本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
布莱恩·约翰逊，感谢你的到来。
Bryan Johnson, thanks for being here.
是的。
Yeah.
很高兴见到你。
It's good to see you.
你感觉怎么样？
How are you feeling?
也许你可以跟我们分享一下几天前你做了什么，
Maybe just share with us what you did a few days ago and
对。
Yeah.
我进行了五次MEO DMT，这是地球上最强大的致幻剂。
I did a I did five MEO DMT, which is the most powerful psychedelic on the planet.
它的强度是DMT的五到十倍。
Somewhere between five and ten times more powerful than DMT.
所以，是的，已经过去48小时了。
And so, yeah, I it's so it's been forty eight hours.
我还在学习如何谈论这次经历。
I'm still learning how to talk about it.
你知道大多数顶级科技CEO和风险投资家的共同点是什么吗？
You know what many of the biggest tech CEOs and VCs have in common?
他们都睡在Eight Sleep的睡眠舱里。
They sleep on the pod by Eight Sleep.
这已经成为科技圈最受欢迎的睡眠方式，而且有充分的理由。
It's become tech's favorite way to sleep and for good reason.
一种可以覆盖在任何床垫上的罩子，将温度降至55度，并通过AI整夜自动调节你的体温。
A cover that goes on any mattress, cools it down to 55 degrees, and uses AI to adjust your temperature all night.
深度睡眠时间最多增加34%。
Up to 34% more deep sleep.
无需穿戴任何设备。
No wearable needed.
前往 eight sleep dot com slash all in，使用代码 ALLIN，今天购买你的 pod 可享受最高 350 美元的折扣。
Go to eight sleep dot com slash all in and use code ALLIN for up to $350 off your pod purchase today.
在深入了解你的经历之前，你为什么选择这么做？
Before we get into your experience, why did you choose to do it?
有两个原因。
Two things.
第一，主要是作为一项长寿实验。
One, mostly as a longevity experiment.
所以，当我五年前启动这个项目时，我们的方法是全面梳理所有已发表的关于健康与长寿的科学证据，找出那些证据最充分的干预措施。
So when when we when I started this project five years ago, the the approach we had was go through all the scientific evidence ever published on health and longevity, try to find the interventions that have the best evidence.
然后根据效果大小，从表现最好的开始逐一排查。
And for effect size and we just went down the list from top performing on down.
当然，你首先会考虑运动、营养、睡眠，然后逐步往下探索像高压氧疗法、桑拿，再到雷帕霉素和二甲双胍这些方法。
So, of course, you start with exercise, nutrition, you know, sleep, and you work your way down to things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy and sauna and then rapamycin metformin.
因此，我们从未真正把致幻剂列入过我们的考虑范围。
And so we never actually had on our radar psychedelics.
它们一直被视为传统医学，用于仪式性实践，或在某些试验中针对抑郁和焦虑，但从未被理解为一种抗衰老或延缓衰老的疗法。
They were always either an ancient medicine, you know, being used in in ritualistic practices or being pointed at things like depression and anxiety in in certain trials, but it was never understood as a rejuvenation protocol, something that was for antiaging.
因此，我们在小鼠身上发现了裸盖菇素的临床前证据。
And so we found a preclinical evidence in mice on psilocybin.
我们认为这很有趣。
We thought that's interesting.
于是，我们开展了世界上研究最深入、数据最详尽的裸盖菇素实验，使用了三次25毫克的裸盖菇素剂量。
And so we did the world's most studied the most quantified experiment doing psilocybin, three doses at twenty five milligrams of psilocybin.
这些剂量相当高。
Which are pretty high doses.
是的。
It's yeah.
这几乎是临床剂量，接近英雄剂量，我们发现它很可能是一种延寿疗法。
It's a clinical dose at very, very close to a hero dose, and we found that we think it's a a longevity therapy.
我们稍后再来看这些数据。
Let's get to that data in a minute.
但你这个周末决定尝试五甲氧基色胺。
But then you decided to try five MeO this weekend.
是的。
Yes.
跟我详细说说你的体验吧，因为你全程直播了。
Walk me through the experience because you televised the whole thing.
是直播的。
It was livestreamed.
你在进入和经历这个过程时看起来异常平静。
You looked amazingly calm going into it and going through the process.
跟我们讲讲你的体验。
Walk us through your experience.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，那些使用过5MeO的人可能会和我有同样的感受：很难形容那种体验。
I think, those who have done 5MeO would probably relate with me that it feels like an impossible task to explain what it's like.
所以，在说明这一点之后，我会试着描述一下。
So that caveat said, I'll I'll give it a go.
我震惊了，完全被震撼了，无言以对。
I'm stunned, absolutely floored, speechless.
你基本上体验到了纯粹的意识和纯粹的智慧。
You you basically experience raw consciousness and raw intelligence.
就是这种感觉。
It's this.
所以，无论我用什么词来形容，都请记住，把这些词所表达的意思放大一千倍，再延伸到无限的深度、无限的广度，乃至更多的维度。
So whatever when I say these words, take these words that I committed you, take that idea, multiply it by a thousand, and then move out infinite depth infinite width or width and depth and then dimensions.
这能让你大致理解你所进入的空间的规模和范围，而这个过程极其艰难，因为你被抛入了一个完全陌生的领域。
And like that gives you kind of like a rough map of like the size and space that you deal with, and it was incredibly hard because you you get blasted into this space that is so foreign.
你甚至不知道发生了什么。
You don't even know what's happening.
这一切发生得非常快。
It happens very quickly.
就像，你吸进去了。
Like, you've you inhale it.
我注射了九毫克，然后又吸了七十八毫克，十秒内就起效了。
I did nine milligrams of intramuscular and then seven eighteen of it of vaporized, and it hit you within ten seconds.
你直接就没了。
You're just out you're out.
但当你进入那个空间后，视觉会以极微小的幅度不断变化。
And so but what happens is you you get in that space and then The visual changes every Very very little visual.
就像在DMT上，那是一种非常视觉化的体验。
Like, you see it on DMT, it's a very visual.
你会遇到那些精灵之类的存在。
You'll meet the, you know, like the elves or whatever else.
这并不是一种视觉体验。
This is not a visual experience.
但你会进入这个世界，并且陷入其中——要么你恐慌，感觉地狱之门即将开启，存在的洪流会把你撕得粉碎。
But you you get in this world and you lock in to basically you either panic because you feel like the gates of hell are gonna open, that the the cut this the stream of existence is gonna just tear you to shreds.
它会把你撕碎。
It's gonna shard you.
如果你放弃，你的大脑就会崩溃。
And if you give up Like, break your brain.
是的。
Yeah.
你是不是觉得它会威胁到你的理智？
Like, is it you feel like it's gonna, like, threaten your sanity.
它会把你切成小碎片吗？
Like, is it gonna chop you up into little pieces?
所以在那一刻，你必须决定：是试图与它抗争，还是干脆等它过去，或者你就顺从了。
And so in that moment, you have to say, do I try to wrestle this and I I need to just, like, wait it out until it's over, or you just relent.
你说好。
You say yes.
在那一刻，你必须彻底地答应。
And you have to in that moment, you have to say yes so thoroughly.
你必须放下所有的执着、所有的前提条件、所有的渴望和欲望。
You have to release all attachment, all preconditions, all want, all desire.
你必须放下自我、自我意识和控制欲。
You have to release self, ego, control.
你必须彻底地顺从。
You just have to just relent entirely.
而当你这样做的时候，就会开启一种难以想象的幸福与狂喜。
And then when you do that, it opened up this unimaginable bliss and euphoria.
我想试着解释这一点，但如果我要列出我作为人类所经历过的最强烈的体验，比如某些成就、结婚、生子、克服困难，或者你列出你认为重要的事情，
And I I think in this like a v one of trying to explain this, but if I list out the the most dynamic experiences I've had of a human, you know, like certain accomplishments accomplishments or or getting getting married married or having a child or overcoming a difficulty or, like, know, state your list of things.
毫无疑问，这是我作为人类经历过的最强烈的体验。
This is without question the most dynamic experience I've ever experienced as a human.
内心的喋喋不休、自我的内心独白会停止吗？
Does the internal chatter, the internal monologue of the ego turn off?
会停止。
Does.
所以你听不到自己说话？
So you can't hear yourself speaking?
你怎么
How do
如果你没有内在对话，该如何理解正在发生的事？
you rationalize what's going on if you don't have a dialogue going on?
这是一种直觉性的感受。
It's this visceral feeling.
