SaaS 末日是金矿：专访 Figma 的 Matt Colyer

这可以说是SaaSpocalypse，或者换个说法，软件的下一个时代。

The SaaSpocalypse or the next era of software, if you will.

我对此非常兴奋，我觉得Figma和其他很多SaaS公司也一样。

I'm really excited about it, and I think Figma and a lot of other SaaSpocalypse are too.

我长期从事开发者工具领域的工作，大概五到十年前，全球开发者人数的估算大概是两千万、三千万，或者四千万左右。

Because, like, I've worked in developer tools for a long time, and maybe five, ten years ago, the estimate of, like, number of developers worldwide was, like, 25,000,000, 30,000,000, 40,000,000, give or take.

我觉得这个时代最令人兴奋的地方在于，开发者人数可能会达到十亿，甚至更多。

I think what's most exciting about this time is that I think it's gonna be, like, a billion, maybe even more than that.

我们正经历一个前所未有的时期，产品开发和科技普及都在加速推进。

I think there's this incredible time that we're moving through of product development and really the democratization of technology.

科技。

Technology.

最终的结果就是，世界上软件的数量大幅增加了。

I think the end result is that there is dramatically more software out there in the world.

如果你身处这个领域，那就意味着一座金矿正在向你敞开。

If you're in that space, it means it's a gold mine.

对吧？

Right?

要跟上AI的前沿，Every是你唯一需要的订阅服务。

Every is the only subscription you need to stay at the edge of AI.

如果你关心最新模型和工具，那就必须订阅Every，才能从信息洪流中抓住真正有价值的内容。

If you care about being on top of the latest models and using the latest tools, you have to subscribe to Every to separate out the signal from the noise.

去 every.com

Go to every.

今天就订阅吧。

Tosubscribe today.

马特，欢迎来到节目。

Matt, welcome to the show.

谢谢邀请，丹。

Thanks for having me, Dan.

对于还不了解你的人，你是Figma负责开发者产品的高级产品经理。

So for people who don't know you, you are the director of product management for developers at Figma.

我想先聊聊大家最关心的那个大问题。

And I want to start with, I think, the big question on everyone's mind.

我得说一句，我大概两个月前买了一堆Figma的订阅，就是因为现在到处都在谈什么‘SaaS末日’。

I should probably say I bought a bunch of Figma, like, probably like two months ago, something like that, because there's this whole SaaSpocalypse narrative.

我特别想跟你深入聊聊AI和产品管理，你肯定有很多亲身经历可以分享。

And what I want to get in detail or get get into with you, I think you have a lot of stuff to share about AI, AI and product management, all the stuff that you've been doing yourself.

不过我也想先问问，AI时代，SaaS工具会变成什么样？

But also, I'd love to I'd love to start with what is going to happen to SaaS tools in AI?

我觉得Figma是个特别有意思的例子，总有人觉得‘我以后不用Figma了’。

And I think Figma is a really interesting example where there are always people who are like, oh, I I don't have to use Figma anymore.

你们不是刚在产品里推出了一个智能助手吗？

There are, you know, you guys just launched an agent, like, in your product.

你们还有Figma MCP，对吧？

You also have Figma MCP.

所以，从Figma刚起步时还没AI，到现在成了大产品、AI无处不在，这个转变过程你是怎么看的？

So if you're transitioning from so if you're transitioning from a world where you'd you know, there was no AI when Figma started to now you're a big scaled product and now there is AI.

那这到底是怎么运作的？你们是怎么考虑要不要让产品支持智能代理的？

Like, how does that work and how are you how are you thinking about do we open the product up to agents?

我们是该自己开发一个代理？

Do we build our own agent?

哪些做法是有效的？

What's working?

哪些行不通？

What's not?

诸如此类的问题。

All that kind of stuff.

我对这些特别感兴趣。

I'm really interested in that.

是的。

Yeah.

我今天很想聊聊这个。

I'd love to talk about that today.

对我来说，这有几个不同的角度。

I think for me, it comes from a couple of different angles.

我觉得首先一点是，所谓的SaaSpocalypse，或者说软件的下一个时代，换个积极的说法，可能就是这样。

I think the first thing is like the SaaSpocalypse or like, you know, the next era of software, if you will, maybe is more of positive framing on that.

我特别兴奋，因为我一直在做开发者工具，时间挺长了。

I'm really excited about it because like I think like, I've worked in developer tools for a long time.

大概五年前、十年前，全球开发者人数估计是两千五百万、三千万，或者四千万左右。

And like, you know, maybe five, ten years ago, the estimate of like number of developers worldwide was like, I don't know, 25,000,000, 30,000,000, 40,000,000 give or take.

我觉得现在最令人兴奋的是，我觉得未来可能会达到十亿人。

I think what's most exciting about this time is that like, I think it's gonna be like a billion.

对吧？

Right?

