Claude代码可成为你的第二大脑

Noah Breyer 可能拥有我见过最酷的 Claude code 配置。他在地下室搭了一台家用服务器，把 Obsidian 仓库放进去，然后在上面跑 Claude code。这样他就能用手机直接思考、研究、写作，甚至发布代码。今天，他向我们展示如何把 Claude code 当作真正的第二大脑——一个会提出尖锐问题的思考伙伴，能从他的整个笔记库和网上拉取研究资料，还持续记录他学到的东西和最好的点子。他会带我们完整过一遍他的技术栈和工作流。

Noah Breyer might have the coolest Claude code setup I've ever seen. He rigged a home server in his basement, put his Obsidian vault in it, and then runs Claude code on top. So he can think, research, write, and even ship code right from his phone. Today, he shows us how he uses Claude code as a true second brain, a thinking partner that asks him sharp questions, pulls research from his whole note archive and the web, and even keeps a running log of what he's learned and what his best ideas are. And he walks us through his whole stack and his whole workflow.

如果你想学会把 Claude code 当成真正的第二大脑，这期节目必看。咱们开始吧。

If you wanna learn how to use Claude code as a true second brain, this is the episode to watch. Let's dive in.

本播客由 Google 赞助。大家好，我是 Google DeepMind 团队的 Paige Bailey。各位开发者都知道，在模型智能、速度和成本之间总要权衡。Gemini 2.5 Flash 正是为解决这个问题而生。

This podcast is supported by Google. Hi, folks. Paige Bailey here from the Google DeepMind team. For our developers out there, we know there's a constant trade off between model intelligence, speed, and cost. Gemini two dot five Flash aims right at that challenge.

它保持了 Flash 系列的速度，却升级了推理能力。关键是，我们加入了“思考预算”等控制项，让你自行决定投入多少推理，从而优化延迟和成本。快去 aistudio.google.com 试用 Gemini 2.5 Flash，并告诉我们你做出了什么。

It's got the speed you expect from Flash but with upgraded reasoning power. And, crucially, we've added controls like setting thinking budgets so you can decide how much reasoning to apply optimizing for latency and costs. So try out Gemini two dot five Flash at aistudio.google.com, and let us know what you built.

Noah，欢迎做客节目。

Noah, welcome to the show.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

我很高兴能邀请到你。能聊聊真的很棒。这是我们大概五年来第一次采访。对不了解的人来说，你是最早的超级组织者采访对象之一。那份通讯后来变成了 Every。

I'm excited to have you. It's really good to, get to chat. This is our first interview in probably, like, five years. You were one of the for people who don't know, you're one of the first super organizers, interviewees. That was the newsletter that turned into Every.

我喜欢你的思维方式。你对思维工具有着非常独特的品味。当年，你用 Evernote 做了很多有趣的尝试。你是很酷的初创公司 Percolate 的联合创始人，后来又创办了 Variance。现在你在经营一家 AI 战略咨询公司 Elephic。

And I I love the way that your brain works. You have this, like, really interesting taste for tools for thought. And back in the day, you're using Evernote in all these really interesting ways. You were, the cofounder of a really cool startup, called Percolate, and then another one called Variance. And now you're running Elephic, which is an AI strategy consultancy.

我真的很期待看看，既然这些 AI 工具现在表现得这么好，你是怎么开始用它们的。我知道你有一些很酷的 Claude code 要展示给我们。所以，再次感谢你来上节目。

And I'm just really excited to see how your mind has started to use these AI tools now that now that they're now that they're, you know, working so well. And I know you have some pretty cool Claude code stuff to show us. So, yeah, thanks for coming on.

谢谢邀请我。是的，我非常兴奋。多年前那次采访很有趣。

Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm super excited. That was a a fun interview all those years back.

真的真的特别有趣。所以我只想直接切入我觉得你最酷的地方。我知道你给自己搭了一套完整的氛围编程环境。能给我们讲讲吗？

It was it was really, really fun. So I wanna just, like, dive right into the the, like, the thing that I think is so cool about what you're doing. So I I know you have a whole, like, vibe coding setup that you built for yourself. Can you talk us through that?

嗯，其实我不太确定它算不算氛围编程。我有一套挺重量级的 Claude Code 配置，但主要并不是用来写代码。自从当年用超级笔记工具之后，像很多人一样，我抛弃了 Evernote，转到了 Obsidian。Obsidian 作为笔记平台最大的好处就是，它只是一堆 Markdown 文件和文件夹，可以用 Git 同步，还能玩出很多别的花样。

Yeah. I wouldn't, I'm not sure about actually the vibe coding part of it. I have a a sort of fairly heavy duty Claude code setup, but actually mostly not for code. So, since those days of, super organizers, like many people, I've abandoned Evernote, and, switched over to Obsidian. And one of the big advantages with Obsidian as a note taking platform is that it's a bunch of markdown files and a bunch of folders, and, they can then be synced with Git, and you can do lots of other fun kinds of things.

所以，我头号 Claude Code 用法其实是拿它当工具来打理我的笔记。我有一套相当认真的 Claude Code 配置配合 Obsidian 使用。最近我迷上的新玩意儿，是在家里搭一台服务器，这样我手机上也能用 Code。

And so, actually, probably my number one Claude code use is using it as a tool to interact with my notes. And so that, I've got a fairly serious Claude code setup that I use with Obsidian. And, my most recent obsession, has been, standing up a server in my house so that I could also use code on my phone.

太牛了。我想把这一切都聊透。我们从哪儿开始？是先讲你怎么把 Claude Code 当研究助理、笔记整理员，还是先讲你怎么在手机上用它？

This is incredible. I wanna I wanna go through all of this. So where where should we start? Should we do should we do how you use Claude code as sort of this, like, research assistant notes organizer, notetaker thing, or should we start with how you use it on your phone?

都行。可以先讲通用的部分，可能最容易理解。手机端其实只是同一件事的延伸。总的来说，我觉得有件事大家谈 AI 谈得还不够：它让我能在手机上高效工作，这一点让我特别震撼。

We can use it. We can start with just the sort of general part of it. That that might be the sort of easiest. The phone is really just an extension of that same thing. I, I would say sort of generally, and this is something I feel like not enough people talk about with AI, is like one of the things I find really extraordinary about it is the ability for me to work really productively on my phone.

这带来了翻天覆地的变化，因为我平时大量时间都在写作或写代码，而手机显然不是最佳场所。甚至以前做研究和思考，我也觉得电脑更合适，所以我才那么依赖记笔记。现在我发现，无论是 Claude Code 配 Obsidian，还是 Claude Code 直接配代码，都能搞定。

And that's been like a huge, huge change because so much of what I do is sort of writing or coding, and the phone is definitely not the best place for that. And even the phone wasn't always the best place for doing research and thinking. I felt like my computer was a better place for it, which is why I've been such a sort of notetaker. And, you know, I have found whether it's like Claude code and Obsidian or, I mean, even Claude code and code. Right.

另一大好处是，如果突然发现哪里出问题了，我可以在手机上登录，让 Claude Code 推个小更新，这种体验太爽了。此外，我还经常用 Grok 的语音模式，把它当成另一种思考问题的方式。我有辆特斯拉，它内置了 Grok，所以随时随地都能用。当然，还有 ChatGPT、Claude 等等，都能让我在这台以前只能轻度使用的设备上做深入研究、思考和探索。大家普遍觉得手机不适合深度编程和研究，但现在真的改变了我的工作方式。

So like the other piece of it is being able to then, you know, if you see something go wrong, being able to sign in on your phone and have Claude code push a small update to something because you just realize it while you're out is amazing. But then even like, you know, I use quite a bit of, grok voice mode. And, you know, I find that that as a sort of, like, alternative way of working through problems. I have a Tesla, so now it's baked into the Tesla. And, you know, it's just I and, you know, obviously, all those sort of other Chad GPT and Claude and all these things of just being able to sort of, like, go and do research and really think and and explore things in this device that's always been useful, but, like, not useful for deep work, I think, is probably, something most people would agree with, is that the phone has not been the best place to kind of do deep coding and research work, and I feel like it it it's really changed my ability to do that.

等等，我得打断一下。你在用 Grok 语音模式，是因为特斯拉内置，还是即使不在车里，你也会选它而不是 ChatGPT 语音模式？

Wait. I gotta stop you. So you're using Grok voice mode. And and is that specifically because it's built into your Tesla or using it in situations where you could also use, for example, Chad GBT voice mode?

不是，我用它是因为它比所有其他语音模式都强得多，谁不同意我都可以battle。

No. I'm using it because it's way better than any of the other voice modes, and I will fight anybody who says anything different.

好，那你具体喜欢它什么？为什么觉得更好？

Okay. No. Tell me, like, what is what do you like about it? Why is it better?

说句公道话，OpenAI 发布了他们的实时 API，现在可能已经、也可能还没集成进 ChatGPT 语音。我不是很确定。但旧版语音模式是基于 4o 的，我觉得完全没法用。而 Gemini 的语音模式，我觉得不够聪明。相比之下，Grok 的语音模式明显比其他家都聪明得多。

I to be fair, OpenAI launched their real time API, which may or may not be baked into ChatGPT voice now. I it's not totally clear. But the old voice mode was based on four o, and I just found it to be completely unusable. And Gemini's voice mode, I just didn't find to be smart enough. And I just found Grok's voice mode to be significantly smarter than anybody else's.

你知道，我在用 Grok 二、三、四，我都记不清是哪个最新版了。就

You know, I'm using Grok two, three, four. I don't even remember what whatever the latest. The

是最新的那个。嗯。

latest one. Yeah.

嗯。但不是超级——我没有最贵的账号。

Yeah. But not the super I don't have the most expensive account.

“超级重”还是什么。我没有

Super heavy or whatever. I don't

“超级重”。但我就是觉得它好用得多。它的工具调用比其他任何一家都强。我发现语音模型的一大短板就是工具调用和研究做得不好，而 Grok 似乎解决了这个问题。所以，早在它装进我的特斯拉之前，今年夏天我送女儿去新罕布什尔州的夏令营。

have super heavy. But I just find it to be much better. It does tool calling way better than any of the other ones. That's that's I found to be a major weakness of the voice models is that they don't do great tool calling and research, and Grox seems to solved that. So no, even before it was loaded in my Tesla, I dropped my daughter off at summer camp this summer up in New Hampshire.

于是我一个人开了五小时车。我花了大概两小时做研究，基本就是把一篇文章捋顺。我就通过蓝牙连上车机，坐着聊。我觉得它的语音模式绝对是最好的。我希望其他模型也能追上来，因为我很想要更多真正优秀的语音模式。

So I had a five hour drive on my own. And I spent like two hours researching and essentially like working through a piece. And I did it by just, like, connecting it to Bluetooth and just sort of sitting there in the car. And, I found it to be by far the, the best of the voice modes. I I hope these other models catch up there because I would I would love more really good voice modes.

我这周末有一次震撼体验，我要做个演讲，我有一些想法，大概讲“Transformer 吞噬世界”。于是我就补了补自注意力机制，搞清楚它到底怎么运作。我聊了一小时，这绝对是我听过对自注意力最棒的解释。所以，我觉得这产品真的挺惊艳的。

I mean, I had a mind blowing session this weekend, and, I'm giving a talk, I'm I sort of have some ideas. I think it's generally gonna be about transformers eating the world. And, so I was sort of catching myself up on self attention and exactly how it works. And, I did like an hour session and it really, I I like was by far the sort of best explanation I've ever read for it and or ever heard, I guess. And so, yeah, I've I've just found it to be a a kind of pretty extraordinary product.

我确实喜欢语音模式这点。它就像专门为你定制的播客，讲你好奇的任何话题，这太酷了。我这周末开车去北部，我在读《伊利亚德》，所以听了有声书，路上又冒出些问题。可惜当时用的是 ChatGPT 语音模式，因为我不知道 Grok。

I do love voice mode for that. It's sort of like it's the it's a podcast made specifically for you about whatever you're curious about, and that's really cool. I went up to I I drove upstate this weekend, and I've been reading I've been reading The Iliad. And so I had it on audiobook, and then I had some questions as I was driving. And so I unfortunately, it's ChatGPT voice mode because I didn't know about Grok.

我真希望当时用的是 Grok 语音模式。要是我们早点聊就好了。但 ChatGPT 语音模式的问题是——它刚出时挺酷，可后来模型变聪明了，它却没跟上。而且它给我换了个新个性，每次问问题它都来一句“哦，对呀”，我得重新适应。

So I wish that Grok's voice mode. So I I wish that we'd had this conversation before then. But the thing about ChatGPT voice mode is yeah. I think when it first came out, it was cool, but it just hasn't gotten as smart as the models are are. And they they gave me this new personality that I had to get used to where every time you ask it a question, go it goes like, oh, yeah.