你会极度清醒地意识到正在发生的一切。
Like, you're you're hyper aware of what's happening.
并不是说你一开始就会完全屏蔽外界，比如当你服用很高剂量时，前几分钟你其实不太清楚发生了什么，但随后你会慢慢清醒过来，对一切变得极度敏感。
It's not like you you you block out in the first, like when you take a very high dose, you don't really know what's happening the first few minutes, but then you kinda come to and you're hyper aware of everything.
这不是视觉上的体验，而是你仿佛深入了存在的核心。
It's not visual, but it's this you're in the depths of existence like this.
这是智慧生命所能达到的最宏伟的体验。
It's just the most majestic experience achievable by by intelligent life.
我简直无法想象还有比这更神奇的事情。
I just can't imagine anything more miraculous.
你研究过生物学和生物化学。
You've studied the biology, the biochemistry.
当这个分子作用于你的神经元时，大脑里会发生什么？
What goes on in the brain as this
分子撞击你的神经元时，会发生什么？
molecule hits your neurons?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，首先，它完全瓦解了你的默认模式网络。
So, I mean, like, it I mean, one, it completely dissolves your default mode network.
解释一下那是什么。
Describe what that is.
它就像是一个构建自我和自我的引擎。
So, like, it's this is the engine that constructs self and ego.
当你反复思虑时，你会不断经历
And so as you ruminate, you know, like, you're going through
在回顾你的一天。
Thinking through your day.
接下来呢？
What's next?
我现在的感受如何？
How am I feeling?
是的。
Yeah.
我现在该做什么？
What should I be doing right now?
持续不断的内心对话。
Constant conversation.
我是不是对自己感觉不好？
Do I feel bad about myself?
我有没有那种，你知道的，害羞的感觉？
Do I feel, you know, like I am I shy?
我是不是对什么都感到愧疚？
Am I like, do I feel bad about whatever?
你就是在做这种反刍思考的事情。
Like, you're doing this rumination stuff.
孩子们没有这种反刍循环。
Kids don't have this rumination loop.
他们的默认模式网络是安静的。
Their their default mode network is is quiet.
随着年龄增长，你的默认模式网络会逐渐形成更僵化的模式。
And as you age, you basically build up this default mode network into more stiffer patterns.
因此，随着年龄增长，你对现实的体验会变得越来越狭窄。
And so as you age, your experience of reality becomes increasingly narrow.
你会形成这些深深的思维惯性。
You have these big ruts that form.
所以你可以看到人们的行为模式，比如孩子多么开放，愿意说各种随机的话，而成年人却非常封闭。
And so you can just see people and their patterns, like how open a child is to say, like, very random things, and as adults, you're just very you're shut in.
比如，我做过裸盖菇素，我们做这个的原因之一是因为它确实有抑制默认模式网络的效果。
Like, I did psilocybin, one of the reasons why we did it is because it does have this effect where it dampens the default mode network.
我们可以用Kernel脑机接口来捕捉这一点。
Know, we could pick this up with Kernel, the brain interface.
你可以看到默认模式网络是如何减弱的。
You can see how the default mode network weakens.
简单来说，可以把大脑想象成一个布满机场的地球。
Like so basically, think of the brain like a globe with airports scattered about.
对。
Right.
你有一些固定的航线，比如纽约到伦敦。
And you have certain traffic patterns like New York to London.
每天有一定数量的航班。
You have a certain number of flights every day.
这就像一个非常强的连接。
That's like a very strong connection.
但纽约到阿肯色州某个小镇的航班量却非常少。
But New York to, you know, some small town in in Arkansas has a very, low traffic map.
当你使用迷幻蘑菇时，它基本上会把所有机场拿起来，重新分布在世界上，使得整个交通模式都打乱了。
And so when you do something like psilocybin, it basically takes the airports, picks them up, and then repositions it in the world so it's just all scrambled so that the traffic patterns aren't the same.
随着时间推移，神经元本身并不会物理移动，但活动模式会发生变化。
And then over time neurons don't physically move, but the activity shifts around.
没错。
Exactly.
对吧？
Right?
神经元的活动比平时更随机，这 arguably 推动了神经可塑性，促使这些神经元去建立新的连接。
The neurons are a little bit more random than they normally would be, which arguably drives neuroplasticity, causes those neurons to reach out for new connections.
当新的连接形成时，新的行为和新的思维方式就会出现。
And when new connections are made, new behaviors, new ways of thinking emerge
完全正确。
Exactly right.
从这些疗法中走出来。
Coming out of these therapeutics.
这是
Is that
一种合理的描述方式吗？
a fair way to describe it?
完全正确。
Exactly right.
所以当你查看我在使用裸盖菇素后来自Kernel的大脑图像时，你会看到我之前的大脑模式，比如纽约到伦敦的连接。
So when you look at my brain on psilocybin from Kernel, you see my patterns before, like the New York to London connection.
你再看我使用后的大脑，正像你所说的那样。
You see my brain afterwards, and it's exactly what you said.
新的模式出现了。
New patterns are emergent.
旧有的模式已经安静下来了。
The old ones have have have quieted down.
就像一张新的连接地图。
It's like a new map of connectivity.
因此我们观察到了这一现象，这确实产生了大量的神经可塑性。
And so we saw that happen, and that does generate a lot of neuroplasticity.
显然，这种神经可塑性重塑了大脑中的这些连接，使得创伤受害者或那些大脑中反复出现某种固定模式、从而导致创伤和焦虑的人，能够重新连接，进而让创伤和焦虑感觉像是消融或蒸发了一样。
And, obviously, this neuroplasticity rewiring these connections in the brain is what allows trauma victims or folks that have a certain wiring that they keep repeating in their brain, which causes the trauma and the anxiety in their lives to get rewired, and then that trauma and that anxiety feels like it dissolves or melts away.
这样说对吗？
Is that fair?
完全正确。
Exactly right.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这一点在裸盖菇素中已有记录。
And so this is this has been documented in psilocybin.
这在一定程度上已经被理解了。
It's kind of well understood.
你是如何将裸盖菇素的数据与抗衰老研究联系起来的？还是这只是个偶然的想法？
How did you connect that psilocybin data to an effort in longevity, or was this just like a random idea?
我们来试试看。
Let's try it out.
是的。
Yeah.
我们观察到一些小鼠数据，显示它具有这些效果。
Well, so we we we saw some mouse data that it had these effects.
它还显示出炎症减少。
It also showed reduced inflammation.
所以我们觉得这很有趣，因为大多数抗衰老疗法都与炎症有关。
So we said, like, this is interesting because most longevity therapies do something with inflammation.
对吧？
Right?
炎症才是真正的杀手。
Like, inflammation is the killer.
如果你能降低炎症，那就是一个非常好的迹象。
If So you can lower inflammation, a very good sign.
如果你能做点什么让大脑更年轻，消除那些深重的思维惯性，那也很有帮助。
If you can do something that makes the brain more youthful and takes down those those big ruts, that's use also useful.
不过我们在裸盖菇素中发现的是，我们得到了一项人类首次观察结果。
What we found in psilocybin though is that it had we found a first in human observation.
它在大脑中引发了这种代谢重置，我之前的血糖水平在全人口中处于前99.5百分位。
It had this this metabolic reset in the brain where my blood glucose before this was in the top 99.5 percentile of all the population.
明白了。
Okay.
之后，它上升到了前99.9百分位。
After, it went to the top 99.9 percentile.
想把我的血糖从那个水平降下来非常非常难，但这不是像二甲双胍那样直接作用于血糖。
Like, to move my blood glucose from that level is very, very hard, but it basically, like, not like metformin where you're doing something on blood glucose.
它在整个身体上引发了某种重置，还改变了我的肠道菌群。
This just had a reset across the body, also changed my microbiome.
所以我们看到了全面的效果。
So we saw a full on effect.
于是我们说，好吧。
So then we said, okay.
如果它产生了这样的影响，那么五甲氧基色胺可能也有类似的特性。
If that had that consequence, five MeO may have some similar characteristics.
之前没有人对五甲氧基色胺做过这样的研究。
And so No one had done this in five MeO before.
没错。
Exactly.
所以有一些动物实验证据，但其背后的机制类似——你能否让大脑恢复，把那些积累下来的‘藤壶’清除掉？
So there's like there's there's and so there's some animal evidence, but it's the the the similar dynamics of like, can you take the brain and can you basically, like, smooth out the barnacles that accumulate?
而五甲氧基DMT与裸盖菇素相比，彻底清除了我的默认模式网络。
And five m e o DMT compared to psilocybin, like, just absolutely, like, blasted clean my default mode network.
