特别节目：亚马逊未Bound（与布拉德·斯通合谈）

有一年他们请了迈克尔·刘易斯来演讲。

It they had Michael Lewis come speak that one year.

书里我写了很多嘉宾和与会者。

I've got a bunch of the guests and the attendees in in the book.

我们什么时候能收到明年的邀请函？

When when are we get are we getting our invites for next year?

我期待着我的邀请函。

I am hoping for mine.

但事实上，我查了一下，这是亚马逊支付的。

But in fact, because I looked into it, Amazon pays for it.

贝索斯总是带着家人参加，称这是他一年中最美好的时光。

And Bezos always he brought his family, called it the best part of his year.

他非常喜欢这个活动。

He loved it.

本质上，你必须先将文学界，再将娱乐界引入亚马逊的圈子，让他们互相认识，巩固关系，而这对他来说非常重要，因为他正在思考，Prime 不仅仅是一个配送服务，更是一个包含重要内容的综合套餐。

And it was essentially you had to almost put this, you know, first, the literary community and then the entertainment community, bring them into Amazon's orbit, get to know people, strengthen the relationships, and, yeah, showed how important that was to him as he was thinking, you know, more about Prime being a bundle of of important content than not not just a shipping program.

是的

Yeah.

我被震撼了。

I was blown away.

所有这些都让我觉得完全不像亚马逊，而且它始于2010年。

Like, everything about that just seemed so anti Amazon to me and that it started in 2010.

这确实体现了它不断演变的雄心，因为最初它纯粹是一个文学周末活动，会有知名作家出席。

It really is a symbol of its evolving ambitions because it was very much a literary weekend, and you would have big name authors.

乔治·R·R·马丁会是焦点。

George r r Martin would be the center of attention.

你知道的？

You know?

实际上，他现在可能仍然是焦点。

Actually, he probably would still be the center of attention.

嗯，正如你在书中提到的，贝索斯想要他的《权力的游戏》。

Well, Bezos, as you said in the book, he wants his Game of Thrones.

对吧？

Right?

他想要他的《权力的游戏》。

He wants his Game of Thrones.

对吧？

Right?

而且如果他们在接下来几天收购了MGM，他们至少会拥有詹姆斯·邦德。

And maybe if they purchase MGM in the next couple of days, they'll have their James Bond at least.

好了，各位听众。

Alright, listeners.

现在是个绝佳的机会，来感谢我们非常兴奋的新赞助商——Sierra。

Now is a great time to thank a new friend of the show that we are very excited about, Sierra.

是的。

Yes.

我们非常高兴能与Brett、Clay以及他们那里的整个团队合作。

We are thrilled to be working with Brett, Clay, and the entire team over there.

那我们为什么对Sierra感到兴奋呢？

So why are we excited about Sierra?

嗯，多年来我们在制作《Acquired》的过程中学到的一点是，一家优秀公司往往由其客户体验定义。

Well, one of the things that we've learned from making Acquired over the years is that a great company is often defined by its customer experience.

是的。

Yep.

但做到优秀很难。

But being great is hard.

与客户沟通成本很高。

Talking to customers is expensive.

虽然网站和应用程序很不错，但它们有点慢且笨重，你的客户还得花时间去学习它们。

And while websites and apps are great, they're also kinda slow and clunky, and your customers have to learn them.

而不是它们去了解你。

They don't learn you.

Sierra改变了这一切。

Sierra changes all that.

他们构建了面向客户的AI代理，能够完成各种惊人的任务，比如找到完美的房子、挑选电视节目、办理抵押贷款、配送沙发、退鞋、为患者进行医疗认证、订购信用卡、防止订阅者取消，等等。

They build customer facing AI agents that can do an insane range of things, like finding the perfect home or picking TV shows or originating mortgages, shipping a sofa, returning shoes, authenticating patients for health care, ordering credit cards, saving subscribers from canceling, and on and on.

在成立仅两年的时间里，他们已成为领先的对话式AI平台，吸引了ADT、Clear、Minted、Ramp、Redfin、Rocket Mortgage、Safe Flight、SiriusXM和Wayfair等数百家杰出公司，这些公司都信赖Sierra来提升客户体验。

In just two years since founding, they've become the leading conversational AI platform with hundreds of incredible companies like ADT, Clear, Minted, Ramp, Redfin, Rocket Mortgage, Safe Flight, SiriusXM, and Wayfair, all trusting Sierra for their customer experiences.

Sierra的设计足以满足财富500强企业的需求，包括医疗保健和金融服务等高度监管的行业，但它同样非常适合任何企业，包括你的企业。

Sierra was built to be powerful enough for Fortune 500 companies, including heavily regulated industries like health care and financial services, but it really works great for any business including yours.

使用Sierra，你只需构建一次AI代理，几周内即可在电话、聊天、短信、WhatsApp、电子邮件等多种渠道上部署，并支持30多种语言。

With Sierra, you can build your AI agent once and deploy it everywhere within weeks on the phone, in chat, SMS, WhatsApp, email, all in over 30 languages.

你甚至可以将其发布到ChatGPT上。

You can even publish it to ChatGPT.

凭借他们独特且与成果深度绑定的定价模式，你只需为Sierra实际带来的价值付费——包括提升客户满意度和问题解决率、降低成本以及增加收入。

And with their unique and insanely aligned outcomes based pricing model, you only pay for the value that Sierra delivers, increased customer satisfaction and resolution rates, lower costs, and higher revenue.

Sierra让全球优秀的企业能够日复一日、分分秒秒都展现出最佳状态。

Sierra enables the great companies of the world to show up at their best consistently every minute of every day.

事实上，我们对Sierra的评价极高，以至于大卫和我甚至投资了这家公司。

And in fact, we think so highly of Sierra that David and I even invested in the company.

要了解如何利用人工智能打造更出色、更人性化的客户体验，请访问 sierra.ai/acquired，并告知他们是本和大卫介绍的。

To find out how you can build better, more human customer experiences with AI, visit sierra.ai/acquired and tell them that Ben and David sent you.

我想听听你对三个独立业务线的看法，因为你对它们研究得非常深入。

So three individual business lines I wanna get your take on since you studied them so deeply.

我们先从视频开始。

Let's start with video.

亚马逊在视频领域投入的资金，据我们估计，轻松达到了1.02万亿美元。

There's now been, what do we think, $10.20, $3,040,000,000,000 dollars of capital from Amazon sunk into video easily.

这笔资本用得不错。

Good use of capital.

但结果尚不明确。

Jury's still out.

因为从亚马逊的财务报告中根本无法得知这一点。

Because there's no way to know this from Amazon's financial reporting.

当你思考Prime对整个亚马逊生态系统有多重要时，你会发现，正如我所说，物流虽然不再是核心，但娱乐正逐渐成为重心，而且亚马逊希望成为‘万物商店’，像DVD这样的货架早已消失。

When you think about how valuable Prime is to the whole Amazon ecosystem and the fact that, yes, shipping is receding as the centerpiece, as I said, you know, in the direction that entertainment is going in and the fact that Amazon wants to be The Everything Store and, like, the DVDs, you know, shelves disappeared.

这就是娱乐的未来。

This is the future of entertainment.

他们通常会先朝这些方向发展，然后再想办法实现盈利。

They tend to also move in these directions and then figure out how to monetize them later.

直到现在我们才看到 IMDb TV 的出现，你知道，这名字简直糟透了，但它是一个与 Prime Video 并存的流媒体服务，免费但由广告支持。

And so only now we're seeing the emergence of IMDb TV, which, you know, is a horrible name for anything, but is this streaming service that is alongside Prime Video and is free but supported by ads.

而且，你知道，现在你有了这个庞大的广告业务，我认为上个季度达到了60亿美元。

And, you know, and now you've got this massive advertising business, I think 6,000,000,000 in the last quarter.

