Toxic work behaviours, mind blanking, and why spending time with friends makes you more yourself

BBC Sounds

BBC Sounds.

音乐、广播和播客

Music, radio, podcasts.

你好

Hi there.

我是克劳迪娅·哈蒙德

I'm Claudia Hammond.

接下来你要收听的是《全在心中》的另一期节目

You're about to listen to another episode of All in the Mind.

每周都会在你常用的播客平台更新新一期内容

Episodes will be released weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

但如果你在英国，可以通过BBC Sounds提前一周率先收听最新一期节目

But if you're in The UK, you can listen to the latest episodes a whole week earlier than anywhere else first on BBC Sounds.

在本节目中，我们致力于探讨与人类心理相关的各种话题

Now on this show, we pride ourselves on covering a real range of topics relating to the human mind.

今天，我们要为大家带来心理学和神经科学领域的一系列精彩内容。

And today, we're bringing you an eclectic mix from the worlds of psychology and neuroscience.

这次，我们有幸邀请到谢菲尔德哈勒姆大学的心理学高级讲师皮特·奥卢索加博士来为我们做介绍。

And to guide us through it, I'm joined by Doctor Pete Olusoga, who's a senior lecturer in psychology at Sheffield Hallam University.

皮特，很高兴你再次来到我们的节目。

Pete, very nice to have you back here.

你最近怎么样？

How are you?

我挺好的。

I'm good.

谢谢。

Thank you.

能回来真好。

It's nice to be back.

这期心理大杂烩节目里，我们带来了一项研究，可能会让你联系亲朋好友，告诉他们科学研究表明，你们应该多花些时间在一起。

Well, on our psychological smorgasbord this week, we've got some research which may have you contacting loved ones to tell them that the science says you should spend more time together.

哪些人能让你展现出最好的一面？

Who are the people who bring out the best version of you?

我们还会聊聊，当你大脑突然一片空白，意识到自己根本没在思考任何事情时，会发生什么。

And we're gonna talk about what happens when your mind goes completely blank and you realise you've not been thinking about anything at all.

我觉得我有时候就是这样。

I think I have that sometimes.

Pete，你也有过这种情况吗？

Pete, does that ever happen to you?

没有，我从来没有。

No, it doesn't.

我的脑子从来不会停。

My mind does not stop.

稍后我们会弄清楚，是不是真有人会这样，以及这是否意味着我们当时失去了意识。

Well, we'll find out whether some of people's minds do do that later on, and the question of whether this represents a moment when we're not conscious.

我向你保证，Pete，听你讲的时候我一定专心，绝不走神。

And I promise to attention Pete and not to zone out while you're talking about it.

这听起来不错。

Well that's good to hear.

不过我们先从工作、邮件说起。

But we're starting with work, with emails.

上周我请你们分享在邮件里觉得最不礼貌的行为，你们说了不少。

Last week I asked you to let us know what you find really rude in emails and you had plenty to say about it.

Pete，我能不能请你把这些邮件念出来分享一下？

And Pete, I wonder if I can hand you some of these to share.

给你，这些都是我们收到的一些邮件。

There you go, these are some of the emails we had.

曼彻斯特的Rachel说，她最烦的是有人发邮件直接写个名字就开讲，连个‘你好’都不带，比如直接写‘Pete’，她觉得这种过度正式的语气总让她感觉像被训斥了一样。

Rachel in Manchester says What annoys her is people who start their emails with just your name and without a simple greeting like hi, so just saying Pete, she says the unnecessary formality always has the effect of putting her immediately on the defensive in a sense of being reprimanded for something.

我真没想过这一点。

I had not thought of that.

我也没想过。

No, hadn't either.

这儿有个匿名反馈，说最近有人回了他一封精心措辞的邮件，只发了个表情符号。

We've got an anonymous one here, who recently received a single emoji in response to a carefully considered and worded email.

哦，他对此很不爽？

Oh, and they weren't happy with that?

对，特别不爽。

No.

西蒙说，这事儿看着挺小的，但我特别讨厌别人邮件结尾只写名字的首字母，而且往往前面连句‘祝你今天愉快’这样的客气话都没有。

And Simon says, It may seem to be a very trivial thing, but I loathe it when people sign off their emails with either just the first letter of their name, usually exacerbated by the lack of any preceding friendly comments such as 'have a lovely day'.

我发现，发件人职位越高，这种做法越常见，好像在暗示：我多重要、多忙，连多打几个字的时间都没有。

And I've noticed this is more common the more senior the sender, as if they're trying to remind us how important and busy they are, so much so they haven't got time to type a few more characters.

我觉得我可能也会这么做。

I think I'd do that.

我其实也可能会这么做。

I think I'd do that as well actually.

我本来以为

I thought

一开始那样做还挺好的，至少能让你更了解对方，不过我觉得这事儿挺没准儿的，也许也没那么糟。

it was quite nice to do an initial, like, you know, show you know them well and it's, you know, it's kind of fickle I thought, but maybe not.

你有什么看法？

What have you got?

我收到马克的一封邮件，他说他不喜欢

I've got an email from Mark who says that doesn't like

别人一发邮件就用‘嘿’开头，尤其是明明已经认识他的时候。

it when people start an email with hey, especially if they already know him.

他说在大背景下这事儿微不足道，但就是让他挺烦的。

He says it's trivial in the grand scheme of things, but it doesn't stop him from being irritated.