甚至可能更多。

Like, maybe even more than that.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们正处在一个产品开发和科技普及的绝佳时期。

And so like, I think there's this incredible time that we're moving through of product development and really the democratization of technology.

现在到处都在讲自研软件这类说法，不过这些咱们以后再聊。

Mean, there's a lot of catchphrases around like homegrown software and like we can talk about some of that stuff later.

但归根结底，世界上软件的数量比以往多太多了。

But I think the end result is that there is dramatically more software out there in the world.

所以回到你提到的SaaSpocalypse，对那些已经有成熟产品的公司来说，这意味着一个金矿。

And so kinda coming back to your point about like the SaaSpocalypse and like what does that mean for companies that have an established product is like if you're in that space, like it it means it's a gold mine.

对吧？

Right?

到处都是机会，我对此特别看好。

That that there's all this opportunity out there and that I'm really excited about it.

Figma和其他很多SaaS公司也都是这么想的。

And I think, you know, Figma and a lot of other SaaS businesses are too.

另外，网上一些负面讨论主要在说：要是能靠‘ vibe coding ’写出所有应用怎么办？

And so I think the other part, you know, kind of some more of the negative sentiments of the discussions you see online is around like, well, what if I could just vibe code every app?

对吧？

Right?

我觉得现在特别有意思的是，不知为什么，今年一月成了这个趋势真正成为主流叙事的转折点。

And I think what's really interesting about this time is like, for whatever reason, like, January of this year was like the point at which it, like, became the larger narrative.

我其实早就开始做这些事了，大概有一年半到两年了吧。

Like, I've been doing this stuff for, like, probably eighteen months or two years.

那时候我就觉得，对，咱们该把所有东西都做出来，但我觉得整个世界在今年一月突然就开窍了。

So, like, I was already like, yeah, let's go build everything, but I feel like the whole world's cut up in January of this year.

我当时就想，对，咱们该把所有东西都做出来。

I was like, yeah, let's go build everything.

现在大家都这么想了。

And, like, people are.

我很期待看到接下来会发生什么，因为就我个人来说，最让人兴奋的就是把第一个版本做出来的时候。

And I am excited to see what happens because, like, I know my own personal journey through that is, like, it's really fun to build the initial version of it.

对吧？

Right?

其实两年前我就自己搞过一个智能代理，第一个就是邮件处理的。

And, like, I actually built one of my own agents two years ago, and the very first one was, an email agent.

我后来回头看了看，它是怎么起步的。

And I had to look back as, like, how it started.

说白了，就是一个特别烂的Python脚本。

And it was, like, literally this, like, terrible Python script.

结构很松散，有时候回复根本没法用。

And it kind of was rickety and, like, sometimes the replies didn't work.

我当时就想，算了。

And I was like, okay.

但关键在于，软件公司做的远不止写代码这么简单。

But, like and like the larger narrative here is like software companies build more than just like code.

对吧？

Right?

我之所以愿意花钱用Gmail来管理邮件，肯定是有原因的。

Like, there's a reason that I pay for Gmail to like operate my email.

结果发现，当SMTP版本得升级的时候，真的挺烦人的。

It's like, it turns out it kind of stinks when you're like, the SMTP version needs upgraded.

我根本不在乎这些技术细节。

You're like, I don't care.

我就是想正常收邮件而已。

Like, I just wanna receive email.

因为我得自己运行这些个人助手，才真正体会到那种痛苦——我想要的产品根本不存在，只好自己动手做，结果还得长期承担维护成本。

And so, like, as I've had to run my own agents for my personal life, like, I've had to experience that pain of, like, the product I want doesn't exist and I built it, and now I get the ongoing cost of it.

说实话，我现在买的软件比以前多多了，因为我想通了。

And, like, I'll be honest, I'm buying more software these days than I ever did before because I'm like, you know what?

那个工具看着不错。

That that tool seems cool.

不如直接花钱让别人帮我运行这些助手。

Like, I'm just gonna pay somebody else to run my agent for me.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

作为一个写过不少随手搭工具的人，一方面，个人维护确实麻烦，另一方面，我也写过一些真正上线投产的工具。

As someone who has vibe coded my fair share of tools, a, yes, the personal maintenance, but b, I have vibe coded tools that we've we've released into production.

让我告诉你，这根本不是简单地说‘修个bug’就能搞定的。

And let me tell you, it's not it's not as simple as saying, like, fix this bug.

我觉得这一点在所谓的‘SaaS末日’讨论里，完全被忽略了。

And I do think that that's I do think that's saying that that is that is really missed in in the, quote, unquote, SaaSpocalypse discourse.

不过我很好奇，如果你最早做的就是邮件助手，那你现在是怎么处理邮件的？我觉得现在技术已经发展到可以让你几乎不用管邮件，就能把邮件处理好了，这真的让我特别兴奋。

I gotta say, though, if you if one of the first things you did was an email agent, I'm super curious how you're doing your email right now because I feel like things just got to a point where you can, like, kinda just do your email without doing your email, and I'm so excited about it.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实不怎么管了。

I don't yeah.

