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这家伙真的要悬停在我们上方。
This guy is literally gonna hover over us.
这位飞行员讨厌播客。
This pilot hates podcasting.
真是个混蛋。
What a prick.
最好的朋友们正在世界经济论坛的美国之家进行直播。
The besties are broadcasting from The USA house at the World Economic Forum.
我们的节目由纽约证券交易所赞助。
Our episode is sponsored sponsored by the New York Stock Exchange.
你是否希望改变世界并筹集资金？
Are you looking to change the world and raise capital?
那就去纽约证券交易所吧。
Do it at the NYSE.
纽约证券交易所是一个现代化的市场，一个为规模化和长期影响而打造的庞大平台。
The NYSE is a modern marketplace and a massive platform built for scale and long term impact.
所以，如果你正在为未来而打造，那么纽约证券交易所就是这一切发生的地方。
So if you're building for the future, the NYSE is where it happens.
全力以赴。
All in.
我是杰森·加利卡尼斯。
I'm Jason Galicanis.
这是《All In》访谈节目。
This is the All In interview show.
最后一刻，我们被添加到了世界经济论坛的名单上，因此我们有时间完成了六场采访。
Last minute, we got added to the roster roster here at the World Economic Forum, and we had time to do a half dozen interviews.
布赖恩在这里，这位是Coinbase的布赖恩·阿姆斯特朗，也是我们节目的老朋友。
And Brian was here, and this is your Brian Armstrong from Coinbase, of and friend of the pod.
这可能是你第四次或第五次做客我们的节目了。
This is probably your fourth or fifth appearance on the pod.
你来达沃斯并不是为了社交 networking。
You come to Davos because this actually isn't for you about networking.
这关乎全球范围内的严肃监管。
This is about serious regulations on a global basis.
是的？
Yeah?
这次来达沃斯的重点之一，就是推动加密货币的市场结构立法。
Well, that's been the focus of this attendance at Davos is we are trying to get market structure legislation done for crypto.
但事实上，这里确实有很多社交往来。
But, actually, there I mean, there is a lot of networking that happens here.
我们已经进行了许多商业会谈。
We've done a lot of commercial meetings.
你知道吗，全球前20大银行中有五家现在正使用Coinbase来构建其产品中的加密基础设施。
You know, five of the top 20 global banks are now using Coinbase to build their crypto infrastructure into their products.
我们还会见了不同国家的领导人，与他们讨论经济自由以及加密货币如何更新他们的金融体系。
We meet with heads of leaders of different countries and talk to them about economic freedom and how crypto can update their financial system.
所以这里有很多有益的会面。
So there's all kinds of good meetings.
所以你们在其中嵌入了与银行的合作关系。
So you had embedded in there these partnerships with banks.
这是一种白标类型的合作，让它们能够向客户销售加密货币吗？
Is that like a white label type thing so they can sell crypto to their customers?
是否公开了哪些银行在这样做，以及具体是如何运作的？
Is it disclosed which banks are doing that and how that works?
有几个
A couple of
其中一些是公开的。
them are public.
我们已经谈过与摩根大通、PNC银行的整合。
We've talked about integration with JPMorgan, p and P and C Bank.
有一些尚未公开，但全球前20大系统重要性银行中已有五家正在使用Coinbase进行这项服务。
You know, there's a couple of those that are not public yet, but five of the top 20 GSIBs are now using Coinbase for that.
此外，我们还在为贝莱德等公司提供整合支持，你知道，他们表示希望将旗下所有基金都进行代币化。
And then we're also powering integrations with, like, BlackRock, and, you know, they they've said they wanna tokenize every single one of their funds.
因此，许多金融机构正在接入区块链，这非常好。
And so a lot of these financial institutions are coming on chain, which is great.
这确实很了不起，我一路上都在想，过去十年里你们在与监管机构打交道方面真的非常艰难。
And this is quite I mean, I was thinking on the way over here how you've really struggled to work with regulators over the last decade.
我记得在拜登政府、第四十六届政府时期，你去华盛顿说：我来了。
I remember under the Biden administration, the forty sixth administration, you went to DC and were like, I'm here.
我很想和你们聊聊。
I would love to talk to you.
他们却说：好的。
And they were like, yeah.
我们不想和你谈。
We don't want to talk to you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
现在，人们对唐纳德·特朗普，我们的第四十七任总统，可能有各种看法，但有一件事他做得很到位：认真对待与商业界的互动，并认真推动监管，为加密货币建立合法路径。
Now some people might have varying feelings about Donald Day Trump, our forty seventh president, but one thing he has nailed is interfacing with the business community and taking regulation and creating a legal path for crypto specifically very seriously?
过去一年情况怎么样？过去一年对你来说有什么变化？
What's the how's the last year how have how have things changed for you in the last year?
是的。
Yeah.
我知道你喜欢明辨是非。
Well, I know you like to call balls and strikes.
从我的角度来看，拜登政府确实试图非法扼杀美国的这个行业。
I think just looking at it objectively, you know, the Biden administration really tried to unlawfully kill this industry in America from my point of view.
唐纳德·J·特朗普，你得给他点赞。
And Donald j Trump, you gotta give him credit.
他竞选时就提出要让美国成为全球加密货币之都。
I mean, he campaigned on this idea of making The United States the crypto capital of the world.
他兑现了承诺。
He's kept his promises.
他积极推进建立清晰的规则和监管框架，让美国企业能够蓬勃发展，让美国消费者能从自己的资金中赚取更多收益。
He's leaned in and tried to get clear rules and regulations passed so that American companies can thrive, American consumers can earn more money on their money.
他同时也明白，这是一个重要的政治议题。
And he understands also it's an important political issue.
现在有大约五千万美国人使用加密货币。
There's a huge base of there's, like, 52,000,000 Americans who use crypto now.
对的。
Right.
他们希望看到明确的规则。
And they wanna see clear rules.
他们希望看到美国能提供更好的金融服务。
They wanna see this, you know, get better financial services in The United States.
这本质上也是一个全球竞争力的问题。
It's also, frankly, a global competitiveness issue.
对吧？
Right?
中国刚刚宣布，他们将对央行数字货币支付利息。
I mean, China just announced that they're gonna pay interest on their central bank digital currency.
一些最大的稳定币发行方仍然在海外。
Some of the largest stablecoin issuers are still offshore.
他希望将这些资本回流到美国。
He wants to repatriate that capital and bring it into The US.
这就是我们经历过的疯狂事情。
This is the crazy thing we went through.
我从来就不喜欢那种对未经妥善处理的行为指手画脚的做法。
I was never a fan, calling balls and strikes, of people doing things that weren't buttoned up.
但比起前一届政府根本不坐下来谈，说‘这情况完全不同’，我更不认同。
But I was even less of a fan of the prior administration just not meeting and saying, hey, this is uniquely different.
让我们想办法给你们一条合规的路径。
Let's figure out a way to give you a path to do it properly.
所以在我们的行业里，有时候你不得不重新诠释规则。
And so, you know, in our industry sometimes you have to reinterpret rules.
Airbnb、Uber，我投资生涯中最成功的案例，它们也曾经绕过规则。
Airbnb, Uber, the biggest success of my investment career, like they bent rules too.
加密货币对一些规则进行了调整。
Crypto bent some rules.
有些情况下，人们违反了规则并付出了代价，但我们现在就在这里。
Some cases people broke them and they paid the price, but here we are.
现在，这些规则正在被完善。
Now the rule set is being refined.
我认为对你来说最重要的一个是稳定币以及你与银行的竞争关系。
The most important one I think for you is stable coins and your competition with the bank.
你有银行作为合作伙伴，但同时也是它们的竞争对手。
You have banks as partners, but you're also a competitor to them.
是的？
Yeah?
嗯，我觉得。
Well, I I'd
我说这主要是协作关系。
say it's mostly collaborative.
我认为我接触过的银行首席执行官中，大多数人都对加密货币非常感兴趣。
I'd say the of the bank CEOs that I've met with here, most of them are actually very into crypto.
他们正在开始整合加密货币。
They're they're starting to integrate it.
你知道吗，我昨天会见了全球前十大的银行之一，其首席执行官告诉我，加密货币是他头号优先事项。
You know, I met with one of the top 10 global banks in the world yesterday, and the CEO told me crypto is is my number one priority.
我们认为这关乎生死存亡。
We view that this is existential.
我们全力以赴。
We're all in.
我们打算投入全部
We're going to put all
为什么这对他们来说是生死存亡的问题？
Why is it existential for them?
你指的是什么
What what do
你觉得呢？
you think?
他们看到这就像互联网刚出现的时候，你知道的，亚马逊与巴诺书店竞争，或者博客与《纽约时报》等纸质媒体竞争。
They're seeing it's like it's like when the Internet came around, you know, and you had Amazon competing with Barnes and Noble or you had blogs competing with New York Times, like in print.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
每当世界发生变革时，你可以把它看作是机遇，也可以看作是威胁，把头埋进沙子里，假装它没有发生。
And so anytime there's always change happening in the world, and you can think of it as an opportunity or you can think of it as a threat and bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not happening.
但现实是，加密货币规模巨大。
But the reality is that crypto is massive.
全球大约有五亿人使用过它。
Like, something like 500,000,000 people have used it globally.
你知道，比特币是过去十年表现最好的资产类别。
You know, Bitcoin was the best performing asset class of the last decade.
世界上最大的金融机构现在正在整合这一技术。
The largest financial institutions of the world are now integrating this.
