Slack + Salesforce 紧急播客，Not Boring的Packy McCormick主持

如果Salesforce现在要这样推动，比如，'最佳解决方案，而非IT部门最容易采购的'，这将对所有其他公司形成助力，我会用这个词。

And if Salesforce is now gonna be pushing this like, hey, best of breed, not easiest to buy for for your IT department, you know, this is gonna be a tailwind to all other, you know I I'll I'll use this term.

我并非贬义，指的是那些规模较小的软件和生产力公司。

I don't mean it pejoratively subscale software and productivity companies out there.

我的意思是规模较小，比如你不是微软或Salesforce这样的巨头。

I just mean subscale in that like you're not Microsoft or Salesforce.

我认为这对他们的市场进入和分销将非常有利。

This is this is just gonna be I think a great for their go to market and distribution.

是啊。

Yeah.

这相当于开发者领域的微软技术栈与开源生态之争。

The developer equivalent of this is the Microsoft stack versus the open source ecosystem.

而现在的情况就像是微软生产力套件与最佳组合生态的对决，Salesforce如今已成为这个生态中极具分量的核心。

And now you sort of have the Microsoft productivity stack versus the best of breed ecosystem of which Salesforce is now the very credible centerpiece.

在开源生态中，就像——这是十年前的事了——我用PHP作为脚本语言，这意味着我需要依赖各种不同的开源供应商来提供技术栈中的各个组件，现在可能是Python或Node.js之类的。

In the open source ecosystem, was like, well, and this is a decade ago, I use PHP as my scripting language, which means there's this whole variety of open source vendors that I use for all the different pieces in my stack or now Python or Node or whatever.

我认为在生产力领域的类比就是，没错，我们使用Slack。

And I think the way to think about that in the productivity world is like, well, yeah, we use Slack.

问题在于这是一个飞跃。

The question that this is the leap.

就像我们使用Slack和Salesforce来做类比，对吧。

It's like, we use Slack and Salesforce for like the analogy Right.

这个类比开始站不住脚了，好吧。

Started to fall down for Okay.

所以我这里已经准备好了。

So this is I have this queued up.

我需要引用一下这个。

I need to quote this.

新闻稿中的关键句子是这样的。

Here's the key line in the press release.

将Slack与Salesforce Customer 360结合，对客户和整个行业都将具有变革性意义。

Combining Slack with Salesforce Customer three sixty will be transformative for customers and the industry.

这一组合将为新型工作方式创建操作系统，独特地助力企业在全数字化世界中成长并取得成功。

The combination will create the operating system for the new way to work, uniquely enabling companies to grow and succeed in an all digital world.

然后你往下滚动，会看到Slack将深度集成到每个Salesforce云产品中，成为Salesforce客户360的新界面。

And then you scroll down and you see Slack will be deeply integrated into every Salesforce cloud as the new interface for Salesforce customer three sixty.

Slack将彻底改变人们的沟通方式，等等等等。

Slack will transform how people communicate, blah blah blah blah.

那么，成为Salesforce客户360的新界面究竟意味着什么？

So what does it mean to be this new interface to Salesforce customer three sixty?

这在实际操作中又具体意味着什么呢？

And, like like, what does that actually mean in practice?

这是否意味着Salesforce客户360将成为有史以来最优秀的Slack机器人，人们会像对待一个品牌那样与360互动？

Does that mean that this Salesforce customer three sixty is, like, the very best Slack bot to ever exist and people interact with three sixty, like They've a brand

从Slack机器人到Salesforce机器人。

Slack bot to Salesforce bot.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

天啊。

Man.

贝尼奥夫的想法。

Benioff thought.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我...我早前和朋友聊过这笔交易，他说收购Salesforce这家公司就像有人给你一个汽车底盘和一箱零件，然后你得在开车前自己想办法把它们组装起来。

I I I was talking to my friend about about this deal earlier, and he was like, getting getting Salesforce as a company is like somebody giving you, like, the chassis of a car and then a box of parts and then having to figure out how to put them all together before you drive it.

我上一家公司里，Salesforce的实施就是那种每个月都说'再有一个月就能完成'的事情。

The last company I was at, the Salesforce implementation was one of those things that every month was about a month from being done.

所以真的很难搞。

And so it's really hard.

也许这就是为什么Slack会逐渐成为整个Salesforce生态系统的入口。

And maybe that's why Slack over time becomes kind of the on ramp to the whole Salesforce ecosystem.

他们确实找到了整合的方法，因为Slack虽然一直在努力简化其入职流程，但他们在这方面确实遇到过困难。

And they do figure out a way to integrate it because Slack, for all the work that they've had to do to make their onboarding a little bit easier, know they have struggled there.

Slack的入职流程对组织来说确实比Salesforce之类的产品要容易得多。

It's certainly a much easier product to onboard to your organization than something like a Salesforce might be.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我读完这些后的理解是，Slack只是将他们的销售团队规模和实力提升了大约100倍，这就是我的理解。

I read all of that and I'm just like, that translates to me as Slack just upped their sales their their own sales force by, like, a 100 x in terms of headcount and power, and that's what that translates to for me.

是的。

Yeah.

在我们经常在节目中讨论的收购类别中，这是一个分销协议，对吧？

And in the sort of, like, classic acquisition category that we always do on episodes, I mean, this is a distribution deal, right?

产品开发速度不会改变。

Like, this is not Like, the product velocity is not gonna change.

Salesforce可能不会将Slack产品深度整合到现有的Salesforce中。

Salesforce is probably not gonna integrate the Slack product deeply into the existing Salesforce.

我是说，他们声称会整合，但可能性不大。

I mean, they say they are, but it's unlikely.

我觉得这更像是LinkedIn的模式，完全独立运营，只是借助Salesforce的分销渠道来打入更多企业市场。

I think it looks a lot more LinkedIn where it's a totally separate thing and they leverage the Salesforce distribution to be able to get it into more enterprises.

听起来没错。

That sounds right.

贝基，我觉得你多次强调过这个观点。

Know, Becky, I think you made the this point, well, several times.

Slack整个公司发展历程的增长故事就是：我们先让小型创新机构开始使用产品。

Slack's growth story over really its whole life as a company has been we get small innovative organizations to start using the product.

有时候是大型企业里的小型创新团队，但更多时候是初创公司。

And and sometimes that's small innovative teams within larger companies, but oftentimes it's startups.

我们让他们开始使用产品，然后随着这些公司成长，我们也会跟着成长。

We get them to start using the product and then it grows as those companies grow, we grow.

你指出过：虽然前期要投入大量销售和营销成本获取这些客户，但当客户成长后，他们留存下来并扩展使用规模，未来有望成为现金流怪兽。

And you made the point that like, yes, you're spending all the sales and marketing to acquire these customers early on, but then as those customers grow and they retain and they and they expand with you, like, that's gonna lead to a free cash flow monster hopefully in the future.

这套策略中缺失的是获取大型组织的可靠途径。

What's missing from that playbook is a credible way to go get the big organizations.

而这感觉像是解锁这个难题的关键。

And this feels like the unlock to that.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

This makes sense.

我心中唯一的问题是，如果你这样看：Slack是追踪初创公司发展的绝佳方式。

The only question in my mind then is if you look at it like great, you know, sales, Slack is a great way to, you know, index startups.

基本上，如果你想押注初创公司会成长并在未来有大量资金可支配——因为它们会成为现金流机器且需要大量优秀工具——那么Salesforce最终可能投资的方向是：为你提供从Slack无缝过渡到完整Salesforce CRM套件的迁移路径。

Basically, if you wanna make a bet that startups grow and then have lots of money to spend in the future because they're cash generating machines and need lots of great tools, like maybe the place that Salesforce actually ends up investing is a migration path from you've loved Slack and now we make it easy to onboard to the full, you know, Salesforce CRM suite.

只是... 可能是我的产品背景使然，但我实在看不出这种可能性。

I just don't you know, it's probably my product background, but like, I don't I don't see that.

我很难想象这种桥梁会是什么样子——比如你会突然觉得'哇太棒了'的那种过渡。

Like, it's hard for me to imagine, like, what that bridge looks like where you're like, oh, great.

你和你的团队一直在这个地方沟通，因此不知何故，你的Salesforce CRM实施现在会变得更简单。

You and your teams have all been communicating in this place, and therefore somehow your Salesforce CRM implementation will now be easier.

嗯，我认为这里的关键点，他们在新闻稿中也提到了，就是Slack Connect。

Well, I think the big thing here, and they mentioned it in the press release as well, is Slack Connect.

