流亡伊朗王子礼萨·巴列维：过渡计划与伊朗自由之战

好了，各位。

Alright, everybody.

欢迎回到《全在播客》第263集的第二部分。

Welcome back to part two of the all in podcast episode 263.

我们之所以承诺会有第二部分，是因为我们非常幸运，我的好朋友谢尔文·皮沙瓦尔今天为我们安排了一场非常重要且具有历史意义的访谈。

We promised you a part two because we are very lucky that my dear friend, Shervin Pishevar, was able to set up a very important historic interview for us today.

今天到场的正是雷扎·巴列维王子，而我们与您相处的时间非常有限，雷扎。

None other than prince Reza Pahlavi is here, and we have a limited amount of time with you, Reza.

我可以叫你雷扎吗？还是应该称你为雷扎王子？

And may I call you Reza, or should I call you prince Reza?

好的。

Fine.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢你邀请我参加你的节目。

Thanks for driving me on your program.

很高兴你能来。

It it's great to have you.

我认为这一刻你已经等待了将近四十七年，接近五十年了——此刻，我们正见证伊朗人民可能获得自由。

And this is a moment I think you've been waiting forty seven, close to fifty years for, which is we are, at this moment in time, looking at potentially the people of Iran being free.

你17岁时离开国家去当飞行员，如今你希望帮助你的人民在当前这场军事行动——本质上是一场战争——结束后实现过渡。我们都希望这场战争能尽快结束，人们非常想知道，你对这场军事行动之后的伊朗有何愿景。

You left the country in when you were 17 years old to become a pilot, and now you are looking to help your people with the transition post this military activity, this operation, essentially a war that's going on right now that we all hope gets resolved quickly, I think people would love to know what is your vision for Iran post this military action.

再次感谢你给我这个机会。

Well, thank you again for the opportunity.

在深入讨论之前，我想强调这次干预的重要性，对我们而言，这就像一次救援行动。

Before I get into that, I wanted to simply stress the importance of this intervention that to us was like a rescue mission.

这是一次纯粹的人道主义干预，旨在保护更多生命，否则在这一极其残暴和压迫的政权下，这些生命将被夺走。正如你所知，该政权最近已屠杀数万名无辜的平民。

It was literally a humanitarian intervention to protect more lives that would otherwise be lost under this extremely brutal and repressive regime that, as you know, has massacred as of late tens of thousands of innocent and unarmed citizens.

为了平衡局势，这次干预是迫切需要的，许多伊朗人曾呼吁这样的行动，幸运的是，它终于发生了。

In order to equalize the playing field, this was a much needed intervention that a lot of Iranians asked for, and fortunately it did happen.

但接下来该怎么做？

But what's the next step?

我们接下来要去哪里？

Where are we headed to?

最明显的问题是，一旦政权垮台，我们如何管理过渡？

The most obvious question will be, once the regime collapses, how do we manage the transition?

我已挺身而出，在众多来自各个领域的同胞协助下领导这一过渡进程。

I've stepped in to lead this transition with the help of many of my compatriots from various sectors.

我们相信，一个稳定的过渡将首先满足国家的迫切需求，然后为国家的再发展与重建铺平道路，而这正是我们一直期盼却在这一腐败如黑手党的政权下无法实现的。

We believe that a stable transition will lead to, a, address the immediate needs of the country, but then set the country on a path of redevelopment and reconstruction, which is, of course, something that we were always hoping for that could not have happened under this corrupt mafia like regime.

如果没有那场革命，伊朗本应成为今天地区内的韩国。

Iran should have been, had it not been for the revolution, today's South Korea of the region.

但如今，它却变成了地区内的朝鲜。

Instead, it has become the North Korea of the region.

为什么？

Why?

这并不是因为我们的人民缺乏天赋、才能或能力，也不是因为我们缺乏自然资源，而纯粹是因为腐败低效的管理，以及一个将我们的国家劫持为输出意识形态跳板的政权，这正是我们今天处境的原因。

Not because our people are not gifted or talented or capable, not because we lack natural resources, it's simply because of corrupt, bad management and a regime that basically took our country hostage, used it as a launching pad to export an ideology, and that's why we are here today.

一个不同的伊朗，一个民主、世俗的伊朗，将首先为我们的国家带来机遇，同时也会重新向国际商业开放伊朗。

A different Iran, a democratic, secular Iran, will first and foremost bring about the opportunities to our nation, but it will open Iran for business again.

伊朗是二十一世纪最具潜力的经济机会之一，这不仅将极大改善伊朗人民的生活，也将从美国等国家的角度带来数十亿美元的收益，因为与伊朗开展贸易将产生巨大经济回报。

Iran is one of the most untapped economic opportunities of the twenty first century, and it could tremendously change the shape of our world in terms of what would be beneficial to the Iranian people, of course, but also from the vantage point of a country like The United States and billions of dollars that will be generated as a result of doing business in Iran.

我们预计，在头十年内，仅美国市场就能获得约一万亿美元的收益，同时还将有数十亿美元投资到伊朗，用于我们国家重建所需的各项建设。

We figure about 1,000,000,000,000 in the first ten years to The US market, but also billions of dollars that will be invested into Iran and everything that we need to have done in order to rebuild our country.

