Ep. 70: Agentic AI in Media Planning: From Brief to Activation in Hours

好的，大家好，欢迎收听新一期的AdTech Heroes播客。

Well, hello, and welcome to another exciting episode of the AdTech Heroes podcast.

今天这期很特别，因为我们在旧金山的Amazon Unboxed活动现场，而且今天我有一位非常特别的嘉宾。

And today is a special one because we are here in San Francisco at Amazon Unboxed, and I have a very special guest with me today.

我要欢迎Dentsu的执行副总裁、商业与零售媒体负责人Jason O'Toole。

I'd like to welcome Jason O'Toole, EVP, Head of Commerce and Retail Media at Dentsu.

嘿，Jon，很高兴来到这里。

Hey Jon, great to be here.

很高兴你能来。

Glad to have you.

我觉得你今天在这里已经经历了不少精彩时刻。

And I think you've had quite an exciting time here already.

你今天上午还参与了主题演讲。

You were part of the keynote address this morning.

我很荣幸能和Kelly McLean一起参与开幕主题演讲，我觉得反响还不错。

I was very fortunate to be part of that opening keynote alongside Kelly McLean, and it was, I thought, well received.

整体来说，活动开局不错。

Good start overall to the event.

对，我觉得很棒，我们接下来会深入聊聊刚才讨论的内容，以及你的一些经历，还有这周在这里展示的各种精彩东西。

Yeah, think it was great, and we're gonna dive into a little bit what was discussed during that time and some of your experience and all the great things that are kind of being unboxed here this week.

然后今天这期节目，我们……

And then today's episode, we're...

我们今天要聊的主题之一，就是稍微揭开一点智能体AI的神秘面纱。

Some of the themes that we talked about that we're gonna be, you know, describing and talking through is going a little bit behind the curtain of agentic AI.

这在我们行业里最近是个热门词，但我们要找到它真正的应用场景，看看它是怎么在你和你合作过的品牌那里落地，尤其是在亚马逊上。

Seems to be a big buzzword in our industry these days, but finding the true application, the use of it, how that's come to life for you and some of the brands you've worked with, especially with Amazon.

另外，我们还想探讨一个经常被提到的概念，就是“人在回路”。

But also trying to uncover, and this is a term that's used often, the human in the loop.

我们怎么才能在这个过程里保持控制权呢？

How do we continue to have control in that equation?

所以我们很期待听听你的经验，以及你正在做和继续推进的工作。

So we're excited to hear some of your experience, some of the the work you're doing and continue to develop.

不过在播客里，我们通常会先请主角本人来开场，如果我可以这么说的话。

But on the podcast, we usually kick things off with the hero themselves, if I should say.

我想用几分钟时间，我们很想知道更多关于你的经历，以及你是如何走到今天的，不仅仅是在这个房间里，而是在电通。

And I think couple minutes, we'd love to know a little bit more about your experience and your journey that got you here today, not just in this room, but at Dentsu.

当然可以。

Absolutely.

我的职业生涯其实是从品牌方的全渠道、全漏斗销售和客户主管开始的。

So my journey really started as, you know, an omnichannel full funnel sales and account executive on the brand side.

我算是跟随行业发展的趋势，一开始我们非常注重线下门店，后来电商真的起飞了。

I kind of followed the trend of where the industry has been heading, where we were very in store focused, and then e commerce really took off.

所以我有幸代表一些知名品牌，见证了他们在亚马逊以及更广泛的电商领域的成长和发展。

And so I had the privilege to represent some pretty namesake brands and see their growth and development across Amazon and the broader e commerce landscape.

这最终让我进入了媒体领域，而正如我们所知，一旦我们在电商上扩展了规模，下一步自然就是媒体。

And that ultimately landed me in the world of media, which, as we know, is the natural next step once we've scaled on e commerce.

那就是融入媒体，利用媒体来放大信息传递。

It's to infuse media and amplify the messaging utilizing media.

所以我在品牌方那边担任过几个不同的媒体相关职位，而且随着媒体行业的不断演变，我的角色也在不断变化，所以刚刚离开了一个品牌，在那里我是媒体和连接商务的主管，

So held us a few different brand side roles representing media, and as, again, the media world continued to evolve, my role continued to evolve as well, and so just left a brand where I was head of media and connected commerce,

然后

and

现在负责电通所有的商务和零售媒体。

now oversee all of commerce and retail media for Dentsu.

所以我要理解并管理这个业务领域，关注它的发展，确保我们为客户做对一切事情，确保我们为下一代成功做好准备。

So understanding, overseeing the practice, its evolution, and ensuring that we are doing everything right by our clients to ensure that we are setting ourselves up for the next generation of success.

那太好了，对，而且这可以说是一个相当大的职责范围。

That's great, yeah, and that's a pretty sizable remit, I'd say.

所以我还想问你更早之前的事情，对吧，除了让你走到今天这一步的经历之外，是什么让你对进入媒体行业感到兴奋？

So I also wanna ask you just further back, right, outside of just that that experience that got you to the table, what got you excited about getting into media?

或者有没有那么一个时刻，你当时在做完全不一样的事情，然后你转到了这个领域？

Or was there a moment for you where you're like, you were doing a completely different thing and you, you know, segued into this environment?