这倒也说得通。

Fair enough.

明白了。

Okay.

到目前为止，我们总结出：不希望对方用‘嘿’开头，也不希望只留个名字，但名字又不能少，而且名字后面绝对不能只跟个首字母。

So, so far, we've got, you don't want hey, but you don't want just the name either, but you do need the name, and and you mustn't leave an initial after it.

挺有意思的

Quite a

令人震惊，这真让人想不到

mind blowing, It's mind isn't

是的

yes.

我相信这些情况肯定让不少人有共鸣，说实话，我现在有点担心自己是不是也干过这些事。

Well, I'm sure some of those must ring bells for people, and honestly, now I am worrying I might have done all of these things.

不过咱们再深入了解一下，因为你知道，在《All in the Mind》这个节目里，我们特别看重研究和实证。

But let's find out a little more, because as you know, here on All in the Mind, we love research and evidence.

现在请来的是来自萨塞克斯大学的职业心理学家艾玛·拉塞尔博士，她研究的是她所说的‘不礼貌邮件’。

Now, Doctor Emma Russell is an occupational psychologist from the University of Sussex and she researches what she calls uncivil emails.

她认为，随着工作压力加大，很多人觉得要做的事越来越多，时间却越来越少，人更容易焦躁，也更可能发出这类不礼貌的邮件。

And she believes that as work intensifies, with many people finding they've got more to do and less time in which to do it, we're more frazzled and more at risk of sending one of these uncivil emails.

艾玛，非常感谢你参与我们的节目。

So Emma, thank you so much for joining us.

听起来我并不是唯一一个有时会被收到的邮件惹恼的人。

And it sounds as though I'm not alone in sometimes perhaps getting annoyed by the emails I receive.

我们该怎么判断别人在邮件里对我们不礼貌呢？

How can we spot that somebody's being rude to us in an email?

我做的研究关注一种叫‘邮件无礼行为’的现象。

Well, the research that I do looks at something that's called email incivility.

‘无礼’是个很具体的词，指的是不礼貌或不尊重的交流方式。

So, instability is a very specific term because it refers to discourteous or disrespectful exchanges.

早期的很多研究都是想把无礼行为和其他职场不当行为区分开，比如欺凌或虐待式管理。

I think a lot of the initial research into this was differentiating instability from other types of workplace mistreatment, which could include things like bullying or abusive supervision.

研究无礼行为的一个难点在于，它的语气和强度通常都比较低。

And what can be quite tricky about studying instability is it's much lower in terms of its tone and its intensity.

所以我们很难判断对方是不是真的有意伤害你。

So it can actually be quite difficult for us to understand if the person was intending to be harmful.

即使对方可能根本没想伤害人，这种行为还是会对我们造成真实影响吗？

Can it still have a real impact on us though, even if, I don't know, even if perhaps they didn't intend it?

是的，问题就在这里。

Yeah, so this is the thing.

这也就是为什么它成了一个重要的研究领域，因为现在已有大量研究证实了电子邮件不礼貌行为的影响。

I mean, is why it's such a big field of study because we've now got lots and lots of research that tells us about the impact of email instability.

这对当今的组织来说是个严重的问题。

And it's a really major problem for organisations today.

它对员工的生产力、身心健康、缺勤率和人员流失都有显著影响。

So it has really significant effect in terms of productivity of workers, well-being of workers, absenteeism, staff turnover.

那你知道人们为什么会发这种不礼貌的邮件吗？

So what do you know about why people send these uncivil emails sometimes?

我想我们每个人偶尔都会这么做。

And I guess we all do it sometimes.

我们发现，研究人员也指出，通常会出现三种类型的回应。

We have noticed and researchers identified that there are kind of three types of response that you might see.

这些回应类似于人类面对压力时的‘战斗或逃跑’反应。

And these are akin to the human stress response, fight and flight.

对抗型反应通常表现为试图压制或贬低他人，邮件语气和用词充满敌意，可能带有讽刺、居高临下，甚至故意抄送给上级，想把事情闹大，让对方难堪。

So a fight response is usually when we try to dominate or belittle other people, emails that are kind of hostile in tone and language, where people are maybe using sarcasm or being condescending, or even CC ing senior personnel in on the message in order to elevate an issue and put someone in their place.

没错，这种做法确实挺烦人的，对吧。

Oh yeah, that's quite an annoying one, isn't Yeah.

这就可以看作是某人采取对抗型反应的一个例子。

So that could be an example of someone kind of engaging in a fight response.

而逃避型反应则是人们通过回避或退缩来保护自己。

Then the flight response is when people try to protect themselves by withdrawing or avoiding.

他们可能会忽略别人的邮件，不回复，或者即使回复了，也不回应所有问题，只是敷衍了事，想赶紧把这事打发掉。

Here they will ignore other people's messages, they won't reply, or if they do reply, maybe they don't answer all of the points in the email, they're not really answering the question, they're just trying to get it off their plate.

还有一种不太为人所知的反应，是出于想与他人建立联系或顺从他人的心理，我们可以称之为顺从型反应。

And then perhaps less well known is the response that's to do with wanting to affiliate yourself or with other people or acquiesce to other people that we would call perhaps a submit response.

这种表现就是有些人过度依赖邮件来维系关系、主动联系别人。

And we can see that where people become overly dependent on using email as a way of making connections and reaching out to people.