因此，在这一点上，我认为否认这一切正在发生是愚蠢的。
And so at this point, I don't I think it's foolish to pretend that this isn't happening.
顺便说一下，我们还有《天才法案》。
And we also, by the way, have the Genius Act.
稳定币法案现在已经正式成为法律，我们不会撤销它。
The Stablecoin bill is now passed into law, so we're not gonna undo that.
这已经是国家法律了。
That is that is law of the land.
国会刚刚把它变成了法律。
Like, Congress just put that into law.
这非常重要，因为我的好朋友大卫·萨克斯推动的正是这些必须接受审计。
And it's very important because what David Sachs, my my bestie, I think led there was these have to be audited.
这些必须公开透明。
These have to be above board.
我们不能让稳定币出现挤兑，嗯。
We can't have a run on stablecoins Mhmm.
坦白说，人们早就预料到泰达币迟早会出问题。
Which, let's face it, people anticipated Tether would have at some point.
他们被处以了大量罚款。
There were lots of fines they got.
还有这些审计证明。
There was these attestations.
人们根本不确定他们是否真的拥有宣称的资产。
People didn't know if they even had the resources they had.
而现在情况已经很清楚了。
And now it's pretty clear.
你必须将资产存放在国债中。
You have to keep your assets in treasuries.
对吧？
Correct?
没错。
It's correct.
根据去年通过的《天才法案》，受美国监管的稳定币必须将100%的资产存放在短期美国国债中。
Under the Genius Act that got passed into law last year, US regulated stablecoins have to have 100% of the assets stored in short term US treasuries.
所以，像三十天期国债这样的期限，我认为是上限。
So something like thirty days thirty day treasuries are the max, I believe.
所以，这基本上是你能获得的最安全的资产了。
So that's pretty much the safest thing you can get.
你知道的吧？
You know?
当然。
Sure.
你本质上是在相信美国政府在三十天内不会倒闭，我认为这相当安全。
You're basically trusting the United States government is not gonna fail in thirty days, which I think is a pretty safe
是的。
Yeah.
我要选个稳妥的方案。
I'm gonna go safe bet.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，我也一直在强调，银行会进行一种叫做部分准备金放贷的操作。
And, you know, I've been making this point as well that banks do something called fractional reserve lending.
它们实际上并不会把你的所有钱都存着。
They actually don't store all your money there.
它们会把钱贷出去。
They're lending it out.
这就是为什么银行的监管成本如此之高，因为可能会发生挤兑。
That's why they have such high regulatory overhead because there can be a run on the bank.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这给了它们一种非常独特的商业模式。
And it gives them a very unique business model.
他们基本上可以把它贷出去。
They can basically lend it out.
你知道，有个老笑话是说，你以6%的利率贷出去。
You know, the the old joke is, like, you lend it out at 6%.
你支付3%，然后你就可以在三点钟左右去打高尔夫了，或者类似的时间。
You pay three and you're on the, you know, the tee time by 03:00 or whatever.
但确实。
But Yeah.
除非你有企业或银行牌照，否则这种商业模式对你来说是不可用的。
That business model is not available to you unless you have a business or a bank license.
但在100%储备的稳定币世界里，你不需要银行牌照，而且你可以向人们提供
But in a stablecoin world with a 100 reserves, you don't need a bank license for that, and and you can give people Because
因为它更安全。
it's safer.
对。
Right.
我们看到了这种情况。
And we saw this.
硅谷银行本质上是这么做的。
Silicon Valley Bank essentially Mhmm.
他们可能在国债配置上 timing 出了问题。
Had mistimed their allocations with treasuries, I guess.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那发生了什么？
And what happened?
他们遭遇了银行挤兑。
They had a run on the bank.
当时我正在参加董事会会议，我想是周四，挤兑发生在周四下午，我收到一条短信，说‘赶紧把钱从硅谷银行取出来’。
Literally, was in a board meeting, and in the board meeting on, I think it was a Thursday, and the run happened Thursday afternoon, I get a text like, get your money out of Silicon Valley Bank.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我正在参加董事会会议。
I'm in the board meeting.
我们正在讨论这件事。
We're having it's on the docket.
第三件事是讨论硅谷银行，嗯。
Like, the third thing is to talk about Silicon Valley Bank, and Mhmm.
我们所有的钱都存在那里。
We'll have a 100% of our money in there.
董事会的两位成员是
Two of the board members are
我们不能一下子把钱全提出来。
like, we can't just take all
把钱全部从硅谷银行取出。
the money out Silicon Bank.
他们是我们三十年来的绝佳合作伙伴。
They've an incredible partner for thirty years.
我说，不如我们取出一半，这样我们
I said, how about we take out half so we
就能发工资了。
can make payroll?
我坚持这么做。
I insisted.
是的。
Yeah.
就在那天晚上，突然间。
Literally that night, boom.
所以现在关键问题是你的商业模式。
And so the key issue now is your business model.
你需要有收入，而这些稳定币的收入正在支付一些利息，让把资金投入其中的人能够从他们辛辛苦苦赚来的资本中获得一些回报。
You need to have revenue, and the revenue from these stablecoins is paying some interest, and the people who are putting their money in there being able to make some interest on their hard earned capital.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是你的关键问题吗？
That's the sticking point for you?
是的。
Yeah.
而且这不是利息。
And it's not interest.
这是一个奖励计划。
It's a rewards program.
这是在《天才法案》中仔细协商的。
This was carefully negotiated in the Genius
是的。
Yes.
法案。
Act.
是的，这就是我们的看法。
And, yes, that's that's our view.
我的意思是，你看
I mean, look,
在我看来，这有什么区别呢？
in in my opinion, it's actually What's the difference there?
这个奖励计划，我们应该把它看作是美国运通积分吗？
What what the reward program, we should think of it like American Express points?
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，有很多信用卡奖励计划，但法律上的区别在于，奖励不能仅仅基于你持有的余额。
I mean, there's lots of credit card reward programs, but the difference legally is that rewards can't be based solely on the balance you're holding.
客户必须进行某种其他活动，比如付款、交易，或者订阅Coinbase One。
The customer has to do some sort of other activity like payments or trading or they have a subscription to Coinbase one.
所以当客户这样做时，我们实际上将大约100%的经济收益返还给他们，以换取他们持有这些稳定币，这是增长的重要驱动力。
So when customers do that, we actually pass along about a 100% of the economics to them for holding those stablecoins with us, and that's a big driver of growth.
现在，你知道，人们一直都在权衡：他们是想把钱放在货币市场，还是存成银行存款？
Now, you know, there's always been this balance between do people wanna put their money in money markets or do they wanna put it as bank deposits?
我认为，加密货币在这一维度上并没有真正的新意，它只是这种现象的另一种形式，之前人们一直对这种趋势会摧毁整个贷款市场感到担忧，而且——
I think that that is not this crypto is not really new in that dimension, like, it's just another flavor of this happening, and there's been a lot of hand wringing about, you know, this is gonna destroy all the lending market, and like,
我不认为这是真的。
I don't think that's true.
货币市场已经高达数万亿美元，而且还有高利率的支票账户。
Like, money markets are already trillions of dollars, and there's high deposit high yield checking accounts.
但这些银行从未面对过一个如此擅长自身业务的技术型竞争对手。
But these banks haven't had to deal with a disruptive competitor, a technology competitor who's really good at what they're doing.
所以他们对自己的业务模式有点紧张。
So they're a little bit nervous about their franchise.
是的。
Yeah.
这是我的理解。
Is my interpretation.
我理解得对吗？
Am I correct?
其中一些人确实感到担忧。
Some of again, some of them are nervous.
有些人则将其视为一种机遇。
Some of them are leaning into it as an opportunity.
我认为，我们更希望所有人都能成功。
I think the latter we want everyone to win here.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，你知道的，我不能代表总统发言，但根据我对他的言论的理解，他希望所有美国企业都能成功。
And I think that's what you know, I don't speak for the president, but, like, my interpretation of his comments is that he wants all American businesses to win.
这里有一个双赢的结果，但如果有人试图破坏刚刚通过的这项精妙立法，他可能会——我——
There there is a win win outcome here, but if someone, know, is gonna try to undermine his legislation that just got passed ingenious, he'd probably I I
现在真的在发生这种情况吗？
Is that what's happening now?
银行正在试图重新谈判这笔交易吗？
The banks are trying to re trade the deal?
我知道，我不想这么说，我的意思是，这里得小心一点。
I you know, I don't wanna like, I mean, be careful here.
有银行行业协会，我认为他们正试图推翻《天才法案》。
I there's the bank trade groups, which I believe are trying to undo the Genius Act.
明白了。
Got
嗯。
it.
它才在四个月前刚成为法律。
It just got passed into law four months ago.
对我们来说，这是条红线。
And for us, that's a red line.
我跟行业内许多其他人谈过，对他们来说，这也是条红线。
I've talked to many others in the industry that for them, that's a red line.
我认为我们必须接受这已经是法律，它将继续存在，但这并不意味着银行和加密公司在这个新世界中都能赢。
I think we have to accept that that's law and that's gonna continue to exist, but that doesn't mean banks and crypto companies can both win in this new world.
是的
Yeah.
所以这只是一个经典的故事
So this is just a classic tale
Encompass 和 是的。
of Encompass and Yeah.
Encompass 和 新加入的人。
Encompass and and new folks.
你希望与他们合作。
And you wanna partner with them.
你希望支持他们。
You wanna enable it.
你和 Circle 的老朋友杰里米·奥拉尔有着良好的合作关系。
You have a a good partnership with Jeremy Olar, old friend of mine at Circle.
