第53集：在广告技术领域打造职业生涯

欢迎收听《广告科技英雄》，这是C tag出品的原创播客，C tag是全球神经情境广告的领导者。

Welcome to AdTech Heroes, an original podcast by C tag, the global leader in neurocontextual advertising.

如果你在广告科技行业工作，想从顶尖行业领袖那里获取真正的见解，那这个节目就是为你准备的。

If you work in AdTech and are looking for real insights from top industry leaders, then this is the show for you.

我是你的主持人，瓦莱特。

I'm your host, Wallett.

让我们来见见今天的广告科技英雄，深入聊聊吧。

Let's meet today's AdTech Hero and dig in.

欢迎。

Welcome.

欢迎。

Welcome.

我是你的主持人，乔恩·瓦莱特。

I'm your host, Jon Wallett.

欢迎收听《广告科技英雄》，这是C Tech出品的播客，今天的内容非常劲爆。

Welcome to AdTech Heroes, a podcast by C Tech, and we have a juicy one today.

今天的节目，我请到了了不起的诺布尔斯·克劳福德。

In today's episode, I'm seated with the amazing Nobles Crawford.

他是欧莱雅公司品牌参与部门的助理副总裁。

He is the assistant vice president of corporate brand engagement here at L'Oreal.

而且这期节目实际上是在欧莱雅的办公室里录制的。

And this episode is actually being taped at the L'Oreal office.

嘿。

Hey.

谢谢你们邀请我来，还有，欧莱雅的杯子真是太棒了。

Thanks for having me in, and well, kudos to the amazing L'Oreal cups.

那里你

There you

致敬。

Shout out.

致敬。

Shout out.

我觉得今天的播客会很有意思。

And today's an exciting podcast, I think.

我们要聊一些我知道你特别热衷的话题。

We're gonna be talking about some topics that I know you're very passionate about.

咱们认识很久了。

You and I go way back.

我刚开始职业生涯的时候，你是我最早遇到的人之一。

You know, I started up my career, and you were one of the first people I met over the course of the...

我就不提具体多少年了。

I'm gonna leave the number out of it.

就说在这个行业待了十多年吧。

Let's call it ten years plus of being in this industry.

今天我们要聊的包括职业经验、行业演变，还有广告技术的发展。

So some of the things that we're gonna be talking about today is, you know, just career lessons, the evolution of the industry, of AdTech.

然后我们还会深入探讨一些话题，比如在现在这个AI驱动的行业里，创意所扮演的角色。

And then we're gonna lean into areas like some of the more things revolving the role of creativity in the new AI driven industry that we're in.

但更重要的是，我觉得我们今天讨论的核心，就像是给年轻人一份指南，关于我们身处的这个不断变化的行业。

But more importantly, I think a lot of what we are theming today around is like the young person's guide to this ever evolving industry that we're in.

我觉得凭我们俩的经验，有很多所谓的“智慧”可以分享，尤其是你比我更有发言权。

You know, I think collectively with our experience, there's a lot of, quote unquote, wisdom, I think, more you than I can share.

那我们不如就从……开始吧？

So why don't we kick things off with...

你周末过得怎么样？

How was your weekend?

很好。

Great.

是的，莫兰。

Yeah, Moran.

精神焕发，准备好和你一起录这期播客了。至于说智慧，你比我多？得了吧。

Friendly refreshed, ready to do this podcast with you, and more wisdom than you can share my butt.

你什么都见过了，别谦虚了。

Like, you have seen it all, so stop.

我觉得到了这个点，我们就从播客变成编剧、剧作家了，直接自己写关于这个行业的剧本。

I think this is the point where we go from podcasts to, like, screenwriters, playwrights, we just write our own scripts about the industry.

不错。

Cool.

确实。

It's true.

可能有些保密协议要签，但值得考虑。

Probably have some NDAs out there, but something to consider.

不过我们先从你的职业生涯说起吧。

But let's start off with your career.

跟我们讲讲，最初是什么让你对广告产生了兴趣，你又是怎么一步步做到品牌互动副总裁的？

You know, tell us about, you know, what first sparked your interest in advertising, and how did you come to be, you know, the assistant vice president of brand engagement?

真正让我对广告产生兴趣的，是意识到广告能够推动文化。

What really sparked my interest in advertising was just the understanding that advertising can move culture.

能做到这一点的行业并不多。

There's not a lot of industries that can do that.

而且我意识到我很小的时候，大概12岁吧。

And I realized I was pretty young, when I was about 12.

很多行业，比如法律和政治，当然是从立法和法律的角度来推动文化。

A lot of industries, legal and political, moves culture from a legislative perspective and a legal perspective, of course.

