本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
迪伦·菲尔德，欢迎来到All-In访谈。
Dylan Field, welcome to the All-In interview.
谢谢。
Thank you.
感谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
我们现在在美丽的加州纳帕，扬特维尔。
We are here in beautiful Napa, Yountville, California.
是啊，你已经喝了几杯了。
Yeah, you're three drinks in.
我们喝了几杯，然后决定上镜。
We're a couple drinks in, and we decided to go on camera.
对，为什么不呢？
Yeah, why not?
为什么不呢？
Why not?
那你在这儿干嘛呢？
Well, what are you doing here?
我全力以赴了。
I'm going all in.
随着你的财富增长，你有没有注意到事情变得复杂多了？
As your wealth grows, have you noticed how much more complex things get?
投资、税务策略、遗产规划，管理这一切就像一份你不想干的全职工作。
Between investments, tax strategy, and estate planning, managing it all is a full-time job you didn't ask for.
Creative Planning 可以帮你。
Creative Planning can help.
他们的团队协调投资经理、注册会计师和关联遗产律师，能帮你分担大部分重活，你就不用操心了。
Their coordinated team of investment managers, CPAs, and affiliated estate attorneys can do much of the heavy lifting so you don't have to.
Creative Planning，让财富协同运作。
Creative Planning, where wealth works together.
访问 creativeplanning.com/allin。
Go to creativeplanning.com/allin.
我要全力以赴。
I'm going all in.
我是在为明天你也要参加的那个活动做准备。
I was, for this event that you're going to be at tomorrow as well.
我明天有个活动。
I'm at an event tomorrow.
同一个活动，我们主要聊了设计和产品开发。
Same event, and we were basically talking about design, product development.
我偷偷加了一点安全方面的内容。
I snuck in a little bit of security.
觉得那样挺好的。
Thought that'd be nice.
但总的来说，聊了很多关于产品开发如何演变的内容，而且在我看来，你也会猜到我会说，设计就是新的代码。
But overall, a lot about just how product development is evolving, and in my point of view, the thing you'd expect me to say, too, is that design is the new code.
现在发生的是，随着编程模型越来越好，我不是说你们不需要工程师了。
And what's happening right now is as coding models get better, I'm not saying that you don't need engineers.
在Figma，我们绝对需要工程师。
We definitely need engineers at Figma.
我们很爱我们的工程师，但编程的本质正在发生变化。
We love our engineers, but also the nature of programming is changing.
随着这种变化，差异化带来的价值正在上升。
And as it changes, the value is rising in terms of differentiation to the top.
那就是设计、品牌和营销的视角。
That's design, that's brand, it's marketing's point of view.
要大胆。
It's being bold.
还有你能引发的情感反应。
And it's the emotional reaction you're able to elicit.
我觉得很多人忽略了这一点。
And I think that a lot of people are missing that.
我们还聊了很多关于AI的话题，就像——
We also talked a lot about AI and just kind of like-
好的，你今天在台上做了个展示。
Okay, so you did a thing on stage today.
你和尼凯什聊了。
You talked with Nikesh.
对，抱歉，我还在回顾刚才的采访。
Yeah, sorry, I'm just recapping the interview here.
不好意思。
Sorry.
没事，挺好的。
Yeah, no, it's great.
挺好的。
It's good.
我们可以快进。
We can fast-forward.
但我想先回顾一下。
But I want to back up.
你是Figma的CEO，公司已经上市了。
You're the CEO of Figma, publicly traded.
你能不能简单介绍一下Figma，还有你是什么时候开始创业的？
Maybe you can just give the quick elevator pitch on Figma, and when did you start the business?
我们是在2012年8月创办Figma的，简单来说，我们想让世界上最优秀的团队能够设计、创造并打造出全球最好的软件。
We started Figma back in August 2012, and the quick pitch is this is where we want to make it so that the best teams in the world can design and create and build the world's best software.
我们还被用于各种用途，比如市场营销、广告、幻灯片、白板、图表等等，你能想到的都有。
We're also used for all sorts of stuff, so marketing, advertising, slides, whiteboarding, diagramming, you name it.
只要是视觉相关的东西，很可能有人在Figma里做，即使原本不是为这个设计的。
If it's visual at all, someone's probably doing it in Figma, even if it's not meant for that.
人们称它为设计软件。
People call it a design software.
这个说法准确吗，还是说它没有完全涵盖这个服务的全部功能？
Is that a fair characterization, or does it not capture the full spectrum of what the service is?
不，我觉得设计确实是我们的核心和中心。
No, I think that design is really our center and our core.
当我在产品评审中与团队交流时，我们会讨论设计师，以及他们的需求。
And when I'm in a product review and talking with the team, we talk about designers, we talk about what they want.
设计这个词也很有意思，因为关于设计有一百种定义。
Design is also a term that's so interesting because there's 100 definitions of design.
我经常思考的一个定义是，设计或许就是创意与解决问题的结合。
I think a lot about the definition of it's maybe creativity meets problem-solving.
但你还能找到很多其他的定义。
But there's so many others you can find.
而且设计可以涵盖从室内设计、工业设计、产品设计到品牌设计等等。
And then also design can refer to everything from interior to industrial, to product design, to brand design, and so on.
所以当人们想到设计时，脑海中会浮现出很多不同的东西。
And so people think about a lot of things when they think about design.
为了回顾一下公司的历史，你们是在2012年起步的。
Just to get caught up on the history of the business, you started in 2012.
你们当时筹集了一些风险投资。
You raised some venture money.
公司开始起飞了。
The business takes off.
你在卖企业软件。
You're selling enterprise software.
你做得非常好，然后Adobe提出以200亿美元收购你的公司？
You're doing really well, and then Adobe offers to buy the business for $20 billion?
对，没错。
Yeah, correct.
真是快进了一大步。
Quite the fast-forward.
那是哪一年？
What year was that?
那是几年前的事了。
It was a few years back now.
然后——
And-
对，所以我直接跳过了创业的具体过程。
Right, so I'm skipping through literally building the business.
是的，你就像……
Yeah, you're like-
……已经做了10到11年了。
... 10, 11 years in.
不过，我们一直都很尊重Adobe，现在也是。这是一家跨时代的了不起的公司，从印刷业起步，把Photoshop做成了今天的样子，还引领了整个平面设计革命。
But, no, we have always respected Adobe, still do, and intergenerational, incredible company that started everything from printing to making Photoshop what it is and the entire graphic design revolution.
顺便说一句，我从1990年就开始用Adobe Photoshop了。
By the way, I was on Adobe Photoshop since 1990.
我当时做平面设计——
I did graphic design-
哇，那你是在图层功能出现之前就开始用了？
Wow, so you're pre-layers?
其实，这件事我们俩还没聊过。
Actually, you and I haven't talked about this.
你是在图层功能出现之前就开始用了吗？
Were you pre-layers?
是的。
Yes.
所以我在图层功能出现之前，还是个孩子的时候，就在电脑上做平面设计了，还给邻居和小企业提供设计服务。
So I did graphic design pre-layers as a kid on computers, and I did it as a service for people in the neighborhood and small businesses and stuff.
太酷了。
So cool.
然后呢——
And then-
那你是怎么接触到它的？
And so how'd you get access to it?
在学校里，然后我还有……嗯，我用的是麦金塔电脑。
At my school, and then I had... Well, I was on a Macintosh.
我在1984年就买了第一台原版Mac。
I got the first Mac original in 1984.
