insight and asked the question, what if you really built something with that power from the ground up for the legal industry?
创始人做了伟大的创始人该做的事，那就是极度关注客户需求。
So the founders did exactly what great founders do, operate with obsessive customer focus.
他们在一家大型律师事务所里待了几个月。
They embedded inside a massive law firm for months.
他们和律师们坐在一起，观察实际工作是如何完成的。
They sat with the lawyers just watching how the work really gets done.
就是这样，你
And that's how you
才能得到客户喜欢的功能，比如表格审查，你放进去一个文件夹，里面有几百份合同，它就能把每个关键条款拉到一个表格里，律师可以直接操作。
get features that customers love, like tabular review, where you drop in a folder of hundreds of contracts, and it pulls every key term into a grid a lawyer can actually work with.
Legora在这里的赌注很有意思。
Legora's bet here is interesting.
因为它让每个律师能处理更复杂的事情，所以每个人都能提高工作质量，做更有价值的工作。
Since it lets each lawyer handle more complexity, any given person can increase the quality of their work and do higher value work.
这意味着，即使每个任务花的时间更少，整体能做的也更多。
And this means that the pie can grow even as each individual task takes less time.
他们最近推出了Legora Agent，提供更强的智能和性能。
And they recently launched Legora Agent, offering greater intelligence and performance.
这个代理让律师设定一个目标，然后它就能处理规划、执行和交付最终产品。
The agent lets lawyers set an objective, then it can handle the planning and the execution and delivery of the final product.
法律团队能保持完全的控制和透明度，因为他们在需要判断的地方仍然参与其中。
Legal teams get to maintain full control and transparency since they're still involved where judgment is required.
而且Legora能在你已经在用的地方工作。
And Legora works where you already work.
你可以在Microsoft Word里使用它，无论是修改还是起草文件。
You can use it within Microsoft Word while redlining or drafting.
Legora早期的数据本身就说明了一切。
The early Legora numbers essentially speak for themselves.
当他们和最大的竞争对手进行正面试点时，他们赢了70%的情况。
When they have a head to head pilot with their top competitor, they win 70% of the time.
Legora现在有超过10万名律师在使用，来自50个国家的1200个法律团队。
Legora now has over a 100,000 lawyers on the platform from 1,200 legal teams in 50 countries.
而且疯狂的是，他们在大约18个月内，年经常性收入从100万增长到了1亿。
And crazily, they went from 1,000,000 to a 100,000,000 in ARR in about eighteen months.
这数字真是疯狂。
Truly insane numbers.
这才是真正的考验。
And that is the real test.
很多东西演示起来效果很好，但关键问题是，忙碌的律师在紧要关头是否真的会去用它，或者合伙人是否信任它，再去见重要客户。
Plenty of things demo well, but the question is whether a busy associate actually reaches for it during crunch time or whether a partner trusts it before going into a conversation with a major client.
如果你的法务团队想了解一下，不管你是律所还是公司内部法务，都可以去 legora.com/acquired 了解更多，告诉他们你是 Ben 和 David 介绍来的就行。
If your legal team wants to check it out, whether you're a law firm or you're in house at a company, you can learn more at legora.com/acquired and just tell them that Ben and David sent you.
接下来我们进入另外两个我们节目里常做的环节。
Let's move on to, we're gonna do, two other, categories that we like to do on the show or or segments.
首先是，我和 Ben，还有 Kurt，你也可以一起加入。
First is, Ben and I both and Kurt, you're welcome to join in too.
我们会给每个收购案分配一个类别。
We assign a category to each acquisition we're looking at.
我们通常用的类别是人员、技术、产品和业务线，另外我们还会留一个“其他”选项。
And the the categories we typically use are people, technology, product, and business line, and we give ourselves an out of an other.
Ben，你先来？
But Ben, you wanna go ahead?
好的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
这是一次产品收购。
This is a product acquisition.
虽然附带了一些不错的东西，但OA，也就是Outlook Web Access应用，确实不太好用。
There's nice things that came along with it, but OA, the Outlook Web access app, was just not good.
作为在微软工作过一段时间的人，我经常收到用IRM加密的邮件，所以我在手机上装了那个老版的Outlook Web Access，就为了能读加密邮件，然后我恨不得马上退出那个应用。我就像是在为自家球队加油一样。
And as someone that was at Microsoft and using it for quite a while, I was getting a lot of encrypted mail in in IRM, and so I had that that old Outlook Web Access installed on my phone just to read the encrypted mail, and then I'd get out of there as fast as I And I'm like rooting for the home team.
