场次：大卫·森拉（创始人播客）

明智点，拒绝它。

Wise up saying no to it.

但关键是，当你和他聊天时，你知道他听完了所有集。

But the point is like when you talk to him, you know he's listened to all the episodes.

他读了大约60本书。

He's read like 60 of the books.

他会给我发一张图片，但根本不会告诉我那本书的名字。

He'll text me a picture of like, he won't even tell me what the book.

我会想，我肯定读过这本书。

And I'm like I'm pretty sure I read that.

他会说：哦，是的，这是来自那一集的内容。

He's like oh yeah it's from this episode.

我就想：为什么？

It's like oh why?

如果他在一本书里找到了一个点子呢？

What if he finds one idea in a book.

一个想法来自播客，却能为他的公司带来10%的提升。

One idea in a podcast and it gives a 10% improvement on his company.

这是一个价值一千万美元的想法。

It's a $10,000,000 idea.

是的。

Yeah.

我们之前聊过这个，比如你有个孩子的晚餐。

Well we were talking about this earlier like this dinner that you have a child.

听起来查理就像一台纯粹由好奇心驱动的机器，但我们也知道，有很多人会定期举办晚餐，参与者常常是地理上分散的群体。

It sounds like the Charlie is just like a very curiosity driven machine but we know there's lots of folks that have regular dinners and have groups of people often geographically dispersed.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们为什么要这么做？

Why do they do it?

为什么这值得他们花时间、花钱、付出努力？

Why is it worth their time, their money, their effort?

因为他们得到了一个点子。

It's that they get one idea.

他们从这个点子中获得的杠杆效应是

The leverage that they can get on that is

查理的杠杆效应是惊人的。

Charlie astronomical.

他讲了个故事。

Tells a story.

他说：我靠读《巴伦周刊》五十年赚了四亿美元。

He's like, I made $400,000,000 from reading Barron's for fifty years.

你可能会说：你在说什么啊，查理？

And you're like what the what are you talking about Charlie?

你怎么量化这个？

How do you quantify that?

他确实做到了。

He does.

所以他这么说，我读过这个——这不是他在晚餐时说的，我听过他在公开场合说过。

So he goes I read this isn't something he said at dinner I've heard him say publicly.

他说，我五十多年来一直一直在读《巴伦周刊》。

He's like I read Barron's every all the time for fifty years.

我找到了一个可以付诸行动的想法。

I found one idea that I can act on.

我靠这笔交易赚了五千万美元。

I made $50,000,000 on that deal.

然后我把这五千万美元给了李·卢。

And then I took that $50,000,000 and I gave it to Lee Lou.

是那个吗？是的，没错。

Is that the Oh yeah, yeah.

我把这五千万美元给了李·卢，而李·卢把它变成了四亿美元——这就是我通过阅读《巴伦周刊》赚到四亿美元的方式。

I gave that $50,000,000 to Lee Lou and Lee Lou turned it into $400,000,000 That's how I made $400,000,000 from reading Barron's.

哇。

Wow.

而且听好了，我并不是说——这又是另一件事，我觉得每个人都觉得，这次不一样了，这是新的。

And listen, I'm not and this is another thing where I feel like everybody's like, oh this time is different, this is new.

人性从来都没有改变过。

It's like human nature has never changed.

它永远不会改变。

It will never change.

这次并不不同。

This time is not different.

如果你不研究那些在你之前的人的历史，你就只是无知，重复着过去的人早已看透的错误。

You're just experiencing difference is if you don't study the history of the people who came for you, you're just ignorant and making mistakes that people already saw in the past.

从历史中学习是一种杠杆。

Learning from history is a form of leverage.

他拥有数十亿年的人类集体历史。

He has billions and billions of years of collective human history.

这个人花了七十年，而像他这样的人成千上万。

This guy spent seventy years and there's thousands of them.

山姆·沃尔顿的书，有多少人在一个行业——零售业——里深耕了五十年，最终提炼出最重要的精髓。

And Sam Walton's book, how many people spent fifty years in one industry, in the retail industry and he distilled it down to the most important.

然后你一周内就能读完，接着可以听Acquire的节目。

And then you could read it in a week and then you could listen to Acquire's episodes.

你可以听David关于山姆的节目。

You can listen to David's episodes on Sam.

好吧，这不错。

Okay this is good.

除此之外。

In addition to that.

那么问题来了，你是掌握了山姆90%的智慧，还是只掌握了0.1%？

So the question is then do you have 90% of Sam's wisdom or do you have point 1% of Sam's wisdom after?

你根本不可能掌握90%。

There's no way you have 90%.

对。

Right.

因为时间久了，直觉就来了。

Because like the time, like the instincts.

我刚刚又重看了彼得·蒂尔在Y Combinator的演讲，他说竞争是失败者的游戏。

I was just re watching Peter Thiel's talk at Y Combinator where he says Competition is for Losers.

是的。

Oh yeah.

他说我们在硅谷做的一件事是

And he goes one thing that we do in Silicon I

我觉得这个很典型。

think this one's

经典。

a classic.

我们在硅谷做的一件事是：高估增长速度，低估持久性。

One thing we do in Silicon Valley is we overrate, overvalue growth rates and undervalue durability.

他说，这对科技公司来说没有道理，因为你们的利润绝大部分都来自二十年后。

And he's like, that doesn't make sense for a technology company because all your profits, the vast majority of profits are twenty years in the future.

所以如果你一味追求增长，而这种过度优化可能导致公司倒闭，你就永远无法获得那些收益。

And so if you're trying to optimize for growth and that over optimization can cause your company to go out of business, you're never going to collect that.

你要追求的是持久性，笨蛋。

You optimize for durability dummy.

对我来说，他这句话的意思就是：关注你的核心机制，对吧？

Like that's to me like mind your machine what he's saying right?

是的，你可能只能获得大约1%。

Yeah so you're gonna get you know 1% probably.

也许能到5%

Maybe five

但即便如此，这仍然是巨大的杠杆效应。

But that's still enormous leverage.

因为你花五个小时就读完了，而他花了五十年才实践出来，这是山姆·沃尔顿的智慧。

Because you read it in five hours and he took fifty years to implement And Sam Walton's wisdom.

关键在于你如何运用这个想法。

And it's what you do with the idea.