金融可能通过金钱来影响，但那是另一种影响文化的方式。

And then finance might move it from money, but that has a different way of impacting culture.

而广告，直接触及根本。

Advertising, you get straight to the root.

我之所以想真正推动文化，是因为我发现人们渴望聚在一起。

And one of the reasons why I wanted to really get culture moving, if you will, is because I found that, you know, people are begging to be together.

不管我们是谁，不管我们有什么不同，我们都喜欢在一起，享受美好时光，互相鼓励。

And, you know, no matter, you know, who we are, all of our differences, what have you, we do enjoy being together with good times, you know, lifting each other up.

我觉得这就是人性。

And that's just the human condition I feel.

而市场营销和广告可以在一种文化共识下把人们聚在一起，让社会变得更好。

And marketing and advertising can bring people together underneath a code of culture, if you will, to better our society.

我很早就看到了这种影响。

And I saw that impact very early on.

所以我就去了霍夫斯特拉大学。

And so I went to Hofstra.

我去那里学的是视频电视商务，那时候是2001年，数字营销其实还不存在。

I went there for video television business, which was, at the time, and we're talking 2001 here, digital marketing didn't even exist really at the time.

但我去那里是为了学习如何制作电视节目、电影，还有剪辑、讲故事这些。

But I went in there to understand how to produce television shows, and movies, and editing, and storytelling and all of that.

毕业后，我进了奥美，具体来说是奥美旗下的Neo，那是奥美和MATHA旗下最早的数字代理公司之一。

And then once I got out, I fell into Ogilvie, or Neo to Ogilvie specifically, which was one of the first digital agencies part of Ogilvie and MATHA.

他们从群邑分出来的，你应该还记得很清楚。

They split from Mindshare, as you very well remember.

因为你当时是在MEC还是什么的，对吧？

Because you were MEC or something, right?

不是。

No.

我以前在IPG或者DraftFCB工作。

I was historically IPG or draft FCB.

哦，这样啊。

Oh, okay.

那是老牌公司了。

That was old school.

是啊，这些老名字现在都不存在了。

Yeah, all these legacy names that don't really exist anymore.

所以我从那里开始，然后慢慢意识到数字营销这行有搞头。

And so I started there, and then I started to realize there's something to this digital thing.

那是2005、2006年的事了。

This is back in 2006, 2005.

我当时就想，算了，我就把一辈子献给数字营销吧，因为挺有意思的。

And I was like, Look, I'm just gonna dedicate my life to digital marketing, because it's fun.

而且做这行的人都很酷。

You know, the people are really cool.

这是个年轻的行业。

It's a young business.

在我的职业生涯中，我从数字媒体策略师转到整合媒体，也就是跨渠道媒体策划，再到传播策略，这个角色把跨渠道媒体策划和创意结合在一起。

And, you know, through the course of my career, I'd gone from, you know, digital media strategist to integrated media, which is, you know, cross channel media planning, into communication strategy, which kind of brings them together cross channel media planning and creative.

然后有一段时间，我创办了自己的初创公司。

And then, for a little while, I had my own startup that I created.

那家公司叫Peeps Out，做的是酒吧和餐厅里的直播。

It was a startup called Peeps Out, and it was livestreams in bars and restaurants.

我们当时还是全球最大的，但我在2016年把它关掉了。

We are still the largest in the world, but I closed that down back in 2016.

然后

Then

对，我记得那时候经常用那个。

I Yeah, got back in remember using that quite

经常用。

a lot.

我当时

I was

在那边工作，那真是个很棒的服务。

working New was a great service.

后来我把它关了，因为作为初创公司的CEO，如果没拿到B轮融资之类的，有了第一个孩子后根本养不起。

Then I closed that down because being the CEO of a startup doesn't pay when you're having your first child if you don't get to a certain series B or something.

所以我又回到了这个行业。

So I got back in the industry.

我再次做起了整合媒体策略，因为在那里我能真正掌控信息如何传播，当然，是和我的同事们一起。

I went into integrated media strategy again, because that's where I can really kind of control how the message gets out, with my colleagues, of course.

然后，那还是在代理公司那边，后来有一天，有个大客户找我去负责他们旗下品牌的内容和社交策略，比如Lysol、Eric、Finish、Resolve、Woolite。

And then, that was still agency side, and then one day, record thank user picked me up to run their content and social strategy for Lysol, Eric, Finish, Resolve, Woolite.

那是在COVID这个小事发生之前。

That was before a little thing called COVID.

所以，我从2018年到2022年都在那里，经历了COVID之前、期间和之后。

And so, I was there from 2018 to 2022, before, during, and after COVID.