我可以多讲一点背后的故事。

I can tell a little bit more about the story.

两年前开始的问题是，我在工作中用起了聊天机器人，因为那时候它已经成了主要的交互方式。

So, like, the problem that started two years ago is, I was using chatbots at work because, like, at that point, that was kind of like the primary interface.

那时候，智能代理还没人用呢。

Like, agent usage was not really a thing yet.

我自己的生活呢，孩子在三所不同的学校上学。

And so my my my personal life, like, I have kids in three schools.

如果有家长在听，肯定懂那种收到PTO邮件时的状况，比如今天活动的主题是什么？

And if there are any parents out there listening, you know what it's like to get the PTO emails and the, like, what is the what's the theme for today?

你一定也懂那种漏看消息的感觉——要是错过了精神日，孩子没穿搞怪发型的衣服，那种挫败感简直让人觉得自己当了个失败的父母，我可不止一次经历过。

And, like, you know the feeling of, like, a missed like, this is, the worst parent feeling in the world, but, like, if you miss the spirit day because your kid didn't do crazy hair day, like, you feel like you have failed at life, I will tell you that, and having done it more than once.

所以我下定决心，不能再漏掉一次了。

And so I was like, I can't I can't miss another one.

我就想，我手里有什么资源呢？

And I was like, you know what I have?

那是因为我每天得盯住十五封邮件。

I have and it was because I had to track, you know, 15 emails a day.

你以为企业里发的邮件已经够多了？

Like, you think we produce a lot of email in corporate America.

你等到学校里那些家委会邮件就知道了。

Wait till you get to the PTO emails you get at school.

于是我心想，诶，要不这样？

And so I was like, you know what?

这么多邮件我根本看不过来，但AI代理可以啊。

I can't read all these, but who can Agents.

我就想，为啥不能直接用市面上那些代理平台来处理呢？

And I was like, why can't I just do this in, you know, one of the agent many agent platforms out there?

我当时觉得，缺的其实就是能连上邮箱这个功能。

And I was like, the missing part here is, like, I just wanna hook it up to email.

所以最早的那个版本，就是直接抓邮箱里的最新邮件，扔给一个大模型，再把回复直接吐回来。

And so the very first first version of it was just literally, like, grab an email inbox, look for the top email, and literally paste it like, one of the LLMs and, like, dump the response back.

我知道你们总爱聊提示词，那时候我最常用的提示就是：把邮件转过来，然后只提取关键信息。

And, I know you like to talk a lot about prompts, like, my favorite prompts in those days was basically, like, forward the email, and it would just be extract the facts.

每次我发一封好几页的长邮件，结果只收到三条要点，我都觉得特别不可思议。

And it was always shocking to me that I would send, like, a multi page email and get, like, three bullet points back.

确实如此。

That is yeah.

我记得那些日子。

I I remember those days.

那时候又要连线又要复制粘贴，感觉好像已经很久以前了，其实才一两年前而已。

Like, the the wiring up and the copy and pasting, and I feel like that's so far away, but it's only, like, a year or two ago.

对。

Yeah.

说到智能代理，我后来加了个记忆系统。

Well then, like, you know, to to your point about agents, so then I've added a memory system.

对吧？

Right?

因为你提到的，我还没完全自动化，也不太敢让它替我回邮件，但有了记忆系统，整个体验就彻底不一样了。

Because, like, to your point, I've, like, haven't fully automated and, like, not sure that I trust it to reply on my behalf, but, like, having the memory system was, a total unlock.

现在我把它升级成这样：每天会有一个总结，这还挺有意思的。

And, like, now how I've evolved it is, like, I have a daily so, like, this is an interesting thing.

比如Open Claw，我觉得它挺有意思，但真正让它爆发的，是那个主动推送的功能。

Like, Open Claw, feel, like, hit on this, but, like, the proactive part is I think the thing that really, like, set it on fire.

我的做法是让代理每天固定时间，把所有内容整理成摘要，发一封邮件给我。

And my version of that was, I would have my agent, like, take a summary of all that stuff and send me an email every day at a certain time.

对我来说，最大的突破就是不用再去工具里主动查询，它自己就出现了。

And, like, the unlock for me was, like, instead of having to go to a tool and ask for the thing, like, it was just like it would show up.

当然，它也没多智能。

Now not that it was particularly smart.

就是每天同一时间准时发一次。

It would just do it the same time every day.

但我认为，代理的未来会更主动得多。

But, like, I think where agents are going, it's, like, much more proactive.

再想想，是不是该主动联系负责人，告诉他们当前的情况？

And then, like, you know, thinking about, like, do I need to reach out and contact my owner and let them know what's going on?

