第四集：Bungie（与Xbox联合创始人Ed Fries对谈）

我就说，隔间？

And I'm like, With cubicles?

在微软，那是最低等级的待遇。

That was the lowest status thing you could have at Microsoft.

他们说，对，对，我们想要那种矮墙的隔间。

They're like, Yeah, yeah, we want cubicles with really low walls.

我说，你开玩笑吧。

I'm like, oh, you're kidding me.

我真希望几个月前就知道了。

I like, I wish I knew this a few months ago.

所以设施部门不得不把这地方的墙全部拆掉。

So the facilities literally had to tear the walls out of this place.

所以收购价格，Bungee之前从未披露过，就是你们支付的Bungee收购价，再加上你们对两栋楼进行的两次改造费用。

So the acquisition price, you know, never before disclosed at Bungee was was whatever you paid for Bungee, plus all the two remodels you did to buildings and

我的意思是，像微软这样的大公司做收购时，公司发展部门的人和人力资源部门的人真的太棒了。

I mean, great thing about, you know, working at a big company like Microsoft when it came to acquisitions, corp dev people were so incredible, the HR people were so incredible.

像我这样经营过生意的人，只要说一声，就能让事情办成。

Somebody like me who ran a business could just basically say, make this happen and it would happen.

他们会处理大量细节和各种棘手的问题，包括设施人员。

And they would deal with so many details and so many difficult things and facilities people as well.

就像说，把这些墙都拆掉。

It's like, make these walls go away.

墙会像魔法一样消失。

The walls would go away like magic.

所以这是一方面。

So that was one thing.

于是我们拆掉了所有墙壁，给了他们想要的空间，但你知道，每个微软团队都有一个支持他们的测试团队，这是微软文化中非常重要的一部分。

So we tore out all the walls and gave them the space that they wanted, but you know, every Microsoft team has has a test team that supports them, and it's a really important part of Microsoft culture.

但他们并不想要测试。

And, and they didn't want testing.

他们说，我们不要测试，我们不需要测试。

They're like, we don't want test we don't need testing.

我就说：是的，你们需要。

And I'm like, yeah, you do.

你们真的需要一组测试人员。

You really need you really need a group of testers.

这是我们在微软开发软件的方式。

This is the way we build software on Microsoft.

所有的工程师都是自己测试自己的代码吗？还是轮流负责测试？

Did all the engineers just test their own code or they trade testing responsibility around or

他们是怎么做的？

how did they work?

在游戏行业，尤其是那时候，这很常见。

Pretty typical in the game business, especially back then.

你知道的？

You know?

他们觉得测试人员就是一群高中生，但其实我们微软的测试人员是专业的。

It's like, they thought of testers as, you know, a bunch of high school kids, but but, you know, not professional testers like we had at Microsoft.

所以，哦，Bungie的人还希望获得对他们区域的安全访问权限。

And so oh, the other thing the Bungie guys wanted was they wanted secure access to their area.

他们希望只有Bungie的人，还有我，以及可能其他几个人，才能进入他们的区域。

They wanted the only Bungie people, and I and I suppose me and a few other people, could get into their area.

所以他们设置了需要刷卡才能进入的门。

So they had these doors that, you know, that were needed card key access to get into.

因此，他们不希望测试团队进入。

And so, anyway, they they didn't want the test team.

我说：行啊。

I'm like, fine.

我会给你一个测试团队，我就把他们安排在你们安全门的外面。

I'm gonna I I'm gonna give you a test team, and I'm gonna park them right outside your secure doors.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以他们会坐在你们门口外面。

So they're gonna sit right outside outside your doors.

结果，这个测试团队由一个叫哈罗德·莱恩的人领导，在《光环》初代开发期间，这个团队真正向Bungie证明了自己。

And what happened was that test team was run by a guy named Harold Ryan, and and the test team really proved themselves to Bungee over the period of that first halo.

他们向Bungie展示了专业测试团队究竟能做到什么程度。

They they showed them what a group of professional testers can really do.

举个例子，他们用一大堆Xbox主机搭建了一个庞大的渲染农场，将制作《光环》新版本的时间从大约八小时缩短到了半小时左右。

And, like like, an example is they built a giant render farm out of a a big pile of Xboxes, and the render farm brought the time to build to make a new build of Halo down from, I don't know, eight hours to a half an hour or something like that.

所以在《光环1》和《光环2》之间，他们把那堵安全墙移到了测试团队的一侧。

So, you know, so the next between Halo one and Halo two, they moved that wall, that secure wall to the side of the testers.

现在，测试团队成了大家庭的一员。

So now the testers were part of the family.

所以

So

这样的实际成果怎么样？

How's that how's that for tangible success?

而且即使在增加了测试人员之后，我认为Bungie最了不起的一点是，后来在2007年，它最终从微软独立了出来。

And and you'd still even even with the addition of testers, I mean, of the things that I think is so incredible about Bungee is later on in Bungie's history in in 2007, it ends up getting respun out from Microsoft.

当时，那里只有大约120人工作，包括测试人员在内。

And, when that happened, there were only a 120 people working there, I think, including the testers of it.

你知道现在Bungie的总裁是谁吗？

Do do you know who the president of Bungie is right now?

哈罗德·莱恩。

Harold Ryan.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

怎么样？

How about that?

太棒了。

That's awesome.

拥抱测试。

Embracing testing.

所以，总之，这就是我要讲的故事。

So, anyway, so that's this story for you.

当我们最初向游戏媒体展示《光环》时，很多人都持怀疑态度。

When when we first started showing Halo around to the game press, there was a lot of skepticism.

他们对微软进入主机业务本身就持谨慎态度。

They, you know, they were wary about Microsoft entering the console business to begin with.

他们认为我们根本不了解主机游戏，这确实是事实。

They thought we really didn't understand console games, which was true.

然后我们非常兴奋地向他们展示一款第一人称射击游戏，这原本是PC上的游戏类型，看起来就像一款PC游戏。

And then we're really excited to show them a first person shooter, which is a PC genre, you know, looks like a PC game.

但他们说：这既不是马里奥，也不是索尼克，这恰恰证明你们根本不懂主机游戏。

And, and they're like, this isn't Mario, this isn't Sonic, this is just proof you guys don't get it.

所以我们确实从媒体那里得到了很多负面反馈。

So we got a lot of pushback from the press, actually.

2001年的E3展上，我们机器上使用的显卡只有半速，因此在展会现场表现得并不好。

E3 two thousand and one, we we only had half speed graphics cards in the in the machines that we had at that time, and so it didn't show that well in the show floor.

媒体中对此的质疑声更多了。

There was more kind of rumbling in the press.

那时候还有Penny Arcade的漫画，里面的Penny Arcade作者对这款游戏评价很低。

There's there's Penny Arcade comics from that time where the Penny Arcade guys are really down on the game.

我不知道在你们的播客里能不能说脏话，但其中一个人直接说《光环》就是垃圾。

I don't know if I can swear on your podcast, but one of them just says Halo is shit.

所以到了发售前夕，没人能确定《光环》是否会成为我们的爆款作品。

And so and so coming into launch, it was very unclear whether Halo was going to be our hit title.

我的意思是，我们所有人下班后都在玩，心里也在想：这款游戏真有我们想的那么好吗？

I mean, we we you know, we're all playing it, you know, after hours and saying, you know, is this game as good as we think it is?

因为这游戏看起来太棒了。

Because this seems amazing.

但我们都是PC玩家，所以难免怀疑：我们是不是在自欺欺人？

But we're kind of all PC gamers, you know, and we're well, maybe we're drinking our own Kool Aid here.

也许主机玩家根本不会喜欢这种类型的游戏。

You know, maybe console gamers won't want this kind of a game.

在准备发售时，你们是否必须确定哪些游戏将作为不同营销渠道的主打作品，以及如何围绕平台进行宣传和展示？

Did you have to, in preparing for the launch, establish what was going to be your flagship game for varying marketing channels and and the way that you're talking about the platform and what you're showing off?

