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比利·埃文斯，伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的伴侣，即将上映的纪录片《你能看到一切》的主角，与她的未婚夫比利·埃文斯有着一段非同寻常的爱情故事。
Billy Evans, who is Elizabeth Holmes's partner The subject of the forthcoming documentary, "You Can See Everything," has had an unconventional love story with her fiancé, Billy Evans.
这对情侣最初相识时，联邦当局正在调查霍姆斯，因为她那家失败的血液检测初创公司Theranos涉嫌欺诈和共谋。
The couple first connected as federal authorities were investigating Holmes for fraud and conspiracy connected to her failed blood testing startup, Theranos.
一部新纪录片前所未有地深入展现了伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的生活，这位科技CEO变成了被判有罪的罪犯，是长达数年的大规模欺诈案的核心人物。
A new documentary is offering an unprecedented look into the life of Elizabeth Holmes, the tech CEO turned convicted felon at the center of a massive multi-year fraud.
伊丽莎白·霍姆斯今天被判入狱11年零3个月，四项刑事欺诈罪名成立。
Elizabeth Holmes was sentenced today to 11 and a quarter years in prison, four counts of criminal fraud.
这位名誉扫地的女大亨和她的未婚夫比利·埃文斯。
The disgraced tycoon and her fiancé, Billy Evans.
让我们欢迎比利·埃文斯。
Please welcome Billy Evans.
当你觉得自己快要撑不住，想要放手的时候。
When you're feeling like you're losing your grip, and you want to let go.
坚持住。
Hold on.
有些黑粉在等着你呢——
It's some haters waiting for you-
欢迎。
Welcome.
最近怎么样？
What's up?
大家好。
Hi, everyone.
请坐。
Grab a seat.
你以前做过这种现场采访吗？
Have you ever done a live interview like this?
哥们，我从来没做过采访。
Dude, I've never done an interview.
你从来没做过采访啊。
You've never done an interview.
所以，谢谢大家来当小白鼠。
So thank you guys all for being the guinea pigs here.
我很感激，也抱歉——
I appreciate it, and apologies for-
你是伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的丈夫？
You're Elizabeth Holmes's husband?
我通常不喜欢这样被介绍。
That's typically not how I love to be introduced.
是的，我叫比利·埃文斯。
Yeah, my name's Billy Evans.
没错，伊丽莎白·霍姆斯是我的妻子，也是我最好的朋友和伴侣。
And yes, Elizabeth Holmes is my wife and best friend and partner.
你和我是在一个派对上认识的。
You and I met at a party.
大概一年半以前吧，我想。
A year and a half ago, I think.
大概是在奥斯汀的F1比赛那会儿吧。
Around F1, I think, in Austin.
对，没错。
Yeah, that's right.
然后我们就聊了起来，接着就聊到了伊丽莎白、那个案子，还有整个事情的来龙去脉。
And we started talking, and that kind of got to us chatting about Elizabeth and the case and the history.
我记得我走到你面前说：“大卫，我叫比利·埃文斯。”
I think I came up to you and I said, "David, my name's Billy Evans.
你们在播客里经常聊到我妻子，而且很多地方讲得跟事实出入挺大的。
You guys talk about my wife a lot on your podcast, and you've got a lot of the story pretty fundamentally wrong.
所以如果你有兴趣了解更多细节，我很乐意跟你详细说说。”
So if you're ever interested in learning some more details, I'm happy to read you in."
我当时喝了几杯。
I'd had a couple of drinks.
我就说：“好啊。”
I'm like, "Sure."
他真的很棒。
He was great.
他确实非常棒。
He was really great.
我会听听你的说法。
I'll hear your side of the story.
然后事情就一步步发展下去了。
And one thing led to another.
我们在电话里聊了聊，最后我坐飞机去了德克萨斯，去监狱里看望了伊丽莎白。
We talked on the phone, and I ended up getting on a plane to Texas, and I went and visited Elizabeth in prison.
我和她待了一整天，还有你——
I spent the day with her and you-
还有她的父母和孩子们，深入了解了整件事，发现这个故事远比之前被描绘的要复杂得多。
... and her parents and the kids, going quite deep into the whole thing, and there was a lot more to this story than what I think had been portrayed.
我之前也知道那部纪录片。
And I was aware of the documentary.
我在好莱坞听说这部纪录片在制作中，而且听说它已经——
I had heard in Hollywood that this documentary was happening, and I had heard that it had been-
但这事保密得挺好的。
But it was a pretty well-kept secret.
对，不过我认识一些人。
Yeah, but I know people.
那我不怀疑。
Well, I don't doubt it.
看看这人群。
Look at the crowd.
好吧，所以秘密还是泄露了。
Well, so the secret got out.
我想说到那一点。
I want to get to that.
我们今天不打算讨论这个案子，Theranos案。
We're not going to litigate the case today, the Theranos case.
那是伊丽莎白的故事，等时机合适的时候由她来讲。
That's Elizabeth's story to tell when the time is right.
而且她直到去年四月才解除禁言令。
And she was under a gag order until last April.
所以从司法部开始调查起，伊丽莎白就一直受到禁言令的约束，直到审判结束，再到上诉程序结束，我记得上诉是去年四月结束的。
So from the time that the DOJ began their investigation, Elizabeth was under a gag order through the trial and through the appeals process, which ended last April, I believe.
所以关于她，有一件事可能会让你惊讶，那就是伊丽莎白对规则的遵守近乎偏执，一丝不苟。所以当法官说我们要在法庭上解决这件事，而不是在媒体上时，她确实严格遵守了。
So one thing for people to know about her, which might shock you, is that Elizabeth follows rules maniacally, to a T. So when the judge said that we are going to litigate this courtroom and not in the media, she held true to that.
她从未对媒体说过话。
She never spoke to the media.
没有，在整个过程中，她始终保持沉默。
No, for the entirety of the process, she remained silent.
而且当时有很多文章在写。
And there were a lot of articles being written.
对，还有电影在拍，播客也在做。
Yeah, movies being made and podcasts.
她没有回应。
And she didn't respond.
她没有接受采访。
She didn't give interviews.
好的。
Okay.
所以这个故事有很多内容，今天我们就不谈审判和案件了。
So there's a lot to the story, which we're not going to talk about today, the trial and the case.
但我很想听听你的经历。
But I'm curious to hear a little bit about the experience.
好，那我们也许可以回顾一下。
Okay, so maybe we can go back.
你和伊丽莎白是怎么认识的？
How did you and Elizabeth first meet?
我和伊丽莎白是在旧金山的一次舰队周派对上认识的，那是在某个风险投资家的屋顶上。
Elizabeth and I met at a Fleet Week party in San Francisco on the roof of some venture capitalist.
他当时想招我，还想追她。
He was trying to hire me and date her.
我本来打算只待五分钟的。
I was going to be there for maybe five minutes.
当时有一百个人要来我和另外四个室友住的房子，我们准备办一个盛大的舰队周派对。
I had 100 people coming over to a house I lived in with four other guys, and we were going to throw a big Fleet Week party.
我出去买冰块的时候，他打电话给我说：“比利，你今天来我们的活动吗？”
And he called me when I went out to go grab ice, and he said, "Billy, are you coming by our event today?"
我说：“当然来。”
I said, "Of course."
其实我完全忘了。
I'd totally forgotten.
所以我就开车去了他家。
So I drove over to his place.
我把车停在红线上。
I parked my car in the red.
我坐电梯上去，几分钟后，他把我介绍给了伊丽莎白，结果我整个下午就泡汤了。
I went up the elevator, and a few minutes later, he introduced me to Elizabeth, and that killed my whole afternoon.
接下来的大概两个半到三个小时，我和她一直在聊天，我们开始了一段从未真正结束的对话。
I mean, the next, I don't know, two and a half, three hours, her and I just spoke, and we started a conversation that really has never ended.
我不知道能不能说那一刻我就爱上了她，但她真的太出色了。
And I don't know if I can say I fell in love with her in that moment, but she was just incredible.
她特别会倾听，而且真的在乎你说的每一句话。
Her ability to listen and really care about everything that you're saying.
她让你觉得自己被看见了。
She made you feel so seen.
她对那些别人都不在意、或者觉得太酷而不屑于假装重要的小事，充满了无限的好奇。
She was infinitely curious about the smallest things that nobody else really cared about or were too cool to pretend like it mattered.
当飞机从头顶飞过时，她带着那种孩子般的好奇心，对它们惊叹不已。
As the planes flew overhead, she was just amazed by them with this childlike wonder.