如果你认为Slack Connect将成为团队与公司所有不同合作伙伴或客户沟通的方式，那么这对于Salesforce集成来说就非常有意义——你不仅接入电子邮件并追踪邮件往来，还能直接接触到潜在客户。

And to the extent that you think that Slack Connect will be a way that teams can that a company can communicate with all of the different partners or clients that it has, then that makes a ton of sense for a Salesforce integration where you're not just plugging into email and tracking your email conversations, but you have your lead right there.

你点击创建Slack Connect频道，就能直接在Salesforce产品内展开对话。

You click start a start a Slack Connect channel, and then you're in conversation right within the Salesforce product.

就目前存在的整合而言，我认为这就是它可能发生的地方。

So to the extent that there is an integration, that's where I see that happening.

Slack刚刚公布了他们的数据，仅上个季度，Slack Connect终端就从38万增长到了52万。

Slack just reported their numbers and they grew, I think, from 380,000 Slack Connect endpoints to 520,000 Slack Connect endpoints in the last quarter alone.

因此这一直是业务的重点领域，或许回顾起来，是为Salesforce收购做准备，因为这确实让他们作为那种——我想本·汤普森称之为工作社交网络——更具吸引力。

And so this has been a huge area of focus for the business, maybe in retrospect, rearing up for a Salesforce acquisition because this certainly does make them a lot more attractive as that kind of, I think Ben Thompson called it the work social network.

但可以肯定的是，如果我是Salesforce，我认为这是产品最具吸引力的部分。

But certainly I think that's the most appealing piece of the product if I'm Salesforce.

是的。

Yeah.

我们再多聊聊Slack Connect吧。

Let's talk a little bit more about Slack Connect.

那么，为什么这对Slack如此具有战略意义？

What well, why is this so strategic for Slack?

我是说，这基本上是他们一直在强调的重点，虽然不是整个上市生涯，但大部分时间都是。

And the I mean, this has been the drum that they've been beating basically, not their whole life as a public company, but most of it.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

我认为这对Slack具有战略意义。

I think it's strategic for Slack.

当Stuart谈到这个产品及其定位时——我在文章里也写过这点，现在算是重复了。

So when Stuart's talked about the product and how to describe it, and I wrote about this in the piece, I'm repeating myself here.

但当他们谈论这个产品时，总是说它难以解释，但一旦试用就会明白。

But when they've talked about the product, they've always said it's hard to explain, but when you try it, you know it.

所以我认为Slack Connect的意义在于，如果你想与Stripe或亚马逊合作，而对方团队认为在共享频道沟通更便捷，那么结果如何？

So I think what Slack Connect represents is if you want to work with Stripe or if you want to work with Amazon and the Stripe or Amazon team thinks it's a lot easier for you to communicate in a shared channel, then guess what?

律师事务所、金融机构、贷款方等都会加入Slack并尝试使用。

Law firm, finance firm, lender, all of that, you're going to join Slack and then you're going to try it.

因为这个产品比Microsoft Teams更好，你会爱上它。

Because the product is better than a Microsoft Teams, you're going to love the product.

然后你可能会开始为Slack付费，进而可能在组织内推广开来。

And then maybe you'll start paying for Slack and then maybe it'll spread in your organization.

所以我认为最重要的是，这能让人们在购买前先试用Slack产品，因为你的创新合作伙伴希望你使用它。

So I think more than anything, it's a way for people to kind of try before you try before you buy the Slack product because your kind of innovative partner has told you that they want you to use that product.

实际上我在Breather工作时，高纬环球第一次使用Slack就是为了与我们建立沟通频道。

And it actually when I was at Breather before, Cushman and Wakefield, the first time that they used Slack was to set up a Slack channel to talk to us.

所以我认为这就是理念的实践。

So I think that's that in action.

你可以看到这种现象正在大规模发生，这样企业就能把所有对话集中在一个他们熟悉的界面里。

You can see that happening kind of writ large just so the companies can kind of keep that whole conversation in one place in one interface that they're familiar with.

那么组织间的共享频道在这方面起到什么作用呢？

And how does shared channels between organizations play into that?

我认为共享频道已经成为Slack Connect的一部分，这就是Slack Connect的本质。

So I think shared channels has kind of become a part of Slack Connect, and that's what Slack Connect is.

我认为共享频道只是最初的版本，而Slack Connect实际上是组织间的一系列共享频道。

I think shared channels was just the first kind of iteration, but what Slack Connect is, is a bunch of shared channels between organizations.

是的，这很合理。

Yeah, that makes sense.

就我们而言，Pioneer Square Labs对Slack有着非常独特的使用方式——我们有一个工作室频道，每个公司也都有独立频道，这在业务交接过渡期确实非常实用。

I mean, for what it's worth, and we have a super unique use for Slack at at Pioneer Square Labs because we have one for the studio and then we have one for every company and it help it actually is very meaningful and helpful in the transaction in the transition.

我们分拆公司时会保留共享频道，直到新公司开始对我们关闭这些频道，真正独立使用它们。

We spin out a company to be able to have shared channels until that company starts closing them off to us and then actually uses them on their own.

最初阶段，除了创始人外，我们就是整个团队。

At the very beginning, you know, we're the whole team except for the founders.

所以能搭建这样的桥梁真的很棒。

So it's it's great to have that, that bridge set up.

不过确实，我一直在想，在Slack上市前，它更像是个内部工具，而电子邮件才是对外的工具。

But yeah, I do wonder, you know, I it has always seemed like, in Slack's pre public lifetime, they were an internal tool and email was the external tool.

现在越来越感觉Slack也在尝试自然地成为你们的外部工具，这有点像Salesforce的类比——Salesforce本身是内部工具，但它却能追踪所有外部沟通和交易状态。

And it seems more and more like Slack is trying to also find natural ways to be your, your external tool, which is kind of an interesting analogy to Salesforce where Salesforce is a way Salesforce is an internal tool, but it measures all of your external communications and external deal status.

所以这里面肯定存在一些，你知道的，具体产品实现上比较灵活的空间。

And so there's gotta be some, you know, again, loosey goosey on the actual product implementation.

但你可以看出这在理念上与Slack的发展方向是一致的。

But you can see how that philosophically aligns with where Slack wants to go.

还有一条很棒的推文，我觉得他们现在某种程度上是在试图定义电子邮件，但这条2013年的Slack推文大意是说：人们说我们想让电子邮件消亡？

And there is this great tweet, and I think they are kind of trying to articulate email at this point, but this great Slack tweet from 2013 that was like, people saying, We want email dead?

如果我们真想干掉电子邮件，它早就凉透了。

If we wanted email dead, it'd be cold and in the ground.

所以，他们长期以来一直在纠结自己是否是电子邮件的终结者，但看起来事实就是如此

So like, yeah, they've been kind of dancing with whether or not they're an email killer for a very long time, but it seems like that's exactly

你电脑上最棒的功能之一就是使用了Wayback Machine，上面有Slack的市场定位和操作指南之类的。

you're One of the best parts of your PC had used the Wayback Machine and you had Slack's like marketing positioning and how to like, you know.

我的意思是，在我看来，这正是整个故事的关键所在——Slack既有优点也有缺点，过去一年他们做了一些非常棒的事情，也做了一些不那么好的事情。

I mean, I think this is the to me, this is the whole point of the story here, which is like there are pros and cons to Slack and like they've done some really good stuff for the past year and they've done some not so good stuff.

我认为他们做得不太好的一个方面就是定位问题，这到底算什么定位？

And I think one of the things they've done not so good on is like, the hell is this positioning?

比如，我能理解斯图尔特的那句话。

Like, I get Stuart's quote.

比如，我在Slack上也能理解这个。

Like, I get it on Slack too.

你得用过才知道。

You gotta use it to know.

但是，兄弟，别这样。

But, like, come on, man.

你们现在都算是个成立八年的公司了。

You're like an eight year old company at this point.

你们是一家上市公司。

You're a public company.

你们必须能够简明扼要地说明自己的业务。

You gotta be able to explain what you do succinctly.

而且即便作为上市公司，他们一直在反复调整。

And, like, even as a public company, they've been just iterating.

不仅仅是小修小补。

Not just like iterating.

他们已经多次大幅改变核心营销主张。

They've been massively changing their main marketing message several times.

这点我倒是要肯定他们。

Well, I give them credit for that.