他们是 Coinbase 的默认稳定币吗？或者你如何看待与他们的关系？
Are they like the default stablecoin in Coinbase or how do you think about the relationship with them?
我们该如何看待与他们的关系？
How should we think about the relationship with them?
是的。
Yeah.
我们与Circle有着牢固的关系，USDC是最大的受监管稳定币，因为它确实如此。
So we've got a strong relationship with Circle and USDC is the largest regulated stablecoin because it is Yeah.
它在美国符合Genius的合规要求。
Compliant under Genius in The US.
他们在欧洲也符合MICA等法规。
They're compliant under MICA in Europe, etcetera, etcetera.
你知道，还有另一个你熟悉的，那就是Tether。
You know, there's another one that you're familiar with, which is still Tether.
是的。
Yeah.
但我认为它正在努力成为
But I think it's in the process of being So trying
据我理解，他们正在清理它。
to clean it up is my understanding.
是的。
Yeah.
以便他们能够参与。
So that they can participate.
最可能的情况是会出现两种Tether，一种是美国的，符合监管要求。
The likely scenario is there'll be two Tethers, a United States one, and then that complies.
嗯。
Mhmm.
另一种是美国境外的、无法无天的Tether。
And then there'll be the Wild West one outside The US.
你也是这么听说的吗？
Is that what you've heard as well?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我应该提一下，我们和Circle并没有独家合作。
And I should mention, we don't have like an exclusive with Circle or anything like that.
我们实际上在平台上列出其他稳定币。
We we actually list other stablecoins on our platform.
列出Tether吗？
List Tether?
我们在某些方面支持它，尤其是那些想兑换Tether的人，我们确实支持。
We support it in certain ways, you know, especially people who wanna convert Tether, but we we support it.
我们还支持PayPal稳定币。
We also support PayPal stablecoin.
我们也开放列出其他稳定币。
We're open to listing others too.
所以我们并没有
So we we don't have
对USDC的独家协议。
an exclusive on USDC.
是的。
Yeah.
但你并没有推荐它。
But you're not endorsing it.
你是允许人们交易入Tether，还是只允许他们将Tether转出？
And do you let people trade into Tether or just let them trade out of Tether?
也就是说，它的具体运作机制是怎样的？
Like, how does it work mechanically?
我认为不同国家的情况不同。
I think it's different in different countries.
我想确保我说得完全准确。
I wanna make sure I get it exactly right.
但在我们被允许操作的国家，我们确实支持Tether。
But in countries where we're allowed to do it, I mean, we support Tether.
对。
Right.
这很复杂。
It's it's nuanced.
你是否担心过Tether，或者历史上是否担心过他们对监管和交易采取的那种松散态度？
Are you concerned about or have you been historically concerned about Tether and, like, their little bit of a loosey goosey approach to regulations and trading?
我用这个词来形容，并不是你，但我想，考虑到监管机构过去五到十年一直密切关注它，而且人们普遍担心它可能随时崩溃引发挤兑，对你来说，与它走得太近、万一它真的崩盘就太冒险了。
I'm giving it that descriptor, not you, but I I would think having it on your platform with regulators pretty focused on it over the last five or ten years and this, you know, belief that this thing could all come apart and create a run, that to you is just not worth the risk to to be too close to it in case it does flip over.
是吗？
Yeah?
是的。
Yeah.
我们确实经常被问到这个问题。
We we definitely gotten questions on it.
但我要在这里小心措辞。
And look, I I wanna be careful here.
我其实挺喜欢Tether的团队。
I actually like the Tether guys.
我认为他们为世界做了很多好事。
I think they've done a lot of good things in the world.
有一些人正面临本币严重贬值的问题，比如年通胀率达到70%甚至100%。
There's people who really are they're struggling with local currencies that are have like 70, a 100% inflation year over year.
因此，对美元的需求非常高。
And so there was high demand for the dollar.
他们在许多新兴市场建立了出色的分发网络。
They got great distribution in a lot of the emerging markets.
我真的认为他们为世界带来了许多积极影响。
I actually think they've done a lot of good for the world.
但目前，根据美国的《天才法案》，Tether并不合规，据我所知，它也没有遵循100%持有短期美国国债的储备要求。
But, yeah, it's not currently compliant under the Genius Act in The US, and so it doesn't follow those same 100% reserves in short term US Treasuries is my understanding.
所以人们必须自己做出判断。
So people have to make their own determination on that.
我认为其他国家也在跟进，清理这些问题。
And I think other countries are following suit in terms of cleaning this up.
现在在加密货币领域，有没有一种方式可以给消费者提供一个客观的评级，比如这个是M级？
Is there in crypto now a way to give a rating that is sort of objective for consumers to say, like, this one has this grade Mhmm.
并且遵守这些监管规定。
And follows these regulations.
嘿。
Hey.
这个是符合这个级别的。
This one is follows this level.
这个等级较低，而这个不遵守规定，你知道的，它是个模因币。
It's a lower grade, and this one doesn't follow, and it's, you know, it's a meme coin.
随便吧。
Whatever.
这就像西部荒野。
This is the Wild West.
就像在赌场里不准哭一样。
Like, no crying in the casino coins.
作为平台，你有责任或机会去告知参与其中的人们，到底该怎么做呢？
Like, what what is your responsibility as a platform or opportunity as a platform to, like, inform the people who are participating?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们努力设定最低的上币标准。
So what we try to do is have minimum listing standards.
如果我们认为存在网络安全风险，开发者可能会卷款跑路，或者从合规角度看明显违法，我们会关注几个不同的方面。
So if we believe that there's a cybersecurity risk to it, the developer could, you know, rug everyone, or if if it's certainly, it's illegal from a compliance point of view, you know, there's a few different areas we look at.
只要达到最低标准，我们就会上架，然后让客户自己决定。
So if it meets the minimum bar, we will list it, and then we let customers decide.
我不觉得我们的职责是推荐投资，就像传统金融世界里有AAA级债券一样。
I don't feel like it's our job to be recommending investments, know, like in the traditional financial world, there's like these triple a rated bonds and Yes.
你知道，我一直觉得这些做评级的机构很容易被政治化，没错。
You know, and I It always felt a little bit like those organizations that do the ratings can always be politicized and like Yeah.
去看看《大空头》。
Go see the Big Short.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我不觉得这应该被看作是
So I don't I think of it a
有点像应用商店。
little bit like the app stores.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，你或者比如说亚马逊。
I mean, you or the or let's say Amazon.
我的意思是，你想要一个无所不包的交易平台。
I mean, you wanna have the Everything Exchange.
你想要一个无所不包的商城。
You wanna have the Everything Store.
我的意思是，所有合法的东西都应该放在商城里，不过也许我们以后可以加入客户评价。
You know, everything that's legal should be in the store, but maybe there's customer reviews we we could add at some point.
我们其实曾经试过一段时间。
We actually tried that for a little bit.
比如你在亚马逊上看到一个两星评价的商品，你还是可以购买，但至少你信息更充分了。
Like, you see a two out of five star thing on Amazon, you can still buy it, but it's kinda at least you're informed.
我们曾经尝试过引入用户评分。
We we tried making user ratings at one point.
效果不太好，因为人们基本上是根据自己喜好投票，你知道的，没错。
It didn't go that well because people were basically voting with their whatever they like, you know Sure.
他们自己的书。
Their their book.
是的
Yeah.
谈论他们的项目。
Talking their book.
所以不管怎样，我们现在处于仅要求披露和最低上市标准的阶段。
So anyway, we've we and then right now, we're in the regime of just disclosures and minimum listing standards.
对。
Yeah.
目前你对哪些加密项目最感兴趣？
Which crypto projects do you find the most fascinating right now?
BitTensor 这类项目，还有一些新兴的、真正为问题提供技术解决方案的项目，比如分布式计算等等。
The BitTensor one, some of these ones that are popping up that are actually providing technological solutions to problems, distributed computing, etcetera.
我觉得这些很有趣。
I find those fascinating.
确实如此。
They are.
我的意思是，人们正试图将数据中心和石油储备等资产代币化。
I mean, people are trying to tokenize data centers and, like, oil reserves.
我认为当前加密领域最大的趋势是：第一，一切都在交易所进行。
I think I think the biggest trends happening in crypto right now is, number one, it's everything exchange.
这不仅仅是加密货币的交易。
So it's not just crypto you you can trade.
你正在获得股票，或者越来越接近能够链上交易。
You're getting equities or increasingly getting closer to being able to trade on chain.
预测市场是
Prediction markets are You
你有合作伙伴做这个吧。
have a partner for that.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我们目前正与Calshi合作。
We're working with Calshi currently.
Calshi。
Calshi.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
这是独家合作吗？还是你们愿意把其他人也上到平台？
Is that exclusive or are you willing to put anybody up on the bing?
这不是独家的，我们也在看其他平台。
It's not exclusive, so we're looking at others as well.
我知道你们在船上和Polymarket或者其他平台合作。
I know you guys work with Polymarket or whatever on the ship.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我曾经是Robinhood的原始天使投资人之一，我觉得他们也在做Calcchi。
I mean, I'm a I was one of the original angel investors in Robinhood, and I think they're doing Calcchi too.
是的。
It's Yeah.
看起来人们都在尝试不同的平台。
Seems like people are plugging different ones in.
Polymarket是我们最钟爱的。
Polymarket's our favorite.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我们正在和Polymarket洽谈，但当然，我们也可以自己上线预测市场。
We so we're talking to Polymarket, but, you know, we can also list our own prediction markets.