这类人常常会越界，总是不停地找你联系。

These are the people that maybe overstep the boundaries a little bit and they're wanting to contact you all the time.

他们太依赖邮件了。

They're overusing email.

我听说你有个小测试，我们现在就可以一起做。

And I gather you've got a little test that we can all take part in now.

是啊，我想和你一起做个测试，克劳迪娅。

Yes, I thought I'd do a little test with you Claudia.

我相信你从来不会参与那种行为。

I'm sure you never ever engage in

绝对不会，社交上绝对不会。

Never, social never,

绝对不会。

never.

不过呢，我和谢菲尔德大学还有苏塞克斯大学的几位同事做了一个研究，发现了一种特别容易引发不文明交流的情境。

But yeah I've been doing a research project with some of my colleagues at Sheffield and Sussex here and we've identified a particular type of scenario that puts you most at risk of instigating an uncivil exchange.

所以我打算给你三个小场景，你看看在哪个情境下你最有可能做出不文明的回应。

So I thought I'll give you three little scenarios and could you identify in which of those scenarios you would be most at risk instigating an uncivil exchange.

好，开始吧。

Okay, here we go.

那咱们开始。

So here we go.

第一个场景，你最近工作特别拼，加班很多，感觉非常累。

So first scenario, you've been working really hard, really long hours and you're feeling very tired.

但你需要同事尽快把某样东西发给你，而且你知道发邮件是拿到所需信息最快的方式。

But you need a colleague to send something across to you as soon as possible and you know that the quickest way for you to get the information that you need is by emailing them.

在第二个场景里，你刚开完会，特别生气，因为有个同事，哦

In the second scenario, you've just been in a meeting and you're really annoyed because a colleague Oh

天哪。

dear.

他 basically 当着所有人的面指责你没做好一件很重要的事，尽管这根本不在你的职责范围内。

Has basically accused you in front of everyone of failing to do something important even though it's well outside your remit.

所以你现在正走回工位，需要给老板发封邮件。

So you're now walking back to your desk and you need to email your boss.

哦，我可能马上就会这么做。

Oh, fear I might do that straight away.

是的。

Yeah.

那另一个情况呢？

And then what's the other one?

最后一个情况：有个同事答应发给你一些重要数据，你要用在报告里。

Final scenario, a colleague has promised to send you some important figures that you need to include in a report.

截止时间是今天下班前。

And the deadline is the end of the working day.

现在已经是下午四点了，你还没收到数据，但你刚才看到这位同事在办公室里和朋友有说有笑。

It's now 04:00, you still haven't received the figures, but you know your colleagues at work today because you saw them earlier chatting and joking with their friends.

所以你现在要发邮件提醒他，要回他答应给你的东西。

So you're gonna email them now to ask for the information that they promised you.

在这几种情况里，你觉得哪一种最可能让你做出不礼貌的举动？为什么？

In which of those scenarios would you be most at risk of being uncivil and why?

我觉得可能是中间那个情况，因为我觉得自己被冤枉了，而其他情况只是别人还没把我要的东西发过来，所以被冤枉我会特别生气，可能会反击。

Oh I think probably the middle one because I felt I'd been accused of something whereas the others it's just that the other people haven't yet sent the thing I need so I'd be upset about being accused and might fight back I think.

好的，很好。

Okay, great.

所以愤怒这种情绪，确实是引发不礼貌行为的一个重要风险因素。

So the feeling of anger is a real risk factor in terms of instigating incivility.

但其实这也不是正确答案，因为你马上就要给老板发邮件了，而人们通常不太敢对上级无礼。

But actually that's not the correct answer because you're about to go and email your boss and it's actually quite unusual for people to perpetrate instability upwards.

哦，我明白了。

Oh, I see.

对上司我们一般会更客气一些。

We're more polite if they're our boss.

那这么说，我们反而会对其他人不礼貌了。

Oh, so in that case, we're gonna be rude to one of the others.

我们的研究发现，最可能出现不礼貌行为的情况，是最后一个场景。

It's the final scenario that our research identified as being when people are most likely perpetrating uncivil responding.

这是因为人们会生气。你会因为别人没把答应给你的东西发过来而感到生气，同时你还面临着时间压力。

And that's because people are angry, so you'd feel angry about the fact that someone hadn't sent you something that they promised you, but you're also under time pressure.

所以你有截止日期，这可能会消耗你的精力。

So you've got a deadline and that's probably depleting your energy levels.

如果你处于那种情况，这时候就该停下来好好想想：现在可不是我急着发邮件的时候。

So if you were in that situation, that would be the time to really pause and think, right, this is not the time for me to start writing my emails.

你觉得有多少人会

And how much do you

关于那些施暴者，有什么了解吗？

know about the perpetrators?

是不是有些人比其他人更频繁地发送这些无礼的邮件？

Are there some people who are sending these rude emails much more often than other people?

对，这是我和拉夫堡大学以及谢菲尔德大学的一些同事正在进行的另一项研究。

Yeah, so that's another study that I've been working on with some of my colleagues at Loughborough and Sheffield University.

我们发现，其实大多数人并不会去实施这种行为，也不会主动挑起不礼貌的举动。

What we've actually identified is that most of us actually don't perpetrate, we don't instigate incivility.