嗯，那是另一个类别。

Well, that's the other category.

季度。

Quarter.

这是一个每季度60亿美元、利润率接近100%的业务。

It's a $6,000,000,000 a quarter business that's like a 100% margin.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

我不需要你评价这条业务线好不好。

That's one of the business lines I don't need your take on whether it's good or not.

很明显，它很好。

Like, it's obviously good.

所以在这本书里，我把这个章节称为‘后院的金矿’，因为它一直都在那里，只是他们后来把它启动了。

That's why in the book, I call it that chapter, the gold mine in the backyard because it was there, and they kinda turned it on.

因此，他们往里面添加的节目和内容越多，这个视频广告部分就越大。

And so the more programming and content they add to that, the larger the video ad component of that becomes.

所以这只不过是另一种商业建设行为。

And so it's just another act of business building.

它本身就有价值，然后以一些非常有趣的方式融入亚马逊生态系统，并推动核心零售飞轮。

On its own, it's valuable, and then it ties into the Amazon ecosystem in these really interesting ways and then drives the central retail flywheel.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是视频业务。

So that's video.

国际业务方面，你用了几章来讨论，首先，他们在中國的业务搞砸了，就像当年的易趣一样。

International, you devote a few chapters to this and, a, they screwed up China just like eBay back in the day.

不清楚任何西方公司是否能在那里的电商市场获胜，大概不会。

Unclear if any western company ever would have won there in ecommerce, probably not.

然后是你提到的印度和拉美，这也是他们投入了无数亿美元的业务线，你知道，贝索斯原本想骑着大象进场，结果只能坐上平板卡车去送支票。

Then India and LatAm that you talk about too, another business line that they have sunk untold billions into, you know, the scene of Bezos wanting to ride in on the elephant, and he has to settle for the flatbed truck to deliver the check to

他在印度的业务。

his in India.

对吧？

Right?

在印度。

In India.

是的。

Yep.

这些业务目前状况如何？

What's the state of those businesses?

关于印度，我认为他们在那里已经建立了庞大的业务。

So India, I I think they've built a big business there.

如果它仍然亏损，我一点也不感到惊讶。

It wouldn't surprise me if it was still unprofitable.

不过，我认为上个季度的国际业务收入首次实现了盈利。

Although, I think the international part of the income statement in the last quarter was profitable for one of the first times.

但在我看来，印度可能仍然是一个亏损的项目，部分原因是当地的政治环境对国际公司变得极为敌对。

But India strikes me as still probably a money losing proposition in part because the political climate there has become so hostile to international companies.

莫迪联盟已转向民族主义，他们正在保护构成该经济主体的夫妻小店。

The Modi coalition has become nationalist, and they're protecting the mom and pop shops that, you know, make up that economy.

因此，亚马逊不得不以纯平台业务的形式运营，并在一些方面受到限制，比如投资其平台上最大的卖家。

And so Amazon's had to operate as a pure marketplace business and really has been restricted in some with some of its workarounds, like, you know, investing in the largest sellers on its marketplace.

但它在印度投资了Prime Video、电视剧和电影，并改变了人们的购物方式，尤其是在大城市。

But it's invested in prime video and TV shows and movies there and, you know, and changed the way people shop, particularly in the larger cities.

而如今，一切都因新冠疫情而陷入混乱。

And now, of course, everything has been thrown into chaos by COVID nineteen.

我不认为这是失败。

I wouldn't call that a failure.

这仍然是一项代价高昂的正在进行中的工作。

It's still a bit of massively expensive work in progress.

我在书中引用贝索斯的话说：世界的未来在于美国、中国和印度。

I quote Bezos in the book as saying, The future of the world is The United States, China, and India.

我们必须在三个中成功两个。

We need to succeed in two out of three.

因此，他们不会接受拒绝。

So they're not taking no for an answer.

有趣的是，在印度，这场博弈似乎仍在继续，因为在我看来，Flipkart把公司卖给了沃尔玛，这简直是彻底搞砸了。

Well, and the interesting thing in India is it does seem like the game is still afoot because Flipkart, to my mind, I hadn't thought about this till reading the book, totally screwed up by selling to Walmart.

如果Flipkart仍然是一个独立的印度本土公司，我认为莫迪政府肯定会出手干预，扶持它。

Like, if Flipkart were still an independent Indian national company, absolutely, the Modi regime, to my mind, will be putting their fingers on the scale.

它本该像Reliance现在这样，成为本土的冠军企业。

It would be where reliance is right now as the homegrown champion.

我记得书中引用了一位Flipkart的董事会成员或投资者的话说：‘如果我们非得犯个错，那我们确实犯了。’

And I think I quote a a Flipkart maybe board member investor in the book is saying, if there was a mistake to make, we made it.

你还提到了一个特别精彩的引述。

There's also you had the great quote too.

我不知道你有没有提到名字，但是一位S团队成员说：‘我们不确定自己能否在印度成功，但我们知道沃尔玛一定会搞砸。’

I don't know that you had a name on it, but it was just an S team member said, we didn't know if we were gonna get it right in India, but we knew Walmart was gonna get it wrong.

没错。

Exactly.

而如今，Reliance这家原本以线下业务为主的巨头，正试图成为国家电子商务的领军者。

And then you have Reliance who's now an offline conglomerate who's now trying to be the national ecommerce champion.

但正如我们从经验中知道的，将实体店铺的运营专长转移到线上渠道并不容易，这完全是另一种生意。

And yet, as we know from experience, you know, moving, an expertise in physical stores into the online channel is not easy, and it's really a completely different business.

在某些方面，这确实具有颠覆性。

And in some ways, it's really disruptive.

所以，是的，这是一场正在进行的游戏。

So, yeah, that's a game in progress.

然后我在墨西哥讲了一个故事，部分原因有两个。

And then I tell a story in Mexico in part for two reasons.

第一，他们曾尝试在没有谷歌的情况下进入墨西哥市场，这很好地说明了贝索斯和杰夫·威尔基对亚马逊依赖谷歌的担忧，以及他们每年花费数十亿美元在搜索广告上获取客户。

One, they tried to launch in Mexico without Google, and it was a great illustration of how concerned Bezos and Jeff Wilkie were about Amazon's reliance on Google and and how they spent billions of dollars every year to advertise and get acquired customers via search.

因此，他们在没有搜索广告的情况下进入墨西哥市场，结果并不成功。

And so they launch in Mexico without, search advertising, and it doesn't work.

他们的数据完全颠倒，因为他们试图通过户外广告和传统广告来获取客户，成本极高，最终却毫无成效。

Their numbers are upside down because they're trying to acquire customers with billboards and conventional ads, and it's super expensive and ultimately unproductive.

于是他们启用了谷歌广告。

So they turn on Google advertising.

第二个有趣的原因是，这是一个悲剧性故事：他们聘请了墨西哥业务的CEO，结果此人被公司解雇，随后被指控雇人暗杀自己的妻子，之后便销声匿迹，再也没人见过他。

And then the second reason that was interesting was it's a tragic story, but they hired the CEO of their business in Mexico who ends up getting fired from the company and then is accused of having his wife assassinated and then goes on the lam and has never been seen since.

你在旧金山见过他吗？

And you had coffee with him in San Francisco?

就是之前？

Like Before

他雇了杀手，我完全不知道。

he he hired the assassins, I had absolutely no idea.

对我来说，这是一次有趣的观察。

And, you know, to me, it was an interesting look.

我的意思是，我不想过度解读，但他们确实聘请了这个人，让他负责他们在墨西哥的业务。

I mean, I don't wanna read too much of it, but, you know, they they hired the guy, and he they had him run their their business in Mexico.

显然，他是个品行不端的人。

And, obviously, he turned out to be an unsavory character.