如果你几年前是那样操作的，那现在有哪些工作流程是你特别依赖、觉得特别棒的？

So if if that was the like, where you were a couple years ago, like, are what are the, you know, what are the workflow things that you have now that you rely on that you're excited about?

所以你好像在 OpenCLOB 里用了一些简单的功能。

So it seems like there's some sort of brief functionality you're using in OpenCLOB.

不过你最近在折腾哪些东西，是特别喜欢的？

But what are a couple of things that, you know, you've been tinkering with that you like?

我觉得我现在在工作上正试着搞清楚的一件事，就是总结归纳。

I think one of the things I'm trying to figure out, like, in my work life is around summarization.

我觉得工作的一部分，就是得理解海量信息，然后弄清楚怎么筛选这些信息，怎么让我的助手学会分辨哪些重要、哪些不重要。

Like, I think part of the job is, like, understanding an immense amount of information and then, like, figuring out, like, how do I filter that information and how do I imbue my agents with that skill of this is the thing that matters and this doesn't.

但这个问题其实特别难，因为你读的东西里，第一眼觉得没用的，往往后面才发现有用。

And then it's actually a really hard problem because there's a lot of stuff that you read and that the first pass you're like, oh, that doesn't matter.

过三天之后，它突然就变得关键了。

And then it will matter three days later.

那你到底该怎么定义，哪些信息重要、哪些不重要呢？

And it's like, how do you describe, like, which things matter and which things don't?

而且感觉助手就像这样，我有时候会让它帮我梳理所有的会议记录。

It also feels like the agents are a little bit like, you know, one of the things that I will have it do is go through all my meetings.

公司里所有的会议我们都录下来存在Notion里，让Codex帮我逐个梳理，挑出我觉得可能感兴趣的内容，这真的很棒，这样我即使没参加也能掌握所有信息。

And like all the meetings in the company, we recorded all in notion so I can have Codex just like go through all the meetings, be like, here's all the stuff that you might be interested in, which is really cool because I can be in all these meetings that I'm not in.

但问题是，如果它给我的东西不太对，我一指出不对，它反而过度调整，把我之前说想要的全都堆给我，还特别死板，结果就是怎么都不够准，总觉得哪里怪怪的。

But then it feels like if it gives me stuff that is not quite right and I tell it it's not quite right, it overcorrects and gives me all of the things that I said I wanted, but, like, way too much and way too literally, you know, and it's just like you're never it's never quite right somehow in in in this weird way.

是的。

Yeah.

我很好奇你现在在这方面的进展如何，因为我觉得这目前还是个没解决的难题。

I was curious to see where you're at on that because, like, I I feel like this is, one of the unsolved problems at this point.

我觉得我们都在摸索，就像你提到的邮件和收件箱，你已经完全自动化了吗？

It's, like, I think we're all kind of grasping for, like like you said, like, any I guess you mentioned, like, with the email and the like, your inbox, like, you fully automated it?

它会替你回邮件吗？

Like, does it reply on your behalf?

还是说每封邮件你都要亲自审核？

Or, like, do you approve every reply?

具体是怎么操作的？

Or, like, what does that look like?

每封回信我都得亲自确认。

I have to approve every reply.

不过我在Codex里弄了个小应用，通过Codex的内置浏览器打开，它是在本地运行的。

But, what I have what I do is in Codex, I have a little app that, like, I open in the Codex in app browser that and the app runs locally.

每天它都会扫描我所有的邮件，然后列出一份清单，每封邮件旁边都附着一个草稿，写着它打算怎么回复。

And, basically, every day, it just sweeps through all my emails and then gives me a list of here's here every email is like on that page and there's a draft that it has said, here's here's what I'm gonna probably try to reply to.

因为它能访问我电脑上的所有信息，比如收到律师的邮件，它就能去查相关资料，然后告诉我：‘我觉得你应该这么回。’

And because it has access to my computer and everything, like if it's an email from the lawyer my lawyers or whatever, it can like go and search and like be like, here's basically what I think I should say.

然后我就逐条浏览，跟它对话调整。

And then I just scroll through and talk to it.

我们有个叫Monologue的工具。

We have this tool called monologue.

我就对着它自言自语，说‘改一下’或者‘对，就这样’。

I just like monologue into it and just say, no, go fix this or yes.

你可以直接发送这个草稿，或者说‘不’，随便你。

You can send that draft or no or whatever.

我已经连续四周保持收件箱清零了，这可是头一回，真不敢相信。

And I I've been at inbox zero for, like, four weeks straight, and that is, like, a huge I've never it's never happened before.

我的助理都问我：这到底发生啥了？

My assistant is like, what the fuck is going on here?

我

I

我坦白说，我确实是收件箱清零主义的信徒。

will fully admit I am part of the religion of inbox zero.

我这么坚持好多年了，真心信这套，但确实特别费劲。

So I've been running it for many years, and I believe in it, but it sure does take a lot of work.