这些是我们可以期待的惊人机遇，而这一切都始于迈向恢复与过渡。

These are crazy opportunities that we can look forward to, and it all starts with moving towards this recovery and transition.

当你的父亲掌权时，那是一个君主制，后来演变成了独裁。

And when your father was in charge, it was a monarchy, turned into a dictatorship.

需要明确的是，如今的希望是逐步演变为一个拥有自由选举的民主制度，伊朗人民的平均年龄现在是三十出头，31到32岁。

And to be clear, the hope now is to evolve into a democracy with free elections for the people, average age of people in Iran now, early thirties, 31, 32 years old.

那会是什么样子？

What would that look like?

可能的时间表是怎样的？

What is a possible timeline?

你曾在其他节目和你的YouTube频道上说过，我建议每个人都去搜索并关注，因为你正在通过X平台和YouTube频道直接与民众对话。

And you are have said on other programs and and on your YouTube channel, which I suggest everybody go search for and follow right now because you're speaking directly to the people on x and on your YouTube channel.

你所接触的这些人，现实情况如何？

What what is the condition on the ground from the people you're talking to?

你提到你一直在与军人、平民以及其他领导人交谈。

You said you've been talking to people in the military, civilians, and other leadership.

他们已经准备好行动了。

They're ready to move on.

时间表是怎样的？他们告诉你，就在我们此刻交谈时，地面正在发生什么？

What's the timeline, and what are they telling you is happening on the ground today as we sit here?

我认为，现在局势已经趋于平衡，意味着人们终于可以在这一轮竞选结束后，更好地重返街头，夺回自己的家园。

Well, I think that now the playing field has been equalized, meaning that the people could finally, of course, awaiting the end of this campaign, have a better opportunity to reengage the streets and take over their homeland.

当然，这其中的一部分在于政权内部的崩溃程度，以及政权内部有多少人会这次选择倒戈，与人民站在一起，而不是成为阻碍人民进步的工具，而是协助人民完成这一过渡——无论他们是军方、安全部队，还是文职官僚。

Of course, part of the equation is how much implosion from within the regime and how much defections from the regime in the sense of joining with the people this time and not be an instrument that will halt the people's progress, but instead help the people in that transition, meaning whether people are in the military or security forces as well as the civilian bureaucracy.

与萨达姆·侯赛因倒台后的去复兴党化不同，伊朗的变革情景截然不同。

Unlike what happened after the fall of Saddam Hussein and debaatification, the scenario of change in Iran is totally different.

我们也不要忘记，伊朗是一个拥有数百年历史的国家。

And let's not forget, Iran is a multiple century old nation state.

这个国家为了共同的目标而高度团结一致。

It's a country that is extremely unified and united for this common purpose.

在这个框架下，各种不同的群体都参与了这场全国性的运动。

Under this tent, we have diverse groups that are joining in this national campaign.

包括右翼、中间派、左翼，君主派、共和派，以及各个民族和宗教群体。

People who are on the right, the center, the left, monarchies, Republicans, ethnic groups, religious groups.

社会的每一个阶层都已参与其中。

Every sector of society is engaged.

我收到了来自伊朗国内的巨大支持。

I have had tremendous amount of support coming from inside Iran.

我们得到了情报部门的支持。

We have the support of the intelligence here.

我们得到了大学的支持。

We have the support of universities.

我们得到了工人阶级的支持。

We have the support of the working class.

我们得到了海外侨民的支持，他们能为这一进程带来巨大贡献。

We have the support of the diaspora that can bring a lot to this equation.

我认为这是一个良好的方案，能够帮助我们顺利实现过渡，让国家清理整顿、做好商业准备，并创造机会，最终首先惠及那些因该政权腐败而长期受苦的伊朗人，让他们真正有机会重振旗鼓、改善生活。

I think this is a good recipe that will allow us to manage this transition, but set the country to clean up, be ready for business, and create the opportunities that will finally impact, first and foremost, Iranians who have been starving as a result of this regime's corruption, but have a true opportunity to get back on track and improve their livelihood.

我认为这对与我们合作的伙伴也有利，因为有许多事情可以做，这些都将实现双赢，而不是像过去近五十年那样，让腐败政权坐收渔利。

And I think it's also good for those who partner with us in this process because there's a lot to be done that would be win win as opposed to be lose lose to the benefit of this corrupt regime That has been the story of the past almost five decades.

因此，这种变革的不同之处及其关键性就在这里。

So the difference lies about this change and how crucial it is.

当然，我们希望最终建立一个世俗民主政体，其具体形式将由伊朗人民通过选举前的宪法程序来决定。

And, of course, the reason we want to have a secular democracy, the final form to be determined by the people of Iran through pre elections and a constitutional process.

但最重要的是，在平等和法治之下，过去因歧视和几乎全面压制大多数伊朗人而被剥夺的所有机会，现在终于得以实现。

But most importantly is that under equality and the rule of law, all the opportunities that has been denied our nation as a result of its discrimination, as a result of pretty much dissynprising the majority of Iranians, now it creates a true opportunity.

正如我前面所说，我认为伊朗人非常有才华。

And as I said earlier, I think Iranians are quite gifted.

尽管这对外界的创业者来说极具吸引力，但如今许多有天赋的年轻伊朗人将首次获得公平的机会，真正发挥他们的创造力和才华，让我们的国家重焕生机。

As much as it is attractive to entrepreneurs in the outside world looking in, there are so many gifted and talented young Iranians who will have a fair chance this time, a true chance for being using all their creativity and genius to bring our country back online.