太好了。

It's great.

比那更影响我的是我对品牌的热爱。

Even more formative than that is my love of brand.

我喜欢人们如何回应品牌，他们如何感受品牌，对品牌充满热情，以及品牌能为人们的生活带来什么。

I love how people just respond to brands and how they feel and passionate about brands and what brands can do for people's lives.

所以，最初站在品牌方，代表品牌，看到消费者和购物者体验品牌，这对我来说一直很有吸引力。

And so being first on the brand side and representing that and seeing consumers and shoppers experience brand has always been fascinating to me.

然后出现了这种付费参与的 marketplace 环境动态，赞助产品、赞助广告，它变成了一种游戏化的环境，对吧，最好的策略获胜，而你的执行能力真正决定了你在电子商务中的成功。

Then comes this world of this pay to play marketplace environment dynamic where sponsored products, sponsored ads, you know, it becomes kind of this this gameplay environment, right, where, you know, the the best strategy wins and and how well you can execute really is the determining factor of your success in ecommerce.

所以我认为真正让我上瘾的是品牌热爱和竞争热爱之间的平衡。

And so I think that was really what got me addicted was this balance of the love of brand and the love of competition.

太好了。

That's great.

品牌资产如何影响消费者的购物行为？

How does brand equity then lead into this consumer shopping behavior?

这是个好问题，对吧？

It's a great question, right?

回答基于表现、基于指标的问题要容易得多，而你的上层漏斗品牌则更抽象、更持久。

It's a lot easier to answer the performance based, metric based questions versus your upper funnel brand, which is more ethereal and more lifetime.

我们常说，在品牌方面，销售是即时的，品牌是长期的。

We said on the brand side, it's sales overnight, brand over time.

所以这确实是一个更动态、更有层次的问题。

And so it is certainly a more dynamic and layered question to answer.

但我认为，品牌开始看到这种演变，并理解如果你把所有资金都投入表现，或者反过来，都投入品牌，那会有一个有意义且可能痛苦的权衡。

But I think that I think brands are starting to see that evolution and understanding if you put all your money in performance or vice versa, if you put it all in brand, there's there's a meaningful and probably a painful trade off there.

所以真正做得好的品牌都明白两者之间的平衡。

So really the best brands that are doing it understand the balance of both.

我喜欢这个。

Love that.

太好了。

That's great.

这正好引出了我们今天想讨论的一些主题和话题。

And that's a great segue into some of the themes and topics we were hoping to discuss today.

我想把大家带回到今天早上。

And I wanna take us back to this morning.

你，你登上了主舞台。

You you opened the main stage.

你是主题演讲的一部分。

You were part of that equation for the keynote.

你希望每一位电商营销人员从舞台上带走的一个想法是什么？

What's the one idea you think from the stage you want every commerce marketer to take away?

电通和亚马逊是如何合作的？

What is the way that Dentsu and Amazon have worked together?

这如何给未来的代理机构一个信号，让他们思考你在这里所描述的内容？

And how does that signal agencies in the future to think about exactly what you're describing here?

你如何连接漏斗的顶部和底部？

How do you bridge the top to the bottom of the funnel?

我认为过去几年的主题是统一与细分。

I think the theme of the last several years has been unification versus segmentation.

这在组织层面也是如此。

And that is organizationally.

我们就是这样看待媒体的。

That's how we think about media.

我们也是这样购买媒体的。

That's how we buy our media.

所以我认为亚马逊在推动这种对话并将其连接起来方面做得非常出色。

And so I think Amazon is doing an incredible job at infusing that conversation and connecting it together.

再加上技术，这是今天开幕主题演讲中的一大重点。

Then layer on technology, which was a big portion of the opening keynote today.

到目前为止，技术一直处于边缘地带，尤其是在智能体方面。

Technology has really so far been on kind of the periphery, especially from an agentic perspective.

所以我认为亚马逊今天在发布Amazon Ads Agent时立下了标杆，将技术和智能体解决方案置于前台和中心位置，这正是激活团队最终为客户交付媒体表现的方式。

So I think Amazon's planting the flag, if you will, moment today and talking about the launch of Amazon Ads Agent, it puts technology and agentic solutioning at the forefront and at the center of how activation teams are ultimately delivering media performance for clients.

对，而且我也认为你说得对，这比以往任何时候都更加具体了。

Yeah, and I also think to your point, it makes it more tangible than it ever was before.

这些术语我觉得从今年年初的CES就开始流传了，现在我们可以亲眼看到并感受到代理式商务和这一切是如何实现的。

These are terms that I think got floated around since CES earlier in the year, and now we can look and feel how, you know, agentic commerce and everything's coming to life.

所以我很同意这一点。

So I agree with that.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

我们一直在慢慢接近这一刻。

We've been inching towards this moment.

就像我们刚才说的，它一开始很简单。

It it started like we just talked about.

一开始就是简单的赞助产品广告。

It started very simply with sponsored product ads.

然后我们转向了站外，转向了展示广告环境。

Then we moved off-site and we moved to display environments.

