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CZ，欢迎来到《All In》播客。
CZ, welcome to the All In podcast.
嗯，谢谢你们邀请我来。
Well, thanks for having me here.
见到你真的非常棒。
It's really, really great to see you.
这是我的荣幸。
It's a pleasure.
我想从头说起
I wanna go all the way back
因为我觉得很多人其实并不了解你的背景，而他们本应更了解。
to the beginning because I think a lot of people don't really know your background the way that they probably should.
我特别关心的是你早年在加拿大的经历，这和我的经历非常相似。
The part of the background that I really care about is there's parts of your early journey in Canada, which is very similar to mine.
你曾在麦当劳工作过。
You worked at McDonald's.
我曾在汉堡王工作。
I worked at Burger King.
好的。
Okay.
但在那之前，你的父母正好在天安门事件前后从中国移民了。
But before that, your parents were able to emigrate from China right around Tiananmen Square.
对吧？
Right?
我父亲1984年去加拿大留学。
My father went to Canada to study in 1984.
那是在天安门事件五年前。
That's five years before Tiananmen Square.
那是怎么发生的？
How did that come about?
所以你父亲去了加拿大之后就留在那里了吗？
So your father stayed in Canada once he went there or no?
他基本上每年会来看我们两次，但大多数时间他都在加拿大。
He he would he would visit us every twice a year, basically, but he would most of the time, he was in Canada.
对。
And yeah.
所以他在中国是老师吗？
So And he was a teacher in China?
他是一位教师，教授。
He was a teacher professor.
他在中国是一名教授。
He he was a professor in China.
然后他先去多伦多大学参加了一个交流项目。
And then he went to do a exchange program in University of Toronto first.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
几年后，他搬到了加拿大温哥华的不列颠哥伦比亚大学（UBC）。
And then a couple years later, he moved to UBC, University of British British Columbia in Vancouver.
然后他就待在那里了。
And then he was there.
我们当时在申请，那时候拿到护照真的很难。
We were applying back back then, it's actually very difficult to get a passport.
拿到护照要花三四年时间。
It takes like three or four years to get a passport.
我们大约在1985年开始申请。
We started applying in nineteen eighty five ish.
花了两三年才拿到护照。
It took like two, three years to get a passport.
然后我得去弄一个
And then I have to get a
意思是，中国护照吗？
pass Meaning a Chinese passport?
中国护照。
A Chinese passport.
是的。
Yeah.
然后，申请签证又得花上好几年。
So and then it takes like another few years to get a visa.
那时候，整个流程就是这么慢。
Like, that's just how long the process takes back then.
然后，是的。
And then yeah.
所以我们是在1989年之后不久拿到的。
So we got it shortly after eighteen nineteen eighty nine.
回首往事，这几乎像是命运的安排。
When you look back, it almost seems fortuitous.
难道没有一种情况是，天安门事件之后，他们干脆全面叫停，说：好吧。
Isn't there a version where post Tiananmen, they kind of just shut everything down and say, okay.
我们干脆重新来过，也许就不会批准签证了？
Let's just reset and then maybe they wouldn't have approved the visa?
或者
Or
不。
No.
实际上，在那之后，签证反而变得更容易了。
Actually, after that, the visa got easier.
护照，嗯，那个变得更难了。
The passports, like, that got harder.
所以他们不再签发新护照了。
So they they don't they no longer issued new passport.
也就是说，重新签发新护照变得更困难了。
Like, the reissue of new passports got harder.
但我们很幸运。
But we we were lucky.
所以我们拿到了护照，大概在那之前一年左右，然后我们就在等签证。
So we got the passports, like, you know, like, maybe a year before that, and then we're waiting for the visa.
然后，之后签证就变容易了。
And then afterwards, the visa got easier.
所以某种程度上，这实际上帮我们拿到了签证，哇。
So in some ways, that actually kinda helped us to get to get the visa Wow.
你知道的，以一种非常奇怪的方式。
You know, in some really weird way.
那个事件有没有
Did that event
以任何方式影响了你的看法，还是根本没有？
shape your perspective in any way, shape, or form, or not really?
你当时太小了吗？还是不是？
Were you too young or no?
你当时多大？
You were what?
12岁？
12?
我当时12岁。
I was 12.
所以我认为，有意识地来说，没有。
So I think consciously, no.
这件事并没有对我产生多大影响。
This it didn't it didn't change me that much.
但潜意识里，我觉得当时有一些关于民主与专制的讨论，确实有过一些讨论。
But I subconsciously, think, know, there were discussions about, you know, democracy versus so there's some discussions.
那时我其实住在大学校园里。
I was actually living on a university campus back then.
中国科学技术大学是中国顶尖的四所大学之一。
The China the Chinese the China Science and Technology University is one of the top four universities in China.
所以大学里有很多学生在讨论，他们比我大七到九岁左右。
So there were a lot of discussions among the university students, which were older like, which were probably seven to nine years older than me.
确实有一些讨论，但我当时才12岁。
So there were some discussions, but I'm I was 12.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
我当时并没有真正意识到，但我想潜意识里可能产生了一些影响。
I wasn't really clued into it, but I think subconsciously, it may have some kind of a subconscious impact.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你搬到温哥华时感觉怎么样？
And what was it like when you you moved to Vancouver?
我搬到了吴哥。
I moved to Angkor.
对。
Yeah.
所以你抵达了不列颠哥伦比亚省，是吧。
So you land in British Columbia Yep.
在温哥华。
In Vancouver.
这感觉像是完全不同的
It's like a different it's
就是不一样。
just different.
非常不同。
It's very different.
非常不同。
It's very different.
这完全是另一个国家。
It's just a completely new country.
然后
And then
你当时会说英语吗？
Did you know English at all or no?
我在高中学了几年英语，但说实话，我一点都不流利。
I studied English for, like, couple years in high e school, but, you know, I was not fluent at all.
但没错，温哥华很棒。
But, yeah, Vancouver's great.
加拿大呢，你知道的，绿意盎然，有很多开阔空间。
Canada is, you know, nice green nice greenery, open space.
一切都挺好的，生活水平很高。
Everything's pretty the living standard's high.
一切都相当不错。
Everything's pretty pretty good.
一切都非常干净。
Everything's very clean.
水果都更大。
The fruits are bigger.
所以这是一个非常宜人的环境。
So it's just a really nice environment.
是的。
Yeah.
你父母在家庭团聚时都工作吗？
Did both your parents work when
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
家庭团聚时吗？
The family was reunited?
他们做什么工作？
What do they do?
我父亲当时是大学的助理教授。
So my father stayed was, like, assistant professor in the in the in the universe university.
他每个月能拿到一千加元，我不知道那叫什么。
He gets, like, a thousand Canadian dollars per month of, like, I don't know what you call it.
像助学金吗？
Like a stipend?
对，像助学金。
Like a stipend.
是的。
Yeah.
我们得到了一些非常便宜的教职员工住房，来自不列颠哥伦比亚大学的教职员工宿舍，所以我们住在校园里。
We get some, like, really low cost house housing, the the the faculty housing from UBC, so we lived on campus.