感觉裸盖菇素只是减弱它，让它变得柔和，但这个东西直接摧毁了我的默认模式网络。
It felt like psilocybin dampens it, you know, like it softens it, but this thing just annihilated my default mode.
完全关闭了。
Turned it off completely.
是的。
Yeah.
它就是不再以同样的方式运行了。
It just it just doesn't run the same way.
举个例子，今天早上我醒来时发现自己在梦里笑了。
And like, for an example, like, this morning I woke up catching myself laughing in a dream.
我从没在梦里笑过。
I have not laughed in a dream.
我甚至不记得上一次在梦里笑是什么时候了，但醒来后我觉得这真的太奇怪了。
I I don't even know when I've ever laughed in a dream, but that is I after I woke up, was like, that's really weird.
我不记得自己笑过。
Like, I don't remember laughing.
我查了一下，这确实是孩子的特征。
I looked it up, and like, that is a characteristic of a child.
对吧。
Right.
所以你恢复到了一种孩子般的心态。
And so you are restored to this childlike state.
我的意思是，过去几天，我确实感觉像个孩子。
And, I mean, the past couple days, I have felt childlike.
你知道的。
You know?
昨天早上，我感受到了那种涌现的兴奋感，那种对今天充满期待的激动。
Yesterday morning, I felt that, you know, that emergent excitement, the bubbling of, today is so exciting.
是的。
Yeah.
我要做些新事情。
I'm gonna do new things.
我要有新的体验，是的。
I'm gonna have new experiences Yeah.
你对所有事情都充满兴奋。
That you're just excited about all things.
我从未有过这种感觉。
I haven't felt that.
我都记不清是从什么时候开始，这么多年了。
I don't even know when, you know, for so many years.
所以，它在每一个层面都极其深刻，我能感受到。
So, like, it really was profound on every layer, and I see it.
我也在摸索，因为我还不知道该怎么谈论它。
I'm stumbling too because I didn't even know how talk about it yet.
白天的时候，你到处闲逛，走来走去。
During the day, you're hanging out, You're walking around.
你的大脑现在和以前一样，还在进行同样的日常思绪吗？还是说默认模式网络已经发生了持续性的变化？
Is your brain having the same normal chatter that it did before, or do you think that there's a persistent change in that default mode network?
是的。
Yeah.
确实发生了变化。
Definitely a change.
比如，昨天我和我的伴侣凯特在一起时，我做了一件让她不开心的事。
Like, with I was with my partner, Kate, yesterday, and we I did something that made her upset.
在这种情况下，你知道，当情侣处于这种时刻时，你们会进行一种协商。
And so, like, in that situation, you know, like, when when couples are in that moment, you you have, like, this negotiation.
我该怎么处理这件事？
How do I sort this?
而这一切对我来说突然变得无比清晰：孩子吵架，吵完就完了。
And it all just became so clear to me, like, children have a fight, you have it out and it's just, like, done.
是的。
Yeah.
然后你就继续往前走了。
And you move on.
但成年人却把这事儿打包起来，还想拿它当武器，说：‘我手里有你的把柄。’
But then adults take that and they, like, package it up and, like, they wanna weaponize it and be like, I got something on you.
对吧？
Right?
我就说：别纠结了。
I'm like, move it.
我要把棋子挪一挪，试图利用这件事，或者像把蛇藏在那种一按就弹出来的玩具里一样，把怨气攒着。
I'm gonna move the chess pieces and, like, try to leverage this and and Or they stored up like a snake in one of those things that pops out all the snake litter.
你懂的？
You know?
就像，是的。
It's like Yeah.
把一切都打包起来。
Package it all up.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我们当时就是这样，我完全不需要升级冲突或为自己辩护，一切都变得很简单。
And so, like, we had this, and I I just felt absolutely, like, no need to escalate or to defend or to, like it was just easy.
很简单。
Easy.
这成了我们关系中的一个突破，让我能够以一种新的方式和她沟通。
And it was a breakthrough in our relationship where I was able to communicate with her in a way.
这就像是在睡梦中笑出声。
And so it's like laughing in my sleep.
这就是我应对伴侣的方式。
It's how I deal with my partner.
当我四处走动时，我感觉轻松多了，我变得有趣多了。
When I walk around, I just feel so much I I feel so much more funny.
你知道，我开玩笑的能力，嗯。
You know, like, my ability to make quips Uh-huh.
都是即兴的。
That are just immediate.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
你知道，是的，我感觉自己在某种程度上焕然一新，这真是我以前完全没想到的。
You know, like so, yeah, I just feel renewed as a person in a way that I just really didn't imagine.
在你几年前开始长寿之路之前，你试过致幻剂吗？
Have you tried hallucinogenics before you started your longevity path a couple of years ago?
是的。
Yeah.
你当时是
And did you
出于娱乐还是治疗目的使用的？
do that recreationally or therapeutically?
这主要是出于治疗目的，是的。
It was mostly therapeutic in that Yep.
我卖掉了我的公司，Branch of MO。
I I had sold my company, Branch of MO.
我离了婚。
I got a divorce.
我离开了摩门教，当时正在重新思考：人生的意义是什么？
I left the Mormon church, and I was trying to remap, like, what is life?
我是谁？
Who am I?
我该做什么？
What do I do?
所以我正处于重建阶段，当时随意尝试了一些东西，比如我在Kernel接受了氯胺酮治疗。
So I was in that rebuilding stage where I just dabbled of, you know, I did I did ketamine at Kernel.
我们在Kernel的早期研究之一是，我们认为氯胺酮是一种有前景的抑郁症疗法，于是提出了一个问题：当你使用氯胺酮时，会发生什么？
So one one of our first studies at Kernel is we said ketamine was a up and coming therapy for depression, and we posed the question, what happens when you do ketamine?
因此，我们在Kernel进行了世界上迄今为止最全面的氯胺酮测量，涵盖使用前、使用中和使用后。
And so we did the world's most extensive measurement of ketamine with Kernel before, during, and after.
这很有趣。
And so that was interesting.
它确实有一些暂时性的影响，但与五甲氧基色胺相比，这简直就像是小联盟水平。
Like, it had some kind of, you know, transient effect, but that's like a a a, like, a little league relative to five m e o.
在你经历这一切的过程中，能否分享一下你收集的MRI数据以及其他神经效应的映射数据？
And so as you've gone through this, maybe share a little bit of the MRI data that you're gathering and the other data mapping neurological effects.
是的。
Yeah.
告诉我们一些
And tell us a little
关于你所学到的内容。
bit about what you've learned.
到目前为止，一无所获。
So far, nothing.
我可以分享我的主观体验，但我们也有结构脑部MRI数据。
I have my subjective experience to share, but we we have a structural brain MRI.
我们有功能脑部MRI数据。
We have a functional brain MRI.
我们使用了Kernel，这是一种光学接口，我还进行了实时脑电图采集。
We did Kernel, which is like an optical interface, and then I did real time EEG capture.
我觉得我们应该谈谈结构方面的内容，这很重要。
And we should just talk about I think it's important structural.
你可以看到大脑的物理结构。
You can see the the physical brain.
功能方面，你可以看到大脑的活动
Functional, you can see the activity
是的。
Yes.
在大脑中。
In the brain.
所以是神经元在放电，以及神经元没有放电的情况。
So neurons firing and neurons that are not firing.
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
然后是通过电子设备测量的电活动。
And then electrical actions that are measured by a electrical device.
对。
Yeah.
所以我们基本上想要做的是，因为大脑非常复杂，我们在修复心脏、肺部、肌肉和体脂方面已经取得了很大成功，但让大脑恢复年轻却非常困难。
So what we basically, like, wanted because the brain is very so we've had a lot of success rejuvenating my heart and my lungs and muscle and body fat, but rejuvenating the brain is very hard.
对。
Right.
因此，这就是为什么这种疗法如此有前景。
And so we this is why this is so such a promising therapy.
所以我们希望通过所有可能的手段来研究大脑。
So we wanted to look at the brain, through every modality possible.
我们想观察血流、结构、分子层面，还有脑电波模式。
We wanted to look at blood flow, structural, molecular, you know, the wave pattern form.
所以我们进行了高保真度的量化分析，接下来就看数据会呈现什么结果。
So we it's a it's a very high fidelity quantification, and so we'll see what the data comes out.
我非常兴奋。
I'm very excited.
是的。
Yeah.
你也在裸盖菇素上做了这个实验。
You did this on psilocybin as well.