我第一次见到她时，并不知道她就是伊丽莎白·霍姆斯。
And when I first met her, I didn't know she was Elizabeth Holmes.
她当时就是伊丽莎白。
She was just Elizabeth.
她戴着一顶大宽檐帽和墨镜，脸上还贴着创可贴，因为她的哈士奇小狗刚抓了她一下。
She was wearing a big floppy hat and dark sunglasses and had a Band-Aid on her face because her puppy husky had just scratched her.
聊到一半的时候，话题转到了我们工作的地方，我告诉她我在佩奇米尔路工作。
And some way through the middle of the conversation, it turned to where we worked, physically, and I told her that I worked on Page Mill Road.
她说：“哦，不会吧。
She said, "Oh, no way.
在哪里？”
Where?"
我说：“1891号。”
And I said, "1891."
她说：“我在1790号”之类的。
And she said, "I'm 1790," or something.
她就离我两个门远，那时候我才真正反应过来。
She was two doors down, and then that's when I really put it together.
那这是哪一年？当时Theranos的故事发展到什么程度了？
And what year was this, and what was the state of the Theranos story at that point?
我们第一次见面是在2017年10月7日。
So this was October 7th of 2017 that we first met.
那时候情况糟透了。
It was peak bad.
所以那是在司法部或者案件——
So this was after the DOJ or the case-
那是在她被起诉之前。
It was before she was indicted.
在她被起诉之前。
Before she was indicted.
那时候，卡里尤的报道机器已经启动了。
It was the carry you article machine had started.
对，大概有100篇吧。
Yeah, like 100 of them.
好的。
Okay.
那些文章已经发出去了。
Those were already out there.
确实已经发出去了。
They had been out there.
所以那时候她已经有这样的名声了——
So she had this reputation at this-
名声很糟糕。
A horrible reputation
……骗子，诸如此类的。
... fraudster, all this sort of stuff.
对。
Yes.
所以你是说，你第一次见到她的时候，吸引你的是她这个人，而不是伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的故事，然后你才发现原来是她。
And so you're saying that when you first met her, it was who she is that you engaged with, not the story of Elizabeth Holmes, and then you found out it was her.
就像我在这里接触过的30个人，我对他们的故事一无所知。
It's like the 30 people that I've spoken to while I've been here where I know nothing about their story.
我只是看到眼前这个人。
I'm just seeing the person in front of me.
那么当你发现她真实身份的时候——
So then when you found out who she really was-
……你不会立刻停下来想：“我为什么要跟这个人说话？”
... do you not just shut down and say, "What am I doing talking to this person?"
这真的很难理解。
It was pretty hard to grok.
这很难接受，因为你认识了这个人的一面，而这一面跟你应该对她有的看法是完全分开的。
It was a hard thing to come to terms with because you get to know this person ... separate and apart of how you're supposed to feel about them.
然后你总会回到那个想法：“这就是别人告诉我的那个人。”
And then you invariably go back to this idea of like, "This is who I've been told this person is."
这两者之间的差距太大了，是的，这真的很有挑战性。
And those two things were so radically different from one another, yeah, it was really challenging.
然后呢——
And then-
但我们不是直接就开始约会的。
But we didn't just start dating.
我认识她的时候，正好在考虑租她的办公楼，因为我们就在隔壁，当时我们的业务在扩张，而她的业务也在扩张。
I met her, and then I was looking at renting her building because we were right next door, and our business was kind of doing this, and hers was doing this at that time.
所以我们当时在考虑租Theranos的总部，就是在那个背景下，她给了我她的名片，还把上面的手机号划掉，写上了私人手机号。
So we were looking at renting the Theranos HQ, and that was kind of the context under which she gave me her business card, and she crossed out her cell phone number on it and wrote personal cell.
我当时就想，"嗯？
I was like, "Huh.
也许这不仅仅是生意上的事。"
Maybe this just isn't business."
我们就是这样最初联系上的。
And that's how we originally connected.
那你们后来就开始一起出去玩了吗？
And then did you guys start hanging out?
对，所以当我第一次见到她时，她告诉我她有一只哈士奇，我告诉她我有一只狗。
Yeah, so when I first met her, she told me that she had this husky, and I told her I had a dog.
其实我并没有真的养狗。
I didn't really have a dog.
那是我室友的狗，但它就像是我的一样。
It was my roommate's dog, but he was like mine.
我们最初几次见面，就是一起去散步。
And the first times that we hung out, we'd just go on walks.
我对她的情况非常好奇，可能你们很多人也一样，因为你们听到了很多传闻。
And I was really curious about the circumstance, like probably many of you are because you've heard so much.
当时她确实有些臭名昭著。
There was some infamy at the time.
你很好奇想了解到底发生了什么。
You're curious to understand what's going on.
我想我最想弄清楚的是，我所亲身经历的那个人，和外界告诉我的那个人，到底有什么不同。
I think I was most curious to understand the difference between the person that I experienced and the person that I was told existed.
她们差别太大了。
And they were so different.
我特别好奇，也对她感兴趣，她让我感觉很好，因为她听得很认真。
I was really curious, and I was interested in her, and she made me feel good because she listened so intently.
但基本上，我们做了六个月的普通朋友。
But basically, we were friends for six months.
我们会带着她的狗和我室友的狗——我借来的狗——一起散步。
We'd go on walks with her dog and my rent-a-dog that was my roommate's.
然后关系就变得浪漫了。
And then there was a romantic turn.
对，而且发展得特别快。
Yeah, and it moved super quickly.
就像从朋友开始，一下子就变了。
Like it went from us being friends.
那时候我经常出差，在一家做激光雷达的公司工作，我们向世界各地的汽车公司销售产品。
I was traveling a lot at the time, so I was working for a company that built lidar, and we were selling to car companies around the world.
所以那一年，我大概去了德国12趟，而且——
So that year, I spent maybe 12 trips to Germany and-
你当时是做什么的？
What was your role?
我就是去解决那些CEO不想处理的最棘手的问题。
I was just solving the most important problems that the CEO didn't want to solve.
有点像创业公司那种——
Kind of like a startup type-
特别项目
Special projects
……特别项目。
... special project.
所以从销售那类事情开始——
So everything from kind of sales-
各种事情都有
All kinds of stuff
……到大型汽车制造商，再到招聘高管团队成员，有时还要筹集资金。
... to big automotive manufacturers to hiring executive team members to raising capital at times.
真的就是任何需要完成的事情。
Just really anything that needed to get done.
你知道，创业公司就是——
You know a startup, it's-
……有很多问题需要解决，而我当时就是非常愿意说“行”。
... there's a lot of problems that need to be solved, and I was just really willing to say yes.
所以你们俩，这件事变得认真起来，变得感性，而她正在经历那场官司，对吧？
So you guys kind of, this becomes more serious, becomes emotional, and she's going through this court case, right?
起诉开始了？
The indictment started?
对，我想我们开始约会三周后，她就遭到起诉了。
Yeah, I think three weeks after we started dating, she got indicted.
她遭到——
She got-
这么快就爱上一个人，然后又立刻要面对这些事，这经历真是够呛。
It's one hell of an experience to fall in love with somebody so quickly and then immediately come to terms with like...
我当时连起诉书是什么都不知道，你知道吗？
I didn't even know what an indictment was, okay?
我对整个过程真的是一无所知。
I was really unfamiliar with the entirety of this process.
那在你们交往的这段时间里，她是不是正经历着人生中的一段危机？
But is she going through a period of crisis in her life during this kind of courtship period?
她冷静得很，一点都不慌。
She is cool as a cucumber.
那在这期间，各种报道都出来了——
So while this was happening, all the articles are coming out-
在起诉之前，她是不是也没怎么被这些事影响或者吓到？
... before the indictment, she didn't feel super phased or freaked out by this?
没有，确实有让人担心的事，但你得站在她的角度想想。
No, there's certainly things to be freaked out about, but you have to put yourself in her mindset.
我不想替她说话，但我可以跟你分享我所看到的情况，那就是她打心底里相信自己没有做错任何事。
Which I don't want to speak for her, but I can share with you kind of the perspective that I saw, which is this is somebody that fundamentally believes in their innocence.
而且在被起诉之前，当时有人告诉她，'你永远不会被起诉。
And was being told at the time, prior to the indictment, like, "You're never going to get indicted.
你没有做错任何事。
You did nothing wrong.
公司也没有做错任何事。'
The company did nothing wrong."
我知道这对你们来说很难接受——
And I know that's hard for you guys-
这就是律师们常说的。
This is what lawyers say
去理解和相信，但确实是这样。
... to comprehend and believe, but yes.