有一小部分人偶尔会表现出不礼貌的行为，但还有一类人。

There is a smaller group of people who do perpetrate incivility occasionally, but there is a third group.

这一类人我们称之为惯犯。

And that third group are what we would call the regular perpetrators.

这些人贯穿多个时间阶段都持续表现出不礼貌行为，但人数真的非常少。

These are the people who are demonstrating perpetration across the time waves and this is a really, really small group of people.

是的，也许只需要给这些人提供一些指导，而不是针对所有人。

Yeah, so maybe it's just those people who need some coaching on it rather than everybody else.

对，如果你发现某人突然变得不礼貌，而这并不符合他们的常态，那很可能是因为压力导致的反应，他们其实需要一些帮助。

Yeah, I think so if you notice someone's being uncivil and that's unusual for them, probably this is some kind of stress response that suggests they could do with some help.

但如果你长期反复主动挑起不礼貌行为，那就说明你长期应对得不好，这类人才是我们真正需要帮助的对象。

But if you're repeatedly instigating over time, then obviously you're not coping well as a kind of long term process and these are the people that we probably need to be helping.

不过，当你特别疲惫、压力很大，而且马上就要到截止时间的时候，

Isn't it really hard though to, at that moment when you're really tired and you're really stressed and you're up

要确保自己不发不礼貌的邮件，或者不对别人发来的信息做出过激反应，这真的很难。

against a deadline and you've got something you've gotta get done to make sure that you don't say anything uncivil in the email or that you don't react really badly to somebody else sending onto you.

确实挺难的，对吧？

It's quite hard, isn't it?

是啊，真的很难。

Yeah, it is really hard.

这可能正是职场中不文明行为越来越多的原因。

And it's quite possible that's why we are seeing the rise in incivility at work.

毕竟，所有研究都表明，工作压力越来越大，要求越来越多，如今的倦怠率比以前高多了。

Because of course, we do know from all of the research that work is becoming more intensified, more extensified, burnout rates are, you know, much higher these days than they used to be.

很可能因为我们每个人都处于高度紧张的状态，更容易做出不理智的反应。

And it's quite possible that because we're operating in these environments where we are all quite frazzled, that we are more at risk of engaging in instability.

有时候，只要意识到这一点，就足以改变我们的行为。

I think sometimes it's just being aware of that can be all it takes sometimes just to change our behaviors.

如果有人是第一次听到这些，也许现在就能停下来想想：我现在状态不好，不适合处理这件事。

And if people are hearing this for the first time, perhaps now that they will have the capacity just to at least take stock and think, okay, I'm really not in the right mind state to deal with this at this particular moment.

这建议太好了。

Such good advice.

我现在会更友善一点。

I'm gonna be nicer now.

我已经决定了，以后要更友善。

I'm gonna be nicer, I've decided.

真的非常感谢你。

Well, thank you so much.

和你聊天真愉快。

Lovely to talk to you.

从现在起，我会仔细审视每一封收到的邮件，也包括我发出去的每一封。

And honestly I'm going to analyse every email I receive now, and every email I send.

虽然花的时间会多很多，但这件事特别有意思，谢谢。

May all take me much longer now, but it's very, very interesting, so thank you.

我是苏塞克斯大学的艾玛·拉塞尔。

Emma Russell from the University of Sussex.

自从和艾玛聊过之后，彼得，我发现自己开始留意了，会想，也许这个人只是压力太大了，心里正不知道该怎么办呢。

And since talking to Emma, have noticed, Pete, that I am looking and I'm seeing and thinking, actually this person might just be really stressed and, you know, wondering what's going on for them.

你觉得刚才那番话怎么样？

What did you what did you make of that?

我平时在工作中很少收到粗鲁或不礼貌的邮件。

I I tend not to get very many rude emails or incivil emails at work.

我觉得学术圈里的人普遍都特别有礼貌。

I think it's something about academia where everyone's just overly polite.

我懂你的意思。

I know what you mean, actually.

我也没收到多少这样的邮件。

I don't get many.

也许我们工作的环境都挺友善的，算我们幸运。

You know, maybe we'd work friendly places, and we're lucky.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我真觉得，动不动就用‘全部回复’的人，简直该被定罪。

But I I do think that people who use reply all, I I think that should be a criminal offense.

你本可以就这件事给我们发个邮件的。

You could have emailed us in about that one.

我确实应该这么做的。

I should have done that.

你自己发就好了。

Yourself.

你有没有注意到，我把那个测试题答错了？

And did you notice I I got the answer to the test wrong there?

你答对了吗？

Did did you get it right?

没有。

No.

我也会跟你一样答错。

I would have said the same thing as you.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

有意思。

Interesting.

当然，我们这里说的是一些偶尔的无礼行为，而不是欺凌。

Now of course, what we're talking about here is occasional rudeness, and so not bullying.

如果真有欺凌情况，那管理层必须介入，员工也需要切实的支持。

And obviously, if there is bullying, then that needs to be addressed by managers, and people need real support for that.

但这种情况会不会让你重新考虑自己发的邮件和收到的邮件呢？

But would this make you think again about the emails you send and emails you receive?

我通常的做法是，如果发邮件前觉得有点生气或烦躁，我会先写好草稿，然后停下来，过一会儿再回头看。

I think what I try and do is if I do feel a little bit annoyed or irritated when I'm about to reply to an email, I will draft it and then stop and go back and look at it later.