当时有那么一点判断上的失误，谁知道呢？

You know, there was a little bit of interesting judgment, and who knows?

也许是不可预见的。

Maybe unforeseeable.

但这个故事以一种几乎难以置信的悲剧收场。

But that was a story that ended in, like, really hard to believe tragedy.

完全没错。

Totally.

真让人震惊，这个细节竟然出现在这本商业书籍里。

It is staggering that that nugget is in this business book.

而且，我们甚至还没谈到杰夫个人生活中2018到2019年的整个风波。

And, like, we haven't even gotten to the whole sort of twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen saga in Jeff's personal life.

但你读这本书，绝对不枯燥。

But, like, you're reading this it's not by any means dry.

这是世界上最有意思的公司之一，却被写成了类似惊悚小说的风格，但它本质上是一本商业书籍。

It's one of the most interesting companies in the world written in this thriller like way, but it's a business book.

然后你听到这个小故事，你会说：天啊，对不起。

And then you hear that anecdote, you're like, I'm I'm sorry.

什么？

What?

你在写这个故事的时候，有没有克制住自己，不想进一步深挖这段戏剧性的内容？

Did you have to hold yourself back from wanting to, like, dig in further to that as a drama?

有一点。

A little bit.

我的意思是，我确实深入挖掘了，但不得不有所节制，因为这段内容的语气和主题都太过惊人和突兀。

I mean, I did dig in further and that and, you know, and and sort of had to measure it because it is so startling and different in tone and in content.

我觉得这部分很有意思，而且也很相关。

I felt like it was interesting, and and I think it was relevant.

这一部分的高潮在于，暗杀事件发生后，亚马逊不得不关闭了谷歌广告，因为相关新闻不断弹出。

And the kicker was of that whole section was how Amazon had to turn off Google AdWords after the assassination because the news story kept popping up.

听到这一点，真的非常有趣，也展现了这两家公司之间奇特的相互依赖关系。

And to hear, like, it was just so interesting and showed the strange interdependence between the two companies.

这正好让我想问一个问题，因为我们之前聊了很多关于Flipkart的事。

Well, this is like a place where I really wanted to ask this question because we were talking a lot about Flipkart.

读完这本书后，我非常清楚地意识到，杰夫·贝佐斯确实关心竞争，而不仅仅是客户。

It became very obvious to me reading this book that Jeff Bezos does indeed care about competition in addition to the customer.

这是一个著名的轶事，多年来我听上千位初创企业创始人说过：‘我不关注竞争对手，因为杰夫·贝佐斯就不关注。’

And it's this famous anecdote, and I've heard it quoted to me by a thousand startup founders over the years saying, oh, I don't pay attention to the competition because Jeff Bezos doesn't.

我只关心我的客户。

And I'm only worried about my customer.

嗯，没错。

And, like, sure.

但既然你已经深入研究了这么多，你如何理解他实际上如何看待竞争，以及在什么时候该关注、什么时候不该关注？

But how would you after diving in as deep as you have, how would you massage how he actually looks at competition and and when to pay attention to it and when not to?

他们关于这一点所说的任何话都是不真诚的。

Whatever they say is disingenuous about that.

对吧？

Right?

这纯粹是表演。

And it's it's theater.

但布拉德，这是一个领导力原则。

But, Brad, it's a leadership principle.

对。

Right.

当然，我们会关注竞争对手，但我们只是研究他们，而不会过分沉迷于他们。

Of course, we pay attention to them, but we we study them, but we just don't obsess over them.

我们痴迷的是客户。

We obsess over customers.

你知道，贝索斯2014年来到印度时，Flipkart的广告牌沿着机场道路一路排开。

And, know, Bezos comes to India in 2014, and Flipkart's got billboards, you know, lining the road from the airport.

他当时正在研究他们的运营方式，而他们推出了盛大的‘百亿大促’。

And he's there studying their methods, and they launch big billion day.

然后他坚持在第二天举办一场庆祝印度航天计划的活动，还想要用大象制造轰动效应。

And then he insists on launching a sort of celebration of India's space program the next day, and he wants to make a splash with the elephants.

你知道的？

You know?

而且这一切都非常明确。

And it's all very explicit.

还有，你知道的，关于谷歌在墨西哥的故事，书中另一处提到他批准了Prime Now，真正进军杂货配送和两小时快速配送，因为谷歌正在推出Google Express。

And, you you know, the Google story in Mexico, there's another part of the book where he authorizes Prime Now, you know, and and a real foray into grocery delivery and and fast two hour delivery because Google is launching Google Express.

而某一天，他们开始在西雅图——他的家门口——推出这项服务。

And at some point, they're launching it in Seattle, his backyard.

这原本是他认为未来会属于他的机会。

And this was an opportunity that he thought would be there for him down the road.

但突然间，他看到谷歌也开始行动了。

And suddenly he saw, you know, Google moving after it.

这是一场土地争夺战。

And this was a land grab.

我不怪他们。

I don't hold it against them.

在我看来，这一切都像是很好的商业决策。

Like, it's it all seems like good business to me.

但，是的，认为他们有着更高的理想，因而可以超越对竞争对手的关注，这种想法绝对是不真实的。

But, yeah, the idea that they've got a higher ideal that puts them above or beyond focusing on competitors is definitely not true.

说到贝佐斯的这种竞争态势，我觉得你在这本书里没有写到，但Prime Now是否也部分是对Instacart的回应？

To that moment and this competitive dynamic of Bezos, I don't think you wrote this in the book, but was Prime Now also partially a response to Instacart?

我无法忽视这个讽刺：Instacart和Flipkart的创始人都是前亚马逊工程师，他们当时心想：‘我们应该做这个。’

And I can't ignore the irony of both Instacart and Flipkart being founded by former Amazon engineers who were like, we should do this.

而亚马逊却说：‘我们不会做这个。’

And then Amazon was like, we're not gonna do this.

结果他们自己去做了，还在亚马逊内部融到了数十亿美元。

And then they go do it and raise billions of dollars in Amazon.

这就像，我们来干吧。

It's like, we're doing it.

不。

No.

在那一章里，不只是Google Express。

It was and in that in that chapter, it's not just Google Express.

这是Instacart及其后续的融资轮次。

It's Instacart and their successive fundraising rounds.

有时，是《华尔街日报》、《泰晤士报》或彭博社的一篇报道引起了他们的注意，从而引发了竞争反应。

And sometimes it's a story in The Wall Street Journal or The Times or Bloomberg that catches their eye, and there's a competitive response.

是的，确实，Instacart由前员工创立这一点让他们深受触动，他们试图模仿它。

And, yes, certainly Instacart, the fact that this was a former employee had to hit them hard, and they tried to copy it.

我谈过Prime Now最初的样子，其中有一个叫Copperfield的组成部分，其目标是像Instacart那样，整合线下的实体零售商，利用他们的货架作为配送中心，并通过承包商将商品配送到客户家中。

I talk about what Prime Now was at the beginning, and one element of it, which they called Copperfield, was an effort to basically do the same thing as Instacart, kind of syndicate offline physical retailers and use their shelves as fulfillment centers and deliver those with contractors to people's homes.

当他们试图模仿Instacart时发现，没有任何一家杂货店愿意与亚马逊合作。

And what they found when they tried to emulate Instacart is that no grocery store was gonna work with Amazon.

这简直是疯了，尤其是因为亚马逊以典型的风格，在西雅图，可能还有旧金山和洛杉矶，同时正在开展Amazon Fresh的实验，这在当时对杂货店构成了巨大的生存威胁。

That would be madness, particularly since in a very Amazon like way, they also had this Amazon Fresh experiment happening in Seattle and by that point, probably San Francisco and LA that seemed like this big mortal threat to the grocery stores.

