本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
我们会聊的，你知道的，在这个播客的付费环节，我会推广我的游戏。
We'll we'll talk, you know, during the, paid portion of this, podcast where I advertise my game.
欢迎收听《Acquired》第五季第五期，这档节目讲述的是杰出科技公司及其背后的故事。
Welcome to season five episode five of Acquired, the podcast about great technology companies and the stories behind them.
我是本·吉尔伯特，也是西雅图Pioneer Square Labs的联合创始人，这是一家初创企业孵化器和早期风险投资基金。
I'm Ben Gilbert, and I'm the co founder of Pioneer Square Labs, a startup studio and early stage venture fund in Seattle.
我是大卫·罗森塔尔，旧金山的风投公司Wave Capital的普通合伙人，我们专注做市场平台类的早期投资。
And I'm David Rosenthal, and I'm a general partner at Wave Capital, an early stage venture firm focused on marketplaces based in San Francisco.
我们是你们的主持人。
And we are your hosts.
今天我们要聊的是发明了家用电子游戏产业的公司——雅达利。
Today, we are talking about the company that invented the home video game industry, Atari.
我们请来了一位嘉宾，他对雅达利有很多精彩的故事，他就是雅达利的创始人、电子游戏产业之父诺兰·布什内尔。
And we have someone with us who's got some pretty good stories about it, the founder of Atari, the father of the video game industry, Nolan Bushnell.
你好，诺兰。
Hello, Nolan.
很高兴能来。
Great to be here.
挺有意思的。
Good fun.
确实如此。
Indeed.
非常感谢你加入我们。
Thank you so much for joining us.
有些听众可能知道，诺兰还创办了不少其他公司，其中一家特别棒的就是Chuck E.'s Cheese。
As some of our listeners know, Nolan has started a swath of other businesses, one of which, awesomely, is Chuck E.
关于这家店，我们等会儿会深入聊很多。
Cheese, which we will get much, much deeper into later this episode.
昨晚我们翻到了一些本年轻时的照片。
We dug up some photos of young Ben, last night.
是的。
Yeah.
诺兰，我得跟你说一下。
Nolan, I should let you know.
我现在就把电脑转过来。
I'm gonna turn my computer around right now.
Chuck E.
Chuck E.
我小时候最喜欢的地方，就是Chuck E. Cheese，没得比。
Cheese was, like, by far and away, my favorite place in the world growing up.
而且，
And,
这本来就是设计成这样的，你知道的。
here's designed that way, you know.
这是我在Chuck E. Cheese过三岁生日时拍的照片。
Here's some pictures of my third birthday at Chuck E.
Cheese。
Cheese.
这是我和我最喜欢的玩具在一起，就是那个Chuck E.
And there's me with my favorite toy, which is a Chuck E.
玩偶。
Doll.
真有意思。
How fun.
纳兰，现在这个时间点可真巧，对我们和听众来说都是如此，因为上一期我们聊了红杉资本的早期岁月和唐·瓦伦丁的职业生涯，而你当时参与了很多。
Now, Nolan, this is fun timing for us and for our listeners, since our last episode covered the early days of Sequoia Capital and Don Valentine's career, which you had a lot to do with.
唐真的是我见过最出色的董事会成员。
Well, Don was really maybe the best board member I've ever had.
但他也是最让人抓狂、最令人气恼的一个。
He was also the most frustrating and infuriating.
他总能问我一些关于我自己的公司的问题，而我居然答不上来。
You know, he had this ability to ask me a question about my own company that I didn't know.
可他一问出来，我就立刻意识到——这问题我早该知道答案的。
But the minute he asked it, I knew I should have known then.
所以我开始突击准备董事会会议，心想：这次可别想难住我。
And so I started to cram for board meetings saying, okay.
唐这次别想抓到我了。
Don's not gonna catch me this time.
但他总能得手。
And he always would.
所以我一直相信，一个真正有洞察力的问题，往往能带来很大的启发。
So I always believe that a proper insightful question can be very instructive.
而这正是——
And that was,
正如我们在上一期节目中提到的，他当年在红杉开创的，其实就是苏格拉底式的提问方式。
as we covered on our last episode, you know, down in the Socratic method that was, really the root of, you know, what he pioneered at Sequoia.
对。
Yeah.
各位听众，我们上一期的有限合伙人专题，深入探讨了平台经济的学术视角。
Well listeners, our last limited partner episode was a deep dive into marketplaces from an academic perspective.
在这档节目中，我们经常讨论平台型企业的关键驱动因素，正如你所料，有一些专家一辈子都在研究和分类像抽成率、搜索与发现难题，以及何时该补贴这类问题。
On this show, we often talk about the levers at play in marketplace businesses, and as you would suspect, there are experts who have spent their careers studying and categorizing things like take rate, search and discovery problem, and when to subsidize.
其中一位专家是斯坦福大学的拉梅什·贾哈里教授，他同时也是Wave、Uber、Airbnb、Stitch Fix等多家优秀平台企业的顾问。
One such expert is Ramesh Jahari, a professor at Stanford and advisor to Wave along with Uber, Airbnb, Stitch Fix, and many other great marketplace businesses.
如果你想收听并成为我们的有限合伙人，可以先免费试用七天，直接在你常用的播客应用里点开节目笔记里的链接，或者访问 glow.fm/acquired 就行。
So if you wanna listen and become an acquired limited partner, you can get started with a seven day free trial and listen right here in the podcast player of your choice by clicking the link in the show notes or going to glow.fm/acquired.
好了，各位听众。
Alright, listeners.
现在我们要特别感谢我们在Acquired最喜爱的公司之一——Sentry。
This is a great time to thank one of our favorite companies here at Acquired, Sentry.
就是s-e-n-t-r-y，像守卫一样守护着系统的那个Sentry。
That's s e n t r y, like someone standing guard.
没错。
Yes.
Sentry能帮开发者快速定位错误和延迟问题，几乎任何软件故障都能提前发现并修复，避免用户发火。
Sentry helps developers debug errors and latency issues pretty much any software problem and fix them before users get mad.
正如他们官网上说的，有四百多万软件开发者都认为他们不错。
As their homepage puts it, they are considered not bad by over 4,000,000 software developers.
今天我们要聊的是Sentry如何与Acquired宇宙中的另一家公司Anthropic合作。
Today, we are talking about the way Sentry works with another company in the acquired universe, Anthropic.
Anthropic以前用过一些老式的基础设施监控工具，但考虑到他们规模庞大、系统复杂，最终选择了Sentry来更快地解决问题。
Anthropic used to have some older infrastructure monitoring in place, but at their massive scale and complexity, they instead adopted Sentry to help them fix issues faster.
没错。
Yep.
在人工智能领域，崩溃可能是个大问题。
Crashes can be a massive problem in AI.
如果你在运行一个大规模的计算任务，比如训练模型，一旦某个节点出问题，可能会影响成百上千台服务器。
If you're running a huge compute job like training a model and one node fails, it can affect hundreds or thousands of servers.
Sentry帮他们及时发现故障硬件，避免问题蔓延开来。
Sentry helped them detect bad hardware so they could quickly reject it before causing a cascading problem.
Sentry还让他们能在几小时内排查出大型问题，而不是拖上好几天，这样就能尽快恢复训练任务。
Sentry also enabled them to debug massive issues in hours instead of days so they could get back to their training runs.
如今，Anthropic 依靠 Sentry 实时追踪异常、分配错误，并分析研究团队所用主要编程语言——包括 Python、Rust 和 C++ ——中的故障。
And today, Anthropic relies on Sentry to track exceptions, assign errors, and analyze failures in real time across all of the primary languages used by Anthropic's research teams, including Python, Rust, and c plus plus.
据 Anthropic 团队说，Sentry 给开发人员提供了一个统一的地方，所有调试问题所需的信息都能在这里找到。
According to the Anthropic team, Sentry gives our developers one place that will have all the information they need to debug an issue.
说到 AI，Sentry 现在推出了一款叫 SEER 的 AI 调试工具。
And speaking of AI, Sentry now has an AI debugger called SEER.
SEER 是一个 AI 代理，能整合 Sentry 和你代码库中的所有上下文信息，不只是猜测，而是直接定位那些棘手问题的根源，并为你量身定制可直接合并的修复方案。
SEER is an AI agent that taps into all the issue context from Sentry and your code base to not just guess, but root cause gnarly issues and propose merge ready fixes specific to your application.