他们从最初只在初创公司流行，到成为日常沟通的补充工具，再到疫情期间突然变成居家办公的必备品。

I mean, they they they became they went from a thing that was like trendy in startups to like useful in addition to all your other forms of communication to, my God, we're all working from home and now it's essential.

比如他们完全转向'虚拟办公室'的定位——虽然记不清具体措辞，但主张确实从'工作发生的地方'变成了'你的虚拟办公室'。

So like their full pivot to like where your virtual office, I can't remember exactly what the phrase is, but I think it transitioned from like where work happens to your virtual office.

在这方面他们确实很有魄力。

More power to them for that.

有道理。

Fair enough.

但当时有那么一刻我在想，我们要取代电子邮件。

But there was the moment in there where I was like, we're the email killer.

就像，好吧。

Was like, okay.

完全同意。

Totally.

不过这确实能引起人们的共鸣。

And that resonates with people though.

虽然这不能完全描述他们的业务，但像'我们终结电子邮件'这样简单的口号确实比'工作发生的地方'更能凝聚人心。

I think it doesn't describe fully what they do, but something as simple as we kill email is something that people can really rally behind versus we're where work happens.

人们根本不明白后者是什么意思。

People don't know what that means.

所以可能就像，斯图尔特是学哲学的，还精通逻辑学之类的。

So there is like maybe, Stuart was a philosophy major and logician and all of that.

因此也许过分强调字斟句酌，而忽略了与用户对产品期望的共鸣。

And so maybe there is too much of an emphasis on getting those words exactly right versus just resonating with what people wanted the product to do.

这也是典型的公关手法——描述一个问题，让人们自行认为你就是解决方案，并以他们自己的方式理解。

It is also classic sort of PR move to describe a problem and let people assume you are the answer to it and assume it in their own way.

因为实际上Salesforce就有个绝佳案例，我们还发过推文调侃他们那个老掉牙的'无需软件'口号。

Because, you know, in fact Salesforce has a great example of this and we tweeted a snarky comment about, their old no software, slogan.

哦对，没错。

Oh yeah, that's right.

COREY：人们当时受够了本地软件繁琐的配置流程。

COREY: People hated all the configuration that came with on premise software.

所以他们直接把标语改成'无需软件'，还画了个被划掉的软件图标。

So they just made their tagline no software, software with a thing crossed out of it.

这虽然没说明他们具体做什么，但传递了'没错，我也讨厌那样'的情绪。

And that doesn't say what they are, but it does say, oh yeah, I hate that.

太棒了，你们就是解决这个问题的答案。

Awesome, you guys are the answer to that.

你可以想象答案会是什么。

And you can imagine what the answer would be.

企业软件（尤其是Salesforce）有个有趣的现象：除非你是需要使用该软件的一线员工，否则你其实很少能真正接触到它。

And one of the funny things about enterprise software broadly and Salesforce specifically is unless you are an individual contributor whose job it is to use that software, you actually rarely get a glimpse of it.

它不像独立开发者制作的软件那样，会在官网上自豪地展示截图。

Like it's not like indie developed software that proudly shows screenshots on the website.

这有点像用户界面一直对你隐藏，直到你真正需要使用它的最后一刻才出现。

It's sort of like the UI is hidden from you until the very last moment when you actually have to use it.

而且在销售演示中，通常不会真正展示给你看，特别是如果你不是实际终端用户的话。

And often in sales demonstrations, it's not actually shown to you, especially if you're you're not the actual end user.

所以，我想我绕了这么大圈子其实是想问——你们有谁见过Salesforce的新Lightning界面吗？

So, I guess the this is a little bit of a roundabout way of me saying like, have have either of you ever seen Salesforce's new Lightning interface?

我倒是经常听人提起它。

Like I've heard it talked about a lot.

你们有谁见过它吗？

Have either of you seen it?

没有。

No.

我认为这与Slack的理念形成鲜明对比——每个听这个的人都知道Slack长什么样。

I think that's that is in stark contrast to Slack's sort of like philosophy of everybody listening to this knows what Slack looks like.

即使你有一段时间没在公司使用它，你也清楚那款软件的功能特性。

And even if you didn't use it at your company for a while, you were well aware of what the feature set of that software is.

而Salesforce是通过传统企业方式销售的终极企业软件代表。

And Salesforce is the ultimate embodiment of enterprise software sold through traditional enterprise ways.

我们不到万不得已绝不展示界面细节——通常都是售后阶段，就像我们要向你兜售一个梦想。

We don't need to show you pixels until we absolutely need to which is often post sale and like we're gonna sell you on a dream.

我不太确定刚才想表达什么重点，不过确实如此。

I don't exactly know what point I was making there but yeah.

这倒是实话。

It is true though.

我是说，我记得第一次真正使用Salesforce时（不是那个Lightning界面，不管它长什么样）

I mean I got I remember the first time that I actually used Salesforce not the lightning, interface whatever whatever that looks like.

我当时简直被它的糟糕程度震惊了

I was just like appalled at how bad it was.

是啊

Yeah.

但这根本不是软件

But it wasn't software.

所以购买它的人

And so whoever bought

这软件真漂亮

it pretty software.

购买它的人某种程度上认为它能解决问题

Whoever bought it sort of assumed that it would solve their problems.

好了，听众们

Alright, listeners.

现在该聊聊我们另一家最爱的公司Statsig了。

It's time to talk about another one of our favorite companies, Statsig.

自从上次我们介绍Statsig后，他们有了非常令人振奋的新进展。

Since you last heard from us about Statsig, they have a very exciting update.

他们完成了C轮融资，估值达到11亿美元。

They raised their series c, valuing them at $1,100,000,000.

嗯。

Yeah.

重大里程碑

Huge milestone.

恭喜团队

Congrats to the team.

时机很有意思，因为实验领域正变得非常火热

And timing is interesting because the experimentation space is, really heating up.

是的

Yes.

那么为什么投资者对STAT SEG的估值超过10亿美元？

So why do investors value STAT SEG at over $1,000,000,000?

因为实验已成为全球顶尖产品团队产品栈中的关键部分。

It's because experimentation has become a critical part of the product stack for the world's best product teams.

是的。

Yep.

这一趋势始于Web 2.0时代的公司，如Facebook、Netflix和Airbnb。

This trend started with web two dot o companies like Facebook and Netflix and Airbnb.

这些公司面临一个问题。

Those companies faced a problem.

如何在保持快速、去中心化的产品与工程文化的同时，将团队规模扩展到数千人？

How do you maintain a fast, decentralized product and engineering culture while also scaling up to thousands of employees?

实验系统是这个答案的重要组成部分。

Experimentation systems were a huge part of that answer.

这些系统让这些公司的每个人都能访问全球产品指标，从页面浏览量到观看时长再到性能表现。

These systems gave everyone at those companies access to a global set of product metrics, from page views to watch time to performance.

每当团队发布新功能或产品时，他们都能衡量该功能对这些指标的影响。

And then every time a team released a new feature or product, they could measure the impact of that feature on those metrics.

因此Facebook可以设定一个公司范围内的目标，比如增加应用内时长，并让各个团队自行探索实现方法。

So Facebook could set a company wide goal like increasing time in app and let individual teams go and figure out how to achieve it.

将这种做法扩展到数千名工程师和产品经理身上，就能实现指数级增长。

Multiply this across thousands of engineers and PMs, and boom, you get exponential growth.

难怪实验系统现在被视为关键基础设施。

It's no wonder that experimentation is now seen as essential infrastructure.

是的。

Yep.

如今最优秀的产品团队，如Notion、OpenAI、Rippling和Figma，同样高度依赖实验验证。

Today's best product teams like Notion, OpenAI, Rippling, and Figma are equally reliant on experimentation.

但他们不再自行构建这套系统，而是直接使用Statsig。

But instead of building it in house, they just use Statsig.

而且他们使用Statsig不仅限于实验验证。

And they don't just use Statsig for experimentation.

过去几年里，Statsig已经添加了快速产品团队所需的所有工具，比如功能开关、产品分析、会话回放等等。

Over the last few years, Statsig has added all the tools that fast product teams need, like feature flags, product analytics, session replays, and more.

所以如果你想帮助团队的工程师和产品经理找到更快的构建方式和更明智明的决策，请访问statsig.com/acquired，或点击节目说明中的链接。

So if you would like to help your team's engineers and PMs figure out how to build faster and make smarter decisions, go to statsig.com/acquired, or click the link in the show notes.

他们提供慷慨的免费套餐、5万美元的用的创业计划，

They have a super generous free tier, a $50,000 startup program, and affordable enterprise contracts for large companies.