我一直对平面设计很着迷。
And I was always fascinated with graphic design.
那真的是我纯粹当作爱好来喜欢做的事情。
It was something I loved doing as literally a hobby.
其实我们俩从来没聊过这个。
You and I actually never talked about this.
后来我还用了Bryce 3D，还有那些——
And then I used Bryce 3D and all these-
早期的3D工具。
... early 3D tools.
然后Kai's Power Tools出来的时候，它——
And then when Kai's Power Tools came out, it-
Kai's Power Tools真的很酷。
Kai's Power Tools is really cool
——它彻底改变了Adobe Photoshop。
... it reinvented Adobe Photoshop.
对我来说，这就像是创造潜力的一次巨大扩展，以及你能用Photoshop做些什么。
And for me, it was like this incredible expansion of creative potential and what you could do with Photoshop.
所以从最早的时候起，我就是Photoshop的超级粉丝，也是个人爱好上的重度用户，我还靠做平面设计之类的东西赚点外快——
So I've been a big Photoshop fan since the earliest days and a big user as a personal hobby, and I made money on the side doing graphic design and stuff-
太棒了，兄弟。
That's awesome, man
——那时候还是小孩。
... as a kid.
Photoshop当然是一个非常成熟的产品，甚至可能过于成熟了，因为多年来它添加了太多不同的部分，我觉得这是很多软件的通病。
Photoshop, of course, is a product that is very mature and maybe beyond mature, too, in that it has so many different parts of it that have been added over the years, which I think is the nature of a lot of software.
如果不小心的话，它会变得越来越臃肿，但它的可能性实在太多了。
It gets more bloated over time if you're not careful, but there's just so much that's possible with it.
而且Adobe作为一家公司，一直非常有创造力。
And Adobe, as a company, has been very inventive.
所以从小我也一直很尊敬它。
So I've always had a respect since I was a kid, too.
完全同意。
Totally.
而且感觉那时候加入的话，我们不会被完全吞并。
And it felt like it was a time when we could join and not be totally absorbed.
如果我们规模更小，我觉得可能就会慢慢消失。
If we were smaller, I felt like maybe we would just kind of dissipate.
对，我们签了协议。
And yeah, we signed the agreement.
我们同意了，然后各国政府却表示反对。
We said yes, and then various world governments decided that they didn't like it.
然后——
And-
所以反垄断介入，阻止了这笔交易。
So antitrust got involved, and they blocked the deal.
反垄断这个说法有点笼统。
Antitrust is kind of a broad way to refer to it.
但是有美国、欧盟、CMA，而且现在的氛围和几年前完全不一样——
But you have the United States, European Union, CMA, and it's a very different vibe in-
然后他们说——
And they said-
……和几年前相比，现在完全不同了。
... a few years ago than today
……Adobe 会干掉一个大的竞争对手。
... Adobe would be taking out a big competitor.
他们说了很多。
They said a lot of things.
他们说了很多。
They said a lot of things.
但我觉得，对我们来说最重要的是，我们一直在加速前进。
But the, I think, most important part for us was that we just kept putting our foot on the gas.
对，我原本以为我们会顺利通过，但才过了一两个月，就明显看出不是那么回事了。
Yeah, I thought it would be like we would just go right through, and as soon as a month or two in, it was clear that was not the case.
事情就变成了，好吧，我们整个组织必须真正全力以赴——
It kind of became, okay, we got to really power through as an organization here-
……然后推出并打造接下来的产品。
... and ship and build the next stuff.
因为如果我们不全力以赴、不继续加油，那另一边会是什么？
Because if we don't power through and keep our foot on the gas, what's on the other side?
我们不知道另一边是什么。
We don't know what's on the other side.
我们必须确保无论发生什么，一切都没问题。
We got to make sure everything's fine no matter what.
所以这是2023年。
So this is 2023.
你们当时有多少员工？
How many employees did you have?
我想说大概1100到1200人吧。
I want to say it was about 1,100, 1,200.
我得再确认一下。
I have to double-check.
好的，我听到这个故事的时候特别感兴趣，我记得我是在2024年3月见到你的。
Okay, so when I heard this story, I was fascinated by, and I think I saw you in 2024, March of '24.
不知道你还记不记得我跟你说过，对我来说，告诉一家初创公司的1200名员工，我们本来有史上最惊人的退出之一，200亿美元的退出，但这事不会发生了，这个故事本身就很震撼。
I don't know if you remember I mentioned this to you, but for me, the story of telling 1,200 employees of a startup, we have one of the most incredible exits in history, $20 billion exit of this company, and it's not going to happen.
当你站在所有人面前，告诉大家‘伙计们，这事不会发生了’，那场全员大会是什么样的？
What was the all hands like when you get in front of everyone and you tell everyone, "Guys, this isn't going to happen"?
而且，当有些人可能觉得脚下的地板都塌了的时候，你怎么让大家重新聚焦在经营业务上，继续往前走？
And how do you get everyone to realign on building a business and continuing forward when it feels like the floor, for some people, may have felt like the floor fell out from under them?
嗯，我觉得你得记住监管审查的时间有多长，这肯定需要想办法改进，因为如果情况真的是反竞争的——我仍然不认为Adobe那件事是反竞争的，至少我是这么觉得的。
Well, I think you have to remember the length of the regulatory review, which definitely needs to be fixed somehow because if you're in a situation where it's actually anti-competitive, which I still don't believe that Adobe thing was, for what it's worth.
网上很多人可能会说是，至少当时他们这么说，但我觉得他们的论据很薄弱，他们是在打过去的仗，没有看到未来，没有看到这一切会变成什么样。
A lot of people on the internet probably would say it is, or at least they did back then, but I thought their arguments were poor, and they were fighting past battles, not looking at the future and what this all would become.
我这么说不是因为我——我也很高兴能独立。
And I say that not because I'm not-- I'm stoked to be independent, too.
我很高兴能继续领导Figma。
I'm stoked to be running Figma.
当初和Adobe的计划，也就是继续领导Figma。
That was the plan for Adobe, was just to run Figma.
不管怎样，能领导Figma，我就很开心。
Either way, running Figma, I'm happy.
独立运营，我们确实行动很快。
Independently, we do move fast.
对此我很感激。
I'm grateful for that.
但回到你的问题，我们经历了16个月的监管审查。
But going back to your question, it's like we had 16 months of regulatory review.
对任何公司来说，16个月的监管审查都是很折磨人的。
Sixteen months of regulatory review for any company is punishing.
而在真正的反竞争情况下，这对其中一方来说可能是非常具有破坏性的。
And in an actual anti-competitive situation, that can be very destructive for one of the parties.
或者两家都受影响。
Or both.
我觉得Roomba其实是个很好的例子。
And I think Roomba's a great example, actually.
Roomba本来要被收购的。
Roomba was going to be acquired.
小交易。
Small deal.
对，不是什么大交易。
Yeah, it wasn't a crazy deal.
确实挺大的，对。
It was a huge, yeah.
但他们想惩罚亚马逊，所以就没让这笔交易通过。
But they wanted to punish Amazon, and so they did not let it go through.
结果Roomba破产了，整个市场基本上都让给了中国。
And because of that, Roomba went bankrupt, and the entire market at the time basically went to China.
所以从美国的角度来看，这完全没有道理。
So from the United States' standpoint, it made no sense.