我对那个‘独白’工具挺好奇的。

I'd be curious about the monologue thing.

你是直接对着它说话，还是打字跟它交流？

Do you actually talk to it, or do you type to it?

对。

Yeah.

它能处理视频吗，还是现在只支持音频？

Does it know video, or is it only just the audio?

目前只支持音频。

It's only audio right now.

明白了。

Yeah.

这其实是大多数人不知道的一个小技巧。

That is one of again, hidden tips for, like, most people.

音频这个功能真的特别强大。

Like, the audio unlock is huge.

我后来发现，对着电脑说话确实有点怪。

And, like, one of the things that I've learned about it is, like, it's kind of weird to talk to your computer.

所以我用的办法是多用Loom，假装在给谁做屏幕共享，这样说话就没那么别扭了，也能更自然地把问题讲清楚。

And so, like, my trick for that is, like, actually use Loom a lot because it feels less weird to pretend like I'm screen sharing to somebody, and that allows me to, like, actually talk through the problem.

这太有意思了。

That's so funny.

就是在办公室里吗？

Like, at in the office?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得吧，我主要在家做，所以别人听不到我自言自语。

Like, I feel well, I guess I do it from home mostly, so I don't people don't hear me talking to myself.

但就算在办公室，我觉得别人也不会多想，顶多以为你在开Zoom会议。

But, like, even in the office, I feel like people aren't like, they'll just think you're on a Zoom or something.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

以前确实存在这么一道心理障碍。

There there's always there was this, like, barrier at some point.

现在办公室里所有人都不跟我说话了。

Now now everyone in the office, I just they're not talking to me.

我猜他们都是在跟电脑说话。

I assume they're talking to their computer.

所以当他们突然跟我讲话时，感觉特别怪。

So it's, like, weird when they're talking to me.

我们生活的这个世界啊。

What a world we live in.

真是个奇怪的世界。

What a world.

我懂。

I know.

但我觉得这已经变成一种社交默契了，你能看出来他们是不是在盯着电脑。

But I think that it's it became this this, like, social thing where you kind of like you can see, are they looking at their computer?

还是说他们抬头看了？

Are they looking up?

或者呢，他们还会压低声音，凑近电脑，小声说：你帮我做一下这个小事儿。

Or, like, there's also, like, the whisper, you know, just like they're just, like, getting kinda close to their computer, and they're like, I I want you to, like, do this little thing.

而且呢

And and

然后你就回：好。

and you're like, okay.

我明白这背后是怎么回事了。

I know what's going on here.

但说话的速度快了将近一倍。

But it's, like, twice as fast.

我一时想不起具体叫什么了。

I forget what it is.

我不太确定。

I don't know.

说话的速度大概是打字的两到三倍。

It's, like, roughly twice or three times as fast to talk than type.

而且我有腕管综合征之类的毛病，用语音能减轻手部负担。

And, like, I've got, you know, carpal tunnel and shit, so, it it doesn't aggravate my hands as much.

这样更符合人体工学。

It's much more ergonomic.

所以确实如此。

So yeah.

语音输入对我来说简直是巨大的突破。

I huge huge unlock to use voice.

不过我想再回到我们之前聊的那件事上，就是……

I do wanna get back though to the the original thing that we were talking about, which is okay.

我觉得咱们的想法是一致的。

Let's just let's just say, I think we're we're on the same page.

所谓的‘SaaS末日’根本不存在。

SaaSpocalypse, not a not a thing.

真正做出一个能稳定运行的SaaS软件，是件特别耗力的事，只有少数人愿意干，大多数人只想直接花钱买现成的。

Like actually making a piece of SaaS software that works all the time is a gigantic effort that only some some people want to do and other people just want to pay for.

But then let's like dive more, more distinctly down into Figma land.

But then let's like dive more, more distinctly down into Figma land.

So, you know, there are questions about.

So, you know, there are questions about.

In a in a design world.

In a in a design world.

What kind of a do I want to just chat with my landing page and move things around that way?

What kind of a do I want to just chat with my landing page and move things around that way?

Or do I want to be on the infinite canvas?

Or do I want to be on the infinite canvas?

And I know internally, like pretty much all of our designers, they're super, I pulled super early adopters and they're all like.

And I know internally, like pretty much all of our designers, they're super, I pulled super early adopters and they're all like.

Yeah, like the, you know, typing is good for a first pass, but like to actually get the details right, I need to be able to like move stuff around.

Yeah, like the, you know, typing is good for a first pass, but like to actually get the details right, I need to be able to like move stuff around.

So in in in the design world, like how does that change?

So in in in the design world, like how does that change?

当设计的可能性发生如此根本性的变化时，你认为这会对产品策略产生什么影响？

How do you think that changes the product strategy when the the possibilities for how you might design something have changed so radically?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这背后涉及的内容太多了，我们现在还处在早期阶段，正在慢慢摸索。

I mean, I think it's a lot to unpack and I think, you know, we're in the early innings here and we're kind of figuring out.