这将是一次绝佳的、令人期待的合作伙伴关系。

This will be an excellent, fantastic partnership that we're looking forward to.

所以你提到希望亲自到当地去。

So you've spoken about wanting to be on the ground there.

你为自己设定了哪些条件和时间表？

What conditions and what timeline do you have for yourself?

这似乎是一项风险很高的举动。

And this seems like a a pretty high risk thing to do.

你现在就去那个国家，确实需要很大的勇气。

It'd be pretty brave of you to go to the country now.

你需要满足哪些条件，才能在四十七年后首次回到伊朗、回到家乡？

What conditions have to be met for you to go to Iran to go home for the first time in forty seven years?

你认为我们离民众走上街头、开启这一转型还有多近？

And how close do you think we are to the people taking the streets now and for starting this transition?

说实话，要给出一个确切的时间表非常困难。

Well, to be honest with you, it's very difficult to put an exact timeline.

会加速这一进程的因素包括：与政权的分离程度、叛逃人数、国内组织和结构的加强，以及我们如何与那些未参与这场运动的内部力量合作。

Factors that will expedite it is the level of separation from the regime, the level of defections, the strengthening of domestic organizations and structure, how can we partner with elements from within that are not joining this campaign.

所有这些因素都将影响过渡的迅速程度。

All of these are factors that will contribute to the rapidity of the transition.

至于我本人前往那里，显然需要确保安全到足以让我前往。

As far as myself being there, obviously, there are security concerns to make sure that it's safe enough for me to go there.

如果我死了，对任何人都没有帮助。

I'm no use to anyone if I'm dead.

所以显然，这一点必须牢记在心。

So obviously, have to keep that in mind.

但我希望尽可能早地到达那里，以便在这场进程中尽我所能提供帮助。

But I would like to be able to be there as soon as possible to be able to help as much as I can in this process.

显然，身处一个国家是有优势的。

Obviously, being in a country is an advantage.

从远处做事很难。

It's hard to do things from far away.

由于环境所迫，我别无选择，只能流亡在外。

I had no choice to be living in exile because of the circumstances.

但我认为机会正在出现，一旦出现让我安全返回伊朗的机会，我当然会抓住它。

But I think that the opportunity is presenting itself, and the the first opportunity that is created for me to safely return to Iran will obviously be there.

就在今天早上，特朗普说，在伊朗政府残余势力无条件投降之前，不会达成任何协议。

Just this morning, Trump said there will be no deal in Iran until unconditional surrender is given by whatever is left of the government there.

你对这个条件怎么看？

What do you think of that condition?

这是正确的做法吗？

Is that the right move?

你同意特朗普的最后通牒吗？

Do you agree with Trump's ultimatum?

让我从国内的视角来看一下这个问题。

Well, let me look at it from the domestic prison.

要实现成功的过渡，最终必须得到伊朗人民的认可。

In order for a successful transition to occur, it has ultimately to be something that is legitimate in the eyes of the Iranian people.

我们不可能为了维持这个政权的残余而牺牲数万人的生命。

We haven't lost so many tens of thousands of lives just to settle for a continuity of the remnants of this regime.

这种做法行不通。

That will not fly.

人们渴望彻底的决裂。

People will want to have a clean break.

替代方案是，所有支持世俗民主替代力量的人，无论今天是否正从政权中脱离，都能就四个核心原则达成一致，共同合作。

The alternative will be for all those who align with the secular democratic alternative, And there are some four core principles that whoever adheres to to that, including people who may today peel away from the regime, would be able to agree to work together on that platform.

首要问题是伊朗的领土完整。

The first and foremost issue is, of course, Iran's territorial integrity.

这一点深深牵动着数百万伊朗人的心，他们代表了我们这个多元国家的各个民族、宗教等方面。

That's an issue that is very close to the hearts of millions of Iranians representing every aspect of our diversified country in terms of ethnicities, religions and what have you.

但我们依然团结在同一个旗帜下，作为一个统一的国家。

But we find ourselves in this united cause under one flag and under one nation.

民主的第二个前提是宗教与国家的明确分离。

The second element that is a prerequisite to democracy is a clear separation of religion from state.

这是实现民主的关键要素。

That's a critical element for a democracy to occur.

公民在法律面前一律平等，法治显然是保障我们所讨论的所有权利的关键方面。

Equality of all citizens under the law, and the rule of law obviously is a critical aspect that guarantees all of the rights we're talking about.

民主进程本身，意味着人民可以选举代表参加制宪会议，讨论未来体制的构想及其法律应如何制定，并由人民批准，从而实现新民主体制下第一届议会的选举，以及该民主体制下第一届政府的选举，届时过渡政府将权力移交给人民选出的未来政府代表。

And the democratic process itself, meaning the fact that people can elect their representatives to go to this constitutional assembly to debate the issues of what the next system could look like and what its laws should be, ratified by the people, which would bring us to the election of the first parliament of this new democracy, and, of course, the election of the first government of such democracy, at which point the transitional government hands over power to the elected representative of the people in the future government.