我们刚到加拿大的第三天，我妈妈就去了一家服装工厂工作，负责缝衣服。
We I think on the third day of our arrival in Canada, my mom went to a factory sewing factory to work, like sewing clothes.
她在中国是一名数学和历史老师，但她的英语说得不多。
She was a math and history teacher in China, but she doesn't speak that much English.
所以她无法找到同等水平的工作，只能在最低工资的工厂工作。
So she couldn't get the same level of jobs, and she basically can only work at a minimum wage factory.
是的。
Yeah.
她做了大约七到十年。
She did that for, like, seven, ten years.
是的。
And yeah.
所以她就在那里工作。
So she she she just worked there.
我妈妈在斯里兰卡是一名护士。
My mom was a nurse in Sri Lanka.
当我们移民并获得难民身份时，我父亲失业了。
And when we immigrated, when we got refugee status, my father was unemployed.
是的。
Yeah.
我妈妈成了一名保洁员。
And my mom became a housekeeper.
她就这样一直干，后来又当上了护士助理。
And that's what she did, and then she became like a nurse's aide.
我想当我14岁左右的时候，我找到了第一份工作。
And and then I think when I was like 14 is when I got my first job.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我大概在14岁或15岁时在麦康姆斯找到了第一份工作。
I got my first job at McCommons at I think it's 14 or 15.
我觉得是
I think it
应该是15岁。
was 15.
是的。
Yeah.
我们同龄，所以很可能当时是14岁。
We're the same age, so it it probably would have been 14.
现在我不记得了，你还记得当时不列颠哥伦比亚省的最低工资是多少吗？
Now I don't know what the do you remember what the minimum wage was in British Columbia at
那时候？
that time?
我记得。
I do.
最低工资是6美元，但麦当劳
The minimum wage was $6, but McDonald's
哦，这太不可思议了。
Oh, that's incredible.
在安大略省，最低工资是4.55美元。
In Ontario, it was $4.55.
但在麦当劳，他们只付4.50美元。
So but in McDonald's, they pay $4.50.
这低于最低工资。
That's below Minimum wage.
因为麦当劳不知怎么获得了某种特殊豁免，毕竟那里有很多年轻孩子工作。
Because the the McDonald's somehow had a, like, a special exemption because they a lot of young kids work there.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我想是在我十四岁生日那天我申请了那份工作。
So so I think it was on my fourteenth birthday that I applied for the job.
一周后，我就在那里煎汉堡了。
And then a week later, was flipping burgers there.
那是我第一份收入。
And it was the first income I had.
你并不是那种天赋异禀、整天24小时编程、学习计算机科学的神童吧？
You're not like this precocious technical wonder kid who's coding twenty four seven and learning computer science, or were you?
不是。
No.
我不会把自己描述成那样的人。
I wouldn't describe me as that.
我觉得我是个技术型的人。
I think I'm I'm a technical guy.
我开始学计算机科学。
I started computer science.
我在高中时就开始学习编程并对它感兴趣，但我并不是编程奇才。
I was learning pro I was interested in programming even in high school, but I wasn't a programming wizard.
我不是那种，你知道的，真正天才级的程序员。
I wasn't, like, you know, one of those really genius coders.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我编程水平还不错。
I think I'm a decent coder.
我觉得在我的职业生涯中，我写过一些不错的代码。
I think I I wrote some decent code in my in my career.
然后大概在2028年，三十岁左右的时候，我就不再写代码了。
And then when I was, like, third 2028, 30 ish, I moved away from coding.
我当时更像是做业务拓展、销售之类的工作。
I was like doing more business development, sales, etcetera.
所以大概可以说，我职业生涯中有八年时间是这样的。
So there was like maybe, I will say, eight years of my career.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你是个普通的移民孩子，在加拿大学习适应。
So you're a normal immigrant kid learning to adapt in Canada.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你有很多朋友吗？
Did you have a lot of friends?
是的。
Yeah.
我有很多朋友。
I had a lot of friends.
我有很多我的
I had a lot my
只有亚洲朋友吗？
Only Asian friends or no?
都有。
Both.
我实际上既有亚洲朋友，也有非亚洲朋友。
I actually had, like, both Asian and non Asian friends.
但在学校里，大多数亚洲人只和亚洲人玩，而我却是少数例外，我有一些白人朋友。
But I was actually you know, at school, most of the Asians hang out with Asians, but I was actually one of the exceptions that I had, like, Caucasian friends.
我有各种不同背景的朋友。
I had all kind of different friends.
是的。
Yeah.
我在加拿大的青少年时期很棒。
My teenager years in Canada was great.
那是一段最美好的时光之一。
It was, like, some of the best years.
我觉得那些年真的让我变成了一个快乐的人。
Like, I think those years have really shaped to me to be a happy person.
我通常是个快乐的人。
I'm generally a happy person.
当你没能进入我的母校滑铁卢大学，只能退而求其次选择麦吉尔大学时，感觉怎么样？
How did it feel when you weren't able to get into my alma mater, University of Waterloo, and so I had to settle for McGill?
那让你有什么感受？
How did that make you feel?
这会让你觉得自己很蠢吗？
Does it make you feel stupid?
其实，我妹妹去了滑铁卢大学。
So actually, I was decide my sister went to Waterloo.
所以我当时在滑铁卢、麦吉尔和多伦多大学之间犹豫不决。
So I was I was deciding between Waterloo and McGill and maybe UT.
我知道我不会去UBC。
I knew I wasn't gonna go to UBC.
我想去一个不同的城市。
I wanted a different city.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，UBC给了我录取通知，但我就是知道我不想去那里。
And actually, UBC gave me an offer, but I just knew I I don't I don't wanna go go there.
当时，我一位非常尊重的朋友的母亲说，你或许应该当医生，因为医生收入不错，生活也很好。
At the at the time, I my friend's mother, who I really respect, she said, well, you might wanna become doctor because doctors have a good living, a good a good lifestyle.
我听了她的建议。
I took her advice.
我学了生物学。
I studied biology.
滑铁卢大学并不是一所很强的生物学校。
And Watteloo is not much of a biology school.
没错。
True.
所以我去了麦吉尔大学。
So I went to McGill.
但一个学期后，我决定不学了。
But then one semester later, I said no.
再也不学生物了。
No more biology.
我得转行了。
I gotta I'm gonna move
去学计算机科学。
to computer science.
这对你来说是典型的大学经历吗？
Was it a typical kind of college experience for you?
暑假时你有很棒的实习工作，还是只是个普通的大学生？
Did you have great jobs in the summertime, or were you just like a an average normal university kid?
顺便问一下，你是怎么支付学费的？
How'd you pay for school, by the way?
我每个夏天都工作。
I worked every summer.
我每个夏天都工作，上学期间也做兼职。
I work every summer, and I also worked part time during the school year.
所以完全没有债务。
So So no debt.
你当时想的是，我必须无债毕业。
You were like, I must graduate without debt.
是的。
Yeah.
我没有申请任何学生贷款。
I didn't take any student debt.