所以我确实会很小心，不带着情绪发邮件。

So I do kind of think a little bit carefully about sending emails in anger.

很明智。

Very wise.

你最近有一项新研究，是关于职场中另一种有害行为的。

Now you've got a piece of new research for us about another type of toxic behaviour at work.

这说的是什么？

What is this about?

这项研究讲的是知识窃取，就是有人把你的想法或成果据为己有。

So this is a study about knowledge theft, when somebody takes credit for your ideas or for your work.

为什么知识窃取这么伤人？

And why is knowledge theft so damaging?

别人抢走你的功劳，确实特别不公平，对吧？

It does feel very, very unfair, doesn't it, when someone takes the credit?

当你提出想法或者贡献创意时，这些想法往往就像你自身的一部分。

Well, when you have ideas or when you contribute ideas, often they're almost like a part of a part of you.

你对它们有种所有权的感觉。

You have ownership of of them.

它们就是你的。

Them.

它们和你的自我认同是紧密相连的。

They're They're sort of linked to your sort of identity.

所以当别人拿走这些想法却不提你的名字时，那种感觉就像失去了什么一样。

So when people take those ideas without credit, there's almost a sense of loss involved in that.

不过这确实挺难的，对吧？

It can be quite hard, though, isn't it?

如果大家是团队合作，一起做项目，那就很难说清楚哪个点子具体是谁想出来的。

If people are working as a group and they're collaborating on something, then it's it's hard to know exactly who thought of which bit of it.

确实如此。

It is, yeah.

我觉得可以采取一些措施来帮助明确想法的归属，比如在想法产生时就做好记录，这点我们待会儿在研究里会看到。

And I think there are things that people can put in place to help with the attribution of ideas, like as they're created, as we'll see in this in this study.

对。

Yeah.

所以这篇论文的作者想衡量一下知识剽窃带来的情感影响，同时也尝试了两种可能有帮助的干预方式。

So the authors of this paper wanted to measure what the emotional impact of knowledge theft is, and also to try out two interventions that might help.

他们是怎么做的？

What did they do?

想象一下，你在一家广告公司工作，把一些关于项目的信息分享给同事，还把自己的想法告诉了他们，因为你对这个项目也很感兴趣。

So imagine a scenario in which you're working for an advertising company, and you give some information to a colleague about the project that they're working on, and you share some ideas them because you're interested in that that project too.

后来，这位同事在会议上站起来，把你的想法全都说成是自己的，一点都没提你的名字。

Later on, that colleague stands up in a meeting and presents those ideas without giving you any credit whatsoever.

真的吗？

Mean?

是的。

Yeah.

这项研究正是让参与者设想了这样一个情景。

Well, this is the scenario that these participants were given in this research.

总共有818名参与者。

So 818 participants in total.

读完这个情景后，他们被要求评估，当别人拿走自己的想法时，自己有多大的失落感。

And after reading the scenario, they were asked to rate how much loss they felt in response to somebody else taking their ideas, essentially.

他们需要对一些说法打分，比如：‘我的同事根本没有承认我的贡献，这会损害我未来的前途。’

So they were asked to rate how much they agreed with statements like, my colleague didn't acknowledge my contributions, so my future success will be compromised.

那他们发现了什么？

And what did they find?

为了看看有没有办法缓解这种失落感，他们把参与者分成了四种不同的情况。

So in order to see whether there was anything that could be done to mitigate this feeling of loss, they put these participants participants into into four four different different conditions.

四种情况。

Conditions.

第一种是没人替他们发声，也就是没有为他们的贡献发声。

The first was where nobody spoke up for them, this is like amplifying their contributions.

第二种是领导替他们发声。

The second was that the leader would speak up for them.

第三种是同事替他们发声，第四种是他们自己主动说明自己的贡献。

The third was that a colleague would speak up for them, and the third was they had to amplify their own voice and and sort of talk about their own contribution.

研究人员原本预测，这种失落感会引发情绪反应，让人感到愤怒。

So the researchers predicted that the feelings of loss would lead to this emotional response, it would lead to this feeling of anger.

但他们发现，这种情绪反应的程度取决于哪种形式的发声方式。

What they found was that this was moderated by the type of amplification.

当没有人替这些参与者发声，或者他们必须自己站出来时，仍然会感受到愤怒。

So when nobody spoke on these participants' behalf or when they had to speak up for themselves, there was still this experience of anger.

但当领导或同事替他们发声时，这种失落感与愤怒之间的联系就消失了。

But when the leader spoke up for them or when a colleague spoke up for them, this relationship between loss and anger sort of disappeared.

这是否意味着，我们需要主动为同事发声？比如，当你听到别人的想法被忽视时，要特意站出来肯定他们的贡献，这样就能解决这些问题了？

So does that suggest that does that suggest that what we need to do is to, I don't know, amplify what things our colleagues have done, so to speak up deliberately when you hear someone else's idea being taken, to speak up for your colleagues and say that, and that that will sort all this out.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

关键是要互相支持，及时把功劳归给真正该得的人，但必须是由别人来这么做。

It's supporting each other and kind of giving credit for those ideas where they're due, but it has to be somebody else doing it.

这样做能减轻那种被忽视的失落感，从而避免产生愤怒的情绪。

And what that seems to do is to mitigate the the sense of loss, and therefore, there isn't the result emotion of anger.