还是说在发布后，这种情况自然而然地出现了？

Or did that sort of organically fall out after you released

不。

No.

当然了。

Absolutely.

我们确实这么做了。

We did.

你知道，因为我们有一定的营销预算，所以最需要决定的是哪些游戏值得投放电视广告。

We you know, because we had a certain marketing budget and probably the biggest thing we had to decide was which titles we're gonna get TV.

而电视广告的预算，我们只够为少数几款游戏投放。

And the TV budgets, we could afford to do TV for just a couple titles.

因此，Oddworld和Halo在发布时都获得了同等的待遇，我们都为它们投入了大规模的电视宣传活动。

And so Oddworld and Halo ended up getting basically equal treatment at launch with big TV campaigns from us.

而Oddworld，可以说是我们对主机玩家群体中已知名气的开发商。

And, you know, Oddworld was kind of our well, this is a developer's known to console world.

你知道吗？

You know?

我应该说，这款游戏叫《Munch's Odyssey》。

I I should say the game the game was called Munch's Odyssey.

Oddworld是一家公司。

Oddworld's a company.

但你知道，所以还有Halo，我的意思是，我们其实也不太确定，这些游戏里哪个会为我们带来最好的表现。

But, you know, so that and then Halo, I mean, that's kind of the way we're we're sort of not sure, you know, which of these games is gonna is gonna do best for us.

是的。

Yeah.

还是不确定。

Still not sure.

首次付费。

Pay for first time.

在那种早期发布阶段，你怎么知道，以及多快就能知道这两款游戏哪一款会

In in in sort of that, like, early launch stage like that, how do you know and how fast do you know which of those two is gonna

一旦东西开始销售，评论家们拿到手后，情况就会很快明朗起来。

Well, once things start to sell and, you know, reviewers get their hands on it, it becomes becomes clear really quickly.

但尤其是在那些年代，营销方面存在很多滞后现象。

But especially back in in those days, there were there were a lot of things that, had a lot of lag when it came to marketing.

所以，任何印刷品，比如，都会有大约三个月的延迟。

So, anything that was in print, for example, it was maybe a three month delay.

如果你想要出现在邮寄广告或非邮寄广告中，比如说那种插入报纸、杂志等的圣诞目录，所有这些都需要提前三个月甚至四个月准备。

If you wanted to be in mailers or not mailers, but say like a Christmas catalog that gets inserted and inserted into newspapers and stuff like that, magazines, it was all like three months or four months.

因此，我们总是需要提前三四个月向营销团队确认游戏的上市时间。

So we always had to commit to the marketing team three or four months in advance when a game was going to ship.

如果那时我们没到位，某个宣传单已经投放了，但产品却没上架，我们可能会被罚款。

And then if we weren't there, if one of these circulars ran, but the product wasn't available in store, we could get fined.

这一直是我们开发流程中的一部分。

That was always built into our development process.

但现在的状况和以前不一样了，信息能立刻爆发式传播，而且你可以马上做出调整。

But it's not like today where information just goes boom out there right away and you can make changes right away.

实际上，有些东西是用油墨印刷出来的，然后堆在仓库里。

There was actually stuff printed with ink, sat in warehouses.

很难想象。

Hard to imagine.

我很好奇，我特别想问你，因为我们的节目主题是思考技术，虽然我们的节目显然大量涉及内容与创意——就像我们第一期做的皮克斯那样，但Halo和Bungie也蕴含着巨大的技术成分，新的技术。我想从你们的角度了解一下，我自己脑子里的故事是：Halo的单人体验确实不错。

I'm curious, I really want to ask you especially because the whole theme of our show is thinking about technology and while there's certainly a huge element of you know both Bungie and Halo and our very first episode we did Pixar of just content and creativity, there also is a huge element of technology in Halo and Bungie and new technology and I'm curious from your guys' perspective, know, to me the story that I write in my head is, you know, the single player experience of Halo is is good.

很棒。

It's great.

我会买这个游戏。

I'd buy the game.

我会玩它。

I'd play it.

但真正让Halo成功的是多人模式，以及联网多人模式。

But what made Halo is multiplayer and and networked multiplayer.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得我确实买过一个路由器，不，等等。

I I remember buying a router specific actually, no.

我没买路由器，我是从我爸爸的老东西堆里翻出来一个。

I didn't buy the router because I went through my dad's old bin and got one.

但要把四个Xbox连在一起，放在朋友家的地下室里做路由器，是的。

But, doing a router and streaming four Xboxes together in my friend's basement Yeah.

为了Xbox Live。

For Xbox Live.

所以当时唯一能这么做的方式是

So the only way to do that that

我觉得当时全美国的高中生都这么干过。

I think every high school kid in America did that at the time.

没错，就是这样。

That's exactly right.

我的意思是，那是少数几款你能这么做的游戏之一，因为Xbox Live是一年之后才推出的。

I mean, it was one of the only games that you could do that or, know, where because Xbox Live didn't come out for a year later.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

所以人们想出了各种办法，我记得你可以把Xbox连接到电脑上，然后人们会做这些PC连接，最终会实现

And so people came up with all kinds of I remember you could hook your Xbox to a PC, and then people would do the and then do these PC connections that would end up

在你的电脑上。

on your PC.

但那都是手工制作的。

But it was all, like, yeah, handmade.

你们在之前有没有认真考虑过两点：第一，和朋友一起玩的这种非凡体验；第二，这种体验在多大程度上塑造了Xbox Live和《光环2》的最终发布？在我看来，《光环2》是第一个真正实现随时随地与朋友联机对战的AAA级完整体验。

How much did you guys either a well, both a, think about that beforehand in terms of this incredible experience of playing with your friends, but then b, how much how much did that shape the eventual launch of Xbox Live and and Halo two, you know, being the to my mind, that first real triple a style fully realized experience of what playing with other people and your friends anytime you wanted could be.

所以，有几个方面。

So, I mean, a few things.

这个团队在不到两年的时间里完成了如此惊人的成就。

It's it's amazing how much that team accomplished in less than two years.

我的意思是，在游戏行业里，这点时间真的不多。

I mean, that is not very much time in a game business.

而且，你知道，他们不仅做了单人模式，还做了多人模式，甚至还有分屏和分屏多人模式。

And, you know, not only did they have the single player, but they had they had multiplayer, but they also had split screen and split screen multiplayer.

他们还有网络多人模式。

They had network multiplayer.

他们还做了分屏合作模式，而你甚至在《光环5》里都没有分屏合作模式。

They also had split screen co op play, which you you don't even have split screen co op play in Halo five.

这简直太离谱了。

It just like the shits.

是啊。

Yeah.

颇具争议地。

Controversially.

我的意思是，那款初代游戏里包含的内容真是太惊人了。

So, I mean, it was amazing what was in that first game.

但没错，在《光环一》发布后，他们开始与Xbox Live团队合作，协助他们开发《光环》以及游戏在Xbox Live上的运作方式。

But, yeah, after they shipped, Halo one, then, working on working with the Xbox Live team on helping them develop Halo or help helping them develop Xbox Live and develop how games would work on Xbox Live.

这对光环团队来说是一件大事。

That was that was a big thing for the Halo team.

他们与Xbox Live团队紧密合作。

They worked really closely with Xbox Live.

Xbox Live那边有很多光环粉丝，所以他们非常想和这群人一起工作。

Tons of Halo fans on the Xbox Live side, so they really wanted to work with a bunch of guys.

而且，那是一种相互尊重的体验。

And, you know, it was very mutual respect experience there.

你知道，《光环》续作的开发还早着呢，还要好几年。

You know, the pause Halo wasn't due for, you know, a few more years.

《光环二》还要好几年才发布，我可以稍微讲讲当时发生了什么。

Halo two wasn't due for a few more years, and I can talk a little about that, what happened there.