哦，你们可以启动
Oh, you could fire up
你自己的。
your own.
是的。
Yeah.
所以不管怎样，我们看好这个趋势，我觉得是的。
So anyway, we're long I think that yeah.
最大的趋势是所有资产都在上链进行交易。
The biggest trends are all assets are coming on chain for trading.
预测市场和稳定币支付都在疯狂增长。
Prediction markets are growing like crazy, and stablecoin payments are growing like crazy.
这可能是目前加密货币领域三大最显著的趋势。
Those are probably the three biggest trends in crypto right now.
你认为稳定币什么时候会真正被企业广泛采用？
When do you think stablecoins tip into the area of businesses?
这个问题有两个部分。
Two part question.
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企业使用稳定币进行支付，比如为了减少摩擦，某个设计师为Coinbase设计新Logo，你希望支付他们25000美元，这笔钱就通过稳定币转账。
Businesses using it for payments, you know, maybe to reduce friction, you know, some designer does some work for Coinbase and makes your new logo, and you want to send them $25,000, it goes through a stablecoin.
这种情况什么时候才会开始发生？
When does that start to happen?
而对于消费者来说，人们在打扑克时，什么时候会开始通过他们的Coinbase账户用稳定币结算？
And then for consumers, when do people at a poker game start settling up with, you know, through their Coinbase account with a stablecoin?
是的。
Yeah.
过去一年增长最快的领域是企业对企业（B2B）的跨境支付。
So the biggest growth area over the last year has been b to b cross border payments.
跨境支付。
And Cross border.
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是跨境支付，因为有很多公司，比如他们从亚洲或欧洲采购商品，然后在巴西的店铺销售，但过去要等七天，还要支付高额的外汇手续费，诸如此类的问题
Cross border especially because there's a lot of these companies, you know, they might be buying goods from Asia or Europe, trying to sell it in their shop in Brazil or whatever is, and they have to wait seven days and there's high FX fees and all this kind
要转移的东西很多。
of stuff to move.
费用太离谱了。
Crazy, the fees.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这方面增长得非常好。
So that's been growing really nicely.
我们推出了一款名为 Coinbase Business 的产品，服务于许多希望进行跨境支付、开票、税务和会计等业务的中小型企业，那么具体是怎么做到的呢？
You know, we we launched a product called Coinbase Business, which is serving lots of small and medium sized companies who wanna do cross border payments and invoicing and tax and accounting and all How do
你们是怎么找到这些客户的？
you find those customers?
我的意思是，这是一群非常独特的人，还是他们自己找上门来的？
I mean, that that's like a really unique group of people or do they just find you?
目前，客户们纷纷主动找上门来。
Currently, they're beating a path to our door.
我们实际上积压了大量等待入驻的用户，因此需要扩充这个团队的人手。
We we actually have a huge backlog we need to of people waiting to onboard, so we need to staff up that team.
我们还推出了一个名为Coinbase开发者平台的产品，它有点像AWS。
We also launched something called Coinbase Developer Platform, which provide it's kinda like AWS if you want.
你可以用它来白标任何东西，比如与银行合作，但许多其他企业也在用它来做钱包、交易、支付、质押、融资等各种业务。
So that's like you can white label anything like with the banks, but lots of other businesses are using that for wallets, trading, payments, staking, financing, all kinds of things.
你提到过代币化。
You mentioned tokenization.
我之前和弗拉德聊过。
I was talking with Vlad.
他做了一个小实验。
He did a little experiment.
嘿。
Hey.
为什么我不把一些OpenAI的股票代币化呢？
Why don't I tokenize some OpenAI shares?
萨姆和萨姆女士对这个想法并不太热衷。
Sam wasn't Sam Woman wasn't too thrilled with that.
你怎么
How do you
看待这个机会呢？
think about that opportunity?
我是一名私募市场投资者。
I'm a private market investor.
我非常希望可以
I would love to be
能够把我对Robinhood或Uber早期的投资，当它们还在上升期时，放到市场上让别人交易，是的。
able to take my early position in Robinhood or my early position in Uber as it was going up and put it into a market and let people trade it and Yeah.
这对风投和
That would be very interesting to for VCs, for,
对于天使投资者来说，能够
you know, angel investors to be able
来灵活调配这些股份。
to move that around.
你怎么看这个问题？
How do you think about it?
我认为这必须得到公司的许可，因为如果你是一家私营公司，你肯定不希望员工在一年后就能套现。
Well, I think it has to be done with the permission of the companies because, know, if you're if you're a private company, you don't want your employees to be able to get liquid after one year.
你之所以设置归属期，就是这个原因。
You're trying you know, that's why you have vesting.
归属期是一种留人机制。
That's why it's it's a retention mechanism.
让我们一起努力，也许等到公司上市时再考虑，因为确实有创始人过早进行二级市场套现，结果公司没做起来，情况就变得很糟。
Like, let's all build this together and, like, maybe when we go public because there are stories of founders who, like, took a little secondary too early, then the company didn't didn't work out and it's, you know, bad off.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为在加密货币领域，私人市场首先应该让链上资本募集对私营公司变得容易得多。
So I think what's gonna happen in in crypto is that in the private markets, like, first of all, we should make on chain capital formation way easier for private companies.
所以，如果你想这么做，这正是我们正在与美国证券交易委员会和其他机构讨论的内容。
So if you wanna go this is this is what we're chatting with the SEC about and others.
你的意思是，你能去注册一项证券吗？
It's like, you know, can you go register a security?
目前，在美国，你只能向合格投资者募集资金。
Right now, you'd only be able to raise money from credit investors in The US.
我知道你和我对此看法一致。
I know you you and I agree on this.
我们希望扩大合格投资者的认定标准。
Like, we'd like to expand how you can become an accredited investor.
现在有一项法案正在推进中，它基本上意味着美国证券交易委员会——他们已经被赋予了这项职责，但我不确定你是否深入了解过SEC。
And there is a bill right now that's working its way, and it would basically mean the SEC and and they've already been charged with this, but they they I don't know if you've studied the SEC at all.
他们往往行动缓慢，而且常常不执行被要求做的事情。
They tend to take their time and then not do what they've been told to do.
其中一项他们本该做的就是建立一套合格投资者的测试机制。
Well that was one of the things they were supposed to do is create an accreditation test.
嗯，我觉得这个SEC实际上进展得很快，但这个是。
Well, this I say this SEC is actually moving very quickly, but This one is.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
但确实，我认为这会是一种更公平的方式，因为否则这就像是累退税，只有富人才能通过私人投资变得更富。
But, yeah, I think that would be a more fair way because otherwise it's kind of like a regressive tax, like only rich people can get richer on private investments.
但无论如何，我认为链上资本形成将为私营公司带来巨大影响。
But anyway, I think on chain capital formation is gonna be massive for private companies.
我认为最终，你甚至可以直接在链上完成上市，而且这些市场将会变得越来越...
I think eventually, like, you'll actually just be able to go public totally on chain too, And, yeah, these markets are just gonna get
将大幅降低成本，减少摩擦，并促进财富创造的民主化。
Would lower the cost massively, reduce the friction, and increase the democratization of wealth creation.
是的。
Yeah.
当你还是私营公司的时候，想想看，嗯。
If you think about when you were a private company Mhmm.
那时候，你积累了大量被压抑的需求，人们疯狂地想购买股份。
Like, you had all this pent up demand, people trying to buy the shares like crazy.
他们都在做各种幕后、不透明的操作，设立各种SPV。
They were all doing backdoor kind of shady stuff, popping up SPVs.
我不知道你有没有关注现在的SPV市场，但已经变成一个诈骗中心了。
I don't know if you've been following the SPV market now, but there's like it's turned into a boiler room.
不再像克里斯·萨卡代表推特，或者埃隆每六个月有序地操作一次，让SpaceX保持控制权。
It's no longer Chris Saka representing Twitter and, you know, doing an orderly thing or Elon doing every six months an orderly thing where SpaceX keeps control of it.
现在，人们跑去向牙医和普通民众、高净值个人募资，去买SpaceX或Andro之类的股份，然后他们四处寻找股票，向投资者收取10%的手续费，还不收业绩提成。
Now people are going out raising money from dentists and civilians, high net worth individuals to buy SpaceX or Andro or whatever it is, and then they go try to find the shares and they charge them 10% load in fee, no carry.
嗯。
Mhmm.
想想看，这有多疯狂。
I mean, think about how crazy that is.
是的
Yeah.
对于一些大型私营公司来说，需求非常高，这在某种程度上是监管加强后意想不到的后果的一个好例子。
There's such high demand for some of these large private companies and, you know, it's kind of a good example of, like, the unintended consequences of higher regulation sometimes.
对的
Yep.
比如，萨班斯法案之类的法规大大减少了公司上市前保持私有的时间，而像Airbnb这样的公司，大部分利润都是由私人投资者或信贷投资者赚取的，就像你本人一样。
Like, you know, Sarbanes Oxley and all that kind of stuff really cut down the number of how how long companies stayed private before they went public, and then, yeah, mean, and Airbnb and lot of these things, like, they all the money was made by private investor or credit investors like, you you know, yourself.
当它们最终上市时，股价却表现平平。
And then when they went finally went public, it kinda went sideways.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
Airbnb、Uber都经历过，
Airbnb, Uber, they all had,
我认为它们都经历了五年的消化期。
a five year indigestion period, I would say.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的？
You know?