然后几年前，亚马逊大力推行CTV和OLV，并与开放互联网建立了有意义的合作伙伴关系。

Then Amazon made a massive push a few years ago to implement CTV and OLV and made meaningful partnerships across the open internet.

所以，我们基本上一直引领着行业，很多品牌和机构都在追赶。

And so we've, really for the most part led the industry in that and a lot of brands and agencies were catching up.

所以现在我们正处于这样一个时刻，行业里充满了复杂性，有必要引入技术来帮助简化那些复杂的情况和动态，仅靠人力很难应对。

And so now we're at this moment where we have so much complexity in the industry and there is this necessity for technology to come in and help to simplify a lot of those complex situations and dynamics that it's very hard on a human only perspective to deal with.

完全同意。

Totally.

而且我能不能在这里补充一点，像这样的合作关系要启动起来，需要很多信任？

And can I can I also forward here that there's a lot of trust that goes into a partnership like this to get it up and running?

当然。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我们很幸运，在电通成为了亚马逊广告聊天功能的第一个合作伙伴。

We were fortunate enough to be the alpha partner for Amazon Ads chat at Dentsu.

抱歉，是亚马逊广告代理，在电通这里。

Or sorry, Amazon Ads Agent here at Dentsu.

所以，能成为这个阿尔法合作伙伴，我们非常重视，而且我们围绕它的开发进行了很多讨论，才走到今天上午你们看到的那个发布时刻。

And so the opportunity to just be that alpha partner is something that we do not take lightly, and we've had many conversations around the development of that and getting to this moment of of launch that you saw earlier today.

太棒了。

Very cool.

我喜欢。

I love it.

好的。

Alright.

那么，我想稍微换个话题，还是围绕智能体，但问一些关于这些主题的问题。

So I wanna switch gears a little bit, staying within agentic, but, you know, some questions around some of these topics.

你知道，关于智能体的讨论大多集中在面向消费者的工具上，而今天这个非常侧重于B2B。

Know, the conversation about agentic has mostly focused on consumer facing tools that we've seen, and this one today is very much surrounded by B2B.

你一直在研究那个幕后运营层面的东西。

You know, you've been working on that operational behind the scenes layer.

在你的经验中，当代理真正帮助一个激活从简报到上线活动时，那实际上是什么样子的？

You know, what does it actually look like for you in your experience when an agent actually helps an activation from that brief to a live campaign?

而且为什么这不仅对品牌和代理机构重要，对消费者本身也很重要？

You know, and why does that not just matter for the brand and the agency, but for the consumer themselves?

这是个好问题。

It's a great question.

归根结底，技术是为了消除摩擦。

I mean, ultimately, technology is meant to eliminate friction.

当然。

Sure.

所以，如果我们能利用技术加快激活时间，更快地开发活动情报，这对各方都是双赢的，对代理机构代表客户来说当然也是双赢的。

And so if we can utilize technology to speed our time to activation and develop campaign intelligence faster, that's a win for all parties, It's certainly a win for the agency in representing their clients.

这对零售商也是双赢的。

It's a win for the retailer.

最终，这对消费者也是双赢的，因为我们能够开发出更精准地针对重要消费者的活动。

And ultimately, it's a win for the consumer because we are able to develop campaigns that are more thoughtfully targeted to the consumers that matter.

我们经常谈论无效触达。

We talk a lot about dead reach.

没有人想看一个广告的次数超过他们觉得有吸引力的次数，对吧？

No one wants to see an ad more times than is compelling to them, right?

没有消费者想要那种体验。

No consumer wants that experience.

所以，我们如何精准地瞄准那些在当下准备好去发现、去购物或去购买的人呢？

And so how do we thoughtfully target the people that are ready in the moment to either discover or to shop or to purchase?

我认为，启用这样的技术能够实现这种能力，而以前这种能力是非常单调和手动化的。

And I think enabling a technology like this allows for that capability that used to be incredibly mundane and manual before.

当然，我觉得你刚才提到了一个有趣的点，就是消费者这一块。我认为在我们的行业中，我们经常忘记我们自己也是消费者，我们也在渴望某种体验。

Sure, and I think you siloed into something interesting there, which is the consumer piece where I think we often forget in our industry that we're also consumers, and there's an experience that we are hungry for as well.

所以，正如你所说，如果我们能用技术来弥合这个差距，把它向前推进，我认为这对双方都是双赢的。

So to your point, if we can bridge that gap with technology to bring it forward, I think that's a win win for think

亚马逊和电通在意识形态上一直是一致的，我们以消费者为先。

Amazon and and Dentsu have always ideologically been aligned, and we start with the consumer first.

当然。

Sure.

然后从消费者出发，一步步往回推，因为没有消费者，行业就无从谈起。

And work our way backwards because without the consumer, the industry doesn't You

需要一个北极星，对吧？

need a North Star, right?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

尤其是在原生广告环境中。

Particularly in endemic environments.

所以我们非常重视这一点，并且对消费者行为的变化以及他们对我们所投放媒体的反应非常敏感，我们如何创造更好的体验，并最终衡量这种体验以进行优化。

And so we we very much value that and are very sensitive to how the consumer behavior is changing and how the consumer is responding to the media that we are delivering to them and how are we creating a better experience, and then ultimately measuring that experience to optimize.