我们非常期待能和 Sentry 合作。
We're pumped to be working with Sentry.
他们的客户名单非常厉害，不仅有 Anthropic，还有 Cursor、Vercel、Linear 等等。
They have an incredible customer list, including not only Anthropic, but Cursor, Vercel, Linear, and more.
如果你也想快速修复代码问题，就像全球超过十五万家组织那样——从独立爱好者到世界顶级公司——都可以访问 sentry.io/acquired 了解详情。
If you wanna fix your broken code fast, like over a 150,000 other organizations that use Sentry from indie hobbyists to some of the biggest companies in the world, you can check out sentry.io/acquired.
网址是 sentry.io/acquired，记得告诉他们，是 Ben 和 David 推荐你的。
That's sentry.io/acquired, and just tell them that Ben and David sent you.
是的。
Yes.
他们为所有《Acquired》的听众提供两个月免费服务。
And they're offering two months free to all Acquired listeners.
对。
Yes.
谢谢Sentry。
Thank you, Sentry.
接下来，我们聊聊雅达利。
And now, on to Atari.
没错。
Yeah.
咱们开始吧。
Let's do it.
诺兰，你出生在犹他州的克莱尔菲尔德。
Nolan, you were born in Clearfield, Utah.
对吧？
Right?
就在盐湖城外不远吧？
Just is that just outside Salt Lake City?
大概在盐湖城和奥格登中间的位置。
It's about halfway between Salt Lake and Ogden.
明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
我们节目开始前聊了点你如何走上创业这条路的事。
We were talking a bit before the show about, you're you're reflecting on how you became an entrepreneur.
很早就开始了，对吧？从种草莓开始。
It started pretty early, right, with, with strawberries.
是的。
Yeah.
你能跟我们讲讲你在克莱菲尔德第一次创业的故事吗？
Can you tell us the story about your first business venture in Clearfield?
吃饭的时候，我妈说，咱们家草莓太多了。
Well, my mother over dinner table said, we've got too many strawberries.
我们家后院一直有个菜园，种了不少东西。
We always had a truck garden in the back of the house.
她说，草莓实在太多了，都快吃不完。
And and she said, we've got way too many strawberries.
再不处理，只能送人了。
We're gonna have to give them away.
第二天，她带我去超市，我看到生鲜区摆着一篮篮草莓，每篮卖五毛钱。
So happens the next day, she took me to a grocery store, and I noticed in the produce section, had strawberries in these baskets for 50¢ a basket.
我心里就想，这地方有商机啊。
I thought to myself self, hey, there's a market.
回家后，我摘了一大堆草莓，把整个浴缸都装满了。
And I went home, I picked strawberries, filled the bath.
我们有一堆篮子放在车库里，装满草莓后，挨家挨户去卖。
We had a bunch of baskets sitting on the shelf in the garage, filled them up and marketed them, door to door.
一天结束的时候，你想想，也就一个多小时的活儿。
The end of the day, I mean, this is an hour and a half's work.
到那天结束，我赚了五块钱。
In the end of the day, I had $5.
那时候我每周的零花钱才一毛五分钱。
This is in a world in which my allowance was 15¢ a week.
天哪。
Wow.
然后我突然想到，那钱……那钱是……
And so all of a sudden, said What did what did
你家人对这事怎么看？
your family think of this?
我妈妈第一反应是，你这钱……是从邻居那儿拿来的？
Well, my mom was really first of all, she said, well, you you took those that money from our neighbors?
你明白吧？
You know?
我说，没有，那钱不是偷来的。
I said, no.
我可是提供了服务。
But I provided a service.
他们不用大老远跑去商店。
They didn't have to go all the way to the store.
没错。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
你就像南加州版的‘好鸡蛋’——不过‘好鸡蛋’好像还没到南加州，它在旧金山提供新鲜农场直送的生鲜杂货，送到家门口。
You're like the Good Eggs of, I I don't think Good Eggs is down in Southern California yet, but, it's fresh farm to table groceries delivered to your door in San Francisco.
特别棒。
It's wonderful.
我们家珍妮特别喜欢这个服务。
We Jenny loves it.
我们经常用。
We use it all the time.
现在有个问题。
Now here's the question.
我常常觉得，这改变了我的想法，让我明白。
I've often felt that that changed my brain to say, okay.
别按小时付钱，
Delink pay for hours
对，
Mhmm.
该按项目质量来付。
Into get a good project.
是的。
Yeah.
还是说，我本来就有个不一样的大脑，能一眼看出草莓和市场之间的联系？
Or did I have a brain that was different to begin to see that connection between strawberries and a marketplace?
对。
Yeah.
是先天还是后天。
Nurture or nature.
是先天还是后天。
Nature or nurture.
这个我真说不上来。
And and I can't answer that.
但是
But
但你自己确实看到了啊。
But you but you saw this yourself.
我的意思是，你妈可没告诉你去想，哦，对啊。
I mean, mom didn't tell you to go Oh, yeah.
开始卖草莓吧。
Start selling strawberries.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
那时候你肯定还不到十岁吧。
You must have been younger than 10 at this point.
是吧。
Right?
我那时候八岁。
I was eight.
真厉害。
Wow.
等你十岁左右，就开始做电视机维修的生意了。
And then when you were about 10, you started a TV repair business.
对吧？
That's Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这后来可帮了大忙。
And that would come in quite useful later, would imagine.
我一直是个喜欢捣鼓电子设备的孩子。
Well, I'd always been kind of a techie kid.
我对东西是怎么运作的特别好奇，这类事情。
I was always curious about how things worked and that sort of thing.
我看过一个来我家修电视的师傅。
And I watched a TV repairman that came to our house.
那时候电视又大又重，所以都是上门服务。
The TVs were big and bulky, and so it was all house calls.
那是六十年代吧？
And This was the 1960s?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
那是1953年。
This was 1953.
哇。
Wow.
我的意思是，你
I mean, you
那时候的电视简直就像一件家具。
know Real the TVs were like a piece of furniture.
是的。
Yeah.
价格差不多是一个月的工资。
And and basically cost a month's salary.
真厉害。
Wow.
你知道吧。
You know?
那完全是另一回事了。
So it was a different ballgame.
我注意到，那个修理工就光换电子管。
And, and I noticed that all the guy did was change tubes.
所以下次电视再出问题，我就想，我自己来试试。
And so the next time our TV failed, I said, I'm gonna give this a go.
当然了，
And, of course
我猜你第一次就成功了。
I'm sure it went great the first time.
结果我被电了一下，还有其他一堆问题。
Well, I got a shock and, you know, there were various things.
我学会了怎么给显像管放电，因为那玩意儿电压能高达一万五千伏，可不能随便碰。
I learned how to discharge the CRT because that, you know, it's popped up to 15,000 volts, and so you don't want to do that.
创业本来就有风险。
Entrepreneurship comes with risk.
是的。
Yeah.
不过那时候，电视背面的电路图上写着，有一个管子是垂直振荡器，另一个是第一中频放大管。
But, you know, in those days, the schematic on the back panel, one tube was the vertical oscillator, another one was the first IF.
突然间，我就能分辨出哪个是哪个了。
And so all of a sudden I could tell which was.
如果屏幕上下滚动得厉害，那就是垂直振荡器出问题了。
So if you had a lot of roll, that was the vertical oscillator.
要是出现别的状况，光看屏幕就能大概知道是哪儿坏了，简直自带诊断功能。
If it was you know, and so just by looking at the screen, it was almost self diagnostic.
所以我把它修好了。
And so I fixed it.
就这样，我找到了一个电子管的批发供应商。
And in doing so, I'd found a wholesale supplier of tubes.
这些都是电子管。
These are all tubes.
那时候还没出现半导体呢。
This is before semiconductors.
我可真是老一辈的人了。
I'm really old.
那时候连仙童公司都还没成立。
This is before Fairchild.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
于是我心想，说不定这中间真能做个生意。
And so I said, hey, maybe there's a business here.
于是我开始推销自己的技能。
And so I started marketing my skills.
那时候，上门服务收费五美元。
And in those days, a house call was was five bucks.
真厉害。
Wow.
所以你可以一整天都去卖草莓，或者只做一次上门服务就挣同样的钱。
And so you could spend all day selling strawberries or you could do one house call for the same amount.