第一年，我实际上还是从我爸那里拿了大约6000加元。
The first year, I actually still took about 6,000 Canadian dollars from my dad.
第二年，我仍然有点资金不足。
The second year, I was still a bit short.
我姐姐给了我3000美元。
My sister gave me $3,000.
从那以后，我就再也没有拿过任何钱
And then from that point on, I never took money from
一分钱都不拿。
at all.
我只是自给自足。
I just I was self sustainable.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
所以完全没有学生贷款。
So no no student debt.
非常幸运。
Very lucky.
但我每个夏天都工作，每个夏天，是的。
And but I just worked every summer, every every like, yeah.
知道，最棒的
Know, the best
滑铁卢最棒的地方，它救了我
thing about Waterloo, which was a savior for me
带薪实习。
The co op.
是带薪实习项目。
Was co op program.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我有这些不可思议的带薪实习工作。
And I had these incredible co op jobs.
但我毕业时还是欠了大约3万美元的债务。
I still graduated with about $30,000 of debt.
不是的。
Uh-uh.
但我也是一名相当活跃的股票交易员。
But I was also pretty prolific trader and equities.
好的。
Okay.
我的老板，这位叫迈克·费舍尔的人，是的。
And my boss, this guy Mike Fisher Yeah.
他对我做了一件特别善良的事，当时我在一家银行工作，是一名衍生品交易员。
Did this incredible kindness to me where I was working at a bank, and I was a derivatives trader.
那是我的日常工作。
That was my day job.
但我当时在交易股票，已经为他赚了不少钱。
But I was trading equities, and I'd made him enough money.
他说他叫我谢尔曼。
He said he called me Sherman.
没叫我查马蒂。
Didn't call me Chamathi.
他说：谢尔曼，你欠多少债？
Said, Sherman, how much debt do you have?
我说：大概三万，我说，鱼哥，大概是三万到三万两千。
And I said, that's about 30 I said, Fish, it's about 30,000, 32,000.
他说：马上到加拿大帝国商业银行去把债还了，我给你开张支票。
And he said, go downstairs right now to the CIBC and pay your debt, and I'll write you a check.
哇哦。
Wow.
你本该
You should have
他给我开了一张32,000美元的支票。
And he wrote me a $32,000 check.
本应该解决的。
Should should have fixed.
那是3,000，30万。
That's 3,000 300,000.
加拿大太棒了，因为你可以获得这样的教育，而不会背负这种债务。
Canada is incredible because you can get this education, and it doesn't saddle you with this Yeah.
这种你无法摆脱的债务，在如今的美国对许多人来说已经不成立了。
Debt that you can't overcome, which is not true in The United States for many people anymore.
是的。
Yeah.
即使在麦吉尔大学，也有来自美国的学生去那里读书，支付国际学生学费，但还是比美国便宜。
Even in McGill, there were people from The United States going to McGill pay international student tuition, and it was still cheaper than The US.
我觉得这太疯狂了。
I was like, that's crazy.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，是的，我们很幸运，美国的
So, yeah, we were lucky that The US
加拿大的学费还可以。
the Canadian tuition was okay.
那你从麦吉尔大学计算机专业毕业了吗？
So you graduate from McGill in computer science?
其实我没有从麦吉尔大学毕业。
In computer actually, I didn't graduate from McGill.
我在那里读了四年。
I went there for four years.
第三年我拿到了实习机会，第四年我又获得了一份实习工作，后来直接留用了，就没再回麦吉尔大学。
And on my third year, I got an internship on my fourth year, I got my 30, got an internship job and then extended extended extended, and I didn't go didn't go back to McGill.
所以我没有从麦吉尔大学毕业。
So I didn't graduate from McGill.
后来我才发现，申请日本的工作签证仍然需要本科学历。
And later on, I found out I still need a bachelor's degree to apply for work visas in Japan.
所以我去了一个叫作……这个是两千美元的学校。
So I went to one this is like the doc this is 2thousand.
这是那个.com，像，高度。
This is the .com, like, height.
于是我参加了一个叫美国计算机科学学院的在线教育项目，并在那里获得了学位。
So I went to an online education program called the American College of Computer Science and got a degree there.
天哪。
Oh my god.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你从那所学校正式毕业了？
So you're technically a graduate from that school?
从技术上讲，是的。
Technically, yes.
好的。
Okay.
那么你是在哪个实习岗位开始在那里工作的？
So which internship did you get where you started to work there?
所以我在东京获得了一个实习机会。
So I got an internship at in Tokyo.
所以从大学一年级开始，我就一直在做编程工作。
So I from from from first year of college, I always worked on a programming job.
所以我曾在一家叫 OriginalSim 的公司工作，编写一些模拟软件。
So I worked at a company called OriginalSim, writing some simulation software.
然后在大三时，我进入了一家位于日本东京的公司，叫 Fusion Systems, Japan。
And then third year, I got into a company in Japan, in Tokyo called Fusion Systems, Japan.
他们当时正在为东京证券交易所的经纪商开发订单执行系统。
And then they were writing order execution systems for brokers of the Tokyo study.
但不好意思。
But sorry.
那是一家在日本东京有办公室的日本公司，还是在加拿大有办公室，还是没有？
That's a Japanese company with an office in Montreal or an office in Canada or no?
没有。
No.
我去了东京。
I I went to Tokyo.
你去了东京。
You went to Tokyo.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，那是一家由一群美国人在东京创办的公司。
It's actually an American a bunch of American guys' company that's in Tokyo.
所以是一群人
So it's like a bunch of guys were
而你当时觉得这是一场冒险。
And you're thinking this is an adventure.
我要去东京住一个夏天。
I'm gonna go and live in Tokyo for a summer.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我当时是个大学生，住在东京感觉很有趣。
I mean, I was a college student, and living in Tokyo was like a It's fun.
那是个梦想。
It's a dream.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
第一次去那里时，感觉像是来自未来。
And and the first time you go there, it's like it's it's That's from the future.
真的很酷。
It's it's cool.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你写的是什么类型的软件？
What kind of software did you write?
主要是订单执行软件。
Mostly order execution software.
就是那种用来处理订单的软件，你知道的，
So the same software, like, that moves orders, you know,
那么，是什么推动了币安今天的发展？
by So what drives Binance today?
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
所以是同样的风格。
So it's the same same style.
实际上，我参与的所有软件都没有决策功能。
Like, actually, all the software I was involved with have no decision making.
所以当你第一次接触到这个时，并没有觉得‘哇，太棒了’。
So when you first and were exposed to this, it was not like, oh, wow.
我喜欢这个。
I love this.
是的。
Yep.
这说得通。
This makes sense.
还是说更像是，好吧。
Or was it more, okay.
有人让我写这段代码，我理解这个概念，所以我就直接做了。
I'm asked to write this code and I understand the concept, so let me just do it.
你是被这个主题吸引，还是只是因为这是你的工作才做的？
Were you attracted to the subject matter or you just did it because it was your job?
我最初做是因为这是我的工作。
I first did it because it was my job.
对吧？
Right?
我当时太年轻了。
I was so young.