从代理公司转到客户方，不仅文化差异大，而且在那段时间里，Lysol对全球的影响也让我学到了很多。

It was a really huge learning, you know, switching from not only the agency to the client side in terms of the different culture within, but also during that time, the impact that Lysol had on the planet.

是的。

Sure.

这是我每天工作时都肩负的责任。

You know, that's the responsibility I brought every day to work.

我在那里做了很多出色的工作。

And I did a lot of great work there.

欧莱雅注意到了这一点，他们内部需要新的思路。

L'Oreal sniffed it out, needed some new thinking internally.

我之前没有美容行业的经验，所以他们在2022年聘请我负责华伦天奴和普拉达的媒体工作。

I didn't have any beauty experience, and so they hired me back in 2022 to run their media for Valentino and Prada.

所以，我之前确实没有美容行业的经验。

And so I didn't have any beauty experience.

当然也没有奢侈品的经验，但我有很棒的同事一起合作。

I certainly didn't have any luxury experience, but I had great people I worked with.

当时录用我的那位女士，也就是现在负责奢侈品的CDMO劳拉·阿扎里亚，她是个非常厉害的人。她跟我说，我们需要把这种全新的视角从外部引入进来。

And the woman that hired me, who's now the CDMO of Luxe, Laura Azaria, amazing woman, she was like, look, this new point of view is something we need to bring from the outside in.

我确实在香水和彩妆领域帮了大忙，重新定义了我们的数字营销方式，说实话，也包括我们跨渠道的整合营销。

And I really helped for fragrances and makeup kind of reinvent the way that we do our digital marketing, and honestly, our cohesive cross channel marketing too.

我们为这些品牌做了很多以前历史上从未做过的事情，尤其是在香水方面。

We did a lot of things with those brands that were historically not necessarily the case, especially in fragrances.

从那以后，我就一直从事这方面的工作，到现在大概三年了。

And then from there, I've been doing that for about three years.

在欧莱雅内部，我们喜欢调动人员，让大家接触公司的不同板块，积累经验。

Internally at L'Oreal, we like to move people around to get different pieces of the company and learning.

所以他们把我调到了传播团队。

And so they brought me onto the communications team.

我在那位首席传播官手下工作，现在主要负责欧莱雅的企业品牌，以及我们在各个舞台上的品牌形象呈现。

So I worked for the chief communications officer now on his team, and now I'm really responsible for L'Oreal corporate brand, and where we touch down when it comes to our stages.

我们会有一些核心的传播议题，比如可持续发展、包容性招聘等，而我主要是在市场上推动这些话题的讨论。

And so, we have certain communications lines that we speak about, like sustainability, inclusive hiring practices, and I help really kind of further that conversation in the market.

有意思。

Interesting.

听你讲这些，我一直觉得特别有意思，也吸引我来跟你聊。

I mean, just by listening to your story, I think what's always I felt was interesting and compelled me to...

就是你的经历挺多元的。

Towards this conversation with you is it's quite eclectic.

而且我觉得很多时候，尤其是刚入行的人，容易觉得自己被局限住了。

And I think a lot of times, especially people coming up in the industry, they feel pigeonholed.

他们会想，如果我只是……

They're like, well, if I just...

只做这一件事。

I do this one thing.

如果我只做程序化广告，那我也就只能干这个了。

If I'm just doing programmatic, that's all I could do.

或者只做策划。

I'm just doing planning.

但你证明了事实并非如此。

But you've proven that's not the case.

你见识过这个行业的方方面面，包括各种瑕疵。

You've seen every shade and blemish of the industry.

是什么内在动力让你拥有那种自由，或者说灵活性，能够在这些角色之间自如切换？

What was the powering mechanism inside you to have that that freedom, if you will, or the flexibility to go interchangeably between these roles?

你既做过销售端，也做过代理端，还做过品牌端，是什么激励你做到这一点的？

You know, you've seen, you know, you could say sales side, agency side, brand side, like, what inspired you to be able to do that?

这仅仅是因为你的成长经历，还是行业中有一些影响因素推动你走到这一步？

Was it just how you've been brought up, or was there, you know, influencing factors in the industry that drove you there?

哇，这个问题问得好。

Well, damn, that's a great question.

首先，我觉得是人。

I would say first is the people.

这个行业里的人真的让我留在了这个行业。

The people in this industry have really kept me in this industry.

每个人都非常有干劲。

Everyone's really hungry.

每个人都很兴奋。

Everyone's excited.

只要敢想，就能做到。

If you can dream it, you can do it.

所以这就是让我一直留在营销行业的原因。

And so that's what's kept me in marketing as a whole.

但说到跨领域媒体传播策略，真正帮到我的是跨职能训练。

But when it comes to crosshell media communication strategy, what's kind of really helped me out in that aspect is cross functional training.