我特别支持自家产品，但看到其他那么多优秀的邮件客户端，真是觉得挺遗憾的。
I'm so hard, and it was a shame seeing all these other really great mail clients out there.
那正是Mailbox和Acompli兴起的时候，而它们对我的很多邮件来说都没什么用。
And this is right when Mailbox and Acompli were popping up, and useless for a lot of my mail.
我记得作为Madrona的Exchange用户，那真的很让人沮丧，因为我那些在创业公司工作的朋友都在用Mailbox或者Gmail应用，而且体验都很好。
I remember even just as an exchange user at Madrona, I mean it was really frustrating because all my friends who were working at startups were using Mailbox or the Gmail app and they were great.
而且你看，这个收购来得正是时候。
And look, it came not a moment too soon.
对我来说，Acompli在收购前和收购后我都在用。
I think that for me, Acompli, I was using it before the acquisition, I was using it after the acquisition.
我觉得特别厉害的是，从被收购到他们搞清楚要变成什么样、时间表怎么安排、人员怎么配置，你通常觉得这得花六个月左右。
I thought it was super impressive, the turnaround time from going from being a acquisition where they were trying to work out exactly what it was gonna turn into, what the timelines were gonna look like, and what the people were gonna look like, you can kind of like, you always figure, oh that'll take like six months or so.
结果两个月内就作为Outlook for iPhone发布了，新闻里都在说他们只是换了个标签。
Within two months it shipped as Outlook for iPhone, and all the news stories were kind of funny that, Oh, they just slapped a new label on it.
也许他们确实只是换了标签，但谁在乎呢？
Maybe they did, but who cares?
它很好用。
It was great.
说得很有道理。
That's a really good point.
到了某个阶段，你不想去动已经成功的东西。
At some point, you don't want to mess with success.
要让它成为微软产品，有一堆法律上的事情要做，那可能就是花时间的地方。
There's a certain set of legal things you got to do to make it a Microsoft product, and that's probably what took the time.
但是要继续给人们他们喜欢的东西。
But keep giving people what they love.
对。
Yeah.
那我接下来讲吧。
So I'll go next.
我很好奇，Ben，特别是Kurt可能会在这个问题上跟我争论，但我这次要跳出常规思维。
And I'm curious, Ben and particularly Kurt may beat me up for this one, but I'm gonna go out of the box on this one.
我打算把它归类为“其他”。
I'm gonna call it an other.
而且，我写的是“组合套餐”，因为不仅是因为它涉及多次收购，包括Sunrise和Wunderlist，而且我实际上认为，就像每次收购一样，这里有一些元素，但这次他们真的涵盖了所有类别。
And, and I wrote down, Combo Meal, because I not only because it was multiple acquisitions, if you include Sunrise and and Wunderlist, But I actually think there are elements of this that as there are in every acquisition, but here that they really hit on every category.
我们已经讨论了很多这些类别了。
We've talked about a lot of them already.
我认为原因是，这真的是对一条业务线的振兴，不是创造新的业务线，而是对整个业务线的重新思考，在这种情况下，Outlook是更广泛的Office未来的一部分，在一个移动优先、云优先的世界里。
I would say the reason for this is it was really a revitalization of a business line, not a creation of a new one, but a rethinking of an entire business line in this case being Outlook as part of the broader office future on on a in a mobile first cloud first world.
而且，你知道，其中一部分是技术，很大一部分是人，就像我们说的，还有产品。
And, you know, part of that is technology, and part of that big part of that is people as we've talked about, and product as well.
所以我就选套餐式收购吧。
So I'm gonna I'm gonna go with combo meal.
我觉得这有点道理。
I think there's something to that.
我的意思是，这明显主要是产品收购，因为我们当时有非常明确的目标要收购，但显然它和Office业务的其他部分以及Office产品有协同效应。
I mean, there is there's clearly I would say it's predominantly a product acquisition because that was we we had in mind something very specific we wanted to acquire, but there's clearly synergies with the other parts of the office business and so and and office products.
想想看，当你下载一封邮件时，它带有附件。
So think about the fact when you download a piece of email, it has an attachment.
我们想打开Word来阅读那个附件。
We wanna fire up Word to read that attachment.
有一种方式可以把这些场景连接起来，这正好符合你的套餐式理论。
There's a way of of kind of bringing linking those scenarios together that kind of goes towards your your combo meal theory.