对，这就是关键，对吧？

Yeah, and that's the key, right?

它是否能带来实际效果？

Does it drive an output?

它是否能带来对品牌有利的结果，同时让消费者的体验感觉良好？

Does it drive an outcome that's successful for a brand, and makes the experience of the consumer feel good?

我觉得这周我学到的一件事是，消费者的行为也在变化，对吧？

And I think one of the things I'm learning this week is that that consumer behavior is also changing, right?

不再只是在一个地方搜索，比如在亚马逊上搜索。

It's no longer just a one stop shop where they're searching on Amazon.

他们现在有不同的方式进行购物，对吧？

There's different ways that they're actually doing their commerce, right?

我们想到Alexa Plus之类的，所以我们也会深入探讨这个。

We think about Alexa Plus and things like that, so we're gonna dive into that as well.

当你和真实客户、用真实资金测试新东西时，我知道你之前做过，我们好像聊过卡夫和Alpha，那是你合作的品牌，对吧？你是怎么让合适的利益相关者参与进来的？

You know, when you're testing something new with a real client, with real dollars, as I know that you had, I think we talked a little bit about Kraft and the Alpha, that was the brand, right, you were working with, How did you keep the right stakeholders involved?

怎么……

How...

我们刚才谈到了信任。

You know, we talked about trust a moment ago.

你是怎么让他们相信，他们的钱被妥善用在了这个新测试上的？

How were you able to get them to feel confident that their dollars were being invested appropriately with this new test?

再回到人类参与这个话题，当我们考虑智能体工作流时，这种动态是什么样的？

And going back to humans in the loop, what does that dynamic look like when we're thinking about agentic workflows?

当然。

Absolutely.

所以，信任并不是从这个智能体Alpha开始的。

So the the moment of trust didn't obviously start with this agent alpha.

它早在几个月甚至几年前就开始了。

It started months and perhaps years before.

建立信任是一个不断演变的过程。

Trust building is an ever evolving thing.

所以我认为我们很幸运，我们的合作伙伴愿意在这个过程中和这段旅程中积极参与。

And so I think we're very fortunate to our partners for being willing to lean in on that part of the process and along this journey.

我认为最终，这关乎讲故事，对吧？

I think ultimately, it's storytelling, right?

而且这也在告诉我们的客户，这最终能带来实实在在的好处。

And it's informing our clients that this can ultimately be a net positive benefit.

你们要求的是快速上市。

And you've asked for speed to market.

你们要求的是更高的智能。

You've asked for greater intelligence.

你们要求的是最终能带来更好表现的东西，找到愿意购买并建立品牌忠诚度的消费者。

You've asked for things that ultimately deliver better performance and finding consumers that are willing to purchase and create brand loyalty.

所以，如果我们能比竞争对手更快地解决这些问题，那我们就真正为客户做到了最好。

And so if we could solve those things on a faster timeline than our competitive set, then we've ultimately done right by our client.

没错。

Absolutely.

那我能问一下，在这个测试环境中，你们多快就能得到可以采取行动的发现和见解？

And can I ask, in this testing environment, how quickly did you get findings and insights that you can act on?

因为那总是个挑战，对吧？

Because that's always the challenge, right?

我们常讨论广告活动，可能会获得不错的广告支出回报率之类的数据，但之后可能无法了解其他方面的衡量指标。

We talk about campaigns that run, and you might get a great ROAS or something like that, but you may not learn about other attributes of measurement later on.

有没有什么例子可以说明在流程早期就取得了成功？

Was there anything you could speak to that showcased success early on in the process?

首先是我们这边的速度，对吧？

The first is actually the speed on our side, right?

所以我们看到了一个巨大的数字，大概是点击率降低了36%，我会去核实一下。

So we saw a tremendous number, think it was 36% less clicks, and I'll get that verified.

点击到激活的转化率降低了36%。

36% less clicks to activation.

所以当我们思考速度和进行精细目标定位所需的单调工作，以及我们的节奏如何时，对吧？

So as we think about the speed and the monotony that it takes to do very thoughtful targeting, and how are we pacing, right?

传统激活框架和操作中的所有环节现在都在被精简。

All of the elements that are in traditional activation frameworks and operations is now being reduced.

这实际上开启了一个非常有趣的想法，那就是速度会引发好奇心。

And so it actually unlocks a really interesting idea, and that is speed leads to curiosity.

因为团队能更快地启动，他们现在有更多时间去深入数据，挖掘策略和洞察，从而开发出下一个最佳的广告方案或创意点子，并通过媒体呈现出来。

Because the teams can activate faster, they now have more time to actually be in the data and mine the strategy and the insights so that we can develop the next best campaign solution or the next best creative idea that we can bring to life through media.

所以，这种速度带来的好奇心，我认为是这项技术解锁带来的巨大优势。

And so this idea of speed fostering this curiosity is something that I think is an overwhelming advantage with this technology unlock.

对，这正是大家都在寻找的，对吧？

Yeah, and that's what everyone's searching for, right?

就是我们的智慧和AI之间的那种共生关系，对吧？

That symbiotic relationship between our intelligence and the AI, right?

它们是怎么共存的呢？

How does it all coexist?