这就是当时幕后发生的事情。
This is what was kind of going on behind the scenes.
所以我觉得在每一个章节里，事情一件接一件地发生，我们总是感到意外。
So I think at each of these chapters in which thing after thing happened, we were kind of perpetually surprised.
本来不应该这样的。
It wasn't supposed to go this way.
我觉得这么说很贴切。
I think that's a good way of describing it.
然后她就被起诉了。
And then she gets indicted.
那是什么感觉？
How was that?
那是我第一次见到她父母。
That's the first night I met her parents.
第一次见公婆就这么个情况，挺不容易的。
It's a tough way to meet your in-laws.
她当时怎么样？
How was she?
压力一直在累积。
It was mounting.
关于这件事有很多文章和媒体报道，但是——
There was a lot of articles and press about this, but-
对，简直是铺天盖地的报道。
Yeah, kind of infinite press.
但她就是不看。
But she wouldn't read it.
我看过《辍学生》大概一集半吧，原因嘛，可能你们有些人以后会明白。
I've seen, I don't know, maybe an episode and a half of "The Dropout" for a reason maybe some of you guys will understand in the future.
你没看过这个？
You didn't watch this?
没看过，但我翻了翻《坏血》，因为我的律师让我看，出于其他原因。
No, but I skimmed "Bad Blood" because my lawyers told me to for other reasons.
除此之外，我真的没怎么看关于这个主题的任何媒体内容。
But otherwise, I really didn't consume any media on the subject.
然后她被起诉了，这对你们和你们当时的关系有什么影响？
And then she gets indicted, and how was this for you guys and your relationship at this point?
现在——
I mean, now-
那时候我们才在一起三周。
It was three weeks into a relationship with somebody.
但我们已经很亲近了，因为之前已经做了六个月的真正朋友。
But we were so close already because we'd spent six months really being friends.
那段时间真的很紧张，兄弟。
It was intense, man.
我觉得如果当时我知道现在知道的这些，知道这个过程有多痛苦，我可能会用不同的方式应对，但当时我完全是第一次经历这种事。
I think part of it is if I knew what I know now, how painful the process was, I probably would've responded differently at the time, but I was in new territory.
让我想想，那是2018年。
Let's see, this was 2018.
我不知道，我当时大概26岁，27岁。
I don't know, I was like 26 years old, 27 years old.
然后审判就开始了。
And then the trial began.
嗯，其实审判开始前还拖了一段时间。
Well, it took a while for the trial to begin.
对，因为中间有一段时间——
Right, because there was a period-
所以我们有很长一段时间，一直悬着这件事，而且花了很多时间和律师在一起，她常常工作到深夜，翻查几十万份记录，试图拼凑出一个连她自己都不完全理解的、关于她的故事。
So we had a long period of time in which there was this impending thing, and there was an enormous amount of time spent with lawyers and her working late into the night to go through hundreds of thousands of records and try and piece together a story that she didn't fully understand that was being told about her.
那段时间确实很紧张，但其中也有一些非常美好的时刻。
So it was a really intense time, but there's also some really beautiful moments in there, too.
有一件事没人知道，但我想你们是第一个知道的，就是伊丽莎白和我花了八个月时间，开着一辆越野房车周游全国。
One thing that nobody knows, but I guess you guys are the first to know, is Elizabeth and I spent eight months traveling the country in an off-road RV.
我们带着我们的狗，巴尔托。
We had our dog, Balto.
它是一只哈士奇。
He's a husky.
如果你没见过野外的哈士奇，那真是一道风景，因为那只狗活得可带劲了。
And if you've never seen a husky in the wild, it is a sight to be seen because that dog lived.
我们就去拖车公园，还有国家森林，那里允许你停车待14天不用挪车。
And we just went to trailer parks, and we went to national forests where you're allowed to stay and park your car for 14 days without moving it.
我们白天就徒步，晚上工作，围着火堆坐，就待在一起。
And we would just hike all day and work at night, sit around the fire, and just be together.
那你的工作怎么办？
What about your job?
那时候我已经离开原来的生意了，开始做别的事情。
Well, at that time, I had already left the business, and I was starting something else.
好的。
Okay.
所以我算是给自己打工。
So I was kind of working for myself.
你们就是那种“走吧，去自由，远离这一切”的感觉？
You guys are just, "Let's go be free, get away from all this"?
我觉得有一部分原因就是我们在旧金山的时候，媒体关注度太高了。
I think a part of it was just the enormous attention by the media when we were in San Francisco.
我手机里存了一大堆……
I've got an entire collection on my phone of...
情况是这样的。
Here's how the situation works.
我们一进餐厅，不到30秒，就有六个人掏出手机，有些人偷偷摸摸的，有些人假装在给朋友拍照，但其实很明显。
We'd go into a restaurant, and within 30 seconds, six people would pull out their phones, and some of them were sneaky, and others were pretending like they were taking a photo of their friend, but it was obvious.
真的太不舒服了。
It was so uncomfortable.
我们走到哪儿都会立刻被认出来，立刻被评头论足。
We couldn't go anywhere without immediately being recognized, immediately being judged.
我们去餐厅参加朋友的结婚纪念日或订婚晚宴，结果就会有文章写伊丽莎白·霍姆斯在旧金山到处招摇。
We'd go to a restaurant for a friend's dinner celebrating their anniversary or their engagement, and then we'd have articles written about how Elizabeth Holmes is gallivanting around San Francisco.
当你的每一个举动、每一个决定、去的每一个地方，都被一千个愤怒的记者用审视的眼光看待时，你真的很难知道该怎么表现。
And it's hard to know how to act when every action that you take and every decision that you make and every place that you go is being judged through the eyes of a thousand angry journalists.
有一段时间，大家都在说伊丽莎白·霍姆斯很会操控人心——
There was this period of time when everyone talked about Elizabeth Holmes being manipulative-
……
...
她穿高领毛衣，压低声音说话，扮演着某种角色。大家觉得，如果她在别人面前都在演戏，那她肯定无时无刻不在演戏，这也许就是欺诈和操控的根源。
in wearing the turtleneck and talking with a deep voice and having this kind of character that she played, where the idea was, if she's playing a character for everyone else around here, clearly she's playing a character all the time, and that might be the origin of the fraud, of the manipulation.
我觉得关于这一点有很多说法，其中一些，如果你尽量以清晰的眼光回顾，并尽可能把伊丽莎白·霍姆斯从这件事中剥离出来。
I think there's a lot of things that have been said about that, and some of them, I think if you just look back with as much clarity as you can muster, and try and disassociate Elizabeth Holmes from the situation as much as possible.
你只要说出来，有些说法其实挺离谱的。
If you just say it, some of it's pretty crazy.
比如，说她用那双蓝色大眼睛操控别人，说她低沉的声音能让别人立刻给她一亿美元。
Like, that she would manipulate people with her big blue eyes, and that her deep voice would immediately have people give her $100 million.
首先，这非常性别歧视。
It's incredibly sexist, one.
但确实。
But yeah.
你不会对一个男人这么说。
You wouldn't say that about a man.
我读过很多这方面的报道。
I've read a lot of this stuff.
对，你绝不会对一个男人这么说。
No, you'd never say that about a man.
丽兹会跟人开会，比如，我就不点名了，但想想地球上最大的家族办公室之一。
Liz would have a meeting with somebody like, I'll not insert name here, but think one of the biggest family offices on Earth.
会议就45分钟。
It would be a 45-minute meeting.
会议结束时，他们就承诺投1亿美元。
They'd commit $100 million by the end of the meeting.
要是哪个男的做到这样，大家会说：“哇，讲故事的能力真厉害。
And any guy that did that, people would say, "Wow, what an incredible ability to tell a story.
对自己相信的事情有如此坚定的信念，能让别人愿意支持你的使命和愿景，这能力真了不起。”
What an incredible ability to have deep conviction in the thing that you believe in, that this person wants to support your mission and your vision."
但如果是丽兹，大家就会说：“哇，她45分钟就把那个人给忽悠了。”
And when it's Liz, it's, "Wow, she fleeced that person in 45 minutes."
好的。
Okay.
但后来也有一些故事说有些东西被夸大了。
But then there are these stories about things that were misrepresented.
机器能做这个，但做不到那个。
The machine does this, and then it doesn't do that.
再说一次，我不想在这里争论这个案子。
And again, I don't want to litigate the case.
但有没有哪次经历让你觉得伊丽莎白夸大了事实，她在挑战底线，她脑海中的想象变成了现实？
But was there any experience you had where Elizabeth stretched the truth, where she was pushing the boundaries, where the imagination in her mind maybe became the reality?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
想象变成了现实。
Where the imagination became the reality.