我觉得我们还陷在文本框思维的惯性里。

I think we're still in kind of this hangover of like the text box rules.

很多人下意识地把聊天当成生成式界面的默认体验。

Like, I think so much of us are defaulting to like chat as the experience for generative UI.

但我觉得，我们正进入第二阶段——真正去思考这意味着什么，这也是我对我们即将推出的智能代理功能如此兴奋的原因。

And I feel like we're starting to enter the second chapter of that of like what does it mean and like that's part of the reason I'm so excited about our agents launch.

我们内部其实已经用了一段时间了。

Like, we've had it internally for a while.

还没见过的人注意了，这个功能允许你直接在无限画布上使用智能代理。

And for those who haven't seen it yet, it's the ability to use an agent directly on the Infinite Canvas.

回头想想，挺有意思的是，旧的东西又重新流行起来了。

And I think going back, it's funny about, like, what's old is new again.

在大模型和机器学习领域，这种现象挺多的，比如我们重新发明了评估方法。

Like, there's a lot of, like, this happening throughout LLM and ML land of, like, we've reinvented eval.

所以说，是这么个情况。

So it's like, okay.

其实我们以前就有单元测试了。

Well, we had unit tests before.

我们又重新发明了提示词的设计。

And it's like, well, we've reinvented, like, prompting.

以前就有用户输入了，现在又来一遍，嗯，情况就是这样。

And we, like, we had user input before, and it's like, okay.

在新的AI时代，设计的核心原则依然重要。

And design in the new, like, AI era is still, like the the principles still matter.

对吧？

Right?

对我而言，设计的一个核心原则就是‘发散—收敛’模式。

And so, like, one of the principal core principles of design for me is, like, the the die the diamond.

这背后其实讲的是发散思维和收敛思维的结合。

And so, like, there's this idea of, like, divergent thinking and then convergent thinking.

很多设计问题都是这样，这也是头脑风暴的精髓——千万别一上来就否定别人的点子。

And, like, most design problems are, like and, like, this is the idea behind brainstorms and when people tell you, like, don't ever, you know, shoot somebody's idea down.

头脑风暴的关键，就是先把想法全甩出来。

Like, brainstorming is all about just, like, generating ideas.

我觉得我们还没完全发挥出这些新技术的潜力，尤其是它们能极大激发创造性思维的能力。

And one of the things that I don't think we fully unlocked yet from these new capabilities is, like, the ability to, like, supercharge generative thinking.

我们常常被自己的经验和固有思维困住，看问题总绕不开那个角度。

I think oftentimes we get stuck in our own stories and lived experience and we approach a problem from a certain angle.

所以团队合作才这么重要。

And this is what's so valuable about having teammates.

对吧？

Right?

你去跟同事聊，发现人家的出发点完全不一样，结果问题的答案也跟着变了。

It's like you go to talk to your teammate and they have a totally different starting point and it's like the answer to this problem is different.

真正的创意往往就发生在你们俩对话的时候，比如：‘哎，我怎么就没从这个角度想过呢？’

And, like, the creativity comes between the conversation between the two of you of like, oh, like, hadn't thought about it from that angle.

这挺有意思的。

That's interesting.

让我拿这个想法再往下延伸一下。

Let me take it and then build on top of that.

对吧？

Right?

那回到现在这个AI时代，这到底意味着什么？

And so, like, going back to the, like, what does this mean in this new AI world?

我觉得文字框太局限了，总是一板一眼，先这样、再那样、然后又这样。

If we get outside of the text boxes because I think text boxes are super limiting and it's very much like a linear, like, well, this and then that and then this.

要是能跳到画布上，保留那些核心思路，但借助智能代理实现更发散的思考，那就不同了，比如：嘿。

If we get to the canvas and you have the ability to, like, have some of those same kind of concepts, but the agents allow you to do different gen thinking that it's like, hey.

我有这么一个框架。

Like, I have this frame.

咱们就从这儿开始吧。

Let start here.

嘿，是这样。

It's like, hey.

我觉得应该用灰度。

I think it should be grayscale.

然后你再换一个框架。

Then you have another frame.

你可能会想，要不试试SIPA？

You're like, oh, let me try SIPA.

结果发现SIPA倒是不错，就是字体不太对。

And then it's like, oh, the SIPA thing is cool, but, like, the type is wrong.

于是你又想，要不试试这个？

And it's like, oh, let me try that.

现在无障碍功能好像被关闭了。

Now it's like the accessibility is off.

我来复制一下这个框架，再试一次。

Let me, like, duplicate the frame and try again.

我觉得，就连这个也还只是刚开始阶段。

And so, like, I think and even that is still, like, I think early innings.

这完全是人在主导输入过程。

That's, like, very much, like, the human driving the input.

对吧？

Right?