所以前几天有人提醒我，实际上我们第一方团队推出的首个Xbox Live游戏，正是我之前提到的那支FAFSA团队的作品。

So somebody reminded me the other day that actually the first Xbox Live title that we launched with our first party group was actually out of that that FAFSA team that I mentioned earlier.

第一个是机甲指挥官。

It was a mech commander was the first one.

但不管怎样，在《光环一》发布后，Bungie团队发生了几件事。

But anyway, meanwhile, the bungee guys go off after shipping Halo one, and a couple things happen.

杰森·琼斯，作为Bungie所有创意背后的天才，决定离开光环团队，去启动一个新项目。

Jason Jones, who's, you know, just the creative genius behind everything Bungie, decides he's gonna leave the the Halo team and start a new project.

于是他和一小群人另起炉灶，开始开发这个新项目。

And so he and a small group go go off on the side, they start to work on this new project.

与此同时，主要的光环团队开始开发《光环二》。

Meanwhile, the the Halo guys, the main Halo team, starts working on Halo two.

他们投入了几年时间，但在没有杰森带领的情况下，项目逐渐失控。

And they get a couple years into it, and it's kind of going off the rails without Jason running it.

于是杰森回来查看情况，那时距离原定发布日期还有一年左右，他对现状非常不满意。

So Jason comes back and he looks at it, and this is about a year before it was supposed to ship, and he's very unhappy with it.

团队也面临诸多问题。

And the team has a lot of problems.

他们在技术上尝试了太多东西。

They tried to do too many things technically.

他们尝试了一个根本行不通的新光照模型。

They tried to do this new lighting model that really didn't work.

我的意思是，你们讲这个故事的时候，好像一切都那么顺利，《光环一》出来了，然后《光环二》也出来了。

I mean, I I love you guys tell this story like it's so nice and smooth, and Halo one came out and Halo two.

但对我来说，这简直是一场噩梦。

You know, for me, it was like this nightmare.

就像《光环二》，一切都乱套了。

It's like Halo two, it's all screwed up.

你知道吗？

You know?

然后杰森回来了，他说：我能修好它。

And then Jason comes back, and he's like, I can fix this.

他重新梳理了一遍，几乎重做了《光环二》的很大一部分。

And he he goes through and just, like, you know, redos a whole big part of Halo two.

但为了做到这一点，他需要再花整整一年时间。

But in order to do it, he needs a whole another year.

所以游戏原本计划2003年发布，现在推迟到2004年。

So it's gonna instead of being out in 2003, it's gonna be out in 2004.

于是我不得不去找我的老板罗比，告诉他《光环2》得等到2004年才能推出，诸如此类的话。

And so I have to go to Robbie, my boss, and tell him he's not gonna have Halo two till 2004 and blah blah blah.

不管怎样，这并不是我最美好的回忆，但我很高兴你们喜欢这款游戏发布后的样子。

Anyway, it's not not my favorite memories, but I'm glad I'm glad you like the game when it came out.

所以，是啊。

So so yeah.

总之，杰森把项目拉回了正轨，他们最终推出了一款真正特别的游戏。

Anyway, that was you know, Jason got it back on track, and and they were able to bring out a game that was that was really special.

这太有趣了。

It's so so interesting.

大卫和我之前在聊，这跟上一集有个相似之处。

David and I were talking before this about a parallel to a previous episode.

实际上，我们第一个例子是迪士尼收购皮克斯。

Actually, our first one is Disney acquiring Pixar.

这其中有很多相似之处，因为这都是创意驱动的商业领域，你需要在内部进行创意工作室的工作，推出产品，并希望它能真正引起人们的共鸣。

And in so many parallels because it's a creative hit space business where you're doing the creative studio work in house and putting this thing out and hoping it really resonates with people.

而让这个过程有效运作的关键之一，是能够进行内部坦诚的对话，以及当项目偏离轨道时修复问题的机制。

And one of the things that makes that process work is the ability to have that honest conversation internally and the mechanisms by which you fix things when you're off the rails.

这里有一个令人惊叹的平行故事，就是《玩具总动员》当初被搁置的经历。

And there's this incredible parallel here to the the story of Toy Story as it was being dropped.

是的。

Yeah.

那时它完全失控了。

Where that went totally off the rails.

《玩具总动员2》。

Toy Story two.

不是。

No.

《玩具总动员》第一部。

Toy Story one.

哦，原版的。

Oh, original.

我相当确定。

I'm pretty sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我也读过这个。

Think I've read this too.

是的。

Yeah.

那时候伍迪很刻薄。

Where Woody was mean.

是的。

Yeah.

他们当时正在播放已制作完成的部分，你知道的，还没完全渲染和成型，但故事可以修改，可以推翻大量分镜脚本。

And they they were screening the the, you know, as far as they had gotten, and it wasn't fully rendered and fully realized, but the story they could change the story and rip apart a bunch of storyboards.

我认为延期了一年，因为当时看这部电影时，感觉就是不对劲，完全不对味。

And and I think delay a year because it was just like, you were watching the movie and it it didn't feel nice and it didn't feel right.

这并不是他们想要营造的体验。

It wasn't the experience they were trying to create.

他们收到了很多反馈，我想是来自卡曾伯格之类的。

And they were getting a bunch of feedback, think from Katzenberg or something.

而且情况确实一团糟。

And it was, yeah, all screwed.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

你其实并不想看到这些东西内部是怎么制作出来的。

You don't really want to see how this stuff is made on the inside.

你知道的。

You know?

就像是，哦，这个游戏太棒了。

It's just like, oh, this game is awesome.

你知道的。

You know?

一切都像在一天之内变魔法一样。

It's all magic in one day.

普通初创公司也是同样的情况。

Same thing in regular startups too.

没错。

Exactly.

我不想在这上面多花时间，因为这并不是故事的核心部分，而且那时候你已经离开微软了，但显然《光环2》尽管制作过程对你来说是一场噩梦，它在发布时还是成为了当时最成功的视频游戏，而《光环3》甚至超越了它，并帮助推出了Xbox 360。

What I I don't wanna dwell on this for too long because it's not a super core part of the story and you had left Microsoft by this point but know obviously Halo two despite the sausage making being a nightmare for you goes on to become the know the most successful I think video game of all time at that point when it was launched and then Halo three even eclipsed that and helped launch the Xbox three sixty.

但《光环3》之后，Bungie从微软独立出去了，而你也离开了，所以你可能不清楚，但就你所知，这到底是怎么发生的？为什么？

But then after Halo three, Bungie spins out of Microsoft and you were gone so you may not know but to the extent you do, how and why did that happen?

微软最终保留了对Bungie的股份，Bungie也继续通过《光环：致远星》和《光环：ODST》开发光环系列，但这一切是怎么发生的呢？

Microsoft ended up retaining a stake in Bungie and Bungie kept working on Halo through Reach and ODS But but how how did that happen?

好的。

Okay.

接下来我要告诉你们我所了解的这个故事，到目前为止，我谈的都是我亲自参与过的事情。

So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what I understand about the story and and, you know, everything up till now I've talked about stuff I was directly involved with.

现在我要讲的更多是我听来的信息。

Now it's it's more like things I've heard.

如果我哪里说得不够准确，提前向大家道歉。

So I apologize in advance to anyone if I get something not quite right here.

但在《光环2》发布后，关于版税问题出现了分歧。

But after Halo two shipped, there was a disagreement about royalties.

在我之后接任的人和Bungie团队之间曾有一份版税协议，而《光环2》发布后，Bungie方面认为这份协议没有按照他们预期的方式执行，于是决定作为独立公司运作，比继续留在微软旗下更有利。

There was some kind of royalty agreement between the person who followed me and the guys at Bungie and after Halo two shipped, the Bungie guys felt like that deal was not followed the way they thought it should be And they decided they would be better off separate as a separate company again than part of Microsoft.