总之，我有点跑题了，但我确实觉得这是个重要的点，而且这里面有些政策问题，就是说当你追求理想主义的时候，它并不总是实际帮助美国的。
Anyway, I go on a tangent, but I do think it's an important point, and there's some policy stuff here that's like when you go for the idealism, it doesn't always practically help America.
但这也是个重要的点，那就是现在几乎所有的市场都比历史上更广阔。
But it's also an important point, which is almost all markets now are more expansive than they have been historically.
而且几乎任何看起来像是“哦，这就是市场”的东西。
And nearly anything that looks like, oh, it's the market.
实际上并不是市场。
That's not actually the market.
市场其实是AI，结果发现。
The market is AI, it turns out.
没错。
Exactly.
市场是巨大的，而这个交易只占市场的1%和0.2%。
The market is this massive market, and this deal is 1% and 0.2% of the market.
对，就像你定义市场，是回顾历史，这是监管者唯一合理的做法，还是像技术专家那样向前看？
Yeah, it's like, do you define the market looking back at the history, which is the only logical way you do it as a regulator, or do you do it as a technologist looking forward?
这在思考市场大小方面可能会有很大不同——
And that could be very different in terms of how you think-
……关于市场规模。
... about markets by sizes.
但不管怎样，全员大会。
But any case, the all hands.
那其实是寒假的第一天，挺搞笑的。
It was actually the first day of a winter break, which is pretty funny.
所以我们之前跟大家说：‘好，享受假期吧。’
So we had told everybody, "Okay, enjoy the holidays."
假期期间我们的流量其实少很多，因为我们是工作产品。
We actually have way less traffic during the holidays because we're a work product.
那天是周五，然后周末我们意识到，好吧，这事要有个结果了。
And that was a Friday, and then realized over the weekend, okay, this is going to come to a conclusion.
然后周一早上，我给大家发了消息说：“嘿，中午开全员大会，想参加就拨进来，这是怎么回事，这是全部细节。”
And on Monday morning, sent a message to everybody saying, "Hey, all hands at noon, and dial in if you like, and here's what's going on, and here's the full details."
首先，公司里很多人都来了。
And first of all, so much of the company showed up.
看到这么多人出席，真的很棒，毕竟还是放假第一天。
That was awesome just to see the turnout, first day of break, really.
其次，我觉得大家的心情是如释重负，不是因为不是Adobe，而是因为不再有不确定性了。
And secondly, I'd say just the mood was relief because it wasn't about relief of not Adobe, it was relief of not having ambiguity.
那么长时间的不确定性真的很难熬。
To have ambiguity that long is really intense.
人们不得不在脑子里同时装着两种可能。
And people have to kind of have two worlds in their head.
他们不太确定未来会怎样。
They're not exactly sure what the future holds.
所以当时的气氛就是这样。
So that was the immediate mood.
就是感觉轻松多了。
It was just kind of lighter.
然后从那时起，对，我觉得你问的问题很对。
And then from there, yeah, I think that the question you asked is right.
怎么确保每个人都全力以赴？
How do you make sure everyone's all in?
我们的做法是，我说：“听着，”我在公司Slack上发了个视频，还给每个人都发了邮件，说：“嘿，如果你辛苦工作后觉得累了，如果你是在这段时间加入、以为自己要去Adobe工作的人，而实际上创业公司不适合你，请知道我们会非常努力地工作，拼命干，而且不丢人。”
And the way that we did it was we said, "Look," I just put a video out into the company Slack and emailed everybody and said, "Hey, if you're tired after working really hard, if you're someone who joined during this period thinking you're going to go work at Adobe, and actually the startup thing is not for you, please know we're going to be working very hard, hustling hard, and no shame.
我们还是好聚好散。
We're still on good terms.
如果你想离开，这里有几个月工资。
If you want to leave, here is a few months' pay.
你随时可以告诉我们。
And you're welcome to just let us know.
我们会让一切变得非常简单。
We'll make it super easy.
从那时起，要等六个月才能重新申请。
And from there, it's six months before you can reapply.
这是唯一的条件。
That's the only condition.
六个月后，你可以重新申请，我们会重新面试你。
After six months, you can reapply, and we'll re-interview you."
实际上，接受这个提议的人比例很小。
And it was a pretty small percentage of people that took us up on that.
但总的来说，这是健康的。
But overall, it was healthy.
有些人甚至彻底改变了职业方向，走上了完全不同的人生道路。
And some people actually ended up doing total career pivots, like in wild ways, went on different life paths.
我觉得这对每个人都有好处。
I think it was healthy for everyone.
你继续发展业务。
You continue to build the business.
它一直在增长。
It grows.
你们上市了。
You go public.
我想快进到今年早些时候。
And I just want to fast-forward to earlier this year.
你们宣布了与Anthropic的合作，Claude Design。
You guys announced a partnership with Anthropic, Claude Design
不完全对。
Not quite.
我们一直和Anthropic作为合作伙伴合作，而且——
We had been working with Anthropic as a partner and-
作为连接方。
As a connector
……Anthropic单独宣布了Cloud Design。
... Anthropic separately announced Cloud Design.
是的。
Yes.
哦，抱歉。
Oh, sorry.
对，没错。
Yeah, that's right.
但你们年初的时候跟他们有一个连接器合作，对吧。
But you had a connector with them that you announced earlier in the year.
对，我们有一个MCP。
Yeah, we have an MCP.
我们——
We-
MCP。
MCP
……和很多公司都有合作，但确实是这样。
... are partnered with many companies, but yeah.
然后他们发布了Cloud Design。
Then they announced Cloud Design.
他们这么做的时候，你感到意外吗？
Was that surprising to you when they did that?
他们推出Cloud Design的时候，你有多担心，相对于你们当时提供的产品？
And how worried were you when they came out with Cloud Design relative to what you guys were offering?
因为市场看到后就说：“天哪，Figma完了。”
Because the market looked at it and said, "Oh my God, Figma's dead.
Claude会把Figma碾压的。”
Claude is going to crush Figma."
现在网上的讨论就是这样，一会儿说“我们回来了”，一会儿说“彻底完了”。
The nature of online discourse right now is, we're so back, it's so over.
这只是一个循环，对吧？
And it's just a cycle, right?
有多少次——
How many times have-
……你最近一个月是不是到处跑？
... you been all over-
……上个月你去了好多地方吧？
... in the last month?
是的。
Yes.
大概——
Probably-
……好多次我都不知道。
... a bunch of times I don't even know about.
对。
Yes.
而且——
And-
大家都完蛋了。
Everyone's dead.
……
...
我觉得那时候我已经习惯了。
I think I was used to that at that point.
因为当你死过那么多次，然后发现自己其实没死——
Because when you die so many times, and then you're actually not dead-
你会在某个时刻意识到，也许这不是真相。
... you realize at some point maybe this is not the truth.
社交媒体其实不是现实。
Social media is actually not reality.
不过说实话，我对那种交流方式还是感到挺惊讶的。
But yeah, I was overall surprised at the way that kind of communication happened.
我觉得，你看，通常每个人都想做好事。
I think that, look, everybody wants to do good usually.
当然也有例外，但大多数情况下，我是这么看人的。
There's some exceptions, but for the most part, that's what I assume for people.
他们想赢，想做好事。
They want to win, they want to do good.
而且我觉得像Anthropic这样快速扩张的组织，历史上有没有过扩张这么快的例子？
And I think that organizations scaling really fast, Anthropic, are there any examples of organizations scaling that fast ever?
从来没有。
Never.
内部很容易变得混乱和纠结。
It can get very confused and mixed up internally.