丽兹是个深信不疑的人，除非你见过像她这样的人，否则你真的很难理解那种感觉。
Liz is somebody who so deeply believes, and until you've met somebody like her, it's really hard to understand what that's like.
但我认为，至少在媒体上被大肆讨论和描述的那些事情，并不是一个女人的阴谋，也不是单个人的行为。
But I think a lot of the things that are most litigated in the press at least, and most described, this is not like the machinations of a woman, of a single person.
这是数百名员工十六年来不懈努力，试图解决一个非常棘手的问题。
This was hundreds of employees working tirelessly for 16 years to solve a really difficult problem.
所以，我认为被广泛描述为欺诈行为的一件事就是收入数字未达标。
So, one of the things that I think has been largely described as a fraudulent behavior was missing revenue numbers.
她的收入目标没完成。
She missed her revenue numbers.
她本该预料到这一点。
She should've known that that was going to come.
如果你看看这背后的原因，简单提一下这个案子，他们与沃尔格林有合同义务，要支付那笔钱。
And if you look at where that comes from, just a brief bit of the case, they had contractual obligations with Walgreens to pay them that amount of money.
然后当负面新闻出现时，他们违约了，业务也就没能完成那些收入义务。
And then when bad press came out, then they defaulted on those obligations, and then the business didn't fulfill those revenue obligations.
所以他们差了一大截。
So then they missed it by a large number.
但这并不是编造的数字。
But it wasn't like a made-up number.
这是合同方公司必须支付的金额。
This was a number that was obligated to be paid by the company that they had a contract with.
沃尔格林门店的数量。
Number of Walgreens stores.
大约800家沃尔格林门店，每家店一百万美元。
It's like 800 Walgreens stores and a million dollars a store.
他们本来打算逐步推广，沃尔格林也签了合同来做这件事。
And they were going to roll out over time, and Walgreens had done this contract to do that.
但在卡雷鲁的文章发表后，沃尔格林就停止了合作。
And Walgreens stopped doing that after the Carreyrou article came out.
没错。
That's right.
你们那时候就开始为庭审做准备了吧。
You guys then start going through this process of preparing for the trial.
你就是在那个时候怀孕的吗？
Is that when you got pregnant?
嗯，是她怀孕了。
Well, she did.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我不知道该怎么说。
I don't know the right term.
总是像——
It's always like-
嘿，兄弟
Hey, man
……“你们怀孕了”，我就想，“我其实没做什么……”
... "You guys got pregnant," I'm like, "I didn't really do..."
我说话总是差那么几个字就要被全网封杀了。
I'm always about five words away from being canceled.
所以我得注意点自己的言行。
So I'm going to watch myself.
其实你已经被提前封杀了。
You're pre-canceled, actually.
我觉得我的档案上写着：已封杀。
I think my X file says, "Already canceled."
问题是，当时是什么感觉——
The question was, what was it like-
你是什么时候怀孕的？
When did you get pregnant?
——准备的过程？
... preparing?
伊丽莎白是什么时候怀孕的？
When did Elizabeth get pregnant?
嗯，我们的儿子是7月10号出生的，
Well, our son was born on July 10th of-
那审判是什么时候开始的？
And when did the trial start?
本来应该更早开始的，但那时候是新冠疫情期间。
It was supposed to start well before, but this was COVID.
那经历真的很奇怪，因为我们都戴着口罩进法庭。
It was a really weird experience because we were all masked going into the courtroom.
大家都在讨论要不要——
There's all these discussions about whether or not-
但你们还是安定下来，生了孩子——
But you guys settled down and had a kid-
明知道审判就要来了。
... knowing that there was this trial coming up.
你们有没有讨论过，可能这个案子会——
Was that ever a debate or discussion about, we've got potentially this case that-
这不是一个计划好的、决定好的事情——
This was not like a planned and decided thing-
……先说明一下，好吗？
... just to be clear, okay?
有时候上帝会给你意想不到的礼物。
Sometimes God gives you gifts that are unexpected.
这是我经历过的最棒的事情。
And it's been the greatest experience that I'll ever know.
你们有两个孩子。
You guys have two children.
我们有两个孩子。
We have two children.
我儿子现在五岁了。
So my son is now five.
我女儿三岁了。
And my daughter is three.
那么，带着这些小孩和伊丽莎白一起经历审判，感觉怎么样？
So how was it going through the trial with these little kids and Elizabeth?
那真是太艰难了。
It was so gnarly.
很多人说：“她这么做，或者他们这么做，是为了博取同情。”
So many people say, "The reason why she did this, or they did this, was to get sympathy."
我跟你说吧。
Tell you what.
首先，陪审团根本不知道这件事。
First of all, the jury had no idea that this was happening.
伊丽莎白非常坚决，不让别人在这段时间看到她脆弱的一面。
Elizabeth was militant about not letting people see her in a place of weakness at this time.
所以我们每天早上四点半就起床，带着宝宝，他叫威尔斯。
So we would wake up at 4:30 every morning with the baby, with Wills, is his name.
然后莉兹喂他，我们给他换尿布，把他准备好，再把他放回去睡觉，然后她就开始准备自己。
And Liz would feed him, and we'd change him, and we'd get him ready, and then we'd put him back down, and then she would start getting ready.
而且丽兹不太会弄头发，我买了一个戴森卷发棒，看了YouTube视频后帮她弄。我们准备好一切，然后和家人一起上车，通常是她妈妈和我，有时还有我妈妈，还有我们最亲近的朋友，一起去面对那种像上战场一样的感觉。
And Liz isn't very good at doing her hair, and I bought a Dyson Airwrap and would help her with that after watching YouTube videos and We'd get all prepped and get into the car with our family, so typically her mom and myself, and sometimes my mom, and just our closest friends to go to what felt like war.
那真的很难。
It was really hard.
而且她一路上都要用移动吸奶器吸奶，因为审判开始时我们儿子才三个月大，他白天需要喝奶。
And she would pump milk all the way down with these mobile pumps because our son was three months old when the trial started, and he needed milk throughout the course of the day.
她还买了一个特别的尿布包，让它看起来不像尿布包，这样别人就不会说三道四了。
And she bought a special diaper bag so it wouldn't look like a diaper bag, so people wouldn't be able to say anything about it.
然后在法庭休息期间，她会去洗手间再吸一些奶，午餐时我收集起来，用优步送到家里，然后我妈妈或丽兹的妈妈在家，把奶喂给我们儿子。
And then we would, during breaks, during court, she would go to the bathroom and pump more milk, and then I would collect it at lunch, and I'd send it up in an Uber up to the house, and then my mom or Liz's mom, who was at the house, would then feed it to our son.
但头两个月不能一直抱着这个你最爱的东西，那种感觉真的很煎熬。
But it was crushing to spend the first two months away from this thing that you love more than everything in the world without the ability to hold him all the time.
时机真的太不巧了。
It was really tough timing.
你们当时觉得自己能赢这场官司吗？
You guys think you were going to win the case?
百分之百。
100%.
百分之百。
100%.
她只是被定了少数几项罪名。
There was only a few counts that she was convicted on.
她被判无罪。
She was found not guilty.
这是很多人不太理解的地方——
This is what a lot of people don't really get about-
所以基本的数据是，总共有13项指控。
So the basic math on it is that there was 13 counts.
在18个月的时间里，Liz在Theranos为患者进行了大约1250万次检测。
Liz ran about 12 and a half million tests on patients at Theranos over an 18-month period.
政府花了多年时间调查。
The government spent years investigating.
一千二百五十万次血液检测——
Twelve and a half million blood tests-
——用在患者身上。
... on patients.
这可不是个小数目。
It's not like a small number.
这是个相当大的数字——
It's a pretty big number-
——而且是在很短的时间内。
... in a short period of time.
到了第二年，他们打算做一百倍以上的量。
And the next year, they were going to do 100 times more.
他们打算成为全美第三大的实验室公司。
They were going to be the third largest lab company in the country.
仅次于Quest和LabCorp。
After Quest and LabCorp.
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再下一年，他们就会比这两家都大了。
And the year after that, they would've been bigger than either of them.
抱歉，我一下子忘了说到哪儿了。
And sorry, I lost my train of thought.
谁能提醒我一下我刚才讲到哪儿了？
Can somebody remind me where I was?
嗯，我们刚才在讲——
Well, so we were going through-
哦，对，是那些罪名。
Oh, the counts.
对，罪名。
The counts.