我不了解各个行业之间的区别。
I didn't know what all the different industries are.
实际上，当我加入公司时，公司让我负责一个数字影像存储系统的项目，不是那种iPhone照片应用，而是用于医疗影像的系统，是的。
And actually, when I got to the company, the company was giving me a project working on digital imaging storage systems, like, no just basically not iPhone photos app, but for for for medical imaging Yeah.
为尼康做的。
For for Nikon.
但很快，公司的主要产品变成了订单执行系统。
But very soon, the company's main main product is the order execution system.
对。
Right.
于是我参与了这个项目，而它最终成为了我职业生涯的核心。
So I was involved in that, and then that became the thing over my career.
我喜欢它，因为它需要相当多的技术专长。
And I like it because it's it requires quite a lot of technical expertise.
一切都关乎效率，要尽可能快地运行，实现最低的延迟。
Everything is about efficiency, making it go as fast as as possible, process as low latency as possible.
对。
Right.
这种工作很吸引我。
That kind of appeals to me.
我是个潜意识里就追求效率的人。
I'm an efficiency kind of driven guy, like like, subconsciously.
而且就是
And just
再深入说一下，当你观察高频交易机构，比如Susquehanna、Jump Trading这些公司时，他们会做到极致，从自己的断路器到物理光纤基础设施，全方位优化效率和降低延迟。
to double click on that, when you look at high frequency trading organization, the Susquehanna's, the jumps, they go to such a degree to basically optimize for efficiency and low latency all the way down to it's their own circuit breakers, it's their own physical fiber infrastructure.
他们愿意付出代价，只为在两端各削减几毫秒的时间。
They're willing to sort of pay the price to just shave off a handful of milliseconds on either end.
是的。
Yeah.
这具体在软件中是如何体现的？
How does that manifest in the software?
那么当你编写这类软件时，实际上是如何在代码中针对这些边界条件进行优化的呢？
So when you're writing that kind of software, how do you actually optimize for those boundary conditions in code?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，这涉及好几个层面。
So well, there's quite a few levels.
对吧？
Right?
第一层是，你写软件时就要追求高效和快速，绝对不能有延迟。
The first level you do is, like, basically, you write your software to be efficient and fast, like no no slowness.
你要尽量消除所有数据库查询，把所有操作都放在内存中进行。
You want to remove all the database lookups, so you wanna do everything in memory.
然后还要减少任何额外的计算。
And then you want to reduce any sort of additional computation.
你希望简化风险检查，尤其是交易前的风险检查。
You wanna simplify the risk checks pre especially pre order pre pre trade risk checks.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
然后更高级的版本，你会用到FPGA，这是一种嵌入在网络卡上的网络芯片，也就是我们所说的以太网卡。
And then the more advanced versions, you move on to, like, the FPGA, which is a network chip card that's on the on the on the on the network card, on the what we call the ether ether card.
这样你就不用每次都往返内存和处理器之间了。
So that you don't have to go all the way up to memory and come all the way back down to the processor.
所以那时候，大约十年前我还在写代码时，这个往返过程大约需要一百微秒。
So back then, when I was like still writing code like maybe ten years ago, that round trip is about a 100 a hundred microseconds.
微秒。
Microseconds.
是的。
Yeah.
而通过避免这一过程，你可以将时间缩短到二十微秒。
And then by avoiding that, you'd reduce down to twenty microseconds.
对。
Right.
然后你再把它推进到物理基础设施层面。
And then you move it to the physical infrastructure.
你想要的是主机托管。
You want a colocation.
对吧？
Right?
你想知道为什么这些组织，比如在AI领域，像Grok这样的公司，我们十年前刚开始创业时的一个重大观察就是这个确切的想法，即数据在GPU中运行，然后一路向上到HBM再返回下来，这种效率非常低下。
You wanna Why haven't these organizations like, in the AI world, for example, with Grok, our big observation even ten years ago when we were starting the business was this exact idea, which is it's really inefficient for to sit in a GPU to go all the way up to HBM to come back down.
所以我们干脆就用SRAM，直接在芯片上完成所有操作。
So let's just take SRAM and just do everything here on chip.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
用C2C来管理，这个技术问题在推理的解码阶段显得非常合理且极其高效。
Manage it with C2C, that technical problem made a lot of sense and very, very fast for the decode phase of inference.
这完全说得通。
Makes a ton of sense.
既然高频交易牵涉到如此巨大的资金，为什么他们从未尝试过自研定制芯片？
Why when so much money is on the line for high frequency trading, why did they never try their own custom silicon?
我理解FPGA，但真的没有人明确提出过‘这就是一个特定的ASIC’吗？还是说他们做了，只是我们不知道？
I understand FPGAs, but nobody really went to the point of actually saying, here's a specific ASIC, or did they, and we just don't know about it?
我认为这在大规模上并不存在。
I don't think it exists on a very large scale.
我认为，是因为算法变化得太快了。
The mark I think the algorithms change too often.
所以当你转向硬件，比如想在芯片上做设计时，它确实非常高效。
So when you go to hardware, like, you wanna design on chip, it it is very efficient.
它非常快，效率极高。
It's highly it's very fast.
但当你想要改变它时，需要很长时间。
But when you wanna change it, it takes a long time.
对吧？
Right?
所以当你想重新编程时，我认为FPGA已经提供了某种程度上的最佳方案
So when I when when when you wanna reprogram it, I think FPGA already offers kind of the the the best
两全其美。
Best of both.
两全其美。
Of both worlds.
即使是FPGA，如果想重新编程，其编程周期也比软件长得多，大概是10倍。
Even FPGAs, if wanna reprogram it, the programming cycle is much is 10 times longer than software.
对。
Right.
你在日本工作的那家公司，成功了吗？
The company you worked at in Japan, was it successful?
很成功。
Successful.
你那家公司就在2000年之前被一家纳斯达克上市公司收购了。
You got that company got sold to a Nasdaq listed company just before 2000.
卖了很多钱吗？
For a lot of money?
当时卖了5200万美元。
For like $52,000,000 back then.
所以那笔钱是
So that was
一笔可观的收入。
decent money.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，你是不是那时候说，嘿。
And so is that when you said, hey.
等一下。
Hold on.
这里有什么东西吗？
There's something here?
还是说没有。
Or no.
是发生了别的事情吗？
Was it something else that happened?
不是。
No.
那时候我还太年轻。
So at that time, I was too young.
我当时大概20岁。
I was like 20.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你在这儿工作。
So you're working at this place.
你
You're
只是一个程序员。
just a coder.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你是个上班族。
You're a salaryman.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
用日本的说法。
In Japanese terms.
上班族。
Salaryman.
是的。
Yeah.
你是个上班族。
You're a salaryman.
那么请你讲讲之后发生了什么。
So then walk us through what happens afterwards.
所以那家公司被卖了。
So that company got sold.
他们发现母公司和原公司之间存在很多文化冲突。
They acquired there was a lot of culture clashes between the parent company versus the original company.
这是我第一次体会到，并购可能并不奏效。
That's my first experience about, you know, how mergers may not work.
是的。
Yeah.