我很喜欢你举的那个例子。

So I like that example you gave.

那除了测试方面，它会不会也带来一些效率低下的问题？

So, you know, on top of the testing aspect, does it ever come with a level of inefficiency?

比如，在早期阶段，你有没有遇到过类似的情况？

Like, have you experienced any, like, in the early stages of the process?

有没有什么让你觉得，哎呀，我们还有学习曲线要克服，还是说基本上就是拿来就能用？

Was there anything that caught your your eye, like, okay, we still have a learning curve that we need to get into this space, or was it very much just plug and play?

我觉得我们的团队现在对alpha和beta测试已经很习惯了，而且经常和亚马逊在这种环境下合作。

I think our teams are very used to alphas and betas at this point, and partnering with Amazon often in these environments.

我们明白它不是完美的，是迭代的，但这就是我们这么做的原因，对吧？

We understand that it's not perfect, it's iterative, but that's the reason that we do it, right?

所以我们非常感谢像亚马逊这样的合作伙伴，让我们在向公众开放和发布之前，能有这样的测试环境。

And so we're very grateful to partners like Amazon that allow us this testing environment, before it's open and released to the general public.

所以当然它并不总是完美的。

So of course it's not always perfect.

会有一些卡顿的时候，但我们会一起合作克服这些，最终得到一个消费者和买家今天就能体验到的成果，因为今天早些时候它已经发布了。

There's clunky moments, but, we get through that together in partnership and we ultimately lead to an output that the consumer and the buyer can experience today as it was launched earlier today.

所以这就回到了信任，信任就是这么来的。

So that's going back to trust, That's where it comes from.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

信任就是一切，对吧？

Trust is everything, right?

这不仅是对客户的信任，也是对合作伙伴的信任。

It's not just trust with client, but it is trust with partner too.

而且

And

信任是赢得的，对吧？

trust is earned, right?

所以我觉得这些都是基本的人性要素。

And so I think that these are fundamental human components.

随着你不断建立信任，你就能解锁更多机会，甚至从客户的角度来看，也能获得一种自由去尝试新事物。

As you continue to build trust, you're able to unlock opportunities and even from a client perspective, be given a sense of freedom to experiment.

我们并不是把所有资金都投入到由广告代理运营的单一广告活动中，对吧？

It's not that we pushed all of our dollars into one campaign that was run by ads agent, right?

这是一个非常迭代的过程。

It's very iterative.

这是一种先测试再学习的方法，但随着我们不断积累这些经验，我们实际上比一开始就不尝试的情况下扩展得更快。

It's a test and learn first approach, but as we continue to develop those learnings, we actually scale faster than we could had we never tried in the first place.

那太好了。

That's great.

迈出这一步确实令人兴奋。

Taking that leap is is exciting.

是的。

Yes.

不错。

Cool.

好的，我们之前讨论过的另一件事是，不仅仅是孤立地看待它，但在数据与身份基础设施方面，尤其是在商业和零售领域，也有大量工作在更密集的层面上进行。

Okay, so one of the other things that we had discussed prior was not just looking at it in a bit of, I don't wanna say siloed fashion, but there's a lot of work being done at the denser level too, when we talk about data and identity infrastructure, especially when it comes to commerce and retail.

你的数据集是如何协同工作的？

You know, how do your data sets begin to work together?

互补性体现在哪里，你又是如何看待超特定的定制受众的？

What is the complementary aspect there, and how do you think about hyper specific custom audiences?

这些是怎么组合在一起的，你所说的激活是指什么？

How is this all kind of grouped together, the activation that you're

好问题，这正是像亚马逊这样的平台对我们来说理想的原因。我们考虑的是全渠道、全漏斗，我们想开展从CTV环境开始，一直贯穿到深思熟虑的再营销、展示广告，再到站内赞助产品广告的广告活动，最终转化消费者并开始建立忠诚度。

Yeah, it's a great question, and that's why a platform like Amazon is ideal for us, where we think about omnichannel, full funnel, and we want to run campaigns that begin in a CTV environment and run all the way, you know, through thoughtful retargeting and in display and then on-site sponsored product ads, to ultimately convert the consumer and begin to build loyalty.

因此，像亚马逊这样独特的平台，为我们提供了端到端的能力，让我们能够做到这一点，并利用全漏斗闭环指标，最终提供那种智能洞察。

And so it takes a unique platform, like Amazon that gives us the end to end, capabilities to do that and utilize, the full funnel closed loop metrics that can ultimately deliver that type of intelligence.

我们并不是在每个网络上都有，但我们在亚马逊这里有，所以我们当然会利用这一点作为我们的优势。

We're not there every, you know, on every network, but we're here with Amazon, and so we certainly take that and use that as our advantage.

很好。

Great.

那么，你能再详细谈谈你通过Merkel和Dentsu获得的数据之间的相互作用吗？这在其中也起了作用吗？

And then can you talk a little bit more about how that interplay between the data that you have access to through Merkel and Dentsu, is that playing a part in the equation as well?

当然。

Absolutely.