所以一共有13项罪名。
So there's 13 counts.
在她做的那1250万次检测中，政府只提出了4个病人的案例，指控她提供了不准确的结果，构成欺诈。
Of the 12 and a half million tests that she ran, the government brought forward four patients that they accused her of defrauding with inaccurate results.
患者欺诈。
Patient fraud.
对，患者欺诈。
Yeah, patient fraud.
医疗欺诈。
Medical fraud.
所以你给这个人一个坏结果，你明知是坏结果还给他，而且你要为此负责。
So you gave this person a bad result, you knowingly gave them a bad result, and you were responsible for having done so.
这些指控她都被判无罪了。
She was acquitted of those counts.
所以没有证据能让陪审团信服，认为她存在与患者相关的欺诈行为。
So there was no evidence that was brought forward that was convincing to a jury that there was any fraud associated with patients.
我觉得有一件事对我来说很奇怪，作为内部观察者，有时也是外部观察者，诊断本质上是一个精确的领域。
I think one thing that's really strange to me as an inside observer, but also at times an outside observer, is diagnostics is inherently an accurate space.
有些测试90%的准确率就算好的，而对于其他非常不准确的测试，70%就已经很好了。
90% accuracy for some tests is good, and for other really inaccurate tests, 70% is really good.
所以如果你运行了一千两百五十万次测试，四个病人并不能在统计上显著地说明那里有问题。
So if you're running 12 and a half million tests, four patients isn't exactly statistically significant to show that there's problems there.
不过是的，她确实被宣告无罪了。
But yeah, she was acquitted of the counts.
但她被判犯有财务欺诈罪。
But she was convicted of financial fraud.
是的，她确实被判了。
She was, yeah.
所以她被判欺诈三名投资者，并且当时与她的合伙人合谋这么做。
So she was convicted of defrauding three investors, and then colluding with her partner at the time to do so.
所以是共谋实施电信欺诈。
So conspiracy to commit wire fraud.
而共谋罪的定罪给了法官权力，让她得到更重的刑罚。
And the conspiracy conviction is what gave the judge the authority to give her a bigger sentence.
是的，那太疯狂了。
Yeah, that was insane.
再加上他们后来还把鲁珀特·默多克列为受害者。
Coupled with the fact that they brought in Rupert Murdoch as a victim after the case.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yes.
这也让他们在量刑指南上又加了一些时间。
Which allowed them to also add additional time to the sentencing guidelines.
对。
Yes.
所以背景是，伊丽莎白被判了135个月的监禁。
So context, Elizabeth was sentenced to 135 months in prison.
也就是11年零3个月。
That's 11 and a quarter years.
量刑的方式是，有很多加重因素。
The way in which sentencing works is there's all these aggravating factors.
所以他们是通过一个积分系统来计算的，积分取决于很多因素。
So they calculate this through a point system, and the points are dependent upon a variety of things.
那么，你做的事情有没有加重情节呢？
So was there any aggravation in what you did?
经济损失的金额是多少？
What was the amount of financial loss?
伊丽莎白被判犯有三项欺诈那三位投资者的罪名，但我和她都坚信自己是清白的，我恳请你们去看看——
And Elizabeth was convicted of these three counts of defrauding those three investors, which again, I and she deeply believe in her innocence associated with those, and I implore you to look at-
你想告诉我为什么吗？
Do you want to tell me why?
我要说的是——我的律师可能会杀了我——但我要说的是——
What I will say, which my lawyers would probably kill me, but what I will say is-
他们不在这儿。
They're not here.
他们在YouTube上看呢。
They're watching on YouTube.
接下来的两周，我希望你能读一下我们即将发布的内容。我不是要告诉你该怎么想，而是希望你能花时间看看，并诚实地思考它意味着什么。
In the next two weeks, I ask you to read something that we are going to put out, and I'm not telling you what to think, but I'm asking you to spend the time to look at it, and to think honestly about what it means.
我觉得这会相当震撼，因为我们花了好几年时间想搞清楚这里到底发生了什么。
And I think it's going to be pretty shocking because we have spent years trying to understand what the hell has gone on here.
而且它会很有启发性。
And it will be pretty illuminating.
但是你看，要理解这里到底发生了什么，很多人会得到一个非常清晰的故事，比如《坏血》这本书，还有那些文章，以及那些因调查和报道而获得的奖项——
But look, to understand what the hell has gone on here, one can get a story that's, to a lot of people, very clear-cut, the book "Bad Blood," and the articles, and the awards that were given for the investigations and the reporting on the-
……那些从这些文章中衍生出来的东西。
... that came out of these articles.
而且有很多轶事和故事等等，已经为大多数人——我想说为所有人——描绘了一个非常清晰的画面：这个人犯有欺诈罪。
And there's a lot of anecdotes and stories and so on that have painted a very clear picture for the majority, for everyone I would say, on this person is guilty of fraud.
这个人应该被判欺诈罪。
This person should be convicted of fraud.
跟我说说她想要讲述的那一面故事，以及她为什么没有讲出来的背景。
Tell me about the side of the story that she wanted to tell and the context of why she didn't tell it.
嗯，我觉得那是她的故事，应该由她来讲。
Well, I think that's her story to tell.
但为什么没有——
But why didn't-
我可以告诉你她为什么没有讲。
I can tell you why she didn't tell it
……但她为什么没有讲呢？
... but why didn't she tell it?
因为如果故事那么不一样，而且你们自己都那么确信——
Because if there's such a different story and you guys were so convinced yourselves-
……你和她的确信是百分之百不会被起诉，百分之百会赢这个案子，那为什么从来没有公开过？
... you and she, and it was 100% we're not going to be indicted, we're 100% going to win the case, why was that never released?
你提到了那个禁言令，但也许你可以帮我们理解一下。
And you've mentioned this gag order, but maybe just help us understand that.
我想说得非常具体，因为我知道会有很多人来逐字分析、剪辑，或者用这个采访做他们想做的事。
So I want to be really specific because I know like a million people are going to pick this apart and clip it, and do whatever they'd like with this interview.
但严格来说，那并不是禁言令。
But technically, it was not a gag order.
严格来说，法官在预审听证会上，也就是最开始的时候，对审判团队说的是，这个案子要在法庭上解决，而不是在媒体上。
Technically, what the judge said to the trial team in pretrial hearings, in the very beginning, is that this is a case that's going to play out in the courtroom and not in the press.
而且我认为那是伊丽莎白犯过的最大错误，这一点我要说清楚。
And I think that was the single biggest mistake that Elizabeth has ever made, to be really clear.
也许桑尼的错误是最大的，但这个也排得上号。
Maybe Sunny's number one, but it's up there.
因为她的力量在于她的声音，在于她讲述那个故事，但她没有这样做，因为她遵守了规则，没有违背法官的要求，而那个案子几个月前才结束。
Because her power was in her voice, her power was in her telling that story, and she did not Because she followed the rules of not going against what the judge had asked her to do, and that case just ended a handful of months ago.
她沉默了很久。
It's been a long time in which she was silent.
所以她觉得不想冒险，不想因为庭外发言而影响法庭程序，然后赢了案子——
So she felt like she didn't want to risk going through the court process and winning there-
——却因为庭外发言而输了——
... by speaking out of court-
对，没错。
Yeah, that's right
……然后惹上麻烦。
... and getting in trouble.
是的，而且她是个非常理想主义的人。
Yeah, and she's a really idealistic person.
她在一个父母都为政府工作的家庭里长大。
She grew up in a house with a mom and a dad who both worked for the government.
她妈妈和查理·威尔逊一起工作，她爸爸在环保署和美国国际开发署工作——
Her mom worked with Charlie Wilson, and her dad worked with the EPA and USAID-
……在世界各地做水利项目。
... doing water projects around the world.
而且我们至今还会在餐桌上聊这些事，因为她父母一直在帮我带孩子，他们经常在我家。
And the conversations around the dinner table that we still have, because her parents are helping me with my kids, and they're in my house all the time.
过去几年里，我和伊丽莎白的父母相处的时间更多了。
I've spent more time with Elizabeth's parents over the course of the last few years.
整个审判期间，他们都和我们住在一起。
They lived with us throughout the entirety of trial.
他们人特别好，但也特别理想主义。
They're amazing people, but they're also very idealistic.
所以餐桌上的话题总是围绕着服务他人。
So the conversations around the dinner table were always around service.
总是问：“你今天为世界减轻了多少痛苦和苦难？”
It was, "What pain and suffering did you alleviate in the world today?"
所以她一直那么专注于此，因为那是她的成长背景。
So that was always the thing that she was so focused on because that was her upbringing.