对吧？
Right?
你追踪了大脑随时间的变化。
You mapped the brain over time.
你发现了什么？
What did
你在那里学到了什么？
you learn there?
大脑的年轻化模式得到了显著恢复。
Dramatic restoration of youthful brain patterns.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
五甲氧基色胺之后会发生什么？
And what comes after five m e o?
你知道吗，我的意思是，你把这个推进到什么程度？
You know, I mean, how far do you take this?
是的。
Yeah.
说实话，我对迷幻剂感到非常鼓舞。
Honestly, I am so encouraged by psychedelics.
我的意思是，在我常待的圈子里，迷幻剂一直被理解为一种退隐或仪式，人们去那里进行各种探索，但从没和抗衰老联系起来。
I you know, like in in in the community where I hang out, psychedelics have always been understood as, you know, it's like a retreat or it's like a a ritual where you go to, like, do various explorations, but never in the world of longevity.
它从来没人把它当成这么一回事。
It's never been understood as that thing.
但现在看了这些数据之后，我意识到——当然，谈论迷幻剂时你必须非常谨慎，因为它们极其强大。
And now after seeing the data now I and, of course, you have to be very careful when talking about psychedelics because they're extremely powerful.
不是说每个人都该出去尝试。
It's not like, go out and do them everybody.
对吧？
Right?
这需要在持证专业人士的指导下正确进行。
It's like, it needs to be done properly with a licensed professional.
必须谨慎操作。
It needs to be done carefully.
使用者需要处于合适的状态。
The person needs to in the right state.
这绝不能轻率对待，但我对致幻剂化合物的兴趣比以往任何时候都更浓厚。
Like, it is not to be taken lightly, but I am, more interested than ever in psychedelic compounds.
它们确实具有独特而强大的效力。
They're just uniquely powerful.
有人认为致幻剂可能引发永久性精神病，是的。
There's some arguments to be made that psychedelics can induce permanent psychosis Yeah.
因为功能性的改变，可能促使某些易感人群进入精神分裂状态。
Cause functional changes and drive some people that might be predisposed into schizophrenic states.
没错。
That's right.
你是怎么克服这些风险的？
How did you get over those risks?
因为对很多人来说，这些风险会让他们放弃尝试致幻剂，而且确实有一部分人会遭受这些后果。
Because for a lot of people, that would turn them off to trying psychedelics, and it's not a nonzero percentage of people that suffer these consequences.
是的。
Yep.
我同意。
I agree.
还有那些经历极度糟糕旅程、留下心理创伤的人。
And and also people who have really bad trips that leave them star scarred.
所以这确实如此。
So it's it really is.
我认为部分原因在于，有些人比如尝试过魔菇的人。
And I think in in part of it is, what could be contributing to this is people who, for example, who have tried magic mushrooms.
你知道，这是在社交场合下发生的。
You know, it's in a social situation.
有人带了个包。
Someone's got a bag.
你拿出一些蘑菇。
You pull out some mushrooms.
是的。
It's like, yeah.
比如重量是空白的，他们直接吃下去，却根本不知道自己吃的是哪种蘑菇菌株。
Like, weighs blank, and they pop it in, but they have no idea what kind of mushroom strain they're eating.
他们不知道自己摄入的裸盖菇素剂量是多少。
They don't know what the dose of psilocybin is.
所以这是未经量化、无人监督、心态和环境都不对的情况。
So it's like unquantified, unsupervised, wrong set and setting.
其中很大一部分风险依然存在，但我认为我们还没有以应有的严谨态度来对待迷幻剂，以确保其安全性。
And so much of it, I think you can the the risk persists, but I don't think we've we've approached psychedelics with the appropriate rigor that we should to make it safe.
所以这并不是说我们能为所有人解决安全问题。
So it's not to say that we can solve for the safety issue for all people.
有些人可能根本就不是适合使用它的对象，但我认为，如果我们能为它建立一套安全机制，它就能在降低风险的同时，实现人们所期待的益处。
Some people just may not be the appropriate candidate for it, but I think if we do create a safety structure around it, they could deliver the benefits people want without with, you know, with less of the risk.
但毫无疑问，我同意你的观点。
But, definitely, I agree with you.
这再次说明，它确实需要十足的谨慎。
Like, it's again, it it deserves all the caution
完全有必要。
in the world.
你认为它是通过神经发生、神经可塑性或创伤疗愈发挥作用的吗？
Do think it's, like, neurogenic, neuroplasticity, trauma resolution?
我的意思是，究竟要怎样做，才能让这种疗法被认可为一种医疗手段，从而进行更广泛的试验，最终在不承担如今这么多风险和负担的情况下，让大众受益？
I mean, what is the way that this is gonna be allowed to become call it a medical therapeutic that can be more broadly trialed and then eventually figure out how to bring it to people without it being carrying all the risks and burdens that it does today?
如果仅从主观体验来看，我把5MeO的经历和改善饮食、每天锻炼、良好睡眠、使用桑拿以及高压氧疗法相比，它在让我整个人重置方面，效果远超所有这些方法。
I mean, if I just subjectively compare my experience with 5MeO to, you know, having a better diet and exercising every day and sleeping well and doing the sauna and doing hyperbaric oxygen therapy, this was more efficacious than all of them in terms of the reset of me as a human.
这根本是无法相提并论的。
It it just is incomparable.
我想我现在真的在深思。
And I guess I'm I'm really left pondering.
我的意思是，这个分子竟然会产生如此巨大的影响。
I mean, like, for this molecule to have such a gigantic impact.
那么，这种效果能持续多久呢？
Now, like, how long will it last?
它的衰减曲线是怎样的？
What's the decay curve like?
你知道吗，我会不会在三十天、六十天后又变回原来的自己，是否需要再次接受治疗？
You know, will I find I I become the former Brian within thirty days, sixty days, do have to repeat this again?
我不确定。
I don't know.
但当你睡得好，感觉就会很棒。
But it really is, you know, you when you sleep well, feel great.
你锻炼时，感觉也很棒。
You exercise, great.
但就像5MeO那样，它对我作为一个人的重塑是其他任何东西都无法比拟的。
But, like, nothing like what 5MeO did in terms of of, like, the reset of me as a human.
那我们干脆聊聊生理之外的后果，也就是生活本身。
So let's just talk about the consequences outside of the physiological, which is life.
是的。
Yeah.
我有很多朋友和认识的人尝试过像死藤水这样的强效致幻剂。
There lots of stories and friends that I have that and people that I know that have tried a heavy psychedelic like an Ayahuasca or something.
他们原本是公司的CEO，但之后却辞职了，跑去丛林里，离开家人，和伴侣离婚，因为他们的世界观发生了巨大转变，做出了如此剧烈的人生改变。
They were the CEO of a company, and then they quit their company and they go off to the jungle, leave their family, divorce their their partner, make such dramatic life changes because their perspective has been shifted so much Yeah.
他们重新评估了生命中什么是重要的，以至于放弃了过去许多曾经看重的东西。
That they reevaluate what matters in life to such a degree that they give up a lot of the things that mattered before.
是的。
Yeah.
在那之后，有些人觉得自己是这种行为转变的受害者，比如公司的投资者。
In the wake of that, there are people that feel they're a victim of that behavioral shift, the investors in the company That's right.
展开剩余字幕（还有 471 条）
员工、家庭成员等等。
The employees, the family members, etcetera.
是的。
Yeah.
你能稍微谈一下这些广泛的风险吗？
Can you just talk a little bit about those broad risks?
因为我们已经看到过，我不知道你有没有见过同样的情况，但有些朋友会说，我有了新的视角。
Because we've seen it, and I'm and don't know if you've seen the same, but friends that have kind of, like, said, I have this new perspective.
我要放弃我的生活了。
I'm giving up my life.
我见过同样的事情，有一位投资者告诉我，他甚至在投资协议中写明了：如果我们投资，你不能使用这些致幻剂，因为他们希望降低风险敞口。
I've seen the same thing, and I one investor told me that he even put it in the deal docs that, you know, if we invest, you're not gonna do these psychedelics because they wanted to minimize the the risk profile.
这确实是个问题。
It's a thing.
在你的投资交易中呢？
And In your deal in an investment in you?
不。
No.
我只是说了几句，因为我一直在做这件事。
I just spoke because I've been doing this.
人们会把这当作一个话题来讨论。
People bring this up as a topic of conversation.
对。
Right.