这基本上就是我们希望推动这一过渡的方向，而我正在参与推动这一过渡，制定了一份详尽的计划，特别聚焦于头一百天。

That's pretty much the the the direction that we hope to manage this transition, and I'm playing a role in bringing about this transition with a vague, well crafted plan that is in detail explaining, particularly focusing on the first hundred days.

我创建了一个名为‘伊朗繁荣计划’（IPP）的组织，但其首要重点是头一百天。

I created an organization called IPP, which is Iran Prosperity Project, but its first focus is the first hundred days.

我们如何立即稳定伊朗的局势？

How we immediately stabilize the situation in Iran?

我们如何最大限度地保留那些将加入我们的剩余力量，以确保在政权更迭后仍能在未来占有一席之地？

How can we maximize the remaining elements that will join with us to be able to survive regime change and have a place in the future?

这些是第一批组成部分，然后我们继续推进计划。

These are the first components, and then we move forward with the plan.

两个快速的问题。

Two quick questions.

在任何情况下，这都不会是君主制吧？

Under no circumstances, would that be a monarchy?

我认为每个人都会问你这个问题，因为你是王子。

I think is a question everybody has for you because you're the prince.

这是一个民主制度。

This is a democracy.

在民主国家里没有王子。

We don't have princes in democracies.

其次，你理想中在转型过程中扮演什么角色？

And then number two, what do you ideally see as your role in the transition?

你是否希望有机会竞选总统，带领国家走出这长达四十七年的可怕噩梦？

And then would you like to have the opportunity to run for president and to lead the country out of this horrific nightmare of forty seven years?

我的重点在于过程，而不是结果。

My focus is on the process, not the outcome.

作为中立的调解者，我不会偏向任何一种形式。

And in as a neutral arbiter, I'm not taking sides with one form versus the other.

这应该由伊朗人民来决定。

That's for the people of Iran to choose.

我认为世界已经见证了共和制和君主制两种成功的模式。

And I think the world has seen successful models in both a republican system and a monarchic system.

例子呢？

Examples?

像印度、以色列、法国或美国这样的共和国，虽然并不完全相同，但都属于共和体制。

A republic that you have like in India or like in Israel or in France or The United States are not exactly the same, but that's under the republican structure.

在议会制君主制方面，我们有日本、瑞典、西班牙等国家的例子。

In terms of parliamentary monarchies, we have the example of Japan, Sweden, Spain, other countries.

因此，我认为不能简单地将民主等同于某一种特定的结果。

So I don't think that necessarily you can equate democracy with one outcome in particular.

人们或许可以借鉴这两种模式。

It could be both models that people can emulate.

所以归根结底，你知道，选择什么结果不是我该决定的。

So at the end of the day, you know, again, it's not for me to choose the outcome.

我的角色是为实现这一结果搭建桥梁。

I'm here to be a bridge towards that outcome.

过渡性领导者的职责不在于竞选公职，也不在于追求个人权力或权威，而在于成为凝聚国家、推动全民达成共同目标的纽带，让国家自主决定其偏好的制度。

That's the function of a transitional leader, not to run for office or not to have an aim for personal position of power or authority, but to be the element that unites the country towards a common purpose and allow the nation to decide what is their preferred system.

选举和自由选举的真正意义就在于此。

That's what elections and free elections should be all about.

投票箱是衡量民众意见的唯一方式，多数人的选择将决定最终结果，这正是我所期望推动的过程。

And the ballot box is the only means to measure people's opinion, and the majority will decide on that, and that's the process that I envisage to bring about.

你认为伊朗人民想要什么？

What do you believe the people of Iran want?

在君主制这一类别中，还有海湾地区的君主国，比如沙特阿拉伯、阿联酋、卡塔尔。

And in that monarchy subset, there are the Gulf monarchies, the kingdom, UAE, Qatar.

它们显然与议会制系统有明显不同。

They are obviously distinctly different than a parliamentary, you know, system.

所以我假设你并不希望看到那样的情况。

So I assume you wouldn't wanna see that.

你认为伊朗人民会投票支持什么？

What do you think the people of Iran will vote for?

嗯，正如你所说的那样。

Well, just what you said.

我的意思是，一个民主制度明确界定了它应该如何运作，以及不应该如何运作。

I mean, we a democratic system clearly outlines how it should be and and how it should not.

我的意思是，如果你要找一个与美国最接近的君主制国家，从技术上讲，那就是加拿大。

I mean, if you wanna look at the closest monarchy to The United States, technically speaking, is Canada.

如果你愿意这样看待的话。

And, know, if you wanna look it that way.

我认为加拿大人对他们所享有的民主制度相当满意。

And I think Canadians are quite happy with the democracy that they enjoy.

再者，我们也有非常优秀的共和国模式。

And again, we have very good models of republic.

一个典型的例子就是美国。

Case in point, The United States.

归根结底，正如我所说，这需要伊朗人民在审视了这次的情况后——与五十年前发生的事不同——来决定什么最符合他们的利益。

At the end of the day, as I said, it's for the Iranian people to determine what would be in their best interest having looked this time unlike what happened, by the way, fifty years ago.

当时没有人清楚霍梅尼究竟在提议什么。

Nobody had a clear idea what Khomeini was suggesting in

条款

terms

他们所谓的这个Velaide Fakti，或者说最高领袖的监护权。

of this Velaide Fakti, as they call it, or the tutelage of the Supreme Leader.