而且它
And it
有些公司，我觉得Instacart上市时从300亿美元跌到了100亿美元，当时就那样了。
it and some people, I think Instacart wound up going from 30,000,000,000 down to 10,000,000,000 when they went public, and it was like, okay.
我们得让最后一批投资者从这个坑里爬出来。
We gotta dig out of a hole the last series of investors.
这就是这种现象的意外后果，因为你没有人为公司以某种合理的方式设定估值。
And that is the unintended consequence of this because you don't have anybody setting a proper valuation for the company in some reasonable way.
那基金呢？
What about funds?
你知道，我经常收到很多海外人士的联系。
You know, I I get approached by a lot of people, offshore, etcetera.
嘿。
Hey.
去筹你的下一轮种子基金吧。
Take your next seed fund.
你要搞一个5000万美元的基金。
You're gonna do a $50,000,000 fund.
把它上链吧。
Let's put it on the chain.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后，嘿。
And then, hey.
如果你是我其中一位有限合伙人，然后你说：‘我需要流动性。’
If you were one of my LPs and you were like, oh, I need liquidity.
我就可以把它转卖给别人。
I could just sell it to somebody else.
或者，如果我是红杉基金的有限合伙人，想把我的份额卖给你，你可以为我买下，我们只需拿出钱包，唰唰两下就完成了。
Or if I was an LP in a Sequoia fund and I wanted to sell you the interest, you could buy it for me, and we could just take our wallets out and zip zip.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这一定会发生。
I think that's that's absolutely gonna happen.
我的意思是，Coinbase 实际上推出了一款名为 Coinbase Tokenize 的产品，我们正在帮助任何基金、房地产项目或任何希望将其资产通证化的人，这真正实现了普惠性。
I mean, Coinbase launched a product actually called Coinbase Tokenize, so we're helping any fund or real estate project or anybody who wants to tokenize their products, And it just democratizes access.
它增加了需求。
It increases demand.
它消除了大量后台费用，也消除了结算风险，因为可以在链上即时结算。
It gets rid of a lot of the back office fees, gets rid of the settlement risk because it can be settled instantly on chain.
还有一些非常创新的案例，比如贝莱德、阿波罗——这些全球顶级基金已经公开表示，他们希望将旗下所有产品都通证化。
And there's some very innovative comp I mean, like BlackRock, Apollo, like these the top funds in the world are putting they've they've come out publicly and said they wanna tokenize every single one of their products.
这绝对正在发生。
It's it's absolutely happening.
他们如何保持对它的控制？
How do they keep control of it?
因为这种更流动的资产可能会带来意想不到的后果。
Because you have this more liquid back to unintended consequences.
这会带来下游影响、二阶影响、三阶影响。
This would be downstream effects, second order effects, third order effects.
如果一个风险投资基金或房地产投资信托（REIT）上链，会引发哪些二阶和三阶影响？
What are the third second and third order effects that would happen if a venture fund or a REIT were on chain?
嗯。
Mhmm.
你有考虑过这一点吗？
Have you thought that through?
你有深入思考过吗？
Have you thought it through?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
意思是，有不同类型的基金。
Mean, so there's different types of funds.
有些只对机构合格投资者开放。
Some are gonna be only available to institutions accredited.
有些则对散户开放。
Some would be open to retail.
因此，对于散户这一块，我的意思是，你实际上可以在五分钟内让全球数千万人全部参与进来，平均投资额可能是100美元或1000美元，对吧？
And so for the retail side, I mean, you could actually get, I don't know, like tens of millions of people around the world in five minutes to all put in, and the average price might be a $100 or a thousand dollars, right?
所以这真正实现了投资的民主化。
So it starts to really democratize access.
我的意思是，我们最近刚刚发布了这份报告，人们听说过无银行账户的人群，但还有40亿成年人是无投资渠道的，这意味着他们根本没有机会投资这些高质量资产。
I mean, we actually just published this report recently, and people have heard about the unbanked, but there's 4,000,000,000 adults who are unbrokered as well, which means they don't have any ability to invest in these high quality assets.
所以这就像资本家——比如你和我——创造财富的引擎。
So it's like this is the engine of wealth creation for capitalists, you know, like you and I.
很多人只是被困住了。
A lot of people are just stuck.
他们唯一的收入来源就是劳动。
The only way they can earn is from their labor.
对吧？
Right?
他们可能想把哪怕一百美元或一千美元的10%投入标普500、Coinbase股票、Nvidia或者其他任何标的，但他们做不到，因为……
And they they wanna probably put like, even if they're they have a $100 or a thousand dollars, they might wanna put 10% of that into the S and P five hundred or Coinbase stock or whatever, Nvidia, whatever, and they can't do that because But
他们可以使用价格选择工具。
they can use price picks.
他们可以用其他一些方式。
They could use some other thing.
不行。
No.
我喜欢价格选择工具。
And I I like price picks.
我用Price Picks来赌尼克斯队的串关投注。
I use price picks to bet on Knicks parlays.
但他们最终还是把钱花在别的地方，为什么不能呢？如果他们想赌尼克斯队，没问题；去拉斯维加斯也行，或者参加扑克锦标赛也行。
But they they wind up putting it somewhere else, and why not being able to you know, if they wanna bet on the Knicks, that's fine, but or go to Vegas, that's fine too, and play in a poker tournament.
是的，也许他们因为人在人力资源部门，听说了这家公司LinkedIn。
Yeah, maybe they hear about this company LinkedIn because they work in the HR department.
对。
Yeah.
人力资源部门的每个人都对它兴奋不已。
And everyone in the HR department's over the moon about it.
那些在人力资源部门拿着7.5万美元薪水的普通员工，最清楚下一个爆款产品会是什么。
That rank and file 75 k person working in HR, they understand what the next big product will be.
他们会知道Indeed或LinkedIn会成功，只需一千美元就能下一场改变人生的投资。
They'll know Indeed or LinkedIn's gonna work, and they can make a life changing bet with just a thousand dollars.
他们能获得一千倍的回报。
They make it a thousand x return.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这也涉及金融素养的成分。
I mean, there's a financial literacy component to this as well.
我认为，实际上AI代理现在变得非常出色了。
I think actually the AI's agents are now getting really good.
我们已经将其集成到Coinbase应用中。
We've integrated one into Coinbase app.
它能教人们了解美元成本平均法和税务损失收割。
It can kind of teach people about dollar cost averaging and, you know, tax loss harvesting.
所以，金融教育确实是其中一部分，但同时，让我们为他们提供高质量的投资机会，这就像帮助人们摆脱贫困一样。
So there's a the financial educate literacy is a is a part of it, but then, yeah, let's make high quality investments available to them and democ it's just like lifting people out of poverty.
太棒了。
It's great.
我的意思是，你考虑的是整个全球，但单就美国而言，很多人不满的、我们经常讨论的话题就是社会主义的兴起，嗯。
I mean, you're thinking about the whole globe, but just thinking in The United States, a lot of what people are upset about and the topic we've been talking about a lot is the rise of socialism in Mhmm.
特别是纽约和加利福尼亚。
New York specifically, California.
我不确定你是否还是当地居民。
I'm not sure if you're still a resident.
我不会让你为难的。
I won't put you on the spot here.
但我们在考虑各种选择。
But Considering options.
所谓考虑，就是我们都在考虑。
Considering mean As we all are.
我三年前搬到了奥斯汀。
I two years ago, I moved to three years ago, I moved to Austin.
我曾经
I was
我真的受够了。
like, I'm done.
我只是觉得社会问题太多了，你知道的，我已经看到了苗头。
I just the social issues and, you know, I saw the writing on the wall.
我的意思是，我真的觉得加州有可能破产，我之前在
I mean, I actually think there's a chance that that California goes bankrupt, and I said that on
播客上说过。
the podcast.
我只是觉得这一切正朝着资不抵债的方向发展。
I just this feels like it's trending towards insolvency.
我从没想过他们会推行财富税，直接没收人们的资产。
I never thought they would get to the wealth tax of just seizing people's assets.
是的。
Yeah.
你对这一切怎么看？
What's your take on all that?
今天早上我读到一篇文章，说实际上已经离开的人——根据我的估计，大约有20%的亿万富翁已经离开了加州，这已经造成了高达一百亿美元的税收缺口。
So I was reading something this morning which said that actually just the people who've already left, which is probably like my my estimates would probably be 20% of the billionaires have already left in California, that it's already created a negative 10,000,000,000 tax hole.
哇哦。
Woah.
即使算上他们希望从留下的人身上筹集到的金额。
Even if even with the amount that they hope to raise from the people who stay.
是的。
Yeah.
这是我见过的最大规模的逃亡现象之一。
So it's one of the biggest cell phones I've ever seen.
这是一场灾难。
It's a disaster.
你知道，我其实很矛盾，因为这里总有一个关于‘发声’还是‘退出’的问题。
And I you know, I'm torn actually because part there's always kind of this question of voice or exit.
对吧？
Right?
就像这样，是的。
Like Yeah.
发声，你会尝试从内部改善吗？
Voice, do you try to fix it from within?
离开，你会选择走吗？
Exit, do you leave?
就像你做的那样。
Like you did.
我觉得这些激励机制很奇怪，一方面，我真的很喜欢加州，但另一方面，这感觉就像一段虐待关系。
And I think the incentives are strange because on the one hand, like, I love California, but on the other hand, it's been kind of a it's like an abusive relationship.
你知道的？
You know?
它总是一而再、再而三地出问题。
It just keeps coming back with another thing and another thing.