所以他们会说，我知道你是为了长寿才这么做，但我也见过很多例子，人们投了钱，结果创始人却出事了。
And so they say like, I see you're doing this for longevity, but, you know, like, I've seen so many examples where people put money in, then you lose the founder.
就像他们退出了。
Like, they're off.
他们消失了。
They're gone.
大家都白忙一场。
Everyone's high and dry.
所以他们告诉我，他们投入了Dildocs，但无法在整个公司存续期间持续这样做。
And so they were telling me that they put into Dildocs that they can't do this for the duration of the company.
所以这确实是个问题，我知道会发生什么，但除此之外我没什么可说的。
And so it is a thing and, know, I I have nothing to say about it other than I know what happens.
此外，我想说，我熟悉的科技圈里大多数人，都是在静修中心或社交环境中这样做的。
Also, I would say that most people in the tech world that I'm familiar with, again, they've done this in retreat centers or in social environments.
这并没有被量化。
It's not quantified.
这也不是在特定环境中设定的。
It's not set in setting.
所以这是另一回事。
It's and so it's a different thing.
但我想说，就我个人而言，我试图专注的是，我回来后更加有动力去做我现在做的事情。
But I will say like, you know, I I guess me as a person, what I'm trying to focus on, I came back even more motivated to do what I'm doing now.
我不想去森林里隐居，过那种生活。
I don't have a desire to go off in the woods, you know, and, like, and live that kind of life.
它让我更有勇气去从事这些事情，但毫无疑问，你的视角会发生巨大转变，而这种转变很难实现
It it emboldened me to work on these things, but no question about it, you you do have a dramatic shift in perspective, and it's it's very hard to get
确实如此。
that.
一个非常重要的哲学问题。
A very important philosophical question.
是的。
Yeah.
我是谁？
Who am I?
对。
Yes.
如果我的身份由我的经历定义，那就意味着我的神经元以某种方式连接，是的。
If I'm defined by my experiences, it roughly equates to my neurons are wired in a way Yes.
这是我的经历所带来的结果。
That's a consequence of my experiences.
如果我服用一种药物，在几小时内重新连接了我所有的神经元，我还是同一个人吗？
And if I go in and take a drug and in a few hours rewire all my neurons, am I the same person?
是的。
Yeah.
是什么让布赖恩成为布赖恩？
What makes Bryan Bryan?
你或许能回忆起布赖恩服用致幻剂之前的某些记忆，但作为一个人的布赖恩已经被重新连接了。
You can maybe recall some memories of Bryan prior to taking the psychedelic, but Bryan as a person has been rewired.
对。
Yes.
你现在是一个不同的人了吗？
Are you a different person now?
这说明了我们是否始终是同一个人？
And what does that say about are we ever a persistent person?
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
你的问题非常到位。
Your question is spot on.
这可能是你体内六万亿多个细胞最剧烈的重建，远超你一生中任何其他经历。
Probably the most dramatic reconstruction of your 60 plus trillion cells than anything you can do in life.
你知道，比如濒死体验可能有点接近，但这确实是对作为人类的你进行了一次剧烈的重塑。
You know, like, maybe like a near death experience, you know, would would maybe be close, but it's a dramatic rewiring of you as a as a human.
你的价值观也可能改变。
Your values can change too.
那是
That's
对。
right.
你可以比较改变前后的价值观。
And you could judge the values pre and post.
对吧？
Right?
你可以评判宗教强加给你的价值观，是的。
You could judge values ascribed to you by a religion Yep.
或者可能是家庭成员、孩子、配偶、伴侣等强加给你的责任所赋予的价值观。
Or perhaps values ascribed to you by responsibility to family members, children, spouses, partners, what have you.
你抛弃了它们，是的。
You abandon them Yeah.
在你经历这种变化之后。
After you go through this change.
所以你的价值观已经改变了。
So your values have changed.
这是对还是错？
Is it right or wrong?
那是
That's
对的。
right.
我认为，从这一切中又产生了一个重要的问题。
Think I it's another important question that comes out of all this.
我同意。
I agree.
而且就像你现在，你开始这样思考了。
And like you you now like you now think about that.
这是在世界以某种速度变化的框架下发生的。
That's with through the frame where the world changes
在
at
一定的速度下。
a certain speed.
现在你面对的是一个变化更快的世界。
Now you take the world where it's changing faster.
所以我们现在知道，很难预测两周或一个月后会发生什么。
So we now know that it's hard to predict what's gonna happen two weeks from now or a month.
对吧？
Right?
事情变化得非常快。
Like, things are changing very quickly.
因此，你现在会提出一个实际的问题：在人工智能成为创新主导引擎的世界里，人类能否跟上如此快速的变化？
And so now you come up with this practical question, can humans change fast enough in the world where AI is the dominant engine of innovation?
在这种情况下，你可能会希望把致幻剂当作盟友，作为人类，我发现自己很难跟上这种变化。
And so in that case, like, you may want psychedelics as your ally to say, as a human, I'm struggling to, like, move with the change.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，这里存在一种潜在的转变：从劣势变为优势——现在我确实希望这种重组和改变发生，尽管你可能面临一些尾部风险，比如我的优先事项会发生变化。
And so there there's potentially, like, where it it flips from a liability to an asset where now I do want that restructure changing even though you have some tail risk of like maybe my priorities will shift.
我认为你具备一种我称之为心理灵活性的深刻能力，而大多数人并不具备。
I think you have profound what I would call psycho flexibility, and I think most people don't.
他们要么对一夜之间改变自己毫无兴趣，要么害怕改变带来的后果或体验，因而不敢去尝试。
They have either a disinterest in changing who they are overnight or they're fearful of the the the ramifications or the experience and that they wouldn't go through it.
你会把这种想法推进到什么地步？
How far would you take it?
你会不会让自己连接上Neuralink或神经增强设备，从而随时获取信息，甚至通过植入物改变自己的个性和人类能力？
Would you wire yourself up to a Neuralink or neural enhancement device that would give you the ability to have information on demand and maybe change your personality and capacity as a human through an implant.
你会考虑做这样的事吗？
Would you consider doing something like that?
你会的。
You would.
你会考虑一种转基因系统吗？比如使用一个质粒，让它在你体内表达一系列蛋白质，改变你的基因表达谱和细胞状态，从而从根本上重塑你作为一个不同的人？
Would you consider a transgenic system where you basically take a plasmid which would then express a set of proteins in your body and change gene expression profiles and cells in your body and basically could rewire you as a different person?
会的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
你尝试的界限在哪里？
Is there a limit to what you would try?
没有。
No.
很有趣。
Interesting.
你觉得这种想法从何而来？
Where do you think that comes from?
我认为，能够在前沿探索，是生命最令人兴奋的状态。
I think I I find it to be the most exciting configuration of life, the ability to play on the frontier.
新奇、探索与挑战，这真正是我
Novelty and expedition and challenge, that's really my
你一直如此吗？还是你在回应童年时对这些倾向的压抑？
Did you always have it, or are you responding to childhood suppression of those I
这很可能是一种创伤反应的过度补偿，就像大多数事情一样。
bet it's it's it's probably it's probably an overcompensation of of trauma response, like most things are.
所以，小时候，我生活在一个非常结构化的宗教环境中，一切都固定不变。
And so, you know, as a child, I lived in a very structured religious environment where things were cemented.
这就是故事。
Like, here's the story.
这就是计划。
Here's the plan.
这就是你应该做和不应该做的事。
Here's what you do and what you don't do.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，也许我只是完全走向了反面。
And so, yeah, maybe it's probably just I'm now flipped in the opposite.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我的意思是，这很可能确实是真的，我根本不信任自己内心对现实的构建。
And so, I mean, that's, like, probably true that I really I don't trust my internal generation of reality.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，我知道我总是在编造东西。
You know, I know I'm always making things up.
我和所有人类一样，有着188种认知偏差。
I've got a 188 chronicle biases like all humans do.
所以我通常对一切事物都持怀疑态度，也不太把自己当回事。
So I'm just I'm generally suspicious of all things all time, and I don't take myself very seriously.
因此，我觉得现在这种探索和玩耍的空间正是如此，我的意思是，你正在创办一家公司，其实就是打开一个工具箱，然后问：我能构建什么？如何调整？
So I just find the the frontier play space to be like, right now, mean, you know, what you're doing in building a company is, like, you just open up a a a toolkit and say, like, what can I build, and how do I modify?
所以我同意你的看法。
And so I agree with you.
我确实非常倾向于开放和探索式的玩耍。
I do have a a strong proclivity towards openness play.