因此，奇怪的事情可能会发生。
And due to that, weird stuff can happen.
而且我觉得，确实，我们刚刚经历了一段奇怪的沟通风波。
And I think that it's just the case that, yeah, we are on the other side of a weird bout of communication there.
而且——
And-
这对你的生意有影响吗？
Did it affect your business?
哦，没有。没有达到任何显著的程度。
Oh, no. Not any degree that was significant.
因为我在那个公告之后读了你们的季度报告。
Because I read your quarterly report after that announcement.
你们同比增长了48%，业务基本上加速增长了。
You guys grew 48% year over year, and the business basically accelerated its growth.
所以我看着这个，当时大家都有SaaSpocalypse——
So I'm looking at that and this was when everyone had the SaaSpocalypse-
……这个论点，而且我是SaaSpocalypse的坚定支持者，但我确实认为有很多方法可以区分SaaS公司，其中之一就是创始人主导的。
... thesis in general, and I was a big subscriber to SaaSpocalypse, but I do think that there's a bunch of ways to distinguish SaaS companies, one of which I think is founder-led.
而且我认为用户体验非常重要，嵌入式用户体验，以及在此基础上构建的能力，特别是如果你作为创始人知道如何利用AI来加速和重塑你的业务。
And I think that there's user experience that matters a lot, embedded user experience, and the ability to build from there, especially if you know how to use AI to accelerate and reinvent your business as a founder, particularly.
但你们的业务加速了。
But your business accelerated.
是的。
Yep.
不，它一直在表现良好，而且我觉得，你看，模型公司和产品之间的难点在于，产品到底是什么？
No, it's been continuing to do well, and I think that, look, the hard part about model companies and product is what is the product?
是模型本身吗？
Is it the model?
还是上面的用户界面？
Is it the UI on top?
还是两者的某种结合？
Is it some hybrid of both?
如果是结合，那权重怎么分配？
If it's a hybrid, how is it weighted?
不管怎样——
And in any case-
你说的是像Anthropic、OpenAI这样的公司——
You're talking about an Anthropic, an OpenAI-
还有Gemini。
... Gemini.
不管是编程工具还是像你刚才提到的Cloud Design这样的产品，我觉得人们很容易把模型的进步误认为是产品的进步。
Whether it's a harness for coding or it's a product like Cloud Design, which you just mentioned, I think it's easy to mistake model progress for product progress.
实际上，像Figma这样的工具，我们花了很长时间来构建，也花了很长时间来确保用户的工作流程是正确的，而且我们还有很多工作要做。
The reality is a tool like Figma has taken a very long time to build, and a very long time to make sure that we get the workflows right for our users, and we still have work to do.
我们的用户会告诉你这一点。
Our users will tell you that.
我们一直在努力让它变得更好。
And we're always trying to make it better.
所以我觉得，当你在核心用户旅程和工作流程方面还有很多工作要做，才能满足专业人士的需求时，它没有立刻火起来或者什么的，这并不奇怪。
So I think that it's not surprising that it wasn't an instant hit or something when there's actually quite a lot of work on the just core user journey workflow side that you have to do to meet the needs of professionals.
现在，他们把Cloud Design做成了一个广泛的产品，试图涵盖很多功能。
Now, they've made Cloud Design into a product that is broad, so it's trying to do a lot of things.
你去他们的主页，会看到海报之类的，还有平面设计场景，我相信。
You'll see posters and stuff as well, graphic design scenarios, I believe, when you go to their homepage.
也许他们在某些领域会做得很好，在其他领域就不一定了。
And maybe they'll do well in some areas and not in other areas.
我对这个产品既不看好也不看衰。
I'm not bullish or bearish on the product.
我觉得给专业人士做好设计工具本身就很难。
I think it's just hard to make good design tools for professionals.
对，设计的东西太多了，而且——
Yeah, there's a lot of things to design and-
对，而且——
Yeah, and also-
……设计的类别也很多。
... a lot of categories of design
……它的手感就像乐器一样。
... the feel of it is like an instrument.
你得把手感调对，把机制做对。
You have to get the feel right, you have to get the mechanics right.
我们在这方面每一个细节都下了功夫，多年来也收到了很多反馈，知道大家喜欢什么、不喜欢什么。
And we've stressed every detail of that and have had a lot of feedback over the years about what people like and don't like.
这取决于他们来自哪里。
It depends on where they're coming from.
这取决于他们的任务以及他们总体上想做什么。
It depends on their task and what they're trying to overall do.
而且场景太多了。
And there's so many scenarios.
但总的来说，我认为软件的模式比SaaSpocalypse所暗示的要多，软件作为一个类别并不是非好即坏的。
But overall, I think that there are more modes for software than are implied by the SaaSpocalypse, and it's not like software as a category is binary, good or bad.
还有很多其他方式可以确保你长期维持自己，作为软件公司或应用层公司，长期拥有增长的业务。
There are plenty of other ways that you can make sure that you're able to sustain yourself long term, and you have a growing business long term as a software company or app layer company.
部分原因是，是的，如果你尽可能专注于目标受众，了解你的受众，并为他们而建，这很重要。
And part of it is, yes, if you're as specialized as possible on a target audience, and you know your audience, and you're building for them, that is something that matters.
我认为一个很好的例子就是Cursor。
And I think a great example of this is Cursor.
Cursor，按理说，不应该以那种方式增长。
Cursor, by all means, should not have grown the way they did.
那些前沿实验室都在用他们自己的模型追赶Cursor，而Cursor当时连一个模型都没有。
You've got all these frontier labs that are chasing them with their own models before Cursor had a model of any kind.
但Cursor确实非常专注于用户。
But yet Cursor really obsessed over the user.
他们能预见未来的趋势。
They saw around corners.
他们制定了战略。
They strategized.
他们确保为客户做正确的事情。
They made sure they were doing the right thing for the customer.
他们取得了巨大的成功。
And they've had an incredible success.
我觉得这非常了不起，而且我认为这个例子会在很多不同类型的公司中重演。
And I think it's amazing, and I think it's an example that will be repeated across many different types of companies.
SaaS并没有死。
SaaS is not dead.
我觉得说所有SaaS公司都没问题，这并不对。
Well, I think that it's not true that all SaaS companies are fine.
但说所有SaaS公司都完蛋了，也不对。
And it's also not true that all SaaS companies are dead.
有道理。
Fair enough.
保护自然常常被贴上反增长的标签。
Protecting nature is often labeled anti-growth.
但保护基金不同意这种看法。
The Conservation Fund disagrees.
他们认为保护土地、野生动物和户外活动空间，与经济发展是相辅相成的。
They believe protecting land, wildlife, and outdoor access goes hand in hand with economic opportunity.
四十年来，他们以市场速度行动，在支持当地社区的同时，保护濒危土地。
For 40 years, they've moved with market speed to protect at-risk land while supporting local communities.
他们在全美50个州保护了九百万英亩的土地，证明了他们能带来既有利于社区又有利于自然的持久成果。
With nine million acres protected across all 50 states, The Conservation Fund is proving that they deliver lasting outcomes that benefit communities and nature.
更多信息请访问 conservationfund.org。
Learn more at conservationfund.org.
我全力以赴。
I'm going all in.