我知道你以前聊过这个，但当时是什么时刻让你决定要开始这个播客的？

I know you've talked about this before but like what was the moment where you're I'm gonna start this podcast.

这简直太疯狂了，你做的这件事。

Like it's crazy right what you do.

你每周都对着麦克风自己讲话。

You talk to a microphone yourself every week.

是的。

Yeah.

我的朋友，我不是说你疯了。

My friend Not that I think you're crazy.

你确实疯了，但毫无疑问，我更疯。

You are but No I definitely am nuts for sure.

我们可以聊聊，你们有没有读过杰夫·贝佐斯离职前的最后一封股东信？

And that's going to be like we can talk about, did you guys read Jeff Bezos' last shareholder letter before he Yeah.

他最精彩的话都在最后面。

The best lines he has is at the end.

他说，差异化就是生存。

He's like differentiation is survival.

所以他们思考这个问题有多难。

And so they think about that like how hard.

假设有人说：天啊，我太喜欢本和戴夫在做的事了。

Let's say somebody says, damn I love what Ben and Dave are doing.

我要做完全相同的事情。

I'm going to do the exact same thing.

他们可以立刻跳进来尝试这么做。

They can jump in and try to do that right.

但你有六年的经验。

But you have six years of experience.

你有六百个小时的实战经验。

You have six hundred hours out there.

你必须与我们形成反向定位。

You have to counter position against us.

或者针对不同的受众，没错。

Or address a different audience or Exactly.

这通过

Which by

顺便说一下，他们确实应该这么做。

the way they definitely should.

每次我遇到想不靠他们的人时，我总是说：你绝对应该这么做。

Every time I talk to somebody who wants to Without them I'm always like you absolutely should do this.

是的。

Yeah.

即使你在任何数字意义上的成功上都没有取得成就，你也会成功，因为你正在学习。

And you will even if you never succeed in terms of any like numerical success or like you will succeed because you are learning like.

所以，做个怪人、完全疯狂的人，我认为这让你更难被超越。

So being a nut job and completely crazy is I think makes you harder to compete with.

而且我们一会儿会扯得很远。

And it's also We're gonna go all over the map here.

但不可能不那样。

But it's impossible not to be that.

想想看，你们和我一样，沉浸在同样的信息中。

Like think about how seeped you guys are in the same information that I am.

它总是说，你是你五个朋友的总和之类的，对吧？

Where it always says, oh you're the sum of the first of your five friends or whatever, right?

其实，你也从你听的播客和读的书里获取信息。

Well it's like, it's also like what you get some of your podcasts you listen and the books you read.

所以发生的是

So what happens it's

五个朋友包括你那些拟社会关系。

five friends including your parasocial relationships.

所以就像你提到的，伙计，你只读了一本关于他的书，就会疯掉。

And so now what happens is like you mentioned, dude, you're like, you only read like one book about him, you'll go crazy.

所以当我对某个人特别感兴趣时，我会听比尔·盖利。

And so what happens is when I'm really interested in somebody, will, I listen to Bill Gurley.

再者，当别人比我聪明时，我就听他们的建议。

Again, just take advice when people are smarter than me.

比尔说，去收集所有你能找到的信息。

Bill said, go collect everybody, everything you can.

好的，不错。

Okay, good.

我会这么做的。

I'll do that.

这些想法其实都很简单。

This is very, these are simple ideas.

所以我会去找一些有趣的人。

And so I'll find somebody that's interesting.

我会读遍关于他们的所有资料。

I'll read everything about them.

因此，对于查理，我脑子里就像有个小小的查理·芒格在提醒我。

And so with Charlie, I have like a little Charlie Munger on my shoulder.

我心中有小小的史蒂夫·乔布斯、埃德温·兰德、大卫·奥格威、雅诗兰黛、可可·香奈儿，还有这些一直是我偶像的人，以及詹姆斯·戴森。

I have a little Steve Jobs, a little Edwin Land, a little David Ogivy, Estee Lauder, Coco Chanel, all these people that have been heroes of mine, James Dyson.

所以现在当我面对某种情况时，我会想：他们会怎么做？

And so now I'm presented with a situation like what would they do?

如果你阅读并深入吸收所有关于这些人的资料，你就会明白他们会如何应对。

And you have, if you read and spend and absorb everything that's out there about these people, you'll have an idea of how they would respond.

你们有没有读过肯·科琴达的书《创意选择》？

Did you guys ever read Ken Cocienda's book, Creative Selection?

没有。

Uh-uh.

啊，这真让人震惊。

About the Oh that's shocking.

Did

Did

你们参与过初代iPhone的人机界面设计吗？

you He guys worked on the original human interface for the iPhone?

所以他为还在那个阶段的设备做了键盘，没错。

So he made the keyboard for when it was still That's right.

那时候叫什么‘紫色计划’之类的。

Operation Purple or something.

键盘。

Keyboard.

他在iPhone问世之前就开发了Safari。

He made Safari before the iPhone.

他写了一本我读过三遍的绝佳著作，叫《创意选择》。

He has this excellent book that I've read like three times called Creative Selection.

我想副标题可能是‘苹果如何设计产品’或‘乔布斯的黄金时代’。

I think design How Apple Design Products and Golden Age of Steve Jobs might be the subtitle.

但他提到过，他向乔布斯做演示，对吧？

But he talked about that where he demoed to Steve, right?

你不会只是向他描述它。

And you're not gonna describe it to him.

你要亲自演示，然后亲手递给他。

You're gonna demo and you're gonna hand it to him.

所以他们会不断迭代，你们已经知道了，他们通过一系列演示来反复调整。

And so they iterate, you guys already know this, they iterate through a series of demos.

这一切都基于史蒂夫的品味。

And it's based on Steve's taste.

他不是说，‘我们来聊聊这个吧。’

Like he is not, oh let's talk about this.

而是说：‘不行，这么做，这么做，那样做。’

Like nope, do this, do this, that.

所以肯在书里有一句很精彩的话，他说给史蒂夫演示就像向德尔斐神谕提问，但德尔斐神谕只会用谜语回应，而史蒂夫却异常清晰明了。

And so Ken has a great line in the book where he's like demoing for Steve is like asking questions to the Oracle Delphi except the Oracle Delphi would like respond with a riddle and he's like no no Steve was unbelievably like crystal clear.