等到他接管并建立权力时，已经太迟了。

By the time he took over and power was established, it was too late.

自那时起，我们就一直受制于这个政权。

And since then we've been hostages to this regime.

这一次，伊朗人民应在完全透明的情况下，清楚了解各种可供选择的模式。

This time in full transparency, Iranian people ought to have a clear idea of different models presented to them.

在此基础上，充分理解每一种模式的方方面面后，他们才能做出自己的选择。

And on that basis, having understood every aspect of what it could be, then they make their choice.

这一过程应当完全透明，并留出充足的时间来讨论各种不同的观点。

This is a process that should be totally transparent with enough time for debating different ideas.

而且，正如我所说，让民主进程自然展开，让人民通过多数投票决定他们最终的选择。

And again, as I said, let the democratic process unfold and let the people vote in majority what is their final choice.

我来这里不是为了决定结果。

I'm not here to determine an outcome.

再次强调，我的角色是管理这一过渡过程，创造一个机会，让人民在被剥夺了半个世纪的发言权后，终于能够决定他们自己在主权和民主决定未来方面的意愿。

Again, I stress my role here is to manage this transition and create an opportunity that people have been deprived of for half a century to finally have a say as to what they would like to have for themselves in terms of sovereignty and determining their own future democratically.

最后一个问题，我会和你，谢尔文，深入探讨一下这个计划的细节，我知道你正在协助制定，我也假设你会参与执行。

Final question, and I'll get into a bunch of details with you, Shervin, as to the plan, which I know you're helping construct and I'm assuming you'll help execute on.

特朗普说他会挑选下一位领导人。

Trump says he's going to pick the next leader.

特朗普说了许多话。

Trump says a lot of things.

他有时说得很有挑衅性，但他表示不确定你如何在自己的国家里行事。

He says them sometimes in a provocative way, but he said he's not sure how you would play within your own country.

显然有人举着你的照片。

There's obviously people holding up your picture.

有些人可能试图从上一届政府手中接管这一局面。

There are people who are maybe vying to take control of this from the previous administration.

你和特朗普总统有联系吗？你们现在的关系如何？

Are you in touch with president Trump, and what's your relationship with him today?

你对他最有力的恳求或论点是什么，以促使他与你合作？

What's your best plea to him or your argument to him to work with you?

听好了。

Look.

议程中没有任何隐瞒。

There's nothing hidden in the agenda.

一切都是透明的，我一直在通过史蒂夫·惠特科夫与政府沟通，他已公开宣布此事。

Everything is transparent, and I've been communicating with the administration by Steve Whitkoff, who announced it publicly.

因此，这些信息是直接传达给特朗普总统的。

That's why it's on channel to president Trump.

当然，在另一侧，我也与国会议员、参议员和众议员们就立法进行沟通，以便从美国的角度更好地理解我们在这里提出的主张。

And, of course, on the other side, in the legislation with members of congress, senators, and congresspeople to understand a little bit from the American prism what it is that we are proposing here.

我认为，特朗普总统或世界上任何其他领导人，都不会认为自己有权力决定伊朗的下一任领导人是谁。

I don't think that President Trump or any other leader in this world would presume that it is up to them to determine who should be the next leader in Iran.

我相信，作为民主国家，他们尊重人民做出这一选择的权利。

I'm sure as democracies, they respect the right for people to make that choice.

作为西方民主国家，理所当然应该认为，选择未来领导人的权利只属于伊朗人民。

And as Western democracies, it should be going without saying that they would believe that the the right to choose, the future leaders is only up to the Iranian people.

如果目的是协助这一进程，如果意图是支持伊朗人民的民主诉求，那么你们应当提供帮助，但选择权必须属于他们。

If the intention is to assist that process, if the, intent is to support the Iranian people in their democratic aspiration, you provide them with the help, but the choice should be theirs.

这一直是我的立场，我认为在这方面，无论是与特朗普总统，还是与其他我曾就此问题交流过的世界领导人，都没有分歧。

That has been my position, and I don't think there's a disagreement on that, whether it is with president Trump or other world leaders that I've also talked to about this matter.

当我让你离开时，美国人民应该了解伊朗的精神、文化和人民，包括像你和你的家人一样在1979年逃离的人们？

As I let you go, what should the American people know about the spirit, the culture, and the people of Iran, including the people who fled in 1979 like you and your family?

我知道很多美国人都有伊朗朋友。

Well, I I know many Americans who have many Iranian friends.

事实上，如果你只看美国境内的伊朗侨民，就会发现伊朗裔美国人与他们的美国同伴之间有着多么密切的互动。

As a matter of fact, if you just look at the Iranian diaspora in The United States alone, you will see how much, interaction there is between Iranians who are now Iranian Americans, if you will, many of them, and the kind of relationship they are built with their American counterpart.

很多人通过婚姻建立了联系。

Many people have connections via marriages.

很多人通过商业合作建立了联系。

Many people have connections through business affiliations.

很多人曾与伊朗人共事过。

Many people have worked with Iranians.

许多高科技公司，包括硅谷，雇佣了大量伊朗人，是的。

Many of the high-tech companies, including Silicon Valley, employ so many Iranians Yes.

或者他们自己就是企业家。

Or they are themselves entrepreneurs.