在某些方面，如果你决定离开，那时你就没什么动力再去试图改善它了。
And in some ways, like, if you do make the decision to leave, you don't have really much incentive to try to fix it at that point.
那时你实际上希望把大量建筑商和顶尖人才从加州吸引出来，全部迁移到一个对我们和企业更友好的新地方。
You you actually wanna get a lot of the the builders and the top talent out of California at that point and just all resettle in a new place that that is welcoming to us and businesses.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为人们并不理解，对于那些已经在全球运营的特定阶层的人来说，这有多容易。
I don't think people understand how easy it is for somebody who's in a certain strata to is already operating globally.
我每年都会飞往四个不同的大洲，你知道，我在哪里其实无所谓。
I'm on planes and on four different continents every year, you know, like, it doesn't matter where I am.
嗯。
Mhmm.
重要的是我妻子和孩子开心，他们喜欢我们住的地方，我们也喜欢奥斯汀。
It matters my wife and my kids are happy and they love the place we live and we love Austin.
我所看到的，你在Coinbase面对员工和团队时最棘手的问题之一，就是他们的住房成本。
And then the thing I've seen, the probably one of the hardest thing you had to deal with with your employees and your team at Coinbase is the price of their housing.
你有多少次试图招募别人来加州？
Like, many times did you try to recruit somebody to come to California?
是的。
Yeah.
就像一个四口之家，他们需要私立学校，需要房子，你就会想，天哪。
And it's like a family of, you know, four, and they need private school, they need a house, and you're like, oh my god.
他们在这里的开销会是多少？
What is their nut gonna be here?
是的。
Yeah.
抓住了他们的开销。
Caught my their their nut.
我喜欢这个说法。
I love that expression.
有一集《南方公园》讲的就是这个，不过没错，你说得对。
So there was a great South Park episode on that, but yeah, I mean, you're right.
每当我们向加州的人，或者像New Limit这样的生物科技公司的人提供职位时，这都是一个主要障碍，他们总会说：‘我的生活成本会翻倍，你们得给我加薪。’
That's a major barrier whenever we make an offer to somebody in California, you know, or for New Limit, the biotech company, like, that's always like, well, my cost of living is gonna double, like, you need to pay me more.
是的。
Yeah.
所以成本越来越高了。
So it's getting expensive.
最终这些成本都会转嫁到你这个企业主身上。
It winds up flowing through to you, the business owner.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It does.
我的意思是，旧金山曾经实施过一种针对金融服务公司的基于收入的税收，税率非常高。
I mean, San Francisco had this kind of like revenue based tax that was very punitive on financial services companies.
Stripe，没错。
Stripe Yep.
Stripe在那之后就搬走了。
Stripe moved out when that happened.
是的。
I Yeah.
我觉得马克·贝尼奥夫可能后悔支持了这项政策。
Think Mark Benioff regrets supporting that one.
是的。
Yeah.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
是的。
Yeah.
但公平地说，他确实想资助这个无家可归者产业体系，但该措施在减少无家可归者数量上完全无效，因为他们根本不是无家可归。
But in fairness, he did wanna finance the homeless industrial complex, has been completely ineffective in reducing the number of homeless individuals because they're not homeless.
他们吸毒成瘾。
They're addicted to drugs.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
一个家并不能解决这个问题。
A home doesn't help that problem.
没错。
Exactly.
我的意思是，我知道我这是对牛弹琴，但确实，如果人们觉得这些钱花得有效，他们可能会更愿意缴纳更高的税款。但过去十年加州的历史是：预算大幅增加，而服务却变得更差。
I mean, I know I'm I'm preaching to the choir here, but, yeah, I I think people would have a lot more tolerance to pay higher taxes if they felt like it was working, but the history of the last ten years in California is that the budget has gone up dramatically and the services have gotten worse.
这实际上是在制造错误的激励。
It's like, it's actually creating the wrong incentives.
比如，我们对无家可归问题投入越多，无家可归的人就越多，更别提其中的浪费和欺诈了，天哪。
Like, the more serve the more money we spend on homelessness, the more homeless people are so, you know, and then the waste and fraud, oh my gosh.
你们啊
You guys
令人震惊。
Mind blowing.
尼克·谢里尔之类的。
Nick Shirley and all that.
我觉得
I think
所以，我的意思是，我们能推测加利福尼亚的滥用程度有多严重吗？
So What do you what I mean, what could we even guess is the level of abuse in California?
确实是。
It's Yeah.
这会让明尼苏达州相形见绌。
Gonna it's gonna make Minnesota look like peanuts.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个庞大的经济体，仅旧金山就有众多非政府组织和 homeless 组织拿走了数亿美元。
It's such a big economy with so many NGOs and so many homeless organizations taking down hundreds of millions of dollars in San Francisco alone.
是的。
Yeah.
所以跟大家说说你的副业，你那家别的公司。
So tell everybody about the the side hustle, your your other company.
是的。
Yeah.
你正在和
You're working with
哦，是生物科技公司吗？
Oh, the biotech?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
当Coinbase在2021年上市时，你知道，我从中获得了一些流动性资金，我仔细考虑了一下，然后想，好吧。
Well, when Coinbase went public in 2021, you know, I got some liquidity from that, and I just I thought it through, and I was like, alright.
我想继续担任Coinbase的首席执行官。
I wanna be CEO continue to be CEO of Coinbase.
担任一家上市公司的CEO是非常酷的事，我觉得我们才刚刚踏上旅程。
Being a public company CEO is a really cool thing where I just feel like we're at the beginning of our journey.
但我也觉得，我想用一部分资金去押注一些重大的机会。
But I also felt like I wanted to start to use some of that capital to go after these, like, big bets.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
实际上，我有点受到马斯克的启发。
I was kinda a little inspired by Elon, actually.
你想啊，他先做了PayPal和X，然后又进入了原子世界，而不是比特世界。
Think, you know, he did the thing with PayPal and X, and and then, you know, he went into these, like, the world of atoms, not bits.
对吧？
Right?
实际上，软件更宽容一些。
It's actually like and software is more forgiving.
初创公司都很艰难，但软件行业稍微宽容一些，因为你的利润率更高。
Startups are all hard, but software is a little more forgiving because you have higher margins.
原子世界的容错率要低得多。
The world of atoms is much less forgiving.
所以，我幸运地遇到了一些非常了不起的联合创始人，他们围绕长寿领域的这个想法聚在一起，其背后的基础科学被称为表观遗传重编程。
So, anyway, I was lucky enough to meet some really amazing cofounders that came together with this idea in the longevity space and it's called you know, there's the fundamental science behind it is called epigenetic reprogramming.
你可以重编程你的细胞，让它们恢复年轻时的功能。
It's sort of you can reprogram your cells to restore function they had when they were younger.
当时有一些非常酷的研究正在进行。
There was some really cool research being done.
我举办了几场晚餐会。
I hosted a couple dinners.
总之，我决定投资这些家伙，现在也有很多其他人参与投资，我也是董事会成员。
Anyway, decided to fund these guys and a bunch of other people have invested now, and I'm a board member.
我一直在以一些小的方式帮助他们
I've been helping them in in small And
它的名字是什么？
the name of it is?
New Limits。
New Limits.
是的。
Yes.
New
New
Limits。
Limits.
他们已经取得了惊人的进展。
So they've been incredible progress.
他们什么时候会有产品？
It's When will they have a product?
这感觉像是二十年的投资，而不是两年
This feels like a twenty year investment, not a two
或五年。
or five.
是的。
Yeah.
生物技术确实进展较慢，但它的速度比我预期的要快。
Well, biotech does move more slowly, but it's moved faster than I would have thought.
我原本以为这会是五年纯基础研究。
I thought this was gonna be like five years of just basic research.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但结果发现，在头两三年内，他们就已经成功证明了可以将人类细胞重编程，使其恢复年轻时的功能。
But it turned out actually within the first two or three years, they were able to successfully demonstrate reprogramming of human cells to distort function they had when they were younger.
第一个药物候选者可能明年就会进入临床试验，太棒了。
And the first drug candidate is probably gonna go into clinical trials next so Amazing.
是的。
Yeah.
这非常有成就感。
That's super rewarding.
五分钟，是的。
Five minutes, yeah.
好的，
Okay,
很好。
great.
所以
So
从达沃斯回来后，你对世界现状有何看法？
coming out of Davos, what's your take on the state of the world?
每个人到这里来时，似乎都觉得ESG、DEI、Kumbaya，是的。
Everybody, when they get here, seems to it seems like the ESG, DEI, Kumbaya Yeah.
过去一两年，重点已经转向了实实在在的交易和合作，无论是国家之间还是企业之间。
Stuff has switched in the last year or two to, you know, brass tacks, deal making, whether it's between countries and businesses.
这正在变成一场商业会议，而以前每个人都在街头、在家中告诉我，情况不是这样的。
Like, this is turning into a business conference that used to be this is what everybody's telling me on the streets in in the, you know, in the houses.
嗯。
Mhmm.
现在一切都围绕着商业了。
It's it's about business now.
而在边缘地带，还残留着全球化与民族主义的表象。
And on the margins, there's a patina of, you know, globalization versus nationalism.
你和监管机构、政府工作人员交谈时，对2026年世界现状有什么看法？
What's your take on the state of the world in 2026 talking to regulators, talking to, you know, people who work in government?
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得你说得对。
I think you're right.
我的意思是，我以前只去过一次达沃斯，是的。
I mean, I've only been at Davos once before Yeah.
但当时感觉更像是我们在讨论如何建立一个全球政府。
But it did feel more, you know, how do we make a global government?