但他们当时并不知道，Amazon Fresh其实是个灾难，根本没怎么扩张；而Instacart的优势在于它是一个为其他杂货店提供技术平台的服务，而亚马逊则同时扮演了三方和一方的角色。

Well, little did they know Amazon Fresh at the time was kind of a disaster, you know, and and wasn't really being expanded, but Instacart had the benefit of being a technology platform for other grocery stores, whereas Amazon was kinda doing both, a little bit of three p and one p.

因此，他们甚至在2015年去找了全食超市，却被拒绝了，这在一定程度上预示了后来双方关系的发展。

And so they even went to Whole Foods back in 2015 and got told no, which, you know, was interesting and precipitated a little bit the relationship down the line.

有一个有趣的细节让我想起了书中的内容。

There was a fun little moment that just reminded me of in the book.

我认为你要么写到，要么暗示了约翰·麦基在全食超市通过彭博社，或者在看到彭博社的报道后，联系了贝索斯。

I think you either wrote or implied that John Mackie at Whole Foods reached out to Bezos either through Bloomberg or after having seen something in Bloomberg.

是的。

Right.

这两家公司一直在相互试探。

The companies had been circling each other.

活动人士和投资者一直在推动全食超市的变动。

Activists, investors were kind of bubbling Whole Foods Market.

我的彭博社同事斯宾塞·索珀写了一篇文章，提到亚马逊过去曾考虑收购全食超市，而他们确实这么做过。

My colleague at Bloomberg, Spencer Soper, wrote an article that suggested that Amazon had considered buying Whole Foods in the past, you know, which they had.

这成为麦基决定拨打电话联系他们的导火索。

And that was a precipitating event to Mackie saying maybe we should pick up the phone and call these guys.

也许亚马逊是我们脱身的出路。

Maybe Amazon's our way out.

然后我记下了书里提到的那个人的名字，但我可能想不起来了。

And then I've got the name of whoever this was in the book, and I'm not gonna be able to remember it.

但给麦基提供建议的某个人曾活跃于民主政治，名叫杰·卡尼，这促成了这笔交易。

But somebody who was advising Mackie was had been active in democratic politics and called Jay Carney, and that precipitated the deal.

太有趣了。

Fascinating.

这就像大卫和我做的第一批重大报道之一。

It was like one of David and my first big episodes.

我醒来后看到了新闻。

I woke up, saw the news.

我们互相发了短信，说天哪。

We texted each other and said, oh my god.

我们必须做这个报道。

We have to do this.

我们必须报道亚马逊和全食超市的这笔交易，尽管我们之前从未做过现场直播报道。

We have to cover Amazon and and Whole Foods even though we've never done, like, a live on the scene thing before.

当然，在那个历史阶段，这根本不在叙事之中。

And that was, of course, nowhere not a part of the narrative at that point in history.

所以听到这段被挖掘出来，真有意思。

So it's just cool to hear it unearthed.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我想听听你对第三个业务线的看法，不是最原始的那个，但非常接近亚马逊最初三大支柱之一的市场平台。

So the third business line I want your opinion on is, not the OG OG, but pretty close the the first kind of pillar of the stool of Amazon is marketplace.

我一直以为，这个业务坚不可摧，简直不可思议。

You know, I'd always assumed that, like, this is an unassailable, unbelievable business.

你知道的？

You know?

即使把AWS搁一边不谈，它本身就应该是一家FAANG公司。

Even put AWS aside, which on its own should be a FAANG company.

美国市场本身也应当是一家FAANG公司。

US marketplace also on its own should be a FAANG company.

你对当前市场的情况描绘了一幅相当黯淡的图景。

You paint kind of a dark picture of what's going on with marketplace right now.

你怎么看？

What's your take?

再多说一点。

Tell us more.

多年来，他们做出了一系列非常合乎逻辑的决策，从而释放了巨大的机遇和增长空间。

Well, they made a series of very logical choices over the years, which unlocked a tremendous amount of opportunity and growth.

事实上，我写这本书时的一个重要问题是：一家已经运营了二十年的公司，其零售业务是如何重新加速增长的？

In fact, one of the big questions I going into the book was how does retail growth, you know, of a twenty year old company start to reaccelerate?

对吧？

Right?

这似乎违背了企业发展的自然规律。

That seems to defy the laws of company gravity.

你知道，公司越大，增长就越慢。

You know, the bigger you are, the slower you grow.

那么，2015年、2016年到底发生了什么，让GMV突然开始飙升？

And so what exactly happened there in 2015, 2016 that GMV kind of takes off?

是的。

Yeah.

我记得当时深入研究过，并与那个团队的前成员交谈过。

I remember looking into it and talking to former members of that team.

本质上，again，回到竞争这个点，他们受到了两家公司的启发，眼界被打开了。

And essentially, again, back to the competition point, they they are quote, unquote inspired, their eyes opened by two companies.

第一，阿里巴巴正在扩展速卖通，其理念是：那些在中国阿里巴巴平台上学会销售的商家，现在可以触达美国和欧洲的客户。

One, Alibaba is expanding AliExpress with this idea that these sellers who have learned how to sell on Alibaba in China could now reach customers in The US and Europe.

你知道，这是一个极具吸引力的想法。

You know, that was a seductive idea.

我认为这引起了亚马逊高管们的注意。

I think got the attention of Amazon executives.

但事实上，我认为除了欧洲部分地区外，这个策略并没有很好地实现。

But in fact, I I think it except for maybe parts of Europe, it really hasn't worked out that well.

但无论如何，这算是一种启发。

But in any event, that was sort of one inspiration.

而且，我在书中引用了亚马逊高管内部的一些沟通，他们表达了担忧，担心马云可能会为了拓展中国以外的市场而将费用降到零。

And there were there was internal communication among Amazon executives that I cite in the book, you know, expressing fear that maybe Jack Ma would, like, reduce fees to nothing in an effort to expand outside China.

这在中国电商中是很正常的，就像我们看到的那样。

Which is normal in China ecommerce as we see on acquired.

没错。

Exactly.

另一个启发是Wish.com在进行一种地理套利：让中国和其他国家的卖家以极低的费用、无品牌、普通商品、有时质量较低、但发货周期长达数周的方式向西方销售，尽管如此，其商品种类丰富、价格极低，并且在硅谷成功融资并迅速崛起。

And then, you know, the other inspiration was wish.com conducting a kind of geographic arbitrage, getting sellers in China and other countries to sell to the West with really low fees, no name brands, generic products, sometimes low quality, and weeks long wait shipping times, but nevertheless, huge selection and really low prices and was raising money in Silicon Valley and kinda taking off.

于是贝佐斯看着他的下属们说：你们就负责这个。

And so Bezos looks at his, you know, his lieutenants and says, you're on this.

对吧？

Right?

那就是他们所需要的一切。

And that was like, that's all they need.

就像教父的那个狡黠的点头。

It's like the sly nod from the godfather.

于是，他们推出了市场平台。

And so, you know, they open up marketplace.

他们基本上消除了从中国向全球销售的所有障碍。

They basically reduce all the friction to selling from China to the rest of the world.

他们把中文翻译成其他语言。

You know, they're translating from Mandarin.

这是自助服务，注册一下，就能 anywhere 销售。

It's self-service, you know, sign up, sell anywhere.

他们在港口集中商品，并以低成本运往西方。

They're aggregating product in the ports and shipping it at low cost to the West.

他们把商品存放在亚马逊的配送中心。

They're storing items in Amazon fulfillment centers.

他们让跨境贸易变得非常容易。

They're making it really easy for cross border commerce to happen.

这听起来很棒，确实也很棒。

And that sounds great, and it was great.

对消费者来说很好。

Great for consumers.

我的意思是，从收入角度看，业务正在蓬勃发展。

I mean and the business is booming in terms of revenue.