这种做法只在个别情况下有效吗？

And would that only work on a kind of one off occasion?

如果有人老是拿走你的点子，即使后来别人给你点赞，怨气不还是会越积越多吗？

If somebody repeatedly nicks your ideas, isn't resentment just gonna build even if other people then give you the credit later?

我觉得确实会这样。

Well, I think it absolutely will.

没错。

Yeah.

如果有人一直窃取你的想法和知识，从不给你任何认可，那种愤怒就会不断累积，最终变成怨恨，甚至让你以后都不愿意再分享想法了。

If somebody's continually stealing your ideas and knowledge and not giving you any credit, again, it's that anger that builds up that's going to lead to resentment, and possibly, you know, a lack of willingness to share ideas in the future.

那你可能会把所有想法都藏起来，这倒是真的。

Oh, you might keep it all secret, that's true.

是不是有些人更容易被剽窃想法？

And are some people more likely to have ideas stole than others?

说到这个，我看这篇论文时想起了《纽约客》上一幅著名的漫画：会议室里坐了一群男人，只有一个女人，老板说：‘这个建议真棒，特里格女士。’

I mean, reading this paper reminded me of the there's a famous New Yorker cartoon where there's a meeting, there's loads of men and one woman, and the boss says, that's an excellent suggestion, Ms.

特里格。

Trigg.

也许其中一位男士愿意来谈谈。

Perhaps one of the men would like to meet.

这确实是个严重的问题，过去的一些研究显示，女性在自己参与的研究论文中被署名的概率比男性低13%。

Well, it it's it it it is a real issue, and there has been some research in the past that's shown that women are 13% less likely to be named on research papers that they've contributed to than men.

另一项研究发现，43%的女性表示自己曾被排除在她们参与的论文之外，而男性只有38%。

And another study's found that 43% of women said that they'd been excluded from a paper they'd worked on, compared to only 38% of men.

这种事人人都可能遇到，但显然女性遭遇的频率要高得多。

So it still happens to us all, but it seems to happen to women a lot more.

当然，这里说的是学术圈的情况。

This is in academia, of course.

是的，这些数字确实挺高的，38%和43%都不算小数。

Yeah, that's interesting, because those seem quite high numbers overall, the 38% and the 43%.

有这么多人的劳动成果被忽视了。

That's a lot of people's work getting ignored.

这背后可是大量的知识被埋没了。

A lot of knowledge there.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

谢谢你的分享，皮特。

Well thanks for that Pete.

您正在收听《全心全意》，我是克劳迪娅·哈蒙德。

You're listening to All in the Mind, I'm Claudia Hammond.

接下来，为了缓解职场中这些负面行为，我们要讲的是那些能让你成为最好自己的人。

Now as an antidote to all that negative behaviour in workplaces, our next item is about people who make you feel like the best version of you.

玛多卡·熊代博士是伦敦金史密斯大学的心理学讲师，她一直在研究一种叫做‘米开朗基罗现象’的现象。

Dr Madoka Kumashiro is a reader in psychology at Goldsmiths, University of London, and she has been researching something called the Michaelangelo phenomenon.

没错，这个名字确实来源于那位著名的意大利画家和雕塑家。

And yes, it is named after the renowned Italian painter and sculptor.

所以我先问她，从心理学角度来说，米开朗基罗现象指的是什么。

So I started by asking her what the Michelangelo phenomenon is in psychological terms.

这是一种社会心理学现象，其灵感来自伟大的雕塑家米开朗基罗，他曾经说过，自己并没有创造那些美丽的雕塑。

So it's a socio psychological phenomenon based on the metaphor of the great sculptor, Michaelangelo who was known to have said he didn't create these beautiful sculptures.

他只是慢慢凿去外层的石料，让里面潜藏的美自然显露出来。

Instead, he chips away at the outer layers to help unearth the inner beauty lying hidden within.

就像石头一样，我们人内心也藏着这种美，那就是我们所说的理想自我——那个我们渴望成为的人。

And just like the stone, we humans still have this inner beauty lying within us, what we call the ideal self, the person we aspire to become.

而就像石头需要雕琢，我们也常常需要他人帮助我们敲掉外层的束缚，让内在的美和理想自我浮现出来，成为最好的自己。

And just like the stone, we often need other people to help chip away at these outer layers, to help unearth the inner beauty and ideal self and to become the best self that we can become.

那么从心理学的角度来看，这意味着我们的性格真的会因为伴侣、朋友或家人而改变吗？

So as a psychological phenomenon, does that mean that, I don't know, our personalities are actually changed by the partners we're with, the friends we see, our relatives?

这个理论其实建立在一个长期存在的观念之上，那就是自我是社会建构的。

So this is actually the theory is actually based on a long standing notion of the socially constructed self.

比如说，你希望自己是个幽默的人。

So let's say you want to be a funny person.

你特别希望别人觉得你风趣。

You really want to be seen as funny.

你有个朋友总说你特别有才。

You know, you have a friend who thinks you're just brilliant.

每次你和这位朋友在一起，他都会对你的笑话大笑，鼓励你多讲，久而久之，通过和他互动，你可能会真的变得更幽默了——知道该讲什么笑话，讲笑话时也更有自信，别人见了你也会说：‘哇，你太有幽默感了。’

Every time you meet with this friend, just laugh at your joke, they encourage you to tell more and over time as a result of interacting with this friend, you might actually become a funnier person knowing which jokes to tell, feeling more confident in telling jokes and you know people might when they meet you say 'wow you're so funny'.