这其实是我自己主动去做的。

And I kind of did that myself.

我自己承担了这个任务。

I took that on.

你必须了解超出你专业范围的东西。

You have to know more than what your expertise entails.

这样一来，你就能把自己放到其他可能的机会位置上，这些机会你可能自己都没意识到，也许别人看到了，或者是你自己创造出来的。

In doing so, you're gonna be able to put yourself in other positions of opportunity that you might not even know, that maybe some other people see, or maybe you create.

但拥有跨职能的职业路径非常重要。

But having a cross functional career path is super important.

当我冒险的时候，那时候确实有风险，2016年我在三星工作，转向媒体传播策略，当时在美国，传播策略还不是一个真正的职业。

When I took the risk, and there was a risk at a time, in 2016 when I was working on Samsung, to move into communication strategy for media, communication strategy in The US wasn't really a career yet.

那时候，传播策略更多是在欧洲的那些代理公司里。

It was more in Europe communication strategy at those agencies.

所以，加入那个团队，并在那段时间领导三星手机的团队，确实是个冒险，因为如果公司遇到困难什么的，我的职位其实不太能直接产生收入，因为我不掌控预算。

And so, going on that team, and leading the team for Samsung phones during that time, it was a risk because if the company goes through hardships or whatever, my particular position wasn't really billable because I didn't control the money.

那是媒体团队的事，我得和媒体团队以及客户合作。

That would be media folks, and I have to work with the media folks and the client.

所以，那是个很大的冒险，但通过这次冒险，我学到了更多关于客户处理事情的方式，比如如何与创意代理合作，尽管我之前也来自几家创意代理公司。

And so, that was a major risk, but in doing that risk, I learned so much more about what the client's approach is to things, like how to work with creative agencies, even though I'd come from a couple creative agencies.

所以，那种训练让我能够胜任现在这个客户方的职位，在这个职位上，我能为所服务的公司提供更多灵活的支持。

And so, like, that kind of training set me up to get in this client side job where I'm a lot more flexible in terms of what I can give to the companies I work for.

那你觉得……

So what would be your...

我想接着聊聊我们之前……

You know, I wanna now lean into some of that conversation we we...

在最初聊天时提到的关于给新人的建议。

In our initial chat about, you know, advice for newcomers.

对于那些想转型或挑战新角色的新晋媒体策划和投资人员，你会给他们什么建议？

You know, what would you tell the up and coming media planner investment person that wants to move into or challenge themselves into new roles?

他们应该怎么做呢？

Like, how do they go about doing that?

是不是就像跳槽那么简单，还是需要先积累一些相关的教育背景？

Is it just as simple as, like, take a leap, or is it, like, some education they have to put under their belt?

比如……

Like, what...

还是说要靠人脉圈子？

Or is it community?

你的简历里有些东西你没提，我觉得挺重要的，应该分享一下。

There's something about about your resume that you kinda left out that I think is really important to share.

而且，你一直是纽约广告营销团队212的重要成员，对吧。

Also, you've been a big part of the New York advertising marketing team, you know, two one two Yep.

很多年了。

For many years.

你觉得这些机构还在帮助年轻一代成长吗？

Do you feel like those institutions are still helping the younger generation come up?

或者，你多聊聊这个。

Or, Talk a little bit about that.

当然。

Absolutely.

向212纽约致敬。

Shout out to two twelve NYC.

他们是纽约数字媒体和互动行业从业者的一个很棒的组织。

They're an amazing organization for folks in the digital media and interactive industry here in New York.

对，你提了一个很好的观点。

Yeah, you bring up a great point.

我给刚开始从事这个行业的人的建议就是，去做那些事情。

My advice I would give to folks starting out their career in this is to do exactly that.

参加一些课外活动。

Sign up for extracurricular activities.

可以是体育活动，或者和公司相关的活动。

That could be sports or something with your company.

也可以是像212或广告俱乐部这样的组织。

That could be an organization like two twelve or Ad Club.

这样的组织有很多。

There's a whole bunch of them.

参加专业组织的晚宴，认识新朋友，这样你就能开始发现外面真正有什么。

Go to dinners for professional organizations, meet new people, and then that way you can start to discover what's kind of really out there.

我现在看到的是，我们的行业正在从组织结构、财务结构上重新塑造自己，而且真的没有人知道这些变化最终会落在哪里。

What's happening right now, I'm seeing, is that our industry is starting to remake itself from an organizational standpoint, a financial standpoint, and really no one knows where those chips are gonna land.

这会是一个持续多年的演变过程。

It's gonna be a multi year evolution here.