在一个人工智能和代理式人工智能的世界里，我作为人类，有能力去提示说：“我想做出一个看起来像、感觉像、并且能做X的东西。”然后这个神奇的技术就起飞了，把它做出来了，我最终得到了一个产品。
In a world of AI, agentic AI, I have this capacity to prompt as a human and say, "I want to make something that looks like, feels like, and does X." And this magical technology takes off and does it, and I end up with a product.
有时候产品很棒，有时候产品很糟糕，但这正在提高这些工具做到这一点的能力。
Sometimes the product is great, sometimes the product sucks, but it's improving the ability for these tools to do that.
以前，我需要一个产品经理、一个设计师、一堆工程师来实际构建产品，无论是软件产品还是硬件产品。
Historically, I would've needed a product manager, a designer, a bunch of engineers to do the actual building of the product, whether it's a software product or a hardware product.
但越来越多地，似乎人工智能正在承担越来越多的这些工作。
Increasingly, though, it seems like AI is doing more and more of those tools.
你能不能给我讲讲你对这个时代人类创造力的未来的看法，这个我们正步入的未来时代，这个我们正在坠入的奇点？
Can you just give me your view on the future of human creativity in this era, this future era that we're waltzing into, the singularity we're falling into?
人类创造力在哪里发挥作用，哪些空白还需要填补，才能把人类创造力带到实现的时刻？
Where does human creativity play a role, and where do the gaps still need to be filled for taking human creativity to the realization moment?
我觉得我们确实在用AI降低门槛，让所有的制作，不管是代码、动画、视频、设计，还是别的什么，只要是数字化的，都在降低门槛，让它们更容易实现。
It's the case, I think, that we're lowering the bar with AI, making it so that all of the production, whether it's code or it's motion, video, design, whatever, you name it, if it's digital, you're lowering the bar to make it happen.
每个人都能参与其中，这变得更加民主化了。
Everyone can be part of that, and it's more democratized.
讽刺的是，我以前甚至几年前还说过，在我们每年的用户大会Config上，我说：“AI会提高上限。”
Ironically, and I used to believe, even a few years ago, I said it, our annual user conference config, I said, "The ceiling will be raised by AI.
你将能做出比以前更伟大的事情。”
You'll be able to do greater things than before."
那是我错了。
That was wrong.
上限其实没变。
The ceiling has stayed the same.
AI并没有提高上限。
AI is not raising the ceiling.
但人类在提高上限。
Humans are raising the ceiling, though.
那些创意人员、设计师，当他们选择专注、投入时间，并且大胆尝试别人从未做过的事情时，我们才会看到天花板被抬高。
The creatives, the designers out there, when they choose to focus, invest their time, and to be bold and try to do something that no one else has ever done before, that's when we see the ceiling raised.
在那个时候，问题就变成了：你在乎自己是否处于分发中心吗？
And at that point, it's a question of do you care about being in the center of distribution?
你在乎的是平庸或平均的结果吗？
Do you care about a mean or average result?
这对你的任务来说够用吗？
Is that sufficient for your task?
还是你需要一些能体现你用心、你花了时间去真正做出这个东西的东西？
Or do you need something that shows that you care, that you took the time to actually go make this thing?
你需要超越最低标准吗？
Do you need to go and be beyond what is the minimum bar?
在软件设计和产品领域，我们看到的软件数量比以往任何时候都多得多。
And in the world of software design and product, we're seeing exponentially more software than ever before.
这正是你所预料到的。
It's exactly what you'd predict.
这种指数增长还在继续。
The exponential continues.
你看看App Store的数据。
You look at App Store numbers.
App Store的数据也完全是同样的指数增长，但我们看到应用的使用和利用率却持平了。
The App Store numbers are exactly that same exponential, and we're seeing that the usage and utilization of apps flat.
所以人们使用的应用数量差不多，但你能获取的应用数量却比以往任何时候都多，而且还在增长。
So people are using just the same amount of apps, but the amount of apps that you can get, it's bigger than ever and growing.
我觉得这恰恰说明，如果你在开发任何软件，你都需要让自己与众不同。
And I think it just speaks to, okay, there's a need to differentiate yourself if you're building any kind of software.
那怎么做呢？
Well, how do you do that?
不是靠代码，因为现在谁都能写代码。
It's not code, because anyone can create code now.
那已经不是难点了。
That's not the hard part anymore.
展开剩余字幕（还有 211 条）
所以我的看法是，设计就是新的代码。
So my view is design is the new code.
它是上面那一层。
It's the layer above.
你得让你的设计有差异化，而且你得有自己的观点，还要有好的品牌和营销。
You have to make it so that your design is differentiated, and you have to have a point of view and a good brand in marketing.
而观点，我觉得是最容易被忽略的部分。
And the point of view, I think, is the part that is probably missed the most.
那是人的部分。
That's the human part.
不只是人的部分，也是人们不太愿意拥有的部分。
It's not just the human part, it's also the part that humans are uncomfortable having.
我觉得大家害怕说出不是共识的话。
I think that folks are scared to say something that's not consensus.
确实如此。
It's so true.
这就是最伟大的艺术家、最伟大的商业领袖、最伟大的政治家一直展现出来的东西，那就是敢于勇敢，敢于说别人不敢说的话，做别人不敢做的事，而这正是改变世界的力量。
This is what the greatest artists, the greatest business leaders, the greatest politicians have always demonstrated, is the willingness to be brave, to say and do the things that no one else would say or do, and that's what changes the world.
我还想把喜剧演员也加进去。
And I would also add comedians to the mix, too.
还有喜剧演员。
And comedians.
喜剧演员被低估了。
Comedians are underappreciated.
去年我们活动上请了托尼·欣奇克利夫……因为他是现在这个“取消文化”时代里，少数几个敢说敢做的人之一。
I had Tony Hinchcliffe at our thing last year- ... because he's one of the few guys that is willing to say and do things nowadays in the cancel culture era.
但喜剧演员常常用一种人们……
But comedians often speak truth in a way that people-
没错
That's right
……否则听不到的方式说出真相。
... otherwise couldn't hear.
愿意说出那些话。
Willing to say things.
而且这跟政治正确无关。
And it's not about political correctness.
关键在于，你有没有一个能超越噪音、并且能持续保持影响力的信息？
It's about do you have a message that can rise above the noise and do so in a sustained way?
因为看看现在的社交媒体。
Because look at social media right now.
每一个独特的观点，每一个有趣的东西，都会瞬间被社交媒体的大海淹没。
Every unique point of view, everything interesting, it gets diffused into the ether of social media instantly.
所以，除非你有一些能让你持续产出内容的东西，以及一个真正经久不衰的信息——因为它远远超出了主流讨论的框架——否则你根本无法突破重围，获得任何关注，而注意力经济是非常残酷的。
And so unless you've got something that allows you to keep generating content and a message that is really evergreen because it's so outside of the Overton window, you're not going to be able to actually break through and have any attention, and the attention economy is ruthless.
这也是人类创造力的本质吗？
Is this also what human creativity is?
如果你做的事情不是前所未有的，那你不是在创造，而是在模仿。
If you're not doing something that's never been done before, you're not creating something, you're mimicking something.
你是在复制别人的东西。
You're copying something.
你是在复印别人的东西。
You're Xeroxing something.
但要做新的事情才是创造，而新意味着做从未做过的事情。
But to do something new is to create, and newness requires doing things that have never been done before.
对，按定义来说就是这样。
Yeah, by definition.
按定义来说。
By definition.