只要告诉他们是大卫和姆和本推荐你去的。

Just tell them that Ben and David sent you.

我认为现在是个有趣的时机来讨论定价问题，你知道他们支付了277亿美元。

Well, I think this is a an interesting time to move into pricing and and sort of conversation around, you know, they they paid $27,700,000,000.

让我们从业务收入规模的角度来看这个数字。

Let's contextualize that in the size of the business in revenue.

显然他们目前还没有盈利。

And obviously they're not profitable.

帕基，你刚做完大量研究，可以说是全球对此最了解的人之一。

Packy, you're one of the best educated people in the world on this, having just done a bunch of research.

那么这个业务规模有多大？

So how big of a business is this?

然后对于这个业务来说，这个价格有多合理？

And then how reasonable of a price is it for that business?

是的，这个业务本季度刚发布的数字是2.35亿美元。

Yeah, so the business is, and they just again released their numbers for this quarter, so $235,000,000 this quarter.

假设明年，这是一家年化收入达10亿美元的公司，拥有86%的毛利率，刚刚实现自由现金流转正，并且本季度自由现金流从约1000万增长到了3600万。

Say next year, this is a billion dollar run rate company with 86% gross margins that just became free cash flow positive and grew from 10,000,000, I think, to 36,000,000 in free cash flow this quarter.

这是公司一个相当不错的进步，也是你前期投入大量资金获取客户后预期会发生的情况。

So that's a really nice improvement from the company and kind of the thing that you expect to happen when you spend a lot of money to acquire customers upfront.

随着时间的推移，他们留住了客户，更多现金最终转化为利润。

Then over time they retain and more of that cash drops to the bottom line.

所以这是个中等规模的企业，对吧？

So it's a moderately sized business, right?

相当于你支付了27.7倍未来十二个月的收入。

Like you're paying 27.7 times next twelve months revenue.

所以无论如何，这个企业的估值倍数绝对算不上便宜。

So it's not a not a cheap multiple on the business there by any stretch of the of the imagination.

现在什么算便宜什么算贵呢？

What what is cheaper expensive these days?

老实说，我都搞不清楚了。

Like, I don't even know.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以，你知道的，这并不便宜。

So it's, you know, it's not cheap.

现在没什么是便宜的。

Nothing's cheap right now.

你知道的，这要看情况。

You know, it depends.

我们拭目以待，看你是否认为它具有战略意义，以及他们能否通过Salesforce分销渠道推动它。

We'll see if if you think it is strategic and if they can just push it through the the Salesforce distribution channel.

但你实际上是在为这家企业支付未来12个月营收的27到28倍。

But you're essentially paying 27, 28 times next twelve months revenue for this business.

但这是一家年增长率仍保持在40%到50%的企业，拥有惊人的利润率，并且自由现金流正在以相当快的速度增长。

But a business that is still growing 40 to 50% year over year, a business that does have phenomenal margins and a business that is increasing its free cash flow at a pretty rapid rate here.

我不知道你有没有时间看过，你刚才说本季度营收是2.4亿还是2.35亿？

I don't know if you had time to look yet at the, you said it was $2.40 revenue for this quarter or $2.35

大概是这个数？

something like that?

2.35亿美元。

$235,000,000.

年增长率是否仍维持在40%？

Year over year growth rate is that still sustaining in 40%?

这可能是他们出售的原因。

So that might be why they sold.

上个季度同比增长是49%。

Last quarter it was 49% year over year.

本季度同比增长率为39%。

This quarter it was 39% year over year.

因此增长放缓相当显著。

So pretty dramatic growth slowdown.

他们本季度在Slack Connect方面宣布了不少好消息，但确实，这个总收入数字相当令人担忧。

So they had a bunch of good news to announce this quarter in Slack Connect but yeah, that's gotta be a pretty concerning top line number.

因为按理说不应该出现放缓，对吧？

If you're because there's no reason that should be slowing, right?

公司本应处于顺风期。

Like there should be tailwinds at the company's back.

他们应该仍在实现净扩张。

They should still be getting net expansion.

疫情初期这种扩张确实受到了冲击，因为企业裁员导致现有账户的月收入出现收缩。

Now in the beginning of the pandemic that expansion got hit because companies were laying people off and so that was leading to contraction in monthly revenue in their existing accounts.

但我认为最困难的阶段已经过去，这很有意思。

But I gotta think most of that's behind them, so interesting.

是的，付费客户同比增长140%，Slack端点和Connect端点同比增长240%。

Yeah, paid customers up 140% year over year, Slack endpoints, Connect endpoints up 240% year over year.

我在看他们是否谈到净扩张率，因为这显然是他们一直引以为豪的指标，但至少在新闻稿中没有提及。

I'm looking to see if they talk about net expansion because that's obviously been something that they've been pretty proud of that does not show up at least in the press release.

所以如果这个数字再次收缩——从疫情前的1930年1月到2025年1月，再到现在的2020年1月——同时收入略有放缓，那可能预示着你想在情况恶化前抽身。

And so maybe if that contracts again from 01/1930 before the pandemic to 01/2025 to now 01/2020 and revenue slows a little bit, then that begins to paint a picture that maybe you wanna get out before that happens.

是啊，因为对我来说这是关键问题：我们讨论了很多战略层面的收购理由，这些都说得通，但Slack才刚刚扭亏为盈啊。

Yeah, well, because that's the, To me that's a big question here which is like, okay we've talked about a lot of the strategic reasons to do this deal, all makes sense and whatnot but they did just flip into cash flow positive territory them being Slack.

他们当时仍在快速增长。

They were still growing rapidly.

在所有新兴云指数指标中他们仍保持第一梯队。

They're still top quartile in all these best emerging cloud index metrics.

为什么要卖掉？

Why sell?

除非他们觉得会继续被华尔街打压，不想再应付这种情况。

Know, like, I mean, unless they just felt like they were gonna continue to get hammered by Wall Street and didn't wanna deal with that.

比如

Like

这可是55%的溢价啊，David。

It's a 55% premium, David.

作为上市公司能拿到这么高的溢价相当罕见。

Like, that's pretty rare as a public company to get.

过去我们分析这类案例时说过，20%溢价基本就是基准线了。

In the past, we've looked at these and we've said like, well, 20% premium is basically baseline.

如果能达到30%甚至40%的溢价，那当然值得做这笔交易。

And if you can get up to 30% or 40% even like that, that's good, do the deal.

但如果你的股价从未达到发行价，上市18或16个月来基本持平甚至下跌，这时有人开出55%的溢价收购，很难拒绝。

But if your stock price hasn't ever hit your listing price, and you've been basically flat, if not down over the eighteen months or sixteen months since being a public company and someone offers you a 55% premium, it's hard not to take it.

我觉得确实是这样。

I mean, think that's true.

我想听听帕基的看法。

Well, I wanna hear Paki's thoughts.

不，我是说，我认为这是事实。

No, I mean, think that's true.

对我来说，不用每天在Slack上和微软竞争销售，我觉得这本身在未来一年左右就可能翻三倍。

I think for me not having to sit inside of Slack and sell against Microsoft every day, I think this could be, you know, triple on its own in the next year or so.

所以从这个角度来看很令人失望。

And so it's disappointing from that perspective.

但另一方面来说，是的，我们会把你接入Salesforce的生态系统，你将能够某种程度上匹配，至少接近微软的分销能力。

On the other side of the table to say, yeah, we're gonna plug you into Salesforce's Salesforce, and you're gonna be able to kind of match the distribution power, at least approach the distribution power of a Microsoft.

你将能够实现所有你希望达成的目标，将整个生态系统中顶尖的产品连接起来。

And you're gonna be able to do all of these things that you want to do for know, to to connect the full ecosystem of best in class products.

可以看出这确实是个颇具诱惑力的前景。

You can see that that's kind of a tempting thing to be able to do.

微软方面，尽管他们声称微软构不成多大威胁，但他们也曾因微软利用分销优势对其提起诉讼。

Microsoft, for the amount that they say that Microsoft isn't that big a threat, they also sued Microsoft for leveraging their distribution advantage against them.

所以它的威胁并不算太大。

And so it's not as big.

至少，日复一日地处理这件事非常烦人且痛苦。

At the very least, it's a big annoyance and a pain to deal with day in and day out.

所以也许结合55%的溢价来看，你会乐意接受这笔交易。

And so maybe if you combine that with the fact that it's a 55% premium, you're happy to take that deal.