他们随后与微软展开谈判，探讨如何分拆并实现独立。

And they went into negotiations with Microsoft to figure out how they could split out and do that.

据我了解，微软同意让他们离开，成为一家独立公司，条件是他们必须为微软开发一定数量的游戏。

And my understanding is Microsoft agreed to let them go go out and become an independent company under the conditions that they do a certain number of titles.

一旦他们完成了这些为微软开发的游戏，他们基本上就可以自由离开了。

And and they and once those titles were made for Microsoft, they were free to go, basically.

于是他们达成了这项协议。

And so they entered into an agreement to do that.

我认为这些游戏包括《光环3》、《光环：ODST》和《光环：致远星》。

And I think that those titles were Halo three, Halo ODST, and Halo Reach.

因此，在完成《光环：致远星》之后，他们开始开发新游戏《命运》。

And so after they finished Halo Reach, they went on to do their new game Destiny.

《命运》。

Destiny.

好了，各位听众。

Alright, listeners.

随着2026年的开启，现在正是感谢我们最喜爱的公司之一的好时机，这家公司已成为我们制作《Acquired》节目不可或缺的一部分，那就是Anthropic及其最新旗舰模型Claude Opus 4.5。

As we kick off 2026, now is a great time to thank one of our favorite companies and one that's become pretty essential to how we make Acquired, Anthropic, and their newest flagship model, Claude Opus 4.5.

Opus 4.5 是 Anthropic 最智能的模型。

Opus 4.5 is Anthropic's most intelligent model.

它在现实世界的软件工程方面处于前沿，也是构建复杂代理的最佳模型。

It's state of the art for real world software engineering, and it's the best model for building complex agents.

但真正令人惊叹的是它处理权衡和细微差别的方式。

But what's really remarkable is how it handles things like trade offs and nuance.

GitHub、Cursor 和 Replit 等技术深度极高的公司的工程师表示，它能像资深工程师一样推理问题，而无需手把手指导。

Engineers at deeply technical companies like GitHub and Cursor and Replit say that it reasons through problems the way that a senior engineer would without requiring hand holding.

新的定价层级为每百万输入令牌 5 美元，使这种级别的能力得以大规模普及。

And the new pricing tier at $5 per million input tokens makes this level of capability accessible at scale.

Claude Code

Claude Code

现在可以直接在终端、浏览器、移动设备和 VS Code 中原生使用。

now works directly in your terminal, in your browser, on mobile, and natively in Versus Code.

因此，它能适配你任何工作方式。

So it fits into however you work.

另外，听众朋友们，我一直在使用Claude Code来自动化一些与Acquired相关的工作，比如转录，或者在我们实际录制时帮助我提取出我认为最重要的内容，当我一周后回看时，为我们的全新改版电子邮件通讯准备一些素材。

And listeners, as an aside, I've been using Claude code all the time now to automate some tasks around acquired, like transcription or, to help me pull out what I thought were the most important points in episodes when we were actually recording it when I sort of look back at it a week later and preparing some of the elements in our new revamped email newsletter.

我知道。

I know.

这太棒了。

It's been awesome.

它真的帮助我们提升了在Acquired之外所有工作的水平。

It's really helped us uplevel all the stuff that we do besides making the show around acquired.

但对于任何正在构建雄心勃勃项目的人来说，让Claude在重构复杂代码库时表现出色的深度，也同样使其在任何分析性工作中表现出色。

But what's powerful for anyone building something ambitious is the same depth that makes Claude exceptional at something like refactoring complex code bases also makes it great at any analytical work.

比如查阅监管文件、构建财务模型、综合数百份文档中的研究内容。

So combing through regulatory filings, building financial models, synthesizing research across hundreds of documents.

我们为了制作节目所要做的那些事情。

The things that we have to do to make the show.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

Indeed.

因此，无论你是正在推出下一个伟大的产品，还是在解决需要深度思考的问题，Claude Opus 4.5 都会与你一起思考复杂性，而不是代替你思考。

So whether you're shipping the next great product or tackling problems that need real deep thinking, Claude Opus four point five thinks through complexity with you, not for you.

它是你今年在构建任何项目时的智能思维伙伴。

It's your intelligent thinking partner for whatever you're building this year.

没错。

Yep.

请前往 claude.ai/acquired，以五折优惠体验 Claude Pro 三个月。

So head on over to claude.ai/acquired to try Claude with 50% off Claude Pro for three months.

如果你想要了解他们的企业级服务，只需联系他们，并告诉他们这是本和大卫推荐的。

And if you wanna explore their enterprise offerings, just get in touch with them and tell them that Ben and David sent you.

所以，埃德，我们经常谈论的一件事是，试图从收购中找出并归纳出那些使其成功的关键因素——即小公司自身的价值，加上大公司在交易中带来的资源。

So, Ed, one of the things that we like to talk about a lot are are trying to figure out and pattern match the things from an acquisition that made it successful, that made that experience where the value of the small company plus whatever it was that the big company brought to the deal.

这三者的结合是两个部分的巨大倍增，而且它们是独立的。

The combination of those three things is a gigantic multiple of the two parts and they're separate.

这有点像一加一等于三的情况。

It's kind of a one plus one equals three thing.

是什么样的特征、行动和事件让这一切如此成功？

What characteristics, what actions and what things transpired that made this so successful?

我认为大多数游戏开发者都有类似的感受，就是只想制作一款令人惊叹的游戏。

Well, I think most game developers pretty much feel the same, which is like, I just wanna make an incredible game.

我想拥有足够的资源，来实现我脑海中的游戏。

I wanna have the resources to make the game that I have in my head.

然后我希望它能有机会真正接触到市场，触达尽可能多的人。

And then I wanna see it have an honest chance to reach its market, to reach as many people as possible.

如果你想想，作为一个像Bungie这样挣扎的独立小公司去实现这一切， versus 在即将推出全新主机、拥有三亿美元营销预算、并会为这个新平台大造声势的微软旗下做这件事。

If you think about trying to do that as a little struggling independent company like Bungie was versus trying to do it under the umbrella of Microsoft that's about to launch a brand new console and has a $300,000,000 marketing budget and it's gonna make a lot of noise about this new platform.

我的意思是，这对任何人来说都是一个巨大的机会，能将自己的想法和创造力与这股强大的推动力结合在一起。

I mean, that's a big opportunity for someone to have their ideas and their creativity right along with that big push.

所以，我认为这就是游戏开发者愿意加入并成为这个更大整体的原因。

So that's I think what's in it for game developer to wanna team up and be part of this bigger thing.

我认为过程中面临的挑战是——这一直是我和我们团队非常担心并努力解决的问题：你是否意识到，这些团队之所以特别，是因为他们拥有自己独特的文化。

I think the challenge along the way is, and this is something we always, I worried a lot about and we worked hard on is, do you, I mean, of the things that makes these teams special is they have their own unique culture.

当我提到Bungie想拆掉墙壁时，你听到的就是这个意思，因为他们团队内部合作得非常紧密。

That's what you should hear when I'm saying Bungie wanted to rip out the walls, because they worked super collaboratively as a team.

他们希望程序员和艺术家能够在这间屋子里互相大声交流。

They wanted the programmers and the artists to be able to just shout to each other across this room.

顺便说一下，如果你现在去参观Bungie的办公室，它位于一个巨大的空间里，原本是一家电影院，现在是一个宽敞的大厅，依然完全开放，因为这正是他们文化的一部分。

By the way, if you go to visit Bungee's office now, it's in this giant well, it used to be a movie theater, it's a giant bay, it's still completely open, because that's part of their culture.

那么，如何将这种创意团队融入像微软这样的大公司，同时保护其独特文化呢？

So how do you integrate something creative into a bigger company like Microsoft and still protect it so that it can have its own unique culture?

我认为，这正是管理这类团队所面临的真正挑战。

I think that's really the challenge of management that's running something like that.