但这也说明，你需要在移动设备上建立立足点，在第一个工作负载上，也就是人们最先使用的那些，我认为前三个就是我们通过这三笔收购获得的。
But it also said you you need to establish a footprint on mobile devices in the first workload, if you will, that that people use or the first three, I would say, are the three that we we acquired in these three acquisitions.
所以从这个意义上说，这也是在重新激活这些业务。
And so in that sense as well, it was in reenergizing the businesses also.
所以我觉得，这确实有点道理。
So I guess I would I think there's something to that.
这也许是个套餐，但核心是产品交易。
It's a it's a maybe it's a combo meal, that has at its heart a a product deal.
也许我们可以叫它快乐餐。
Maybe we call that a happy meal.
这挺有意思的。
That is interesting.
你是说，你在那里谈到了移动端的关键场景。
You mean, you you talk about the the key scenarios on mobile there.
就像，你知道，现在Office是一个完整的生产力套件，也是一个轻量级的移动生产力套件，而这些是完全不同的应用。
It's like, you know, now Office is a full productivity suite and a mobile lightweight productivity suite, and those are dramatically different applications.
我也很喜欢你用的那个框架，关于工作负载的。
I love the framing too that you have, of of workloads.
那你的移动端工作负载是什么？
And what's your mobile workload?
我觉得Office的移动应用，像Word、PowerPoint和Excel都很好，但我几乎从来不用它们。
And, I I think the Office mobile apps, Word and PowerPoint and Excel are great, but I almost never use them.
我的移动端工作负载是邮件、日历和待办事项。
My mobile workload is email, calendar, to do.
对。
Yep.
不是。
No.
我觉得你说得对。
I think that's right.
我们发现这些应用主要用于查看，而我们的应用在查看时的保真度比其他应用要好。
I the the usage, we find that the applications are primarily used for great viewing, which the fidelity of viewing in our applications is better than others.
然后是轻度编辑，这意味着有些场景，比如你在Word里读文档，有一堆评论或修订需要你查看、回复，并和其他一起编辑的人协作。
Then light editing, which means there are scenarios like imagine if you're reading a document in Word and there's a set of comments or edit revisions that you've got to take a look at and react to and edit with others that are working on the document.
就是这些场景，你才会用到Word、Excel和PowerPoint。
It's those kinds of scenarios for which you would use Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
PowerPoint，你知道的，演示模式用起来效果很好，但你需要重新思考使用场景。
PowerPoint, you know, presenting presentation mode works really well, but you have to rethink the scenarios.
不是说你想象着在移动设备上做和桌面上一样的事情。
It's not just that you imagine, using doing the same things on a mobile device that you do on your desktop.
它们就是不一样的。
They're just different.
我们继续吧，我想确保我们有足够的时间来聊我最喜欢的环节，也就是我们的技术主题部分。
Let's move on to I wanna make sure we have enough time for, my favorite part of the show, which is our our our technology themes segment.
库尔特，我们在这里的做法是每个人都要谈谈，而且，也请你加入进来。
And and Kurt, so what we do here is each of us talks about and and, again, you're please join in.
我们很想听听你的想法。
We'd love to get your thoughts.
你知道，这次收购或者这些收购，对你来说，突显了我们业务和技术方面的哪些永恒真理？
You know, kinda what does this acquisition or these acquisitions highlight for you in terms of the the eternal truths about our business and and technology.
我和Ben通常会先讲一个创业公司的例子，但这次我很好奇你的看法，毕竟你在大型科技公司待了那么久，又在我们这边做过风险投资，你觉得主题是什么？
And and Ben and I usually take a startup, Ben, on this, but it'll be, I'm curious on your take, know, having been at a big tech company for so long, having done a stint with us, you know, in the venture world, what themes are.
所以也许我和Ben先讲，给你一点时间思考。
So maybe Ben and I will go first, give you a little time to think about it.
但对我来说，我先讲吧，因为这个很快。
But you know, for me, I'll go because this will be quick.
其实我们已经提到了。
We've really already touched on it.
但所有这些收购让我看到的一个大主题是——Kurt，我想你说过，创新是分散的。
But one big theme that all of these acquisitions highlight for me is is I think, Kurt, I think you said it, you know, innovation is distributed.
现在它是全球性的。
It's global today.
你知道，Acompli在旧金山，Sunrise在纽约。
You know, Acompli is in San Francisco, Sunrise was in New York City.
Wunderlist在柏林。
Wunderlist is in Berlin.
我们还没聊到这个，不过，虽然它不属于同一类，但微软最近也收购了SwiftKey。
We haven't talked about it yet, but, and it's not in the same group, but Microsoft also recently acquired SwiftKey.