顺便说一下，亚马逊发现，如果你提供一个精选的、高价的知名品牌商品组合，比如在鞋类领域打造一个井然有序的店铺。

And by the way, Amazon has seen that if you offer a curated selection of branded items at a high price, a very orderly store in, say, shoes.

然后你用无品牌、低价、种类繁多甚至质量较低的杂乱商品组合进行A/B测试，结果客户仍然倾向于选择混乱但种类丰富、价格低廉的商品。

And then you AB test that with a disorderly selection of unbranded products at low prices with extensive selection and even low quality, actually, customers still gravitate to the chaos and the large selection of the low prices.

所以他们知道客户想要什么。

So they knew what customers wanted.

亚马逊的企业导向始终围绕着客户的需求。

The corporate compass at Amazon is always pointed to what customers want.

所以再次说明，这对消费者有利。

So again, good for customers.

随后，西方的每个卖家突然被来自海外的一波竞争冲得溃不成军。

And then every seller in the West is suddenly blown out of the water by a wave of competition from overseas.

这些卖家不用缴纳同样的税，没有同等的劳动力成本，他们要么靠近制造商，要么本身就是制造商，没有品牌，没有加价，而且在那个群体中，还有一批卖家玩得很狠，甚至耍阴招。

Sellers who aren't paying the same taxes, who, you know, don't have the same labor costs, who are close to or in some cases are the manufacturers, no brands, no markups on on prices, and then also, you know, a group of sellers in that community that are playing hardball, you know, or wearing black hats.

是的。

Yep.

盗用知识产权或各种其他手段。

Stealing IP or all sorts of

利用评价。

with the reviews.

天哪。

Oh, man.

我也不知道你们有没有遇到过，但我现在从亚马逊订购东西，经常收到一张小卡片，上面写着：写个评价并发送到这个邮箱，我们会给你点东西。

The number of times I don't know about everybody listening or you, but, like, the number of times I get a little card on stuff I order from Amazon now saying, write a review and email it to us at this address and, you know, we'll send you something.

当你看到关于爆炸的平衡车、穿了两次就自毁的运动鞋，或者赤裸裸的欺诈行为时，

And when you read about exploding hoverboards or, you know, sneakers that are self destructing after the second wear or out and out fraud.

这是因为亚马逊构建了这些系统并将其规模化。

It's because Amazon built these systems and scaled them.

而且以亚马逊的方式，用算法和软件来运行它们，缺乏太多的人工关怀与筛选，因为他们行动迅速，急于建立这些系统，并试图在阿里巴巴、Wish或其他平台之前实现市场的全球化。

And in an Amazon like way, ran them with algorithms and software and not a lot of, you know, human care and curation because they were moving quickly and setting up these systems and trying to globalize the marketplace and, you know, before Alibaba or Wish or anyone else.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你提到的一个观点非常有意思，那就是，确实存在假冒伪劣和知识产权盗窃的大问题，还有工厂直接销售本应属于他人产品的情况。

I thought that was a really interesting point that you made that was like, sure, there's this big problem with counterfeiting and IP theft and, you know, factory selling direct even though, really, it's someone else's product.

但让我们暂时把这一点搁置一边。

But let's even put that aside for a minute.

目前正发生一场合法的竞争，一方是中国那些成本结构更低、愿意遵守规则并愿意打造合法品牌的制造商。

There's a sort of legitimate battle going on between Chinese manufacturers with lower cost structures who are willing to play by the rules and are willing to build legitimate brands.

我认为你提到的Anchor品牌就是一个例子，它生产手机充电器和各种小工具。

I think Anchor is the the brand that you cited that made, like, the phone chargers and all sorts of, like, gadgets.

他们的成本结构远低于美国品牌，因为这家公司的所有环节都基于中国。

And they just have a dramatically lower cost structure than the American brand that they're selling against because everything about the company is China based.

只要他们能将产品运送到美国客户手中，就总能在第三方卖家平台上以更低的价格竞争。

And as long as they can ship them to American customers, they can always undercut on on the third party seller marketplace.

Anchor的首席执行官Steven Yang曾对一位名叫Bernie Thompson的西方卖家说，Bernie是Pluggable的首席执行官，这家公司也经营同样的电子产品配件。

Steven Yang, the CEO of Anchor, says to a Western seller named Bernie Thompson, who's who's the CEO of Pluggable, which is in the same business accessories.

他以一种非常友善的方式对Bernie说，你知道，我们迟早会把你碾压过去，因为确实，你根本无法与我们竞争。

And he says to him at one point, you know, in a very kind way, because Steven's a nice guy, he says, Bernie, we're gonna run you over just because, you know, this acknowledgment that you really can't compete.

Steven和Anchor拥有制造合作关系，并且具备根本性的成本优势。

And Steven and and Anchor, they have the manufacturing relationships, and they have an underlying cost advantage.

但我回过头去，重新联系了多年来在贝佐斯致股东信中被提及的许多卖家，想了解他们现在的想法：当年他们曾是亚马逊平台的倡导者。

But I went back to a lot of the sellers who over the years had been mentioned in Bezos' investor letters to take their temperature and like, here they are in the letters as the evangelist for Amazon Marketplace.

我想知道，经过这么多年，他们的态度会有什么变化？

And I thought after many years, what would their tune be?

结果，他们所有人都变得不满，原因正是我们正在讨论的这些问题。

And all of them had become disgruntled in because of exactly what we're talking about.

但其中一个人有句绝佳的比喻：我觉得自己是被邀请来吃感恩节大餐的火鸡。

And yet one of them had that great quote, I feel like I was invited for Thanksgiving dinner and I was the turkey.

这正是我意识到的时刻，因为，坦白说，我一直是亚马逊的铁杆粉丝。

This was the moment I mean, for me, like, as, again, unapologetically a huge Amazon fanboy.

直到那一刻，我还在说，是的。

Up until that moment, I was like, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但这对顾客有好处。

But it's good for customers.

这对顾客有好处。

It's good for customers.

这对顾客有好处。

It's good for customers.

然后当你去接触亚马逊过去一直支持的每一个卖家，甚至那些原本不太情愿的人，你都能看得出来，他们相当生气。

And then when you went to every single person, every single seller that Amazon had championed in the past and every even the guy that was sort of reluctant, like, you could tell, like, he was pretty pissed off.

他就是不想说出口。

He just didn't wanna say it.

但我要说，伯尼·汤普森就是投资者信中提到的那位卖家，斯蒂文·杨在Anchor节目中说过‘我要碾过你’的那个人。

But I will say that Bernie Thompson is one of those sellers who was mentioned in the investor letter, this guy that Steven Yang of Anchor said, I'm going to run you over.

而在所有这些卖家当中，Plugable依然表现良好。

And Plugable among all those guys still is doing well.

他仍在亚马逊上销售产品。

He's still selling on Amazon.

他并没有那么愤愤不平，尽管他确实向亚马逊提出了一些论点，试图促使他们修改某些政策。

He he is not he wasn't as embittered, although he did bring some arguments to Amazon to try to get them to change some policy.

你看，现在的卖家正在被整合。

And look, sellers are being aggregated right now.

你们可能已经听说过这件事了。

You guys have probably heard about this.

所以这个市场上显然存在机会。

So there's obviously opportunity in the marketplace.

它们正被更大的玩家收购整合。

They're being rolled up by bigger players.

Thrasio 之类的公司。

Thrasio and the like.

是的。

Yeah.

但Plugable不断调整产品组合，持续推出新产品并进行创新。

But Pluggables constantly change their product mix and kept bringing out new things and innovating.

所以这才是关键，对吧？

So that's the key, right?