是的，你必须在大公司的效率与尊重小团队文化之间找到平衡，这显然存在张力。

Yeah, and there's obviously a tension you have to manage there between efficiencies of the larger business and respecting the culture of the smaller.

你在决定把他们迁过去的时候有遇到任何困难吗？

Did you struggle at all with the decision to move them to?

我没有，但回头看看，我可能不会那么晚才做这个决定。

I didn't, but in retrospect, I probably wouldn't have done it later.

我们后来经历了多次其他收购，我认为越早尽可能地保留公司的文化越好，因为这正是让他们独特的原因。

We went through multiple other acquisitions over time, and I think the more you can do to preserve the culture of the company, the better, because I think that's that's really what makes them unique.

而这种独特性，在娱乐行业尤其重要。

And that uniqueness, at least in the entertainment world, is really important.

它体现在产品本身中。

It expresses itself in the product itself.

我喜欢谈谈我曾经带过的两个非常棒的团队。

You know, I like to talk about how, you know, I had these two two really great teams who worked for me.

一个是叫做Ensemble Studios的团队，他们在德克萨斯州开发了《帝国时代》系列。

One is was called Ensemble Studios, and they did the Age of Empires series down in Texas.

另一个就是Bungie团队。

And another, the, you know, the Bungee team.

如果你看看这两家公司的文化，它们几乎是完全对立的。

And if you looked at the cultures of those two companies, they were almost diametrically opposed.

如果你把它们的价值观写下来，会是完全相反的清单。

If you wrote their values down, they would be opposite lists.

Bungie会说：我们是硬核的。

Bungie would be like, We're hardcore.

Ensemble会说：我们像一个大家庭。

Ensemble would be, We're a family.

类似这样的东西。

Don't know, stuff like that.

它们真的非常不同。

It would just be really different.

这让我明白，并不存在一种万能的文化。

That kind of taught me that there isn't a culture that works.

重要的是拥有自己的文化。

It's like having a culture is what matters.

重要的不是你拥有哪种文化。

It's not which culture you have that matters.

重要的是拥有一种强大的文化，它能吸引那些契合这种文化的人，并且真正地贯彻和落实它，最终文化会自然地体现在产品中。

Having a strong culture that attracts specific people that fit within that culture and really enforcing it and really making it, culture ends up just expressing itself in the product.

我不知道还能怎么表达。

I don't know how else to say it.

听到你这么说真是太棒了，因为这正是我们整个节目的核心主题，也是我们决定做这个节目的原因之一。

It's so cool to hear you say that because that's a a core theme of our whole show and part of the reason we decided to do this.

哦，太好了，我还没听过其他集。

Oh good, haven't heard any other episodes so.

是啊，你

Yeah well you

我们知道，我们谈过皮克斯，做过Instagram和Twitch，所有这些公司被收购时都拥有非常强大的文化，至少到目前为止，它们都被允许保持独立，并且都取得了巨大成功。对我们来说，一个重要的启示是：当你拥有出色的文化时，正是伟大的事物开始发生的时候。

know we talked about Pixar, we've done Instagram and we've done Twitch and all of those are where companies that when they were acquired had a very very strong culture that's so far at least with all of them been allowed to remain independent and they've all thrived hugely and you know for us I think a big takeaway has been the importance of doing that when you know when you have a great culture that's when great things get going.

是的，我的意思是，我们能够把芝加哥团队和加州团队合并到一个地方，我认为这对我们完成《光环》的工作是必要的。

Yeah I mean I think one of the things was we were able to bring those two bunch of teams together though, you know the Chicago team and the California team together in one spot and we needed that I think to get the HALO work done.

所以在那种情况下，也许这么做是对的，但一般来说，并不总是正确的做法。

So maybe in that case it was the right thing to do, but in general it's not always the right thing to do.

而在一个更大的组织中，你面临的挑战是如何与需要与你协作的公司其他部门整合？

And then the challenge you have in a bigger organization is how do you integrate with the other parts of the company that need to work with you?

当我从事PC游戏业务时，我经历过将市场营销团队整合到我的游戏团队中的过程。

I had gone through a process of integrating marketing into my game teams when I was doing PC gaming business.

尽管市场人员在技术上并不向我汇报，但他们被整合进来，与我的团队在整个组织中紧密协作。

Even though the marketing guys didn't technically report to me, they were integrated and sitting with my teams all through the all through the organization.

后来Xbox出现后，突然间形成了一个更大的Xbox组织，Xbox市场负责人希望把所有市场人员集中到他自己的大楼里。

And then after Xbox came along, there was all of a sudden this kind of bigger Xbox organization, the head of the Xbox marketing wanted to have all his marketing people under him sitting in his building.

于是他们都被调走了，我认为这是一个非常糟糕的决定，因为他们彻底与团队分开了，突然间变成了‘我们’和‘他们’的对立，而不是大家齐心协力。

So they all got pulled out, and I think it was a really bad decision because you know, they they they really got separated from the from the teams, and all of a sudden, was sort of an us and them kind of thing rather than that we're all working together.

我们承担不同的职能，但都在努力做同一件事。

We do different functions, but we're all trying to do the same thing.

举个例子，Halo的首批电视广告从广告公司回来后，我们给Bunchie团队看了，他们非常讨厌这些广告。

I mean, an example of that would be the first TV ads came back from the agency for Halo, and we showed them to the Bunchie guys, and they hated them.

他们真的非常讨厌这些广告。

They really, really hated them.

有个家伙到处跑着开枪，打东打西，你可能会想，哦，这就是《光环》的全部内容。

There's a guy running around with a gun and he's shooting stuff, And they're and you might think, oh, that's what Halo is about.

对邦奇团队来说，这完全不是《光环》的精髓。

To the bungee guys, that is not what Halo is about at all.

对他们而言，《光环》就像是风暴前的宁静。

For them, Halo is like the quiet before the storm.

那是你看到的壮丽远景，意识到自己迟早要前往那里。

It's that epic long vista that you see and realize you're going to be heading there later.

原始的主题音乐。

The original theme music.

是的。

Yeah.

就是那段音乐。

It's the music.

所有这些都包括在内。

It's all that.

所以我们不得不倒回去，试图修复这个电视广告，但这就是当没有一个贯穿始终的整合团队协同工作、真正理解产品愿景时会发生的情况。

So we had to way back and try to fix this TV commercial, but that's the kind of stuff that happened when there isn't this integrated team working together all the way through so that they really understand the vision for the product.

是的，回想起我在微软的那段时光，当我们进行了一次‘一个微软’的重组，从事业部制转变为职能制时，这真的很有趣。

Yeah, it's so interesting thinking about just just from my time at Microsoft, when we kind of had the one Microsoft reorg and went went functional from divisional.

在组织架构中，将部门与职能分开的合适位置在哪里呢？

And where's the appropriate place in the hierarchy to to separate into divisions versus functions?

职能制意味着所有业务部门的市场人员聚在一起，所有技术员工也集中在一起；而事业部制则是每个事业部作为一个独立的‘家庭单元’，所有成员高度整合。

So with functions being you have all the marketing people together for all the business groups and all the tech people, have all the business groups versus, you know, having these sort of family units of these separate divisions where everyone's totally integrated.

听起来，在这种创意型工作中，事业部制似乎更有效，各个职能之间需要高度紧密地协同合作。

It sounds like, you know, at least in this kind of creative endeavor space, the divisional kind of works better and all the different functions need to be super tightly integrated with each other.

你知道，我在微软待了18年。

You know, I was at Microsoft 18 times eighteen years.

我的意思是，我不记得看过多少次这种重组了——先这样组织，再改回去，再这样，再改回去。

I mean, so I don't know how many times I saw that organize that reorg happened back one way and then back the other and back one way and back the other.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像隔壁的草总是更绿。

It's like the grass is always greener.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像，是啊。

It's like Yeah.