对。
Mhmm.
这是你接管我iPhone的另一个策略。
Another part of your strategy to take over my iPhone.
不过，他们在伦敦。
But, they're in London.
而且，再说一次，SwiftKey我不太了解，但之前所有收购的计划都是让这些团队留在原地。
And and again, don't know about SwiftKey, but the plan with with all of the previous acquisitions is keep these teams where they are.
而且我觉得，在这个移动优先、云优先的世界里，一个结果就是，有了GitHub、Slack、Dropbox、AWS，当然还有Office和Skype。
And I think in a world of, you know, in the a consequence of this mobile first cloud first world is, you know, with GitHub, with Slack, with Dropbox, with AWS, and, yes, with, you know, Office and Skype.
创新可以来自雷德蒙德、山景城、旧金山和西雅图，也可以来自柏林、伦敦和纽约。
You know, innovation can come from Redmond and Mountain View and San Francisco and Seattle, but also Berlin and also London and also New York.
重要的不是地点，而是产品的质量。
And what's important so much the location, it's about the quality of the products.
我记得我们和Ed Fries聊过Bungie，当时保持Bungie的文化有多重要，但他们还是得搬到Redmond那边去。
And I think about when we talked with Ed Fries about bungee and how important it was to keep the bungee culture, but they had to move them down the street to Redmond.
你知道，要是今天的话，他们可能就留在芝加哥了。
You know, today they would have stayed in Chicago.
对我来说，这个主题就是五年前我们反复听到的那个，现在又往上提了一层。
The one for me is, you know, translating a theme that we heard about over and over and over again five years ago, kinda one level up the stack.
最近这个词不太上新闻了，就是“自带设备”，因为大家都知道，BYOD时代已经来了，人们自己选硬件，带自己的硬件去上班，而且长期以来，现在也还是，对IT人员来说简直就是噩梦。
It's been out of the news cycle recently, the phrase bring your own device, because we all know that, yes, the BYOD world is here to stay, and people choose their own hardware, bring their own hardware to works, and for a long time, and kinda still, it's a nightmare for IT folks.
我觉得我们又往上走了一步，现在真的是“自带客户端”了。
I think we've taken one step further on the stack, and it's really bring your own client.
在可能的范围内，除了某些特别安全的应用程序，消费者的期望就是，我选择我的数据以什么方式呈现给我，而且我看的数据是来自一个指定的服务。
And to the extent possible, except for certain very secure applications, the consumer expectation is that I choose the view in which my data is presented me, and I view that data that is from a service that is mandated.
所以要么你自己作为消费者选服务，你选Office 365或者Dropbox，或者各种邮件服务，要么你为公司工作，公司有一堆服务，你不一定认为那堆服务会附带一堆指定的客户端，你反而期望，我自己选软件来用那些服务。
So either you choose your own service as a consumer and you you you choose Office three sixty five or Dropbox or or you know, a variety of different mail mail services, or like you work for a company and that company has a set of services, you don't necessarily assume that that set of services comes with a mandated set of clients, and you sort of expect, I choose my own software to consume those services.
对我来说，我觉得这个之所以这么重要，是因为如果人们会选三个最好的应用来用他们的服务，那能拥有统一的体验，并且能提供两个或三个之间最好的连接，那就太好了。
And I think for me, the reason why I think that this was so important is if there are three best in class applications that people are gonna choose to consume their services, it's kind of great to own the unified experience and be able to provide all the best connections between the two or the three possible.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这真的很重要。
I think this is really important.
你知道吗？
Know?
当然，桌面操作系统的战争早就结束了，但移动操作系统的战争也结束了，而且没有人赢。
Certainly the desktop operating system wars have been over for a long time, but, you know, the mobile operating system war is over too and nobody won.
现在计算和技术领域的热点、动态，以及技术如何与消费者和产品结合，已经不再是iOS、Android、Windows、Mac、平台，甚至浏览器对桌面对移动这些了。
Like the the the points of interest and, dynamicism in in computing and and and technology, the sort of technology meeting consumers and products these days, it's not, you know, iOS or Android or Windows or Mac or platforms or even browser versus desktop versus mobile.
真正的焦点已经转移到了应用层，而且可能很快就会转移到消息层。
It's really shifted to the app layer and it may soon shift to the messaging layer.
我们拭目以待吧。
We'll see.
不。
No.
我觉得你们说的都有道理，而且那些都是正确的观点。
I think there's something to to what all of you said, and I think those are those are all correct things.