嗯哼。你知道，这就像是一种奇怪的Z世代风格，感觉它有点过于倦怠，或者好像它其实并不在乎你。我不知道那是什么，所以我得适应一下。

Uh-huh. Well, you know, and it's like it's just this, like, weird gen z thing that it feels like it's has a little bit too much ennui or something, like, doesn't actually care about you. I don't know what that is, so I had to get used to that.

Brock 有个‘stoner 模式’，就这点来说。是的。我得说，车载版让我很感兴趣。就在几周前最新的特斯拉更新里就有这个。你知道，我之前也做过你做的那件事：把手机插上蓝牙，然后尽力让它运作。

Brock has a stoner mode for what it's worth. Yeah. I will say, the car version is very interesting to me. Like, this was in the most recent Tesla release, like, a couple weeks ago. And, you know, I had been doing that same thing you did where you just plug your phone in and you put on Bluetooth and you, you know, do your best to make it work.

很有意思的是，只需按一个语音 AI 按钮，它就能同步回你常用的 Grok，但你无法重新加入旧对话。所以就像，嘿，我只能——但你知道，这些东西比 Siri 和其他那些强太多了。尤其是，如果你不只是想提一个简单问题，而是想深入聊点什么，那就完全不是一个级别，对吧？

And it's very interesting to just, have a voice AI button, and it syncs back to your regular Grok, but it you can't get you can't rejoin old chats. So it's just like, hey. I it's just like but, you know, I mean, these things are significantly better than Siri and all of these other things. And, particularly, I mean, you know, there's no comparison if you actually have something more than just a single question you want an answer to. Right?

比如，如果你真的想聊聊《伊利亚特》，或者聊聊 Transformer 和自注意力机制，我不知道，能直接按个按钮，然后在开车时利用这段时间，简直太棒了。我上周去某个地方的路上，就让它帮我做研究。我回到了瓦尔特·本雅明。我有个想法，想写一篇文章，讲人们对每一项新技术的反应本质上都是精英主义的批判。

Like, if you actually want to have a conversation about the ilead or, you know, about transformers and self attention, like, I don't know. It's pretty amazing to just be able to sort of, like, hit this button and yeah, use that car time. Mean, I was on my way somewhere last week and I was, you know, I was like having it researched. I was going back to the Walter Benjamin. I have this sort of idea to write a piece about how the reactions to every new technology are essentially elitist critiques of it.

你知道，总是那种‘哦不，现在所有人都能做这件以前只有我们能做的事了’。所以我在车里想着这个，我就让它去查，我说，好吧，我知道我多年没读瓦尔特·本雅明了——

And that, you know, it's always like, oh, no, everybody's going to be able to, like, do this thing that only we used to be able to do. And so, I was in the car and I was thinking about this, and so I had it go, and I was like, okay. You know, I know it's been years since I read the Walter Benjamin

《机械复制时代的艺术作品》那篇。对。

Mass production of images one. Yeah.

对，就是那篇。于是，我就跟它聊这个，我问‘瓦尔特·本雅明的同时代人都有谁？’接着我就深入到了所有……你知道，我就觉得这太神奇了。

Yeah. That that one. And, so, yeah, then I'm having a conversation about that, and I'm like, who are Walter Benjamin's contemporaries? And then I'm like into all the you know, and it's just like, I don't know. That's a I it that's amazing.

这是最棒的。真的最棒。嗯，我不知道。

It's the best. It's the best. Yeah. I don't know.

好的。所以你在用语音模式往大脑里塞各种东西，我很喜欢。但跟我们说说你的‘第二大脑’设置吧。或者我不知道你怎么称呼它，你觉得‘第二大脑’这词合适吗？我想了解你怎么用 Cloud Code 做笔记、做研究之类的。

Okay. And so you're filling your brain with all these things from voice mode, which I love. But tell us about your your second brain setup. Or I don't know how you I don't know how you refer to it, whether whether you think that second brain is appropriate for this, but I wanna know how you're using Cloud Code to take notes and do research and all that kind of stuff.

好。我可以直接打开它，也许这是最简单的办法。我就带你过一遍——我先从电脑开始，然后我们可以看手机。电脑这边分享起来容易多了。行，开始吧。

Yeah. So, you know, I could just open it up. Maybe that's the easiest thing to I'll just kind walk you through I'll start on my computer and then we can do the phone. The computer is just a way easier a way easier share here. So all right.

所以这就是我之前在做的东西。本质上，这只是 Claude code，它就直接跑在我的 Obsidian 上面。如果我切出来，随便做点操作，你能看到我在用 Para 方法，把所有资料都分门别类地整理好，放在该放的地方。

So this is what I was working on before. But essentially, this is just Claude code and it's just sitting on top of my Obsidian. So if I jump out here and I just do, like, you know, you can see I'm following the Para method. And, you know, I've just got everything sort of organized in here and put in the places that they need to be.

先让我打断一下，给听众解释一下。好，我们现在看到的是 Cloud Code。看起来你在 Obsidian 仓库里跑 Cloud Code，它正在往一条已有的笔记里追加内容，对吧？

Well, let me just let me just stop you for people who are listening. So okay. So we're looking at we're looking at Cloud Code. It sounds it seems like you have Cloud Code running in your Obsidian vault. And there's some kind of it's adding something to an existing it looks like it's adding something to an existing note.

是不是这样？我们看到的就这回事？

Is that that's what's going on? That's what we're looking at?

对。这次我是在准备一场演讲。两周后我自己的大会上要讲，主题是营销和 AI 的现状。先往前倒一点，我一直在办一个叫 brand.brxnd.ai 的系列会，专门聊营销和 AI。

Yeah. So in this particular one, I'm I'm working on this talk. So I I'm putting on my conference in two weeks. I'm giving this talk about marketing and AI and sort of what's going on. And I'm if we sort of jump back a second, I've been doing these conferences called brand, b r x n d dot a I, and they're about marketing and AI.

二月在洛杉矶办了一场，我当时讲的题目是这个——你肯定见过：战略服务办公室（OSS，CIA 的前身）出过一本《简易破坏现场手册》，用来教纳粹占领区的老百姓怎么偷偷搞破坏。里面给蓝领的建议是：清洁工就留一桶带油的废料，故意扔个烟头进去，让它烧起来……

And I did one in February in LA, and my talk in LA was about this. I'm sure you've seen it. It was the Office of Strategic Services, which was the precursor to the CIA, wrote this manual called the Simple Sabotage Field Manual. And it was essentially a manual to help citizen saboteurs in Nazi occupied territories, sort of, like, quietly sabotage, the the Nazi occupation. And, so it was like, you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff for blue collar workers that's like, if you're a janitor, you should leave a bucket of oily waste around and accidentally drop a cigarette in there so that, you know, it it will.

但给白领的那部分才精彩：凡事都推给委员会，已经拍板的决定也要再拿出来复盘，有人要做决定时你就劝他别操之过急，免得尴尬。我的演讲就想说，AI 也许能绕过这些大组织里的官僚主义，它像一团黏液，能渗进任何缝隙，输入输出都不挑，天然就是模糊接口。会后我发现这本手册是公版，于是请设计师印了 300 本，自己写了新序，会上免费送，演讲就把这些串在一起。

But then there's this amazing set of recommendations for white collar workers, and they're like, always refer things to committee, always revisit previously made decisions, make sure that, like, if somebody is trying to make a decision, you should suggest that they don't act with too much haste, less like we'd be embarrassed. So it's like, you know, my talk was about kind of how one hope I have is that AI can kind of, like, sidestep a lot of the bureaucracy that exists inside large organizations because it sort of has this, kind of, goo like effect where it can kind of fit into any crevice or crack because it can act as this fuzzy interface, it doesn't really care about the sort of inputoutput. And so the sort of next part of that story is after the conference, I realized that manual was in the public domain. So I hired a designer and I printed 300 copies, and I wrote a new forward for it. So we're giving this away at the conference, and so my talk is sort of trying to tie all these ideas together.

所以我从破坏手册出发，又深挖了 OSS 创始人“野比尔”多诺万的故事——OSS 可算是 CIA 和特种部队的祖宗。总之我在写演讲稿，就在 Obsidian 里建了个项目，把聊天记录、文章全拖进去。

So I'm trying to pull from the sabotage manual, and then I was doing a bunch of research into Wild Bill Donovan, who started the OSS. The OSS was sort of the precursor to both the CIA and the Special Forces. And so anyway, I'm writing this talk. And so I've got a project inside my Obsidian, which is the beginning of the research for this project. And I'm pulling in sort of like chats and articles and all these things.

接着我不断跟 AI 对话、给新点子：我需要结论，这是我对结论的初稿，让它记下来。每天结束再让 AI 总结当天学到的东西，好推着演讲往前走。

Then I'm constantly kind of talking to the AI in here and giving it new ideas. So I'm like, oh, I need some conclusions. Here's sort of my first thought on conclusions. And I'm having it note down the conclusions. And then at the end of each day, have the AI write up the changes that I sort of like, the things I learned that day that are going help me push this talk along.

你现在看到的就是这部分工作——我把想好的结论喂给它，全都躺在我 Obsidian 里那个演讲专属项目里。

And so that's what you're looking at right here is sort of, this is all part of this work that I've been doing, where I've been feeding it. I was working on sort of what are some of the conclusions I want it to be. And so this is all sitting in my obsidian inside a project specifically for that talk?

好，让我理一理，这挺有意思。也就是说，每当你有个新任务，比如要做演讲，你就开一个项目？

Okay. So let me get a clearer sense of this. This is really interesting. So you have a project. When you have a new thing, you're giving a talk.

你新建一个文件夹。然后当你在思考事情时，你会在文件夹里用 Claude code 工作。你会研究一些东西，然后说，比如，我想让你做笔记。在这个特定情况下，你知道你演讲的一部分是结论部分。所以有一个特定的 markdown 文件，你只是不断地和它来回互动，让它添加结论。

You make a new folder. And then as you're thinking about stuff, you're working with Claude code inside of the folder. And you're researching stuff and then saying, like, I want you to take notes on it. In this particular case, you know that a component of your talk is the conclusions section. And so there's one particular markdown file that, like, you're just going back and forth with it and having it add conclusions.

但是，那个文件夹里还有什么？所以是不是像有一个正文笔记和一个引言笔记？还是像？

But, like, what else is in that folder? So is it like there's a body there's a body note and then there's an intro note? Or is it like?

这里的一个重点是，我处于思考模式，而不是写作模式。所以我在某些地方明确告诉过，我想是在前言部分，我告诉 Claude Code，比如，现在不要帮我写任何东西。我通常觉得这些模型都有一个很大的问题，就是它们立刻就想帮你产出成果。而当你只是处于思考模式时，你必须非常明确地表达，嘿，我只是想让你帮我思考并向我提问。

So one of the big things here is that I'm in thinking mode, not writing mode yet. And so there's some stuff in here where I've specifically told, I think it's in the front matter actually, where I've told Claude Code, like, don't help me write anything right now. And I I generally find this to be a big thing with all these models is, like, they immediately jump to wanting to help you with the artifact. And, you know, when you're just in thinking mode, you have to be very explicit in, hey. I just want you to help me think and ask me questions.

所以，是的。你可以看到这里有很多文件。我有 chats，那就是我 literally 把在其他地方的聊天记录拿过来，然后用 Obsidian web clipper 把整个聊天拉进来。我有 daily progress，那是我让 AI 实际上浏览当天产生的所有笔记，然后帮我思考进展。

And so, yeah. What you can see here is, like, there's there's a bunch of files in here. I've got chats, so that's where I'm literally, like, taking chats I'm having in other things, and, I'm just, like, using the Obsidian web clipper to pull the whole chat in. I've got daily progress. That's where I'm having the AI actually, like, look through all the notes that came out that day and, like, help me think through the progress.

然后我有 research，那里有很多文章和 PDF 之类的东西，我已经拉进来并一直在阅读。然后还有一些其他比较随机的笔记，我一直在用它们来帮助我思考。所以，是的，我当时正在处理一个，我有这个结论笔记，我觉得我已经把演讲的大主题框出来了，但我在想，好吧，我得弄清楚最后要说什么。本质上，我最后要说的，是过去几年与这些大品牌合作 AI 项目时学到的一些东西。

And then I've got research. That's where I've got a bunch of, like, articles and PDFs and stuff that I've pulled in so far and been reading about. And then there's a bunch of other kind of random notes along here where I've been, you know, just using it to kind of help me think. So, yeah, I was in the midst of one, I've got this conclusion note, so I sort of felt like I had blocked out the big themes of the talk, but I was like, okay, I need to figure out what am I going to say at the end. And essentially, what I'm going to say at the end is about a lot of the stuff I've learned over the last few years of working with these large brands on AI projects.