五年前卖站立式桨板的人，如果现在还想用同样的方式继续卖站立式桨板，你知道，这属于商业、资本主义、全球化，再加上亚马逊的叠加，是不可能持续的。

Someone who was selling standup paddleboards five years ago and still wants to be selling stand up paddleboards today in the same way, you know, that's commerce, that's capitalism, it's globalization, plus Amazon on top is it's not gonna be possible.

我最终得出的结论是，这个市场上存在问题。

The conclusion I kinda came to was like, there's a problem there in marketplace.

我认为亚马逊会以他们自己的方式足够好地解决这个问题，我对亚马逊并不太担心。

I do think Amazon will probably fix it enough, in their Amazon way, and I'm not too worried about Amazon.

但这让我思考，首先，我并不是股东，但对Thrasio这类模式以及整合卖家的看法没那么乐观了。

But it did make me think, a, not that I'm a shareholder or anything, but less bullish on the Thrasio type model and aggregating sellers.

你以前只是个普通商品，现在却成了超级商品。

Like, you were a commodity before, and now you're a super commodity.

而且，你今天现金流的状况不会是明天的状况。

And, like, whatever your cash flow dynamics are today is not gonna be what they are tomorrow.

其次，我也更看好Shopify以及赋能反抗者这一理念，即与亚马逊并存。

And two, just, you know, also more bullish on the Shopify and arming the rebels thesis too existing alongside Amazon.

我同意这一点。

I agree with that.

是的。

Yeah.

亚马逊现在做的事情太多，服务了太多利益相关方，对于那些品牌持有者来说，他们不想参与这种前沿的混乱，只想直接销售，并与客户建立关系。

Amazon's doing so much now and serving so many constituencies that the brand holder who wants no part of this frontier chaos and, you know, wants to sell directly, you know, and have a relationship with their customers.

Shopify 正在满足这一需求，而亚马逊不可能包揽一切。

Shopify is, you know, serving that need, and Amazon kinda can't do it all.

对于正在收听节目的各位，我们现在正与一批我们的有限合伙人实时连线。

For anyone listening to the show right now, we're live on the line with a bunch of our, our LPs live.

所以我们想听听他们提出的一些问题。

So we wanna get to some questions that they have.

但我们需要谈谈大卫引述的贝索斯在2018和2019年期间的判断失误。

But we have to touch on the as David has it in quotes here, the Bezos lapse of judgment in the 2018 and '19 time frame.

你在书中提到的很多内容，我觉得我们没必要再重复了。

And there's so much stuff that you said in the book that I don't think that we need to rehash.

但我确实有个问题想问你：关于直升机飞行、HQ2的直升机停机坪，以及劳伦·桑切斯的兄弟在MBS被黑客攻击和沙特阿拉伯介入的同时泄露的信息，这些事情你都提到了。

But I did have one question for you, which was, of all of the things that you found about the helicopter flying, and the helipads of part of HQ 2, and the insane, like, leak from Lauren Sanchez's brother that was happening simultaneous with the hack from MBS and the Saudi Arabian involvement.

你知道，这种事根本编不出来。

Like, you know, you can't make this stuff up.

在所有这些发现中，有没有哪一点让你特别震惊，觉得‘天哪’？

Was there anything that was, like, original insights that you had found where you're like, oh my gosh.

这一点之前从未被揭露过。

This hadn't been uncovered before.

没有。

No.

我的意思是，里面有很多内容。

I mean, I think there's a lot in there.

你提到了直升机停机坪。

I mean, you mentioned the helipads.

对吧？

Right?

在长岛市和水晶城提出的直升机停机坪请求，是第二总部计划的一部分，这引发了纽约的政治反弹，而亚马逊声称这仅仅是正常的普通企业空中通行需求。

The idea that, yeah, the request for helipads in Long Island City and Crystal City that were part of h q two that instituted a political backlash in New York that Amazon claimed was really just normal ordinary corporate request for aerial access.

贝索斯不仅

And that Bezos, you know, not only

对于一家并不拥有直升机的公司来说。

For for a company that doesn't own helicopters.

对。

Right.

但你知道，我了解到的不仅是贝佐斯在见直升机飞行员劳伦斯·桑切斯，而且当时他还接受了直升机驾驶培训。

Except that Bezos you know, what I found out, not only was he seeing Lawrence Sanchez, who's a helicopter pilot, but he has taken helicopter lessons at the time.

我们得停一下。

We gotta stop for sec.

这到底是怎么回事？

Like, what is up with that?

这人自己差点在直升机事故中丧命。

Like, the dude himself almost died in a helicopter accident.

当然还有科比的事。

Like, obviously, there's Kobe.

他难道不知道坐直升机会死人吗？

Are like, does he not get that people die in helicopters?

而他还在亲自驾驶直升机。

And he's he's flying them.

而且，虽然我查找过飞行员执照，但在任何数据库里都没找到，但我确实知道他上过飞行课。

And, I although I looked for the pilot's license, and I couldn't find it in any any database, but I do know that he took lessons.

我还发现他个人购买了一架贝尔直升机，同时劳伦斯·桑切斯的公司也注册了一架新的贝尔直升机。

And I found that he had personally bought a Bell helicopter and that Lawrence Sanchez's company had also, registered a new Bell helicopter at the same time.

所以我的推测是，他买了属于他和她的两架顶级贝尔直升机。

So my hypothesis, he bought his and hers, beltextron state of the art helicopter.

所以，总之，这里面内容很多。

So, anyway, there's a lot.

我的意思是，这里面信息量很大。

I mean, there's a lot in there.

还有那艘游艇，他正在建造一艘三桅帆船超级游艇，还配了一艘支援游艇来停放直升机，这些内容在书里都是最新披露的。

Well, the yacht, the fact that he's building the super yacht three mast schooner with an accompanying support yacht for the helicopters, that's all fresh in the book.

这花了我大量的调查功夫。

That took a lot of sleuthing.

还有贝佐斯、《国家问询报》和迈克尔·桑切斯之间三方的纷争，桑切斯试图澄清自己被污名化的名声，这些细节也很有意思。

And then little aspects of the three way fight between the National Enquirer, Bezos and his representatives, and, you know, Michael Sanchez trying to clear his sullied name.

然后你提到了穆罕默德·本·萨勒曼，但那和整个事情其实毫无关系。

Then you had MBS, you know, and that really had nothing to do with the whole thing.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，人们可以自己去读。

I mean, people can go read it.

这是书中的第十三章。

It's chapter 13 in the book.

里面有《商业周刊》的摘录。

There's business week excerpts.

这是一个错综复杂、奇怪而荒诞的镜像迷宫般的故事。

It's a tangled, strange, bizarre hall of mirrors saga.

这是难以置信的一章。

It's an unbelievable chapter.

即使你觉得你已经知道很多这个故事了，我还是建议你去买书，读一读第十三章。

Even if you you feel like, I know a lot of this story, I'm not gonna read the go buy the book and read chapter 13.

这个故事本身就已经够疯狂了。

It is such a crazy story completely on its own.

我理解得对吗？他的手机通过WhatsApp被穆罕默德·本·萨勒曼黑入，很可能导致了数据外泄，但这与公众是如何得知这一丑闻的毫无关系。

And do I have it right that his phone via WhatsApp was hacked by Mohammed bin Salman, and that was very likely exfiltrating data, but that has nothing to do with how the public found out about the affair.

第二部分是对的。

The second part is right.

这与《国家问询报》的报道无关，那份报道是有人提供给他们的。

It had nothing to do with the National Enquire story, which was supplied.

在大量法庭案件中提交的证据充分表明，这些证据是由他弟弟提供的。

The evidence filed in the voluminous court cases amply showed the evidence was supplied by the brother.

但我想说，关于沙特方面是否黑入了他的手机，仍然存在一些模糊之处。

But I would say that there's just ambiguity around whether the Saudis hacked his phone.