两家公司的管理层只是在不断冲突。
The the two managements were just clashing.
然后，同样的那些合伙人去创办了一家名为Building Two的公司。
And then the the same partners went to do a different company called Building two.
但这次我一分钱都没赚到，而那些合伙人却赚了不少钱。
But now this partners the I didn't get any money, but the partners got quite a bit of money now.
于是他们租了一个非常豪华的办公室。
So they rented a very fancy office.
这家公司只维持了一年。
That company only lasted a year.
这意味着过去的成功并不能保证未来的成功。
It means that previous success doesn't guarantee future success.
事实上。
In fact.
所以他们花了很多钱，租了非常漂亮的办公室，但收入却是零。
So they spent a lot of money, had a very nice office, but has zero zero zero revenue.
所以那家公司一年内就倒闭了，那是在2001年。
So that folded within a year, and that's 2001.
于是在2001年初，我开始寻找新的工作。
And so early two thousand and one, I was looking for new jobs.
然后彭博社正在招聘。
And then Bloomberg was hiring.
这正好是在9/11之前。
And this is right before nine eleven.
我大概在9/11之前拿到了录用通知，然后9/11事件就发生了。
I kinda got an offer before nine eleven, and then nine eleven happened.
我还没有搬过去。
I still haven't moved.
然后我
And then I
这在哪里？
Where was this?
去纽约？
To New York?
或者
Or
那时候还在东京，而彭博社在
This was in well, was still in Tokyo back then, and then Bloomberg is in
纽约。
New York.
那份工作offer是在纽约。
The offer was supposed The offer was in New York.
那份工作offer是在纽约。
The offer was in New York.
所以09:11之后，我给彭博社打了电话，说：嘿，这个职位还在吗？
So after 09:11, I called Bloomberg, say, hey, is the job still there?
你们还想要我过去吗？
Do you still want me to go?
他们说：那你还愿意来吗？
And they said, well, do you still wanna come?
我说：是的。
I said, yeah.
好的。
Okay.
于是我去了，2001年11月我去了纽约。
So then I went so I went to New York in November 2001.
哇。
Wow.
那是什么感觉？
Is it What was that like?
街道上相当安静。
The streets were pretty quiet.
是的。
Yeah.
但你知道，我没事。
And but, you know, I was fine.
我当时觉得，纽约在那几个月里很安静，但我觉得它很快又恢复了活力。
I was, you know, and New York is a is New York was quiet for a few months, but it it became lively pretty quickly, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我没感到太多问题。
So I didn't feel too much issues.
然后我去纽约，在彭博社工作了四年。
So I then went to New York and worked at Bloomberg for four years.
还是做完全相同的事情。
Doing exact again, the same thing.
你算是拿固定工资的那种人。
You're kind of a salary guy.
你在一家大公司工作。
You're working at a big company.
是的。
Yep.
工资、奖金，可能还有一些股票期权或者虚拟股权之类的。
Salary, bonus, maybe some options or some phantom equity or something like that.
对。
Yeah.
我入职时是高级开发人员。
So I joined as a senior developer.
我被分到了一个叫 Tradebook Futures 的团队。
I was put into a team called Tradebook Futures.
他们刚组建了这个团队，有一个系统允许人们在彭博上交易期货，但那个系统比较分散。
They just formed this team, and they had a system that allowed people to trade futures on Bloomberg, but it wasn't it was, like, spread out.
所以他们把这一切整合到了一个团队里。
So they collected that into into into one into one team.
那你当时完全没有一点创业的念头吗？
And still no inkling of, like, that entrepreneurial bug?
没有。
Not really.
那时候我觉得，算了吧。
Back then, I was like, nah.
我
I
我那时候和谁一起工作？你当时在找什么？
I worked with Like, what were you looking for?
稳定性？
Stability?
为什么选择彭博社呢？
Like, why like, why Bloomberg?
身在纽约，那感觉是怎样的？
Being in New York, like, what was it?
我当时只是个年轻人。
I was just a young guy.
我觉得我当时大概是24岁、25岁左右。
I was like I think I was like 24, twenty twenty four, 25.
好的。
Okay.
所以我只是一个想找工作、体验世界不同地方、寻找自己方向的年轻人。
So I was just a young guy trying to get a job and, you know, experience different parts of the world and get and and just find my way through.
我知道自己经验还不够，没法自己创业。
I I knew I wasn't experienced enough to do entrepreneurship myself.
对吧？
Right?
所以我当时在东京的一家小公司工作。
So I was and I I was working at a small company in Tokyo.
这家公司只有大约200人。
The company only had like 200 people.
当时彭博社大约有3000人。
Bloomberg at the time had about 3,000 people.
所以对我来说，那已经是一家大公司了。
So it would to me, that was a big company.
是的。
Yeah.
他们有豪华的办公室、鱼缸、免费的食物等等。
And they have fancy offices, fish tanks, free food and everything.
于是我以高级开发者的身份加入了。
So I joined as a senior developer.
我遇到了一些不错的上司。
I got some good bosses.
我在两年内升职了三次，之后最初带领一个60人的团队，后来团队逐渐扩大到大约80人。
I got promoted three times in two years, and then I was leading a team of 60 initially, and they kinda grew to about 80 people.
那就是我开始成为经理的时候。
And that's when I became sort of a manager.
我不再写代码了，开始转向
I no longer wrote code and I started started
最糟糕的转变。
Worst transition.
最糟糕的转变。
The worst transition.
对吧？
Right?
最糟糕的。
Worst
转变。
transition.
这就是我在彭博的经历。
So that's kind of my Bloomberg experience.
是的。
Yeah.
所以那个，我会的，嗯。
So that and I'll yeah.
所以我得在那里待四年。
So I have to stay there for four years.
然后你就辞职去了中国？
And then you quit and moved to China?
对。
Yes.
这是怎么发生的？
How does that happen?
我想应该是2005年2月左右。
I think it was wrong, like, February 2005.
同样，我在日本认识的那些朋友，他们正在谈论创办一家新的金融科技公司，而他们当时在亚洲。
Again, the same friends I had I made in Japan, they were talking about starting a new company, a new fintech company, and they were in Asia.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们在讨论东京、上海或香港。
So they're talking about Tokyo, Shanghai, or Hong Kong.
他们说上海最有可能成为金融科技未来的中心。
And they said Shanghai is most likely the most happening place for the future of fintech.
我们本该选香港的。
We should have picked Hong Kong.
自从我2005年去过那里后，香港变得热闹多了。
Hong Kong had a lot more So happening since I went there in 2005.
所以从中国人的角度看，我们五个外国人：四个白人，一个日本人，再加上我。
So the it was like five foreigners from a Chinese perspective, five Caucasians four Caucasians plus a Japanese plus me.
我是唯一会说中文的人。
I'm the only one who speaks Chinese.
但那时候我的中文也有点生疏了。
And my Chinese was kinda rusty back then too.
所以我们六个人去上海创办了一家新的IT初创公司。
So the six of us went there to do a new IT startup startup in Shanghai.