对我来说，这个有点难判断。
For me, it's hard for me in this one.
如果要说一个主题的话，我觉得就是好产品最终一定会脱颖而出。
The thing that if there's a theme for me, it's that good products rise to the top inevitably.
你看像Acompli、Sunrise、Wunderlist这样的产品，你一看就会觉得，哇，这真是个很棒的产品。
And you look at one of these products like Acompli, like Sunrise, like Wunderlist, and you just look at them and say, wow, this is a great product.
你知道，当我们下载一个新应用，它改变了你的工作方式，改变了你和别人协作的方式，等等，我们都会有那种兴奋感。
And you know, it's that excitement that we all have when we download a new app and it changes how you work, it changes how you work with others, etcetera.
而每一个这样的案例，这些产品都是那种类型的。
And each case of these, these were products like that.
所以作为一个主题，我觉得这些产品是由那些真正深入思考用户如何使用它们的创意艺术家精心打造的，他们充满热情，走出去，获得了全球数千万甚至数亿用户的机会。
So as a theme, I think it is these products well crafted by creative artists that really think deeply about how the user uses them, have that passion, they went out and they get that opportunity to be in tens and hundreds of millions of users across the planet.
所以这就是一个主题。
So that that's one theme.
这似乎就是那种反复出现的兴奋感，当你看到这样一款做得非常好的产品时，那种兴奋感，而且这些团队通过收购而成功，我认为这是其中一个关键部分。
It just seems like that recurring that excitement that you get when you see a product like this that's really well done, and to have that those teams succeed by part of the acquisition, I think, is one key part of it.
然后对我来说，第二点就是我们一直在学习如何最好地执行这类收购，而且我们在这方面不断进步。
And then the second one for me is just that we are constantly learning of what the best way to to execute these kinds of acquisitions is, and we constantly get better at it.
而且我认为，作为一家公司，我们通过这次收购又向前迈进了一步，我们认识到如何让员工保持活力？
And I think we as a company took another step at getting better at it with these acquisitions, recognizing how do we keep the people energized?
就像你说的，大卫，这是一个全球化的世界，我们让团队留在他们的家人所在的地方，留在他们所在的地方。
How do we, as as you said, David, it's a global world, and let's keep the teams where their families are and where they are.
并不是要把他们都带到雷德蒙德来。
It's not about bringing them all to Redmond.
所以我们也在不断改进。
So we continually get better about it as well.
与此一致的是，你知道，我们是一群工程师和产品人员，我们就是喜欢，你知道，你得到这些有才华的团队，你把他们带进来。
And consistent with that is, you know, we're a bunch of engineers and product people and we just love to, you know, you get these talented teams, you bring them in.
而且，这种进步的一部分也是让他们在我们公司担任领导职位，帮助我们所有人变得更好，并交付更好的产品。
And again, part of this getting better is to having them become in leadership positions too in our company and help us all get better and deliver better products as well.
对，这真的很有意思。
Yeah, it's really interesting.
想到微软以前的一些收购，再看看今天的世界，有个有趣的问题就浮现在我脑海里。
There's an interesting question that comes to mind in just thinking about some previous Microsoft acquisitions and then the world that exists today.
微软是一家业务组合非常多元的公司，覆盖了从企业到消费者，再到整个产业链的各个客户群体。
Microsoft is a company that has a diverse portfolio of businesses across many different customer segments from enterprise to consumer and kinda all the way up the chain.
这些业务并不是都有相同的优先级。
Not all these businesses have aligned priorities.
比如Windows，它的目标就是让所有应用在Windows上做到最好、最先发布。
I mean, for Windows, it's to have all applications be best in class and first on Windows.
而Office呢，则是要在所有平台上提供最完美的集成体验。
And for, you know, Office, it's to have the best possible integrated experience across all platforms.
当你进行这样一次收购时，你怎么确保所有这些组织的领导者和组织优先级都能一致，同意花将近5亿美元买一个生产力套件，而你是Windows部门的负责人，这钱花在iOS上，你怎么办？
How do you, when you do an acquisition like this, make sure that the leaders of all those organizations and that all the organizational priorities align around spending what comes to in total near $500,000,000 on a productivity suite that iOS when when you're a Windows, you know, an executive over in Windows?
是的。
Yep.
你得先有一套基本的前提，也就是你进行收购时所依据的根本假设。
Well, you come in with a set of premises that or the fundamentals about what the fundamental assumptions under which you're making the acquisition.