所以，不仅要建立你的人脉，而且这不是那种“天哪，我需要工作，所以让我找这个人”的人脉。

And so, not only building your personal network, and it's not a network for, Oh my gosh, I need a job, so let me holler at this person.

但说实话，从别人那里学习他们如何度过逆境，学习别人如何在公司内部自然地或通过努力改变职业，这些都会对你有帮助。

But honestly, learning from other people in terms of how they've gone through adversity, learning from other people of how they've changed their jobs internally, organically, not, or with a concerted effort, that's just gonna help you out.

而很多这样的对话就发生在这些课外活动中。

And a lot of that conversation happens at these extracurricular type of activities.

所以我要重新解释一下。

So I'm gonna I'm gonna retranslate that too.

你确实需要建立自己的个人品牌。

You kinda have to build your own personal brand.

对。

Yes.

就是这样，真的。

It's like, come on.

对，Jon。

Yes, Jon.

在纽约或者这个行业的任何地方，你很难找到一个不认识Nobles Crawford的人。

It's very hard to find a person in the New York or anywhere in this industry that doesn't know who Nobles Crawford is.

我觉得这更多是因为我的名字比较独特，像我这样的人不多。

I mean, I chalk that more up to to my name because there's not many of me.

这个名字起得真好。

It's a great name.

哦，那个……

Oh, I mean, it it...

首先，光听这个词，感觉就挺高尚的。

First of all, it sounds noble just just by the nature of any word.

说到这儿，我同意你的看法。我觉得我们刚起步那会儿挺幸运的，当时大家更倾向于推动这件事，给人的感觉也是这样。我不想代表年轻一代说话，毕竟我只是从旁观者的角度看到了一些情况。

So to that point, I agree with you, and I think that we were very fortunate at the time that we started out where there there was more of a push, it felt like, and I don't wanna speak on behalf of younger generations as a, you know, as a representative of them, but just from seeing from the inside of the outside in.

那时候，无论是个人主动学习，还是领导层鼓励大家参与你提到的那些团体，都更有动力。

It was more of a push for learning and a push from leadership to get involved with some of these groups that you're talking about.

现在情况变了……

And now it's set...

我现在的感觉是……

The sense I'm getting is it...

现在轮到他们去做了。

It's on them now to do it.

确实是这样。

It very much is.

因为我觉得那时候，这有点像是个新鲜事物。

Because I felt like back then, it was kind of like the shiny object.

对。

Yep.

就像，哦，我想参与这些事情，因为这是个巨大的机会，是的。

It was like, oh, I wanna be included in these things because this is such, you know, a massive opportunity Yeah.

去拓展人脉、学习、成长。

To network, to learn, to grow.

但现在，不是说它过时了，而是它变了。

But now, not to say it's aged, but it's changed.

它变了，是因为它成长了。

It's changed because it's grown.

数字行业，我们刚开始的时候，甚至还是……

I mean, the digital industry, when we first started out, was even still...

我相信我们这里有些观众，从90年代就入行了，但即使在21世纪初，这仍然是一个非常小的行业。

I mean, I'm sure we got some other folks on here watching, have been in since the '90s, but even in the early aughts, it was still a very small industry.

我们当时都因为数字行业而有点愤愤不平。

We all had a chip on our shoulder from digital.

我们几乎不得不为这个世界，当然也为我们的国家，去实践这个新媒体。

We kinda had to make a practice out of this new medium for the world, certainly for our country.

所以我们知道，只有通过社区，我们才能提高自己在媒体和营销领域中的权威和重要性。

And so, we knew that only by community could we then raise our authority and importance within the media sphere and marketing sphere.

但现在我们到了这里，这个行业有数十亿美元，甚至可能上万亿美元。

But now we're here, many billions of dollars, maybe even 1,000,000,000,000 something in this business.

现在它已经变成了一种商品，同时也稍微自我净化了一些，不同领域有好有坏。

And now that it's become a commodity, it's also sanitized itself a little bit, for better and for worse in different areas.

你说得对，我觉得现在探索这个行业的责任更多落在我们个人身上，而不是组织真正在背后支持。

To your point, I see a lot of the onus to kind of explore the industry is more on us individually versus your organizations really backing up.

尽管有组织上的支持，但肯定不像以前那样了。

Even though there's organizational support, it's certainly not like it used to be.

所以你必须在这里找到自己的路，打造自己的新品牌。

So you have to find your own path here and make your own brand new.

而且听你之前说的，212，我觉得在那种管理层面做得非常好。

And listen to your point earlier, two one two, I think, doing a fantastic job in that level of stewardship.