你完全能理解他。

You understood him.

在我研究过的所有人中，史蒂夫·乔布斯是我见过的思维最清晰的人。

Out of every single person I've ever studied Steve Jobs is by far the clearest thinker I have ever come across.

我就像是在那一刻得到了馈赠。

Like I just gifted at that.

查理就像神谕一样，清晰明了。

Charlie is like the Oracle and it's crystal clear.

你肯定会理解他想灌输到你脑海里的想法。

You are not like you are gonna understand what he's the idea he's trying to get into your brain for sure.

但我想说的是，我们研究的所有人，都不会贬低过去。

But my point being is like all of the people that we study, they don't denigrate the past.

史蒂夫·乔布斯，我如此痴迷于埃德温·兰德的原因是，我在一本传记中读到，当史蒂夫二十多岁时，埃德温·兰德已经七十多岁了。

Steve Jobs, the reason I'm so obsessed with Edwin Land, I read in a biography when Steve was like in his twenties, Edwin Land is in like seventies.

他去拜访埃德温·兰德，感觉就像朝圣一样。

He goes and meets Edwin Land and he goes, visiting Edwin Land was like visiting a shrine.

他说，埃德温·兰德是我的偶像，应该有更多人努力成为那样的人。

He's like, he is my hero, more people should try to be like that.

然后你们提到，杰夫·贝佐斯从萨姆那里借鉴了很多想法。

And then you guys made the point in that Jeff Bezos took a lot of ideas from Sam.

谁还从索尼借鉴了很多想法？

Who took a bunch of ideas from Sony too?

史蒂夫和杰夫。

Steve and Jeff.

所以你总会遇到这样的人，你会想，哦，我以为这是史蒂夫·乔布斯的点子。

So you always find these people where you're like, oh I thought this was a Steve Jobs idea.

不是的。

No.

这是盛田昭夫的点子。

It's an Akio Morita idea.

或者埃德温·兰德的点子。

Or an Edwin Land idea.

当我们过去观看史蒂夫的演讲时，他说：‘我们正在技术与人文艺术的交叉点上进行创新。’

When we used to watch the presentations that Steve would give, he's like oh we're building at the intersection of technology liberal arts.

他把这句话放到了屏幕上。

He put up on screen.

他完全照搬了这个音频概念。

He ripped that off wholesale audio.

埃德温·兰德说过 exactly 这个词。

Edwin Land said that exact word.

但关键在于，你永远找不到一个人，能在没有付出努力、研究前人、向他们学习并钦佩他们的情况下，达到专业巅峰。

But that's the point, you're never going find anybody gets to the top of the profession without doing the work, studying the people that came before them and learning from them and admiring them.

这是一个很好的个人转折点。

This is a good sort of personal pivot.

在我们共度的无数小时里，我从未问过你。

And it's like I've never asked you in all the hours we spent.

这太疯狂了。

This is crazy.

这是我们第一次见面。

This is the first time we've met in person.

是的。

Yeah.

我们花了好几个小时、好几个小时在Zoom上。

Like we spent hours and hours and hours on Zoom.

你是怎么决定要把你在这颗星球上的时间用在这上面的呢？

How did you like decide that this is what you were gonna do with your time on this planet?

那是什么促使你走到这一步的呢？

And like how did, what led to this?

好吧，你知道我们共同的朋友杰里米，就是那个创立Loop Tiny的人。

Okay, so I, you know our mutual friend Jeremy from forming Loop Tiny.

我刚跟他待了好几个小时，他来城里了。

I just spent like a bunch of hours with him, he was in town.

他用一句话就比我认识的任何人都更透彻地分析了我。

In one sentence, he psychoanalyzed me better than anybody else ever has.

他说，你成长过程中根本没有导师。

He goes, you didn't have any mentors growing up.

然后你就把这个推向了极端。

Then you took it to like this extreme.

他说得比我优雅多了。

And he said it much more eloquently than I am.

但他意思是，你从小就没有导师。

But he's like, you don't have any mentors.

所以在我看来，你的职业生涯就像一场病态地寻找能帮助你的导师的旅程。

So I view your career as like this psychopathic search for like mentors that can help you.

要知道，要回答你的问题，我不想在这里展开太多细节。

Know, so like to answer your questions like, I don't want to go into too much detail here.

但我这一生只有一个习惯，那就是阅读。

But like I've only had one habit my whole life and that was reading.

从我能记事起，我就一直在读书。

I was reading for as long as I can remember.

我妈妈几年前因乳腺癌去世了，我们家没什么钱，说来话长，我是家里第一个大学毕业、甚至第一个高中毕业的人。

My mom passed away from breast cancer a couple years ago and she we didn't have like a lot of money like Long story, I was the first person not only to graduate college, but high school in my family.

我来自一个不幸的家庭，双方家族都没有受过教育，充满各种不良习惯。

I came from a family that's unfortunate, both sides of the family, no education, a lot of just bad habits.

所以我非常认同查理·芒格的观点，因为他本质上是观察不良行为，然后努力反其道而行之。

So I identify a lot what Charlie Munger says because he essentially observes bad behavior and then tries to do the opposite.

让我给你举个例子。

Let So I me give you an example.

其实我刚在加拿大参加一个活动。

I was just up in Canada actually at an event.

安德鲁·威尔金森正在为一群企业家举办活动。

Andrew Wilkinson was hosting for a bunch of entrepreneurs.

我和来自《知识项目》和法恩曼街的谢恩·帕里什一起去了那里。

Me, Shane Parrish from the Knowledge Project and Farnham Street was up there.

还有来自《如何接管世界》的本·威尔逊。

Ben Wilson from How to Take Over the World.

我们当时一起参加了一个小组讨论。

And we were doing this panel together.

谢恩是主持人，我们事先并不知道会讨论什么内容。

And Shane's the moderator and we don't know what we're gonna talk about beforehand.

于是谢恩问了一个问题，大概是‘你从成长过程中学到的最重要的是什么？’之类的，对吧？

And so Shane asked the question, it's like, oh, what did you learn most from your upbringing or something like that, right?

我回答说，我学到的是不要碰可卡因，以及要高中毕业。

And I go, I learned not to do cocaine and to graduate high school.