不。
No,
但我可不信他们会让一个十岁的小孩钻进他们家车里，只收五美元。
but I didn't believe that they're gonna let a 10 year old kid get into the back of their thing for $5.
于是我决定把上门服务的价定为五毛钱。
So I decided to charge 50¢ for a house call.
你这是打价格战啊。
Oh, you undercut the market.
我把价格压得远远低于市场价。
I undercut the market a long way.
我的想法是，通过提高管子的加价来赚钱。
And my theory was that I would monetize a different way through marking up the tubes.
这招特别管用。
And that worked swimmingly.
这简直就像游戏卡带带动主机销售的模式。
It's almost like a cartridge did a console business.
过了几个月，我渐渐有了名气。
And then, you know, a couple of months in, I started getting a reputation.
于是我把上门服务的价格涨到了两块钱。
So I went up to a bucket house call and two.
这其实就是市场进入策略，先给个低价吸引人。
So it was a thing of market entry price, you know, you give a discount.
我就靠修电视赚了不少钱，就在附近几个街区转悠。
And I made a lot of money just repairing TV sets around the
这真是太棒了。
So so this is pretty awesome.
你那时候才十岁吧。
So, like, you're 10 years old.
你已经对电视机和当时电视技术有了不少经验。
You have your experience with TVs and the technology going into televisions at the time.
接下来你接触游戏世界，对吧？
Then your next job, I believe, you get exposure to the game world.
你下一段经历是在拉贡游乐园吗？
Is was your next adventure at Lagoon amusement park?
其实不是。
Actually not.
我的电视维修业务后来扩展成了全家电器维修，还加入了巴诺尔德家具公司。
My TV repair business turned into a full appliance repair business, and I became part of Barnold Furniture Company.
那时候我经常上门修理洗衣机、烘干机这类东西。
And, you know, with that, I would go out, I'd repair washers and dryers and and that sort of thing.
巴洛能收很高的费用，我拿一半。
And basically, Barlow would be able to charge a lot more and I'd get half.
一个十岁孩子能赚这么多，真不错。
Pretty good for a 10 year old.
是的。
Yeah.
那时候我十岁、十一岁、十二岁，一直到十六岁。
Well, this was 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.
我一直干到十八岁上大学为止。
I continued that until I went to college at 18.
你后来去了犹他州立大学。
And you started at Utah State.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Correct.
明白了。
Got it.
我当时住在兄弟会的宿舍，就开始接一些演出。
I was living at the fraternity house, and I started doing gigs.
那时候呢，有这么一种情况，我总是手头宽裕，因为我一直存钱。
Like, you know, in those days, there was this thing, and and I always had money because I I saved money.
你真是个生意人。
You've an entrepreneur.
我确实是个生意人。
I was an entrepreneur.
那时候流行一种叫‘二十块还二十五’的做法。
In those days, there was what they called 25 for 20.
意思是很多学生月底拿到父母给的生活费，到十五号就花光了。
And that means that a lot of the kids would get the check from their parents at the end of the month and they'd be out of money by the fifteenth.
所以我借给他们二十块，但他们得还我二十五。
And so I'd lend them $20, but they had to give me 25.
这是长期的早期阶段。
It's early long term.
二十五借二十。
25 for twenty.
对。
Yeah.
二十五借二十的年利率是多少？
What's the APR on twenty five for twenty?
你什么时候收还款？
When did you need to collect it by?
哦。
Oh,
每月五号。
the fifth of, of the month.
那五号是五天后吧
Was a fifth Five days then to
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
哇哦。
Wow.
这太棒了。
That's awesome.
我明白你为什么会做嘉年华这一行了。
I can see how you got into the carnival business.
对吧？
Right?
哦，没错。
Oh, yeah.
我挺合适的。
I'm a fit.
我是个游乐园从业者。
I'm a carny.
所以那时候，这些生意相当赚钱，尤其是对学生来说。
So you have these quite I mean, at the time, like, quite lucrative, especially for a college student.
生意一直在做。
Business is going on.
我开过一辆MGA跑车，后来换成了奔驰190SL。
Well, I was driving a a, MGA sports car, and later on, I traded in for a Mercedes one ninety SL.
别人有没有对你投来奇怪的眼光，觉得你哪来那么多钱买这种车？
Were were you getting any funny looks from people that are like, how are you getting all that money to to buy cars like that?
就像我说的，其实没人太在意这个。
You know, nobody really thought about it that much, like I said.
但后来我做了一个特别成功的项目，叫校园公司。
But then I did a really good one, and this was called the campus company.
这个校园公司是个学生博客，专门发布校园活动日历，我在边上卖广告，每学期初免费发给学生们。
And The Campus Company was a student blogger that had a calendar of events in the center, and I'd sell advertising around the side and give it away free to the kids at the beginning of the quarter.
我每期能卖五千美元的广告，但印刷和免费发放才花五百美元。
And I'd sell $5,000 worth of advertising, and it cost me $500 to print it and give them away.
我当时不知道的是，一旦做起来，每个学期学生都会继续订，根本不用重新拉新客户。
The part that I didn't know is that once you did that, I'd do it for every quarter, Everybody would re up.
我只需要补上那几个没续订的就行了。
So I only had to sell a couple who had fallen out.
所以这事儿简直轻而易举。
So it was like nothing.
我从犹他州立大学，做到犹他大学，再到杨百翰大学，最后到韦伯州立大学。
So I went from Utah State to the University of Utah to BYU to Weber State.
突然间，我手里的业务覆盖了整个地区所有大学。
And so all of a sudden I had, had- You
整个地区的大学全都有了。
had all the colleges in the area.
是的。
Yeah.
所有这些大学都参与了这五千份的发放。
All the colleges in the 5,000 piece.
因为我负责销售，每次去男装店，我就说：你可以付我一百五十块，或者直接给我一件西装。
Since I was doing the sales, when I'd go to a men's wear place, I'd say, you know, you can pay me, you know, a $150 or I I I'll take a suit.
而且而且
And and
我弄到了一辆踏板车。
I got a moped.
我收到了
I got
天哪，真厉害。
Oh, wow.
我收了一大堆好东西。
I got all kinds of great stuff.
太惊人了。
Amazing.
太厉害了。
That's amazing.
这就像是用回形针换了一栋房子。
It's like the trading the paper clip for the house.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
哇哦。
Wow.
我提到校园公司，是因为它其实是我拿到游乐园工作的关键原因。
So the reason I bring up Campus Company because that was actually the driver for me to get the job at the amusement park.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
明白了。
Okay.
我一直想不通，你为什么非得去游乐园打工赚钱。
I was wondering why you needed the money to work and work at the amusement park.
那时候我一边上大学，一边维持着还算不错的生活水平。
It was a thing where I was putting myself through college at a relatively good lifestyle.
对。
Mhmm.
确实如此。
I'll say.
这么说吧。
Let's put it this way.
我这个人，表面上看很散漫，实际上很有原则。
I am an undisciplined, disciplined person.
在短期目标上，我确实有点管不住自己。
That is when it comes to short term, I'm somewhat undisciplined.
比如犹他州的夏夜，跟女孩子出去玩，花钱可太容易了。
That is a summer night in Utah going out with girls and things, you can spend a lot of money.
所以我决定找份有趣的工作，在游乐园上班，好让自己远离麻烦。
And I decided that in order to remove harm's way, I get a fun job at the amusement park.
没错。
Right.
这样你就不会在外面瞎混了。
It keep you off the streets.
让我远离街头。
Get me off the streets.
这就是为什么我说，从长远来看我很有自律，但短期上就管不住自己。
And it was and that's why I say I'm disciplined in terms of long term strategy, but undisciplined when it comes to short term.
你得
You have
避开诱惑。
to remove temptation.
对极了。
Exactly.
这违背了我一条原则，突然间我开始为了工资而工作，为了
It violated kind of one of my rules, which all of a sudden I was working for a paycheck for for
对。
Yeah.
用时间换钱。
Trading time for dollars.
用时间换钱。
Trading time for dollars.
但后来我发现，游戏区有提成，只要业绩超了就有额外收入。
But then I discovered that in the games department, they paid commission when you did above that.
于是我一下子就把每小时25美分的工作，变成了每小时2块5，翻了三倍。
And so all of a sudden, I could turn this dollar 25¢ an hour job into a $2.50 an hour job, which was triple.
整天都忙个不停。
Full day.
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你赚的钱是值得的。
You're making money that's worth it.