一种方式有它自己的一套问题，另一种方式则有另一套问题。

One one one way has a certain set of problems and the other way has a different set of problems.

所以看起来他们只是在两种方式之间来回切换。

And so it seems like they just toggle back and forth between the two.

我真的不太明白。

I I don't really understand it.

我们节目中有三个特别喜欢的环节，可以快速过一遍，泰德，我们也非常希望你能参与。

One of the things we do on our show that that we really enjoy doing is three segments in particular that we can run through quickly and Ted, we'd love we'd love you to participate too.

首先，本和我各自为收购对象分配一个类别，我们目前识别出的五类——当然还可能发现更多突破框框的类型——但目前我们确定的五类是：人员、技术、产品、业务线，或者第四、第五类是其他不确定因素。

The first is that Ben and I each assign a category to the acquisition and the kind of five we've identified, we could find more that break out of the box, but the five we've identified are people, technology, product, business line or I guess fourth, fifth is other wildcard.

但没错，你知道，对我来说很有趣的是，我原本把《光环》和《Bungee》视为微软的产品收购，但听你这么一说，我觉得你提供的大量数据也有力地支持了这是一次人才收购。

But yeah, you know for me it's interesting, I really pegged Halo and Bungee as a product acquisition for Microsoft but it's interesting you know hearing you talk yet, it's really, I think you've given a lot of data to support people as well.

但最终，我还是要坚持产品这个分类，因为最重要的是，后来Bungie独立出去，而《光环》作为Xbox平台上的产品被保留了下来。

Ultimately, think I'm gonna stick with product simply because more than anything because of the spin out that ended up happening later on in Bungie going on to to leave Microsoft and that DNA to leave Microsoft and and Halo sticking behind as as a product for for Xbox.

你觉得呢，本？

What what would you say, Ben?

我不会反对。

I'm not gonna disagree.

我认为确实如此。

I I I think it's it's absolutely that.

正如你所说，Bungie的团队在文化方面确实带来了宝贵的经验，以及如何将这类游戏推向一个原本没人认为会拥有第一人称射击游戏的平台，比如PC等等。

Like you said, there's there's definitely a a learning from, the the folks at Bungie about their culture and about how to produce that sort of game and bring it to a platform that nobody thought was gonna have a first person shooter like the PC and things like that.

但没错，我的投票还是投给产品。

But, yeah, I think my vote would be product.

埃德，你觉得呢？

Ed, what do

你怎么看？

you think?

我坚持认为是人才。

I'm sticking with the people for sure.

我的意思是，创建一个系列是一回事，而持续发展它又是另一回事，这些人才是从零开始创造了《光环》。

Mean, mean, you know, it's one thing to create a franchise and it's another to to continue it is one thing I'd say, you know, and these are the people that that created Halo, you know, out of out of nothing.

确实，现在推动《光环》发展的是一支不同的团队，他们为这个系列增添了许多有趣的新元素，但《光环》是Bungie创造的。

And so, you know, it's true there's a different team that's that's moving Halo forward now, and and and they've added a lot of interesting new things to the to the franchise, but Bungie created it.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

然后他们还创造了《命运》，我觉得也非常棒。

And then they created Destiny, which I also think is very good.

所以我不知道。

So I don't know.

我只是总是站在那些人或真正决定公司成败的一方。

I I just always fall on the side of of the people or what what really matter in these companies.

我们收到的反馈之一是，这个节目需要更多的分歧。

Well, one of the one of the pieces of feedback we've gotten is we need more disagreement on this show.

好吧。

So Alright.

很好。

Good.

太棒了。

This is great.

我们会邀请一些人来。

We're gonna bring people in.

他们就像你们一样，来和我们争论。

They're like you guys to disagree with us.

欢迎你随时回来。

You're welcome back anytime.

如果我和大卫一直意见一致，我们就请第三方来联手反对我们。

If if David and I keep agreeing, we'll just bring in third third parties that can gang up on us.

嗯。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

倒数第二个部分，倒数第二个部分。

Second to last, second to last segment.

这是我最喜欢的。

This is my favorite.

我们谈论这个，因为这个节目整体上是关于科技并购的。

We talk about, because this is about technology acquisitions as a whole, this show.

我们讨论的是，这种并购是否体现了或代表了科技领域中某种潜在的、可推广的更广泛主题？

We talk about is there an underlying kind of generalizable and broader theme in technology that this acquisition embodies or represents?

对我来说，这正是我觉得《命运》是个绝佳过渡的原因。贝德利的收购代表了技术平台转型时的力量，而这种转型在游戏行业往往悄然发生：最初是早期的PC游戏和早期主机，随后随着Xbox和PlayStation 2时代、《光环》的兴起，主机市场真正占据主导，贝德利正是乘着这波浪潮取得了成功。

For me, and and this is why I thought Destiny was a great segue, you know, me the Bungie acquisition represents the power of whenever there's a platform shift in technology and that happens very discreetly in the gaming industry where, you know, first it was there was early PC gaming and early consoles and then consoles really became dominant with the age of Xbox and PlayStation two and Halo and Bungie rode that success.

而近年来，免费游玩模式兴起，同时移动游戏也蓬勃发展。有趣的是，尽管《光环》在美国的文化乃至媒体领域仍占据重要地位，但游戏行业在许多方面已经转向了新的趋势，如今的巨头是那些受益于新一代平台的公司，而贝德利正是通过《命运》走上了这条路。

Then you know in recent times there's been the age of free to play, simultaneous age of free to play and mobile and it's interesting to see you know Halo is still a huge part of the cultural landscape at least the media landscape in The US but the gaming industry has moved on in a lot of ways and what's big now are companies enabled by this next wave and that's where Bungie's gone with destiny.

因此，对我来说，每当游戏或其他技术领域出现平台转型时，其力量在于并非完全抹去之前的公司和赢家，而是催生出新的、更强大的赢家。

So for me the you know, this this power of whenever there's a platform shift in gaming or other parts of technology, ability to not totally wipe away the the companies and the winners from before, but create new winners and bigger winners.

我认为《光环》和贝德利很好地体现了这一点。

I think Halo and BungeeX represent that really well.

是的。

Yeah.

我可能会有一点不同的看法，但大致上我会选择和你相同的里程碑事件。

I'm I'm gonna I mean, I see it maybe a little differently but kinda I pick I'll pick the same milestones as you.

对我来说，贝德利被收购的时期，正是发行商规模不断扩大的时候，发行商之间也出现了整合。

You know, For me, it was the time when the Bungee acquisition happened at a time when the publishers were getting bigger and there was consolidation among the publishers.

当时，规模经济变得至关重要，动视、艺电、Take-Two和微软这些大公司因此占据了优势。

So it was getting there was this economy of scale of being big at that time, you know, and that Activision's and Electronic Arts and Take Two's and Microsoft's had an advantage.

而那些小型的夫妻店式开发商和发行商正在消失。

And the little kind of mom and pop developer publisher was going away.

Bungie 就是一个例子。

Bungie is an example.

我们做的另一项收购是一家名为 Access Software 的公司，他们开发了我们的高尔夫、网球和其他游戏。

Another acquisition we did was a company called Access Software that did our golf and tennis and other games.

这些公司起初规模很小，然后逐渐变大，到了某个阶段，规模经济变得至关重要，规模真的很重要，于是我们开始看到大量收购行为。

And these things start small and then they get somewhat bigger, and then at some point, economy of scale really matters, scale really matters, and then you start to see a lot of acquisitions.

所以，2000 年左右 Bungie 被收购时，正是发生这种情况的时候。

So that was what was happening kind of in around 2000 when this Bungee acquisition happened.

现在在免费游戏领域，同样的事情也在发生。

It's also what's happening now in free to play.

所以，顺着你的例子，我曾在 Z2 的董事会任职。

So follow on your example, know, I mean, was on the board of Z2.