你之前好像提到过那种主动推进的流程。

And, like, you kind of have talked about the, like, proactive flow.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我们正慢慢弄清楚，要是有个智能代理，能直接处理我放在画布上的一堆框架，会怎么样？

And it's, I think we're starting to figure out, like, what if we had an agent that's, like, here's a bunch of frames that I threw on the canvas.

你的任务是引导他们尝试不同的方向，别一味地固执己见。

Like, your job is to, like, push them, like try different directions or don't just, double down.

但我觉得还有一类代理，比如现在画布上有25个关于新营销页面的概念草图。

But then I think there's a separate set of agents that it's like, okay, we have 25 frames on this canvas of, like, concepts for, like, a new marketing page.

对吧？

Right?

那接下来该怎么把它们聚焦起来呢？

And then it's like, how do I channel them down?

这时候就需要一个收敛型代理，它会说：这三个方向有共性，那几个又集中在另一个思路下。

So like, then there's like a convergent agent that's like, okay, these three are kind of like this and these are clustered around this.

而且你可以问它怎么看。

And like, I think And you can ask it for its opinion.

你可以让它假装是用户，点击浏览这些方案，然后说：哪一个最合理？

You're like, pretend you're like a customer clicking through this, like which one makes the most sense, right?

我觉得这些潜力我们还没真正挖掘出来。

And so I don't think we've really tapped all of that stuff yet.

所以我觉得，就算是最好的代理工具，比如命令行那种，也没法真正完成这些工作流程。

And so like, I think even the best agents, like the command line agents, like don't have the ability to like do those workflows.

我觉得，这就是未来设计和产品思维的方向。

And so that's kind of where I see the future of design and product thinking.

这我完全同意。

I think that makes total sense.

而且根据我目前看到的情况，代理工具在已经有设计系统的情况下特别有用。

And, yeah, it seems like from what I can tell so far, the agents are really good for I already have a design system.

我需要一个新首页。

I need a new landing page.

就是那种‘帮我基于我现有的设计系统生成一个首页’之类的需求，说实话，很多设计师并不想花时间反复做第N个首页，或者第N张海报、图示之类的，这类任务更偏向收敛型，不太需要发散创意。

Like, get me the get me a landing page in the in the design system I already have kind of thing, which, to be honest, a lot of designers don't really wanna have to spend time doing the the nth landing page or the nth, like, graphic for this, you know, post or whatever, which is more convergent and a little bit less divergent.

那关于未来，比如Figma这样的设计工具，或者一般软件，是该允许外部代理接入，还是该自己开发代理，或者两者并用——你们现在其实都同时在用，你觉得这该怎么平衡？

What about what about, like, the future of, you know, maybe Figma design tools or just general generally software with allowing external agents in versus building your own agent or having both, which you which you all do have, how does how do you think that works?

我觉得，我们两种方式都会采用。

I mean, I think we embrace both.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得设计流程和工程流程本来就不一样，但现在这两者之间的界限越来越模糊了。

Like, and I think this is like I think design workflows are different than engineering workflows, but, like, the lines are blurring.

所以我觉得未来大家都会变成创造者。

And so, like, I think in the future we're gonna be all builders.

对吧？

Right?

这其实取决于你从哪个角度去看这个问题。

And that kind of comes like which perspective are you coming at the problem from?

我们目前非常支持第三方代理工具。

And so we definitely very much support third party agents today.

我们对此的解决方案就是我们的MCP服务器。

And like our answer for that is our MCP server.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得MCP的一个好处是，它为各种不同的工具提供了一个标准化的接口。

And so I think one of the nice things about MCP is like it allows like a standardized interface across all these different kinds of tools.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们通常从两个方向来思考这个问题。

And so we kind of think about the problem in two directions.

一个是代码到设计的方向。

We think about it as like code to design.

就像你刚才说的那种情况，其实挺常见的。

So it's like, okay, in that scenario you just said like, that's like a pretty common thing.

比如你有个注册页面，但没支持GDPR。

You're like, hey, have a signup page, but like, it doesn't support GDPR.

对吧？

Right?

大多数人其实并不清楚自己该怎么做。

Like, most people are not gonna be like, know what I should do?

我先从一个全新的页面开始，重新设计我们的注册流程，加入GDPR要求。

I'm gonna start with a greenfield page and reimagine what our sign up flow should be to add GDPR.

大多数人只是想把工作做完。

Most people are trying to get their job.

你周一早上登录系统，心里就想：好了，赶紧把这事搞定。

It's like you log in on Monday morning, you're like, okay, I just gotta get this thing done.

对吧？

Right?

然后就在那儿加个勾选框。

And like, me add the checkbox here.

对吧？

Right?

所以对于这种工作流程，如果你熟悉Codex、Claude、Windsurf或者Cursor，就可以打开你的代码库，启动MCP服务器，然后说：帮我打开这个页面，启动开发服务器，把页面内容复制到Figma画布上。

And so for that workflow, it's like if you are comfortable in Codex or Claude or Windsurf or Cursor, you pull up your code base, you fire up the MCP server and you ask it like, hey, can you copy go to this page like, fire up the dev server, go to this page, and copy it into Figma Canvas.