但这又回到了，这些关系在建立人脉和驾驭科技世界中有多重要，你知道吗？

But it goes back to, like, how important are these relationships in networking and navigating the tech world, you know?

你觉得新时代的人脉建立是什么样的？

What do you think is the new age of networking?

我觉得你——对。

I feel like you're Yeah.

你接触面很广，不仅在欧莱雅，在你的品牌里也是。

On the pulse of a lot of your exposure, not just at L'Oreal, but in your, you know, brand.

你能经历和看到的，比我说的要多得多。

You get to experience and see a lot more than I say I would.

你觉得年轻一代是怎么建立人脉的？

How do you see that the younger generations are networking?

是什么……

What is...

他们是用科技来推动这个，还是你觉得现在是什么情况？

Are they using technology to power that, or what do you think is happening?

说实话，我对我们行业的未来非常担忧。

You know, I'll be quite honest, I'm very afraid for the future of our industry.

我觉得我们大家都开始自欺欺人了，以为数字化能解决我们世界上的沟通和关系问题。我认为我们行业里已经出现了这种现象，很多人写邮件时都不讲礼貌了。

I think that we've all started drinking our own Kool Aid here, thinking that digital's gonna solve some of the communicative and relationship problems of our world, And I think a microcosm of that has been happening in our industry, where a lot of folks don't have courtesy when writing emails anymore.

他们不……

They don't...

我们说打个电话吧，但他们不愿意跟主动联系他们的新朋友交流。

You know, we say pick up the phone, but they don't talk to new people that reach out to them.

以前有座机的时候，我总会接电话。

I always picked up my phone when we had desk phones.

我总会接电话。

I always picked up my phone.

我总会回邮件，到现在也还是这样。

I always answered emails, and I still do that to this day.

我尽量做到。

I mean, I try.

以后我会更忙，但我真的每周都努力认识新朋友，诸如此类。

I'm gonna get a lot more now, but I really do try to meet new people every week, so on and so forth.

我觉得现在这种情况不太发生了，因为大家觉得看看别人的Instagram或LinkedIn，就能了解对方，然后决定要不要跟那个人聊。

I feel that's not really happening because people feel like they can look at someone's Instagram or look at someone's LinkedIn, know who they are, decide if they want to talk with that person or not.

所以我在我们行业里一些新晋的年轻人身上经常看到这种情况。

And so I see that a lot in some of the newer folks in our industry coming up.

我真的很担心我们的未来，因为市场营销、媒体和广告都是关于建立关系的。

I'm really afraid for our future in that because marketing and media and advertising is about relationship building.

无论是企业内部，还是与客户之间，而且我们自己也是客户。

Either it's within the business or it's with the customer, and we ourselves are customers.

我们必须知道如何面对面或群体性地与人互动。

We have to know how to interact with people on a face to face basis or in groups.

社交媒体并不能给我们这些。

Social media just does not give us that.

社交媒体虽然有其好处，但人们现在把它当作拐杖，用来逃避建立真正的关系。

It's more expedient, even though there's a reason why it's great to have social media, but people, I think, use it as a crutch now to get out and not find their own relationships.

完全同意。

Could not agree more.

屏幕变成了一个挡箭牌。

It's that screen becomes a deflecting device.

就像，哦，好吧。

It's like, oh, well.

前几天我参加了一个营销晚宴，除了我之外，所有人都在看手机。

I was at a dinner in marketing the other day, and literally everyone was on their phone except for me.

我不会看我的手机……

I do not look at my phone with...

这是你该给予别人的尊重。我当时就想，这到底是怎么回事？

I mean, that is the respect you give to And you I was like, what what is going on here?

我有很多类似的经历可以分享。

I I mean, how many stories I could share with that experience

天哪。

Oh, my god.

你知道吗？

Know?

这让我很受不了。

Kills me.

我让他们把手机放下。

I I asked them to put your phone down.

这必须成为我们彼此互动方式的一部分。

I mean, it has to become part of the way that we interact with each other.

到那时，这几乎成了一种尊重的表现。

It's almost like a sign of respect at that point.

是的。

Yes.

不过，对，我同意。

But, yeah, I I agree.

我觉得这引出了我们接下来想讨论的话题，就是人工智能。

And I think, you know, that leads to a next topic that we want to discuss, which was, you know, AI.

因为这一切都是相互关联的。

Because all this becomes interlinked here.

当然。

Of course.

而且，我觉得现在一提到这个词，尤其是在我们这个行业，背后好像得有雷声，像是有力量一样，比如“咚咚咚”。

And also, feel like when you say that word nowadays, you know, especially in our industry, there has to be like thunder, like, empowering behind you, like, dun dun dun.

所以听起来挺吓人的，对吧？

So very threatening, you know?