你们所有人一落地，那你们的构想是什么？
You so all you guys just land there, and what was the idea?
所以我们觉得，你们知道，我们都有华尔街交易技术方面的经验。
So we thought, you know, we had all this Wall Street experience on Wall Street trading technology experience.
所以
And so
你的其他朋友是搬去纽约了，还是没有？
your other friends, had they moved to New York or no?
他们还在日本做自己的事情吗？
They were still in Japan doing their own thing?
有两个朋友和我一起在纽约，另外三个来自日本。
Two of the friends were in New York with me, and then the other three were from Japan.
对吧？
Right?
他们就在那里。
They were there.
他们一直都在，所以我们六个人聚在了一起。
They always they they were so the six of us came together.
我们想，我们的想法是把华尔街的交易技术带到中国，为中国的经纪商和交易所提供服务。
And we wanted to do we want our idea was let's bring the Wall Street trading technology into China so we can service the brokers and exchanges in China.
但后来，我们就去了。
But then so we went.
他们又租了一个非常豪华的办公室。
They rented a very fancy office again.
等等。
Wait.
好的。
Okay.
等等一下。
So hold on.
所以你们创办这家公司的时候，这是你们第一次创业。
Just so when you guys start this company so this is now your first entrepreneurial.
你们当时就想，好吧。
You're like, okay.
我们开始吧。
Let's do this.
差不多就是这样。
Pretty much.
你们当时有没有想过要问这个问题，比如，好吧，各位。
Did you know to even ask the question like, okay, guys.
我们的股权怎么分配？
What's our equity split?
股权结构是怎样的？
What's the cap table?
你了解这些情况吗，还是你只是觉得，挺好的？
Did you know any of these things or you're just like, great.
咱们去干吧。
Let's go do it.
我只是假设是六分之一。
I'm just assuming it's one sixth.
我们是平等的。
We're equal.
我是说，这一切是怎么发生的？
Like, how how did it all
根本不是六分之一。
It it wasn't one sixth.
是那个领头的人拿了大约39%到40%，剩下的五个人平分。
It was like the top guy had, like, I don't know, 39, 40%, and the the the rest five of us split equally.
所以我大概有11%左右。
So I had about 11% or so.
好的。
Okay.
所以我当时知道这一点，但并不了解股东权利的具体细节，比如各种条款。
And so I knew that, but I didn't know, like, you know, all the ins and outs about, you know, shareholder rights, what terms.
这些我全都不懂。
I didn't know any of that.
是的。
Yeah.
优先股和普通股的区别。
Preferred versus common.
这些我全都不懂。
None of it.
然后我就，嗯，是的。
And then I I yeah.
你可能会觉得，太好了。
You're like, great.
我拿到了11%。
I got 11%.
我要搬家了
I'm moving
去上海。
to Shanghai.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我只有11%。
So I just have 11%.
我根本不知道普通股是什么，或者它和优先股的区别。
I didn't I I have no idea what common stock is or versus preferred.
所以就直接去了。
So just went.
然后我是这个团队的初级合伙人。
And then but so I was a junior partner in this group.
当我们抵达中国后，我开始负责，因为我懂中文。
And then once we landed in China, I start because I speak Chinese.
对吧？
Right?
所以我开始接触潜在客户。
So I began talking to potential clients.
我去和经纪人交谈。
I went to talk to brokers.
我了解到我们注册为外商独资企业，也就是我们所说的WOFI。
I found out we register as a wholly foreign owned, what we call a WOFI, wholly wholly foreign owned enterprise.
是的。
Yeah.
中国的经纪人和金融机构不允许与外商独资企业合作。
The Chinese brokers and financial institutions are not allowed to work with a WOFI.
没错。
That's right.
所以我们是在上海开始公司运营后才发现这一点的。
So we found out after we started the company while we were in Shanghai.
于是公司转向为任何公司提供任何IT系统服务。
And so the company pivoted towards doing any any any IT system for any for any company.
我们可以像
We can be like
按需外包。
Work for hire.
按需外包。
Work for hire.
我们可以成为
We can be
修复德勤。
fixing Deloitte.
你成了德勤。
You became Deloitte.
甚至都不是德勤。
Not not even Deloitte.
我们可以修理打印机，或者也可以为你编写，比如，你知道的，SAP实施项目。
We can be fixing printers or we can be writing, like, you know, SAP implementations for you.
所有这些我们都做过。
We did all of that.
所以这涵盖了整个业务范围。
So there's a whole spectrum of things.
我们这样做了几年，实际上也以此谋生。
So we did that for a few years, and we actually made a living.
几年？
Few years?
是的。
Yeah.
持续了几年。
For for for a few years.
就这样，我们靠这个谋生。
Like and we made a living out of that.
是的。
Yeah.
我们开始的时候，我们有不少汽车行业的客户，比如上海通用汽车、上海大众、上海第一汽车。
We we started we had a quite a number of automotive clients, the Shanghai General Motors, Shanghai Volkswagen, Shanghai First Auto First Automotive.
他们都是我们的客户。
They were all clients of us.
然后大概过了三四年，我们在香港设立了办事处，开始与摩根士丹利、德意志银行、瑞士信贷等机构合作。
And then we're, like, maybe three or four years in, we started having offices in Hong Kong, and then we were dealing with Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, Credit Suisse.
所以它发展起来了。
So it grew.
所以它算是成功了。
So it was it was successful.
这家公司现在还在运营。
The company is still around.
这家公司现在还在运营。
The company is still around.
所以我2013年离开了，待了八年，但公司还在。
So I I left in 2013 after eight years, but the company is still around.
所以你在那家公司工作的八年里，都在上海吗？
So in the eight years you worked at that company, all in Shanghai?
我主要在上海，但花了不少时间帮助建立香港办公室。
I was mostly in Shanghai, but then I spent quite a bit of time helping to set up the Hong Kong office.
此外，我还为东京的一些客户做了大量工作。
And then I was also doing quite a lot of work for some clients in Tokyo.
那家公司发展到多大规模？
How big did that company get?
我想它一度达到了大约200人，据我所知，这个规模一直保持到现在。
I think even it got to about 200 people again, and it's kinda stayed there for for as far as far as I know, even till now.
所以作为初级合伙人，你只需分取利润，
And so as a junior partner, you just take profits and you share it,
是的。
like Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以实际上，我们并没有拿太多利润。
So well, actually, I we didn't take that much profits.
我实际上把大部分积蓄都重新投资到了这家公司，一分钱都没取出来。
I actually invested most of my savings back into that company, and I actually didn't cash out a penny.
哇。
But Wow.
几年后，公司稳定到足以支付合伙人薪水，我们的孩子都能上国际学校。
After a few years, the company was stable enough to pay the partner salaries that all of our kids go to international school.
所以我们拿到了六位数的薪水。
So we get a we get a we get a 6 figure salary.
那时你已经结婚了。
At that point, you had gotten married.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
所以到那个时候确实是的。
So at that point yeah.
所以那时候我在纽约结婚了。
So at that point I got married when I was in New York.
就是这样。
So like yeah.
所以后来确实是这样。
So and then yeah.