它真的能帮你完成。

And it will actually do it.

这其实是今年早些时候我们推出的一个功能，简直让人惊讶，AI代理居然能这么准确地完成这种任务，但事实就是它们能做到。

Like, that's one of the releases we had earlier this year, which is like a little bit mind blowing that agents can do this faithfully, but it turns out they can.

现在，你把这些繁琐的活儿全给省了。

And now you have just removed all that drudgery.

对吧？

Right?

而且你还把它放到了一个可以真正交互的环境中。

That and you've got it into, like, a medium where you can actually interact with it.

就好比说，

It's like, okay.

让我用那些大家平时都熟悉的直接操作工具，精确地调整各个元素的位置。

Let me go, like, move things around very precisely with the direct manipulation tools that most people are comfortable with.

另外一种我们常考虑的流程是，既然设计已经做好了，那就把这个设计重新转回代码。

And then the other kind of workflow that we think about is like, okay, now that we've got the design, take that design and bring it back to code.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们开发了一个叫 Git 设计上下文的工具，它能把 Figma 设计稿里的所有属性、组件，还有你在设计库里设定的规范，全都打包好交给智能代理。

And so we've got a tool called Git design context, which takes a Figma design, wraps up all the different properties and, like, components that you're using as well as, like, any other kind of guidelines you've provided in your design library and provides it to the agent.

而且，这简直就像魔法一样。

And, again, it's kind of like magic.

代理会说：好的，明白了。

It's like the agent will be like, okay, cool.

让我看看你现在的代码库。

Let me, like, look at your current code base.

我来建个分支，提个合并请求，做修改，然后你只要问代理一声：好了。

I'll make a branch, create a PR, make the changes, and then, like, you ask the agent and be like, okay.

截个图，贴到合并请求里。

Take me a screenshot and put on the PR.

这时候你的工作，就跟之前你提到的邮件流程差不多。

And then, like, your job is, like, kinda like what you're talking about your workflow earlier with email.

你不用直接合并，但你会说：行，知道了。

It's like, you don't merge it, but you're like, okay.

嗯，我现在有个不错的起点。

Well, I've got a a good starting spot.

对吧？

Right?

然后你就可以进去自由发挥。

And then it's like you can come in there and then riff.

在开发内部智能代理时，你学到了哪些以前在Figma代理之前不知道的、能让用户体验更好的关键点？

What do you what have you learned about what makes for a good internal agent experience internal to a product that you may not have known before before Figma agent?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这倒是个有意思的问题。

Like, that's like a interesting question.

什么样的产品才算好用？

What would make it a good product?

我觉得这特别针对Figma，但上下文和个性化真的很重要。以前我在其他AI公司做产品时，个性化常常是最后才考虑的事。

I think specific this is like very specific to Figma, but like the context and personalization matters, like in other products like I've worked on in the past for like AI companies is like personalization is often like the kind of the last thing.

首先得让所有人都能用起来。

Like you get it just working for everybody first.

但我认为，真正让普通助手变成让人爱不释手的，是个性化这个部分。

But I think the thing that really differentiates like an okay agent to one that people really love is the personalization aspect.

就像我们之前说的，记忆是一种方式，还有那些第三方聊天助手。

Like we talked about memory, like as a form of it and these like third party chat agents.

我觉得在Figma里，这个个性化体现就是设计系统。

I think for Figma's version of that, it's like the design system.

如果你有个助手，却没把‘我们是怎么搭建设计、怎么组合元素的’这套规则教给它，那它做的东西根本没法用。

That it's like if you have assistant but without, like, the concept of, well, this is, like, how we structure our designs and, like, how we put them together.

它生成的设计，从这个角度看根本派不上用场。

Like, the designs that it create just aren't usable from that perspective.

我不太清楚你们对Figma和那种主动型助手有什么规划。

I don't know, like, what your plans are for Figma and and, you know, the, like, proactive being, like, being a proactive agent.

但如果你真有这些计划或实验，我很想知道现在进展怎么样。

But I'm curious to the extent you have those plans and those experiments, how that's working?

很明显，我们之前也提到过，这件事要做好确实不容易。

Obviously, like we've talked about that being kinda hard to get right.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得未来肯定会朝这个方向发展。

I mean, I think that's where the future is going.

你看一下智能代理这些年来是怎么演进的。

Like, if you look at, like, how, like, agents have kind of evolved.

我们内部现在正在推进很多项目。

I will say we've got a lot of things cooking internally.

不过具体细节我暂时不方便多说。

I don't know I can't talk about specifics too much.

我确信我们在这一块是走在前面的。

I definitely think this is an area we run ahead.

对吧？

Right?