我觉得如果你看一个人的父母和他们年轻时的经历，就能很大程度上了解他们是什么样的人。
I think if you look at somebody's parents and their lived experience at a young age, it tells you a lot about who they are.
我得问一下，我之前试过，但如果不问，我会惹麻烦的。
I have to ask, and I tried earlier, but I'm going to get in trouble if I don't ask.
不是惹麻烦，但大家会一直念叨这件事。
Not in trouble, but people will harp on it.
她为什么穿黑色高领毛衣，还用低沉的声音说话？
Why did she wear the black turtlenecks and speak in a deep voice?
她为什么穿黑色高领毛衣？
Why did she wear the black turtlenecks?
还用低沉的声音说话。
And speak in a deep voice.
我见过她。
I've met her.
她其实没有，我是说——
She doesn't, I mean-
她的声音确实低沉，但是——
She's got a deep voice, but-
……她为什么穿黑色高领毛衣？
... why did she wear the black turtlenecks?
跟我讲讲你从她那里听到的关于她年轻当CEO的经历，是不是因为这个原因——她总是在讲自己的故事，觉得自己在讲故事时必须扮演一个角色？
Tell me about the experience you heard from her about being a young CEO and is that where this is coming from, where she was always telling her story, and she felt like she had to play a role in storytelling?
我不是想替你把话说出来，我只是想了解一下背景。
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm just trying to understand the context.
这个话题挺沉重的，我就简单提一下，但说到底，这是她的故事，该由她自己来讲。
It's a really heavy subject, and I'll touch on it briefly, but again, this is her story to tell.
我觉得这大概就是她的使命吧。
I think this is probably her calling.
抱歉。
Sorry.
哦，确实是的。
Oh, it is.
但不像——
But unlike-
把她放到免提上？
Put her on speaker?
我觉得导演组那边可能会有意见。
I think the DOP would have something to say about that.
你们介意我打个招呼吗？就一下。
Do you guys mind if I just say hi for one second?
我没法回她电话，因为她在联邦监狱里。
I can't call her back because she's in federal prison.
你允许开免提吗？
Are you allowed to put her on speaker?
不行，真的，她会进禁闭室的。
No, like really, she'll get sent to the SHU.
就是单独监禁单元。
That's the solitary housing unit.
那地方可不好待。
It's not a nice place to be.
这部分你可以听。
You can hear this part.
要接这个电话——每次她打来我都听到这个……要屏蔽这个电话和以后所有的——
To accept this call- This is what I hear every time she calls me ... to block this call and all future-
我发誓，这真的不是事先安排的。
I swear to God, this was not planned.
不是的。嘿，宝贝。
No. Hey, baby.
你能听到她的声音然后挂断吗？
Can you hear her voice and then hang up?
我现在正在台上，面对着一大群人。
I'm on stage right now in front of a bunch of people.
我能打个招呼吗？
Can I say hi?
戴夫能打个招呼吗？
Can Dave say hi?
你不在免提上，或者别的什么。
You're not on speakerphone or anything.
别担心。
Don't worry.
但我全心全意地爱着你。
But I love you with my whole heart.
戴夫来了。
Here's Dave.
抱歉，各位。
Sorry, guys.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我不想给你惹麻烦。
I don't want to get you in trouble.
所以背景是这样的，我们有500位企业家——
So the context is we've got 500 entrepreneurs-
好的。
Okay.
这里有上千人。
There's thousands of people here.
我们只是在跟比利聊天。
We're just talking to Billy.
好的。
Okay.
我们回头再聊。
We'll talk soon.
再见。
Bye.
那其实是她。
That's actually her.
我爱你。
I love you.
那太疯狂了。
That was crazy.
我想你。
I miss you.
我们很快再聊，好吗，宝贝？
We'll talk soon, okay, baby?
好，拜拜。
Okay, bye.
她不在的这段时间，对孩子们和你来说，感觉怎么样？
What's it been like since she's gone in for the kids, for you?
是什么样的感觉？
What's it like?
首先，我不是唯一一个经历伴侣入狱这个过程的人。
First of all, I am not unique in going through the process of having your partner in prison.
莉兹所在的机构叫布莱恩联邦监狱营地。
At Liz's facility, it's called the Bryan Federal Prison Camp.
那是个营地，大家都说那里特别轻松。
It's a camp, which everybody says is super easy.
我跟你说，根本不是那样。
Let me tell you, it is not.
它在大学城，就是德州农工大学所在的地方，那里有800名女性。
It's in College Station, which is where Texas A&M is, and there's 800 women there.
伊丽莎白已经在那里待了1205天，每一天都极其痛苦。
And Elizabeth has been there for 1,205 days, and every single day has been incredibly painful.
但我知道，我并不是唯一经历这种情况的人。
But I recognize that I'm not unique in that.
有1.3亿美国人有家人会入狱，你看看他们的入狱率，简直高得离谱。
There's 130 million Americans who have a family member that will be incarcerated, and you look at their incarceration rates, they're insane.
但独自面对这一切真的很难，我现在对独自承担这些的妈妈们有了全新的、深深的敬意，她们一边工作一边养家，而且，当你最好的朋友、你生命中最重要的人不在身边时，这几乎是不可能的……你知道吗，当我真心希望我的孩子更像莉兹而不是像我时，我就知道我想娶她，让她成为我的灵魂伴侣。现在很难受，因为孩子们和我在一起的时间比和她在一起的多得多，而且——
But it's really hard to do this alone, and I have a newfound really deep respect for the moms out there that do this by themselves and who are working and raising a family, and it's impossible to have your best friend in the world and the person... Look, I knew I wanted to marry Liz or have her be my soulmate when I really genuinely knew that I want my kids to be more like her than they were like me, and it's hard knowing that they're spending a lot more time with me than they are her and-
你怎么跟他们说？
What do you tell them?
她为什么在那里，为什么我们每个星期六都要去监狱？
Why is she there, and why do we go to prison every Saturday?
嗯，这有点复杂，因为一个五岁，一个三岁，他们对这件事的理解程度不一样。
Well, it's kind of a mix because one's five and the other one's three, and the two of them have different comprehension of the situation.
所以我儿子知道她在哪里，但一开始我们只是说“这是妈妈的工作”。
So my son knows where she is, but to start, it was just, "This is Mommy's work."
她入狱时他才22个月大。
He was 22 months old when she went to prison.
你怎么跟一个两岁的孩子解释这件事？
How do you describe that to a two-year-old?
我们的原则很简单。
And our rule is really simple.
他们问问题的时候，我们就说实话，不管对话多复杂或多让人不舒服。
When they ask questions, we tell them the truth, regardless of how complicated or uncomfortable that conversation is.
我们希望他们了解真实情况，但这很难。
We want them to understand what's really happening, but it's hard.
真的很难。
It's really hard.
难就难在我要创业，还要想办法把我妻子从联邦监狱里救出来，同时还要带两个孩子。
And it's hard because I'm building a business, and I'm trying to free my wife from federal prison, and I'm raising two kids.
她进去跟孩子们道别的时候，你们是什么感受？
What was that moment like when she went in and said goodbye to the kids for you guys, for the kids?
其实孩子们不在场。
So my kids weren't there.
我们觉得那样对他们来说太伤感了。
We thought it would be too emotional for them.
所以我就飞过去了。
So I flew out.
有个朋友很慷慨地帮我们买了机票，飞到奥斯汀，然后我们在那里住了一晚。
We had a friend very kindly pay for a plane to fly us out to Austin, and then we stayed the night out there.
我们跟内森和兰斯拍了一些视频。
We did some filming with Nathan and Lance.
然后我们听说了很多关于监狱的事情，结果发现完全不是那么回事。
And then We were told all these things about prison that just turned out to be totally wrong.
有人告诉我们她可以带新百伦的鞋子进去。
We were told that she was allowed to bring like New Balances.
这是不允许的。
It's like not allowed.
你花钱请那些所谓的监狱顾问，他们本该熟悉这套系统，但你还是毫无准备。
And you pay these prison consultants who supposedly are supposed to know the system, and you're just woefully unprepared.
但当时是什么感觉？
But what was it like?
那是我做过的最艰难的事情之一。
It was one of the hardest things I've ever done.
我们开车送她去监狱。
We drove her to the prison.
我下了车。
I got out of the car.
设施前面正好有三个停车位，她穿着那双可笑的New Balance鞋和一件朋友送的小毛衣下了车。
There's three parking spots right in front of the facility where she got out wearing these ridiculous New Balances and this little sweater that was a gift from a friend.