在这个案例中，对于这些应用来说，很明显跨平台是收购前提的关键部分。
And in this case, for these apps, it was clear the cross platform was a key part of the acquisition premise.
所以从这个意义上说，首先，这个收购必须得到那个特定产品组负责人的支持。
And so in that sense, one, it has to be championed by the leader of that particular product group.
在这个案例中就是Chi Lu，他必须给予强有力的支持。
So Chi Lu in this case, and there has to be strong support there.
同时，CEO也必须支持这个收购。
And it has to be championed by the CEO as well.
所以Satya必须审视这次收购，然后说，你知道，我喜欢这次收购。
And so Satya has to look at the acquisition and say, you know, I like this acquisition.
Terry Meyerson，我理解这不会直接帮到你。
And Terry Meyerson, I understand this doesn't specifically help you.
但我认为它会间接帮到你，通过让我们的服务更强大，让Windows和Windows版Outlook成为出色的体验，同时也能在移动设备上运行并保持相关性。
I think it indirectly helps you by making our services strong and making Windows and Outlook for Windows a great experience that also works on mobile devices and is relevant.
特里，给我们的听众介绍一下，他是负责Windows的。
Terry, for our listeners, is head of Windows.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
特里，特里负责Windows。
Terry Terry leads Windows.
但总是会有这种平衡，你一开始不会想到有些业务的价值主张可能不如其他业务那么强。
But there's always a balancing that happens, you go into it not thinking that there may not be as strong a value proposition for some of the businesses as others.
而且任何时候，只要公司像我们这么大，而且我们也不是唯一一家这么大的公司，就总会有这种优先级平衡的问题。
And any time you have a company that is as large as ours, and they're we're not the only one of this size, there's always gonna be this balancing of priorities that comes out.
我们一直在努力推动的是，不要让这种优先级平衡导致你在所有事情上都平庸。
The thing that you have to that we are constantly pushing towards is don't let that balancing of priorities mean that you're mediocre in everything.
你真的得说，比如，在奶酪业务中，为了让Office成为全球领先的生产力解决方案，我们必须有一个关于跨平台的精彩故事。
And you really have to say that, for example, in cheese business for this for the to for office to be the leading productivity solution on the planet, we've gotta have a great story around cross platform.
所以你真的要做到，就是让所有产品都做到卓越。
And so you really do, it's excellence for all.
不是把大家拉到一个平庸的水平，什么都做不好。
It's not about the balancing out at some mediocre level where nothing is great.
天哪，这个观点太棒了。
God, that's a great point.
这个思考方式真的很好。
That's a really good way to think about it.
谢谢，Kurt。
Thanks, Kurt.
不客气。
Sure.
我们是不是该收尾了？
Should we should we wrap up?
好的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那我们公布成绩吧？
Render our grades?
好。
Yeah.
不过在公布之前，我有个问题想问Kurt。
But before I do that, have a I have a question for for Kurt.
你知道，这次收购对我们节目通常讨论的案例来说，可能有点太早了。
So, you know, this this acquisition is typically too probably too early for the ones we usually do on this show.
我的意思是，通常我们喜欢看到一些实际成果，比如你能看看报表，发现他们以某个价格收购了公司，结果发现还有很多其他附加价值，而且我们可以明确地把这部分价值增长归因于被收购的资产，并且收购方在收购后获得了价值上的倍增。
I mean, usually, we like to see a little bit of proof in the pudding that you can, like, look at some spreadsheets and see, hey, you know, they bought the company for this much, and it turns out, there's a lot of other ancillary value, but we can definitely attribute this value gain to the acquired property, and there was a multiplier on the value of the acquisition for the acquirer post acquisition.
数学清晰，容易论证。
Great, clean math, nice to justify.
比如我们可以看看Instagram，现在在Facebook内部是数十亿美元的业务，而当初是以十亿美元收购的，然后说，好投资，各位。
You know, we can look at Instagram being a multibillion dollar business inside of Facebook right now and being acquired for a billion and go, great investment, guys.
对于这个业务，你知道，现在说好说坏都太早了。
How with this business, you know, it's it's definitely too early to say for sure one way or another.
我觉得我们需要等几年再看。
I think we need to wait a few years.
但是，你怎么看待成功指标呢？我们在这套应用上花了数亿美元。
But, you know, how do you look at the success metrics of, you know, we we dropped some number of hundreds of millions of dollars on this this suite of applications.
从财务回报的角度，你在看什么？
What are you looking for from a financial perspective on a return?
你又怎么去衡量它呢？
And how could you possibly measure that?