所以我开始得出结论了。是的，我现在真的在把这些东西拼凑起来。这就是正在发生的事情。

And so I was starting to get it to the conclusions. And so, yeah, I'm just kind of like trying I'm really piecing all this stuff together right now. That's kind of what's happening.

那给我说说，当这个文件夹是空的时候，你一开始做了什么？

And give me a sense of, like, when this folder was empty, what did you start with?

我想我一开始告诉它，我现在是思考模式，不是写作模式。这是我最近在 Brand 做过的几场演讲，让你感受一下我的风格。然后这是我大致的想法和想讲的重点。对吧？我要送这本书，所以我想聊聊《简单破坏战手册》。

So I think I started with the the I started with telling it, like, I'm in thinking mode, I'm not in writing mode. Here are my past few talks that I've given at Brand to give you a sense of the sort of style that I have. And I here's the kind of general idea and the big points I wanna make. Right? Like, I'm giving away this book, so I wanna talk about Simple Sabotage Failed Manual.

我脑子里有个概念，有个标题，叫“Transformer 正在吞噬世界”。是的，这个想法是，这些模型正在取代一堆专门化的代码，这是目前非常有趣的现象之一。所以我想谈谈这个，然后我已经有了这些结论。

And I have this notion, like, have this it's kind of just a title. It's like transformers are eating the world. Yes. This idea that, like, one of the very interesting things happening with these models is they're sort of displacing a whole bunch of specialized code in places. And so I I sort of wanna talk about that, and then I've got these conclusions.

所以我说的第一件事是，嘿，去把我 Obsidian 里剩下的那大概 1500 条笔记全翻一遍，看看还有没有什么对我这次演讲有价值的东西。然后把这些内容先拉到研究文件夹里，给这个过程开个头。

And so the first thing I said was like, hey, just go look through all of the rest of my, you know, probably 1,500 things in my Obsidian and go see anything else you can find that might be of value to this talk of the existing things I have. And so just go kind of pull those in to the research folder at the beginning to kind of like jump start this process.

明白了。还有，Claude，你是在这个文件夹里启动它，还是在整个 Obsidian 仓库里启动，好让它能访问所有内容？

Got it. And you're starting are you starting, Claude, in this folder or are you starting it in your full Obsidian vault so that it can access all that stuff?

不是。我是在整个 Obsidian 仓库里启动的。所以，如果我们——比如，这是从根目录进来的，对吧，我们现在就在 Obsidian 的根目录里，所有东西都在这儿。我懂了。

No. I'm so I'm starting it in the full Obsidian vault. So, like, if we like, this is coming if I step out of here, right, We're in the root directory. All this stuff is in the root directory of my Obsidian. I get it.

而且我的 Obsidian 配置其实更复杂一点，因为我发现可以在里面加一个 package.json，加一堆自定义代码命令，然后就能运行这些命令，还能用斜杠命令之类的。所以这里还有很多别的组件，但总体还算简单直接。

And my Obsidian setup is also, like, a little more intense for what it's worth because, like, I've also realized, like, you can add a package dot JSON to add a bunch of, like, custom code commands to your Obsidian that you can then run, and then you could use those code commands and slash commands and all of these other things. So, you know, there are a bunch of other kind of moving pieces in here, But generally, it's a fairly straightforward

明白了。

Got it.

我是说，我在尝试用 Para 和一些别的小模块。

I mean, it's it's a I'm trying to use Para and some other kind of bits and pieces.

所以，对于正在收听或观看、觉得我们刚才一下子讲了很多内容的人来说，核心要点是：Obsidian 只是一个笔记应用，完全本地运行。你写的所有笔记其实都是你电脑上的文本文件，按文件夹组织。启动 Cloud Code 时，一种做法是在你具体项目的文件夹里启动；但听起来你做的是在 Obsidian 所有笔记的根目录启动。

So for people who are who are listening or watching and are like, we just went through a bunch of stuff really fast. So the basic gist is Obsidian is just like a a notetaker, notetaking app that runs it's all local. And so everything that all the notes you take, like, they they exist in essentially text files on your computer organized by folder. And when you're starting Cloud Code, one way to do it would be to start Cloud Code in the folder for the particular project that you have. But it sounds like what you're doing is instead you're starting it in the root directory where all of your Obsidian notes live.

这样做的好处是，Cloud Code 有一些沙箱限制，它本不该在启动目录之外执行命令，但可以在任何子文件夹里运行。听起来你这样做，它就拥有了整个 Obsidian 的访问权限，能做很多事。你还加了个 package.json，让它能运行自定义的软件命令。

And the advantage of that is Cloud Code has some, like, sandboxing things where it's like it's not really supposed to, like, run commands outside of the folder it was started in. It can run commands inside of any subfolder, but it sounds like what you're doing. So it has access to your entire Obsidian. It can do a bunch of stuff. And you've also added a package dot JSON, which lets it run, you know, custom software custom software commands, basically.

这真的非常有意思。好吧。你有没有发现——我自己也动过这个念头——让它帮我找相关内容，它找出来的东西真的相关、有趣吗？因为我以前用语言模型做类似事情时，它会说：哦，这个随机的东西相关，因为 XYZ。我能理解它为什么选它，但如果它真了解我和我感兴趣的东西，它肯定不会挑这个。你有这种情况吗？还是你找到了让它更相关的办法？想象一下，几分钟内从想法到上线网站，一行代码都不用写。Framer 就能做到。

That's really, really interesting. Okay. And do you do you find because I've sort of like had this as a twinkle in my eye to like have it go find relevant stuff for me. Do you find that it's actually relevant and interesting? Because I think sometimes when I've done this kind of thing before with language models, they're like, oh, yeah.

他们的零代码平台看起来、用起来都像设计工具，却能输出真正可用的网站，效果像开发者手写的。Framer 是设计优先的零代码建站工具，让任何人几分钟就能发布生产级网站。在 Ever，我们只有 15 名全职员工，却同时经营五六项内部业务，需要频繁建网站，我们就用 Framer。

Like, this random thing is relevant because x y z. Like, it doesn't feel like, I can understand why it picked it as being relevant, but if it really knew who I am and, like, what I think is interesting, it definitely would not have. Do you do you find that that's the case, or have you figured out a way to make it relevant? Imagine going from idea to live website in minutes without a single line of code. Framer lets you do just that.

他们的零代码平台看起来、用起来都像设计工具，却能输出真正可用的网站，效果像开发者手写的。Framer 是设计优先的零代码建站工具，让任何人几分钟就能发布生产级网站。在 Ever，我们只有 15 名全职员工，却同时经营五六项内部业务，需要频繁建网站，我们就用 Framer。

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Framer AI builds entire websites from a single prompt. Type modern SaaS landing page for a productivity app and watch it generate a structured site with a responsive layout, clean sections, and prefilled copy. After that, refine, style, and publish. It's also really powerful. You can create buttery smooth effects and micro interactions with just simple sliders.

需要面向全球受众？一键即可把整个网站——包括每一页、每一条 URL 段——翻译成任意语言。准备上线时，只需点一次“发布”。背后，Framer 会搞定托管、极速加载和 SEO 优化，让你从构思到上线全程掌控。

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No developer required. Ready to make a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for free at framer.com and use the code dan to get your first month of pro on the house. Rules and restrictions may apply. And now back to the episode.

大体上我同意你的看法。这次演讲里，“相关性”相对简单，因为我要讲的主题正是我此前大量思考和研究过的。我并不是让它做巨大的概念跳跃，而是说：去把我 Obsidian 里所有提到《简单破坏战地手册》的笔记、文章都找出来。

I think by and large, yes, I agree with you. I think in this case, relevance is a little simpler since, like, ultimately, this talk is sort of the the things I were asked was asking you to look for, I've done a bunch of thinking and research around. So it's like, I'm not asking it to make large conceptual leaps to relevance. It's like, go find all this like, wanna talk about a simple sabotage field manual. It can literally just do a, like, find for all the times, all the articles, and things I've got in my obsidian about that.

所以“相关性”这个词其实挺重的。我认同你的观点，但我现在让它做的事更简单：在我已有的资料里，把当初促使我思考这些问题的笔记全部翻出来。

And so it it relevance is kind of a loaded term, right? And I agree with what you're saying. Think this is what I'm asking it to do is much more simple, which is like amongst this set of things, go find all the notes that I've already researched that kind of brought me to be thinking about these things to begin with.

明白了。等它完成这些检索后，你有没有让它做某种总结，来刺激你，比如“根据你过去的研究，这里有几个可展开的切入点”？你下一步做了什么？

Got it. And then once you had to do all that research, did you have it do any sort of summary to, like, let you, like, sort of stimulate you to be like, okay, here are the here are some jumping off points based on what you've done before. What was your next step once you once you No.

下一步是我其实在这里有一个 agent。我们来看——我先用 continue。

So my next step is I actually have an agent in here. So if we go to I'll do continue for now.

给听众解释一下：你现在启动 Claude，用了 continue 标志，也就是接着上次的会话继续。ClaudeCode 支持子 agent，你可以派生出多个“小 Claude”。

And so for people who are listening, so you're just starting up Claude, you're using the continue flag. So you're you're starting Claude by continuing the last session that you were in. And now you've got and you ClaudeCode gives us the ability to do sub agents. So those are, like, little mini Claude's that you can spawn. And you

你有一个“思考伙伴”子 agent。

have a you have a thinking partner one.

思考伙伴子 agent。好的，它是怎么运作的？

Thinking partner sub agent. Okay. How does that work?

是的。所以这就是我所说的，嘿，你是一个协作思维伙伴，专门帮助人们探索复杂问题。你的角色是促进思考，基本上不要试图去写那东西。所以在我有了最初的那一套东西之后，我转向这个，就像是，好了，让我们进入状态。问我那种问题。

Yeah. And so this is the whole thing where I'm like, Hey, you're a collaborative thinking partner specializing in helping people explore complex problems. Your role is to facilitate thinking, and basically don't try to write the thing. And so after I had that initial set of things, I flipped to this and it's like, okay, let's get into a flow. Ask me the kinds of questions.

帮我一起思考。你知道，这也是我在这里有聊天记录文件夹的地方。所以，这不仅仅是在这里发生。我还在进行，抱歉，我只是退出来一下。

Help me think through it. You know, this is also where I've got a chats folder in here. So it's like, it's not just happening here. I was also having like a I've got a whole, Sorry. I'm just backing out.

所以，比如，如果我们进入聊天记录，这些就是我进行的一堆聊天。嗯。

So, like, if we go into if we go into chats, like, these are a whole bunch of the chats that I had. Mhmm.

像是和采访者？

Like with the interviewer?

不是。这些是我和ChatGPT、Claude、Grock以及所有这些不同的东西进行的聊天，我只是把完整的对话记录抓了下来。所以，你知道，我也在进行所有这些其他的对话。然后，你知道，我特别告诉采访者，像是，回顾所有这些其他的东西。所以实际上，你知道，我认为第一个，这些对话中有一个是我最初有了这个想法，关于transformers正在吞噬世界。

No. These are chats I was having with ChatGPT and Claude and Grock and all of these different things that I went and just grabbed the full transcript of. So, you know, I was also having all these other conversations. And then, you know, I'm specifically telling the interviewer, like, review all these other things. So actually, you know, I think the first one, there's, one of these conversations is I originally had this idea about transformers are eating the world.

而且，你知道，那个概念就像是，你知道，几个月前有一些研究出来，我想，他们发现，他们能够在某些专门的时间序列建模模型上用transformers表现得更好。而且，我觉得这真的很有趣。你知道，有一个关于特斯拉用神经网络删除了30万行代码的故事。而且，你知道，我只是有一些零零碎碎的片段。而我通常工作的一种方式就是，当我有一个想法要写或思考时，我会在ChatGPT或Claude里开一个线程，然后我会把它保存在某个地方。

And, you know, that sort of notion there is like, you know, there was some research that came out, I think, a few months ago that, they had found, they were able to sort of outperform some specialized, time series modeling, models with transformers. And, like, I think there's really interesting stuff. Know, there's a story about Tesla removing 300,000 lines of code with a neural network. And, you know, I've just got kind of got these bits and pieces. And one of the ways I work generally is, like, when I have an idea of something to write or think about, I'll start a thread in ChatGPT or Claude, and I'll then save that somewhere.