我紧紧抱住她，对她说：“我爱你胜过一切。”
And I just hugged her, and I said, "I love you more than everything."
她看着我，说：“现在我们自由了。”
And she looked at me, and she said, "Now we are free."
给我讲讲这部纪录片吧。
Tell me about the documentary.
它是怎么来的？
How did it come about?
挺疯狂的，对吧？
Pretty crazy, huh?
你们看过这个吗？
Have you guys seen this thing?
大家都看过预告片了。
Everyone's seen the trailer.
好的。
Okay.
我们为什么要拍它？
Why did we do it?
这是怎么开始的——
How'd it come about-
……你是怎么做的，它到底是什么？
... did you do it, and what is it?
嗯，你会看到的。
Well, you will see.
你会看到它是什么。
You will see what it is.
说实话，我自己也还没看过，所以我不能装作比我知道的更多。
For context, I also have not yet seen it, so I can't pretend to know more than I do.
但当时做这个的背景是什么？
But what was the context going into this?
对，背景就是伊丽莎白面临11年的刑期。
Yeah, the context is that Elizabeth is facing an 11-year sentence.
她被禁止以任何方式公开讲话，而这个片子会在她获准说话之后发布。
She's been prevented from speaking publicly in any way, shape, or form, and this would come out after that period in which she's now allowed to talk.
所以关于她的媒体报道已经很多了。
So there's been a lot of media produced on her.
很多人讲过她的故事，那个叙事已经相当固定了。
There's been a lot of people who have told her story, and that narrative is pretty ossified.
所以整个想法就是，她在这里，看看她，然后你自己做判断。
So the whole idea was here she is, see her, and make up your own mind.
作为一个人。
As a person.
不是为了重新争论这个案子。
It's not to relitigate the case.
所以你在纪录片里不谈这个案子。
So you don't talk about the case in the documentary.
嗯，实际上当时她不被允许谈论这个案子，所以她再次选择遵守规则，不谈这个案子。
Well, practically at this time, she wasn't allowed to talk about the case, so she, again, was going to follow the rules and not talk about the case.
所以只是个人生活。
So it's just a personal life.
这是你们生活的真实写照。
It's a reality context of your lives.
这是能想象到的最有压力的时刻之一。
One of the most stressful times imaginable.
丽兹在二月份生下了我们的女儿艾薇。
Liz had given birth in February to our daughter, Ivy.
不久之后，她做了试管婴儿，然后大约两个月后就要去监狱报到。
Shortly thereafter, she had gone through IVF, and then she was going to report to prison like two months later.
所以你们选择这样做，是为了有机会以不同的方式讲述她是谁的故事吗？
So you guys chose to do this to give an opportunity to tell the story of who she is differently?
这是为了让人们看到她是谁，因为我经历过这样一段非常一致的经历，和我最爱的人——从我的偶像祖母，到现在在后台的挚友——他们听说我开始认识这个人，或者我爱上了这个人，或者现在我们有了孩子。
It was to have people see who she is because I've gone through this really consistent experience with the people who love me most, everybody from my grandmother, who's like my idol, to my best friends who are backstage right now, where they'd hear that I knew this person to start or that I was falling for this person or now we're going to have a kid.
一开始，每个人都说：“比利，你疯了。”
And in the beginning, every single one of these people are like, "Billy, you are crazy.
你在干什么？
What are you doing?
你知道她是谁吗？
Do you know who she is?"
我会告诉他们："我理解你们为什么这么想，但你们见见她再说。"
And I would tell them, "I understand why you feel that way, but just meet her."
那些人见了她，跟她相处一段时间，看到她在完全自然的环境里，比如去徒步或者帮朋友忙。
And those people would meet her, and they'd spend time with her, and they'd see her in a totally natural environment of going on a hike or helping a friend.
然后每一个人的看法都彻底改变了。
And every single one of those people's opinions of her would radically shift.
这不是因为她用什么Theranos的事或者什么具体细节说服了他们。
And it wasn't because she convinced them of something related to Theranos or some specific detail.
我觉得如果你们有机会见到她，看这部电影，或者跟她相处，那正是这部电影的初衷——让更多人能坐下来跟她聊聊，然后自己做出判断。
I think if you guys have the opportunity to meet her, to see this film, or to spend time with her, that was the intention of the film, is to help scale that up and allow other people to sit with her and to make up their own minds.
你觉得效果怎么样？
How do you think it went?
那你坐下来跟——
So you sit down with-
嗯，我还没看过呢。
Well, I haven't seen it yet.
我可能会觉得这是我做过的最蠢的事。
I might think this is the dumbest thing I've ever done.
因为选这个人来做这个节目，挺特别的。
Because this guy's a pretty unique guy to choose to do this show with.
这个——
This-
对，确实。
Yeah, absolutely
而且已经三年了，为什么拖了这么久？
And it's been three years, so why has it taken so long?
本来应该在开拍后一年内就出来的。
It was supposed to come out within a year of the time in which they first started shooting.
所以已经三年了。
So it's been three years.
时间确实挺长的，兄弟。
It's a long time, man.
你有没有听到什么消息，为什么拖了这么久？你担心吗？
Have you heard any updates about why it's taking so long and are you worried about it?
现在已经出来了。
Well, it's out now.
你担心吗？
Are you worried about it?
担心哪方面？
About what part?
整个节目。
The whole show.
你担心他们剪辑的方式没有展现出她真实的样子，反而可能——
Are you worried that they've edited it in a way that doesn't showcase who she is, but maybe-
听着，我们签了——
Look, we signed-
你看那个预告片——
You look at the trailer-
对，她看起来太疯狂了。
Yeah, she looks insane
……而且她看起来确实很疯狂——
... and she looks insane-
……这只是在强化那种叙事，说她是个善于操控的自恋者，不管那叙事是什么，感觉就是，哇，这肯定会很疯狂。
... and it's just reinforcing the narrative on this is a manipulative narcissist, whatever the narrative is, and it feels like, whoa, this is going to be crazy.
她是个坏人。
She's bad.
对，确实很激烈。
Yeah, it's pretty intense.
嗯，尤其是那个音乐。
Well, especially the music.
就像……
It's like .
我觉得音乐才是关键，顺便说一句。
I think the music makes it, by the way.
嗯——
Well-
……这就对了。
... there we go.
我紧张吗？
Am I nervous?
我经历过太多紧张又离奇的事情，所以现在能让我血压升高的事情不多了。
I've been through so many intense, surreal experiences that it takes quite a bit to raise my blood pressure.
这次虽然确实有些担心，但最终决定权在我们手里。
And this one, there's certainly concern, but ultimately it's our decision.
伊丽莎白在监狱里的情况怎么样了？
What's the status with Elizabeth in prison?
她还要待多久？
How much longer does she have?
还要多久你们才能在一起之类的？
How much longer till you guys can be together and so on?
理解他们所谓的计算器，这个过程真的很让人困惑。
It's a really confusing process understanding what they call the calculator.
就像监狱入门知识101。
So like prison numbers 101.
首先你有刑期，也就是你总共要在监狱管理局的监管下待多久。
So you've got your sentence, which is how long you're supposed to be in under the watchful eyes of the Bureau of Prisons altogether.
然后还有你实际在监狱设施里待的时间，也就是在那四堵墙里面。
And then you have the amount of time that you actually spend in the facility itself, so like in the four walls of that prison.
然后你还有一段时间可以在中途之家度过，还有一段时间可以在家监禁。
And then you've got some time that you can spend at a halfway house, and then you have some time that you can spend at home confinement.
特朗普总统在他的第一个任期内通过了《第一步法案》，这真的是最了不起的立法之一，帮助我妻子早日回家。
President Trump, in his first administration, passed something called the First Step Act, which has really been one of the most incredible pieces of legislation that helps bring my wife home sooner.
所以如果她参加项目，每待30天就能减刑16天。
So she can earn 16 days off of her sentence for every 30 days that she's there if she's doing programming.
所以，做这些事是被证明能降低再犯率的，也就是你再次入狱的可能性。
So this is doing things that are proven to reduce recidivism, which is your likelihood of going back to prison.
所以简单来说，目前预计她明年第二季度可以转到中途之家。
So the short answer is that as of now, the expectation is that she could be at a halfway house in Second quarter of next year.
对我来说最难忘的一件事是，我去监狱探监的时候——
One of the most remarkable things for me was when I went to visit in prison-
……
...