是的。
Yeah.
后来因为有佣金这个机制
And then because of the commission thing
这是套圈游戏吗？
Is this skee ball?
套圈、猜体重、打翻牛奶瓶，还有把球扔进篮子里那种。
Ske ball, guess your weight, knock the milk bottles down, you know, get the ball to stay in the basket.
你赚得最多的是哪一项？
What'd you make the most money on?
就是哪种游戏，人们根本停不下来？
Like, what were people just like they just couldn't keep themselves away from?
有个游戏叫‘推倒它’。
A game called tip them over.
用的是个软式垒球，每人只给一次投掷机会。
And it was a softball, and it was a one throw.
你总觉得自己能一下就把它们全撞倒。
You always think that you can knock them over.
理论上是能倒，但其实特别难。
Well, you kind of can, but it's really hard.
但这游戏特别适合营销，因为规则是每赚三块钱，就得送出去一块钱。
But it's it's perfect for marketing strategy because the way the games work is you were supposed to give away $1 for every $3 that you made.
所以你的摊位得控制在33.3%的奖品成本率。
So you were to run your booth at a 33.3% merchandise percentage.
那些瓶子的设置是两个重的在下面，两个轻的在上面。
The way the bottles worked, there were two heavies and two lights, And the two heavies were on the bottom and the two lights were on the top.
除非你想送动物奖品，那时候就把重的放上面、轻的放下面，稍微来点风就能把它们吹倒。
Unless you wanted to give an animal away, then you'd put the heavies on the top and the lights on the bottom, and then a small breeze would knock them
倒下来。
down.
所以。
So
我们有个舞厅和一个音乐演出场地。
we had a dance hall and and a concert venue.
是的。
Yeah.
于是人们会带着约会对象过来，看海滩男孩乐队之类的演出。
And so people would come down with dates to go see the Beach Boys or what have you.
对。
Uh-huh.
高中生们总是成群结队地来。
The high school kids, they'd come in clusters.
通常是橄榄球队队长和啦啦队队长带头。
And there'd be the captain of the football team and the head cheerleader.
然后还有内森，你知道的，
And then there'd be, you know, Nathan,
就是那种高中里典型的普通人。
the Someone like us in high school.
是的。
Yeah.
内森，那个给球员递水的男孩。
Nathan, the the the water boy.
我高中时是橄榄球队的队长。
I was captain of my high school football
队里的成员。
team.
那真不错。
That's great.
我肯定不是。
I was definitely not.
我当时在查克·伊奇。
I was at Chuck E.
奶酪店。
Cheese.
所以呢，轮到当水童的纳森上场时，我就堆一摞奖品，他为了娶图书馆员能赢一个奖品。
So anyway, what I do is when it came time for Nathan the water boy to throw, I'd set a stack and he'd win one for marrying the librarian his state.
我们真的特别感谢你。
Oh, we are so grateful for you.
这彻底颠覆了橄榄球队队长的世界观。
It would turn the worldview of the head of the football team upside down.
所以我能把他所有的钱都掏空，因为他不想让
And so I could extract all the money he had because he wasn't going to let the
天哪。
Oh my goodness.
首席啦啦队队长没拿到毛绒玩具。
The the head cheerleader to go without a stuffed animal.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
这太精彩了。
That's spectacular.
太厉害了。
That is amazing.
这招真是阴险。
It was diabolical.
我在想象未来酒吧里玩乒乓球营销的场景。
I'm envisioning the Pong marketing strategy in the future in in bars here.
那之后那个夏天，你就转学到犹他大学了吗？
But was it after that summer then that you transferred to the University of Utah?
是的。
Yeah.
我拿到那份工作后，其实有一年空档，去了利顿工业公司做航空航天相关工作，在无尘室里搞导航系统之类的。
What happened is once I got the job, there was actually a gap year when I went to work for Litton Industries in aerospace and in a clean room doing guidance systems and things like that.
所以你在犹他州立大学学的是工程？
So you were studying engineering at Utah State?
没错。
Correct.
后来在兄弟会住的时候，我发现工程专业作业实在太多。
And then when I was in the fraternity house, I decided that engineering took too much homework.
于是我就转到了哲学，接着又转到经济学，最后学了数学。
And so I transferred over to philosophy, then to economics and then mathematics.
其实就是想偷个懒，不用埋头做那么多作业。
Was just really about being able to screw around and not do so much homework.
慢慢地我就真喜欢上了。
I kind of got into it.
我挺享受这种自由自在的生活。
I like the Carney life.
这种感觉真的会让人上瘾。
It does get into your
我猜也是。
I bet.
但当我被提拔为部门主管时，是因为我干得不错，而之前那个主管辞职了。
But when they made me manager of the department, because I was good at it and one of the guys, the guys was the manager quit.
于是我就被选中当了主管。
And so I was chosen to be manager.
我手下有150个员工，我才20岁，得培训他们，管人力分配，还要安排各种事务。
I had 150 kids working for me and I'm 20 years old and had to train them and manage the labor percentages and set up things.
我就开始调整游戏设置，好增加收入。
And I started changing the games to increase the revenue.
很多时候公园人满为患，但我们玩的项目却不够多。
A lot of times when the park was packed, we were undergamed.
你把一轮的周转时间缩短，就能多赚。
The faster you could get a cycle time, the more
钱就越多。
money you can make.
对。
Yeah.
所以那个泻湖乐园的人均消费是全国游乐园里最高的。
And so the lagoon had the highest per caps of any amusement park in the nation.
当我快大学毕业的时候
So when I got ready to graduate from college
是的。
Yeah.
我当时收到了来自各地的offer。
I actually had offers from all over.
比如大美乐园这样的公司，本来我可以继续留在游乐园行业。
I had from Great American, things like that, where I could have stayed in the amusement park game business.
对啊。
Yeah.
真厉害。
Wow.
薪资远高于我当助理工程师能拿到的待遇。
At significantly more money than I could have gotten as an associate engineer.
真厉害。
Wow.
但我跟自己说，我有这份传承在身。
But I said, hey, I've got that legacy.
对。
Yeah.
那就是永恒之林。
That's that's Evergreen.
我的工程学位可不能就这么算了。
My engineering degree is not gonna be that way.
我得积累点实际经验。
I need some experience.
我得去亲身体验一下。
I need to go what it is.
那咱们来聊聊这个。
So, so let's talk about that.
你去犹他大学的时候，那会儿它可是计算机科学领域的前沿重镇，尤其是在计算机
When you get to the University of Utah, the University of Utah at this time is like an amazing place in pioneering computer science and in particular computer
图形学方面，对吧？
graphics, right?
没错。
Exactly.
当时全球有四个顶尖地方，斯坦福大学的斯坦福人工智能项目。
Four, four places in the world, Stanford, Stanford AI project.
是的。
Yep.
麻省理工学院。
MIT.
没错。
Mhmm.
香槟-厄巴纳。
Champaign Urbana.
对。
Mhmm.
犹他大学，其实并不在那四个地方之列。
And the University of Utah, which doesn't belong.
但真正关键的是埃文斯博士，他后来创办了埃文斯与萨瑟兰公司。
But it was really doctor Evans, the guy who later founded the Evans and Sutherland.
是的。
Yep.
对听众来说，当时在那里的还有艾伦·凯、约翰·沃诺克——Adobe的创始人，还有吉姆·克拉克，他和马克·安德森共同创立了网景。
And for listeners too, I mean, of the other people who were there around this time, Alan Kay was there, John Warnock, who founded Adobe, Jim Clark, who had cofound Netflix with Marc Andreessen.
网景。
Netscape.
奈飞。
Netflix.
没错。
Yes.
网景公司。
Netscape.
然后当然是埃德·卡特穆尔。
And then, of course, Ed Catmull.
我得问问，你那时候他在吗？
I have to ask, was Ed there at the same time that you were?
真厉害。
Wow.
我一直觉得自己是个廉价又粗糙的人，因为我做的是游戏。
And I always thought that I was kind of the the cheap and dirty guy because I was doing gaming.
所有这些人
All these
这些人都在搞顶尖技术。
all these guys were doing great tech.
哇。
Wow.
那时候你知道吗？你说你们被叫做犹他小组。
Did did you know at that time I mean, you say you were called the Utah guys.