然后我就会在有更多想法时不断回到那里。就像是，哦，这是transformers做某事的又一个例子。所以这些对话中有一个其实是那个东西，你知道，大概四五个月前，当那个想法最初出现在我脑海里时，也许是我看到关于时间序列建模的研究时。

And then I'll just kind of keep coming back to it when I have more ideas. It's like, oh, here's another example of transformers doing something. And so one of these conversations is actually that thing from, you know, probably four or five months ago when that kind of idea initially came into my head, maybe when I saw the research about time series modeling or something.

真的很有趣。好的。好的。那让我们继续。所以你已经有了那个子代理。

Really interesting. Okay. Okay. So let's let's keep going. So you've got you've got the sub agent.

而且我实际上，我想，先停一下，我觉得这是一个非常常见的抱怨，就是他们直接跳进去，这是一个常见的模式，去制造一个思考代理。而且我觉得Claude Code或者一般来说Claude可能是这方面最好的。所以这是我们孵化的一个应用Spiral所面对的问题，它是一个代理式代笔作家。而且我觉得我们发现了——我在思考时也发现了同样的问题，好的，一个好的代笔作家是怎么工作的？他们不会只是像你说的，嘿，我想让你写一篇博客文章。

And I actually I wanna, like, just actually, I wanna pause on that real quick, which is I think this is a very common complaint that they just dive in, and it's a common pattern to make a thinking agent. And I think Claude Code or Claude in general is probably the best one for this. So this is a thing that we faced with one of the apps that we've incubated called Spiral, which is a agentic ghostwriter. And I think we found I found the same kind of thing when when I was thinking about, okay, how does a good ghostwriter work? They don't just like you don't say, hey, I want you to write a blog post.

他们就，好，我写完了，给你。一个好的代笔作家会去了解你，并且真正地——你们会一起弄清楚你脑子里关于它的想法，但也会塑造你脑子里的想法。就像是，不是，哦，我看见了，而且，像是，他们需要把它从你身上引出来。

They're just like, cool. I made it. Here it is. Like, a good ghostwriter is gonna get to know you and really under you're gonna you're gonna work together to figure out what's in your head about it, but also shape what's in your head. Like, it's not just, oh, I I can see it, and, like, I'm they need to get it out of you.

就像，你们其实是在一起创造。而要做到这一点，你必须有一个非常棒的、基础的访谈流程去挖掘东西。听起来你也发现了这一点。我觉得这真的、真的很有趣，也对那些在想“我怎样才能把AI用到极致”的人非常重要。其实先停一下，让它先理解你。

Like, you're you're actually making it together. And in order to do that, you have to have a really good inter basic interview process to uncover things. And that sounds like you found that too. And I think that's really, really interesting and really important for people who are thinking about how do I get the best out of AI. Actually, stop for a second and, like, let it ask it to understand you first.

是啊。我常对很多人说，我觉得部分是因为我们叫它“生成式”，大家太关注它写作的能力，而太少关注它阅读的能力。它的阅读能力简直惊人，对吧？我觉得这 arguably 在日常中更有用。我们产出成果的频率远低于我们思考事情的频率。

Yeah. One of the things I say to a lot of people is just, like, I think partially because we call it generative, there's entirely too much focus on its ability to write and not enough focus on its ability to read. It's like its ability to read is incredible, right? And I think arguably sort of like much more useful on a day to day basis. Like we produce artifacts far less frequently than we just like think about things.

所以，对，我经常这么做。这确实是我对所有模型的一个吐槽：即使你非常明确地告诉它别替你干活，它还是常常试图替你干活。于是你得真的、真的强调：不，我说了不。我觉得，如果我们看看，所以这里。

And so yeah, I do this a lot. This is definitely a complaint I have about all the models is like, you know, even when you very specifically tell it not to try to do your work, it still often still tries to do your work. And so you have to like really, really be like, no. I said no. Like, I think, actually, if we look at, so here.

关键。当Noah说他只是在收集原始材料，或者我无论如何都不

Critical. When Noah says he's just collecting source materials or I do not under any sort

暗示

of tip,

我只想让你字面理解。不要创建大纲、草稿或任何版本的演讲稿。只收集并整理我要求的材料。

I just want you to try to write it. Take this literally. Do not create outlines, drafts, or any versions of talkswriting. Only gather and organize the requested materials.

太棒了。我喜欢。

So good. I love it.

嗯。这就像——但，对，我觉得我们都经历过。我也希望随着时间推移，这能被内建到模型里。我觉得这是模型公司之间一个很有趣的张力，因为显然，很多经济投入产出是以它产出的成果来衡量的。所以我觉得它非常以产出为导向，我怀疑部分原因是那种“乐于助人的助手”形象已经成了一个被自我吸收的梗。

Yeah. This is like but, yeah, I think, you know, I think we all experience that. And, you know, I mean, I I do hope over time that that sort of gets baked into the models. I think it's a very interesting tension that exists with the model companies because, like, obviously, you know, like, sort of a lot of the economic input output is sort of measured in the artifacts that it produces. And so I think it's very oriented, and, you know, I I suspect that part of it is just like that sort of the helpful assistant thing has, like, come to be a sort of meme that is probably self ingested.

但，对，对于我们这些想用模型做更有趣事情的人来说，这成了工作中一个真正的障碍。

But, yeah, it's it's, I think for those of us who are trying to do more interesting things with these models, it it becomes a a real barrier to work.

完全同意。好，那现在我想问问，当你使用那个“思考代理”时，它是不是会把你们在某个节点达成的结论输出成某种摘要？

Totally. Okay. So now I wanna think about when you're using the thinking agent, did you say it, like, it's is it outputting some sort of summary of what you've come to into a particular place?

对。所以那个思考代理被要求在向我提问时，把问题记下来，并持续记录我挖掘到的内容、我的思路等等。

Or Yeah. So that thinking agent is sort of told to, as it asks me questions, kinda make notes about the questions that it's asking me and keep a kind of running log of what I'm uncovering and how I'm thinking about it and all those sorts of things.

明白了。然后第二天你回来，说，哦，我就是想沿着这个关于“狂野比尔”家伙的兔子洞深挖一下。于是你新开一个聊天，可能带着子视角，也可能不带，这就成了关于这个话题的一个新文件？

Got it. And then, you know, you come back the next day and you're like, oh, I just wanna go down this rabbit hole on x y z thing about the, you know, this wild bill guy. And that you start in a new chat, maybe with it, maybe with the sub vision, maybe maybe not, and that becomes its own new file on that topic?

对，完全正确。我这些“狂野比尔”的内容最初是在 CHADGPT 里做深度研究，我得出去找资料。我现在正在读那本《狂野比尔》的传记，有一本特别有名的。

Yeah. Exactly. So like I I this the the Wild Bill stuff started as, like, deep research in CHADGPT, and I, you know, had to go out. And I'm reading the Wild Bill book right now. There's a, like, one sort of particularly famous biography of him.

我在把碎片拼起来，试图建立联系——我觉得我发现了一个有趣的连接：他通过战略情报局（OSS）以及特种部队灵感所追求的一大主题，其实是“赋能个体”。那本手册的核心就是赋能公民破坏者；而特种部队也是要在边缘拥有超强单兵，他们虽在指挥体系内，却拥有极大自主权，因为他们具备所需的一切。所以在研究“狂野比尔”时，我回头想：这会不会是把所有想法串起来的有趣方式？当然，现在还早，结论还没固化。

And, you know, I'm kinda thinking about the bits and pieces and trying to make and I I think I made a kind of interesting connection in there, where, you know, a big part of what sort of he seems to have been after with the OSS and and, you know, the sort of inspiration for the special forces was, like, empowering individuals. You know, that's sort of like the theme of that manual was, like, obviously, empowering citizen saboteurs. But also, you know, I think a big part of the special forces is, like, you know, having kind of, like, incredible operators at the edge who, you know, obviously operate within a sort of command and control hierarchy, but, like, have a ton of autonomy to move and execute independently because they're kind of they have all the things that they need. And, so, you know, in all of that WildBill research, I kind of went back to this, and I was like, is this, like, an interesting way to connect all these ideas that, like, maybe kind of there's a you know, and again, this is still early. I have not, like, solidified these conclusions.

这就是常规写作流程，对吧？但我觉得有一个观点：从根本上说，Transformer 把我们从顺序模型带到了能并行工作的模型，这显然让我们得到了更强大、更有趣的模型，也基本上点燃了我们俩赖以生存的这场革命。所以我觉得这里有个有趣的连接。

This is like, you know, the regular kind of writing process. Right? But it's like, well, I think there's this idea that, like, you know, fundamentally well, I know, you know, fundamentally, one of the big things with transformers is it moved us from sequential based models to models that can act in sort of paralyze their work better. And that obviously allowed us to have much more powerful and interesting models and has arguably kicked off this entire sort of revolution of what's going on and what we both do for a living. And so I think there's this kind of interesting connection.

所以当时我就在玩这个：从顺序处理到并行处理的连接，再到官僚体制，再到“狂野比尔”——他似乎很擅长在体系内运作，却在边缘拥有自主。于是我就是边记笔记边玩。然后我会跳出来：结论还没想好，先开一版结论放一边。

So that was what I was playing with, I think, here was like, oh, maybe there's this connection between kind of sequential processing to this kind of parallel. And then there's this connection to bureaucracy. And then there's this connection to Wild Bill, who seems to be have been very much about sort of, like, working within a system, but, having autonomy at the edges. And so that's kind of what I was playing with and just kind of taking notes. And then, yeah, I would jump out and be like, oh, well, actually, haven't figured out a conclusion yet.

我还有工作，不能一直干这个，所以经常被打断。能回来问一句“能给我总结一下过去三天的研究吗？”就太爽了。

Let me start the conclusion section, and I'll just sort of get that going on the side. And then, you know, I I have a job, so I can't be doing this all the time. So it's also like you interrupt yourself, and it's really nice to be able to come back and be like, you know, can you catch me up on the last three days of research?

哇，我喜欢这个问题，太酷了。

Oh, I love that question. That's so cool.

对，你就直接问：“能给我总结一下过去几天的研究吗？”它会去把所有文件读一遍。正如你前面说的，会找相关来源。我觉得现在做得好的人，一部分原因就是他们对模型能力的边界有感觉，并鼓励模型在边界内工作。比如这个任务就非常轻松——我们知道它肯定能干。

And so, yeah, you can just kind of go in and be like, can you catch me up on the last few days of research? And it's just going to go read all this stuff, right? And again, it's like, I think the point you made earlier about the, you know, go find relevant sources. It's like, I find a lot that the difference between the people are getting a lot of this right now is part of it is just like, you have a good feel for where the edges of the capabilities of these models are, and you sort of, like, encourage them to work within those capabilities. Like, this is an incredibly easy you know, it's like, we know what it's gonna do here.

对吧？它能写所有这些 Unix 命令，就是去那个目录按日期找文件，把最近项目里生成的文件全看一遍，我们知道它做得到。于是它总结说，“把官僚体制视为位置编码”这一主要突破日还在进行中，但我挺喜欢。能这样回顾深度工作，真的很惊人。

Right? Like, could write all these Unix commands. It's just gonna go find a bunch of files in this directory, and it's gonna look at them by date, and it's gonna look at all the files created in that project over the last you know, and we know it's gonna be able to do that. And so it's saying, you know, the major breakthrough day was this idea of bureaucracy as positional encoding, which is very much a work in progress idea, but I kind of like it. But, you know, so it's just like, it's pretty amazing also to just be able to kind of revisit deep work like this, right?

你知道，在那个地方你会打断自己的思路。而且我发现，无论是写代码还是写作，最难的部分就是重新进入状态，因为你已经不在那个状态里了。所以只要能重启这个过程，就很神奇。我觉得我在这里想探讨的是，官僚主义其实是一种创新，对吧？我们通常把官僚主义看作负面，谈论时也多带贬义，很多时候它确实是负面的。

Where, you know, you know you're gonna break your flow. And it's often, I find, whether it's code or writing, the hardest part is just picking it up again because you're out of it. And so just to kick start that process is sort of amazing. I think what I was playing with here is this idea that bureaucracy was actually like an innovation, right? That like, we look at bureaucracy as a negative, and generally we talk about it as a negative, and I think often it is a negative.