因此，你是在这个训练分布之外运作。这不仅仅是偏离分布均值的问题，如果你只是简单提示而没有高级框架，你只会从均值开始。
And therefore, you are operating outside of this distribution of training It's not even about operating outside the mean of the distribution, which is where you start if you're just prompting without any kind of advanced scaffolding around it.
但你实际上是在做突破性的事情，而且是独特的，我确实认为市场会奖励这种创新。
But you're actually doing something that is breaking through, and it's unique, and I do think that will be rewarded by the market.
每个人都会看到。
Everyone's going to see it.
我觉得这在组织的注意力市场上也会得到回报。
I think it's even rewarded by the attention market of organizations.
我已经听到很多人说，'唉，今天又收到一个AI做的演示文稿。'
I'm already hearing from so many like, "Ugh, I got another deck made by AI today."
完全同意。
Totally.
我甚至不知道做那个演示文稿的人，我不知道他们有没有读过它。
And I don't even know if the person who made it, I don't know if they read it.
他们自己知道里面写了什么吗？
Do they even know what's in their deck?
在Figma，我们其实做了一件很简单的事，我们说，'嘿，如果你用AI写任何东西，就在开头写上'用AI写的'。'
And at Figma, we actually made it so that it was just a simple thing, but we said, "Hey, if you are using AI in your writing of any kind, just put at the top, 'Written with AI.'"
非常简单，非常容易遵守。
Very simple, very easy to follow.
虽然内部有人开玩笑，但大家确实这么做了。
And people made jokes about it internally, but people do it.
这样一来，我们都能信任，当我们看到某个东西时，知道它被认真对待过，值得花时间去理解。
And it makes it so that we can all trust that when we see something, we know that it's been cared for enough that it's worth your time to process.
我觉得我们会在信任这个问题上看到一些分化。
And I think that we're going to see some bifurcation here around trust.
而获得信任的一种方式，就是亲手去做一些事情。
And one way to get trust is to do something with your hands.
另一个重要的点是，如果你脑子里有一个愿景，或者对某个东西的设计、外观或体验有明确的看法，我觉得用AI来起步是很好的。
The other point that's important is if you have a vision or if you have a point of view in your head of how something should be designed or look aesthetically or from an experiential standpoint, I think it's great to start with building with AI.
它能帮你解决面对空白页面或空白画布的问题。
It gives you something to get past the blank page, blank canvas problem.
然后你可以对它做出反应，说：“这些是我所有不喜欢的地方。
You can then react to it and say, "Here are all the things I don't like.
我要去把这些地方改掉。
I'm going to go fix these things.
我要把它们改一改。”
I'm going to change them up."
因为来回互动真的很有帮助。
Because it's really helpful to have a back and forth.
但如果你有自己的想法，却完全依赖AI来实现，那你其实是在通过AI的视角来做，而AI有它自己的偏好。
But if you have your own vision and you're trusting AI to implement it, you're doing it through the lens of AI, and AI has its own distribution.
模型拟合出来的，对。
The model fit by it, yeah.
所以你不会得到完全想要的东西。
And so you're not going to get exactly what you want.
如果你能两者兼顾，这正是我们在Figma里想做到的，把代码变成画布上的素材。
Now, if you're able to do both, and that's what we're trying to enable in Figma, make code a material on the canvas.
让你可以先从构建开始。
Make it so that you can go start by building.
如果你喜欢，你可以通过构建来思考。
You can build to think if you like.
但当你想要动手思考和创作时，你也可以做到。
But also, when you want to think and work with your hands, you can do that, too.
然后快速来回切换。
And go back and forth rapidly.
我记得Photoshop刚出来那会儿，我就是个重度用户了。
I remember the early days of Photoshop just having been an avid user from the early days.
图层功能出来的时候大家都疯了，后来各种滤镜出来的时候也疯了，还有Kai's Power Tools出来的时候，大家都在说：“摄影师还有什么用啊？”
People freaked out when layers happened, and then they freaked out when all the filters came out and when Kai's Power Tools came out and everyone was like, "What's the role of the photographer anymore?"
感觉就像你在毁掉摄影艺术，毁掉摄影的创意。
It's like you're destroying the art of photography, the creativity of photography.
但它开启了一个新的创意时代，因为出现了新的艺术家，他们能用这些滤镜、图层工具和能力，重新想象画布上可能实现的东西。
But it unleashed a new era of creativity because now these new artists emerged that could use these filters and use these layering tools and capabilities to reimagine what's possible on a canvas.
这基本上就是一套新工具。
And it was basically a new toolkit.
这并不意味着老一代的创意人就能完美适应新的创意系统和工具。
It doesn't mean that the old creatives mapped perfectly to the new creative system and tools.
但由此确实爆发了创意和人类潜能的增长，我们在各个方面都突破了界限。
But there was an explosion in creativity and human potential that arose from this, and we pushed boundaries in all sorts of ways.
感觉我们可能又要进入那个时代了。
Feels like we might be entering that era again.
我对此深信不疑，而且我觉得部分原因就是我之前讲的市场动态。
I'm a big believer in that, and I think that part of it is what I described about market dynamics.
为了吸引注意力，为了获得参与度，为了让人们在乎，你必须做出新东西。
In order to get attention, in order to get engagement, in order to get people to care, you have to do something new.
你必须真正大胆，敢于尝试那些有魄力的事情。
You have to actually be daring and try things that are bold.
对改变的抵制是真实存在的，而且关于你的观点，其实有个很棒的东西你可以去谷歌搜一下。
The resistance to change is real, and there's a great thing you can Google, actually, for your point.
去搜一下图层功能刚推出时的邮件列表。
Look up the mailing list for when Layers was introduced.
然后你会看到人们都在说：“这是史上最糟糕的东西。”
And it's like people going, "This is the worst thing ever."
你谷歌一下就能找到。
And you can find it if you Google.
这个邮件列表是公开的，你可以看到所有的反应。
It's on a mailing list that's publicly available, and you can see all the reactions.
完全同意。
Totally.
但显然，它后来成了未来的趋势。
But obviously, it became the future.
而且我觉得世界上仍然有摄影师在做着很棒的工作，但说实话，更大的颠覆其实是手机摄像头。
And I think that there's also still photographers in the world who are doing incredible work, but the bigger disruption, if we're going to be real, it was the camera phone.
正是因为它，人们不再购买专门用于拍照的相机，因为最好的相机就是你随身携带的那一个。
That was what made it so that people stopped buying cameras that were dedicated to the task of photography because the best camera is the one that's on you.
人们开始用Instagram和手机摄像头以不同的方式对待摄影。
And started treating photography in a different way with Instagram and their camera phone.
所以对很多人来说，这带来了转变，我无法告诉你结果是更好还是更糟，但确实发生了变化。
So it transformed for a lot of people, and I can't tell you if it's better or worse as a result, but there was change.
有一种关于人类创造力的观点认为，创造力本质上是在潜意识中连接你一生中看到、经历过或输入过的各种点，包括感官输入。
There's one view on human creativity that human creativity is basically connecting dots in the unconscious that you've had, seen, or experienced all of these things in your life or in your set of inputs, sensory inputs.
从这些输入中，你把点连起来，然后推断出一个以前可能没见过的未来视角。
And from those inputs, you connect dots, and then you extrapolate a forward view of things that hasn't perhaps been seen in the world before.
你同意这种关于创造力的看法吗？这和AI实际做的事情有区别吗？
Do you agree with that view on creativity, and is it distinct from actually what AI does?
而且，我想再次回到AI时代人类的独特性这个话题。
And again, I want to go back to the uniqueness of the human in an AI era.