是的。

Yeah.

不过我认为Zoom方面肯定存在某种程度的疲惫感才会这样做，因为Slack...

I think there has to be some element though of just fatigue on Zoom's part to do this because Slack?

抱歉。

Sorry.

Zoom在Slack方面并不感到疲惫。

Zoom is not fatigued on Slack's part to do this.

因为在我看来，他们刚刚才实现现金流转正。

Because again to me just like they're coming back to like they just flipped to cash flow positive.

所以并没有人拿枪指着他们的头，除了人们对他们感到愤怒之外，我并不认为他们会太在意这一点。

So like there's no gun to their head you know other than just people being mad at them and I wouldn't have necessarily thought that they would care too much about that.

另一方面，根据我们那期关于Slack的主节目内容，我也不认为再多赚几十亿对Stuart来说有多大意义。

On the other hand, I also don't think based on our episode, our main show episode that we did on on Slack, I don't also don't think that adding several more billions to his net worth matters that much to Stuart.

所以他可能想，好吧，这可能是最快实现使命的最佳机会。

So maybe he was like, well, this is gonna be the best chance to realize the mission the soonest.

但这仍然...确实如此。

But it's still it's one Yeah.

还是有点令人费解

Little perplexing to

你会想他们是否本可以聘请弗兰克·斯洛特曼来鼓舞士气、重整销售团队，去与微软竞争。

You wonder if they couldn't have gone out and just acquired Frank Slootman to come in and rally the troops and rally the sales force and go out and sell against Microsoft.

斯图尔特更偏向产品型而非销售型人才，也许这就是另一个原因。

Stuart's very much a product guy and not a And sales maybe that's the other answer here.

因此与其聘请一位更擅长企业级SaaS的新CEO，不如直接出售公司，以55%的溢价成功退出。

And so instead of bringing on a new CEO who's really more of an enterprise SaaS guy, you just sell the business and you know, you have the successful exit out of 55% premium and all of that.

因为我认为这又是另一个...

Because I think that's another another

斯图尔特可以继续做他自己，专注于产品开发，比如Slack Connect就是一个宏大的愿景和产品，从产品角度来看他们做得非常出色。

Stuart gets to continue being Stuart and being the product guy and you know, Slack connect like it's a big vision and it's a big product and they've done really well for the product standpoint from that.

而他不必去扮演弗兰克·斯鲁特曼的角色，本尼奥夫可以胜任那个位置。

And he doesn't have to go be Frank Slootman and Benioff can be Frank Slootman.

确实如此。

Exactly.

你不得不怀疑这是否意味着企业销售重新捆绑时代的开端。

You have to wonder if this is the beginning of the rebundling of enterprise sales.

回想过去15年，我们经历了'自带设备'的时代，而最近5到8年则处于另一个阶段。

Like we spent the last five to eight years in an era of well, if you think back like fifteen years ago, bring your own device happened.

在这5到8年间，任何有信用卡的人都能随意购买各种SaaS服务。

And then in the last five to eight years, was anybody with a credit card gets to buy any old SaaS service.

现在所有公司都普遍存在严重的订阅疲劳现象。

And there's subscription fatigue in a big way, at at any company.

就拿我们PSL来说，我们只是一家22人的小公司。

I mean, like we're a 22 person company at PSL.

我们有一张电子表格来管理所有人注册的所有订阅服务。

We have a spreadsheet to manage all the subscriptions that everybody signed up for.

然后每个月末都会出现骚扰行为。

And then there's harassing at the end of every month.

这是用哪张卡注册的？

Who signed up for this on what card?

我只能想象这对企业来说有多痛苦。

I can only imagine how painful that is at enterprises.

因此你也不难想象，如果Salesforce某种程度上在说，实际上我们有机会在这里复制微软的玩法。

And so you have to imagine too if Salesforce is kind of saying, actually we have the opportunity to run the Microsoft playbook here.

我们将继续看到更多整合，以缓解采购方面的痛点，本质上就是人们绕过采购流程的问题。

And we're going to continue to see more consolidation here to alleviate the pain of procurement around, well, basically people going around procurement.

嗯，我觉得...我也不确定。

And I think, yeah, I don't know.

我认为这是个有趣的观点。

I think that's an interesting point.

我无法想象，当习惯于购买微软、甲骨文甚至Salesforce等老牌产品的公司逐渐退出历史舞台时，新一代初创公司会纷纷表示‘我们真的很想从Salesforce或微软那里采购’。

And I can't imagine that as the companies that are used to buying Microsoft and Oracle and even Salesforce and all those kind of age out, that the new wave of startups is going be like, you know, we'd really love to buy from is Salesforce or we'd really love to buy from Microsoft.

因此，我们可能正处于一个过渡期，这个过渡期大约会持续五到十年。

And so maybe there's this transition period that we're in, which is like a five to ten year thing.

但我认为最终的解决方案会是类似企业信用卡平台这样的公司出现，它们试图在一个地方展示你的支出，并告诉你哪里可以节省。

But I think the way that that ends up getting solved is their company is like ramp on the corporate card side that is trying to show you your spend in one place and show you where you can save.

所以无论是企业信用卡，还是某种软件解决方案，它们都将介入并取代那些电子表格。

And so whether it's a corporate card, whether it's a software solution that kind of comes in and kind of replaces the spreadsheet there.

我认为除了企业之外还会有其他解决方案，成长中的科技公司正占据越来越大的市场份额。

I think there will be other solutions than companies, growing tech companies are becoming a bigger and bigger part of the market.

我无法想象他们会更喜欢与Salesforce合作，而不是厌恶管理所有这些

And I can't imagine that they enjoy working with Salesforce more than they hate managing all And of those

Paki，你也提出了一个很好的观点。

Paki, you raise a great point too.

我认为我提出2021年的集成点会与2005年相同的观点显得有些幼稚。

Think it's sort of novice of me to suggest that the point of integration in 2021 would be the same as the point of integration in 2005.

重新打包的方式不会与当初解包的方式相同。

Like the rebundling won't happen in the same way that it got unbundled.

重新打包会发生在信用卡层面，或者说，不会再有人像微软那样去构建微软式的捆绑包了。

The rebundling will be at the credit card level or, you know, you know, not someone's not gonna go build the Microsoft bundle the way Microsoft built the Microsoft bundle.

我认为这个观点是正确的。

I think that's right.

没错。

Yep.

所以这让事情变得有趣。

So it makes this fun.

确实如此。

Indeed.

确实如此。

Indeed.

说到预测未来和在这个格局中的战略决策，我认为我们不能不讨论你在文章中关于Slack作为独立公司的熊市观点的精彩论述。

Well, speaking of prognosticating about the future and strategic decisions in the landscape, I don't think we can leave this section without talking about what I think you wrote about really eloquently in your piece about your take on the bear case for Slack as an independent company.

这实际上完全符合我们Emergence的朋友Jake Saper即将发布的博客观点，他把这视为一个投资主题的翻转。

And this actually totally jives with our friend Jake Saper over at Emergence is about to publish a blog post about this like the the flip of this being an investment theme.

他称之为深度协作，指的是现在市面上所有其他工作流应用，无论是Figma、Notion还是其他，实际上都内置了聊天和协作功能。

He calls it deep collaboration, but like that there are all these other workflow apps out there now whether it's Figma or Notion or whatever that actually have chat and collaboration built into them.

所以你不需要专门切换到Slack来协作编辑Figma文档，或者在使用Ironclad处理法律文件时也是如此。

So you don't need to go over to Slack in order to collaborate on a Figma document or if you're working on a legal document with Ironclad or something like that.

让我们深入探讨这一点，我认为这是个非常敏锐的观察。

Let's talk about that because I think this is this is a really astute observation.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

That's fascinating.

这些观点很多来自Kevin Kwok，他在这些事务上的洞察力远胜于我。

And a lot of this comes from Kevin Kwok who's more more astute than than I am on on these things.

但关键在于，他在关于Slack的精彩文章中提出的观点是：当企业每个业务环节都配备了像Figma这样内置协作功能的软件时，Slack就会沦为一种备用工具——只在协作工具出问题时应急使用。

But the point being that, you know, his point that he makes in the great piece that he wrote on Slack is that Slack is really once every piece of what a business does has a Figma like software that has collaboration embedded, then Slack becomes this kind of backup, use it for emergencies, something has gone wrong in the collaboration tool.

那我们转到Slack上聊吧。

So let's go over to Slack and chat about it.