你当时有没有意识到，这个地方和这群人，其实就像是孕育出整个科技行业根基的原始汤？还是说你根本没觉得？
Did did you have a sense at the time that this place and this group of people are sort of a a special primordial soup of what would become the foundations of the technology industry, or were you like Not
完全没概念。
a clue.
这些人看起来都很聪明。
These people seem smart.
我觉得自己挺聪明的，但好像又有点土，像个江湖艺人似的。
I feel smart, but kinda dirty and this carny, like
是的。
Yeah.
我真不知道。
I I no.
我压根没想到，这一切后来会这么有预见性。
I I had no idea that it was going to be prescient.
说实话，你从小到大经历的这些事，居然全凑在一起了，真挺不可思议的。
I mean, it's pretty amazing that you have this, you know, we spent all this time when you're growing up, but it's all three of these things.
那是你的创业直觉。
It's your entrepreneurial instincts.
你在游乐园管运营学会了管理，又在犹他州接触到顶尖的工程和图形环境，这些我们待会儿再聊接下来的事。
You learn management running the amusement park and then this incredible engineering and graphics environment that you're in at Utah and all of those kind of, we'll talk in a sec about what comes next.
我常说自己这一生就是一连串的意外之喜，或者说机缘巧合。再说下去，我去加州在安培克斯工作的时候……
I've often said that my life has been a series of happy mistakes, you know, you know, or serendipity because to add to that, when I went to California and worked for Ampex
安培克斯当时给好莱坞和音乐行业做录音设备。
And Ampex made recording equipment for like Hollywood and And, music
对。
yeah.
我在那儿真正打磨了自己的数字技术和视频技能。
And so what I learned there was really polishing my digital skills and my video skills.
那时候我们用的是大型计算机。
So we had the big computers.
我学会了编程，但那时候我们用的电脑主频只有750千赫。
I learned how to program, but the computers we were working on had a clock speed of seven fifty kilohertz.
天哪。
Oh boy.
电脑屏幕用的都是矢量图形，因为光栅扫描需要3.58兆赫的数据带宽。
And the screens that were on the computers were all vector graphic because raster scan wants 3.58 megahertz of data.
虽然电脑的地址空间很大，有64位，能做些复杂的运算，但速度就是慢得不行。
And so if your computer is going seven fifty now, they had a wide address space and 64 bits, you know, so you could do some serious calculations.
速度真的慢到不行。
But they weren't fast at all.
屏幕上那个球，或者像《太空侵略者》这样的游戏，根本动不起来。
Ball on the screen or the, you know, Space Invaders weren't gonna move very fast.
早期的电子游戏其实不是冯·诺依曼架构的。
Well, what would happen is remember that the early video games were not Von Neumann architecture.
它们本质上就是复杂的信号发生器。
They were basically complex signal generators.
你还玩过《太空大战》呢！
And and you had, you played Spacewar!
就是在犹他大学的时候。
Back at Utah.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Correct.
就是《太空大战》。
So Spacewar!
这是历史上第一款为计算机开发的游戏。
Was the first game ever built for a computer.
对吧？
Right?
我说的是，我之所以能有今天，全靠史蒂夫·拉塞尔的奠基，他当时在麻省理工的铁路模型俱乐部搞出了这个游戏，用的是
I mean, I stand I stand on the shoulders of of Steve Russell, who who did that as the MIT Hobby Railroad division, and he did that on a
是用纸板做的。
paperboard.
后来在全美各地流传，最后到了犹他州？
Traded around and end up at Utah and other places around the country?
那时候可没法像现在这样从网上下载。
I mean, it wasn't like you could just download it off the Internet.
对吧？
Right?
它就是
It was it
一种数字设备。
was digital equipment.
大家觉得这玩意儿挺有意思，就随每台电脑一起发出去了。
Basically thought it was a cool hack and just shipped it with every computer that they sold.
真酷。
Oh, Cool.
所以每台设备，那些是小型计算机吗？还是各有不同？
So every deck, were were these mini computers or were these different?
我们用的是PDP-8和PDP-10。
The PDP, the one that we'd used was a PDP eight and a PDP 10.
明白了。
Okay.
犹他那边从来没有PDP-1，而原始代码正是基于这个机型。
Utah, they never had a PDP one, which is what the original source code was.
真的吗？
Wow.
所以他们就把这东西一起打包发出去了。
And so they shipped it.
这就好比是当时的纸牌游戏一样。
This was it was like the the solitaire of Yeah.
太厉害了。
Wow.
玩的是《太空大战！》
With Spacewar!
这太惊人了。
That's incredible.
所以那是你第一次看到《太空大战！》吗？
And so the was it the first time that you saw Spacewar!
那时候你才真正意识到，这种游戏能开创出下一代游戏的可能吗？
That you really realized what could be possible in creating this next generation of games?
我当时负责游戏部门，手头有几台街机，所以很清楚一台投币游戏机的成本和它得赚多少钱。
I managing the games department, I had a couple of arcades, so I knew intimately what a coin operated game cost and what it had to earn.
我就想，要是有这么个屏幕，再加个投币口，肯定能赚大钱。
And I said, if I had this screen with a coin slot, it'd earn a lot of money.
对。
Mhmm.
但那些机器成本得上百万。
But those machines cost, like, 1,000,000 Yeah.
你知道吗，25美分玩三分钟，却要摊到一台百万美元的电脑上。
3 you know, 25¢ for three minutes into a half $1,000,000 or a million dollar computer.
这账根本算不通。
The math didn't work.
你根本不可能靠这台机器回本。
You're never gonna recover the cost of the machine itself.
但我算了好几遍，觉得也许有一天能行。
But I went through the math, and I said maybe someday.
是的。
Yeah.
然后
And then
你去Ampex的时候，那会儿刚过不久，Fairchild刚成立，还有我们之前在Sequoia集子里聊过的National Semiconductor。
So when you arrive at Ampex, this was shortly after, like, Fairchild had gotten set up and National Semiconductor, which we talked about on the Sequoia episodes.
后来National率先把芯片制造外包到亚洲，让芯片价格大幅下降。
So National then pioneered outsourcing fabrication of chips to Asia, and that dropped the price of chips hugely.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
有一天，我记得在安佩克斯的办公室里，我正在用这些芯片做电路。
One day, I can remember sitting in my office at at Ampex and glue chips.
那时候德州仪器出了7400系列和9300系列的芯片。
There was a thing called a 7,400 series from TI and the 9,300 series.
这些都属于基础元件，比如触发器和逻辑门，还有各种门电路。
They were basically glue parts, flip flops, and gates, or gates Mhmm.
所有的布尔逻辑功能都能用它们实现。
Exclusive or all all the Boolean constructs.
没错。
Yep.
价格从每片两美元，一路跌到了十五美分。
And they went from $2 a chip to 15¢ a chip.
哇哦。
Wow.
所以价格跌得特别猛，简直是降了两个数量级。
And so it was that precipitous I mean, two orders of magnitude.
我当时想，也许现在可以了。
And I said, maybe now.
这个数学模型或许行得通。
This math might work.
快接近了。
Getting close.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
巧的是，那个星期三晚上，我在湾区开始下围棋了。
Coincidentally, that Wednesday night in the Bay Area, I became a Go player.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
当时有个
And there was a
我知道我们马上就要聊到围棋了。
We I knew we were gonna get into Go in a minute.
嗯，当时有个
Well, there was a
围棋，就是那个叫围棋的游戏。
Go Go being the the game Go.
对。
Yeah.
围棋这个游戏。
The game Go.
旧金山有一家佛教寺庙，里面设了一个24小时开放的围棋室。
And there was a Buddhist church in San Francisco that had a twenty four seven go parlor.
哦，真厉害。
Oh, wow.
太惊人了。
Wow.
所以我经常过去，一般带19块7毛钱。
And so I could just go up there and and and I would generally show $19.70?
那是1968年的事。
This was 1968.
是的。
Yeah.
我通常周日早上八点过去，下到三点或四点，每个周末都这样，成了我的固定安排。
And so I would go up probably 08:00 on a Sunday morning and I'd play until three or four, and every weekend that was kind of my go to.
那时候我住在加利福尼亚的圣克拉拉。
But I was living in Santa Clara, California at the time.
另外，斯坦福大学有个围棋社，每周三晚上都活动。
And additionally, Stanford had a Go club that met every Wednesday evening.
我就去参加了，还跟那儿的几个棋手一起下棋。
And so I'd attend that and I got playing with a couple of the Go players there.