我们该如何推动大量的ESG和DEI？
How do we do lots of ESG and DEI?
但这些现在根本不是人们讨论的重点。
And that's really not what anyone's talking about now.
我认为部分原因是因为拉里·芬克上任，成为新的领导者，差不多是这样。
I think partially it's because of Larry Fink coming in the new leader, you know, more or less.
我也觉得这是因为唐纳德·特朗普。
And I also think it's because of Donald Trump.
我的意思是，确实如此。
I mean Yeah.
他彻底搅动了局面。
He shook it up.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，美国在GDP增长、低通胀以及商业环境方面所展现的数据，让人不禁想，我们如何才能实现共赢？
Like, the numbers that The United States is putting up in terms of GDP growth and low inflation and just that business environment, it's like, hey, how do we all win?
这才是为社会每个人创造繁荣的方式。
That's how you create prosperity for everyone in society.
我确实认为这实际上对所有人都有利，你知道，即使社会中最贫穷的人，在经济自由度高的国家里也过得最好。
I do think it actually benefits everyone, like, you know, even the poorest people in society are they do the best in high economic freedom countries that are anyway
增长能解决很多问题。
Growth solves a lot of problems.
确实如此。
It does.
确实如此。
It does.
我的意思是，从客观角度来看，这种增长堪称卓越。
I mean, and the growth is objectively, calling balls and strikes, spectacular.
我们从未见过这样的情况。
We have not seen Mhmm.
自从我们在疫情期间注入了大量资金并印了这么多美元以来，GDP达到了这个水平。
This level of GDP since we pumped a bunch of money and printed a bunch of dollars during COVID.
是的。
Like Yeah.
5.6%的GDP相当惊人。
5.6 GDP is pretty spectacular.
希望这种势头能持续下去。
Let's hope it keeps up.
失业率也很合理。
Unemployment, very reasonable.
4.6%，是我们这一代人最低的。
4.6, lowest of our lifetime.
我觉得最低曾降到过4.3%。
I think 4.3 was the lowest it hit.
通胀方面，确实更接近3%而不是2%，但平均下来实际是2.8%、2.9%左右。
Inflation, yeah, closer to three than two, but, you know, the actual average has been, like, 2.8, 2.9.
所以目标是2%。
So the two is the target.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们目前正好在平均水平，还没达到目标，但我认为我们会达到的。
And so we're right around the average, not hitting the target yet, but I think we'll get there.
所以，是的，看起来好像……
So, yeah, it seems like
经济增长并非来自政府支出。
Growth does not come from government spending.
对吧？
Right?
这正是凯恩斯主义经济论点的核心，而我认为这个观点基本上是错误的。
That's like the key that this is this Keynesian economic argument that I think is basically wrong.
经济增长来自于放松监管、获得低成本能源，让私营市场得以发展。
Like, growth comes from having, like, deregulation, having low cost energy, allow the private markets to bill.
让他们放手干。
Let them cook.
明确哪些可以做、哪些不可以做，然后创造一个公平的竞争环境。
And have clear rules about what's allowed and not, and then create a level playing field.
每个人都参与竞争，消费者受益，企业受益，所有员工和股东都受益，资本主义简直就是最大的双赢，你知道吗？最近有人就对此发表了一番精彩的抨击。
Everyone competes, the consumer benefits, the the companies benefit, all the employees, the shareholders, like, capitalism is like the biggest win win, you know, like someone had a great rant about that recently.
是的。
Yeah.
我们看到美国的私营企业正在蓬勃发展。
And so we're seeing the private companies in The United States really cook.
太棒了。
It's great.
没错。
Right.
如果你在蓬勃发展，就会创造更多就业机会， hopefully，缴纳更多税收，这一切都会让经济步入良性循环。
And if you're cooking, you create more jobs, hopefully, pay more taxes, all that just starts the cycle in the right direction.
我来谈谈AI吧。
How do you I'll end on AI.
播客上对这个话题争论很大。
Big debate on the pod.
你有一阵子没和我们四个人一起上了，但要是有人生病了，我们肯定会把你排进来。
You haven't been on with the four of us in a while, but when somebody gets sick, we'll definitely rotate you in.
每次你上节目，我们四人组都特别受欢迎。
Everybody loves when you are on, like, the the quartet.
你就像
You're you're like
人气明星。
a fan favorite.
我很开心
I'm happy
的。
to.
但我很好奇你对人工智能和就业替代有什么看法。
But I'm curious what you think about AI and job displacement.
萨克斯和我一直在争论这个问题。
Sax and I have been debating this.
这种情况什么时候才会到来？
When is it gonna be here?
它已经来了吗？
Is it here?
年轻人找不到工作，但总体失业率仍然很低。
Young people can't find jobs, but we're still at pretty low unemployment rate overall.
但埃隆和伯尼·桑德斯的立场是一致的。
But then Elon's position and Bernie Sanders' position is in sync.
嘿。
Hey.
听我说。
Listen.
这将导致大量工作岗位的流失。
It's gonna be a lot of job displacement.
那你对此怎么看？
So how do you think about it?
显然，亚马逊也是我关注的对象，因为在乐观机器人出租车和Waymo的时代，还让人去开车或打包包裹，这听起来很荒谬。
Obviously, Amazon also is the one I'm watching because the idea that somebody's gonna drive packages or pack packages in the age of optimists Robotaxi and Waymo sounds crazy.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
所以这些工作正在消失。
So those jobs are going away.
你如何看待工作岗位的流失？在Coinbase，你看到最早一批AI员工的情况是怎样的？
How do you think about job displacement, and what are you seeing with the most AI first employees in Coinbase?
是的。
Yeah.
简单来说，我认为加密货币和人工智能是当今世界最重要的两大技术趋势，而且很酷的是，大多数人没意识到它们最终会融合，因为AI代理需要完成工作，而它们必须进行支付。
Well, just zooming out a second, I think, like, crypto and AI are the two most important technology trends happening in the world, and what's cool most people don't realize actually they're gonna come together because AI agents need to get work done and they have to do payments.
嗯。
Mhmm.
整个传统金融体系都是建立在了解每个产品背后都是真实人类的基础上，也就是了解你的客户。
And the whole traditional financial system is built around kind of knowing you're a human behind every product within upload your Oh, know your customer.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以我认为，AI代理将会使用稳定币和加密货币钱包。
So AI agents, I think, are gonna use Stablecoins and wallet crypto wallets
了解你的代理？
Know your agent?
嗯，我甚至不确定你是否需要
Well, I don't even know if you need
去了解这些，它只是，是的。
to know that any of the it's just but yeah.
无论如何，这是我们试图推动的重要趋势之一。
Anyway, that's one of the important trends that we're trying to help happen.
关于工作岗位的取代，我不确定。
In terms of job displacement, I don't know.
也许我有点技术乐观主义，但我觉得，如果你回看十九世纪初，当时大约80%的美国人口都在从事农业。
I I maybe this is a bit of a techno optimist take, but I actually think, know, if you go back and look at, the '19 early nineteen hundreds, I think it was, like, 80% of The US population was in was working in agriculture.
是的。
Yeah.
那时候农业是繁重的体力劳动，而当农业实现自动化后，现在只有大约3%的劳动力从事农业。
And so that's like hard manual labor out in the fields, and when agriculture got automated, you know, now it's like 3% or something of the workforce working agriculture.
这花了三十年时间。
Would happened over thirty years.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为他们会看着你我这样的工作，比如我们在达沃斯这里进行一场有趣的对话。
And so I think they would look at what you and I do for a living, like, we're just having a cool conversation in Davos, talking.
他们会说，这根本不算正经工作。
They'd be like, that's not a real job.
真正的工种应该是像在田里干体力活那样。
Like, real job is like manual labor in the fields.
对吧。
Right.
你总是好像在度假，但我们却认为这是一份工作。
You just you're on vacation all the time, but we we think of it as a job.
你知道，那些整天敲键盘的人，却能坐在空调房里之类的。
You know, people who are like typing on a keyboard all but you get to sit in an air conditioned office or whatever.
这肯定很有压力。
It's stressful, that's for sure.
可能会有压力，但确实如此。
It can be stressful, but Yeah.
我只是觉得，与其在烈日下干挖沟这种累死人的体力活，我宁愿做这个。
That's just I'd rather be doing that than be doing back breaking labor in the sun digging a ditch or something.
对吧？
Right?
所以我认为，如果这种工作替代意味着人们能从事新型工作和新类型的职业，那其实并不是坏事。
So I think that job displacement is like not a bad thing actually if it means that people can do new kinds of work and new kinds of job.
那会有一个过渡期吗？
Now is there gonna be a transition period?
会的。
Yes.
基本上，我认为如果人工智能的发展如我们所有人预期的那样，出现机器人和大量工作被替代，那意味着我们将进入一个更加富足的世界，人们会从事像在YouTube上直播打游戏之类的工作。
Basically, I think if the AI plays out as we all think it will with robots and a lot of there will be job displacement, but it means that we'll be in a world of more abundance and people are gonna have jobs that's that's like they're streaming on video games on YouTube or whatever.
我不知道具体会是什么，但他们会思考未来。
Like, I don't know what it's gonna be, but they'll think about the future.
他们会思考伟大的哲学，你知道，可能会写出一些哲学著作，是的。
They'll think about like great philosophy, you know, philosophical works might be written Yeah.
因为我们不必再被装箱这种枯燥的工作所累。
Because we don't have to burden ourselves with like the tedium of packing boxes.