嗯，我觉得人类的一个特点是他们总是在追求新奇。
Well, I think that one thing that happens with humans is they're always seeking novelty.
我们的奖励机制和AI的不一样。
Our reward function is different than an AI's.
我们的损失函数也不一样。
Also, our loss function.
如果我打开这瓶水，泼你一身，你生气了，我肯定不会再这么做。
If I was to open this bottle of water and splash it all over you and you got mad at me, you bet I'm not going to do that again.
但AI通过强化学习，你得反复告诉它很多次：“不，你不能这么做。”
But an AI, with RL, you really tell it a bunch of times that, "No, you don't do that."
机器人，别踢我了。
Robot, stop kicking me.
嗯，也许随着时间推移，架构会改变，但总的来说，人脑和我们目前用AI造出来的系统是不同的。
Well, and maybe that'll change with architectures over time, but overall, the brain is different than the current systems that we've made with AI.
而且我觉得这还是个未知数。
And I think that it's unknown.
我们对神经科学整体上了解得不多。
We don't know much about neuroscience overall.
我希望有一天我们都能对神经科学了解更多，但在创造力方面，确实存在根本性的不同。
I'd love to get to the point where we all know more about neuroscience, but something is fundamentally different there when it comes to creativity.
我还觉得设计和创造力是两回事。
And I also think design is different than creativity.
这不仅仅是创造力，还涉及解决问题，就像我之前提到的。
It's not just creativity, it's also problem-solving, like I mentioned earlier.
这两者的结合让我觉得特别迷人，因为你要面对一个用户，要解决他们的需求，还要用一种有创意、能打动他们的方式去做。
And the combination of the two is, I just find it fascinating because you have a user, you're trying to solve their needs, you're trying to do so in a way that stands out as creative and it connects with them.
而且，你还得跟更大的系统联系起来，比如营销品牌、文化、商业问题等等。
And also, you have to connect to wider systems, the marketing brand, the culture, the business problems, and so on.
在脑子里同时处理这些不同层面的抽象，还要努力交付一个界面或流程，从搜索的角度来看，这简直是指数级的爆炸，真的挺酷的。
And holding all that in your head at different levels of abstraction while trying to deliver a screen or a flow, that from a search-based standpoint can be a combinatorial explosion, is just pretty cool.
这太迷人了。
It's pretty fascinating.
我个人其实特别兴奋，因为想到可以重塑现有的艺术形式和媒体，让AI实现更动态的生成，创作者可以提升一个层次，设定一堆参数，但不必亲自渲染最终成品。
I'm actually personally really excited about the idea of reinventing existing art form and media where AI can enable more dynamic generation, where the creator steps up a level, sets a bunch of parameters, but doesn't actually necessarily render the final product.
但最终成品，就像在电子游戏里那样——
But the final product, sort of like in a video game-
……是在用户面前实时渲染出来的。
... is rendered on the fly with the user in front of it.
但创作者，比如电子游戏背后的创意团队，是在构建所有的对象。
But the creator, the creative team behind a video game, for example, is building all of the objects.
他们构建故事情节，构建叙事流程，而最终的呈现则更加动态。
They're building the storyline, they're building the narrative flow, and the realization of that is much more dynamic.
但我觉得它会慢慢渗透到更多——
But I feel like it's going to find its way, it's going to leach its way into many more-
完全同意
Totally
——不同的媒介里。
... different media.
我们也有相关的产品。
We have products around that too.
比如在Figma Design里，你可以用生成工具和着色器，基本上就能实现那种效果。
Like in Figma Design, you can have generative tools and shaders where you can do very much that.
或者我们有个产品叫Weave，它基本上是一个基于节点的系统。
Or we have a product called Weave, and Weave is basically a node-based system.
你可以把模型的输出连接到其他输入，等等。
You can connect model outputs into other inputs and such.
整个理念就是，用AI生成本身没问题，但你需要一种方式来塑造这个黏土。
And the whole idea is, it's not bad to generate with AI, but you need a way to craft that clay.
你需要一种方法来塑造它。
You need a way to mold it.
而且，通过Weave，人们做出了最惊人的视频和照片作品。
And, with Weave, people do the most amazing video and photo work.
总的来说，用它能达到的效果真是令人难以置信。
And overall, just the outcomes that are achievable with it are incredible.
所以，是的，我觉得如果你有意图，如果你真的在乎去做这项工作，你总能得到更好的结果。
So yeah, I think that if you've got the intention, if you actually care to do the work, you can always get to a better result.
而且，每当新模型发布，人们就会经历那种AI狂热的几天，我觉得这也被算法推送助长了。
And people, new model drops, there's like this AI psychosis moment that people are in for a few days, and it's, I think, also aided by algo feeds.
完全同意。
Totally.
最好的结果会浮出水面。
The best results rise to the top.
每个人都说：‘这个模型就是一切。’
Everyone's like, "This model is everything."
然后过了几天，大家就说，"好吧，好吧。
And then a few days later, it's, "Okay, okay.
我知道这个模型的主要套路了。"
I know the kind of main tropes of the model."
而且你适应得很快。
And you adapt fast.
新鲜感就没了。
The novelty's gone.
它不再是什么能让你兴奋或者刺激你多巴胺系统的东西了。
It no longer is a thing that's kind of rewarding you or firing off your dopamine system or whatever.
相反，你会想，"好吧，对，它总是那样。
And instead you're like, "Okay, well, yeah, it always does that thing.
我怎么才能超越它？"
How do I move past it?"
这似乎就是我们一直循环的模式，挺有意思的，因为模型在数学、网络安全这些正式领域里变得越来越强。
And that seems to be the continued loop we're in, which is sort of fascinating because models keep getting so good when it comes to these formal domains, math, cybersecurity.
就像智商点数一直在往上叠加。
Like the IQ points just stack and stack.
而在创造力和设计方面，整体进步非常缓慢。
And then for creativity and for design, it's very incremental progress overall.
也许将来会改变，但我认为这些领域无法验证是原因之一。
Maybe that will change at some point, but I think the fact that these are non-verifiable domains has something to do with it.
而且很可能这就是人类在AI工具中的角色，即构思、创造、设计，让AI做更多的工作，但它让你能做更多的工作。
And it's probably the fact that maybe that is the human role in the AI toolkit, which is conceive, create, design, and let the AI do more of the work, but it gives you the ability to do much more work.
现在有没有什么让你特别兴奋或感兴趣的新兴艺术或媒体？
Any art or media that you're particularly excited about or interested in that's kind of emerging right now?
我觉得人们做各种新的AI实验特别有意思。
I find it fascinating when people do sort of new AI experiments.
比如，把这个归到媒体类吧。
For example, put this in the media category.
前几天有个设计师或艺术家类型的人做了一个网页，实际上是写给Figma的一封信。
There was a designer artist type that made a webpage the other day, and it was a letter to Figma, actually.
这引起了我的注意，因为我在算法推送里看到了Figma相关的内容。
So it caught my attention because I was getting the Figma hit on the algo feed.
每次你离开页面再回来，它就会变得更模糊一点，这基本上是在评论注意力的问题。
And every time you moved away from it, and came back, it got slightly more degraded, and it was basically a comment on attention.
我觉得这真的很酷。
I thought that was really cool.
哦，真不错。
Oh, cool.
那算是一件艺术品了。
That was a piece of art.
我也这么觉得。
I thought so.
那是一个网页。
It was a webpage.