没法衡量。
You can't.
而且我们并不是对所有事情都追求财务指标。
And we don't look for a financial measurement on everything that we do.
实际上，我们明确有一套围绕性能的指标，还有一套是关于我们是否在品类中取得进展，或者所谓的“力量指标”，即用户在使用我们产品时是否感受到我们的优势。
In fact, we very explicitly have set of metrics that are around performance, and others that are around are we making progress in our category or, you know, so called power metrics of do we have strength among users in using our products?
而这个产品，围绕它的指标都属于后一类。
And this one, the metrics around these products are all in that latter category.
关键就在于有多少人在使用并且喜欢这个产品。
It's all about how many people are using and loving the product.
你甚至无法从数学上推导出它和Office销售额之间的间接联系，我们也不去尝试。
And you can't even draw the indirect, you know, mathematical connection to greater office sales, and we don't even try.
所以我们为这些产品设定的目标，是关于我们想要多少月活跃用户。
So we set goals that are for these products that are around how many monthly active users do we wanna have?
对。
Mhmm.
我们希望用户对产品的参与度达到什么水平？
What's the level of engagement that we wanna have with the products?
因为我们相信，如果这些用户很活跃，就会带动Office的销售。
Because we have confidence in the premise that if those are strong users, it will pull through, sales of Office.
我们确实会衡量客户情绪，比如，Office用户中有多少比例也在使用我们的移动客户端？
Now the place where we do do some measurements is around customer sentiment about, you know, do you what fraction of the Office users are also using our mobile clients?
你还可以衡量一个客户的价值，这个客户既使用核心的Office应用，也使用移动应用，或者他们是否使用OneDrive之类的。
You can also make a measurement of what the value is of a customer that is both a user of the core Office applications and the users of the mobile applications as well, or do they use OneDrive, for instance?
我们发现这些客户的价值更高，因为他们是Office更活跃的用户。
And we do find that the value of those customers are higher because they're more highly engaged users of Office.
所以如果你想用一个数学公式来表达，我想你也可以这么做。
And so that if you if you want to come up with a mathematical equation, I suppose you could.
我们通常不会这么看，但我们确实会做这些联合分析，分析不同产品之间的联系，以及这对特定用户作为客户的价值意味着什么。
We don't tend to look at it that way, but we do tend to do these, you know, conjoint analyses of of, you know, of the connections of the different products today and what that implies about the strength of that particular user as a customer.
有意思。
Fascinating.
这太酷了。
That is very cool.
你知道吗，这正是我们做这个节目的原因之一，就是为了聊这些话题。
And you know, it's great to, you know, I think this is one of the reasons why we started this show is to talk about stuff like this.
外界很难知道收购方在寻找什么，以及公司被收购后会怎样。
Know, it's so opaque what, what acquirers are looking for and what happens to companies post acquisition.
是的，谢谢你。
It's just yeah, it's thank you for that.
能听到这些见解真是太好了，你知道我们讨论收购类别时，更多是从理论角度出发的。
And it's great to get that insight into how you know we talk about categories of acquisition and we're thinking more from a theoretical perspective.
但你们对不同类型收购实际使用的衡量标准是什么呢？
But yeah, what really is the measurement that you guys are using for different kinds of acquisition?
对，确实因收购而异。
Yep, definitely differs by acquisition.
评分，Ben？
Grades, Ben?
评分。
Grades.
所以我会给自己一个正负的浮动范围。
So I'm gonna allow myself a, plus or minus factor.
这是评分可以上下浮动的容差，随着时间推移会有小幅调整，因为现在还为时过早。
That's the tolerance in which my grade can go up or down, in notches over time since we're kinda early.
我现在给它评个B+，上下浮动两档。
And I'm gonna rate it a b plus right now with a a two notch variation.
所以它可能会到A或者B-，但基本上就是A或B的水平。
So it could go go to an a or b minus, but it's it's it's solidly an a or a b.
我打算给个……你知道，我整期节目都在想这个。
I'm gonna go, you know, I've been thinking about this for the whole episode.
我要给个A，我这么说是因为我在拿它跟之前那期关于Siri的节目对比，那期我和Ben都做得很好。
I'm gonna give this an a and I'm gonna say that because I'm thinking about this in contrast to, we did an episode on Siri and Ben and I were That did both do so well.
我们俩当时对那个的评价都挺苛刻的。
We were both quite, quite harsh in our judgment of of that.