但你知道，官僚主义其实是公司运作方式上的一项巨大创新。它最终代表了层级、结构以及一大堆在大规模运作时其实相当正面的东西。所以，我关于AI和这些官僚主义议题的核心论点是，有趣的是，过去的科技往往逼你做选择：要么沿用现有结构并把技术嵌进去，要么采用新结构。大多数时候，新软件要求你采用新结构，这也是为什么那么多软件项目长期失败。

You know, bureaucracy was a sort of like huge innovation for how companies operate. Right? And ultimately, it sort of represents kind of hierarchy and structure and a whole bunch of things that are like actually like pretty positive for operating at a large scale. So, again, my kind of whole thesis on AI around all this bureaucracy stuff is that what's interesting about it is that as opposed to kind of past technologies, which kind of forced you to make a decision about whether you wanted to kind of like use your existing sort of structure and build that technology into your existing structure or adopt the new structure. Most of the time, the new software required you adopted the new structure, and that's why so many sort of software projects failed for so long.

至少这是我看法的一部分。我觉得AI最有趣的地方在于，它可以让大家继续按自己喜欢的方式工作。你知道，大公司里一个经典难题是：一个团队想用Asana，一个想用Jira，一个想用Linear。于是某个大项目来了，请了家大咨询公司，决定全部统一到某一个工具。

At least that's sort of part of what I think. And, you know, I think part of what's interesting about AI, what I find so interesting is like that you can kind of keep letting everybody work in whatever way they want. You know, it's like a classic problem inside large companies is like one team wants to use Asana and one wants to use Jira and one wants to use Linear. Right? And so then at some point, there's like a there's a there's a huge project, and they bring in some big consulting firm, and they decide they're gonna all centralize on this one thing.

结果三分之二的人都不开心。大家都做出了牺牲，你陷入一个非常不理想的状态。我觉得AI真正有趣的地方在于——这还有点理论性，因为我们还在早期——很可能你可以说：大家继续按自己的方式做，我们在中间塞几个模型。

And now two thirds of the company is unhappy. Mhmm. And, like, they've all made sacrifices, and, you know, you're sort of in this, like, very non ideal state. And I think what's really interesting about AI, and I I this is a little more sort of theoretical because I think, know, we're so early in this, is that, like, I think it's very possible you could just say, well, everybody just keep doing what you're doing. We're gonna stick sort of some models in the middle.

它们不在乎你用什么，因为对它们来说都只是数据结构。于是我们可以有这样一个中心枢纽。回想我们一开始提到的Percolate，它是一个内容营销平台，服务大公司，是企业软件。说到底，企业软件的根本挑战就是采用和变更管理。

They don't care what you use because, like, it's all just data structures to them. And so we can then have this sort of central thing. And if, you know, I when we talked about Percolate at the beginning, Percolate was a content marketing platform, worked with very large companies. So it's an enterprise software product. And it's like, you know, at the end of the day, this is sort of the fundamental challenge of enterprise software is about, like, you know, adoption and change management.

我只是觉得——也是我的希望，乐观主义者的那一面——AI让我们不必太担心这些事。与其让所有人改变工作方式，不如让他们保持原样，让AI去……我把它叫做‘托马斯英式松饼理论’，就是AI能钻进那些缝隙里。所以……总之，我还没搞懂‘官僚主义作为位置编码’到底什么意思，希望两周内弄明白，得在那场演讲前。

I just think, I think and I hope, and, again, this is sort of the the optimist in me that, like, AI kind of lets us just not worry so much about these things. And rather than trying to make everybody change the ways that they work, kind of let them work in these ways and let AI sort of it's my I I call it my Thomas's English muffin theory of AI, which is that it, like, gets into the nooks and crannies. And so, yeah. That's so anyway but I have no idea what bureaucracy as positional encoding means yet. I'm hoping I figure it out in the next two weeks before I have to give this talk.

我觉得——不，但你刚才说的完全对，而且其实不必是理论。我在Every内部也看到了，一直想写这件事。我们Every运营六个不同产品，只有15个人，产品与人头比简直疯狂。

I think no. But I I think the point you just made is is totally right, and it's actually not it doesn't have to be theoretical. Like, I I've been seeing this too inside of Every, and I've been meaning to write about it. And the the place that it's been coming up is we have so inside of Every, we run, like, six different products, and we have 15 people. So it's it's like a crazy product to headcount ratio.

有趣的是，我非常喜欢自下而上的做法。每个产品都有自己的技术栈，我们没有统一到某个特定栈。负责每个产品的总经理自己决定用Rails还是TypeScript之类的。我现在看到很酷的现象是，不同产品会碰到想解决的相似问题。

And what's interesting is I really like doing things in a in a bottom up way. So everyone each of the products has its own stack. We're not, like, centralized into a particular stack. Each, you know, GM that runs a product, like, just has made a decision about do I run Rails or TypeScript or whatever. And what I'm seeing happen, which is very cool, is a lot of the different products are running into similar things they wanna solve for.

举个简单的例子，我们有个产品叫Sparkle，有点像Finder或Spotlight的替代品。它整理你的文件，然后实现超快的Spotlight搜索。

So an easy example is we have one product called Sparkle, which is a little bit like a a finder replacement or spotlight replacement. So it it it organizes your files, and then it implements really fast spotlight search.

我是用户，我很喜欢。

I'm a user. I like it.

好的。所以你知道的。这真的很酷。Agentic 搜索即将上线，快来看看吧。

Okay. So then you you you know. And so that's really cool. And agentic search coming soon. Check it out.

我们正在开发一个新产品、新 GM、新栈，叫 Para，本质上是一个内部法律顾问。它是 paralegal 的缩写，不是像 Tiago Forte 那种 Para。Para 的全部工作就是：把你所有的法律文件放进去，每当我有问题，比如“我们签过这份合同吗？”或者“员工协议模板是什么？”它就直接给出答案，其实就是 Claude Code 跑在一个目录上。我们为此需要实现一种快速的文件搜索。

And and we're just building a new product, new GM, new stack called Para, which is essentially an in in house counsel. So it's short for paralegal, not para like, you know, Tiago Forte Para. And the whole job for Para is just, you know, take all of your legal files and whenever I have a question and be like, okay, do do we ever sign this contract or what's the employee agreement template or whatever? It just gives you the answer, and it's just Claude code sitting on top of a directory. And and a thing that we needed to implement for that is this sort of like fast file file search.

有趣的是，过去如果我们想复用 Sparkle 文件搜索的经验，就得把它抽象成模块化库，让大家都能用，还得在同一平台，等等。现在我们没这么做，只是把目前负责 Para 的开发者 Preeti 加到 Sparkle 仓库，我跟她说：直接问 Claude Code 搞懂原理，然后自己实现一份。

And what's really interesting is, historically, if we wanted to reuse the stuff that we learned from implementing Sparkle's file search, that would have to be abstracted out into this modular library that anyone can use, and then we have to be on the same platform and, like, all those things. Right? And what we did instead is we just added Preeti, who's the developer for for for Pera right now. We just added her to the Sparkle repo. And I was just like, just ask Claude code to figure out how it works and just do your own version.

于是就有了这种隐性的代码共享，大家共同进步，却不用费劲做抽象和模块化，因为能那么做的事比例很低，成本太高。我到处看到这种情况：一堆仓库在不同环境用不同方式解决相似问题，大家却因为 AI 能“翻译”而变得更高效。

And so you get this, like, sort of tacit code sharing where we all get better, but without having to do the work of abstracting and modularizing everything because the the percentage of things that you can do that for are pretty low because it's a it's a heavy lift. And I'm seeing that happen all the time where just having a bunch of repos that are all solving similar problems but in different environments in different ways, everyone gets more productive because AI can kind of translate.

我们也有类似做法。Elephic 给很多大品牌做开发，搞各种 AI 项目，内外仓库一大堆，经常遇到同样场景。其实我用 GitHub MCP 做过类似的事：在 Cursor 或 Claude Code 里直接说，嘿，去我们内部工具 Intelligence 的仓库看看，把那边的实现搬过来用。

One thing we've done there, we also So at Elephic, we do a whole bunch of building for very large brands. And so we sort of build all kinds of AI things. And, you know, so we we've got lots of sort of internal and external repos, and we frequently have the same thing. And actually, I've used the GitHub MCP a few times for that same purpose, which is just like, you know, you're just in cursor, cloud code, whatever, and you're like, hey. Can you go, like, look up, we run we've got an internal tool called Intelligence that just sort of is a wrapper around a whole bunch of, like, stuff that we use.

这个工具集成了 CRM 等功能，是我们公司运营和实验的游乐场。我常让 AI 去 Intelligence 仓库看看我之前怎么实现某个功能，把最佳实践搬过来。对，我真的很认同这种思路。

Right? So it's, like, got some CRM stuff, and it's it's just, like, been a a fun place to build the things that we need to run our company. But it's also a good place to kind of experiment and explore and figure out solutions to interesting problems. And so I'll frequently be like, oh, can you go to, like, just go look at the intelligence repo and, know, look at how I implemented that thing there and take those sort of best practices and just pull them over. And yeah, I think that stuff, again, that's where I really do believe in this idea.

每次见客户破冰时我都会问：你的 AI 顿悟时刻是什么？我的可能不是最早，但印象最深：大概两年半前 ChatGPT 插件刚开放，我拿到了内测资格。

I like one of my Whenever we have like a client meeting or something, the the icebreaker I always use is, what was your moment with AI? Mine was, I mean, it was probably not the very first, but it's the one that sort of, I think was most impactful was I was, I got access to build a ChatGPT plugin when plugins came out in like, two and a half years ago or something now.

你是说五十年前吧？

You mean fifty years ago?

五十年前。我跟你一样写过很多年代码，拿到新东西第一反应就是读 API 文档找契约，只要按契约来就能跑。

Fifty years ago. And, you know, I I like you, I've I've written a lot of software in my life, and I you know, you know what you do when you, like, get access to something new. It's like, I've gotta go read the API docs and figure it out. And, you know, I'll like, there's a gonna be a contract. And, you know, as long as you follow that contract, it works.

结果插件规范说：只要在应用根目录放个 manifest.json，描述你想怎么收数据、怎么回数据，剩下的我们来搞定。我当时就觉得：太棒了，世界就该这样运转，我希望所有接口都这么简洁。

And I go read the plugin spec, and it basically is like, oh, you just stick a manifest dot JSON file in the root directory of your application. And in that, you describe how you want us to send you data and you describe how you're gonna send it back to us, and then we'll deal with the rest. And I was just like, that's amazing. It's also like, it it's how the world should work. Like, I wish everything worked that way.

我真希望自己不必总是遵守那家大公司关于收发数据的合同条款。但那一刻真正打动我的，也是我一直以来的口号，就是它从根本上违背直觉——我积累了整整职业生涯的直觉来集成软件系统，而这件事却把它彻底颠覆了，整整180度，完全背离我对软件系统集成的直觉。从那以后，我对大家说的都是：这玩意儿现在就是不直观——但这并不是坏事。

I wish I didn't always have to adhere to the big company's contract for how to send and receive data. But also, like, I the thing that really struck me in that moment, and it's, like, been my kind of, like, rallying cry around all this stuff is that, it's also just, like, fundamentally counterintuitive in that, like, I literally have a career's worth of intuition for how to integrate software systems. And it flipped it on its head, like like like, quite literally a 180 degrees away from my intuition of how software systems should be integrated was this thing. And that, I think since then, been my kind of thing for everybody has been like, this is just not intuitive for now. And and that's not a bad thing.

它只是意味着你得重新建立直觉，而我们正在做的就是这个，对吧？所以，我不知道，我喜欢你正在做的事，也喜欢你播客里说的那些话；本质上，我们都是在第一次摸索这些东西。

It just means like you need to build intuition. And like, that's what we're all just out there trying to do with it. Right? And so, you know, when I don't know. I mean, part of what I like about what you're doing and, you know, even just hearing the things you're saying, but like generally what you do with the podcast and what you do with every is, like so much of it is, like, we're all kind of just figuring stuff out for the first time.

对吧？我们就像：这能行吗？然后突然之间，你就对“一台非确定性的电脑能干什么”有了新的直觉。我觉得我们一直都在干这个，也因此才这么有趣。

Right? And, like, you know, we're like, oh, will this work? And then, like, all of a sudden, you have this new bit of intuition for what these things can do and what a computer that is not deterministic looks like. And that's I think that's just what we're all doing all the time. And that's why it's so fun, I think.