所以当我们谈论吸收受众数据来创建自定义受众时，对，我们既使用我们在Dentsu方面的自有智能，也使用像AMC工具这样的深思熟虑的解决方案，构建相似受众，考虑地理定向广告活动，如果我们真的想放大和庆祝客户的超本地化激活的话。

So when we talk about the ingestion of audience data to create custom audiences, right, we're using both our own intelligence on the Dentsu side, as well as thoughtful solutioning like AMC's tools, Building lookalike audiences and thinking of geo targeted campaigns, if there's hyper local activations that we're really trying to amplify and celebrate from our clients.

但这些数据来源的结合，现在显然还有客户的第一方数据，对吧？

But the marriage of these ingestion points, now there's obviously the clients' 1P data, right?

还要理解他们的零售数据情报。

And understanding their retail data intelligence too.

所有这些都是有意义的输入，最终支撑起我们的规划和激活策略。

All of these are meaningful inputs that ladder up to our planning and activation strategies.

我们看到的成果是更高的效率、投资回报的增量提升，以及长期来看销售和品牌好感度的增长。

And what we see as an output is better efficiency, more incremental return on our investments, and ultimately a lift in sales and brand sentiment over time.

我觉得增量性是最吸引人的部分，也是如今品牌们真正在寻找的。

Incrementality piece I find is like, it's the most compelling aspect that brands are really searching for these days.

当然，当我们想到浪费的支出时，我们很痛心，我们也知道不是每一美元都能100%带来增量。

Absolutely, I mean, when we think about it kills us to ever see wasted spend, and we know that not every dollar will ever be 100% incremental.

但现在我们在亚马逊有了测量方案来定义和了解这一点，这让我们能做出更明智的决策，同时也给客户带来更好的安心感，并继续建立信任，让他们相信我们会尽最大能力利用好他们的下一笔最佳预算，以及利用平台上现有的测量手段。

But now that we have a measurement solution within Amazon to define that and understand what that is, that allows us to make obviously more informed decisions but also give our clients again better peace of mind and build that continue to build that trust that we are hyper focused on utilizing your next best dollar to the best of our capabilities and what is available today from a measurement standpoint across the platform.

太棒了。

Love that.

说得太对了。

Love that.

那今天我们的对话也快接近尾声了，不过今天还提到了商业的另一个方面，而且这一年里也经常被讨论，就是对话式人工智能。

So we're coming towards the tail end of our conversation today, but one of the other aspects of commerce that has been discussed here, it's talked about a lot throughout the year, is conversational AI.

随着Alexa Plus的进步，以及亚马逊在这个领域的持续扩展和创新，你看到的不只是消费者的采用情况，还有它是如何融入你的整体策略的？除了代理式AI，你是如何把消费者旅程的这个方面也考虑进去的？

The advancement of Alexa Plus, and as Amazon continues to expand and innovate in that space, what are you seeing in terms of not just consumer adoption, but how is that playing into your overarching strategy as you think moving forward outside of just agentic AI, but incorporating that aspect of the consumer journey?

首先，我觉得我们必须认识到今天开幕主题演讲中提到的惊人采用率。

Well, first is I think we have to recognize the incredible adoption rates that were addressed at today's opening keynote.

我记得那个数字大概是6565%，

I believe the number was around 6565%,

有消费者在购物时借助了对话式人工智能。

Of consumers had used conversational AI with the help of a purchase.

我们要记住，一年半到两年前，这个数字还是0%。

We have to keep in mind, that was 0% a year and a half, two years ago.

所以这个采用规模真的是非常惊人。

So the adoption scale is incredibly impressive.

现在我们想想这其中的动态变化，对吧？

Now we think about the dynamics of that, right?

这带来了什么改变？

What is this changing?

改变相当大，因为争夺消费者注意力的战场最终是在搜索结果页上。

It's changing considerably because the battlefield to win the consumer's attention was ultimately on the search results page.

当然。

Sure.

但现在这个环节可能完全被跳过了，因为有人对着Alexa说，我需要什么样的解决方案。

That may now be skipped entirely because someone is saying into Alexa, here's what the solution I need is.

它可能只给出一两个或三个解决方案，而以前则是可以不断滚动浏览，找到最适合自己的方案。

And it gives maybe one or two, maybe three solutions versus before the optionality to continuously scroll to find the best solution for them.

如今人们对这些对话式AI代理有很高的信任度，对吧？

And humans today have a very high level of trust with these conversational AI agents, right?

因为我觉得他们相信这些AI是客观的，最终是为了帮助他们改善生活。

Because I think they believe that it is meant to be objective and it is meant for ultimately assisting them in improving their lives.

所以这带来了一波新的机遇，但也带来了新的挑战，因为你想，你不能再排第十就满足了，对吧？

And so it creates a groundswell of new opportunities, but also new challenges as we think about you can't just be tenth and be okay with it, right?

想想我们传统的声量份额指标。

As we think about our old school share of voice metrics.

现在只剩下三个了，所以这确实改变了媒体购买，尤其是在绩效环境中的动态，这是前所未有的。

Now it's down to three And so that really creates a different dynamic to media buying, particularly in performance environments than we've ever had before.

而且，你同意吗，这也进一步提升了品牌资产的价值，在链条的更上游？

And also, do you agree, it kind of increases the value for brand equity as well further up the chain?