其中有个叫吉姆·斯坦的人，是斯坦福人工智能实验室的研究生。
And one of the guys was named Jim Stein, who was a graduate student working at the Stanford AI Lab.
有一次下完围棋，他跟我说：嘿。
And after we played Go one time, he says, hey.
你想不想玩《太空大战》？
Do you want to play Spacewar!
我一听，天啊。
I said, holy shit.
我上大学以后就没再玩过了。
I haven't played it since I was in college.
是的。
Yeah.
那必须得玩啊。
Let's do that.
于是大概晚上十点，我们离开了斯坦福的围棋社。
And so we left the Stanford Goat Club probably 10:00.
对。
Yeah.
之后我们就去了人工智能实验室，玩起了《太空大战！》。
And we played we went up to the AI lab and played Spacewar!
估计一直玩到凌晨三四点才走。
Probably until three or four.
说真的，我老婆都快被我气死了。
This is I mean My wife is not amused.
你肯定听过好多人说这个，但我上大学的时候，本，你上大学那会肯定也一样，就该这么玩啊。晚上从食堂吃完晚饭回来，就说，行吧。
I'm sure you heard this many times, but, like, when I was in college, Ben, I'm sure when you were in college, like, this is what you do, you know, like be at night, like, like get back from dinner at the dining hall and be like, oh, Alright.
咱们要一起玩马里奥卡丁车，一直玩到凌晨四点。
We're gonna play Mario Kart till four in the morning.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
或者我们要
Or we're
玩《光环》。
gonna play Halo.
马里奥赛车，你们是第一代这么玩的。
Mario Kart you were the first generation that was doing this.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我说了，当时芯片价格下跌，再加上我重新接触到《太空大战》，这两件事一起促使我决定现在就干这件事。
And so that was I said, you know, those two situations, the drop in the chip price and my reacquaintance with Spacewar were concomitantly the driver that said, let's do this now.
对于了解雅达利的人来说，他们可能想到的是2600主机，或者至少是家里玩的那种游戏机。
For folks that know of Atari, they're probably imagining the the the 2600, or they're imagining, at the very least, something they're playing at their homes.
根本不是这么开始的。
That's not how it started.
对。
No.
一开始是做投币游戏机生意的。
It started as a coin operated game business.
其实最早是从剪刀游戏开始的。
Well, it started as scissor g.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Correct.
而且
And
你别纠正诺兰，大卫。
You can't correct Nolan, David.
不对。
No.
对。
Correct.
是他知道事情是怎么开始的。
It's He knows how it started.
我只是想说，那时候还没到雅达利那一步。
Well, I'm just I'm just putting it wasn't Atari yet.
最初的想法是我们要做一个工作室，为厂商设计游戏，然后拿版税。
And so the original plan was that we were going to be a studio, and we would design games for manufacturers and get a royalty.
这本来就是我们最初的计划。
That was that was the original plan.
我们让一些东西在屏幕上动了起来。
We got some things moving around on the screen.
我去看牙医的时候，跟他说了我这个项目。
I went to the dentist and told him about my project.
他跟我说，你应该去找这个人，他是纳廷联合公司的市场总监。
And he says, Oh, you should call this guy, which was the head of marketing for Nutting Associates.
我根本不知道他们也在城里。
I didn't even know they were in town.
真的吗？
Wow.
你知道吗？
Know?
他们是一家投币式游戏机制造商。
Were game A coin operator game manufacturer.
在山景城。
In Mountain View.
我就过去给他们看了这个游戏。
And I went up and showed them the game.
他们说，嗯，我们愿意买下这个项目的授权。
They said, Yeah, I think we'd be willing to license this.
他们说，不过呢，我们现在没有首席工程师，我觉得之前那位也搞不懂这种技术。
They said, But, you know, we don't have a chief engineer now, and I don't think they, you know, the one we had would understand this technology.
你有空吗？
Are you available?
我说，我不确定。
I said, I don't know.
我收费可不便宜。
I'm pretty expensive.
那当然了。
Of course you did.
这么说来，我是不是听起来特像街头小贩？
So I sound like such a carny, don't I?
太好了。
Great.
没错。
This Yeah.
另外，我记得我笔记里提到过，这个我们之前没聊到。
Well, also, I mean, this is like, you were I had in my notes we didn't cover.
我是说，当年我们在Sequoia第一期里聊到的那些创业的人，比如SAID的那位，还有类似的人，都是那种特别硬核的科学家和工程师，你知道的，Rob。
I mean, the people that were starting companies that we talked about on, you know, part one of the Sequoia episode at this time, the trader of SAID and the like, these are hardcore scientist engineering types, you know, Rob.
他们通常都四十多岁。
Usually in their forties.
他们通常才二十多岁。
Usually in their twenties.
你应该是第一个真正意义上的极客型创业者。
You were the first, I think, real, like, hacker type entrepreneur.
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
对。
Yeah.
我经常说，我为盖茨和乔布斯都开了个头。
I I've I've often said that I blazed the trail for both gates and jobs.
你懂的。
You know?
就是证明了这事儿真能做成。
You know, just proving that it could be done.
对。
Yeah.
因为他们看起来根本不像戈登·摩尔或者鲍勃·诺伊斯那样的人。
I mean, because they didn't look like, you know, Gordon Moore and Bob Noire.
这就像是五英里跑的瓶颈，大家以前都说不可能，结果有人做到了。
It's it's kinda like the the five minute mile problem where people say, well, it can't be done, and then someone does it.
然后一下子，很多人被唤醒了，意识到世界已经接受二十出头的天才CEO了，于是这一波人就冒出来了。
And then suddenly, there's this massive wave after them of people that are awoken to the the world is accepting of young, brilliant, 20 CEOs, and boom, we have this wave of them.
这点毫无疑问。
No question about it.
是的。
Yeah.
但我得先把我的做完。
Oh, but I gotta I gotta finish mine.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
拜托了。
Please.
你之前搞了个剪刀工程公司，是吧？
The So you had set up scissor g engineering.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
然后我就去了纳廷公司。
And then I went to Nutting.
我说，我挺贵的。
I said, I'm pretty expensive.
他们问：那你要多少？
And they said, well, how much?
我当时在安佩克斯公司月工资是850美元。
I was making $850 a month at Ampex.
对。
Mhmm.
我说要1600美元。
I said $1,600.
是的。
Yeah.
他们答应得也太快了。
They said yes too quickly.
哇哦。
Woah.
哦，所以你把它们留在桌上了。
Oh, so you left them on the table.
公司配的车。
Company car.
对。
Yeah.
所以呢。
So
那后来是怎么变成雅达利的呢？
how did that turn into what would become Atari then?
硅谷有几样优势，我觉得被大家低估了。
Silicon Valley has a couple of things going for it that are, I think, underappreciated.
几乎每个人身边都认识那么一两个，离开后自己创业，赚得盆满钵满。
One is that almost everybody knows intimately somebody that went off, started something and made a gobsmack full of money.
他们就说，我认识那个人，或者那个人，但我比他们聪明多了。
And they say, I know that guy or that girl, and I'm smarter than they are.
我在这儿朝九晚五地上班，他们却在外面赚大钱。
And I'm sitting here doing nine to five and they're out making a lot of money.
对。
Yeah.
我也能行。
I can do it.
说来也有趣。
You know, it's funny.
我可能以前在节目里提过，我上商学院的时候，比你晚了很多年，但就在斯坦福。
I, I think I might have referred to this on the show before, but I went to business school at Stanford many years after you were there.
但我觉得最让人震撼的是，那些创业者会来给我们讲课、参与案例讨论、办午餐分享会，我们突然就意识到，他们也不过就是普通人。
But I think that was one of the most powerful things is like all these entrepreneurs would come talk to us, guest teach classes, be there for cases, do lunchtime events for us, and we just you just realize, like, they're just people too.
没什么特别的。
Like, there's nothing special about that.
不过我有个实际的优势，就是Nutting公司最早做了电脑游戏。
But then I had a real advantage with Nutting because Nutting put the first computer space in.
突然间，你就开始注意到，觉得这些人真是蠢货。
And all of a sudden, you start noticing and saying, these guys are bozos.
他们每个月给我发一千六百美元。
They're paying me $1,600 a month.
我还有一辆公司车。
I have a company car.
他们到底在搞什么？
What are they doing?