所以别人会觉得你更幽默了，因为你常和那些觉得你幽默的人待在一起，他们把你这方面的潜力激发出来了，给了你鼓励。

So other people will think you're funnier because you've been spending time with the person who thinks you're funny because they kind of bring that out in you, they encourage you

这是一个长期的过程。

in a And so this actually a long term process.

我们不认为随便在路上遇到一个人就能立刻产生这种效果，但随着时间推移，他们确实能把你身上这种特质慢慢唤醒，让它变得更真实、更稳固，让你真的变得越来越幽默。

We don't think it will happen with somebody you just met on the street, you know, but over time, they can bring out this aspect of you which then become more rooted in reality where you become more fun like funnier as a result.

所以我们想问问卡迪夫的朋友们，在你生命中，是谁最能激发你最好的一面？

So we thought we would ask the people of Cardiff who in their life brings out the best in them?

我觉得应该是我上司，他们总是推动我追求更好，让我在做事时更愿意动脑筋、更有创意。

Oh, I'd probably say people I work for because, like, they just want push me to want to be better, and they make me wanna be more creative in the things I do.

我父亲和我妻子都会，只不过方式不一样。

It'll be my dad as well as my wife, both in two different ways.

我父亲用他的毅力，还有他教我们面对逆境时要勇敢，深深影响了我。

My dad with his determination, determination, how he taught us to be brave when things were not going right.

我妻子则教会我如何规划并坚定不移地执行计划。

And my wife in terms of how to plan and stick to your plan with dedication no matter what.

那肯定是我的母亲。

That would be my mother.

她对我的影响方方面面，尤其是让我变得特别勤奋。

I believe she has influenced me in so many ways, my personality, especially when it comes to being hardworking.

那一定是我的丈夫。

It would have to be my husband.

和我丈夫的关系，让我比任何人都更深刻地反思了自己是谁，以及我对他人产生的影响。

My relationship with my husband has made me reassess who I am and my impact on other people more than anyone else.

我觉得，多和自信的人在一起，你的自信也会慢慢被带动起来。

I think surround yourself with people who are confident, and then that confidence rubs off for you in turn.

说实话，我觉得是埃米莉亚，我最好的朋友。

Honestly, I think that's, Emilia, which is my best friend.

从我认识她的那天起，我的生活就变得更好、更有趣了。

Like, since the day I met her, like, my life became better and funnier.

所以

So

这些故事真暖心，讲的是谁能让别人展现出最好的一面。

some lovely stories there of of who brings out the best in people.

但从心理学研究的角度，你怎么去捕捉伴侣和朋友对性格的影响呢？

But in terms psychological research, how do you capture how partners and friends are influencing personality?

这种东西看起来这么难衡量，你该怎么收集数据？

How do you gather this on something that seems so hard to measure?

那就只能靠自我报告了。

So it will have to be self report.

我们直接问人：这个人有没有让你展现出最好的一面？

We just ask people directly, you know, is this person bringing out the best in you?

他们有没有看到你最好的一面？

Are they seeing the best in you?

他们的行为是不是符合你理想中的自己？

Are they behaving in a manner that's consistent with your ideal self?

所以这是自我报告的形式。

So it's self report.

我注意到在你们的研究中，你们还录下了伴侣们聊天的视频。

And I noticed in your research you've also videoed partners chatting together.

你们在这些视频里想观察什么？

What are you looking for there?

我们会请伴侣，比如情侣，讨论他们认为最重要的、与理想自我相关的那个目标。

We actually ask partners like romantic couples, we ask them to discuss one of the most important ideal self relevant goals that they are perceiving.

比如找到一份好工作、获得更好的教育、成为更好的伴侣、更友善一点，这些都可能是实际的目标，甚至包括改变自己的性格。我们让他们自由地讨论，然后让他们再回看自己的视频，接着问他们：‘在这两分钟里，你当时在想什么、有什么感受？’

So it could be like getting a nice career and getting a nice job, getting education, being a better partner, being a kinder, so it could be actual goals, it could be even like changing one's personality and we just ask them to discuss however they want and then we make the couples actually watch the video of themselves again and we ask them, okay, in this two minute segment what were you thinking and feeling?

被访者会说，比如，我的伴侣对我很温暖，我感觉被理解了，觉得他/她看到了我理想中的样子。

The target say, you know, my partner behaved warmly towards me, I felt understood, I felt like they're bringing my ideal self.

然后我们有一组训练有素的编码员，他们会观看这些视频，并使用一套详细的编码表进行分析。

Then we have these nice coders who watch the videos and we give them a nice coding sheet.

哦，他们根据视频里实际看到的内容来做编码。

Oh and they code what they've actually seen in videos.

是的

Yeah.

你们发现了什么？

What did you find?

我们发现，当人们感到被肯定时，他们会觉得自己和伴侣更亲近，也更有可能去追求这些目标，动力也更强。

We find that people who report if the targets felt that they felt affirmed, they feel that they're becoming closer, that they feel it's more likely, they feel more motivated to pursue the goals.

听起来科学告诉我们，我们都应该多花点时间跟那些让我们感觉良好、帮助我们成为更好自己的人在一起。

It sounds as though the science says that we should all spend more time with the people, I don't know, who make us feel good about ourselves, who help us to be our best self.