当你大量探索和提升自我时，你是否发现自己在维持所谓的外部责任方面遇到了挑战？
Do you find that you've been challenged in maintaining, I would call it, external responsibility as you explore and enhance yourself so much?
你会把责任推给周围依赖你或需要你的人吗？
Do you give up the responsibility to others around you who maybe are dependent on you or or in need of you?
是的。
Yeah.
我有三个孩子，所以我经常想到他们。
I have three kids, and so, I do think about them a lot.
当父亲对我来说非常重要，也是我身份中不可或缺的一部分。
And I being a father is a really important thing to me, and it's an important part of my identity.
这一点从未改变。
And so that has not changed.
我从未对此犹豫过，也从未改变过自己的态度。
So I've never, vacillated on that or changed my disposition towards that.
对于我身边的人，我想，幸运的是，我有一群人只会说：去玩吧。
For those around me, I guess, fortunately, I have a a social group that just says go and play.
我生活中真的没有人试图拖我后腿。
There's there's really no one in my life that tries to claw me back.
没有任何黏性的东西。
There's no Velcro.
是的。
Yeah.
一切都是在鼓励我。
It's just all encouraging.
因此，我觉得自己非常幸运，周围的人都愿意承担风险。
And so that, I guess, I feel very fortunate that everyone around me and they're willing to take the risks.
我的意思是，当我开始做5MMEO的时候，我的伴侣凯特其实承担了很大的风险。
I mean, this is you can when I sat down for 5MMEO, I mean, my my partner, Kate, like, she's got a ton of risk.
如果事情搞砸了怎么办？
Like, what if it goes poorly?
如果我改变了观点怎么办？
What if I change my perspectives?
如果发生糟糕的事情怎么办？
What if something bad happens?
所以
So
嗯，有人可能会说，当你承担如此大的风险、事情可能出错时，身边的人是在纵容你，而不是支持你。
Well, one could make an argument that taking that degree of risk where something could have gone wrong, the people around you are enabling versus Yeah.
而是支持你。
Being supportive.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
That's right.
没错。
That's right.
我的意思是，是的。
I mean Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
这是一种后果。
That's a consequence.
但让我们转向其他延长寿命的方式。
But let's shift topics to other modalities for longevity.
是的。
Yeah.
未来还有什么新动向？
What else is on the horizon?
你有过如此深刻的迷幻剂体验。
So you've had this profound set of experiences with psychedelics.
你以极其非凡而细致的方式记录了你所进行的其他干预措施。
You've documented in a very extraordinary and exquisite fashion all of the other things that you've been doing with interventions.
还有哪些新计划？
Are there other things that are on the horizon
是的。
Yeah.
你是否对某些疗法感到兴奋，或者正在考虑自己去尝试？
That you're either excited about or that you're considering yourself?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们之前讨论过的两种疗法——细胞疗法和基因疗法，没错。
I mean, two of the ones that we've spoken about, cell therapy and gene therapy Yep.
是的，它们都还在研发进程中，目前还不能使用。
Yeah, they they're all in the pipeline, so they're not ready yet.
我们已经把今天能做的所有事情都做完了。
We've we've knocked out all the stuff you can do today.
我们已经把所有能做的都过了一遍，完成了。
Like, we've gone through it all, done it all.
下一代疗法还尚未成熟。
The next gen therapies are just not there yet.
所以我们正在研究线粒体再生。
So we're looking at mitochondrial rejuvenation.
我觉得这太不可思议了。
I think that's incredible.
我认为线粒体增强疗法很有前景，我看过一篇论文，提到为了将线粒体送入细胞，研究人员用红细胞膜包裹线粒体，是的。
I think mitochondrial augmentation therapy, and there was a paper I saw where in order to get the mitochondria in the cell, they coated the mitochondria in effectively a red blood cell envelope Yep.
这样能让线粒体更容易进入细胞，同时减少免疫系统的攻击。
Which made it more transportable into cells and less attacked by the immune system.
没错。
Exactly.
这太了不起了。
Which is incredible.
我非常非常非常相信这种疗法路径。
And I I'm a big big big believer in this this this course of therapy.
我认为这将成为一种尚未被任何人认识到的全新治疗方式。
I think it's gonna be a whole therapeutic modality that no one has even recognized.
我同意。
I agree.
我们已经安排了第一项线粒体疗法。
We have our first mitochondrial therapy lined up.
那么你们打算怎么做？
So How are you gonna do it?
你们的线粒体水平已经达到了百分之九十九点九。
You're you're like ninety nine point nine percent.
你们需要的是像百分之四十八点七这样水平的人。
You need someone who's, like, forty eight point seven percent
为了尝试这种线粒体疗法，我同意你的观点。
to try the mitochondrial I agree with you.
特别是，你知道，我认为他们已经在帕金森病患者身上试过了，是的。
Particularly, like, you know, I think they tried it in Parkinson's patients Yeah.
阿尔茨海默病患者。
Alzheimer's patients.
那正是你能看到巨大变化的地方。
That's where you could really see profound shifts Yeah.
在某些指标上。
In in certain metrics.
对你来说，是从99.9%变成多少？
For you, it's like 99.9 to what?
就像，是的。
Like Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我拥有一个48岁的人的线粒体。
I have the mitochondria, you know, of a 48 year old.
对吧？
Right?
所以，假如这样，我是对的。
So, like, what what if That's I right.
如果你能
If I You could
去你兄弟姐妹的孩子那里，因为线粒体是母系遗传的。
go to your sibling's child because the the mitochondria is passed maternally.
是的。
Yeah.
所以它存在于卵子中，是的。
So it's in the it's in the egg Yeah.
所以这是母亲的线粒体。
So it's the mother's mitochondria.
因此，如果你沿着母系一路追溯下去，如果你有一个妹妹，她生了孩子，那孩子会拥有非常年轻的线粒体。
So if you go down in the mother's line maternally, if you have a a sister who has a kid, they're gonna have very young mitochondria.
你可以取一点血液样本，然后大量培养他们的线粒体，将其作为与你生物匹配的材料。
You can take a little blood sample and then grow their mitochondria extensively and use that as a biological match to you.
这真是一个完美的延伸。
This is a a perfect extension.
我有一个儿子，是通过献血方式获得的。
I've had a blood boy as a son.
对。
Yep.
所以我要去找亲戚们，跟他们说：这是个家族项目。
So then I'm just gonna go to the extended family and be like, guys, it's a it's a family project.
是的。
Yeah.
家族项目。
Family project.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，这个非常有趣。
Well, that one's super interesting.
我们还有一个正在做的项目，我现在正在构建。
We also have one that we're doing I've I'm now building
抱歉。
Sorry.
你打算自己做线粒体移植吗？
Are you gonna do your own mitochondrial transplantation?
你是要自己建造生物反应器，还是和已经存在的第三方合作？
You're gonna build a bioreactor or you using working with one of the third parties that are already
第三方公司。
Third company.
是的。
Yes.
所以我在接下来的一两周内会进行一次抽血。
So I'll I'll get I will do a blood draw in the next week or two.
他们会启动并
They'll spin up and
我们来处理。
We'll do it.
好的。
Yeah.
我来处理。
I'll do it.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yep.
所以你会获得你的线粒体，但你知道，线粒体的问题在于，随着时间推移，线粒体DNA会退化。
So you're gonna get your mitochondria, which have some you know, the the problem with mitochondria, as you know, is mitochondrial DNA degradation over time.
对吧？
Right?
这对某些人来说会加速。
It accelerates for certain people.
但这样一来，如果你回到年轻人的状态，你就会拥有年轻的线粒体。
But that way, if you go back to a young person, you have young mitochondria.
没错。
Exactly.
但接着你会大量繁殖你的线粒体，是的。
But then you're gonna multiply yours out Yes.
然后可能会稍微筛选一下，没错。
And probably select a little bit or Exactly.
筛选更健康的吗？
For healthier ones?
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
然后回到
And then sort of back at
这非常具有探索性，我的意思是。
It's very, I mean, exploratory.
就像，我们还不知道。
Like, we don't know.
我们是第一批。
We're one of the first.
他们现在正处于第二阶段。
They're they're in phase two now.
你进行短跑吗？
Do you sprint?
是的。
Yeah.
我有。
I do.
所以你
So you
如果你采用肌肉内注射，比如线粒体疗法，你就能冲刺到你的分数。
could probably score if you did it intramuscular, like, mitochondrial therapy, you could sprint to your score.
这是个好主意。
That's a great idea.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
对。
Yeah.
我会做
I'll do
就是这个。
that one here.