Z2 是一家非常早期的免费游戏公司，推出过几款热门游戏，比如《贸易国度》和《战争国度》。

Z2 was, you know, really early free to play company, had a bunch of hits, trade nations and battle nations.

《战争国度》。

Battle nations.

知道吗？

Know?

在某个时候，技能在免费游戏中开始变得真正重要。

At some point, know, skill started to really matter in free to play.

你知道，如果你要和《部落冲突》或《糖果传奇》之类的游戏竞争，拥有这些庞大的用户群体，你真的想把流量引到你的游戏上，那么当你拥有如此庞大的受众时，这一点就至关重要。

You know, if you're gonna compete with, know, Clash of Clans or or Candy Crush or something, know, just these massive audiences and you really want to drive traffic to your to your game, it really matters that if you have this big audience out there.

因此，Z2越来越难以竞争，就像微软收购了Bungie一样，King收购Z2也显得非常合理。

And so it's getting harder and harder for Z2 to compete and you know just like Microsoft bought Bungie, it made a lot of sense for King to buy Z2.

所以我认为，这类事情存在着某种循环，我们一再看到这种情况。

So I think you know this there's kind of cycles to this stuff and we see it you know over and over again.

也许这不仅仅是单一平台的转变。

It's, you know, maybe it's not just one platform shift.

也许这只是每个市场自然演进的结果，对吧？当一个新的市场出现时，起初有很多小公司和大量尝试者，然后随着时间推移发生变化。

Maybe it's, you know, just a natural evolution of each market, right, as some new market comes and have a lot of little guys at the beginning, a lot of experimenters, and then and then change over time.

就此，我将带大家进入我们的最后一个部分，做出总结。

And with that, I'll I'll kinda take us into our our last section where we render a conclusion.

成绩分为A到F，还有加号和减号。

Grades a through f, you get pluses and minuses.

我先来问你一个问题，埃德。

And I'll kick it off by asking you a question, Ed.

你觉得，如果没有班吉团队和你们团队完成这次收购，Xbox今天还能取得这样的成功吗？

Do you think that the Xbox would be the success that it is today if the Bungie team and and your team didn't pull off this acquisition?

我真的不这么认为。

I really don't.

我的意思是，我认为《光环》对Xbox的成功至关重要。

I mean, I think I think Halo is hugely important to the success of of Xbox.

如果没有《光环》与Xbox的结合，我不知道会不会有Xbox 360。

I don't know if there would have been an Xbox three sixty if there was no Halo with Xbox.

所以我认为这极其重要。

So I think it was incredibly important.

多年来，微软一直因Xbox不赚钱、公司对此并不认真而受到批评。

Famously, Microsoft criticized for years and years and years of, not making money on Xbox and it not being something the company was serious about.

而如今我们看到它发展到了今天，成为与Windows同一平台的一部分，承担了远超游戏的更多功能，公司也真正开始重视整个业务，并结合HoloLens和其他许多

And then where we see where it's gone today and kind of being part of the same platform as Windows and doing so much more than gaming and the company really taking the whole thing seriously and combined with the HoloLens and a lot

其他未来的布局，比如《我的世界》未来的剧集。

of other future bets they're making Minecraft future episode.

没错，

Yep,

是的。

yep.

真正为公司的未来铺平了道路。

Really paving the way for the future of the company.

听到它对平台创建如此重要，真是令人惊叹。

So it's pretty amazing to hear how important it was to the creation of the platform.

当我上世纪九十年代中期开始从事游戏工作时，我离开了一个成功的办公室职业。

When I went to work on games in the mid nineties, I was leaving a successful career in office.

我在那里待了十年。

I'd been there in ten years.

有人告诉我几件事。

And I was told a couple of things.

他们说我在自杀职业生涯。

I was told that I was committing career suicide.

他们还问我，为什么要离开公司最重要的一部分——办公软件，去投身一个没人关心的领域？

And I was told, why would you leave office one of the most important parts of the company to go work on something no one cares about?

这反而成了激励我投身游戏开发、成为微软重要一员的动力。

That was that was a great motivator for me to go go make games, be an important part of of Microsoft.

所以

And so

我认为，或许现在关心游戏的人比想象中要多得多。

I think you could argue a lot more people care about maybe not a lot.

至少，如今关心游戏的人和关心办公软件的人一样多。

At least as many people who care about Office care about games today.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是公司的重要部分。

I think I think it's an important part of the company.

我为此感到自豪。

I'm proud of that.

这很有趣。

It's funny.

这就像节目里我总是请基督徒上来的部分，但天啊，这听起来就像你职业生涯中的低端颠覆。

This is like the part of the show where I always bring in Christians in, but, like, boy, does that sound like low end disruption even in your career.

对吧？

Right?

你离开去玩那个没人当真的东西，那简直是个玩具。

You're you're leaving to go and play with the thing that nobody can take seriously, and it's a total toy.

它怎么可能变得庞大呢？

And how could it ever get big?

而这才是真正重要的东西，那个一直持续运转的泰坦号。

And this is the thing that matters and it's the Titan that's been trucking along forever.

这让人想起每一个从无名之处冒出来的初创公司，突然间，没人能理解为什么大家都如此认真对待它，而它却拥有如此巨大的市场。

It's just so reminiscent of every startup that comes out of nowhere and then suddenly nobody can understand how everyone's taking it seriously and it's such a gigantic market.

嗯，我只是说，能成为其中一员真的很有趣，你知道的？

Well, I I'll just say it's fun to be part of that, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Alright.

加分。

Well, a plus.

我亮出我的牌。

I show my card.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

所以我们让埃德最后一个发言。

Is so we'll we'll let we'll let Ed go last here.

你知道，我一直对这个问题感到纠结，这并不是为了制造分歧而故意唱反调，而是这个收购案，无论从哪个角度看，尤其是本、你和埃德刚才讨论的这个案例，确实非常有力。

You know, I've been struggling with this one and not just for creating disagreement for the sake of the show, but this acquisition, really any perspective you look at it, know, and that one that Ben, you and Ed were just talking about is such a powerful one.

从财务角度看，纵观《光环》系列的整个生命周期，当时没人能预见这一点，但仅游戏销售就带来了超过50亿美元的收入。

Look at it financially, mean over the lifetime of the Halo franchise and there's no way anybody could have foreseen this at the time, but it's made over $5,000,000,000 in revenue just from game sales alone.

这还没算周边商品、电影，也没算机甲动画——而《光环》实际上推动了这一全新类别的兴起，尽管微软并未从中获利。

That's before merchandise, that's before movies, that's before machinima, which was a whole another category that Halo really helped launch, although Microsoft didn't monetize by it.

所以，无论从哪个维度来看，这都是一次非凡的收购。

So really any dimension you look at it, it's an incredible acquisition.

我稍微纠结的一点是，我总忍不住想，如果当初那个创意团队能持续作为Xbox和游戏产业的核心力量，那么《光环》、Xbox和Bungie三方本可以发展成什么样。

The thing that I struggle with a little bit, I come back to this spin off and I think about what both Halo and Xbox and Bungie, what all three of them could have been if that creative team had really continued being a central part of Xbox and gaming going forward.

而且多年来，你知道，当移动游戏和免费模式兴起时，光环并没有参与其中。

And and for many years, you know, while mobile was was rising and while free to play was rising, Halo wasn't part of it.

我不确定。

And I don't know.

我一直在想它本可以成为什么样子。

I think about what it could have been.

所以，显然，这是一次非常成功的收购。

So, obviously, it's really great acquisition.

我想我正是因为这个原因才把加号去掉了，所以对我来说是A。

I think I removed the plus because of that, so it's an a for me.

等等。

So wait.

你的观点是

Your argument is that

我认为这里存在一些未实现的潜力。

I I argue that there's some unrealized potential here.

对UA没有任何意见。

Nothing against UA.

但是，是的。

But Yeah.

你觉得是因为

Do do do you think it's because

它被分拆出去了。

it spun out.