所以我才爱这一刻：你冒出个奇怪的想法，然后问“有人这么干过吗？”——答案是“没有”。这想法并不复杂，只是全新的疆域，你懂吧？

That's why I love this moment because, like, you just have a weird idea and you're like, has anyone done this before? And and it's like, no. And it's not a it's not a complicated idea. It's just it's just a new whole new territory. You know?

对对，我老这么想。其实我觉得外面有个挺有害的观念：很多人以为我们在这条路上已经走了很远。我们合作的都是财富50强那种巨头，跟组织内部的人聊时，很多人觉得自己早就被甩在后面了。

I yes. I I think about that all the time. And I think actually, like, I think one of the really damaging sort of things out there is that I think there are a lot of people who think we're way further along in this than we are. And so I think particularly the people who are sort of scared, we work with like Fortune 50 companies. And so when we're sort of like out there and we're talking to people inside the organization, a lot of people feel like they've already been left behind.

而且就像，不，你真的可以登录 ChadGPT，然后做点还没人想过用它做的事，因为可探索的空白太多了，你或许会发现一种全新的用法，或者全新的技巧。我不知道。我只是觉得——而且，你知道，我觉得对某些人来说，这确实挺吓人的。我觉得这些模型本身也没怎么帮新手入门，就像，人们上去让它写首诗，它写了，你就想‘好吧，它给我写了首诗’。但我不知道。

And it's like, no, you can like literally go sign in to ChadGPT and like do something like nobody's thought about doing with this thing yet because there's just so much white space to explore, and and you might discover some totally new way of using it and or, like, totally new trick. And, I don't know. That's just that's and, you know, I think to be fair to some people, that's sort of very intimidating. And I don't think by and large, the models do any favors to themselves in helping those people get their feet wet in that, like, you know, I think people go on there and they it's you like you ask it to write you a poem, and then it writes you a poem, and you're like, okay, it wrote me a poem. But, I don't know.

就是那种——就是那种站在前沿的感觉，对吧？

That feeling of, like that feeling of, yeah, it's like being on the frontier. Right?

完全同意。而且，是的，我觉得你说的关于直觉、培养直觉的点很关键。我们没意识到的是，当你面对一种全新的东西时，你不能只靠既有的推理方式，因为你得先建立直觉，才能去推理它意味着什么、怎么融入、管不管用。我们平常不这样，因为我们习惯对已有直觉的事物做推理。

Totally. And, yeah, I I think that your point about intuitions and getting intuitions is the big thing. And I think people what we don't realize is when you're dealing with something fundamentally new, you you can't trust, like, how you reason about it without experiencing it. Because you have to build the intuition in order to be able to reason about what it means and and how it fits in and whether it works or not. And we're just not used to that because we're used to reasoning about things we already have an intuition for.

所以我想，当你第一次看见 Judd Deep TV 时，可能会想‘天哪，它什么都能干，一年后我们就没工作了’。结果三年过去了，我们现在觉得‘嗯，它真棒’。

And and I think that's why, like, when you first see maybe when you first saw Judd Deep TV, like, oh my god. It can do everything. Like, we're not gonna have jobs in a year. And now we're, like, three years in, and we're like, yeah. It's awesome.

而工作是很复杂的，我们要处理很多复杂的东西。你知道，我很喜欢这一点：要建立直觉，你只需要去用它；只要用，你就已经站在前沿了。

And jobs are complicated. There's a lot of complex stuff that we do. You know? And I I love I love kind of that, you know, in order to build the intuition, all you have to do is is use it. And that just by using it, you're already kind of on the edge for now.

嗯，是的，我觉得那是最好的。

And, yeah, I think that's the best.

显然，德语里有个词叫Fingerspitzengefühl。当然有啦，就是“指尖感觉”。我一直在培养这种直觉，而且因为我实在忍不住——我也在你讨论的那个领域里——我一直在做大量类比，对吧？就像……你知道，这真的很难，但有两个类比最打动我：一个是我经常和孩子一起看YouTube，我们看一个频道叫Veritasium，是个科学频道。

There's apparently there's a a German word called Fingerspitzengefuhl. Of course, there is. Building fingertip feeling, and that's been my Just because I can't resist also, I'm in that whole in sort of the realm that you're discussing, like, I've been trying to do a lot of analogizing, right? It's sort of like, and I think, you know, that's really hard and, you know, but my two that have sort of stuck the most, one is just, I watch a lot of YouTube with my kids, and we watch this channel called Veritasium. It's a science channel.

我超爱Veritasium。对，太棒了。他做过一期，造了一辆自行车：你想往右拐时它锁死左转，想往左拐时锁死右转。他想证明的是，除非你能让车右转，否则你根本没法左转——我们骑车时谁也不会想这些，全靠直觉和本能。所以你也无法用语言教孩子怎么骑车。

I love Veritasium. Yeah, it's great. And he did one where he built a bike that locks out left if you try to turn right and locks out right if you try to turn left. And what he's proving is that you can't actually turn a bike left unless you can turn it right, which none of us would think about when we ride a bike because it's all just second nature and intuition. But it's also why you can't explain to a child how to ride a bike.

他们只能上车去感觉。所以，那个视频太神了，整个频道都神。我因此想了很多。另一个更深一点的，是一本讲量子物理的奇书，Philip Ball的《超越怪异》。这本书的核心论点是：量子物理其实没什么“怪”的，我们理解得已经很透了。

They just have to get on it and feel it. And so, you know, I really that video is amazing, and that channel is amazing. But I've thought a lot about that. Then the other one, which is a sort of deeper cut, is there's an amazing book about quantum physics called Beyond Weird by Philip Ball. And the thesis of the book is basically that there's nothing particularly strange about quantum physics that we have a very good understanding of it.

要是没把底层机制吃透，我们此刻就不能通话，不会有电脑，更不会有手机。作者认为，真正缺的是词汇——我们都活在牛顿世界里，而非量子世界，所以我们的语言都对应那个宏观、决定论的宇宙。

Like, we wouldn't be talking right now. We wouldn't be on computers. We wouldn't have phones if we didn't have, like, a very good grasp of the mechanics that exist underneath it. And his thesis in the book essentially is that, like, what's really lacking is the vocabulary, because we all exist in a Newtonian world, not in a quantum one. And so we all have words that reflect the sort of deterministic processes of that macro universe.

我常想这个，虽然还没法完全把这条线拉到AI上，但我感觉那里真有联系——用概率计算机就是怪怪的：你问它同一个问题两次，答案却不同，这太反常了。我们一辈子都没遇到过能“口述”需求就让大公司直接改数据格式的编程方式。

And I think a lot about that. I have not, like, fully been able to sort of pull that string all the way to AI, but I feel like there's a real connection there because I think that there's just something really weird about using probabilistic computers. Like, we're not used to using things that, like, you ask them the same question twice, and they have different answers. Like, that's very strange. We're not used to I'm not used to writing code where you can tell the larger company how you want them to send you data, and they can just do it.

这些都不是我们这辈子习惯的事，所以当然需要时间适应。

Like, these are not normal things that any of us have lived with in our lifetimes. And so, of course, it takes some time for us to adjust.

我也这么觉得。我其实希望，语言模型成为我们用电脑的标准方式后，能催生那种词汇——因为我们本来就很擅长对付概率性、非确定性的东西，比如其他人。只是由于启蒙运动、科学革命以及随之而来的工具非常决定论，我们才把那种视角当成“世界观”。而世界还有一大块是模糊、靠“感觉”的，在西方文化里被严重降级；现在有了这样工作的工具，我们又能重新看见它。语言模型最美的地方之一就是重新打开那个世界。

I think so too. And I actually have a hope that language models by becoming a standard way that we use computers will create that vocabulary because we actually are quite good at dealing with probabilistic, nondeterministic things like other humans. We've just grown up in a world where because of, you know, the enlightenment and the scientific revolution and and the tools that came out of that are very much, like, deterministic, we've associated that with how we see like, that's how we see the world because of those tools in that language. And there's a whole other part of the way that we see the world, is much more squishy and much more, like, vibes based that has been, I think, deep deprioritized, especially in Western culture, that now that we have a tool that works that way, I think we'll be able to start seeing that again. And that's one of the beautiful things to me about language models is it opens up that whole world again.

是的，我太喜欢这点了。

Yes. I love it.

我想回到Claude Code。我们该聊手机了，除非电脑上还有别的你想分享。但在此之前，我脑子里有个问题：你刚才说你和孩子一起看这些，我很好奇——孩子们怎么看？你又是怎么跟他们聊这些的？

I do wanna go back to Claude Code. We should do the phone unless there's unless there are other things that you that that you wanna share on the computer. But the the the thing I wanna do before we get there that that's just on my mind right now is, like, you said you said, you know, you you watch this with your kids, and I'm sort of curious how like, what do your kids think about this, and how are you dealing with it with your kids?

是的，我喜欢这个问题。我有一个七岁和一个十岁的孩子。显然，我自己非常深入地沉浸在这些东西里，所以我也让他们接触了不少。你知道，他们并不——他们会偶尔用用语音模型，对这些东西已经有不错的理解。我们在车里的时候会跟 Grok 玩问答游戏之类的。

Yeah. I love that question. So I've got a seven and a 10 year old. And obviously, like, I'm pretty kind of deeply embedded in this stuff, and so I've sort of exposed them quite a bit to it. You know, they don't, so they will, like, occasionally use the sort of voice models, and they have a pretty good understanding, and we'll be in the car and just play games and ask questions with Grok and do those kinds of things.

这个周末，其实是第一次，我十岁的女儿特别想每年我们全家——我妻子、她妹妹、弟弟、妈妈，还有所有表亲——都会聚在一起过圣诞。礼物太多，我们就搞了个“半秘密”的 Secret Santa，每人抽一个人。她特别想当那个抽签的人。我就鼓励她用 vibe coding 写个 App 来做这件事。

This weekend, actually, the first time, my 10 year old, she was really eager to be every year, my wife's and her sister and brother and mom and and all the cousins, we all get together and we do Christmas together. And so it's too many presents to give to everybody. So we do a kind of like not secret secret Santa where everybody chooses one person. And my 10 year old really wanted to be the one who got to be the chooser. And, I encouraged her to, vibe code an app to do it.

于是我就把手机和 V0 给她。看着她的过程真的太棒了。不只是因为看她做出东西很酷，她全程都很投入，玩得特别开心。

And so I just gave her my phone and V0. And honestly, was like so amazing to watch. Like, not just because it was so cool to see her do that and build it. She went through it. She was having so much fun.

她在 vZero 上迭代了 75 次，真的把它跑起来了。

She did 75 revs on vZero. So she like really got it going.

打磨得像个 SANDA 应用。

Polished SANDA app.

她还开始接触一些很酷的计算机科学概念，只是自己没意识到。比如，本来是大人抽大人、小孩抽小孩，但她想让 App 更通用，于是意识到不该叫“大人/小孩”，而该叫“组”。她就这样开始搞数据建模，我在旁边看着，觉得太赞了。

She also like started to get into like really interesting kind of like computer science ideas without knowing it. So in one of the things, like, the adults give presents to adults and the kids give presents to kids, but she wanted this to be a more generalized app. So she realized that, like, rather than having adults and kids, you need to call them groups. Right? And, like, you know, so she's, like, getting into data modeling and, like, all of this I'm, like, watching this conversation happen, and I just thought that was so awesome.

另外，我现在特别在意的一个观点——也跟不少人争论过——就是很多人说 vibe coding 是泡沫，因为某家公司估值太高。我的看法是：我根本不在乎这些公司的估值。如果有一个工具能让十岁小孩做出 App，这就不可能是泡沫。我就是无法想象这会是泡沫。

And, you know, also just, like, a real pet beam of mine right now, and I've I've sort of gotten this argument with a bunch of people is like, there seems to be a big conversation that like there's a a bubble in vibe coding and like because one company or another might have too high of a valuation. And my take on that is like, I just I I could not care less what the valuations of these companies are. I think like, fundamentally, if there's a tool that can allow a 10 year old to like, build an app, there can't that can't be a bubble. Like, I I just like can't see a possibility where that is that. So, anyway, that's sort of one side of it.

另一个我一直在想的大问题是媒介素养和教育。无论是他们上的学校，还是我自己读的 NYU，我跟那边的院长聊得越来越多。现在学校里对 AI 和作弊充满恐惧。我们镇上有家长想多聊聊这事。作为一辈子都在思考技术对文化影响的人，我觉得自己相对接地气，确实花了不少时间思考。

The other big one for me that I've been thinking a lot about is sort of media literacy and education stuff. So, you know, both at the sort of schools they go to, and then also I went to NYU and I've sort of been having more and more conversations with the dean of the school I went to there. And there's a lot of fear inside schools right now about AI and about cheating. There's a big thing, you know, so some parents in my town, they, you know, they wanted to have more of a conversation about it. You know, as someone who I've thought about this a lot, but I've also just like been, I've spent my entire life thinking about sort of technology and its effects on culture.