当然，这就是你要继续学习的地方，了解对话式AI模型是如何运作的，它是如何思考抓取内容的，以及它使用了哪些来源？

Absolutely, and this is where you want to continue to learn how is the conversational AI model, how is it working, how is it thinking about scraping, and what sources is it using?

在开放的互联网上，这些方法可能各不相同。

And across the open internet, that may have different methodologies.

所以，真正深入了解他们用什么来做这些决定，是至关重要的。

So really getting very dialed on the understanding of what are they using to make these decisions is critically important.

我认为在未来十年里，品牌资产绝对不会消失。

I think the thing that doesn't go away in the next decade absolutely is brand equity.

所以，要继续打造品牌资产。

So continue to build brand equity.

这是我们即使对只做效果广告的客户也会分享的，当然也包括我们全漏斗代理机构的所有客户。

That's what we would share with even performance only clients, and certainly across our full funnel, suite of agency of agency clients.

但我觉得，就像消费者信任人工智能一样，他们也信任那些符合他们信念、行事正确、扎根于社区的品牌，这些品牌最终会在人们心中建立起信念。

But I just think that just as, consumers have a trust in AI, there's also a trust in brands that believe in what they believe in, that do right, that are ingrained in their communities, and ultimately build belief within people.

这些品牌将在下一代中继续崛起。

Those are the brands that are gonna continue to rise over this next generation.

说得好。

Well said.

这让我想到了我们对话的开头，就像我们今天聊天的首尾呼应一样。

And that brings me to the beginning of our conversation as we kind of bookend our chat today.

你小时候最喜欢的品牌是什么？

What was your favorite brand growing up?

比如，是什么让你一开始就对品牌方面感到兴奋？

Like, what excited you about, you know, getting into the brand side to start?

这个问题问得真好。

It's a great question.

确实是个好问题。

It's a good question.

你把我难住了。

You got me on the spot.

不好意思啊。

I'm sorry about that.

这不在我们准备的问题清单里。

That was not on the on the list.

我我其实想过这个。

I I about it.

我确实想过。

I thought about it.

我就想，我真的很想知道。

I'm like, I'd love to know.

这是我很好奇的一点。

That's something I'm curious about.

挺好的。

It's good.

我可以告诉你我的想法。

I mean, I can give you mine.

对我来说，我觉得从小到大，我对可口可乐真的很有好感。

For me, I think growing up, I had a real affinity towards, I'll say, I mean, Coca Cola.

作为一个……

I mean, you know, as a...

而且作为一个……

And as a...

在我年轻的时候，我觉得在节日期间，那种圣诞老人和北极熊的画面总是让我很有感觉。

In my younger years, and I think I always had that impact around the holiday season with, like, the the visualization of, like, Santa Claus and the polar bear and things like that.

那一直让我很有共鸣，也慢慢培养了我对这个产品和品牌的喜爱，我记得我甚至还有过一条北极熊可口可乐图案的内裤。

That always resonated with me and kinda built a little bit of my my affinity towards product, the brand, and, you know, I think I had, like, polar bear Coca Cola boxers at one point.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以那个……

So that...

这有点过头了，但确实是我在敞开心扉。

That's a overkill there, but that's certainly me opening up a little bit.

不过，是的，如果你把这个放在心上，

But, yeah, if you have that on top of mind,

对我来说，可口可乐一直很特别，因为我自己就是亚特兰大人。

look to Coca Cola's always meant something special to me being an Atlantan myself.

我正要说这个。

I was gonna say that.

它确实是这座城市的灵魂，所以可口可乐在我心中永远有特殊的位置。

It is it is the DNA of the city, and so Coca Cola will always have a special place in my heart.

我想说另一个，就是在我成长的那个时代，讽刺的是，这些主题演讲变得重要，正好是苹果大型发布会和史蒂夫·乔布斯巅峰时期。

I'd say another one, just growing up in a time where, ironically full circle, these keynotes became big is around these big Apple announcements and Steve Jobs at his prime.

所以我觉得这是品牌建设的一个绝佳范例。

So I think it's such a wonderful illustration of brand building.

太棒了。

It's great.

能有这样的时刻，对吧？

To have these moments, right?

跳出日常交易的框架，去构建这种前瞻性的信念体系，并像史蒂夫那样精彩地通过主题演讲来展现它。

To live outside of a transactional day to day environment and build this kind of future thinking belief system and deploy it in keynotes like Steve did so brilliantly.

我觉得那是我总会记下日历上他演讲日期的东西，以及会有什么样的苹果新品发布。

I think that was something that I always mark the date on my calendar of when his keynote was and what kind of new Apple announcements would be coming out.

太喜欢了。

Love it.

回答得很好。

That's a good answer.

好的，在我们的播客里，我们通常以一两个不同的问题来结束。

Okay, so here on the podcast, we usually end it with one or two different questions.

我觉得我们不如把三个问题都过一遍，然后你可以决定回答哪一个。

I think maybe we'll go through all three and you could decide which one

好的。

Great.

你最想回答哪个。

Most excited to answer.

我想先从作为播客上的AdTech英雄开始。

I wanna start with being an AdTech Hero on the podcast.