他们把销售主管给开了，就因为这家伙拿的佣金太高。
Well, they they they fired the head of sales because he was making too much money on commission.
这可真是蠢到家了。
Now that is a real bozo move.
这确实太蠢了。
That's a really bozo move.
所以到了下一场游戏的时候，我就想，我真不想跟这些人绑在一起。
And and so when it came time for the next game, I said, I really don't want to hang my star with these guys.
对。
Mhmm.
没错。
Mhmm.
因为他们做事总是缩手缩脚。
You know, because they will under produce.
他们老是斤斤计较，抠抠搜搜的。
They'll they'll nickel and dime things.
我做人一直信奉一条原则：要么干大的，要么干脆不干。
And my theory in life has always been go big or go home.
是的。
Yeah.
很明显。
Clearly.
所以到那时候，我就说：我得走了，但我会给你们设计下一个游戏，只是得签合同。
And so when it came time for that, I said, you know, I'm gonna have to leave, and I will design your next game, but we'll do it under a contract.
他们都不知道，我早就跟米德韦和巴利签了合同。
Little be known to them, I'd already gotten a contract from mid Midway and Bali.
所以我手上有两个合同作为依据。
So I had two contracts to based on.
这太棒了。
That's great.
那你当时是游戏设计师？
And so you were game designer.
那款游戏的开发，你也是主要的工程师吗？
Were you also the sort of lead engineer on that first game, with them?
明白了。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
我是首席工程师。
I was lead engineer.
我基本上包办了所有工作，那就是那个太空场景。
I basically did all of the And that was the space,
那本质上是个商业化了的太空战争游戏。
which was a commercialized space war, basically.
没错。
Precisely.
是的。
Yeah.
接下来是另一个完全偶然的转折。
We come to the next chapter of total serendipity.
我的第一位工程师，阿尔康，嗯。
My first engineer, Alcorn Mhmm.
他其实是我的技术助手，当时在加州大学伯克利分校参加勤工俭学项目。
Was actually my tech, And he was in a work study program at Berkeley.
他每做六个月的技术工作，就回伯克利读六个月书，然后再回来继续帮我。
And he'd do six months on and then six months at Berkeley and then six months as my tech.
结果发现，史蒂夫·布里斯托是他的替补人选。
It turns out that Steve Bristow was his alternate.
原来如此。
Ah.
这两个人，当雅达利成立后，布里斯托成了工程主管，而阿尔科恩则负责研究部门。
And both of those guys like, when Atari came along, Bristow became head of engineering, and Alcorn became head of research.
他们都是特别出色的工程师。
They were brilliant engineers.
确实很厉害，但风格完全不同。
They were really good, but very different.
阿尔更注重严谨。
Al was much more rigorous.
这既是他的优势，也是他的短板。
That was his brilliance and his downfall.
他面试三十个人，一个都看不上。
He would interview 30 people and not find one that was acceptable.
不过，是他把史蒂夫·乔布斯介绍给你的吗？
Although, is he the one who brought Steve Jobs to you?
是的。
Yeah.
所以他总算找到一个还不错的。
So he he found one who was pretty good.
对。
Yeah.
不过他不是工程师。
Although not an engineer.
但后来呢
But But then
我们马上就会说到。
We'll get there.
但布里斯托，如果你说好吧。
But Bristol, if you said, okay.
我们还得再搞二十个项目。
We need another 20 projects.
对。
Mhmm.
而且得在接下来十五分钟内搞定。
And we need it in the next fifteen minutes.
他会出去跑。
He'd go out.
他会招一堆人。
He'd hire a bunch of people.
然后该开除的开除，该调整的调整。
He'd fire some and what have you.
我的意思是，他就是那种见事就上、手忙脚乱的人。
I mean, he was he would he was a scrambler.
会乱成一团，但事儿能办成。
It'd be messy, but it'd done.
虽然乱七八糟，但事情能搞定。
It'd be messy, but it'd get done.
没错。
Exactly.
但Al第一天来我们这儿上班的时候
But the first day that Al came to work for us
而我们那时候刚成立一家公司，
And us being now this new company that
正在接外包项目。
is working on contract.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
就在同一天，我听说Magnevox在伯林盖姆的一个展会上展示了电子游戏。
It was the same day that I'd heard about Magnevox showing a video game at a trade show up in in Burlingame.
是的。
Yeah.
于是我过去看了，那玩意儿根本就是个模拟时代的垃圾。
And so I went up and I saw this thing, and it was an analog piece of crap.
我当时就想，这地方压根儿没人跟它竞争。
And and I said, gee, you know, there's no competition here.
但我环顾四周，发现大家正在玩这个乒乓球游戏，看起来还挺开心的。
But I looked around, and they were playing this ping pong game, and it looked and they were having fun with it.
可这东西问题多得数不清。
And and and there was so many things wrong with it.
连计分都没有。
There was no score.
也没有声音。
There was no sound.
确实没计分。
There's no score.
谁会玩这个呢？
Who's gonna play that?
是的。
Yeah.
我可不只是想做这个。
I'm going not just that.
你打完球之后，还能通过拧旋钮来改变球的运动状态。
After you hit the ball, you could change the the dynamics of it with by twisting a knob.
你没法调整
You don't get to change the
膝盖。
knee.
对。
Yeah.
明白吗？
Know?
你坐在上面了。
You're sit on it.
你明白吧？
You know?
这在好多方面都完全不对。
That's just wrong on so many levels.
是的。
Yeah.
不过它用的是模拟技术。
So So it was analog, though.
像是用真空管运行的那种？
Like, it was running on, like, vacuum tubes?
不是。
No.
里面有RC时间常数。
There's RC time constants.
所以，简单来说，如果你有个电容和一个电阻，电压会随着充放电速度变化，从而产生一个电压差。
So, basically, if you have a capacitor and a resistor, it'll change the voltage based on how fast it is, and that gives you a delta V.
真难以想象，早期的电子游戏居然是模拟信号的。
It's kind of incredible that the early video games were actually analog.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Oh, yeah.
我是说，拉尔夫·贝尔的这些设计真的非常关键。
I mean, Ralph Baer, with these designs, really important.
事实上，早在史蒂夫·拉塞尔在麻省理工学院开发游戏之前，世界上第一款游戏就已经出现了——那是布鲁克黑文国家实验室里，一个叫威利·希金博坦的人用示波器玩的模拟游戏，这里把来龙去脉说清楚了。
The very in fact, the very first game that predated Steve Russell's at MIT was an analog game played on an oscilloscope at the Brookhaven National Labs with a guy named Willie Higginbotham in terms of full history disclosure here.
都是站在前人的肩膀上发展的。
Always building on the shoulders of giants.
对。
Yeah.
明白了。
Okay.
所以你见过飞利浦的那款游戏机。
So you saw the Magnavox.
你觉得那玩意儿简直烂透了。
You thought things a piece of crap.
是的。
Yeah.
但我心想，用咱们的技术，说不定能做出个有趣的游戏。
But I said, you know, using our technology, maybe this would be a fun game.
更重要的是，我需要给阿尔找个练手的项目。
But more than that, I needed a test project for Al Mhmm.
因为计算机空间这东西太复杂了。
Because computer space was really complex.
我觉得，作为学习项目，最好把大问题拆成小块，让人更容易理解技术。
And I thought, you know, as a as a learning project, what you wanna do is bite size things down to get people to understand the tech.
于是我跟他说了这个游戏的构想，告诉他这就是你的第一个项目。
And so I described the game and I said, that's your first project.
连个设计文档或者规格说明都没有。
And no, like, design doc or spec.
就是大概给他讲了下会怎么做。
It was like, here's kind of how it's going go.
对。
Yeah.
这是一块黑板。
This is a blackboard.
对。
Yeah.
那时候白板还没发明出来。
Before whiteboards had been invented.
我说你得在几周内搞定，因为我感觉我能把它卖给通用电气。
And I said, you got to get it done in a few weeks because I think I can sell it to General Electric.
我可能跟他说过，我已经和通用电气谈好了合作
I might've told him I've got a deal with General
电气。
Electric.
而且
And
没想到两周后，他真弄出了一台能运行的乒乓球机。
I'll be damned if in two weeks he didn't have a working pong machine.
真厉害。
Wow.
不过这机器有些问题。
But it had some problems.
比如，球拍的入射角和反射角处理得不太对。
For example, it had on the paddles, angle incidence, angle reflection.