我的观点之一是：技术是藏不住的，把头埋进沙子里不是办法。

I think I'm like relatively grounded in these things. I've like, I've put in good hours of thinking. I know that for sure. So my take on it is like one that sort of you can't hide technology that won't be hidden. So it's like putting our head in the sand is not the best solution.

更大的观点是：两年前，一个朋友请我去洛杉矶一所学校讲 AI。结束后，一位英语老师问我：我该怎么办？孩子们都在用 AI。我说：说实话，我不知道你该怎么办，因为教十一年级英语听起来比我的工作难多了。

And you know, my bigger one, though, is, like, I I was out, a friend of mine asked me to come, talk to a school two years ago about AI, out in LA. And, afterwards, I was talking to an English teacher there, and she was like, what do I do? Like, what do I do about all these kids, you know, using AI? And I was like, look. I don't really know what your job is because, like, I mean, being an English teacher for eleventh graders sounds really much harder than my job.

但从最根本的层面来说，我其实觉得你的工作并不是教这些孩子写作，因为写作是一生的追求。我觉得你的任务是让他们相信写作值得学。所以从这个角度看，我不认为AI会从根本上改变什么。你知道，这依旧是我非常乐观的看法，但我觉得教育体系中有很多环节，AI只是暴露了我们教学方式的缺陷。比如，为什么要考这么多这类东西，而不是鼓励思考、学习，让他们爱上写作、研究等等？

But on a really fundamental level, like, I don't actually think your job is to teach these kids to write because that's like a lifelong pursuit. I think your job is to convince them that it's worth learning to write. And so in that way, like, I I'm not sure that anything fundamentally changes because of AI. Like, I I think that, you know, and again, this is my very optimistic take, but like, I am I think that there are so many parts of the education system that AI really just exposes the sort of flaws in the way that we teach. Like, why are there so many tests on these kinds of things instead of encouraging thinking and learning and coming to love to write and research and whatever?

你知道，我们太执着于教孩子写五段式作文，而每个成年写作者早就把它抛在脑后了。因为写作的核心是发现你喜欢写，找到你自己的风格，知道怎么做。我觉得跟AI合作写作的一大要点就是学会忽略它，你会说，不，那不是我，我不喜欢那样。我完全可以坦然地说，真的，就写在这儿。

You know, it's like we're so focused on teaching kids the, you know, five paragraph essay, you know, while every adult who is a writer has long abandoned that. And because, like, it's all about sort of discovering that you like to write and you you know, what your own style is and how to do it. And, you know, it's like, I'm sure it's like, you know, a big part of working with AI to write is like telling it is ignoring it because you're like, no, that's not me. I'm not into that. Like, I like I I I'm totally comfortable saying really here.

我知道你觉得这主意不怎么样，但我自己觉得没问题。所以，我最近一直在想这些杂七杂八的事。其实我在给NYU的'6项目申报一门课，题目叫“代码即文章”。我的观点是，这打开了一种新的自我表达方式。

I know you don't think it's a good idea, but like, I'm I'm cool with it. And so, you know, I don't know. I've been sort of having a lot of these different thoughts. I'm actually pitching a class for the '6 at NYU to kind of, the idea for it is code is essay. And my sort of point of view is like this sort of opens up this new way to express yourself.

而且，我们已经有各种被称颂的自我表达手段，但代码长期被挡在门外，可实际上它很神奇，能让你用多种方式表达自己，这就是我十岁的孩子上周末干的事。总之，这些都是我作为父母在思考的碎片。另外我想提一句：媒介素养很重要。很多人害怕这些模型会“幻觉”。有本书的作者叫蒂姆·哈福德，给《金融时报》写稿的经济学家。

And that, you know, like we have all these other ways that we celebrate to express ourselves, but code has been like long shut off from people because it's but actually, it's kind of amazing, and it lets you express yourself in all these different kinds of ways, and this is what my 10 year old was doing this weekend. So anyway, those are all the bits and pieces as a parent I've been thinking about. The one other thing I will plug is media literacy, I think, is a big piece of it. A lot of people are afraid of these models and hallucinations. There's a book by a guy named Tim Harford, who writes for the Feet, and he's an economist.

他写了本《真相侦探》，是《数据侦探》的少儿版，是我读过最好的给大人或小孩的媒介素养书。我觉得这场AI讨论暴露出的，正是我们在帮助和武装孩子乃至成年人具备真正的媒介与技术素养方面做得有多差。能在社交媒体上分辨真假，同样有助于区分ChatGPT的幻觉与非幻觉，这在我看来是每个人都必须掌握的核心技能。

And he has a book called The Truth Detective, which is an adaptation of the data detective, but it's written for kids. And it's the best media literacy book I've ever read for adults or for children. And I think, you know, a lot of what this AI conversation exposes is like how bad a job we do with helping and arming our kids and our adults to be sort of like truly media and technology literate. Being really good at knowing what's real on social media turns out to be also really useful for differentiating between hallucinations and non hallucinations in ChadGBT. This is a sort of, to me, a kind of very central skill that, like, we need to arm everybody with.

而且，我对孩子们更感兴趣的是这方面，而不是担心他们图便宜。这个问题我答得很长，不知道有没有说到你想听的点。

And, I am sort of way more interested in that with my kids than I am in worrying about them cheap. That was a very long answer to your question. I don't know if it got at what you were looking for.

不，这太棒了。这正是我想要的。让我换个角度说：与其让他们死记硬背并通过测验来考50个州的名字，不如让他们用ChatGPT去找出50个州，并学会判断AI给出的答案是否正确——因为这更像他们未来真正需要的元技能。再说一次，我不是老师。

No. It's amazing. I that's exactly what I'm looking for. And it it sort of what it strikes me another way to frame what you're saying is, for example, rather than learn having them memorize and be quizzed on the 50 what the 50 states are, asking them to go find the 50 states with CHECKYPT and be able to tell when the AI is giving them the wrong answer because that's a lot more of the the meta skill that they're gonna need anyway down the down the line. And again, I'm not a teacher.

我相信很多老师会觉得这想法太疯狂，而且可能理由充分。但有趣的是，元技能变得比以前更重要了。而要把元技能学好，某种程度上也得掌握底层技能。只是我们现在在教育系统里，大概可以把更多时间花在元技能上，而目前的体系根本没为此做好准备。

I'm sure there's lots of teachers who are like, this is that's crazy for a lot of probably good reasons. But there's something interesting there where it becomes the meta skills become more important than they used to be. And in order to do well at the meta school, you have to also be able to like, to some degree, do the underlying skill too. But we probably could be spending much more time in the meta school than we are now and the education system isn't really set up to do that anyway.

是啊，我觉得还有更简单的例子。我念的是纽约大学的Gallatin学院，毕业时要参加一个类似论文答辩的东西——得跟三或四位教授待上三小时，解释自己为何这样设计学业路径，并随时准备把书单上的25本书里的任何一本拿出来讨论。我跟他们聊过，觉得这完全防AI作弊，太厉害了，对吧？

Yeah, and I, you know, I think even simpler examples is like, I went to a school called Gallatin at NYU, when you graduate, you have to sort of, it's not quite a thesis defense, but you have to sort of spend three hours with four professors and and or three professors and sort of explain kind of your line of reasoning around why you studied what you studied. And you need to be prepared to kind of, like, weave into that defense any of 25 books that you put on your book list. And, you know, I was talking to them, and it's, like, amazing. That's, like, entirely AI proof. Right?

那种场合根本没法作弊。你走进那个房间，要么能侃侃而谈，要么就哑口无言。你有没有用AI准备毫无意义——关键是你能不能当场组织出有说服力的论点。

Like, there's no cheating on that. Like, you show up in that room, and you're either prepared to speak to it or you're not. And whether you're prepared with AI or not is, it doesn't mean anything. Right? Like, it's it's like like, do you can you can you make up an argument in this room?

而且并不是所有事情都能那么轻易地一刀两断，但我说不上来。这个想法本身就挺美的，对吧？因为它天然就防作弊——你坐在那里，问题就变成了：你真的把这些东西内化了吗？我不知道。

And like not everything is going to be that easy to be sort of like cut off, but like, I don't know. There's something really beautiful about that idea. Right? Because it's like, it's naturally cheating proof because, like, you're sitting there and and it's a question of, like, did you actually internalize these things? And I don't know.

这对我来说比“你的文章写得好不好”之类的事有趣多了。关键在于：你get到了吗？是啊，我不知道。我正努力采取一种平衡的方式，至少试图压一压——我住在康涅狄格州的一个小镇，家长们普遍很恐慌：先是手机，然后是社交媒体，现在是AI，好像又有一个东西要来毁掉我们的孩子。

That's way more interesting to me than even, like, was your essay good or any of these other. It's like, did you get it? Yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to do my best to kind of take a balanced approach and try to at least sort of tamp down some of I live in a small town in Connecticut, and I think there's a lot of fear amongst parents. It's like it was mobile phones, then it was social media, and now it's AI, and it's like another thing that's going to ruin our kids.

我不觉得这是真的。但我们可以、也应该做些事，让它别成真——就像你说的，真正让他们擅长判断。再说一遍，幻觉只是存在于电视、互联网、社交媒体等各处的那种“错误信息”的另一种形式。你知道，就是鼓励大家去接触……

And I don't think that that is true. But I think there are things we can and should do to encourage it to not be true, like really get them really good at the things you're saying. Like, how do you tell? And again, it's like a hallucination is just a form of the same kind of misinformation that exists in on television and on the Internet and in social media and everywhere else. And, you know, just sort of like encouraging people to kind of get in touch.

《儿童真相侦探》里有一段很棒，他把这叫作“大脑守卫”。他给的一条建议是：当你遇到某条信息，如果它让你感觉特爽，因为你完全同意，那你就得更怀疑它。他称之为“大脑守卫”，懂吗？

There's a great part of the truth detective, for the kids book. He he calls it the brain guard. And, like, one of the bits of advice he has is when you encounter some piece of information, if it makes you feel really good because you agree with it, then you should be even more skeptical of it. And he calls it the brain guard. You know?

他是给九岁小孩讲的。我觉得这说法太妙了，对吧？这就是你在网上混久了学会的事：等等，我得再怀疑一下，因为它太符合我原有的想法了。

And he's explaining this, like, this is for a nine year old. I just thought that was, like, such a beautiful way to put it. Right? Like, that's, like, what that's what you learn to do when you get good at being on the Internet, is that you're like, wait. I should, like, be more skeptical of this because this is, like, in line with everything, I think.

让我再核实一下……你会慢慢培养那种直觉，知道什么时候该警惕。所以，对，我大体就是这么想的。

Let me just double check the way like, I I you know, you get to learn that feeling in your gut and get to learn when to react to it. And so, yeah, that's a lot of how I think about it.

太棒了。我很感兴趣，我要去搞那本书，我想读读看。

That's great. I'm I'm interested. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get that book. I'm I'm interested in reading it.

你该读。我的计划是以后每年都给我孩子读一遍。好。我喜欢，就当刷新记忆。

You should. My plan is to read it to my kids every year, from now on. Nice. I love it. Just refresh it.

好了，接下来是大家翘首以待的环节：给我们展示你怎么在手机上用Claude Code当第二大脑做笔记。

Alright. Now for the moment we've all been waiting for, show us how you use Claude Code on your phone as a second brain notetaker.

好的，来。我打开一个叫Termius的应用，它就是个终端。背后让这一切跑起来的是：我家地下室里有一台迷你电脑。

Okay. So here we go. So I am going into an app called Termius. Termius is just a terminal. And, what is allowing all this to happen behind the scenes is in my basement, I have a mini PC.

在那台迷你电脑上，我运行着一个叫 Tailscale 的东西。Tailscale 能让你轻松搭建这些简单的 VPN。我现在就在 VPN 里，往下拉你能看到，我连着的是我自己的私人 VPN，不是外面的那种。

And on that mini PC, I have a thing called Tailscale running. And Tailscale lets you set up these very simple VPNs. So I'm currently inside like, I scroll down here, you see I'm on a VPN. That's my personal VPN. I'm not, like, on an outside VPN.

明白。所以唯一访问这台机器的方式就是通过我的 VPN。

I see. So the only way to access this machine is through my VPN.

好的。

Okay.