所以从根本上说，我是个乐观主义者，我认为这会是好事。
So I I'm basically an optimist on I think it'll be good.
我也对这件事相当乐观。
I'm pretty optimist about it as well.
我只是看了自动驾驶出租车的演示，是的。
I just having watched the robo taxi self driving thing Yeah.
看着它进步的速度，再加上过去十二年近距离观察优步的发展，嗯。
And just watching the velocity that it's getting better and having watched the Uber story up close for twelve years Mhmm.
我觉得，是的，六年内就会发生。
I'm like, yeah, that's gonna happen in six.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得这就像，它只是会
I think it's just like the it's gonna just
自动驾驶？
Self driving?
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说，感觉是这样。
It feels to me.
我开始在现实中看到的是，在武汉和北京，人们正在抗议，他们说，我们只会发放一定数量的自动驾驶许可证。
And the thing I'm starting to see in the field is you have in Wuhan there and and Beijing, they're having protests, and they're saying, well, we're just gonna give out a certain number of self driving license.
我们要控制它。
We're gonna contain it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后在波士顿、一些地方和加州，他们却说，嘿。
And then you have Boston and a couple and California now, they're saying, hey.
听好了。
Listen.
我们只会允许一定数量的自动驾驶出租车。
We're we're we're only gonna allow a certain number of robotaxis.
波士顿那边说：我们不让你在这里运营这些车。
Boston's like, we're not gonna let you have them here.
我们要保护这些工作岗位。
We're gonna protect these jobs.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我认为，这将成为未来几年我们即将面临的那种典型的阶级性争论之一。
So this is gonna become, I think, one of these very class, you know, debates we're gonna have over the coming years.
但公司里的员工怎么办？
But what about employees in the company?
你们现在的员工人数和几年前一样多。
You have the same number of employees as you had a couple years ago.
你们可能之前为了增长而超额招聘了。
You overhired for a bit maybe or hiring for growth.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那么，你是如何看待招聘、招聘并培训年轻人， versus 直接自动化或使用这些人工智能的呢？
Now how do you think about hiring versus hiring and training young people versus just automating stuff or just having those AI?
你们团队中一定有一些人在使用 Claude CoWork 或 Sure 这类工具吧。
You must have some people on the staff who are using Claude CoWork or Sure.
某种工具，让他们成了十倍效率的知识工作者。
Something, and they're just like 10 x knowledge workers.
开发者很明显，但是
Developers are obvious, but
是的。
Yeah.
跟我聊聊知识工作者，以及你看到你们最前沿的 AI 驱动员工有哪些变化。
Talk to me about knowledge workers and what you're seeing with your most AI first employees.
是的。
Yeah.
过去一年我们大力推动的一件事是，我们部署了自己内部托管的AI模型，并连接了所有数据源。
So one of the big pushes we made in the last year was we got our own internal hosted AI model that was connected to all of our data sources.
对吧？
Right?
比如每一条Slack消息、每一个Google文档、每一个Salesforce数据、Confluence，你知道的。
So it's like every Slack message, every Google Doc, every Salesforce data, Confluence, you know.
现在这些全都连接在一起，数据被统一聚合，你可以向这些智能体提问，每个团队都在用它，抱歉，我说的是法律团队。
So now this is all linked up in one like, the data is all aggregated and you can ask these agents so every team's legaling it sorry.
每个团队都在使用它。
Every team is using it.
法律、财务，所有部门都用它来
Legal, finance, everything just to
回答Coinbase的神谕。
answer Oracle of Coinbase.
是的。
Yeah.
我开始用它来提问，这不仅仅是简单地让它帮我写备忘录之类的东西。
And I've started to ask it really it's not just like prompting it, hey, can you write this kind of memo for me or something.
现在，作为CEO，我会问这些AI代理：公司里有哪些我可能不知道的重要情况？
It's like I'm asking these AI agents now, as CEO, like, what should I be aware of in the company that I might not be aware of?
它会告诉我：你知道吗？这个团队在战略上其实存在分歧。
And it'll tell me, did you know that, like, there's actually disagreement on this team about the strategy?
我当时说：真的，我之前完全不知道。
And I was like, actually, I didn't know that.
是的。
Yes.
因为它能阅读每一条Slack消息和每一个Google文档。
Because it can read every Slack message in every every Google Doc.
然后，我开始这样引导它：实际上，我董事会的Toby说，这就像他所说的‘反向提问’。
And then, I've been prompting it like actually, Toby on my board, he said this is like he's calling it reverse prompting.
Shopify。
Shopify.
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
他说这就像反向提示。
He he said this is like reverse prompting.
所以，你不是告诉AI代理你想做什么，而是问它你应该更多地思考什么。
So instead of telling the AI agent what you want to do, you ask it what you should be thinking more about.
对。
Right.
它就像一个导师。
It's a mentor.
是的
Yeah.
这就像一个教练。
It's It's a coach.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，怎样才能让我成为一个更好的首席执行官？
Like, what could make me a better CEO?
它会说：嗯，我观察了你上个季度的时间分配情况，你原本计划这样安排时间，但实际上你有32%的时间花在了这件事上，而不是20%。
And it's like, well, noticed I looked at all how you spent your time in the last quarter, and here's how you said that you wanted to spend it, but you actually spent like 32% of your time on this instead of 20.
我还问过它其他问题，比如：过去一年里，我改变主意最多的是什么？
And it'll I've asked it other questions like, you know, what's the thing that I changed my mind on the most over the last year?
类似这样的问题。
Things like that.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
它现在正逐渐变成一种方式：主动提醒你该思考哪些信息，而不是反过来。
It's been it's now becoming like, it'll it'll like prompt you with information you should be thinking about instead of the other way around.
我最近用了这个，不知道你有没有试过 Claude Cowork。
I recently did this and I don't know if you played with Claude Cowork yet.
他们刚推出的时候，你有这样用过吗？
Have you played with it this way when they came out?
用过啊，有 Claude Opus 4.5 之类的。
Played with there's Claude Opus 4.5 or something.
是的。
Yeah.
但还有一个叫 Cowork 的功能，就像你描述的那样，你告诉它你想要做什么，嗯。
But there's Cowork which is kind of like you describe describe what what you you wanna do Mhmm.
作为知识工作者，它会开始帮你构建出来。
As a knowledge worker and it starts to build it.
所以你不需要做那种随意编码，说‘嘿，帮我写个代码’，而是直接描述你希望最终的应用和结果是什么。
So instead of doing vibe coding and saying, hey, wanna write code for this, you just describe like, what do you want the end application and the result to be?
然后它就像一个向导一样，一步步带你完成。
And then it kinda like a wizard kinda takes you through it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这挺吓人的，因为我把我的Notion和它连接了，我的Slack也连上了。
It's pretty scary because I connected my Notion to it, my Slack to it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还有我的Google文档，它也做了类似的事情。
And my Google Docs, and it did the same type of thing.
我说：告诉我关于我的事。
I was like, tell me about myself.
它说：哇。
And it was like, woah.
你应该多花点时间在那些取得成功的创始人身上，而不是更多地关注你的内部团队。
You need to spend more time with your founders that are winning as opposed to more time with your internal team.
分析你的团队真的很有意思，我觉得这将是未来的趋势。
It was really interesting to analyze your your teams, and I think that's gonna be like the future of this.
好的。
Alright.
听好了，布莱恩，你还有很多会议要参加。
Listen, Brian, you got a lot more meetings to do.
谢谢你来参加这个节目。
Thanks for coming on the program.
我非常兴奋，因为我的嘉宾在ChatGPT发布前六七年就开始研发AI芯片了。
I'm thrilled because my guest started building AI chips seven six, seven years, six, seven years before ChatGPT was launched.
安德鲁·费尔德曼是Cerebras Systems的首席执行官，他们正在研发晶圆级引擎（WSE）。
Andrew Feldman is, of course, the CEO of Cerebras Systems, and they are building Wafer Scale engine, WSE.
是的。
Yep.
你们正在研发的这种芯片是用于推理的吗？
That's the category of chips you're working on, and they're for inference?
是用于推理，还是用于训练？
For inference or for training?
两者都是。
Both.
或者用于训练。
Or for training.
或者两者都是。
Or both.
用于训练。
For training.
你随身带了一个。
And you have one with you.
是的，我带了。
I do.
这是一台晶圆级引擎。
So here is a wafer scale engine.
记住，通常芯片的大小像邮票一样。
Remember, usually chips are the size of a postage stamp.
是的
Yeah.
所以这个芯片比B200大约大56倍。
And so this is, say, 56 times larger than a b 200.
哇。
Wow.
它是一个包含4万亿个晶体管的芯片。
And it's a 4,000,000,000,000 transistor part.
对于AI工作来说，大芯片能处理更多信息，并在更短时间内得出结果。
And for AI work, big chips process more information, and they deliver results in less time.
因此，你的查询能更快得到结果。
So you can get faster results for your your query.
那么，如今典型的系统成本是多少？它与H100、H200相比竞争力如何？
And what does that cost for the typical system today, and how does it compete with, the h 100, 200?
嗯，第一个芯片的成本对我来说是5亿美元。
Well, the first one cost us half 1,000,000,000 to me.
是的。
Yes.
我听说第一个是最贵的。
First one I've heard is the most expensive.
结果发现第一个才是关键。
Turns out the first one's the kicker.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
这些是作为一个系统提供的。
These come in a system.
明白吗？
Alright?
我们可以提供本地部署的系统，是的。
And we can deliver the system on premise Yep.
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