在这个行业里，你运用的一种超能力是什么？

What is a kind of superpower in the industry that you deploy?

是什么让你……

What would make you...

你的超能力是什么？

What's your superpower?

我觉得在接下来的几年里，随着像Amazon Ads Agent这样的产品推出，真正让购买和我们所说的执行机制变得大众化。

I think over the next several years, with products like Amazon Ads Agent coming out, and really democratizing the buying and the, we call it the execution mechanics.

当这些变得普及化时，好的和坏的策略就都无处遁形了。

When that becomes commoditized, it forces good and bad strategy out from hiding.

所以我最引以为傲的就是策略和洞察力。

And so the thing I pride myself most on is strategy and intelligence.

因此，我认为在所有的摩擦消失之后，这一点将会在代理机构和品牌方面得到充分展现。

And so I think that that is going to be on full display for agencies and for brands alike after all of the friction has left.

有道理。

Moved.

是的，现在关键在于你能多快地适应消费者行为的变化，以及新广告平台和策略的推出。

And yes, and it's now how quickly can you adapt to new consumer behavior changes, to new ad platforms and tactics being released.

这让我很着迷。

That's something that's fascinating to me.

我个人认为我就是为这个时刻而生的。

And I personally think that I'm...

那正是我一直在等待的时刻。

That's the moment I've been built for.

那挺酷的。

That's cool.

尤其是考虑到你的经验。

Especially with your experience.

我觉得这是个很好的回答。

I think that's a that's a great answer.

所以，是的，我想问你的另一个问题是，未来有什么让你感到兴奋的事情，又有什么让你感到担忧，或者你觉得还有很多工作要做的事情？

So, yeah, I think the other one I wanted to ask you was, you know, what is one thing that excites you for the future and one thing that maybe concerns you or something that you think that there's still a lot more work to be done?

好问题。

Great questions.

让我兴奋的未来，我想，是品牌和商业不再分开，而是我们可以精心讲述一个连贯的故事。

The thing that excites me for the future, I think, is this idea that brand and commerce are no longer living separately, but we can can thoughtfully tell one cohesive story.

当然。

Sure.

而且现在你甚至可以在商业环境中建立品牌，而几年前那还是个神话，对吧？

And the idea that you can even build brand in commerce environments now, whereas years ago that was a myth, right?

这以前是闻所未闻的。

That was foreign.

这真的让我很兴奋。

It's really exciting to me.

所以我认为我们整个行业需要继续朝这个方向努力，要明白品牌和商业不是左右分开、偶尔才交流一下的。

And so I think we need to continue to lean into that as an industry and understand that it is not brand on the left, commerce on the right, and sometimes they speak to each other.

我们在电通，在制定战略和规划消费者旅程的初期，就非常刻意地整合各方力量，让它们交织在一起，无论最终采用什么活动和策略。

We at Dentsu have really been very intentional about unifying forces at the beginning of our strategy development, at our consumer journey, so that it interweaves no matter what campaigns and tactics we ultimately deploy.

所以我对这一点非常兴奋。

So I'm very excited about that.

那太好了。

That's great.

至于担忧，我觉得虽然对智能体解决方案的信任是好事，但我担心特别是年轻一代在使用时没有同样运用批判性思维。

The concern, I think that while trust within agentic solutioning is great, I fear that particularly the younger generations are using it without applying some critical thinking as well.

说得对，非常对。

Point, very

对，所以我认为我们之前讨论的速度、智能等所有内容都很关键，但如果没有人类监督，没有让你停下来思考‘这最终是不是我想传达的信息’的机制，那就不行。

good And so I do think that we, the speed, the intelligence, all that we talked about on today's podcast is critical, but if it isn't, there's not human oversight, if there's not something that allows you to pause and say, is this ultimately the message that I'm trying to deliver?

当然。

Sure.

无论是面向客户、市场还是消费者，我认为我们需要继续保持这种平衡，理解这是人与技术之间的合作关系。

Whether it's to the client, to the market, the consumer, what have you, I think we need to continue to maintain that balance and understand that it is a partnership between humanity and technology.

这个结尾太棒了。

Excellent way to end it.

非常感谢你今天能来参加我们的节目，希望你在Unboxed能有更多收获，激发你的创意和技能，真的非常感谢你的参与。

Really appreciate you joining us here today, and I hope that you get to experience more here at Unboxed that opens up your creative thinking and your skill set, and I really appreciate you joining us.

谢谢Jon邀请我。

Thanks, Jon, for having me.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢你的收听，希望你喜欢这期AdTech Heroes，这是C Tech的原创播客，C Tech是全球神经情境广告的领导者。

Thank you for listening, and we hope you enjoyed this episode of AdTech Heroes, an original podcast by C Tech, the global leader in neuro contextual advertising.

基于神经科学原理，并借助最新的智能体AI技术，C Tech提供隐私优先的全漏斗广告方案，能够理解用户的兴趣、情绪和意图。

Built on neuroscience principles and powered by the latest advancements in agentic AI, C Tech delivers privacy first, full funnel advertising that understands interests, emotions and intentions.

了解更多信息，请访问ctag.com与我们联系。

Learn more and reach out to us at ctag dot com.