所以我负责了。
So I I took care.
而且你已经遇到了
And you had met
你的前妻哈尔？
your ex wife, Hal?
是的。
Yeah.
我是在第一次去东京时认识她的。
I met her I met her in in in Tokyo when I first went to Tokyo.
我大概是在1999年左右在东京实习时认识她的。
So I met her in like nineteen ninety nine ish when I when I was working in Tokyo like doing the interns.
好的。
Okay.
然后她来纽约看望我，我们就结婚了，之后有了孩子。
And then she visited me in in New York and then, you know, we we got married and then we had kids.
现在我们分开了，或者说是离婚了。
Now we are separated or divorced.
在上海时，我有年幼的孩子，当时的薪水足够让孩子上国际学校，这对我来说已经足够了。
In Shanghai, had young kids and, you know, it was enough salary to put the kid into into international school, and that was that was good enough for me.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
又远了。
Far again
是的。
Yeah.
这里没有任何迹象表明你即将去创办币安。
Nothing here tells anybody that you're about to go and start Binance.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
没有任何吗？
Nothing?
没有任何。
Nothing.
没有。
No.
我没有。
I I didn't
知道。
know.
那么2013年、2014年，那时候你多大？
So then 2013, 2014, how old were you then at that point?
你当时是
You were
20岁。
20 year.
13年的时候，我会是36岁。
13, I I would be 36.
是的。
Yeah.
三十五六岁。
Mid thirties.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，再说一遍，拿薪水的上班族。
So So, again, salary guy.
是的。
Yeah.
在这个机构里是初级合伙人。
Junior partner at this thing.
进展不错。
It's going well.
你的孩子在私立学校上学。
Your kids are in private school.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那后来怎么样了？
So then what happens?
后来我接触到了比特币。
So then I came across Bitcoin.
对吧？
Right?
所以，我的朋友们告诉我：‘CZ，你得看看这个叫比特币的东西。’
So well, my friends tells me, look, CZ, you gotta look at this thing called Bitcoin.
我研究了一下。
I look into it.
我花了大约六个月才完全理解它。
I was like, it took me about roughly six months to fully understand it.
所以那大概也是2013年7月左右。
So that was from, like, roughly July 2013 too.
因为你读了白皮书，然后说我要再读一遍、再读一遍？
Because you read the white paper and you said I need to read it again and read it again?
或者
Or
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
然后因为那时候有个Bitcoin Talk论坛。
And then because back then, there was the Bitcoin talk org forum.
是的。
Yeah.
然后基本上就是这样了。
And then that's pretty much it.
你看过我2012年的彭博社文章吗？
Did you see my Bloomberg article in 2012?
那篇文章有产生任何影响吗？
Is that that had any influence?
可惜的是，不要
Unfortunately, don't
我读了很多东西。
I I read a bunch of stuff.
我其实不记得我读了什么
I actually don't remember what I
我只是在开玩笑。
I'm just kidding.
但我确实写了这个东西。
But I did write this thing.
这很有趣，因为我跟迈克·布隆伯格有过一种关系。
And it's funny because I had a kind of a relationship with Mike Bloomberg.
他甚至算不上是导师。
He was kind of not even mentor.
他只是资历太深了，但他认识我。
He was just too senior, but he knew me.
他喜欢我。
He liked me.
他会邀请我参加某些活动。
He would invite me to certain things.
和迈克·布隆伯格？
With Mike Bloomberg?
是的。
Yeah.
和布隆伯格。
With Bloomberg.
然后我开始认识迈克的一些团队成员。
And then I got to know some of Mike's team.
大约在2012年左右，他们对我说：贾马尔，你愿意写一篇评论文章吗？
And in 2012 or so, they said, Jamal, would you write an op ed?
我当时说：好。
And I was like, Yeah.
我写了一篇关于比特币的文章。
And I wrote it about Bitcoin.
我说：每个人都应该把净资产的1%投入比特币。
And I said, Everybody should put 1% of their net worth into Bitcoin.
我还说：这本质上是一种傻瓜保险。
And I said, It's basically schmuck insurance.
然后他们把它发布在彭博终端上之类的平台。
And then they published it in the Bloomberg terminal or whatever.
就是那时我真正醒悟了比特币，心想：哇。
And that's when I got red pilled on Bitcoin where I was like, Wow.
这是我读过的最令人着迷的技术产品。
It's the most incredibly interesting technical product that I had read about.
我认为吸引我的是，我不知道你是否有同样的感受。
And I think the thing that captivated me, I don't know if you felt this way.
没有。
No.
这是我唯一一篇从头到尾读完的白皮书，我觉得它是非技术性散文中最优雅的作品之一。
It was the only white paper that I read end to end where I thought, this is one of the most elegantly written pieces of nontechnical prose.
你
Do you
知道我想表达什么吗？
know what I'm
我想说的是，这并不是那种深奥难懂、只针对博士的档案材料。
trying to say?
它不是那种堆满档案、只给博士看的晦涩内容。
Like, it's not something that is dense in an archive that is just meant for PhDs.
你完全可以把它给你的姐妹、兄弟，或者任何非技术人员，他们都能看懂。
You could literally give it to your sister, to your brother, to somebody nontechnical, and they would understand it.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且它只有90页。
And it's only 90 pages.
没错。
Exactly.
你知道要做到这一点需要多么高的智力水平吗？
You know what an enormous amount of intellectual skill it takes to do that?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
写得很简短要难得多。
It's much harder to write it very short.
难得多。
Much harder.
是的。
Yeah.
而且要优雅简洁。
And elegantly and simply.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
如果其他人试着重写那东西，估计得写成90页。
If anybody else tried to rewrite that thing, it'd be 90 pages.
所以，给你看这个的朋友，是你的同事吗？
So the friend that showed it to you, was he a coworker of yours or no?
只是个偶然认识的朋友在
Just a random friend in
上海？
Shanghai?
是个朋友。
It's a friend.
是个朋友，是个朋友，是个……嗯，不是随便什么人。
It's a it's a it's a random well, not a random.
是个朋友。
It's a friend.
我们之间没有任何工作上的关系。
We don't have any working relationships.
他叫陶龙。
His name is Ron Tao.
他现在经营着天际资本，我想。
He runs, I guess, now Skyline Ventures.
那时候，他在光速创投。
Back then, he he was at Lightspeed Ventures.
当然。
Of course.
他曾是光速创投在中国的管理合伙人。
He was a managing director of Lightspeed Ventures in China.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们有个扑克牌局，你知道的，小额赌注。
So we play we have a poker house game, like, you know, small stakes.
一群挣扎中的创业者对上一些风险投资人。
A bunch of a bunch of entrepreneur struggling entrepreneurs versus, like, VCs.
所以风投手里掌握着所有的资金。
So the VCs have all the money and all that.
大卫对战以利亚。
David versus Elias.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但这确实是个有趣的游戏。
So but, you know, it's a fun it's a fun game.
这并不是一个很严肃的游戏。
It's not a very serious game.
在一次扑克游戏中，罗恩说，CD，你应该看看这个叫比特币的东西。
So on oh, in one of the poker games, Ron says, CD, you should look at this thing called Bitcoin.