就是这种类型的事情，对吧？

So that kind of thing, right?

所以有很多反面教材。

So there's just a bunch of anti models.

今天早上我走在旧金山的 Tenderloin 区时，想到了这一点，我觉得我应该带着女儿走一趟这条路，告诉她：‘看，这就是你为什么不能碰毒品的原因。’

I thought about this as I was walking through the Tenderloin this morning in San Francisco and I was like, I should do this walk with my daughter as the best, like hey, this is why you don't do drugs.

这正是观察不良行为并反其道而行之的完美例子。

This is the perfect example of like, you would you observe bad behavior and then you do the opposite.

所以简而言之，我一直以来都痴迷于阅读。

So long story short, I've always been obsessed with reading.

我妻子，也就是我妈妈做过的一件最好的事就是，即使我们没钱买书，她也会带我去书店，然后坐在那里。

Like one of the best things my wife my my mom ever did was even if we didn't have money for books, she would take me to the bookstore and just sit there.

书店太棒了，因为它们允许你随便看书。

Bookstores are so cool because they just let you read.

没人会过来对你说：嘿，你已经看了一个小时了。

No one comes here says, Hey, you've been reading for an hour.

你该走了。

You got to get out of here.

就是不停地读，读，读。

And just read and read and read.

有人引导你读书吗，还是你天生就对书感兴趣？

There anybody who introduced you to reading in books or you just There was just something about you?

听起来像是

Sounds like

他妈妈。

his mom.

是的，但她并不是个爱读书的人。

Yeah but no she wasn't a big reader.

她唯一读过的就是《圣经》。

The only thing she read was the Bible.

我小时候家里从来没有任何书。

There was no books in the house when I was younger ever.

你是怎么跟妈妈说‘妈妈，带我去书店吧’的？

Like how did you be like mom take me to the bookstore?

我无法回答这个问题。

I can't answer that.

我只能说，我妻子认识我十五年了，她常说，她喜欢我的家人，和他们相处融洽，但她总是问：这一切是怎么从那样的环境里出来的？

All I can say is like my wife knows has known me for fifteen years and her thing, what she says is she like likes my family and gets along with them but she goes how did that come from that?

听起来你有一个典型的‘逆境崛起’故事。

It sounds like you have a classic like you're the one who made it out story.

我们共同的朋友萨姆·亨克让我有了看待这个问题的方式。

Sam Henke, our mutual friend actually gave me the way to think about this.

这被称为你家族的创始人，对吧？

And it's called the founder of your family, right?

就是那个人，我以前管他们叫这个，名字不太好听，但叫代际转折点。

And it's the person that like, and I used to call them, and it was a terrible name, but generational inflection points.

因为你会在传记里读到，一代又一代都是不好的事情，直到有一个人说：到此为止。

Because you'd read this in the biography where you have like generation after generation of just not good things happening and then one person just says, it stops now.

洛克菲勒就是这样做的。

That's what Rockefeller did.

洛克菲勒，我总是想到萨姆·布罗姆顿，那个做席格姆的人。

Rockefeller, I'd always think of Sam Brompton, the guy that did Seagram's.

是的。

Oh yeah.

他在加拿大长大，父母损失了大量钱财。

And he's in Canada growing up, parents had lost so much money.

他们以为自己是犹太人，必须逃离俄罗斯的迫害。

They think they were Jewish and they had to like escape from persecution in Russia.

我想不起来他们是从哪儿来的。

I can't remember where they came from.

但他们去了加拿大，必须从头开始，那里没有暖气，冷得发抖。

But they go and they have to start all over and they're in Canada and like there's no heating and like they're freezing.

他有一种病态的驱动力去改变，而这种驱动力会伴随你一生。

He has this psychopathic drive to change but that stays with you forever.

所以，当他建立起一家庞大的公司，彻底改变了所有后代的命运时，他的女儿在书中讲述了一个故事：萨姆坐在豪宅里，靠着壁炉，却瑟瑟发抖，回想起当年穿着破旧衣服去上学的尴尬。

So like once, he builds this massive company and literally changes the trajectory of all of his descendants And his daughter's an adult and she tells a story in the book where Sam is sitting there in like a mansion next to a fire shivering thinking about how embarrassing it was to have to go to school with tighter clothing.

这个人绝不会再回到那种境地，他永远不会忘记。

That guy's never gonna go back to that and he never loses it.

所以我一直是个爱读书的人。

So I've just always been a reader.

这是我唯一从未间断过的习惯。

That's the only thing I've ever, like the only one unbroken habit I've always had.

于是我有了一个想法，我一辈子都痴迷于播客。

And so I just had this idea where like I was obsessed with podcasts forever.

在播客这个概念出现之前，我就已经痴迷于音频了。

I was obsessed with audio before there was such a thing as a podcast.

我小时候常听谈话电台，那时候根本没有点播内容。

I would listen to talk radio when I was a kid and at that time, it's not like there's no on demand anything.

你只能听谈话电台，尤其是政治类谈话电台。

You would listen to talk radio, politics talk radio.

这挺尴尬的。

It's embarrassing.

晚上有个女主持人，听众会写信给她，咨询感情生活方面的建议。

There was this woman that used to be on at night, people would write in like advice for love their love life.

我会听这个节目。

And I'd listen to that.

就是那种充满各种信息的感觉。

Just the the idea of like just all this information.

天哪。

Oh, man.

我以前常听阿特·贝尔的《海岸到海岸AM》。

I used to listen to Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.

你平时听这个吗？

Do you ever listen to this?

就是当其他所有广播节目都结束了，凌晨一点左右的AM广播就开始了，讲的都是外星人之类的内容。

Like, it's when all the other radio programming sort of expires and then you enter the like one in the morning AM radio stuff and it was like, you know, aliens Yep.

还有大量超自然现象的内容，比如，你知道的，骑士队比赛结束之后，我来自克利夫兰。

And like tons of But paranormal it was like, if you if you listen like, you know the the Cavs game ends, I'm from Cleveland.

所以比赛结束后你会听体育赛后分析，然后转到政治节目，如果你还是睡不着，那就进入外星人话题了，一连四个小时都是这类内容。

And so like then you listen to like the sports post game and then it goes into like the politics hour and if you still can't fall asleep then you're into like aliens and it's like four hours of that stuff.