其中一个原因很明显，就是虚拟助手和语音计算是未来科技公司的重要方向，比如亚马逊什么的。
One of the reasons is clearly virtual assistants and voice based computing is a major paradigm that is important for technology companies going forward, you know, Amazon, blah blah blah.
但苹果在这方面确实做得不太好。
But Apple's really not done so great on that.
而相比之下，Office和微软一直是生产力领域的领头羊。
And I think about in contrast, Office and Microsoft having been the leader in productivity.
而且当时做这些收购的时候，你知道，我觉得微软当时面临很多威胁，来自各个方面的，比如Google Docs，还有像Evernote这样的初创公司，还有其他一些邮件、日历和任务管理应用，当时有好几个呢。
And when these acquisitions were made really, you know, I think I think Microsoft was under a lot of threat from a lot of different areas from Google Docs to startups like Evernote to the other mailing calendar clients and task lists out there of which there were several.
几年过去了，我现在是个百分百的苹果用户，我喜欢我的云服务、Dropbox和Slack。
And here we are several years later and I am a 100% an Apple guy, and I love my cloud services and Dropbox and Slack.
戴夫，你现在看的就是Google Doc。
Dave, you are looking at a Google Doc right now.
对，我正在看Google Doc。
And I'm looking at a Google Doc.
而且，Kurt Gross。
And yet, Kurt Gross.
你知道，
You know,
我开玩笑说过好几次了，但微软基本上掌控了我iPhone上的生产力工具。
I've joked about it several times but Microsoft basically owns my productivity on my iPhone.
我每天都用Wunderlist，整天都在用。
I use Wunderlist every single day all day.
我每天全天都在用iOS版的Outlook。
I use Outlook for iOS every single day all day.
它的日历功能才是真正的亮点。
And the calendaring features are are the real differentiator for it.
我用SwiftKey。
I use SwiftKey.
天哪。
Oh my god.
Outlook里的发送可用性功能简直太棒了。
Send availability in Outlook is like the best feature.
我把这个和Siri对比了一下，我觉得这真是巨大的成功。
And and I I contrast that with with Siri, and I just think it's been a huge, huge win.
所以还有很多工作要做，但干得好，Kurt。
So a lot of work to do to keep it up, but good job, Kurt.
好的。
Alright.
好吧，那我就收下了。
Well, I'll take those.
我想我会拿着这些去喝杯啤酒庆祝一下。
I think I'll take those and go grab a beer to celebrate.
不过，我希望你会再邀请我回来。
But, I hope you'll I hope you'll ask me back.
还有，Ben，我们可以庆祝你把成绩改成A了。
And, Ben, we can celebrate, you changing your grade to an a.
好的。
Alright.
听起来不错，谢谢。
Sounds Thank
谢谢你，Kurt。
you, Kurt.
好的。
Alright.
谢谢。
Thanks.
很高兴认识大家。
It's been a pleasure.
各位，再见。
See you guys.
好了，听众朋友们。
Alright, listeners.
现在是聊聊我们最喜欢的公司之一——Statsig 的好时机。
Now is a great time to talk about one of our favorite companies, Statsig.
对。
Yes.
最好的产品团队之所以依赖 Statsig，是有原因的，无论他们是在迭代核心产品功能，还是大规模发布 AI 驱动的体验。
There is a reason why the best product teams rely on Statsig, whether they are iterating on their core product features or shipping AI powered experiences at scale.
是的。
Yep.
在如今这个疯狂的AI时代，快速发布产品只是基本要求了。
In the crazy speed of today's AI world, shipping fast is just table stakes now.
持续构建和部署应用基本上已经没什么难度了。
It's basically trivial to build and deploy your app constantly.
真正的优势在于，你能多快了解到哪些改动真正给客户创造了价值，以及你能多快利用这些信息来指导下一步要发布什么。
The real advantage is how quickly you learn what changes actually created value for customers and how fast you can use that signal to guide what you ship next.
这就是Statsig发挥作用的地方。
This is where Statsig comes in.
它把实验、功能开关和产品分析整合到一个统一的系统中，让团队能够安全发布、严格测试，并直接将他们的改动与用户的实际行为联系起来。
It brings experimentation, feature flags, and product analytics into one unified system so teams can ship safely, test rigorously, and directly link what they changed to how users actually behaved.
所以，如果你想将学习能力变成自己的竞争优势，无论你是在构建新的AI体验，还是仅仅在优化现有的核心产品，都可以访问statsig.com/acquired开始使用。
So if you wanna make learning your competitive advantage, whether you're building new AI experiences or just evolving your existing core product, go to statsig.com/acquired to get started.
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