但我喜欢这种感觉。

I love it.

尤其是对那些每天都在接触这项技术的人来说。

Especially with, you know, folks, you know, that are engaged with that technology on a daily basis.

那你觉得……

So how do you see...

咱们回到创意这个话题吧。

Let's go back to, like, creativity.

你觉得AI如何支持——不是取代，而是支持——营销、广告以及与人连接中的创意？

How do you see AI supporting, not replacing, but supporting creativity in marketing and advertising and, you know, connectivity to people?

说到创意和AI，这确实是个很特别的领域，因为这里面有工作效率、创意、各种可能的机器人，还有媒体规划工具等等。

So, I mean, when it comes to creative and AI, and, like, that's a very particular part of it because you have workforce efficiency, you have, you know, creative, you have, any kind of, other kind of bots you might have, or media planning tools or what have you.

但单就创意而言，它肯定会给这个行业的创意部分带来翻天覆地的变化，影响之大我们现在还无法预料，既有好的方面，也有非常艰难的方面。

But for creative specifically, it's definitely gonna impact the industry, the creative part of this industry crazily, in ways we don't even know yet, in great ways and in some very tough ways.

困难的地方，是的，做创意的人会变少，因为电脑就能做了。

Tough ways, yeah, it's gonna be less folks making creative because computers can do it.

这已经在发生了。

That's already happening.

过去几年我们其实已经经历过了。

We've already been here for the last couple of years.

而且，AI其实并不会真正创造。

It also could, because also, AI doesn't really create.

它只是根据给它的输入来生成东西。

It only kind of manifests from its inputs that it's given.

所以，人类还是有空间去创造，而且不仅仅是靠提示词。

So, there's still going to be room here for humans to create, and even beyond just prompting.

我们才是创造文化的人。

I mean, we are the ones that create culture.

我喜欢说，我们的大脑是地球上最快的计算机，没有之一。

And what I like to say is, our brain is the fastest computer on the planet, period.

而且，我们的大脑能想出的东西比AI多得多，尤其是因为AI只是重复已有的东西。

And by far, Our brain can come up with more stuff than AI can, especially because AI just regurgitates.

所以，我们仍然需要人们为AI提供新的体验输入，以激发创造力。

So, we're still gonna have a need for people to feed it those inputs of new experiences for creative.

不过，这些人仍然需要知道如何冒险。

However, those people still need to know how to take risks.

在AI面前，冒险是什么样子，我还不清楚。

What risk looks like with AI, I don't really know what that looks like yet.

这将是最大的问题，创造力来源于冒险。

That's gonna be the biggest question, creative comes from taking risks.

那么，通过这个系统，冒险又是什么样的呢？

What does that risk look like going through that system?

所以，这就是我...

So that's what I'm...

你的意思是，AI会不会让我们的表达方式变得千篇一律？

Your point is, is AI just gonna sanitize the way that we message?

因为我们只是在数据之上重复数据。

Because we're just redundancy of data on top of data.

没错。

Exactly.

人们会变得懒惰。

People get lazy.

对。

Exactly.

但你处在一个非常独特的位置，因为你合作的品牌和你工作的公司，你可以参与其中，你是那种文化的一部分。

But you're at you're at a very unique position with the brands that you're working with, the company you work for, where you can be a part of that, you you're a part of that culture.

当然。

Sure.

所以你的意思是，广告中仍然有灵魂。

So to your point, what you're saying is there's still a soul in advertising.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

灵魂仍然与人类相连。

The soul is still connected to humans.

所以我们必须深入挖掘，我认为很多人都在说的一个观点是，AI 是用来增强的，而不是压制的。

So we have to tap into, you know, and I think this is the narrative that a lot of people are saying is that, you know, AI is meant to amplify, not suppress.

但接下来我们暂时抛开创意和品牌互动这些方面。

But then let's take that step away from just creativity and brand engagement, things like that.

那这将会如何……

And how is that going to...

我们如何利用 AI 来重新引入广告业的灵魂？

How do we take AI to then reintroduce the soul of the advertising industry?

换句话说，我们之前讨论的话题，或者其中一个要点，就是人们在建立人脉时遇到的问题。

So in other words, our topic earlier, or one of our talking points earlier was all about the issues that people are having to network

或者说，不建立人脉的问题。

Or not networking.

AI在这方面能起作用吗？还是说，这其实得靠你自己主动出击、去行动？

Does AI play a role in that, or is it simply like get off your butt and...

是不是这就是人类因素发挥作用的地方？

Is that where the human element comes into play?

我平时不是个悲观的人，所以说实话，讲这个我心里挺不是滋味的，但是……

I mean, I'm not usually a pessimistic person, so I guess it kinda pains me to say this, but I I...