你卧室里有收音机吗？

Do you have a radio in your bedroom?

是的。

Oh yeah.

我估计我爸妈可能会进来关掉，但他们通常会让我开着收音机入睡。

I'd be able to I don't I imagine my parents probably came and turned it off but like would leave it on while I fell asleep every night.

然后你还记得吗？AM广播电台后来开始通过互联网浏览器进行在线直播。

And then remember like I remember so you have to jump up from that then the AM radio stations would then start streaming to the into your browser Internet.

还不是按需播放的。

Still wasn't on demand.

所以如果你没在凌晨三点或十二点收听，就会错过。

So if you're not listening at 03:00 or twelve like you miss it.

然后当我看到播客时，这不就是马克·库班公司的业务吗？

And then once I saw podcast Wasn't this what Mark Cuban's company was?

不过我觉得他的公司好像是做体育比赛音频广播的。

His was like broadcasting audio for sports games though I think.

我其实不太清楚。

I don't actually know.

这有点

It's kind

像一个时代。

of like an era.

是 broadcast.com 对吧？

It's broadcast.com right?

是的。

Yeah.

而且它当时还和RealPlayer竞争，RealPlayer也不是按需播放的。

And it was competitive with RealPlayer which also wasn't on demand.

那只是直播广播。

That was just streamed radio.

不，第一个按需播放的，我第一次看到这个时，我觉得这太疯狂了。

No, the first on demand was, the first time I saw this, I was like, this is insane.

尤其是对于那些喜欢用查理的工具学习的人来说，比如直到今天，你都可以打开任何播客应用，输入你想了解的主题，然后听到某个人——他们通常花了数百小时来教你这些内容。

Like, especially for people that like, you know, learning machines using Charlie's, where it's like, I can go to even today, like they do, you can go to any podcast player, type in whatever you want to learn about, and then you can hear somebody that's usually spent hundreds of hours teaching you about this stuff.

现在你也能更容易地找到高质量的智力内容。

You can also find intellectual high quality content more easily now.

因为以前频道和播出时段有限，所有内容都必须面向最广泛的受众制作。

Because all content because there were a limited number of channels and a limited number of time slots, everything had to be produced for the lowest common denominator.

而现在，你可以主动选择自己的小众领域，找到该领域内最优质的内容。

And now you can opt into your niche and find the highest quality content in that niche.

是的

Yep.

而且在此之前，唯一的方式就是看书。

And like, the only way to do that before was books.

当时没有音频方式，也没有相关内容。

Like there wasn't an audio way to There wasn't content.

没有广泛可用的细分领域音频内容。

There wasn't niche audio content broadly available.

而且当时也没有

And there weren't

因为那里并没有数百万作者。

because there aren't like several million authors out there.

对。

Right.

但现在有数百万播客创作者。

But there's several million podcasters.

对。

Right.

但你刚才说得很好，我觉得你快说到重点了。

But you made a good I think you were getting to a good point.

这是因为当时的商业模式不支持这一点。

It's like because the business model didn't support that.

所以现在……

And so now

而且当时也没有分发渠道。

And there was no distribution.

是的，现在有了播客，你们知道吗，我肯定——虽然我从不看数据分析，但上次我看的时候，我的听众大约有50%在美国，其余遍布世界各地。

Yeah and now with podcasting it's like you guys, I'm sure I think like 50%, I don't ever look at analytics but I think last time I looked it was like 50% of my audience was in The United States but then everywhere.

所以早期做创始人的时候，我只是……我记得一切都变了，因为我搞不懂商业模式，于是就做联盟营销。

And so I was doing, the early days of founders I was just, I remember it all changed because I couldn't figure out the business model so you would do like affiliate.

我刚起步那会儿还记得

At that time I remember when I first started

是的，你尝试过很多种商业模式。

Yeah you went through a bunch of business models.

是的，我刚开始的时候，他们说：嘿，联系当时那几个为播客做广告的网络。

Yeah so when I first started they were like hey, contact like the few podcast advertising networks there were back then.

因为你们是2016年开的节目，对吧？

Because you guys started your show in 2016, right?

2015年。

'15.

2015年。

'15.

好吧，我是2016年开始的。

Okay, I started in 2016.

然后你联系我，说：可以为你的节目做广告。

And you contact me like, yeah, can do ads for your show.

你需要每集至少2.5万次下载。

You need like 25,000 downloads an episode.

当时我觉得我永远也达不到那个数字。

And at the time I'm like, I'll never get there.

显然，我们现在远远超过了那个水平。

Obviously we've skyrocketed past that.

但这根本不可能。

But that's impossible.

这就像一个篮球馆里的人数那么多。

It's like as many people as in a basketball arena.

哦，当你开始想象听众规模时，每期《Acquired》的听众相当于两个半NFL体育场的人数。

Oh, when you start visualizing the audience, it's like, two and a half NFL stadiums show up for every Acquired episode.

这简直太疯狂了。

That's an insane Yes.

但你

But do you

你们觉得呢，你们

guys think So do you

guys 只要想着这种压力能带来积极的推动作用。

guys Only think about in adding to the pressure in a good way.

这是一种很好的激励。

Like it's a good motivator.

我从不考虑这个。

I never think about it.

真的吗？

Really?

你知道我怎么想的吗？

You know what I think about it?

我的节目之所以这样安排，正是因为我常说你和我还有

How my show's set up is why I say you and I and

我喜欢你把听众当作是你在

I like how you treat the audience as like the person you're

只是一个人。

It's one person.

所以就像是一个人，我一直以来都是这样做的。

So like one, and I've done this forever.

有趣的是，我记得有一天我和一个朋友见面，我当时说，天啊，我想围绕我读很多书这个事实创办一个生意。

It's funny, I remember it's one of my friends that we met up one day and I was like, man, I think I'm gonna try to make a business around the fact that I read so much.

他后来给我打了电话，大概是半年前，或者一年前。

And he's like, And he called me like six months ago, a year ago.

他说，我真的不敢相信你做到了。

He's like, I can't believe you did that.

他说，我当初觉得这是我一直听过最蠢的想法。

He's like, I thought you were That was the dumbest thing I ever heard.