是的。
Yeah.
这将是一种从非基本生物标志物角度来衡量它的绝佳方式。
That would be a great way to measure it from a rather than just a basic biomarker perspective.
是的。
Yeah.
真的很有趣，值得一看。
Be really interesting to see.
是的。
Yeah.
冲刺是被最低估的长寿疗法之一。
Sprinting is one of most underappreciated longevity therapies.
是的。
Yeah.
我不做这个。
I I don't do it.
天哪。
Oh, man.
我的身体年龄大约相当于74岁。
I've got the the age of a 74 year old, roughly.
有什么方法吗？
Is there anything?
我绝对不
I'm definitely not
跟上你的节奏。
keeping track with you.
你有没有考虑过或研究过使用质粒，把某个基因作为DNA注入体内，然后这个基因在体内产生蛋白质，从而发挥某种作用？
Would you consider or have you looked at any plasmids where you take a gene as DNA, it in your body, and then that gene makes protein in your body that that does something.
就像我们之前看过的FOXL3表达的那个。
Like the one we were looking at in the FOXL three expression.
是的
Yeah.
没错
Exactly.
所以，间充质干细胞被用来递送FOXL3。
So the mesenchymal stem cells, it packaged up with the FOXL three delivery.
你知道，数据显示超过百分之五十的组织获得了再生效果。
You know, that showed that over fifty percent of tissues getting that rejuvenation.
这简直难以置信。
It's unbelievable.
难以置信。
Unbelievable.
就像是那件不可思议的事。
It's like the Unbelievable.
这是全世界最出色的演示。
It's the best demonstration in the entire world.
这对组织再生来说太完美了。
That's perfect for tissue regeneration.
比如，作为特定应用场景，使用这种系统进行组织再生简直是不言而喻的。
Like, as a particular application set, tissue regeneration using that sort of system seems like a no brainer.
就像对啊。
It's like yeah.
它是安全的。
It's safe.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
就像没错。
It's like so yes.
我联系了那位中国教授。
I I reached out to that Chinese professor.
我非常感兴趣看到它被复制出来。
I'm really interested in seeing it replicating.
我非常希望
I would love
你联系了那位中国教授？
You reached out to the Chinese professor?
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
对。
Yeah.
我们给他们寄了论文。
We we sent them paper.
是的。
Yeah.
我们完成了。
We're done.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
所以
So
你能回复一下吗？
Can you respond?
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Awesome.
是的。
Yeah.
很好。
Good.
所以我很想做这件事。
So we I'd love to do that.
我真的很想自己来开发它。
I'd love to actually build it ourselves.
是的。
Yeah.
但那是个两年的项目。
But that's like a two year project.
所以
So
AI可以帮助加快进度。
AI can help make it faster.
确实如此。
That's true.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，这是对的。
Actually, that's true.
AI作为这类项目的项目经理是
AI as a project manager for these sorts of programs is
你知道，这是对的。
You know, that's true.
我们六个月前就讨论过这个了。
We we spoke about this six months ago.
是的。
Yeah.
事情已经大不相同了。
Things are so different.
现在和六个月前相比，在搭建方面已经完全不同了。
So different now, six months later in terms of standing up.
那真酷。
So that was cool.
所以我觉得这是个不错的选择。
So I think that's a good good option.
但我也在做布莱恩·约翰逊的类器官。
But also I'm doing Bryan Johnson organoids.
所以我们取了我的iPSCs。
So we took my I p s b I p s c's.
我们现在有
We now have
多能干细胞。
the pluripotent stem cells.
没错。
Exactly.
所以你取了你的细胞，把它们转化为干细胞。
So you took your cells, turn them into stem cells.
是的。
Yep.
对。
Yeah.
所以我们现在在培养皿中进行。
So now we're doing in dish.
所以我们现在有了一个类似布莱恩·约翰逊的心脏、肝脏、肺部，接下来我们要在这些器官上测试分子。
So now we have, like, a Bryan Johnson heart, liver, lungs, and and now we're gonna try molecules on me in in So you have plot.
所以让我为观众梳理一下这个过程。
So so let me just walk the audience through this.
所以你从你的皮肤或血液中取出细胞。
So you take cells off of your skin or something Blood.
血液，然后你把这些山中因子蛋白作用于这些细胞，使它们变成干细胞，这意味着它们可以转化为任何其他类型的细胞。
Blood, and then you put these Yamanaka factor proteins on those cells, causes those cells to become stem cells, which means they can then turn into any other cell.
明白。
Yeah.
然后你再给它们加上其他蛋白质，让它们变成心肌细胞、眼细胞或者其他任何类型的细胞。现在你就拥有了一个储存着这些特定组织的布莱恩·约翰逊细胞的库。
And then you put other proteins on them to turn them into a heart cell or eye cell or or what have And now you've got a store of these tissue specific Bryan Johnson cells
是的。
Yes.
然后你用这些细胞来
That you then use for
比如，你可以说，好吧。
Like, you can say, okay.
如果你给布莱恩·约翰逊的空白细胞用药物，会发生什么？
What if you get Bryan Johnson blank, you know, drug?
会发生什么？
What is what happens?
是好的吗？
Is it good?
是坏的吗？
Is it bad?
有什么副作用？
What are the side effects?
在p3培养皿中，你把药物加进去。
In the p three dish, you put the drug in there.
没错。
Exactly.
看看会发生什么。
See what happens.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以你可以模拟所有这些实验。
So you're like, you can simulate all these experiments.
所以现在你获得了时间上的优势，能够加速确定用药时机、原因和剂量，太棒了。
So now you you get the advantage of time of acceleration of like what to take, why, what dose That's awesome.
需要考虑哪些组合因素。
What combinatorial things to consider.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们已经建立了类器官。
And so we we have the organoids stood up.
我们还没有进行第一次实验。
We haven't done our first takes yet.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为现在我必须采用这种传统方法，比如把它放进我的身体里，等待观察会发生什么。
So that's interesting because now I have to do this old school methodology, like put it in my body, wait to see what happens.
这是好的吗？
Is it good?
这是坏的吗？
Is it bad?
你知道，这会对其他所有事情产生什么影响？
What you know, how does it affect everything else?
完全正确。
Totally.
这是个好问题。
That's a good one.
但是，我的意思是，我不确定。
But, well, I mean, I don't know.
我们走着瞧吧。
We'll see.
这个想法很酷。
It's it's cool in concept.
我的意思是，是否真的有效还有待观察，我们走着瞧吧。
I mean, TBD if it actually works, so we'll see.
你有关注过关于Yamanaka因子的替代方案以及相关因子发现研究吗？
Have you tracked any of the alternatives to Yamanaka factors, the factor discovery work that's going on?
你认为在这个阶段有什么值得测试的吗？
And do you think there's anything worth testing at this stage?
是的。
Yeah.
我是New Limit的投资者，所以我跟他们聊过他们目前的进展，还有Blake和Bryan的
I'm an investor in New Limit, so I've talked to them about the where they're at and Blake and Bryan's
对。
Yeah.
公司。
Company.
他们已经取得了显著的进展。
They've done, I mean, they've made remarkable progress.
是的。
Yeah.
他们找到了如何用计算方法解决发现过程的方法。
They they figured out how to computationally solve the discovery process.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，他们的进展比最初预期快得多，这非常令人鼓舞。
And so they they're much faster than they initially thought, and so that's very encouraging.
你知道，关于Yung Minaca因子，最大的挑战始终是剂量问题。
You know, the big challenge with the yung minaca factors is always dosing.
如果你对一个细胞给药过量，这个细胞可能会变成癌细胞并发展成肿瘤。
If you overdose a cell, a one cell, that cell can become a cancer cell and take off as a tumor.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，你需要精确调控将正确数量的因子（一种蛋白质）导入细胞的敏感度。
So the sensitivity that you need to have to get the right number of the factors, which is a protein into the cell needs to be perfectly tuned.
没错。
Yep.
因此，我有一个理论，这个问题最终会通过细胞开关来解决
So I have a theory that this will end up being solved by cellular switches that will end up putting
哦，明白了。
Oh, see.
是的。
Yeah.
将能够根据细胞内基因表达的测量结果，开启或关闭蛋白质合成的分子机器，是的。
Machinery into the cells that can turn on or off the protein synthesis Yeah.
在正确的剂量下。
At the right dosing based on the measurement of gene expression in the cell.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是我对这个问题最终解决方案的理论。
That's my theory on where this will
会得到解决。
end up.
很有道理。
Lot of sense.
是的。
Yeah.