你没法靠AI把大家聚在一起。

You can't bring people together with AI.

如果我们指望靠电脑或服务来把人聚在一起，而不是我们自己主动去努力、去找回以前那种状态，那是不可能的。

If we're relying on a computer or a service to bring people together, more so than we're doing or trying to get back what we were, that's not gonna happen.

真正的联系只能来自面对面交流，比如跟人约见面，亲自到场参与。

That only comes from being face to face with people, making appointments with people, being and showing up there.

你没法通过电脑获得爱，说到底，这些都是同情、爱和尊重的体现，光靠AI帮你达成这些是做不到的。

You can't get love through a computer, and really, these are all just shades of compassion and love and respect, and you're not gonna get that through AI helping you get there.

不过，一旦你建立了这种连接，AI倒是可以帮你们进一步加深关系。

Now, it could, once you do establish that kind of connection, it could help further that relationship.

比如，也许，它能把一群人聚在一起，或者不管他们用什么平台。

Like, maybe, like, it brings groups of people together or what have you or whatever platform they've got.

我相信已经有人在研究这个了，甚至已经做出来了。

I'm sure someone's working on that already has it.

但说到底，你必须面对面地跟人相处才能建立关系，就这么简单。

But, like, at the end of the day, you have to be in front of someone to build a relationship, period.

对。

Yep.

我同意。

I agree with that.

我同意。

I agree with that.

AI 不能塑造你的个性。

AI can't build your personality.

没错。

No.

而且它根本不在乎你的大脑。

And it doesn't give a shit about your brain.

你的大脑只是个输入设备。

Your brain's just an input.

完全同意。

100%.

好，那行。

So, okay.

那我们今天的讨论也差不多要收尾了，通常我们会在最后问几个问题。

So we're winding down a little bit of our discussion today, and usually we end the conversation with a few questions.

我有些新想法想抛出来，好。

And I'm floating some new ideas out of how Alright.

那我就从这个问题开始吧。

So I'm gonna start with this one.

对于我们现在所处的行业阶段，有什么事情让你特别兴奋，又有什么事情让你特别恼火？

What is one thing that really excites you about the stage that we're in, where we are in the industry, and something that just makes you rage?

而且‘愤怒’这个词有点难解释，或者

And rage is a tough word or

让人换个角度去思考。

Makes you kind of think in a different way.

愤怒没问题。

Rage is fine.

我先说让我生气的事，最后再提点积极的。

I'll start with the rage, because I'll end on a good note.

其实我们刚才聊的，

Really what we were talking about.

这个行业里缺乏那种人与人之间的真实关系，这点真的让我很痛心，因为我亲眼见过我们能有多好。

The lack of personal relationship in the industry, that kills me, because I've seen how great we can be.

回想2006年，甚至到2013年那会儿，我们在这个行业里还是一个紧密的整体。

Back in 2006, so I would say even 2013, we were a unit in this industry.

但后来经过所谓的‘净化’，加上这种集团化模式的兴起等等，因为广告公司原本才是那个跳动的心脏所在。

And then with the sanitization, with the group model and everything like that, because the agencies is where that heart was pumping.

但现在更多是为了钱，而不是为了社区。

But now it's more about the money than it is about the community.

这才是让我难受的地方，我希望潮流能重新回到社区。

That's what kills me, and I hope the pendulum swings back into the community again.

我觉得对我们行业来说非常乐观和好的一点是，有点奇怪，就是我们手边的技术。

What I really find very optimistic and great for our industry is, it's kinda strange, the technology that we have at our fingertips.

真的，在这些墙内你可以梦想任何东西，我们都能实现它。

Literally, you can dream anything in these walls, and we can make it.

现在什么都能做出来。

Anything can be made now.

所以，这对我们来说是一个很好的机会来重塑营销模式，因为我们手边有这么多以前没有的东西来创造新的未来。

And so, it's a really great opportunity for us to reinvent the marketing paradigm, because we have so many things at our fingertips to create a new future that we didn't have before.

我们已经看到了……

And we've seen...

我们跨越了这道光。

We've straddled this light.

所以，我看到了这一点，但是，这需要冒险。

And so, like, I I see that, but, again, it's gonna take risk.

这需要很大的胆量，你懂我的意思吧。

It's going to take a lot of chutzpah, if you know what I'm saying.

要真正实现那个梦想，我们还有很多事情要做。

Like, there's a lot of things that we need to do to really fulfill that dream.

但我确实看到了一些迹象，表明我们能够抓住那个机会

But I do I do see notes of us being able to kinda grasp that

并让它

and make

成功。

it work.

我喜欢这个。

I love it.

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.