这种潜力正是如此，我相信谢尔文会跟你更详细地谈这一点。

This is the kind of potential, and I'm sure Shervin will talk to you more about that.

但这就是存在的联系。

But this is the kind of connections there is.

对于那些曾去过伊朗或多年来认识伊朗人的美国人来说，他们知道伊朗代表的是怎样的国家，承载着多么丰富的文化、艺术，乃至真正意义上的文明。

And for Americans that have traveled to Iran or have known Iranians all these years, they know what what what country it represents, what amount of culture, arts, I mean, civilization in a true sense Iranians represent.

而这些却被这个政权彻底压制了。

And they've been completely suffocated under this regime.

但一旦伊朗摆脱了枷锁，我相信许多美国人会清楚地认识到，一个希望与美国交好的伊朗，和一个从成立之初就喊出‘打倒美国’或‘打倒以色列’的政权，是截然不同的。

But once Iran is is, you know, free from its shackles, I'm sure a lot of Americans know what difference there is between an Iran that wants to be friends with America that is not the regime that has from its inception called death to America or death to Israel, for instance.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但确实有一些伊朗人非常热爱美国。

But there are Iranians who actually love to, America.

让我最后分享一个想法，因为我觉得我时不时需要提醒你的观众和其他观众。

Let me just give you a last parting thought, because I think every now and then I need to remind your audience and other audiences.

我们之前谈到了该地区的其他国家。

We talked about other countries in the region.

还记得9/11吗？

Remember 09/11?

是的。

Yes.

在许多所谓美国盟友的街头，有多少人曾为那个邪恶日子的袭击事件而庆祝？

And how many people on the streets of many of the so called allies of The United States were celebrating that attack on that sinister day?

全世界和整个地区中，唯一为9/11恐怖袭击的受害者举行烛光守夜以示同情的国家，正是伊朗人民自己在伊朗举行的烛光守夜。

The only country in the entire world and the entire region that actually stood in candlelight vigils in sympathy to the victims of the nine eleven terrorist attacks were no other than the Iranian people themselves holding candlelight vigils in Iran.

多年来，他们一直在向美国传达：我们不是你们的敌人。

And they've been messaging America for years now, we are not your enemies.

事实上，伊朗人一直在喊口号说：他们在骗我们，是美国。

In fact, have been chanting slogans in Iran saying, they lie to us, it's America.

我们的敌人就在这里。

Our enemy is right here.

我所说的正是这样的伊朗。

This is the Iran I'm talking about.

我所说的正是这样的人民。

This is the people I'm talking about.

我知道许多美国人，包括美国的平民和军方人员，都明白这一点。

And I know many Americans both in the civilian sector, including military forces in America, know that.

我相信，谈论这一点的绝不止我一个人。

And I think that's something that I'm sure I'm not the only one talking about this.

你将会听到其他伊朗人，他们几乎都会证实我刚才所说的话。

You will hear from other Iranians who will pretty much confirm what I just said.

因此，这种伙伴关系对我们来说至关重要，因为只有携手合作，我们才能重建一个不同的世界。

That's why this partnership is so vital for us because together we will be able to rebuild a different world.

伊朗将为本地区乃至更广范围带来稳定，而这只会符合美国自身的利益。

Iran will bring an element of stability to the region and beyond and that can only play to the interests of America itself.

我们需要这种至关重要的伙伴关系，我认为我们能够成功，因为我看到如今每个人都非常致力于共同推动这一议程。

We need to have this vital partnership and I think we'll be able to succeed because I see everybody now is very much committed to work together towards bringing this agenda forward.

我们都在为伊朗人民能够实现民主而祈祷，当你们以任何身份回归并帮助这一转型时，那将是一个多么令人惊叹的时刻。

Well, we're we're all praying for the people of Iran to have a democracy, and what an amazing moment it will be when you get to return in whatever capacity and help this transition.

九千三百万长期受苦的人们将生活在自由的民主制度中，这对世界产生的影响将是巨大的。

And 93,000,000 people who have been suffering will be living free in a democracy and the impact that could have on the world.

显然，这一地区将成为中东地区规模最大的民主国家。

And, obviously, that region would be by far the largest democracy in in The Middle East.

这可能会对人类产生极其惊人而美好的影响，繁荣也将令人惊叹。

And and this could have ramifications in terms of humanity that would be absolutely stunning and beautiful, and the prosperity would be amazing.

在我一生中遇到的伊朗人，王子，当我住在洛杉矶时，我遇到的这些优秀的波斯人，是我见过的最快乐、最勤奋、最美好的人之一。

The Iranian people I met in my life, Prince, when I was living in Los Angeles, all these great Persians I would meet were some of the most joyful and industrious, beautiful individuals I've met.

他们让我想起了我的希腊和爱尔兰血统，也包括你，谢尔文。

They remind me of my Greek and Irish heritage, including you, Shervin.

所以，雷扎王子，非常感谢你抽出时间。

So, Prince Reza, thank you so much for your time.

我知道你非常忙碌。

I know you're extremely busy.

对于所有在场的观众来说，听到你的声音并了解你的愿景非常重要，我们非常希望你能在你回到祖国、你的人民获得自由时再次回来。

It's very important for the all in audience to hear from you and to understand what's going on in your vision, and we would love to have you back when you're on the ground with your people and that your people are free.