你会不会把这项研究用在自己的生活中？

Do you find you use the research in your own life?

我会尽量这么做。

I try to.

那很好。

Oh that's good.

是的，我觉得这非常重要。研究感恩也表明，你应当告诉亲近的人你对他们的感激，比如感谢他们的帮助，或者珍惜他们出现在你的生命里，这其实能增强你们的关系，也会让他们更愿意支持你实现重要的目标。

Yeah I think it's very important and it's also about researching gratitude shows that you also tell your loved ones that you're grateful, like you know, appreciative of their help or that you know you have them in your life and that can actually strengthen the relationship and they might also become more motivated to help support you in your important goal pursuits.

这真是个不错的建议，可惜我们平时不太常这么做。

Oh that's a nice tip there and might be something that we don't get around to doing that often.

是啊，人们可能会说别说了，但其实心里谁都希望有人告诉自己，你对他们的生活产生了积极影响。

Yeah, people might be like oh stop but know, inside I think everybody would appreciate being told that you're making a difference in their lives.

没错，我们不太擅长接受夸奖，不过这是伦敦金史密斯学院的熊代真香说的。

Yes, we're not always good at taking compliments but we like it Madoka Kumashiro from Goldsmiths, University of London.

彼得·奥卢索加仍然和我在一起。

Pete Olusoga is still with me.

我特别喜欢一点，就是我们刚才听到的那些人，立刻就能说出谁最能激发他们最好的一面。

I like that the people we heard from there immediately knew who it was who brings out the best in them.

你怎么看这个现象？

What did you make of it?

博士，我觉得这真的特别温暖。

Dr I just think it's really lovely.

这里面好像有种真实感，你说是不是？

There's something in there about authenticity almost, isn't it?

关于那些能让你做真实自己的人。

About having people that just allow you to be your authentic self.

对，做真实的自己，就是最本真的你，最好的你。

Yeah, and to be the real you, yeah, the real you and the best you.

你最近有个新研究，是关于所谓的‘思维空白’。

Now you've got a new study for us on what is known as mind blanking.

这和走神或白日梦不一样吧？走神是想着别的事，而不是该想的事。

So is this different from mind wandering or daydreaming where you think about something else other than the thing you should be thinking about?

是的。

Yeah.

这对我来说特别有意思，就像我一开始说的，我的脑子从来停不下来。

So this is this is really interesting for me, because like I said at the start of the program, my mind never shuts off.

但思维空白是指你完全察觉不到任何内心活动的状态。

But mind blanking is the state where we don't report any kind of mental content whatsoever.

就是那种脑子里空空如也的感觉。

So it's the feeling of essentially having a completely empty mind.

所以，就这么一会儿，什么念头都没有？

So just for a moment, nothing happens at all?

你是在想一些什么都没有的状态？

You're kind of thinking about nothing?

就是在想什么都没有。

Thinking about nothing.

然后

And then

你可能会意识到自己刚才处于那种状态。

you might realize you were doing that.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得我能理解这种感觉。

I I think I can relate to that.

但我猜要研究这个很难，你怎么知道别人脑子里是空白的呢？

But I can imagine this is hard to study, because how can you know when someone else's mind is blank?

这项研究记录了人们在不同任务中的脑部活动。

Well, this piece of research recorded people's brain activity during different tasks.

他们让参与者对人脸或数字做出反应，要么在特定符号或数字出现时按按钮，要么不按按钮。

So they had people responding to faces or numbers by either pressing a button when a certain symbol or or number came up or by not pressing a button.

这些都属于‘go/no-go’任务。

These are go, no go tasks.

他们大约每分钟就问一次参与者当时的思维状态，问他们是在专注任务、走神发呆、大脑一片空白，还是根本记不清了。

And they asked these people about their mental state around about every minute or so, and they asked them whether they were focusing on the task, focusing off tasks, so the typical mind wandering daydreaming, whether they were having a mental blank, so this mind blanking, or they just couldn't remember.

那与此同时，他们是怎么测量大脑内部活动的呢？

And meanwhile, are they how are they measuring what's going on in

他们在参与者头上戴了电极来监测脑电活动。

their wired electrodes up to these people's brains.

这是脑电图测量。

This is an EEG measurement.

明白。

Yeah.

他们头上戴着像发网一样的装置，真厉害，对吧？

So they're wearing a sort of hair net in a way, it's amazing, isn't it?

因为它能探测到你颅骨内部的一些活动。

Because it can measure some activity that's going on underneath your skull.

研究人员能从这些数据中看出什么来？

And what can the researchers then tell from those measurements?

他们能判断大脑某个区域的活动情况，但只限于表层。

Well they can tell what brain activity is going on in a certain area of the brain, but only at a sort of surface level.

那么在这项研究中，他们观察到了哪些大脑活动模式？

And so in this study, what patterns of brain activity did they did they see?

在人们出现大脑空白的时候，他们发现了什么？

What what did they see for these mind blanking moments?

他们首先发现的是，所有人都把任务完成得非常好。

Well, the first thing that they found was that everybody was really good at the task.

当问及他们的专注状态时，大约52%的时间里，人们表示自己完全专注于手头的任务。

And when they asked people about their mental state, around 52% of the time, people reported being on task, so fully concentrated on what they were doing.