有一项研究是由贝索斯的私人调查员聘请的一家咨询公司进行的。

There was a study done by a consulting company that Bezos' private investigator hired.

网络安全界对这项研究及其发现持大量怀疑态度。

There's a lot of skepticism in the cybersecurity community about that study and what they found.

所以我不知道，而且我觉得我们可能永远都不会知道。

So I don't know, and I don't know that we'll ever know.

不幸的是，推特上的沙特机器人已经拿我书里写的内容，发起了另一波针对贝索斯的攻击，说他无端指控他们。

And what's unfortunate is that the Saudi bots on Twitter have kind of taken what I wrote in that book to launch another wave of attacks against Bezos, you know, saying that he improperly accused them.

有趣的是，显然沙特政府、王储及其代理人对《华盛顿邮报》和杰夫·贝索斯怀有真正的敌意。

So the the interesting thing is that there is obviously real enmity, you know, from the Saudi government and the crown prince and their agents against the Washington Post and against Jeff Bezos.

这一点毫无疑问是真实的。

So that is unequivocally true.

至于他们是否使用了飞马软件入侵他的手机，顺便说一句，MBS确实给他发过一些非常奇怪的短信，这一点也是真的。

And the question of whether they employed Pegasus software and hacked his phone it's also true, by the way, that MBS was sending him very curious texts.

是的。

Yeah.

这很可疑。

That was suspicious.

等等。

But wait.

我想再补充一点，本。

I just wanted to say one other thing, Ben.

我刚想起来。

I just remembered.

你之前问过，有什么新情况吗？

You you asked, you know, what was new?

我就从远处简单提一下。

And I'll just sort of, like, at a distance refer.

你还记得，这件事的核心是调查者是否获得了明确的照片吗？

You remember that the center of this whole thing was whether the inquirer had acquired explicit photographs?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

自拍照，我们就说到这里吧。

The selfie, we'll just leave it there.

而事实是他们根本没拿到那张照片，他们手里的那张是迈克尔·桑切斯从一个伴游网站上找来的，还冒充成是世界首富的不雅照。

And the fact that they never had it, what they had was a photograph that Michael Sanchez had taken from an escort website and passed off as an explicit photograph of the richest man in the world.

对吧？

Right?

这件事离奇到你根本都想不到，完全编不出来。

And that was one you just can't you cannot make up.

现在想想还挺好笑的。

It was funny.

现在回头看，所有这些当事人都在为一张根本不存在的照片争执不休。

In retrospect, all of these parties were battling over a photograph that actually didn't exist.

这太不可思议了。

That's unbelievable.

我们完全可以专门做一期非商业向的播客来聊这件事。

We could do a whole another podcast that is not a business podcast about this.

不过我确实想问一个偏元层面的问题。

But I I do wanna ask them maybe just a meta question.

报道这件事的感觉怎么样？

What was it like reporting that?

你当时在幕后追踪这个故事的来源，而你自己也是一名记者。

You were kinda going behind the scenes of this story and sources, and you're a journalist yourself.

你有消息来源。

You have source.

当然，你知道保护消息来源的重要性，而你正在努力报道这件事。

Obviously, you know the sanctity of sources, and you're trying to report on this.

与此同时，这里还牵涉到各种法律后果。

Meanwhile, like, there's all sorts of legal ramifications here.

有些人可能会入狱。

People could be going to jail.

那感觉是什么样的？

Like, what was that like?

大卫，我不会骗你。

David, I'm not gonna lie.

这太棒了。

It was awesome.

我是一名商业记者。

I'm a business journalist.

我们报道的是交易。

We're writing about deals.

我们写的是那些通常很刻板、有纪律且枯燥的商人。

We're writing about business people who tend to be scripted and disciplined and boring.

而写关于露骨的自拍、沙特特工、黑客、小报记者和兄弟姐妹的背叛，哦，这太棒了。

And so to write about explicit selfies and Saudi agents and hacks and tabloid journalists and double crossing sibling betrayal, oh, it's great.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

好的。

Alright.

在我们开放提问之前，最后一个问题是，布拉德，自出版以来，你有没有收到过亚马逊、杰夫或任何人的反馈？你有没有获得比书中内容更近期的反馈？

Last question before we sort of open it up to the floor, Brad, is have you heard from Amazon or Jeff or anyone in the book since publishing, and have you gotten any more recent feedback than what you actually wrote in the book?

没有任何官方的回应。

Not anything official.

我认为他们可能从《一切皆可售》事件的后续影响中学到了教训，意识到公开回应只会火上浇油。

And I think they having maybe learned from the aftermath of The Everything Store have realized that to respond publicly would only add oxygen to the fire.

尽管我或许期待戴夫·克拉克发一条推文，或贝索斯在Instagram上回应，甚至祈祷上天能再出现一份麦肯齐的评论，或劳伦·桑切斯的评论，那一定会很棒。

As much as I might hope for a Dave Clark tweet or a Bezos Instagram retort or even praying to the heavens, another Mackenzie review, or a Lauren Sanchez review, that would be awesome.

但我感觉这些都不会发生。

I have a feeling that is not forthcoming.

至于非正式的反馈，整体都很好。

And then, you know, informally, it's the feedback's all been good.

感觉就像一份真实、叙述得当的记录。

It feels like a, you know, a factual account and well told.

所以这都是非正式的反应。

And so that's really informal reaction.

显然，贝索斯没有任何回应，我也不指望会有。

Obviously, nothing from Bezos, nor do I expect to.

到目前为止，我收到的反馈都非常积极。

The response so far that I've gotten has been favorable.

太好了。

That's great.

好了，各位听众。

Okay, listeners.

现在是个绝佳的机会，向大家介绍我们非常兴奋的新赞助商——WorkOS。

Now is a great time to tell you about a new friend of the show we are very excited about, WorkOS.

是的。

Yes.

WorkOS 是一个面向企业的平台，已被 OpenAI、Cursor、Perplexity、Vercel、Plaid 以及数百家其他成功公司采用。

WorkOS is the enterprise ready platform used by OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Vercel, Plaid, and literally hundreds of other winning companies.

那么，这些公司都在用 WorkOS 做什么？

So what are all these companies using WorkOS for?

想象你是一家快速成长的初创公司。

Imagine you're a fast growing startup.

你已经实现了产品与市场的契合，并且收到了大型企业客户的主动关注。

You've got product market fit, and you're getting inbound interest from big enterprise customers.

这非常令人兴奋。

Very exciting.

但接着他们发给你一份安全问卷。

But then they send you their security questionnaire.

是的。

Yep.

这份问卷长达47页，要求看起来像一堆字母缩写。

And it's like 47 pages long with requirements that kinda sound like alphabet soup.

你们支持SAML 2.0吗？

Do you support SAML two dot o?

你们能集成我们的Okta吗？

Can you integrate with our Okta?

你们支持SCIM配置吗？S-C-I-M。

Do you have SCIM provisioning, s c I m?

那RBAC呢？R-B-A-C？

What about RBAC, r b a c?

你心里想，这些缩写到底是什么意思，更别提怎么实现了。

And you're thinking, I have no idea what these acronyms even mean, let alone how to implement them.

所以事情是这样的。

So here's the thing.

这些不是锦上添花的功能。

These are not nice to haves.

这些是交易的拦路虎。

These are deal blockers.

如果没有单点登录，没有SCIM，没有RBAC，没有审计日志，你根本不可能签下企业客户，别无选择。

Without SSO, without SCIM, without RBAC, without audit logs, you simply cannot close enterprise deals, period.

但这些功能都没有让你们的核心产品变得更好。

But none of these features make your core product better.

它们并不能让你的啤酒更好喝，这是我们在这档《Acquired》节目中最爱用的比喻。

They don't make your beer taste better, to use our favorite analogy here on Acquired.