但我觉得他们的技术和做法真的很巧妙，而且很少有人这么做过。
But I thought that the technique and the way that they went about it was really neat and not something that many others have done.
我还见过其他类似的东西，但总的来说，我觉得这种做法非常酷。
I've seen a few other things like that, but overall, I thought it was a very cool way to do it.
而且那封信也写得非常好。
And it was also just a very well-written letter.
我也很喜欢那封信。
I liked the letter, too.
对，我经常看到这类东西。
But yeah, I see stuff like this.
回想当年，我记得在NFT流行的时候，有人用AI做NFT艺术。
And back in the day, I remember seeing people do NFT art with AI when NFTs were a thing.
大概是2019年左右吧。
It was like 2019 or something like that.
但他们有时候的做法真的非常出色。
But the way they did it sometimes was really remarkable.
Holly Herndon的作品，她把自己的声音做成几乎开源的形式，让大家都能用，这真的很了不起，而且非常超前。
Holly Herndon's work around taking her voice and making it so that her voice was something that people could use in an almost open source way, that was quite incredible and ahead of its time.
我觉得这种在自我、集体、以及什么独特可拥有、什么不可拥有之间的互动，真的很有意思。
And I think this sort of play between what is me, what is the collective, and what is it that is unique and ownable versus what is not, is quite fascinating.
我一直对这个交叉点很着迷。
I've always been fascinated by that intersection.
对，那挺酷的。
Yeah, that's cool.
在我们结束之前，很多对AI的负面评论说它会剥夺人的自主性，人的潜力会被封顶。
Just as we wrap up, a lot of the commentary on AI that's negative is that it takes away human agency, human potential gets capped out.
你能谈谈你对每个人都能成为创意者、设计师的看法吗？以及AI如何可能放大每个人的能力，而不仅仅是那些所谓的“创意人士”——那些在某个特殊大楼里的精英艺术家群体。
Can you just talk a little bit about your view on the potential of every human to be a creative, to be a designer, and how AI might perhaps magnify every person, not just the, quote, "creatives" where they're in some elite class of artists in some special building.
而是每个人创造、设计、制造东西的能力，你现在怎么看这件事？
But the ability for every human to create and the ability for every human to design and produce things in the world and where you sit with that right now.
我觉得这甚至更广泛。
I think it's even broader.
我觉得作为一个人，无论AI之前还是之后，你都有选择。
I think it's- As a human, in general, pre-AI, post-AI, you have a choice.
你是想消费还是创造？
Do you want to consume or create?
你是想走捷径，还是想爬山？
Do you want to take the easy path, or do you want to climb the mountain?
我现在看到很多人在让AI替他们思考。
And what I'm seeing happen right now a lot is people are letting AI think for them.
在Figma内部少一些，但在我和世界的互动中，我最近看到很多这种情况。
Less at Figma, but more just in my interactions with the world, I just see a lot of this at the moment.
那是一条你可以走的路。
And that's one path you can take.
但另一条路是真正利用AI来加深你对世界的理解，去学习，去做那些你以前不敢做的事情，因为那些事情需要花很多时间去学，或者太难了。
But the other one is actually use AI to further your understanding of the world, to learn, to do things you never would've dared to do before because they would've taken so much time to learn or it's so hard.
并且真正扩展你作为人类可能的生活方式。
And to really expand the potential ways that you can live as a human.
对我来说，后者才是更有趣的部分。
That to me, the latter, is the interesting part.
前者的话，我为什么要让别人替我去思考呢？
The former, why would I want something else to think for me?
我这一辈子都在琢磨怎么思考。
My entire life has been about figuring out how to think.
而且，我也不知道，我就是希望大家能用AI去创造美好，成为推动美好的一股力量，而不是随大流。
And, I don't know, I just hope that people use AI to create good and to go be a force for it rather than just joining the hive mind.
每个人都能成为创造者。
Everyone can be a maker.
每个人都能成为创造者。
Everyone can be a maker.
每个人都能去做大胆的事情。
Everyone can go do bold things.
这关乎意志力，也关乎好奇心。
It's about willpower and it's about curiosity.
如果你有好奇心，又愿意付出努力，我相信——
And if you're curious and you're willing to do the work, I believe-
你可以勇敢地说出你的真实想法。
You can be brave and speak your truth.
对，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
然后我觉得你就可以去做一些了不起的事情。
And then I think that you can go do incredible things.
未来我们可能会看到一个截然不同的局面，那些我们无法想象的事情会变得可能，而我们习以为常的事情可能不再是人类日常活动的一部分。
We will probably see a vastly different setup in the future where things that we can't imagine are possible and things we take for granted are no longer in sort of the realm of what humans do every day.
具体会是什么样子，我觉得我们俩谁也说不准。
How exactly that will look, I don't think either of us can tell.
但确实，我们正处于巨大变革的边缘，而最让我震撼的是昨晚OpenAI发布的数学成果，涉及700多篇论文，涵盖各种著名难题。
But it is the case that both we're on the precipice of great change and nothing hit home for me more than the math drop last night from OpenAI of 700 plus papers on all sorts of very famous problems.
那真是一种实力的展示。
That was a show of something.
我当时心情很复杂。
I had a lot of emotions.
我不知道该怎么消化这件事。
I don't know how to process it.
我觉得那是人类历史上最伟大的发现日。
I thought it was the greatest day of discovery in human history.
哦，从事实上来说，是的。
Oh, factually, yes.
对。
Yes.
而且这件事既让人感到精彩和兴奋，又让人有点难过。
And also something about it was brilliant and exciting and something about it was kind of sad.
我不知道该怎么表达那种难过，但感觉我们同时失去了什么，也得到了什么。
And I don't know how to articulate the sadness, but it felt like we lost something and gained something at the same time.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我抬起头，看着下一个前沿，我觉得这些前沿比以往任何时候都更光明、更广阔、更容易触及。
I lift my head up and I look at the next frontier and I think that the frontiers are brighter and wider and more accessible than they've ever been.
所以我现在挺兴奋的。
So I'm pretty excited.
哦，我也很兴奋。
Oh, I'm excited too.
而且我觉得世界会变得非常精彩，我是个乐观主义者。
And I think that the world will look amazing and I'm an optimist.
我觉得会有很多挑战，但我们能解决它们。
I think there's going to be a lot of challenges and we'll figure them out.
具体怎么解决，挑战会以什么形式出现，我们还得等着看。
How exactly and what the challenges will be in their full form, we have yet to see.
不过，是的，我确实觉得数学有一种神秘的特质，就像未解的问题一样。
But yeah, I do think that math is something that somehow has a quality of mystery to it, like an unsolved problem.
这个猜想是真的还是假的？
Is this conjecture true or false?
怎么证明？
How?
为什么？
Why?
与这种神秘感搏斗是一件特别的事，我对进步以及它将带来的一切感到兴奋，同时，我也不认为为失去一点神秘感而惋惜有什么不对。
Grappling with that mystery is something that is special and I'm both excited for the progress and all the things it'll make possible, and also I don't think it's wrong to mourn the loss of a little mystery.
有道理。
Fair enough.
迪伦，这次聊天真不错。
Dylan, this has been a great chat.
我们再去喝一杯怎么样？
Should we go have another drink?
听起来不错。
Sounds good.
走吧。
Let's do it.
谢了，兄弟。
Thanks, man.
谢谢。
Thanks.
我要全力以赴了。
I'm going all in.
我要全力以赴了。
I'm going all in.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。