任何其他控制机制都会不够充分。
Any other control mechanism will be inadequate.
没错。
That's right.
反馈回路就是你所需要的一切
That the feedback loop just All you need
只要出现一个错误，你就会陷入麻烦。
is one error and you're you're you're
在麻烦中。
in trouble.
是的。
Yeah.
但我认为，除了人工智能之外，这是人类当今所面对的最深刻的技术。
But it is it is the most profound, I think, technology humanity is dealing with today besides AI.
我们还没有完全实现核聚变，我认为它可能排在第三位，但它的威力非常强大
We're not quite there with fusion, which I would argue is probably a distant third, but it is very powerful
我同意。
I agree.
什么是可能的。
What's possible.
在未来，我想我们会回过头来看，发现GLP-1是第一个重大突破。
And in the future, like, I think we'll look back and we'll see GLP-1s as the first big drop.
是的。
Yeah.
我心想：什么？
I'm like, what?
我只需要给自己打一针，就能解决饥饿问题，而且
I can just inject myself and, like, it solves hunger and
完全正确。
Totally.
是的。
Yeah.
接下来第二个可能是类似新限制或这些基于血浆的FOX3疗法，它们将展现出真实生活中显著的改变。
And then the second will probably be something like new limit or one of these fox one of these plasma based fox three therapies where it will show real life, like, dramatic changes.
没错。
Totally.
然后，人类将发生转变，原本长寿只是科幻中的愿景，是富人追求的东西，现在会变成真正有意义的议题，重新引发关于社会主义诱惑的讨论。
And then humanity will shift as, like, longevity being a vision of sci fi, you know, rich people pursuit to, like, something that is truly mean, go back to, like, the conversation on on the temptation towards socialism.
对吧？
Right?
如果你能感受到自己有能力追求生活，保持健康、充满活力并掌控一切，我认为这将对社会产生深远影响，不仅仅是健康层面，还有……
Like, if if you can feel robust in your ability to pursue life and be healthy and vibrant and in control, I think these things would have dramatic changes in society, not just in health, but like
任何形式的富足——无论是食物、能源、住房、出行还是寿命的富足。
Well, any form of abundance, whether it's abundance in food, in energy, in housing, in mobility, in lifespan.
人们获得的富足越多，就越幸福。
The more abundance people get, the happier they are.
是的。
Yes.
你越是提升世界的富足，我们作为地球上的群体就会生活得越好。
And the more you're improving abundance in the world, the the better we are going to live as a group of people together on planet Earth.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
我们会彼此更加幸福。
The happier we will all be with each other.
但我觉得，老实说，很多很多
But I think, like, honestly, like, lot of the the the
外部冲突只源于内心的不快乐。
External conflict only comes from internal unhappiness.
百分之百。
100%.
是的。
Yeah.
所以如果你看看美国社会普遍的低迷状态，就不难理解为什么事情这么糟糕了。
So if you look at the general malaise of, like, American society, like, no wonder things are shitty.
对吧？
Right?
比如，高达百分之八十四的人患有代谢性疾病。
Like, you've got meta eighty four percent of people have metabolic disorder.
只有百分之四十的人肥胖。
Only forty percent of people are obese.
我们的健康状况真的很差。
Like, we're just in really poor health.
没人睡得好。
Nobody's sleeping.
人人都在玩手机。
Everyone's on their phone.
我们有心理健康问题。
Like, we have mental health issues.
难怪你会倾向于出现这些结果。
Like, no wonder you have the proclivity towards these kinds of outcomes.
如果你能改善健康状况，就会改变你、你的社区、你的国家的心理决策。
Like, so if you could get the health in check, it changes the psychological decision of you, your community, your country.
你会拥有更强的积极态度。
Like, you have much more of a can do attitude.
我觉得自己能征服世界，能应对各种困难。
Like, I can take on the world, and I can do hard things.
但确实如此。
But Totally.
当你感觉不舒服时，一切都变得困难得多。
When you're not feeling well, like, it's just everything is just so much harder.
是的。
Yeah.
百分之百。
100%.
鉴于这些新的治疗方式以及这些看似有生物学依据并产生深远影响的新机遇，为什么还要继续研究致幻剂呢？
And so in light of all of these new therapeutic modalities and these new opportunities that seem to be biologically proven and have these profound effects, why continue to tinker with psychedelics?
它们是否同样深刻，还是只是补充作用？
Like, are they as profound or are they a complement?
或者，你是如何思考将你所关注的这一整套方法整合在一起的？
Or, like, how do you think about fitting all of this portfolio of things that you're looking at together?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我想问题是，我忘了在Fox o三研究中，他们有没有观察到大脑的再生？
I mean, I guess the question is I forget on the Fox o three study, I don't know if they saw brain rejuvenation.
没有看到这一点。
Didn't see that.
对。
Yeah.
我没看到过，也不记得了。
I did not see that, and I don't I don't remember.
我的意思是，大脑是一个非常复杂的器官。
I mean, it is a very complicated organ.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
太不可思议了。
It's insane.
很难触及。
It's very hard to reach.
你知道，你可以让肌肉组织再生，也可以让皮肤组织再生，这就像是，好吧，我长了一点点x。
You know, you can grow muscle tissue back and you can grow skin tissue back and it's kind of like, okay, I grew a little x.
比如，如果你让神经元再生，但方式不对，我们就不知道了。
Like, if you grow the the neurons back maybe in the wrong way, like, we don't know Yeah.
因为这之前从未有人做过。
Because it's never been done before.
是的。
Yeah.
所以理解神经再生的后果就像是
So understanding the consequence of neuro regeneration is like
所以我在想，也许像裸盖菇素和5-MeO-DMT这样的物质，对身体的基本功能可能没什么意义，但它们或许在提升你对现实的年轻心态方面表现突出。
So I wonder, like, if the role might play, like, you know, maybe psilocybin and five MeO won't be, you know, meaningful for, like, basic functions of body, but maybe it's the the outperformer in youthfulness of your of your disposition towards reality.
有一件事让我感到担忧，我知道我现在48岁。
Like, one thing I'm I'm apprehensive about is, you know, I'm 48.
当你逐渐步入五六十岁的时候，你的视野真的会变得狭窄。
And so as you start climbing to your fifties, sixties, you do really narrow.
你的抱负会从‘我什么都能做’逐渐缩小，越来越局限，我担心使用这些物质会让我失去那种‘一切皆有可能’的年轻心态。
Like, your ambition goes from I can do anything to start, you know, narrowing down further and further, and I worry about using losing a youthful disposition of a can do attitude of anything is possible.
完全正确。
Totally.
也许这就是迷幻剂的作用，是的。
And maybe that's the role of psychedelics is you Yeah.
我们只是经历了一种回弹感，一种‘我能行’、‘我能恢复’的感觉。
We just get a wash of, like, the snapback of, I can and I can bounce.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实是我自己的经历。
That definitely been the case for me.
所以我认为它们很可能扮演着非常重要的角色，它们可能是一些对某些人来说意味着仿佛经历了三、四十年心理 rejuvenation 的东西。
So I think they do probably play a really important role of like, they're probably a set of things that for certain people that will basically, like, mean, I felt like it was, like, thirty, forty years of psychological rejuvenation.
就像，你知道的，它能把我带回一种孩童般的心态。
Like, you know, it's like to transport me back to a childlike state
对。
Yeah.
这太疯狂了。
That is insane.
我从桑拿房里得不到那种感觉，是的。
I don't get that from the sauna Yeah.
也从吃得健康中得不到
Or from eating well
对。
Right.
也从睡得好中得不到。
Or from sleeping well.
我依然觉得是对的。
I'm still Right.
所以这是对的。
So it's Right.
只是独一无二的。
Just unique.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Amazing.
好吧，听我说。
Well, listen.
我要去喝酒、吃碳水化合物，然后熬夜。
I'm gonna go drink alcohol and eat carbs and stay up late.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你打算做什么？
What are you gonna do?
是的。
Yeah.
我会按时睡觉。
I'm gonna go to bed on time.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我要做我的睡前放松流程。
I'm gonna do my wind down routine.
是的。
Yeah.
你做你自己吧。
You do you.
对。
Yeah.
你也是。
You as well.
好好享受。
Enjoy it.
我很感激。
I appreciate it.
这真是太棒了。
This has been great.
是的。
Yeah.
布莱恩·约翰逊。
Bryan Johnson.
谢谢。
Thank you.
是的。
Yeah.
那真是太精彩了。
That was awesome.
那很棒。
That was great.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。