或者说它有点像现在的电子邮件，用来发布公司公告或处理更广泛的事务，但真正要完成工作时，确实如你所说。

Or it kind of becomes what email is today, which is like we make a company announcement here or we do things that are more broad, but when we actually want to get work done, then you're right.

我们会进入Figma一起设计，或者用Pitch协作制作演示文稿。

We go into Figma or we go into Pitch to do our presentations together in there.

所以有各种各样的工具选择。

So there's all these different things.

我觉得这确实有点让人困惑。

I think that does get a little bit confusing.

他的解决方案——我认为目前会是个相当热门的目标——是类似Discord这样的工具，它是一个存在于所有其他协作工具之上的聊天工具，还能进行视频聊天。

His solution and one I think is going to be a pretty hot target right now is something like a Discord that is a chat tool that exists on top of all of the other kind of collaboration tools and you can be video chatting.

我昨天写了关于远程工作的文章，以及那些专为远程工作打造的各种居家办公产品。

I wrote about remote work and kind of all the work from home products that are being built natively for remote work yesterday.

仅通过几天的调研，我就发现了五个不错的选项，它们都试图打造一种类似总部的体验——既在拟物化设计上让人感觉像总部，又能根据你靠近或远离他人时听到不同的噪音级别，或者直接在屏幕上调出你正在编写的代码，周围还会显示小视频圆圈。

And there's five good options that I saw just in a couple days of research that are trying to really kind of build something that feels like an HQ, both in terms of like skeuomorphically it feels and looks like an HQ, but then there's different noise levels that you hear when you approach people or when you go further away from people or you pull up the code that you're working on right there on the screen and you'll have your little video circles around that.

这个领域正在开发一些非常有趣的软件。

So there's some really interesting software being built in the space.

所以对我来说，这就是最基础的情况，对吧？

And so maybe that's, I mean to me that's the bare case, right?

如果你对Slack的看涨预期（我就是这样认为的）是它能收购所有年轻快速成长的公司，成为它们所有业务的核心枢纽并共同成长，那么公司面临的最大威胁就是会出现更好、更新潮的软件，截断底层市场，抢走所有新兴公司，甚至可能向上侵蚀现有企业的份额。

If your bull case on Slack, which mine is, is that they can acquire all the young fast growing companies and become this kind of like central hub for everything that they do and grow with them, then the biggest threat to the company is that there's an even better kind of newer wave of software that comes in and cuts off that bottom and takes all of the younger companies that are coming in and maybe even starts going up and stealing the stripes and the other companies there.

所以在我看来，最大的风险就是出现一款人们直接交互的协作软件。

So to me, that's the big risk is that there's one collaboration software that people interact with directly.

其次，新一代的Slack将更适应这个我们都需要以协作软件为核心枢纽的世界，而不仅仅是在办公室里互相聊天的工具。

And then two, the next generation of Slacks that are built more for this world where we all have to be collaborating with whatever that software is as the central hub versus as something that we chat with each other on in the office.

我非常赞同这个观点。

I love that point.

我认为非常敏锐的一点是：Slack最害怕的噩梦就是聊天功能在各个应用内部变得完善。

I think it's so astute that the worst nightmare for Slack is that chat gets good in apps.

然后突然之间人们会说'哦对了，还有Slack'。

And suddenly I'm like, oh, yeah, Slack.

我偶尔会进去随机发个GIF图。

I pop in there to drop a GIF in random.

生日祝福仍然会是个主要使用场景。

Happy birthdays are still gonna be a big use case.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

不过确实，工作停止的程度，我是说，工作发生的地方挺有意思的。

But yeah, to the extent that work stops I mean, it's funny where work happens.

如果工作变得分散化，发生在各个应用里而非集中通讯枢纽中，他们可就麻烦大了。

To the extent that work gets federated and happens in apps rather than in the central communication nexus, they're in big trouble.

我很喜欢你关于开放Slack API的想法，不是那种在Slack里建机器人，而是把Slack嵌入到你的应用里，这样就不用自己再造一个Slack了。

And I love your idea of, open up the Slack API, not in a way that's like build bots within Slack, but in a way that's like embed Slack in your apps so that you don't have to roll your own Slack.

因为每次有人说'我们来实现个聊天功能吧'，那工作量简直要命。

Because it's a crap ton of work anytime anybody's like, well, let's implement chat.

比如，Zoom就是典型的例子A。

Like, see Zoom as example A.

它的聊天功能糟糕透了。

Its chat is awful.

有时候我随便粘贴个链接，它居然不显示超链接。

Like sometimes randomly, I'll paste a link and it won't hyperlink it.

我是说，这可是家极其成功的公司，但它的聊天功能烂到每次我想私发消息给一个人，结果都会误发给所有人。

Like, I mean, this is a massively successful company with just a chat where every time I try and send a message to one person, I accidentally send it to everyone.

我认为Slack有一个巨大的防御性机会，可以成为你在应用中实现聊天功能的方式。

And I think that like, there's huge defensive opportunity for Slack to be the way that you implement chat in your app.

而且他们在此之前就已经开始着手这方面了。

And they just started hitting at it too before this.

他上了Harry Sebings的《二十分钟VC》节目，谈到要成为不同应用之间的连接纽带，以及Slack下一阶段整合的真正形态。

He went on the twenty minute VC with Harry Sebings and talked about kind of being this connective tissue between different apps and really what the next level of integration looks like for Slack.

所以这本来是实现这个目标的绝佳方式，想想看，能够直接将Slack嵌入到不同应用中。

So that would have been an amazing way to do this, think, to be able to just embed Slack in different apps.

正如你所说，他们所做的一切看似非常简单、让聊天显得极其简单的事情，实际上都非常非常困难。

Because to your point, everything that they've done that seems really simple and that makes chat seem really simple is really, really hard.

我附上了决策树的全图，上面列出了决定是否在晚上8点05分给你发送Slack消息通知所需的所有判断流程。

I've included the graph of all of the decision tree that needs to happen to decide whether at 08:05PM to send you a notification if I Slack you.

这确实非常复杂。

And it's really complicated.

所以所有这些功能都可以作为服务通过其他产品提供，这在单独公司时期会很有趣，或许在合并后的公司里仍然会很有趣。

And so there's all that stuff that you can just offer as a service through other products that would have been interesting and maybe will still be interesting in the combined company.

如果你比我更了解这个产品——因为我只用过一点点——我们能否深入探讨一下Discord，谈谈它有何不同以及为何可能更适合这种，我不知道该怎么说可能用词不当，但嵌入式用例或与实际应用共存的情况。

If either you are more knowledgeable than me because I've only used the product a little bit, can we double click on Discord a bit and talk about how that's different and why it's maybe more suited to this, I don't know, wanna get probably the wrong word but embedded type use case or like coexisting with the actual apps.

让我先发表一下我的刻薄评论：如果你觉得Slack难以掌握，那等你看到Discord就知道了。

Let me first make my snarky comment, which was if you thought Slack was unintuitive to learn, wait till you see Discord.

这是第一款真正让我在使用时感到自己老了的软件。

It's the first piece of software that's really made me feel old using it.

而我的第二点看法，你知道，被视为优点的另一面是它的可定制性要高得多。

And my my second, you know, the the the con the other side of that, which is viewed as a positive, is it's much more customizable.

没那么夸张。

Not like crazy.

我是说，它不像MySpace那样开放HTML画布，但你知道，就像安卓之于苹果iPhone，它在聊天界面上允许更多的扩展性。

I mean, it's not MySpace with an open HTML canvas, but it's, you know, it's the Android to Apple's iPhone where it's it allows far more extensibility in the chat canvas.

所以问题是他们的目标市场完全不同，显然是游戏影响者社区，而非企业用户。

So, the question is so their go to markets have been entirely different, obviously gaming influencer communities, rather than the enterprise.

事实上，Slack让产品很难用于非企业用途，对这些需求基本视而不见。

And in fact, Slack has made it sort of difficult to use the product for any of that, anything that's not the enterprise and have sort of turned a blind eye to

咳咳，我们收购的Slack。

Cough our acquired Slack.

是啊。

Yeah.

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

我已经跟那边很多人反复强调过这一点了。

I've been beating the drum with so many people there.

我一直在说，请给我们一些基本功能。

I've been like, please give us some basic features.

我们正在推广你们的产品。

We are evangelizing your product.

是啊。

Yeah.