再次感谢你。

Thank you again.

期待那一天的到来。

Looking forward to it.

好的，谢尔文。

Alright, Shervin.

非常感谢你安排了这次对话。

Thank you so much for setting this up.

当然。

Of course.

我很少向朋友提出要求，但作为好朋友，你为全体社区促成了这件事，我为此衷心感谢你。

I asked for very few favors from my friends, but as a good friend, you made this happen for the all in community, so we I thank you for that.

正如我对王子、在场的人民以及在美国的波斯人所说的那样，也许你可以跟我们分享一下你的故事，以及这对你意味着什么，然后我们再深入探讨你在这方面的参与，以及你希望在头一百天看到什么。

And as I as I said to to the prince, the people, and and the Persians here in The United States, maybe you tell us a little bit about your story and and what this means to you, and then we can get into your involvement here and what you hope to see in those first hundred days.

当然。

Of course.

首先，杰森，感谢你为伊朗人民和王子提供了这个绝佳的平台。

First of all, Jason, thank you for opening up this tremendous platform to the Iranian people and to the prince.

正如你所见，王储礼萨·巴列维是一位伟大的人物，是我见过的最勇敢的人，也是我遇到过的最具操守的人。

As you can see, the crown prince Reza Pahlavi is a is a great man, the most courageous man that I've ever met, and he's the highest integrity human I've I've met as well.

我们人民非常幸运，能拥有这样一位生活清廉、勇敢挺身而出的领袖。

We're very blessed as a people to have a leader like him who has lived a very clean life and has has stepped up in a very courageous way.

他为了自己的人民和传承，不惜一切，承担起这一关键的过渡角色，推动伊朗走向民主。

He's put it all on the line for his people and his legacy to play this tremendous transitional role to evolve the Iranian, you know, nation to a democracy.

我们所有伊朗兄弟姐妹所经历的长达四十七年的漫长噩梦，即将结束。

And this long nightmare of forty seven years that all of my Iranian brothers and sisters have suffered through is almost over.

同时，我也对特朗普总统在这一问题上的勇敢领导表示由衷的感谢。

And also a tremendous gratitude to president Trump, for his courageous leadership on this matter.

我认为，没有任何其他总统会具备这样的勇气、原则和价值观去挑战这个恐怖的伊斯兰政权。

I don't think any other president, would have the courage and the principle and the values to take on this Islamic regime of terror.

正如你上个月所见，他们屠杀了一万多名只是和平抗议的伊朗人。

As you saw last month, they massacred, over 43,000 Iranians who were just peacefully protesting.

他们用反器材子弹射杀了这些人。

They gunned them down with anti material bullets.

我发了一条帖子，把一罐可口可乐放在这些子弹旁边。

I I put a post of a Coca Cola can next to these bullets.

子弹比可乐罐还要大。

It was bigger than the can.

这就是

That's what

这一点非常重要，值得我们稍作思考。

the This is super important to to meditate on for a second here.

这个政权是一个残暴邪恶的政权，用枪械扫射四万多名和平抗议者，这种行为是野蛮与残暴的体现，而大多数人并未充分认识到这一点。

This regime is a murderous and evil regime to turn those guns and mow down 40,000 in over 40,000 individuals peacefully protesting is just an act of savagery and brutality that I think most people don't appreciate and or don't fully appreciate.

关于这一事实，媒体的报道还远远不够。

And we there hasn't been enough coverage of that fact.

不。

No.

你是一个两党皆宜的人。

And you are a bipartisan type person.

我认识你很多年了。

I've known you for many years.

你曾经是奥巴马的强力支持者。

You you were a super funder of Obama.

他没能做到这一点。

He he wasn't able to get this done.

拜登也没能做成这件事。

Biden wasn't able to get this done.

布什也没能完成这项工作。

Bush wasn't able to get this done.

这一直是总统们难以解决的问题，而你得给特朗普一些认可。

This has been something that presidents have struggled with, and you gotta give Trump credit here.

关于为什么会发生这种情况，有很多争论。

There's a lot of debate over why this is happening.

是以色列在推动吗？

Is it Israel driving it?

是中国的关系吗？

Is it the relationship with China?

我们在第一部分已经讨论过这一点。

We talked about on that in part one.

归根结底，作为一个伊朗人的儿子，重要的是人民是否自由。

At the end of the day, as a son of Iran, what matters is that the people are free.

所有这些其他阴谋论者的理论和动机，对你和人民来说都不重要。

All these other conspiracy theorists theories and motivations do not matter to you or the people.

是的？

Yeah?

绝对不是。

Absolutely not.

但我的一个核心原则是，我们的道德安全先于我们的物理安全。

But but one of my key principles is our our secure our moral security presages our physical security.

因此，这与美国人的安全和伊朗人的安全及生计都息息相关。

So this has as much to do with Americans' security as it does Iranians' security and livelihood.

正如你所见，这个政权不仅邪恶到能在48小时内屠杀43000名无辜平民。

As you saw, this regime is not only evil enough to mow down 43,000 innocent people in forty eight hours.

他们对这次解放行动的反应是攻击该地区超过12个国家。

Their reaction to this liberation operation is to attack over 12 countries in the region.

想象一下，如果他们拥有一枚核弹。

Imagine if they had a nuclear bomb.