但当我开始的时候，我就在脑海中想象他的样子。

But I just picture him when I started.

哦，原来是这样。

It's like, oh.

这个节目的整个理念就是，如果你每周能和一个爱读书的朋友见面，他只是跟你分享他这周读到的内容，会怎么样？

The whole idea behind the show was like what if you got to meet up once a week with your friend that reads a lot and he just tells you the stuff he read that week.

像一些有趣的想法。

Like interesting ideas.

我

I

你有没有想过要相信自己的想法，试着说服他和你一起做播客，或者和别人合作？

was Do even just trust about your mind to like try and convince him to do the podcast with you or somebody else?

还是你总是这么强势？

Or do you always just like dominant?

我们并没有准备很多内容，但我们三个人聊过一件事，就是：我们为什么做现在这件事？是谁影响了你？

So one thing we don't have like a bunch of prepared stuff but one thing us three talked about is like hey why don't we talk about like who is your influence on why you do what you do?

我觉得有史以来最伟大的播客主持人是丹·卡林，来自《历史的荒野》。

And so I feel the greatest podcaster of all time is Dan Carlin from Harker History.

他就是我的榜样，我觉得这家伙做的事简直不可思议，对吧？

That's like my I think he's like, I can't believe what that guy does, right?

你和他是目前唯一成功的单人脱口秀播客主持人。

You and him are like the only successful monologue podcasters.

我觉得在这一媒介中，这是最难做的事情。

Like I think it's the hardest thing to do in this medium.

我无法想象，其他人要么请嘉宾

And I can't, I mean there's everyone else either has a guest on

要么有联合主持人。

or a cohost.

是的。

Yeah.

还有另一个曾经也是这样的家伙。

Well, there's another guy that was that.

所以我拿丹·卡林做例子，我当时对他着了迷。

So I took Dan Carl and I was like, I was obsessed with his.

我听完了他的所有集数。

I've listened to all his episodes.

你之前说过会听着听着就睡着了。

For like years you were talking about falling asleep.

我也这么做过。

I did that too.

但我听着丹·卡林入眠。

But I fell asleep to Dan Carlin.

所以我一遍又一遍地听。

So I'd over and over and over again.

到现在，我听他说话时，感觉就像：我爱你，真的。

To now where I listen to him, I'm like It's Have Love You in.

是的，我当时就想：别醒，别醒。

Yeah, was like, no, don't wake up.

这根本不是晚上，老兄。

This is not nighttime bro.

但还有一个，是我朋友推荐给我的。

But there was another one that a friend of mine put me on.

有个叫比尔·伯尔的喜剧演员。

So there's this comedian named Bill Burr.

他做周一早上的播客。

He does the Monday morning podcast.

他以前每周一都做。

He used to do it every Monday.

现在他好像是每周一和周四做，对吧？

Now he does I think Monday and Thursdays, right?

他是最早的播客创作者之一。

He is one of the first podcasters.

当他刚开始做播客时，他会打电话到一个号码进行录音，对吧？

When he was podcasting his first episodes, at the time he would do it, he would call into a number and record, right?

然后有一个服务能把你在手机上的录音转换成iPod上的内容。

And then there was a service that would transform that recording from your phone into an iPod.

一个MP3文件。

An MP3.

一个MP3，你可以

An MP3 that you could You

可以下载并放到你的

could download and put on your This

这之前根本没什么东西。

is before like anything.

所以这真是太

And so It's so

想想现在我们这里的录音设备，花了成千上万美元，真是不可思议，你知道吗，还有这些

wild how things have I mean, know, we're here now in this recording setup that we have here, know, with thousands of dollars of gear and like

是的。

Yeah.

我们刚开始的时候，我记得你可能没让我这么做，但我当时想，为什么我们不直接对着电脑说话，用QuickTime简单录一下呢。

We start I I remember when we first started, I don't think you let me do this, but I was like, why don't we just talk at the computer and like set up quick time.

老兄，当我回听我们最初的几期节目时，就像Pixar那样，我觉得我们当时真的只是对着电脑在说话。

Dude, when I listened back to our first few episodes like Pixar and I'm like we it sounds like we were just talking at the computer.

是的。

Yeah.

我们基本上就是这样。

We basically were.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是人们喜欢的，我有很多心理问题，从一开始就开始，一路走来。

That's that's when people like I have a lot of psychos that like, started at number one, I go all the through.

就像，哦，请别这样。

Was like, oh, like please don't.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你打算这么做的话，

If you're gonna do like,

往相反的方向去，这个

go in the opposite This

我想谈的一件事。

one the things I wanted to talk about.

以前是因为那样的话

Used to because that way at

至少当你看到第一集时，你已经是个粉丝了，但如果你从第一集开始看，你会觉得，这些人真烂。

least by the time you get to one you're you're a like, fan, but if start at one, you're like, oh, guys suck.

但几乎有一种特别的愉悦感，那就是当你听到一部你认为极其出色、完全成熟的作品时，尤其是当它已经播出很久了，你会想，哦，它一直都很完美无瑕。

But it's almost like there's great pleasure in hearing something that you think is excellent and fully baked and like, especially when it's been long running, you're like, Oh, this has always been immaculate and perfect.

然后你有机会去看一些早期的作品，你会想，哦，这真是，但你到底是谁

And then you get to go see some of the early work and you're like, Oh, it's But so who are you

在说谁？

talking about?

想看早期的查理。

Want the early Charlie.

我明白，即使那时他们还不知道，但那种魔力已经存在了。

I get the I can see where the magic was even though they didn't know yet.

它

The It's

但你读的书里也是同样的情况。

the same thing in the books that you're reading though.

比如山姆·沃尔顿，当你讲到他的房东坑了他，他却说：‘我可不是被吓倒的。’

Like Sam Walton when you tell a story where his landlord screws him over and he goes, I'm not whipped.

他找到了店铺。

Found the store.

我会再做一遍。

I'll do it again.

对吧？

Right?

而且事实是，是的，沃尔玛非常成功。

And it's like, yes Walmart is a huge success.

你们提到一个很棒的观点：你永远想不到，二十五年后，地上满是西瓜皮和驴粪的时候，这个家族会成为最富有的家族，对吧？

You guys made the point that, there was a great point where it's like you're never going to think twenty five years in the future when there's watermelons and donkey crap on the ground that this going be the richest family in the right?