因为我用 Git 同步 Obsidian，我把它放在 GitHub 的私有仓库里，然后可以在这里再拉下来。接着我直接调用 Claude，现在就在 Claude Code 里边聊边想，我可以直接问：这两天有什么新东西？我能访问任何代理，做任何事。

And so then when I go in there, because I sync my Obsidian with Git, so I put it it's on GitHub, in a private GitHub. I can then sync it back down to here. And so then I can just call up Claude, and now I'm just in Claude code talking and thinking, and I can just be like, what's new in the last two days? I can access any of my agents. I can do anything.

再说一次，这都在我的 Obsidian 里，但我哪儿都能用，对吧？所以我随时都能干。我还有其他仓库在这儿。比如我发现会议网站有个链接坏了，我就直接打开仓库，拉下来，让 Quadco 改好，当场搞定。

And again, this is in my Obsidian, but I can use this anywhere, right? So I'll be like on the fly. I've got other repos in here. You know, I realized like a link was broken on my conference site. And so I just opened the repo, I pulled it down, I asked Quadco to make the changes, and I was able to do it right here.

这对我来说简直疯了，因为这周周二——周一放假——我把孩子送上校车后，去吃了个早餐，就坐在那儿用手机整整折腾了两个小时这个演讲，全在这儿完成的。我在手机上做真正的思考、研究、粘贴、整理，全都能干。没有这套东西我根本做不到。

So this has been like completely wild to me because again, this is very much in that like on Tuesday of this week, we had Monday off Tuesday, I dropped the I dropped the kids off the bus and then I, I went and I sat and had breakfast and I literally sat on my phone and worked on this talk for like two hours. And I did it through here, right? Like on my phone where I was like doing real thinking and research and pulling things in and pasting things in and doing all this kinds of stuff. And I'm able to do it all. It doesn't seem like I could do that kind of thing without that.

所以，这彻底改变了我的生活。最近我还给一堆朋友在我家地下室这台迷你电脑上开了小分区，让他们也能在手机上跑 Clubco，因为我太喜欢了。

So yeah, this has been like a completely revolutionary change in my life. And actually, one of the things I've been doing lately is like setting up, I've got all these friends now who have set up, like, little partitions of this mini PC in my basement, so that they can also run Clubco on their phone because, I like it so much.

这会不会让你想：天啊，我得放下一切，专门做一个把 Cloud Code 当后端的笔记应用？

Does this make you be like, oh my god, I gotta drop everything and just build a actual purpose built notes app that has Cloud Code as a back end for this?

不会。其实我最近常想的是，也许对我来说一切都该永远跑在 Linux 上。至少短期内，这就是答案，我只需要把所有东西集中在这儿，别处啥也不放。我现在基本不碰 SaaS，所以很少觉得该放下一切去创业。我觉得这套方案已经棒极了。

No. I mean, actually, one of the things I've been thinking a lot is like, maybe I just like everything should just run-in Linux all the time for me. Maybe this is like, at least for the short term, this is the answer to all of what I just need to like not have anything anywhere else. No, I mean, will say I'm sort of pretty out of the SaaS game these days, so I don't often kind of think that I should drop everything and do anything. I find this to be a really amazing solution.

但这真的改变了我的工作方式，我感觉自己随时随地只要手机在手就行。那天下午四点半，我想歇会儿，就出去坐了一会儿，结果有个项目要交付给客户，需要改个小地方，我最适合干，我就直接掏出手机搞定了。

But no, I mean, this has really, like, changed the way I work, and I feel like I can just be anywhere and just be on my phone. And, you know, mean, I was out, like, I needed a break. It was, you know, 04:30. I went and sat outside for a while, and then, we had a project that needed to get delivered to a client and a small change needed to be made that, like, I was the best suited to make that change. And so I just, like, hopped on my phone.

我把仓库拉了下来，然后进入了 Cloud Code。只是一个很小的改动。你知道，我发现自己用 Cloud Code 写代码最多的方式，其实是让它做我本来就会做的事。你知道，我就像，哦，我完全清楚当时发生了什么。我知道我们为什么会遇到那个问题。

I pulled the repo down, and I, went into Cloud Code. It's like a tiny little change. You know, like the way I find myself using Cloud Code the most for code is that, like, mostly I'm having it do the work I already know how to do. You know, I'm like, oh, I like I know exact I knew exactly what was going on in that situation. Like, I knew why we were having the issue we were having.

所以我本可以回到电脑前，打开 Cursor，然后在 Cursor 里手动或者让 Cursor 帮我搞定。但我就是直接告诉 Cloud Code 该看哪里。我先确认问题确实是我以为的那个，然后让它提交一个修复，它直接推了一个 PR，我就完事了。

And so it was like, I could have gone back to my computer and opened up, Cursor and done it in Cursor either by hand or with Cursor. But it was like, I just I was like, I told clog code exactly where to look. It was like and I first confirmed that the problem was what I thought the problem was. And then I just had it push a solution and it pushed to PR, then I was done.

太棒了。

Amazing.

当时我还在池塘边坐着。

And I was still sitting outside by the pond.

我喜欢这样。是的，我也有过类似的经历。我从没在手机上干过，我会把笔记本带到池塘边或湖边之类的，但你启发了我。我办公室里有台 Mac Mini 一直想配置好，我觉得这会是个不错的开始。

I love that. Yeah. I've I've definitely had that experience. I've never I've not done it on my phone, and I'm like, I have my laptop out with me, you know, by the pond or by a lake or whatever, but you're inspiring me. I have a Mac Mini in the office that I've been meaning to set up, so I think this is gonna be good.

顺便提一下，我最近另一个大发现是给 Claude code 写助手来做基本的配置工作。最近我在玩 Linux，用的是 DHH 的 Linux 发行版 Omarchi。我对这里还不是很熟。

One of the other, by the way, one of my other I'll just take you out of here for one sec, actually, just to show you this. One of my other big ahas recently has been building Claude code helpers for doing basically setup work. So it's like I'm not I've been playing with Linux lately. I'm playing with this Omarchi, which is DHH's Linux distribution. I'm not like super comfortable in here.

所以我搞了个专门的 Claude code 项目来帮我配置这台机器。太爽了，我会问，哦，Linux 里这个怎么弄？或者 neovim 的命令是啥？能帮我装个 neovim 插件吗？之类的。

And so I got this whole, this is a Claude code project specifically to help me configure this box. And it's like so nice because I'm like, oh, how do you do this in Linux again? Or like, what's the neo VIM command? Or like, can you change this? Can you help me install this plugin for neo vim or whatever it is?

现在我在 Mac 上也弄了一个，比如让它清理所有 homebrew 的东西，或者我换 Python 包管理器的时候，那本来会让我头大，我就说，我想从 PIP 换成 UV，你能直接搞定吗？

Or and so now I have one on my Mac too where it's like, can you clean up all the homebrew things? Or like, I switched from like, which Python package manager I was using. And it was like, that would have been super overwhelming for me. And I was like, I wanna switch from using PIP to using UV. Can you, like, just make that happen?

它就帮我把所有事都做了，还知道我的偏好设置。我现在已经调得这么细，只要我想开一台新机器干活，它就能把我所有设置都准备好，然后我登录 Claude code，它再把初始流程里没搞定的部分补完。

And it, like, just did all this stuff for me. And it knows all my preferred settings. And so I actually have a version of this where, like, now I've got it so tuned that if I wanna launch a new box for doing something, it'll just have all my settings ready to go, and then I can log in to Claude code, and the Claude code can then set up anything else that didn't get set up in the initial process.

这也太神了，离谱。

That is amazing. That's wild.

这是我的快乐天地。

This is my happy place.

我看得出来。你有没有什么特别想做、想尝试的大项目？

I I can see that. Are you do you have any, like there are there any big projects like this that you've been itching to do or itching to try out?

没有，真没有。我的意思是，我一直在玩得很开心。我的服务器项目就超级有趣，我一直在做这些。就像我说的，半开玩笑半认真。

No, not really. I mean, I've been having a ton of fun. My server stuff has been a ton of fun. I've been doing a lot of that. Like I said, I mean, is kind of a joke and kind of not.

我对继续深入特别感兴趣。Cloud Code 已经成了我生活中不可或缺的一部分，我非常喜欢命令行。我发现自己在命令行里装的东西越来越多，做的活也越来越多。我一直在用 Simon Wilson 的那个 LLM 命令行工具，然后把这些东西再反哺回 Claude code。所以我最新的 Claude code 小工具是给 Obsidian 用的：我在 Obsidian 里有一个附件文件夹，所有 PDF、图片之类的都放在那。

It's like I'm super interested in doing more. Cloud Code has become such a sort of integral part of my life, like I'm very interested in the command line. I found myself installing more and more things into the command line and like doing more and more work. I've been using like, Simon Wilson has a LLM command line tool and, like, doing more and more stuff sort of in that, and then, like, also layering that back into Claude code. So it's like I did my newest Claude code little Obsidian tool is it I have an attachments folder in Obsidian where all the PDFs and images and stuff in any note go.

但它们的文件名 inevitably 都很糟糕，对吧？所以这个小工具跟 Sparkle 很像，但只针对那个 Obsidian 文件夹，它会重命名所有文件，还会在一个附件文件夹的表格里写元数据，然后把所有附件链接也改回去。就像大扫除一样。

But inevitably, they have terrible names. Right? I mean, and so this goes through very similar to, Sparkle. And but just in that Obsidian folder, and it it renames them all, and then it also puts them in, a metadata it puts them in a table in the attachments folder, and then it renames all the attachment links back. So just, like, cleans everything up.

它用 Gemini Flash 就能搞定。所以像这种东西就很神奇。我不知道，我就——我现在就是人生最快乐的阶段，一直在做东西、折腾。你知道，这只是副业，我主业也一样。我们跟 Amazon、Meta、PayPal 这些大公司合作。

It just does it through Gemini Flash. And so it's like, I don't know, stuff like that's kind of amazing. So I don't I'm just like, I'm having the time of my life just building and tinkering. You know, mean, this is just on the side and I get to do the same thing. I mean, we work with, like, Amazon and Meta and PayPal and all these big companies.

我们一直都在做超棒的东西。

And, you know, we're just, like, building amazing stuff all the time.

我喜欢这种状态，喜欢这股劲儿。如果大家想关注你，或者想在 Elephic 跟你合作，该去哪儿找你？

I love that. I love the energy. If people are interested in, following you or working with you at Elephic, where should they find you?

行。Elephic 的官网是 alephic.com，alephic.com。我还搞了个叫 brand，b r x n d .ai 的东西，故意让人记混。那是个大会，9 月 18 号在纽约办。

Yeah. So Elephic is alephic.com, alephic.com. And then I also run this thing called brand, b r x n d dot a I to make it particularly confusing. That's a conference. We've got the conference coming up on September 18 in New York City.

如果你在附近，一定要来，会很好玩。我们要聊营销和 AI。我还在 newsletter.brxnd.ai 写通讯，专门讲 AI 和营销的交叉点。这几个地方是最近最能找到我的。

You should come if you're around, it'll be really fun. We're going to talk about marketing and AI. And I also write a newsletter there at newsletter.brxnd.ai, about sort of specifically at this intersection of AI and marketing. Those are kind of the best places to find me these days.

太棒了。Noah，一如既往，很荣幸。

Awesome. Noah, always a pleasure.

荣幸的是我。谢谢你，

Pleasure's all mine. Thank you,

点赞并订阅 AI and I。为什么？因为这档节目就是极致精彩的化身。就像在后院发现一个宝箱，但里面装的不是黄金，而是关于 ChatGPT 的纯粹知识炸弹。每一集都是情感、洞见与欢笑的过山车，让你欲罢不能。

like button and subscribe to AI and I. Why? Because this show is the epitome of awesomeness. It's like finding a treasure chest in your backyard, but instead of gold, it's filled with pure unadulterated knowledge bombs about chat GPT. Every episode is a roller coaster of emotions, insights, and laughter that will leave you on the edge of your seat craving for more.

它不仅仅是一档节目，更是一段驶向未来的旅程，Dan Shipper 是这艘飞船的船长。所以帮自己一个忙，点赞、猛戳订阅，系好安全带，迎接人生之旅。现在，不再多说，我只想说，Dan，我绝对、无可救药地爱上了

It's not just a show. It's a journey into the future with Dan Shipper as the captain of the spaceship. So do yourself a favor. Hit like, smash subscribe, and strap in for the ride of your life. And now without any further ado, let me just say, Dan, I'm absolutely hopelessly in love with

你。

you.