你懂的。
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
我看过一段说法，说是阿尔在看到你画的草图和描述之后，觉得如果我们把球拍分成八段，每一段离中心越远，反弹的角度就越大，这样玩起来会有趣得多。
I I read something that this was sort of Al's idea after what you sort of drew and described that that he thought, well, it it would be way more fun if we cut the paddle up into eight segments, and then each segment, depending on how far away from the middle it was, actually affected the sort of The angle that it that it bounced off of the paddle.
这挺有意思的，因为按我的记忆，这个点子是我想到的。
Now that's very interesting because the way I remember it, I came up with that idea.
我愿意把这功劳让给阿尔。
I'm willing to give it to to Al.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
那加快球速这个设计，是谁想出来的？
Well, who, who came up with speeding the ball up as the as play went on?
还是我，我觉得是我。
Again, I think I did.
但我也不打算争这个。
But but I'm not going to opine to it.
这又是个很棒的设计，因为第一，你不会觉得无聊，毕竟游戏不可能一直无限进行下去。
Which is another great mechanic because it means, number one, you don't really get bored of it because you can't just keep it going forever.
第二，如果你靠投币盈利，那游戏节奏加快后，玩家周转得更快，收入也就更多了。
And two, if you're collecting coin drop, then that's gonna speed up those games and you're getting more people flowing through.
没错。
Precisely.
所以。
So
好的。
okay.
在聊这个原型后来的发展之前，先说说公司名字吧，你们是怎么定下“雅达利”这个名字的？这个词原本是来自……
So before we get into what happened with this prototype, the name of the company, can you tell us how it became Atari, Which, of course, is a term from
那时候，所有事都靠邮政寄送。
In those days, everything was snail mail.
所以如果你想注册公司，通常的做法是准备五个备选名字，因为第一个名字可能被占用，而‘雅达利’其实是第三个。
And so if you wanted to incorporate, the standard way to do it was to put five company names in case the first one wasn't Atari was actually number three.
哦，天哪。
Oh, wow.
那第一个是Sisergy吗？
So was one Sisergy?
对，有一个叫Sisergy，是门多西诺一家蜡烛公司拥有的。
One was Sisergy, which was owned by a candle company in Mendocino.
所以这是跟加利福尼亚州那边打交道吗？
And so this is with, like, the state of California?
是的。
Yeah.
直到现在我都没想起来第二个名字是什么。
And I to this day, I don't remember what number two was.
结果第三个名字回来了，就是Atari。
But then number three came back, Atari.
这名字真棒，不过说起来，它开头是‘Will’？
What an amazing name, by the mean, starts with a Will
这挺好的。
Which is great.
说来有趣，我们刚把它拿回来的时候，其实不太确定喜不喜欢。
You know, it's funny when we, when we first got it back, we weren't sure we liked it.
Atari 就像 Go 里的 check-in 或者 check 一样。
And Atari is like the equivalent of check-in or check made in go.
没错。
Correct.
是的。
Yeah.
check 这个词用得挺合适。
Check is probably a good thing.
差不多吧。
Close enough.
所以你们一开始是不喜欢，还是拿不准？
So you didn't like it at first or you weren't sure?
不太确定。
Weren't sure.
对。
Yeah.
这其实挺有意思的，因为我真的相信
Which is really funny because, you know, I really believe
是的。
Yeah.
就像莎士比亚说的，名字管什么用。
That, like Shakespeare says, you know, arose by any other name.
对。
Yeah.
我多次给公司起过名字，一开始都觉得不太顺耳。
Over and over again, I've named a company that has not sounded right.
两周后，反而觉得这名字最好。
Two weeks in, it's the best name
世界上最好的。
in the world.
对。
Yep.
就像菲尔·奈特一开始特别讨厌把那个Nike的勾勾叫作“勾勾”，也讨厌这个勾勾本身，可现在它成了全球最有价值的品牌之一。
It's like how Phil Knight hated both calling the Nike swoosh the swoosh and the swoosh itself, and now it's the, you know, one of the top five most valuable brands in the world.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
而且。
Well, and
这跟乒乓球机的故事也是一回事。
this comes together with Pong.
对吧？
Right?
因为雅达利那个超棒的标志，如果你小时候没把它刻在记忆里，我们会在节目笔记里放链接，它真的特别棒，而且——
Because the amazing Atari logo, which we'll link to in the show notes if you don't, you know, have it etched into your memory as a as a child, is is wonderful and,
确实很棒。
know It's great.
把字母A和乒乓球拍的形状融合在一起，还有——
Forms the a and the and the Pong paddles and the
对。
Yeah.
这个标志你是怎么想出来的？
How did how did you come up with the logo?
它是怎么设计出来的？
How'd that come to be?
这是乔治·奥普曼设计的，他是个非常出色的平面设计师。
That was done by George Opperman, who was a brilliant, brilliant graphic designer.
我当时说，咱们得给公司弄个好点的标志。
And I said, we need a good bug for for the company.
他设计了十个，我就选了这一个。
He came up with 10, and I said, that one.
太厉害了。
Wow.
说实话，今天来看，这绝对是历史上最标志性的品牌之一。
And I mean, truly today, one of the most iconic brands ever created.
真的吗？
Really?
T恤、帽子，到处都是。
T shirts everywhere and hats.
你根本没法躲开，每周都能看到Atari的标志。
I mean, you you can't go a week without seeing the Atari seller.
它就出现在你生活的某个角落。
It's somewhere in your life.
它很漂亮，而且充满希望。
It's pretty, and it's it's optimistic.
这股势头是不断向上的，你知道的。
It's kind of, you know, upward upward driving this.
其实是《乓》的摇杆启发了这个设计。
And it and it was the the paddles from Pong that inspired it.
对吧？
Right?
不对。
No.
啊，不是这样的。
Oh, no.
这是事后篡改历史了。
That's revisionist history.
篡改历史。
Revisionist history.
明白了。
Okay.
这可是当事人亲口说的。
There we have it from the man himself.
各位听众朋友，
Okay, listeners.
现在我要给大家介绍一个我们特别期待的新伙伴——WorkOS。
Now is a great time to tell you about a new friend of the show we are very excited about, WorkOS.
没错。
Yes.
WorkOS 是一个专为企业打造的平台，OpenAI、Cursor、Perplexity、Vercel、Plaid 这些公司都在用，还有成百上千家优秀企业也在用。
WorkOS is the enterprise ready platform used by OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Vercel, Plaid, and literally hundreds of other winning companies.
那这些公司到底为什么选择 WorkOS 呢？
So what are all these companies using WorkOS for?
想象一下，你是一家快速成长的初创公司，
Imagine you're a fast growing startup.
产品已经找到市场定位，大企业客户也开始主动找上门。
You've got product market fit, and you're getting inbound interest from big enterprise customers.
这确实让人兴奋。
Very exciting.
但接着他们就会发来一份安全问卷。
But then they send you their security questionnaire.
对。
Yep.
那问卷长达47页，里面的要求简直像一堆缩写词堆在一起。
And it's, like, 47 pages long with requirements that kinda sound like alphabet soup.
你们支持SAML 2.0吗？
Do you support SAML two dot o?
能和你们的Okta系统对接吗？
Can you integrate with our Okta?
你们有SCIM配置吗？SCIM？
Do you have SCIM provisioning, SCIM?
那RBAC呢？R-B-A-C？
What about RBAC, r b a c?
你心里肯定在想，这些缩写到底是什么意思，更别说怎么实现了。
And you're thinking, I have no idea what these acronyms even mean, let alone how to implement them.
关键是这么回事。
So here's the thing.
这些不是锦上添花的东西。
These are not nice to haves.
这些是能直接让你谈不成生意的障碍。
These are deal blockers.
如果没有单点登录，没有SCIM，没有RBAC，没有审计日志，企业级交易根本就别想成，就这么简单。
Without SSO, without SCIM, without RBAC, without audit logs, you simply cannot close enterprise deals, period.
但这些功能一点都没让你们的核心产品变更好。
But none of these features make your core product better.
它们不会让你的啤酒更好喝——用我们在《Acquired》里最爱打的比方。
They don't make your beer taste better, to use our favorite analogy here on Acquired.
所以如果你在做设计工具，花六个月去开发SAML认证，并不会让你的设计工具变得更强大。
So if you're building like a design tool, spending six months building SAML authentication doesn't make your design tool more powerful.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。