你说的是因为他们再次失去了它，所以

You're you're saying because they lost it again that they that

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，2007年实际上是主机市场的巅峰时期，或者至少接近巅峰，就在下一波浪潮来临之前。

You know, in 2007, which ended up being real was the the the very top of the console market, or at least close to it before the next wave was coming.

就在那时，微软失去了Bungie。

And right then, Microsoft lost Bungie.

所以你是把微软错失移动市场归咎于

So are you blaming the Microsoft missing mobile on

Windows Phone 是Bungie独立的直接结果吗？

Windows Phone is a direct result of the Bungie spin out then.

即使是移动游戏，对吧？

Well, even mobile gaming, right?

微软从未拥有过，你知道的，他们在主机游戏领域有着惊人的影响力。

Like Microsoft never never had a, you know, they have this incredible presence in console gaming.

当我坐在那里玩手机，玩着部落冲突之类的游戏时，这些都不是微软的资产。

And like, when I'm sitting there screwing around on my phone playing clash of clans or whatever, like, it's not a Microsoft property.

没错。

Yep.

你认为，如果那个团队留下来，他们本可以实现未被发掘的潜力吗？

Do you think that, there's, like, unrealized potential if that team had stuck there that they

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许不是。

Maybe not.

也许甚至命运永远不会在微软内部发生。

And maybe maybe, maybe even destiny never would have happened within Microsoft.

所以我不知道。

So I don't know.

但我今天看《光环》，我觉得，也许这只是事物发展的自然趋势，但它不再像以前那样具有文化影响力，也不再像以前那样对整个电子游戏行业那么重要。

But I look at Halo today and I think, and maybe it's just the natural course of things, but I I, it's not as culturally relevant as it once was and not as relevant to video gaming as a whole as it once was.

埃德？

Ed?

好的。

Okay.

好吧，有几件事。

Well, a few things.

微软对《命运》拥有优先购买权，所以如果他们愿意，本可以对其进行打磨。

Microsoft had a right of first refusal on Destiny, so they could've they could've polished it if they wanted to.

所以他们在这个决定上是否正确，恐怕只有时间能证明，但这只是值得思考的一点。

So whether they made the right choice on that or not, I guess time will tell, but just that's just one thing to think about.

我在微软期间可能参与了十几起大大小小的收购，其中最成功的一次就是收购了Bungie。

I was probably involved in a dozen or so acquisitions, big and small, at Microsoft, and definitely the one that went the best was acquiring Bungie.

所以我不敢给自己打A+，但我至少会给自己...

So I'm I'm not gonna give myself an a plus, but I'll give myself.

我会得到，我会得到，我会得到，嗯。

But I'll get I'll get I'll get Yeah.

你这是在给自己打分啊。

You're grading yourself here.

我会选A，因为这是我参与过的最重要的一个项目。

I'll I'll go with a because this was the number one one that I was involved with.

听起来不错。

Oh, sounds good to me.

你知道，我们虽然随意地给出这些评分，但这其实只是帮助我们深入探讨一下哪些地方本可以做得更好、哪些地方没有实现的一种框架。

And you know it's kind of funny like we throw these arbitrary grades around but it's sort of just a framework for us to get to dig in a little bit and think about what could have been or what was unrealized.

当然。

Sure.

没错。

Yep.

你，埃德。

You Ed.

我们非常感谢你花这么多时间。

We really appreciate all the time.

这对我们和听众来说都是一次特别的荣幸，正如我所说，你随时欢迎回来和我们争论。

Super special treat both for us and our listeners and like I said you're welcome back anytime to disagree with us.

非常感谢，能参与这次对话真的很有趣。

Thanks a lot it was really fun to be part of this.

谢谢。

Appreciate it.

对于听众们，我们在Twitter上的账号是Acquired FM。

And for listeners, we are Acquired FM on Twitter.

是的。

Yeah.

抱歉这次聊得这么久，但我真的越聊越投入了。

Sorry this one went so long, but I just got real into it.

有太多精彩的时刻了。

So many great moments.

再次感谢。

Thanks again.

别急，各位。

Easy, guys.

好了，听众们，现在是时候感谢我们节目的长期好友Vanta了，这是一家领先的智能信任平台，帮助您自动化合规流程并管理风险。

All right listeners, this is a great time to thank our longtime friend of the show Vanta, the leading agentic trust platform that helps you automate compliance and manage risk.

大卫，我刚和克里斯蒂娜以及Vanta团队聊了聊，了解了最新情况。

David, I, caught up with Christina and the Vanta team to get the latest.

哦，不错。

Oh, nice.

所以听众可能知道，Vanta 最初专注于合规自动化。

So listeners probably know Vanta started by focusing on compliance automation.

帮助公司获得 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR 和 HIPAA 认证。

So helping companies to get their SOC two, ISO twenty seven zero zero one, GDPR, and HIPAA.

他们的核心洞察是构建一个系统，能够持续监控你的所有合规性和风险，而不仅仅是在年度审计时才检查一次，让你随时都能对自身的安全状况充满信心。

The big insight was to build a system that could monitor all of your compliance and risk continuously, not just once a year for your audit, so you could feel confident in your security posture all the time.

但他们现在意识到，他们真正从事的业务是让你更容易赢得客户的信任。

But now they have realized that the business that they're really in is making it easier for you to earn the trust of your customers.

没错。

Yep.

有道理。

Makes sense.

所以当你开始扩张时，会面临越来越多的合规和安全要求以及更多的工具，这可能会变得非常混乱。

So when you start scaling, you end up with more compliance and security requirements and more tools, which can get very chaotic.

Vanta 已成为始终在线、由 AI 驱动的安全专家，与你一同成长。

Vanta has become the always on AI powered security expert that scales with you.

正如 Vanta 所说，他们是你会永远不需要雇佣的最棒的安全专家。

And as Vanta puts it, they are the best security hire you'll never have to make.

当然，像 Cursor、Snowflake、Replit、Linear 和 Ramp 这样的全球增长最快公司，都在使用 Vanta 确保其安全体系始终领先一步，并真正成为推动业务增长的动力。

And, of course, the fastest growing companies in the world like Cursor, Snowflake, Replit, Linear, and Ramp all use Vanta to make sure that their security programs are always a step ahead and function as a real driver of growth for the business.

完全说得通。

Makes total sense.

挺有趣的。

It's funny.

我们五年前刚开始使用 Vanta 时，我想当时是 Yep。

When we first started working with Vanta almost five years ago, I think it was Yep.

我们当时觉得，哦，这是一款绝佳的、属于‘获取宇宙’的产品，能让你专注于真正区别于竞争对手的产品功能，而把其他事情外包出去。

We thought, oh, this is one of those great acquired universe products that lets you focus only on what differentiates your product and outsource the things that don't.

但在过去几年里，他们的产品进步巨大，现在已经不只是 Vanta 为你做这些事了。

But over the last couple years, their product has advanced so much that it's not just Vanta does that for you.

现在实际上是Vanta做得更好。

It's now actually Vanta does that better.

如果没有实时监控系统，你就不可能让您的供应商和客户获得这种程度的信心和信任。

Without a real time monitoring system, there's just no way that you could give your vendors and customers this level of confidence and trust.

没错。

Yep.

所以，如果你的公司准备回归主业，专注于让啤酒味道更好，而把合规和安全审查交给Vanta的AI自动化系统，那就加入他们全球现有的12000名客户吧。

So if your company is ready to go back to making your beer taste better and leave the compliance and security reviews to Vanta's AI powered automation, join their now 12,000 customers around the globe.

你可以访问 Vanta.com/acquired，告诉他们Ben和David推荐了你，就能获得一千美元的免费信用额度。

You can just head on over to Vanta dot com slash acquired and tell them that Ben and David sent you, and you'll earn a thousand dollars of free credit.

网址是 vanta.com/acquired。

That's vanta.com/acquired.