我当时就说，好吧。
I was like, okay.
比特币。
Bitcoin.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们稍微聊了聊这个。
So and so we talked about it a little bit.
当时，李启威正在沃尔玛工作，正准备辞职加入比特币中国担任首席执行官。
And then Bobby Lee, who was at the time was working for Walmart, was just about to quit Walmart to join BTC China to become their CEO.
作为这笔交易的一部分，李启威表示他会把罗恩和Lightspeed引入。
And as part of that deal, Bobby said he will bring Ron in as a investor, Lightspeed, into
进入BTCC。
Into b c BTCC.
进入BTCC。
Into BTCC.
那是2013年2月。
So that's in 02/2013.
我当时就想，好吧。
I was like, okay.
看来这两个人是认真的。
So they are the these two guys are pretty serious about this.
所以我第二天和Bobby共进午餐，他说把你净资产的10%投入比特币。
I So had lunch with Bobby the next day, and Bobby said put 10% of your net worth into Bitcoin.
他说虽然有小概率会归零，但你最多也就损失10%。
He said there's a small chance you will go to zero, then you lose 10%.
你资产翻10倍的可能性要大得多，净资产也会翻番。
There's a much higher chance you will go 10 x and you will double your net worth.
我当时就想，好吧。
I was like, okay.
听起来挺严肃的。
That sounds pretty serious.
所以我就是从那时开始了解
So that's when I started learning about
更仔细地重读了白皮书。
re reading the white paper more carefully.
花了我六个月的时间。
Took me six months.
一直到2013年才开始。
So it was till the 2013.
于是我开始想，我现在真的信了。
I started like, so I'm I'm convinced now.
我准备好了。
I'm ready to go.
但比特币从2013年年中的70美元涨到了大约一千美元，是的。
But then Bitcoin went from $70 in mid two thousand thirteen to, like, a thousand dollars Yeah.
到2013年的时候。
By 2013.
所以你
So you
已经赚了超过15倍左右。
already win more than, like, 15 x.
怎么
How did
那让你感觉如何？
that make you feel?
我当时想，我来得太晚了。
I was like, I'm I'm too late.
你知道吗？
You know?
我当时就想，真希望我能早点入场。
I was like, I wish I got in early.
是的。
Yeah.
因为那时候，对吧，它不会。
Because when back then, right, it would no.
什么时候进入比特币都不重要。
Doesn't matter when you get into Bitcoin.
你总会觉得自己来晚了。
You always feel late.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
因为你认识的每一个比特币行业的人，都比你早买入。
Because the anyone you talk to has in the Bitcoin industry has bought before you.
你有没有在学习的时候和别人聊过
And did you talk
在学习比特币的过程中，你有没有和上海的圈子交流过？
to anybody while you were learning about it to say, like, you have a community in in Shanghai?
上海确实有一个很小的社群。
There's a commune there's a very small community in Shanghai.
然后我基本上在和世界上任何愿意和我交谈的人交流。
And then I was basically talking to anybody in the world that's that's willing to talk with me.
然后我在台湾有几个朋友。
And then I had a couple friends in Taiwan.
他们当时在台积电工作，试图为比特币开发矿机芯片。
They used to they they worked for TSMC back then because and then they were trying to do a mining chip for for Bitcoin.
当然。
Sure.
于是其中两个人离开了台积电，去尝试创办这家初创公司。
So two of those guys left TSMC to try to do this startup.
这家初创公司从未真正成功，但那是我曾经交流过的一群人。
Startup never never really took off, but, you know, that was one group of guys I was talking to.
还有另一对人，他们主要是矿工。
There was another couple they're mostly miners.
还有个家伙，他的绰号叫Fish，中文叫银鱼。
There was another guy called his nickname is Fish, Silver Fish in China.
他是个大矿主。
He's like a big miner.
他至今还在运行F2Pool。
He's run off the f two pool even today.
哦，
Oh,
当然。
sure.
那些人住在杭州。
So those guys were based in Hangzhou.
你知道的，我去找过他们，他们来过上海。
You know, I went they came to Shanghai.
我和他们聊过，等等。
I talked to them, etcetera.
有一群人是你曾经接触过的。
There was a group of guys that you talked to.
然后最重要的事情发生在2000年12月，当时在拉斯维加斯举办了一场比特币会议。
And then the biggest thing was in December 2000 December, there was a Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas.
我飞过去见所有人，整个行业的人都在那里。
I flew there to meet everyone everyone in the industry was there.
那是一场有200人参加的会议。
There was a 200 people conference.
维塔利克也在那里。
Vitalik was there.
马特·罗斯亚克也在那里。
Matt Rosyk was there.
查理·李也在那里。
Charlie Lee was there.
很多其他人也在场。
Bunch of guys were there.
直到今天，还是这些老面孔。
And the same same guys till today.
就在那之前，也就是丝绸之路网站创始人罗斯·乌布利希被捕的时候。
And then at the time, just before that, it was the Silk Road arrest of Of course.
罗斯·乌布利希。
Ross Woolridge.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当时媒体的态度是，不行。
So the media was like, no.
比特币当时只有毒枭才会使用。
This Bitcoin is only used by drug lords.
是的。
Yeah.
当你去参加那个会议时，感觉就像是一群孩子。
And when you go to the conference, it was like a bunch of kids.
一群极客，彻头彻尾的极客。
A bunch of geeks geeks.
他们都是非常友善的人。
And they're very nice people.
对吧？
Right?
所以你可以和维塔利克聊天，你知道的，他是个非常不错的人。
So you can talk to Vitalik, you know, that's you know, he's a very nice person.
在你做这些事情的同时，你还继续在那家公司工作吗？兼职？
Were you still working at that company while you were doing all of this, moonlighting?
是的。
Yes.
所以这就是所谓的你
So this is what this is kind of the You
告诉你的伙伴们，嘿，各位。
tell your partners, hey, guys.
我打算去拉斯维加斯待几天。
I'm just gonna go to Vegas for a couple days.
我很快就回来。
I'll be back.
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
等我回来后，我告诉合伙人们，我们应该做一个比特币支付系统，因为那时候BitPay是行业巨头。
And then and then when I got back, I told the partners, we should do a Bitcoin payment system because BitPay was kind of the big player back then.
是的。
Yeah.
BitPay在2013年融资了400万美元。
BitPay just raised 4,000,000 US dollars in 2013.
所以他们当时算是比较大的玩家了。
So they was kind of the the large player.
实际上，他们包括我能
Actually, they include Can I
给你讲个很有意思的小片段？
tell you a very funny bit?
我有两个关于BitPay的故事。
I have two BitPay stories.
当然。
Sure.
我当时非常专注于证明比特币的交易能力。
I was very focused on trying to prove the transactional capability of Bitcoin.
是的。
Yeah.
我在2012年或13年的时候，去了本地的一家汽车经销商那里，用比特币通过BitPay买了一辆车。
I went to my local car dealership, and I bought a car with Bitcoin using BitPay in 2012 or '13.
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