长期使用Slack的老用户都知道，我对此特别不满的原因是我们把它当作社区产品使用时，它根本不尊重我们想要的管理权限。

And my favorite, longtime acquired Slack members will know that my particular B in my bond around that is because we are using it as a community product it doesn't, like, respect how admin y we wanna be.

结果它会直接给所有用户发邮件通知，说什么'你们快达到X限制'了。

And so it will email, like, all users and tell them, like, oh, you're hitting x limit.

然后你就懵了——什么情况？

And you're like, what?

结果有成千上万的人收到这种邮件，里面还附带数据分析报告。

There's, like, thousands of people getting this email and it's reporting analytics.

比如'本月/本周有这么多活跃用户'之类的。

Like, oh, there's this many of you are active this month or this week.

然后你就会想，为什么要和这么多无关的人分享这些信息？所以没错。

And you're like, why are you sharing that with all these random so yes.

不。

No.

我们不会每年支付300万美元或其他什么费用，就为了我们收购的Slack里的6000人。

We're not gonna pay you $3,000,000 a year or whatever we have to for our 6,000 people in the acquired Slack.

但这确实是个很好的观点，对吧？

But that is such a good point, right?

不仅仅是产品本身的问题。

It's not just the product.

还包括他们的收费方式和商业模式——Discord让用户为升级功能付费，比如更好的视频质量或其他超级用户可能想要的功能，但不会惩罚其他普通用户。

It's also the way that they the way that they charge in the business model where Discord makes people pay for upgraded features like, you know, better video or different, like, things that maybe super users might want, but it doesn't penalize everybody else.

所以我不知道如果你是Slack该怎么处理这个问题，又该如何向企业用户解释他们获得的其他功能...这比单纯模仿Discord要复杂得多。

And so I don't know how you do that if you're Slack and then how you communicate that to the enterprises that people are getting all these other So it's more complicated than just do what Discord does.

但从商业模式的角度来看，Discord确实在这些用例上的处理方式要好得多。

But certainly, a business model perspective, Discord handles those use cases a heck of a lot better.

好多了。

Much better.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这里面有营销层面的考量，以及理想客户画像的差异——Slack面向企业，而Discord则面向社区。

I mean, so so there's the marketing side of it and, like, the ideal customer profile where, you know, Slack targets the enterprise and Discord targets communities.

但认为这两款产品相似或相同，仅仅因为销售对象不同，我认为这种观点过于简单化了。

But it's, I think, an overly simplistic view of the two products to call them similar or or the same other than who they're sold to.

因为当你深入思考它们各自的深层功能时，会发现它们截然不同。

Because I think when you think about all the deeper features of each, they're way different.

比如在两个企业间建立共享频道的能力，或是创建一个能与时间追踪工具交互的Slack机器人。

So like the ability to have a shared channel between two enterprises or the ability to create a Slack bot that communicates with a time tracking tool.

这些功能从来就不是Discord的开发方向。

Like those are not the types of things that Discord has ever built toward.

我觉得这就像经典的软件行业现象（尤其是企业软件），所有软件都像冰山——90%真正艰难的工作都隐藏在水面之下。

And I think it's like the classic, you know, enterprise software especially, but all software is that iceberg where 90% of the the real hard work is below the surface.

我认为Slack和Discord之间只有浮出水面的那10%功能让人感觉它们是同类产品。

And I think it's only that 10% above the surface between Slack and Discord where it actually feels like the same thing.

我觉得你说得对。

I think that's right.

但我确实认为下一代公司，比如Huddl，将会融合Discord的最佳特性与Slack的所有底层功能。

But I do think that this next generation, companies like Huddl are going to come out and kind of combine the best of Discord with all of the below the surface level kind of features of Slack.

看看这些产品最终会发展成什么样会很有趣，但我认为它们有一定潜力。

Will be interesting to see where those turn out, but I think there's some promise there.

坦白说，如果Slack注定要被新兴工具取代——如果这已成为事实，那么被Salesforce收购只会让这个结果更加确定。

And frankly, if Slack was gonna get cut off at the knees where someone else was gonna be the tool for the new upstarts, if that was already true, being owned by Salesforce is gonna make that way more true.

就像如果你押注Slack的方式如同押注Stripe，认为下一个伟大公司会将其作为基础设施选择。

Like, if your bet on Slack is to to you know, the same way that you would bet on Stripe, like that the next great company is gonna use this as an infrastructure choice.

这种押注必须是你能够持续坚持的。

Like, that has to be the bet that you that you can keep making.

而我要说，Salesforce的收购动摇了我的信念——那个理想场景能否持续成真。

And I would say Salesforce buying it loosens my conviction in in, you know, that dream scenario staying true.

是啊。

Yeah.

会给Salesforce其他360云产品赋予负值。

Would assign a negative price to the rest of the Salesforce three sixty cloud.

嗯。

Yeah.

好吧。

Alright.

帕基，就这样吧。

Well, Paki, there we go.

你剩余的上行空间就是投资于那些能为企业打造下一代深度协作消息平台、并具备企业级Discord功能的人。

There's the remaining part of your upside is invest in in somebody that's gonna build the next messaging deep collaboration layer for the enterprise with Discord type features for the enterprise.

就这样。

There we go.

或者如我们所熟知且喜爱的，可以直接投资腾讯，这样就能间接持有部分Discord股份。

Or as we all know and love, we can just invent invest in Tencent and own a little piece of Discord that way.

是的。

Yes.

所以越想腾讯，我们越应该做个免责声明——至少我是他们的股东。

What so the more I think about Tencent and we should do a disclaimer where all or at least I'm a shareholder.

我觉得你也是，帕克。

I think you are, Pac.

这个我不太清楚。

I don't know about that.

但这就有点像...我对伯克希尔也有同样的感觉。

But it's kinda like I I feel the same way about Berkshire.

对吧？

Right?

就像我本可以...我甚至不能，但如果可以的话，我会去投资KKR、红杉这些能给我高回报的基金之类的。

It's like I could go I I can't even, but if I could go invest in KKR and Sequoia and, like, all these funds and whatnot that are gonna give me great returns.

对吧？

Right?

但我得为此支付2%管理费和20%业绩提成，或者3%管理费和30%业绩提成。

But I'm gonna pay two and twenty or three and thirty on that.

或者我可以直接购买腾讯股票、Prosus股票（Naspers分拆出来的）或伯克希尔的股票。

Or I could just go buy Tencent shares or Prosus shares, which is the spin out from Naspers or Berkshire shares.

我无需支付任何管理费和业绩分成，就能接触到全球范围内同等优秀甚至更出色的投资者。

I could pay no management fees and no carry to get access to equally good if not better investors globally.

我昨天碰巧查了这个数据。

I looked this up yesterday coincidentally.

你知道自从我八月份写关于腾讯的文章以来，他们持有的资产和前十持仓的价值增长了多少吗？

Do you know how much since I wrote about Tencent, call it, you know, in August, since I wrote about Tencent, how much the value of their holdings and their top 10 holdings has increased?

哦，我看到你的推文了，继续说。

Oh, I I saw your tweet, so go for it.

550亿美元，如果按Unity的增长率估算Epic的增长，这个数字会达到640亿。

$55,000,000,000, and it's 64 if you assume that Epic has kind of grown at the same rate that Unity has.

我认为如果上市的话，确实会达到这个水平。

And I would imagine that, you know, if you're public, it it would.

这简直太疯狂了。

Which is just wild.

与此同时，股价虽然略有上涨，但整体相对平稳。

Meanwhile, the share price has been you know, it's like up a little bit, but but relatively flat.

你知道成本价是多少吗？

What do you know what the basis is?

就是当你查看所有这些投资的买入价格时？

Like, when you look at all the purchase prices of all those investments?

我通过谷歌翻译将中文普通话内容转为英文，从他们700项投资中筛选出了103项。

It was so I pulled a 103 of their 700 investments by, you know, translating things in Google translate from Chinese from Mandarin to to English.

光是这一点就已经很离谱了。

So even the fact that is crazy.

虽然很多项目的成本价我不清楚，但显然他们投资的Snap公司已经翻倍了，对吧？

I don't have the basis on a lot of them, but certainly they've been in companies for snap, their investment just doubled, right?

而在特斯拉，他们曾持有5%的股份。

And Tesla, they had 5%.

显然这些投资表现非常出色。

And so that obviously has done phenomenally well.

Spotify的股价已经翻倍。

Spotify has doubled.