以及最标准化的零售形式。

And the most standardized form of retail.

是的，你会看到，那个成为世界上最富有的人，他的家族现在也富裕起来了，或者类似的情况，但其实他也不完美，就像我一样。

Yeah, and so you see like oh that same guy that became the richest person in world that his now family has a rich family or whatever, it's like he's imperfect too just like I am.

所以，听早期的创业者或创始人的故事，唯一的好处就是你能看到他们的成长。

So that is the only benefit of listening to an early acquired or early founder is like, you see the improvement.

就像在书里，你能看到

Just like in the books you see the

成长。

improvement.

而且这也挺有趣的。

Well it's fun too.

我喜欢回听一些一年前的

I like going back and listening to some year old

节目。

episodes.

我能见证你的成长历程。

I get to see your journey.

我为你感到骄傲。

It's like I'm proud of you.

但我一直在思考，甚至在我们这次对话之前我就在想了。

But I've been thinking about it and I was thinking about ahead of our conversation here.

我以前经常说，

I used to say all the time,

人们总会说，哦，回去听听。

people like, oh, go back.

我会听他们的早期节目。

I listen to their early episodes.

我会说，别听。

I'm like, no, don't.

那太尴尬了。

It's so embarrassing.

实际上，我觉得我们总是希望被自己上一期节目所尴尬。

I actually think like we always wanna be embarrassed by our last episode.

我们一直不断地保持

We've just constantly kept like

提升

Raising

标准。

the bar.

每一集我们都努力再提高一点。

Every episode like we try and just notch it up.

因为我们总是想象着体育场里坐满了

Because we keep picturing the stadium and

我们之所以想到体育场，就是因为那种压力——我们必须比上一集做得更好。

we're That's like that's the like that's why I think about the stadium because I think about the like the pressure of like we gotta do better next time than we did this time.

而且那里坐的不只是西雅图的NFL球迷。

And it's not just filled with like you know Seattle's NFL fans.

而是成千上万最聪明的人，这触及了我内心深处的不安全感——我想赢得这些人的认可。

It's filled with like hundreds of thousands of the smartest people that and this gets to like the psyche like the deep insecurities that at least I have of like I want to impress those people.

我希望那些人觉得我很聪明。

I want those people to think I'm smart.

所以我必须产出真正值得他们花时间的东西。

And so I have to produce something unbelievably worthwhile of their time.

一旦我做不到，我就像是站在满是我想留下好印象的人的NFL体育场前。

And the minute that I don't, I'm like literally walking out in front of an NFL stadium full of people that I want to impress.

但我以前并没有这种压力。

And like, I didn't used to have that pressure.

但一旦我们找到了与那些我一直非常敬佩的人相匹配的内容市场定位。

But like once we found content market fit for acquired with like people that I've always thought highly of.

没错。

That's

对。

true.

就是那样

That there that

有几年我们有点疏远了。

were a couple years where we kinda drifted.

那时候没有那种必须不断提升标准的压力，没错。

There wasn't that pressure to keep amping the bar and then Right.

2017年左右。

2017 era.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你永远不会对自己的最新一期节目感到尴尬，我们现在制作的这一期是LVMH。

I think you're never gonna be embarrassed about your your latest episode at the time we're making this is LVMH.

你永远不会对那一期感到尴尬。

You're never gonna be embarrassed about that.

那期非常出色。

That was excellent.

而且，这并不意味着十年后你不能继续改进。

And like That was It doesn't mean you can't keep improving ten years from now.

但不是的。

But no.

我回看时觉得，是的，这确实是一个不错的集数。

Like I look back and I think like, yes, that's certainly an episode.

我不知道你怎么想，但我对此感到自豪。

I don't know how you feel, but that like I'm proud of.

但当我回看那时，我们根本没想到它会变得如此火爆。

But I look back like I at the time, like so we didn't know that was gonna be a super Totally popular

完全不可预测。

unpredictable.

这是我们的，这是我们的，因为我们还没对外公开过。

It's our it's our it's our because we haven't shared this publicly yet.

这一集的收听人数远超其他任何一集，遥遥领先。

It's our our number one episode by a huge margin.

这一集的收听人数比排名第二的亚马逊.com多了四万人。

40,000 more people have listened to that episode than the next highest which was amazon.com.

这太不可思议了。

That's incredible.

其实我本可以告诉你的，我当时想，大卫，没人会听亚马逊的，因为大家都已经知道这个故事了，结果我完全错了。

I could have told you actually, I was like David, no one's gonna listen to Amazon because everyone already knows this story, which was super wrong.

但我当时要么觉得没人会听这一集，要么觉得这会是我们最成功的那一集。

But I I either thought like no one will listen to this one or like this will be our most successful episode.

关于LVMH，即使在我们录完之后，我还在想，或者是在我们剪辑完之后，因为我们得删改很多内容。

With LVMH, even after we recorded it, I was like or after we edited it because we had to like edit a lot of stuff.

但我当时觉得，这

But I I was like This

很有趣。

is fun.

这说明我们当时有多无知。

This is how much we didn't know.

但这并不是我们有史以来最好的一集。

But it's not like our best ever.

但显然

But apparently

我觉得这可能是我最喜欢的一集。

I think it might be my favorite episode of yours.

我还听很多人说他们有多喜欢这一集。

And I heard from a ton of other people that how much they liked it.

嗯，谢谢。

It's Well, thank you.

这真的很……但至于

It's really But to the to

其实我们那集还有很多可以做得更好的地方。

the like there's a bunch of stuff that we could have done better in that episode.

一大堆呢。

Like a whole bunch.

我经常这么做，我会回头去听以前的节目，因为人们会说，你居然还听别的播客，这太奇怪了。

So I do this all the time where I'll go back and listen to old episodes because people are like, that's weird you listen to another podcast.

这就像，不，这只是一个工具。

It's like, no, this is a tool.

这才是进步的方式。

That's how you get better.

是新素材。

Is new footage.

不，我们一直在努力变得更好。

No, we've been even trying to get better.

我当时想，哦，这书我都两年没看了。

I was like, oh, haven't read that book in like two years.

我就听听我之前关于它的那一集。

I'll just listen to my episode on it.