所以，如果你在开发一款设计工具，花六个月时间构建SAML认证，并不会让你的设计工具更强大。

So if you're building like a design tool, spending six months building SAML authentication doesn't make your design tool more powerful.

这就是WorkOS发挥作用的地方。

So this is where WorkOS comes in.

他们为企业的功能打造了类似Stripe的解决方案。

They've built Stripe for enterprise features.

WorkOS将企业认证需求转化为即插即用的API，尽可能地抽象掉不必要的复杂性。

WorkOS turns enterprise authentication requirements into drop in APIs, abstracting away as much unnecessary complexity as possible.

因此，你的团队不必花几个月时间研读SAML规范，而是可以在几分钟内实现企业级单点登录。

So instead of your team spending months reading SAML specs, you can implement enterprise SSO in minutes.

WorkOS负责处理用户配给、权限管理、审计日志——所有企业IT部门要求的必备功能。

WorkOS handles user provisioning, permissions, audit logs, all the checkbox items that enterprise IT requires.

无论你是刚刚起步、想拿下首个企业客户的初创公司，还是已经规模庞大、正在全球扩张的企业，WorkOS都是让你快速达到企业级标准的最快路径。

So whether you are a seed stage company trying to land your first enterprise customer or already big and expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready.

只需访问 workos.com 或通过他们的 Slack 支持发送消息。

Just visit workos.com or just message their Slack support.

他们那里有真正的工程师，会快速回复你的问题。

They have real engineers in there who answer questions fast.

当你联系他们时，告诉他们是本和大卫介绍的。

And when you get in touch, just tell them Ben and David sent you.

好的。

Alright.

那么，有人想先提出第一个问题吗？

Well, anyone, anyone wanna kick us off here with the first question?

洛根，我看到你举手了。

Logan, I see your hand raised.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，顺便为这本书做个推广。

Obviously, give a plug for the book.

读这本书。

Read the book.

我很喜欢。

Loved it.

谢谢你的到来。

Thank you for coming on.

我的问题与娜娜·罗尔有关，她是Alexa的声音。

So my question is related to Nina Rolle, the voice of Alexa.

这个问题更多是关于新闻调查的方法。

And the question is more on the journalistic approach.

基本上，你能否详细说明一下，或者提供一些书中没有提到的细节，比如你是如何找到娜娜·罗尔的？我不确定这个说法是否准确，但你是怎么追踪到她的？

Basically, can you go into more detail or whatever detail you can provide that you didn't include in the book on how you were able to, I don't know if this is the right phrase, hunt Nina Rolle down.

据我所知，相关各方都无法确认她就是Alexa的声音。

She sounds like none of the parties involved can confirm that she's the voice of Alexa.

所以我很想知道，你是如何确认到足以在书中写下她名字的可信度的？

So I was curious if you can basically say how you were able to confirm to the degree of confidence that you put her name in the book.

你是怎么发现她是Alexa的？这个过程是怎样的？

How did you find out that she was Alexa, what was that process?

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢你，洛根。

Thank you, Logan.

我真的很喜欢谈论这个话题。

Definitely love talking about this.

在第一本书里，我找到了贝佐斯的亲生父亲。

It was in the first book, I tracked down Bezos' biological father.

你知道，不幸的是，这次没有更多失散的亲戚可以去追寻了。

You know, unfortunately, there were no more long lost relatives to hunt down in this one.

所以我心想，还有什么秘密可以挖掘呢？

So I thought, well, what, you know, what secrets are there to unearth?

如果你还记得的话，洛根，几年前——大概是2012年左右，Siri的声音被公开了，那位女性名叫苏珊·本内特，她最初甚至可能都不知道自己的声音就是Siri。

And if you remember, Logan, the, the voice of Siri a couple year way back, maybe, like, 2012 was was unveiled, and it was a woman named Susan Bennett who actually hadn't even known maybe early on that she was the voice of Siri.

她之前为另一家公司录制过一个数据集，这家公司后来被Siri收购，接着又被苹果收购。

Like, it was a dataset that she had recorded for another company that had been acquired by Siri, and then acquired by Apple.

所以，我知道并记得，这些合成语音最初都来自配音演员朗读成千上万行的脚本，然后AI再从中生成语音。

And so, you know, I knew and I remembered that, you know, that these synthetic voices start out with voice actors or actresses reciting yards and yards of scripts, and then the AI takes that and and produces a voice.

因此，我把寻找Alexa的声音作为我这本书的一个挑战。

And so, yeah, I just put finding Alexa as one of my challenges for the book.

然后就是去理解这些语音的来源。

And then it was like understanding, you know, where these voices come from.

真正做这件事的录音室其实只有寥寥几家。

There's really only a couple of studios that do it.

亚特兰大有一家叫GM Voices的公司负责为Siri配音。

There's one in Atlanta that produces Siri called GM Voices.

通过联系员工、前员工以及圈内人士，我了解到很可能是GM Voices为Alexa配音的。

And just networking through employees, former employees, and people in the community, I found out that it was likely GM Voices that did Alexa.

接着，我通过GM Voices的人脉找到了一些候选人，并去查阅了他们的网站。

And then networking around GM Voices, I had some candidates, and I went to their websites.

当我找到妮娜·罗尔时（发音与‘trolley’押韵），她的网站上有很多她过去做的配音片段。

And when I got to Nina Rolle, rhymes with trolley, her website, you know, she had a bunch of voiceover clips that she had done in the past.

我记得其中一个是为Mott's苹果酱做的，我想。

I remember one was for Mott's applesauce, I think.

只是播放一下，我就能听出来。

And, you know, just playing it, I could tell.

我放给我的女儿们听，她们说：是的，这听起来很耳熟。

And I played it for my daughters, and they were like, Yeah, that sounds familiar.

然后我给她打了电话，她说她不能和我交谈。

And, you know, and then I called her and she said, you know, she couldn't talk to me.

但这还不是全部。

And that wasn't it.

我之前通过人脉已经大致了解并确认了是她。

I did sort of know and had confirmed that it was her beforehand just through networking.

当亚马逊不愿谈论此事，而她也不愿谈论时，我就更有把握了。

Then when Amazon wouldn't talk about it and she wouldn't talk about it, I had a pretty good signal.

太棒了。

Awesome.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我就说到这儿。

I'll leave it at that.

谢谢，洛根。

Thanks, Logan.

好的。

Alright.

本·格林内尔。

Ben Grinell.

这本书非常有趣。

Super interesting book.

上周，我参加了另一个读书会，读的是《逆向工作》。

Last week, I was part of another book club, and it was for working backwards.

连续两个星期五都很棒。

So two great Fridays in a row.

你对亚马逊做了大量报道，深入挖掘了细节。

You've done so much reporting on Amazon and really dug deep.

所以这是一个两部分的问题。

So two part question.

第一，亚马逊的商业模式中缺少了什么？

One, what is Amazon missing from their business model?

比如，有什么新的机会或收入来源是他们尚未涉足但可以尝试的？

Like, what is a new opportunity or revenue stream that they haven't pursued which they could?

另外，你认为他们应该放弃目前正在进行的哪项业务？

And what's something that you think they should drop that they're currently doing?

你问过那些‘逆向工作’的人这个问题吗？

Did you ask the working backwards guys this question?

顺便提一下。

Well, side note.

那是一个八人的读书会，威尔基也参加了。

So it was like an eight person book club, and Wilkie came to it.

对话非常不同。

Very different conversation.

好的。

Okay.

这可难住我了。

This is gonna challenge me.

缺失的是什么？

What is the thing that is missing?

很难想象亚马逊业务拼图中还缺了什么，对吧？

Hard to imagine what the missing pieces are, right, in the Amazon quilt of businesses.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们现在几乎什么都在做。

Because they are sort of doing everything right now.