当你给她寄钱去买监狱小卖部的东西时——
that when you send money for commissary to her-
对，70%会被扣掉。
Yeah, 70% gets taken
……会有一笔扣款，因为她欠金融诈骗受害者多少钱，所以70%被扣走了？
... there's a deduction because she, 70% gets taken away because how much does she owe to the victims of the financial fraud?
对，4.35亿美元。
Yeah, $435 million.
所以当你——
So when you-
而且其中，有一点很重要，我觉得不到一亿美元。
And of that, which is important to note, I think it's less than $100 million.
她肯定知道确切的数字，但那个数字是由10个投资者组成的，在我看来，这看起来像是判刑的人基本上说：“谁是最大的10个投资者？”
She would know the exact math, but that number is made up of 10 investors, and from my perspective, what it looks like is the people who did the sentencing basically said, "Who are the 10 biggest investors?
然后我们把他们全加上，因为这样会增加刑期。”
And let's all add them on because then that increases the sentence length."
所以最初她的刑期，如果没有这些额外的投资者——她从未被定罪，也从未被证明对他们做过什么，但他们被随意加上了——
So originally her sentence without these additional investors that she was never convicted of, that she was never proven guilty of having done anything to them, but they were arbitrarily added on-
因为他们有共谋指控，所以他们能把那些人加进来。
Because they had the conspiracy charge, they were able to bring them in.
我理解是这样的，对。
That's my understanding of it, yeah.
所以这使她的刑期从大约四年半或五年提高到了十一年。
So that raised her sentence from something like four and a half or five years to 11.
而且这带来了两个后果，一个是增加了损失金额，另一个就是现在变成了涉及十个或更多受害者的欺诈案。
And because there's two things that it did, so one of which is it increased the loss amount, and then the second thing is it was now fraud of 10 or more victims.
但有一个特别有意思的点是，最近伊丽莎白的刑期被减了一年，因为量刑指南改了，而且当时连政府都承认，没有证据表明那些亏了钱的投资者因此遭遇了经济困难。
But one really interesting thing to note is that recently we got a one-year sentence reduction for Elizabeth because they changed the sentencing guidelines, and at that time, even the government argued that there was no evidence that any of the investors who lost money faced any financial hardship from this.
这些人包括德沃斯家族、沃尔顿家族，还有——
These are people like the DeVos family, and the Waltons, and-
……尼亚科斯家族，或者那些真正的——
... the Niarkos or these really-
对，所以她没法——
Yeah, and so she can't-
……超级有钱的人。
... rich guys
……在监狱小卖部买东西吃什么的。
... buy food and stuff at the commissary.
看起来挺难的，或者说确实很难。
It seems like it's a, or, I mean, it's difficult to.
她可以买。
She can buy it.
我们整个下午都在一起，在自动售货机那儿买混合坚果。
We spent the whole afternoon together buying trail mix at the vending machines.
对，她就像只松鼠。
Yeah, she's like a squirrel.
她吃起来就像——
She eats like-
她说，"我——"
She's like, "I-"
……吃不完的坚果。
... infinite nuts
"……
"...
我把所有的钱都花在自动售货机的混合坚果上了。"
I spent all the money I had on vending machine trail mix."
因为那真的太令人印象深刻了。
Because it was just really so remarkable.
我以前从没去过监狱，但当你看到囚犯时，很容易去轻视罪犯，但当你亲身经历这一切，你总会对那些因罪行而受罚的人产生一些感触。
I've never been to prison before, but when you see prisoners, it's easy to dismiss criminals, but you go through this, you always have to feel something for people that are being punished for their crimes.
嗯，对我来说最难过的是，这个设施里有800名女性，而在某个周末，可能只有30个人会有人来探望。
Well, the saddest thing to me is there's 800 women in the facility, and on a given weekend, maybe 30 of them will get a visitor.
这真的让人心碎。
And it's just crushing.
你会看到那些小孩子哭着跟妈妈告别——
You see these little kids just crying, saying goodbye to their mom-
在门口尖叫。
... and screaming at the door.
我想在结束前简单聊一下，媒体一直在报道你在经营Theranos 2.0。
I want to talk about, just real quick as we wrap, people in the press have been reporting that you're running Theranos 2.0.
你现在在做什么业务，为什么——
What is the business you're building today, and why is it-
不是Theranos 2.0吗？
... not Theranos 2.0?
绝-
I mean, abso-
你是怎么开始的？是伊丽莎白的事情，你为她做还是和她一起做，还是怎么来的？
How did you get, is it an Elizabeth thing that you're doing this for or with, or how did this come to be for you?
对，我的背景是在光子学领域。
Yeah, so my background's in the photonic space.
我帮助建立了一家公司，叫Luminar。
I helped build a company called Luminar.
我们用激光为自动驾驶汽车制造了LIDAR，所以我有光子学的背景。
We built LIDAR for autonomous vehicles using lasers, so I've got background in photonics.
我做了好几年，然后我发现伊丽莎白的使命非常吸引人，希望你们也这么觉得。
I did that for a handful of years, and I found Elizabeth's mission incredibly compelling, as I hope you all do.
现在的诊断方式有问题，太贵了，我们想让它更普及、更便宜。
The idea that diagnostics are broken today, they're way too expensive, and we want to make it more accessible and cheaper.
在Theranos失败之后，很少有人敢在这个领域尝试这么宏大的事情。
And in the wake of Theranos failing, very few people have tried to do something incredibly ambitious in that space.
所以我的公司叫Haemanthys。
So my company is called Haemanthys.
我们正在打造一种新型传感器，用来更好地理解生物学。我们用的是一种叫拉曼光谱的技术，就是让光穿过生物样本。
We are building a new layer of sensors to better understand biology, so we use a technique called Raman spectroscopy, in which we shine light through biological samples.
光穿过样本时会产生散射效应，颜色会发生变化，然后你就可以解读出样本里有哪些化学结构。
It creates a scattering effect where the light changes color, and then you can interpret what chemical structures are within that sample.
这项技术其实非常成熟。
And this is a really well-known technique.
全国各地的研究实验室都在用。
People do it in research labs around the country.
问题是这些设备要几百万美元，好几米长，用起来特别复杂。
The problem is these devices are millions of dollars, many feet long, super complicated to use.
所以我把在光子学领域学到的很多经验用在这里，让这些设备更便宜、更普及，这样我们就能给人工智能提供丰富而深入的生物学数据集。
So I'm taking a lot of the learnings from my work in the photonic space to make these cheaper and widely distributed so we can give artificial intelligence really rich and deep data sets for biology.
现在大多数东西都是为人类医生设计的，我们想创造非常深入的数据集，让人工智能能够利用这些数据在所有这些不同的信号之间建立关联。
Today, most things are built for human doctors to understand, and we're trying to create really deep data sets that artificial intelligence can use to create correlations between all these disparate signals.
所以是基于光子的——
So photon-based-
对
Yep
……化学检测——
... chemical detection-
基于激光的
Lasers based
……可以广泛应用于各种不同的技术。
... that can be used broadly in a bunch of different techniques.
所以Theranos 2.0的故事可能有点炒作——
And so the Theranos 2.0 story may be a bit of a press for-
你看，什么更卖座？
I mean, look, what sells more?
就像比利在开发技术——
Like Billy builds technology-
拉曼光谱设备？
Raman spectroscopy devices?
对，这确实不太能吸引点击量。
Yeah, it doesn't exactly drive clicks.
所以，把伊丽莎白·霍姆斯说成是像埃尔·查波那样在监狱里操控诊断卡特尔，比说比利在做一个不起眼的科技公司要容易得多。
So it's a lot easier to make it seem like Elizabeth Holmes is El Chapo running a diagnostics cartel from prison-
好的
Okay
……而不是说比利在做一个不起眼的科技公司。
... than it is to say Billy's building a nerdy company.
好吧，比利，感谢你今天来参加我们的节目。
Well, look, I appreciate you being with us today, Billy.
我知道在过去一年半里我们聊了很多。
I know we've talked a lot over the last year and a half.
开始分享你的故事，我觉得你和伊丽莎白的故事还有很多没讲完。
To start to share your story, I think there's a lot more of your story and Elizabeth's story still to come.
在结束之前，你还有什么想说的吗？
Is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up?
天哪。
Gosh.
我想说的太多了，但我就想说谢谢你们听我讲。
There's so many things that I want to say, but I just want to say thank you guys for listening.
我真的很感激。
I really appreciate it.
谢谢你来做客。
Thanks for being here.
谢了，兄弟。
Thank you, bro.
当然。
Of course.
我们做到了。
We did it.
而你想要放手。
And you want to let go.
等等。
Hold on.
有些黑子在等着你犯错。
It's some haters waiting for you to slip
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