这对我来说是个工具。

It's a tool for me.

这就是我知道它对别人也有用的原因，对吧？

That's how I know it's good for other people, right?

于是我心想，然后我就去听一下。

And so I was like, and then I'll listen to it.

我心想，哇，都忘了这回事了。

I'm like, wow, forgot that.

我需要把这个想法记在心里，等等。

I need to keep that idea in my mind, etcetera.

但我会听到自己说：哦，你这段话在两段里重复了。

But I'll hear myself like, oh, you said that in two paragraphs.

这部分本来可以合并成一段。

That could have been one paragraph.

删掉这部分。

Cut that part.

那部分没必要，所以是的，你能明白这种改进。

That doesn't And make so yeah, understand the improvement.

我的意思是，你的水平已经非常高了。

What I'm saying is your quality is already super high.

它可以不断提升和变得更好。

Like it can increase and get better.

别误会我的意思。

Don't get me wrong.

但你永远不会感到尴尬。

But you're never going to be embarrassed.

你只是会觉得，我或许还能再提升20%、30%，但以你现在的水平，这已经非常出色了。

You're just like, oh, I could probably do it 20%, 30% better, which is still excellent from the the the like the level you're at.

我们剪辑的方式是，我们的剪辑师先做第一遍处理，他水平超群，我们能有他真是太幸运了。

So the way that we edit is our editor takes the first pass and he's unbelievably good and we're so lucky to have him.

然后他给我们一个粗剪版本。

And then he sends us a rough cut.

我把它上传到Descript，接着一边听一边逐字逐句地阅读，努力删掉每一个不必要的句子。

I upload it to Descript and then we listen like and read while we're listening word for word, sentence for sentence, and try to cut every unnecessary sentence.

最后我们删掉了大约二十分钟的冗余内容。

And we end up pulling out twenty ish minutes of just fluff.

就是说，好吧。

It's just like, okay.

在那个地方我们可以更紧凑一些。

We could have been tighter in that point.

有没有办法在不重新录制的情况下让它更紧凑？

Is there a way to get tighter in it without rerecording it?

我认为这极大地提升了剧集的质量，因为当我们发布时，我们两人都觉得没有多余的句子。

And I think that has dramatically contributed to episode quality because by the time we ship it, neither of us feel that there are extraneous sentences.

好了，听众朋友们。

Alright, listeners.

现在是感谢我们非常兴奋的新朋友Sierra的好时机。

Now is a great time to thank a new friend of the show that we are very excited about, Sierra.

是的。

Yes.

我们非常高兴

We are thrilled

能与布雷特、克莱以及那边的整个团队合作。

to be working with Brett, Clay, and the entire team over there.

那我们为什么对Sierra感到兴奋呢？

So why are we excited about Sierra?

嗯，多年来在制作《Acquired》的过程中，我们学到的一点是，一家伟大的公司往往由其客户体验所定义。

Well, one of the things that we've learned from making Acquired over the years is that a great company is often defined by its customer experience.

是的。

Yep.

但做到优秀很难。

But being great is hard.

与客户沟通成本很高。

Talking to customers is expensive.

虽然网站和应用程序很不错，但它们有点慢且笨拙，还需要你的客户去学习它们。

And while websites and apps are great, they're also kinda slow and clunky, and your customers have to learn them.

而不是它们去了解你。

They don't learn you.

Sierra 改变了这一切。

Sierra changes all that.

他们构建了面向客户的AI代理，能够完成各种惊人的任务，比如找到理想的房屋、挑选电视节目、办理抵押贷款、配送沙发、退鞋、验证患者医疗身份、订购信用卡、阻止订阅者取消服务，等等。

They build customer facing AI agents that can do an insane range of things, like finding the perfect home or picking TV shows or originating mortgages, shipping a sofa, returning shoes, authenticating patients for health care, ordering credit cards, saving subscribers from canceling, and on and on.

自创立以来的短短两年内，他们已成为领先的对话式AI平台，拥有数百家杰出公司，如ADT、Clear、Minted、Ramp、Redfin、Rocket Mortgage、Safelight、SiriusXM和Wayfair，这些公司都信赖Sierra来提升客户体验。

In just two years since founding, they've become the leading conversational AI platform with hundreds of incredible companies like ADT, Clear, Minted, Ramp, Redfin, Rocket Mortgage, Safelight, SiriusXM, and Wayfair, all trusting Sierra for their customer experiences.

Sierra的设计足以满足财富500强企业的需求，包括医疗保健和金融服务等高度监管的行业，但它同样非常适合任何企业，包括你的公司。

Sierra was built to be powerful enough for Fortune 500 companies, including heavily regulated industries like health care and financial services, but it really works great for any business including yours.

使用Sierra，你只需构建一次AI代理，几周内即可在电话、聊天、短信、WhatsApp、电子邮件等所有渠道部署，支持30多种语言。

With Sierra, you can build your AI agent once and deploy it everywhere within weeks on the phone, in chat, SMS, WhatsApp, email, all in over 30 languages.

你甚至可以将其发布到ChatGPT上。

You can even publish it to ChatGPT.

凭借其独特且高度对齐成果的定价模式，你只需为Sierra带来的实际价值付费，即提升客户满意度和解决率、降低成本、增加收入。

And with their unique and insanely aligned outcomes based pricing model, you only pay for the value that Sierra delivers, increased customer satisfaction and resolution rates, lower costs, and higher revenue.

Sierra让全球优秀的企业能够每天每时每刻都展现出最佳状态。

Sierra enables the great companies of the world to show up at their best consistently every minute of every day.

事实上，我们非常看好Sierra，以至于大卫和我甚至投资了这家公司。

And in fact, we think so highly of Sierra that David and I even invested in the company.

要了解如何用AI打造更出色、更人性化的客户体验，请访问 sierra.ai/acquired，并告诉他们是本和大卫推荐的。

To find out how you can build better, more human customer experiences with AI, visit sierra.ai/acquired and tell them that Ben and David sent you.

所以我不确定我是不是像那样，你还是

So I don't know if I'm like that, like You're still

一个人在单打独斗。

a one man show.

对吧？

Right?

就像

Like

我一个人做所有事，没人碰任何东西。

I do every no one touches anything.

所以，所有事情都是。

So like Everything.