他们投资组合里所有这些大公司——Epic、即将IPO的Roblox、估值飙升且更具吸引力的Discord——全都至少翻倍了。

So like just all these massive companies that sit in their portfolio and have doubled plus Epic, plus Roblox, which is about to IPO, plus Discord, which has had its valuation shoot up and is now even more attractive.

随便想一家好公司，你猜谁投资了它们？很可能腾讯就在股东名单里。

So like any good company that you can think of and you're like, I wonder who's invested in them, Tencent is probably there.

不过对你们来说好消息是：我觉得没人能收购腾讯。

Well, good news for you is I don't think anybody's gonna acquire Tencent.

所以你可以长期持有它。

So I think you can let that ride for a long time.

你觉得如果亚马逊试图收购腾讯，美国政府会作何反应？

How do you think the US government would feel if Amazon tried to acquire Tencent?

我觉得美国政府应该没意见。

I feel like the US government would be fine Yeah.

这并没有后退一点。

With That's not back a little bit.

是的。

Yeah.

确实。

True.

哦，天啊。

Oh, man.

好吧。

Alright.

那么，让我们试着总结一下，这里的底线是什么？

So let's let's try and get to some, like, what's the bottom line here?

已经有很多观点了。

There's been a lot of takes.

我先暂时不考虑价格因素，让我们只讨论叙事的底线。

I'm gonna close my eyes on price for a minute and just and let's just talk about, like, narrative bottom line.

比如，Paki，如果你必须总结这件事，他们会说‘太长不看’，那你觉得这次收购有什么吸引人的地方？

Like, Paki, if you had to summarize this and they're like, well, TLDR, tell me about, you know, why is this acquisition interesting?

经过一小时的讨论后，你的看法是什么？

And why and what's your take after an hour here of talking about it?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我认为这次收购有几个有趣的原因。

I think the acquisition is interesting for a few reasons.

我觉得这次收购很有意思。

I think the acquisition is interesting.

首先，正如你们指出的，这给了Slack一支庞大的专业销售团队，可以将产品推广到所有此前难以立足的组织中。

One, because as you guys pointed out, it gives Slack this massive professional sales force to go push their product into all of the orgs where it struggled to gain a foothold so far.

从产品角度看，如果他们能找到方法整合Slack Connect和Salesforce，让人们能轻松地与客户甚至潜在目标沟通（在交易规模足够大时愿意加入同一个Slack频道），那会很有趣。

I think product wise, it could potentially be interesting if they can figure out a way to integrate Slack Connect and Salesforce and make it really easy for people to communicate both with their clients and even with potential targets on big enough deals that they'd be willing to enter into a Slack channel together.

另外有趣的是——我们还没谈到这点——Salesforce是少数没被国会传唤的大型收购方。

And I think it's interesting because and we haven't talked about this, but Salesforce is kind of the biggest acquirer that didn't get dragged up in front of Congress.

那么Salesforce是否处于这种独特位置，可以成为低调收购所有目标公司的企业，而其他公司都暴露在反垄断审查之下？

And so is Salesforce in this really unique position where they can be this under the radar company that just picks off all of the targets while everyone else is kind of exposed to antitrust scrutiny?

微软就没有。

Well, Microsoft didn't.

他们卷入了

They were involved in

话题的某些部分， 可能是后来的事情。

some Maybe of that, in later one.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

他们确实卷入了。

They were.

这个观点很中肯。

That's a fair point.

出于反垄断考虑，他们很可能是唯一一个确实无法收购的公司。

They certainly for antitrust reasons they're probably the only one who actually could not have acquired Yeah.

而其他公司收购Slack的话，从表面上看可能不太合适。

Slack whereas everyone else maybe optically it wouldn't have looked good.

而且微软还得应对司法部带来的后遗症。

Plus Microsoft's gotta have such a hangover from the DOJ.

他们

They

确实。

do.

我的数据是八年前的，不过确实如此。

I well, my data is eight years old, but yes.

其实本，你可以谈谈。

Well, actually Ben, you could talk.

微软内部有哪些流程和控制措施来确保你们永远不会在文件中使用'垄断'这个词？

What are the internal processes and controls within Microsoft to make sure that you never write the word monopoly in a document?

情况并没有你想象的那么糟糕。

It wasn't as bad as you would think.

只有当某个事项真正上升到重大战略举措的严肃讨论层面时，才会被纳入考虑范围。

It's only if something really gets elevated to serious discussion of a big strategic move that it gets considered.

这其实并不属于IC（信息内容）层面的问题。

It's not really at sort of the IC level.

我可以说当时有一个完整的里程碑事件。

I will say there was a whole milestone.

我试着回忆微软里程碑的周期——Office部门大概是六个月，那时有个关于办公文件格式的文档里程碑或清理里程碑之类的工作。

And I'm trying to remember how long Microsoft's milestones were, maybe six months in Office, where it was like the documentation milestone or the cleanup milestone or something like that around the office file format.

因为司法部的很多指控都围绕这点：你们声称拥有开放文件格式，但只有你们自己掌握该格式的技术文档。

Because a lot of the DOJ stuff was around, wait, you claim to have this open file format, but you're the only ones who have any documentation on how the file format works.

所以我确实知道，事后不得不投入数十亿美元人力成本进行清理工作。

So I do know that there's entire sort of, like, billions of dollars that had to go into the manpower of cleanup after that.

因此现在确实建立了一些流程机制。

So then there's there's some processes in place.

不过，没有。

But, no.

它并不是说，如果你打错字，电脑上就会有什么东西闪烁提示。

It's it there's not, like, a thing that blinks at your at your computer if you type the wrong word.

公司游戏之夜，除了大富翁什么都能玩。

Company game night, you can play anything but monopoly.

是的。

Yes.

我在想象那个场景，嗯，现在规模太大了。

I'm I'm envisioning like the well, it's too big now.

但当年盖茨会把所有实习生叫到自家后院，就像，他会站在台上说：好了

But when the days when Gates used to have all the interns over to his backyard, just, like, have, like, a like, he'd get up on stage and be like, alright.

这是你们的入职须知。

Here's your orientation.

比如，你们绝对不能讲这些话，做这些事。

Like, you must absolutely not say these things, do these things.

对。

Right.

我们的敌人是政府。

Our enemy is the government.

好吧，让我用我的...帕基，太棒了。

Well, me let me come in with my so, Paki, great.

我认为有三大要点。

I think great three points.

另外我想补充一点，这也是我一直在思考但没深入讨论的，就是通过收购实现增长这个概念。我们之前讨论过，特别是在《LP秀》节目中与《局外人》作者威尔·桑代克探讨过。

The one other point that I would make, that that's sort of the thing I've been noodling on, that we didn't really talk about is this notion of growing by acquisition, which is something that we've talked about, especially on The LP Show with Will Thorndyke, author of The Outsiders.

这是媒体公司和其他‘局外人’CEO常用的策略——核心业务有增长但增速平缓时，

It's a famous sort of move by media companies and other outsider CEOs where the core business has growth but not insane growth.

通过收购高增长资产来扩大公司规模。

And you know, you grow the company by acquiring high growth assets.

当然，可以讨论Slack相对于如今其他SaaS公司是否算高增长资产，但它作为一家规模可观的企业级公司，如果Salesforce想实质性地实现季度企业收入增长，就必须通过收购来开辟新的收入流。

And you know, again, can debate whether Slack is a high growth asset relative to some of these other SaaS companies these days, but they're a large enough enterprise company where if what Salesforce wants to do is meaningfully grow their enterprise revenue quarter over quarter, they got to acquire their way into new revenue streams to do that.

那么，他们可能收购哪些未来能带来大规模收入流的领域呢？

And where are there possibly large future revenue streams that they could acquire?

Slacks。

Slacks.

所以我认为，如果要解释为何在没有实质性产品整合的情况下还要进行这笔交易，那就是你完全可以通过Salesforce自身来加速其增长。

So I think that's a If I sort of had to describe why would you do this deal if there's not real product integration to be done, But you sure as heck can increase their growth through your own Salesforce.

但由于Slack这款产品的市场渗透率相对较低，这就是我对Salesforce此次行动的理解。

But because the market is relatively underpenetrated with this Slack product, that's how I would describe what Salesforce is up to here.

David，还有其他要补充的吗？

David, anything else?

我认为唯一可以快速讨论的是，其他潜在收购方（比如谷歌）如果参与竞购会是什么情况。

I think the only thing is we could do a quick what would have happened otherwise on other potential interested acquirers.

可能主要是谷歌。

Probably namely Google.

我们之前稍微提到过Zoom。

We touched on Zoom a little bit.