他们会使用的。

They would use it.

他们会

They would

使用它。

use it.

我毫不怀疑，如果他们拥有核武器，现在早就已经使用了。

There's not even a doubt in my mind that they would have used it by now if they had it.

因此，这对美国的国家安全至关重要。

So this is incredibly important for America's national security.

正如王子所提到的，9·11事件发生了。

As the prince mentioned, nine eleven happened.

这是同一种意识形态，但我们这个时代的问题在于，犯罪和恐怖组织已经掌控了拥有核武器或正在寻求核武器的主权国家——无论你看看俄罗斯、中国、朝鲜、伊朗，还有委内瑞拉。

That's the same kind of ideology, except the problem we have in our modern time is that, basically, criminal and terrorist organizations have taken over sovereign nations with nuclear bombs or seeking nuclear bombs, wherever you have Russia, China, you know, if you have North Korea, and you have Iran, and then you have Venezuela.

所以，总统不仅推翻了委内瑞拉的马杜罗。

So the president has not only gotten rid of the Maduro in in Venezuela.

他现在已经开始拆除这个伊斯兰政权，这个政权根本不是合法政府，也不是合法的国家。

He has now begun this process of dismantling this this Islamic regime, who is absolutely not a legitimate government and not a legit legitimate nation state.

唯一有资格领导我们过渡到民主制度的领导人，是王储礼萨·巴列维。

And the only leader that is legitimate to lead us to a transition process to become a democracy is the crown prince Reza Pahlavi.

我认为，在我们这个时代，能同时拥有三位领导人是极其幸运的——他们分别是特朗普总统、内塔尼亚胡总理和王储礼萨·巴列维，都在同一时刻领导着我们。

We are very lucky, I think, in our modern times to have three leaders who are living at the same time and leading at the same time as president Trump, president Netanyahu, prime minister Netanyahu, and and the crown prince Reza Pahlavi, all at at in this one moment in time.

我认为我们正生活在圣经时代。

I think we're living in biblical times.

当十七事件发生时，我与迈克尔·艾森伯格、迈克尔·伯芬、贾斯汀·马汀、肖恩·拉德共同发起了以色列与伊朗的联盟，并开始举办这些与王储的沙龙活动。

When ten seven happened, I started the Israeli Iranian alliance with Michael Eisenberg, Michael Burfain, Justin Mateen, Sean Radd, and we started to host these salons with the crown prince.

一次是在纽约举行的。

One was in New York.

迈克尔·艾森伯格飞了过来，还有丹·洛布。

Michael Eisenberg flew in, Dan Loeb.

许多领袖都来了，这正是一个进程的开端——当年，风险投资家迈克尔·艾森伯格，也就是十五年前以色列排名第一的风投，与我们共进早餐时，我们就意识到必须加强以色列和犹太社群与波斯伊朗社群之间的联系，总有一天，我们会在德黑兰喝茶。

Lots of leaders came, and that was the beginning of the process that was seeded with a breakfast with Michael Eisenberg as a VC and the number one VC in Israel fifteen years ago where we said we have to do more between Israeli and Jewish community and the Persian Iranian community, and someday we're gonna have tea in Tehran.

去年，我们就此事撰写了一篇社论，并开始搭建这些桥梁。

And we wrote an op ed last year about this, and we began to build these bridges.

犹太民族与伊朗民族之间的联系可以追溯到两千五百年前。

And this connection between the Jewish people and the Iranian people goes back twenty five hundred years.

圣经中记载的居鲁士大帝，曾释放被囚禁在巴比伦的犹太人，将他们送回耶路撒冷的故土，并重建了他们的圣殿。

Cyrus the Great, who's in the Bible, freed the Jews from slavery in Babylon, returned them to their homeland in Jerusalem, and rebuilt their temple.

他因这一勇敢之举在《圣经》和犹太宗教节日中被铭记，这种联系至今已延续了两千五百年，呈现出一种圣经般的对称性。

And that he is celebrated for that courageous act in the Bible and in in Jewish religious, you know, holidays, and and it is a tremendous connection that goes back now twenty five hundred years later in kind of biblical symmetry.

犹太人帮助伊朗人摆脱了奴役。

You have the Jewish people helping free the Iranian people from their slavery.

同时，美国的建国历程中也存在一个许多人不知道的联系：托马斯·杰斐逊曾研读居鲁士大帝，而居鲁士颁布了人类历史上第一份人权宣言。

And at the same time, there is a connection between America's beginning that many people don't know is that Thomas Jefferson was a student of Cyrus the Great who declared the first declaration of human rights.

美国独立宣言、建国理念、权利法案和宪法中的许多原则，其根源都可追溯至居鲁士大帝和波斯历史。

And a lot of the principles that went into the declaration of of independence of America and the founding of America and the bill of rights and the constitution have had its roots in Cyrus the Great and Persian history.

因此，美国建国理念与伊朗人两千五百年来所秉持的原则之间，存在着一种美妙的联系，连接着犹太人、美国人和伊朗人。

And so this connection between America's founding and the principles that Iranians espoused for twenty five hundred years is this beautiful connection between the Jewish people, the American people, and the Iranian people.

这对该地区可能产生巨大的影响。

And this could have such a tremendous impact on the region.

以色列如今是该地区唯一的民主国家，而如果能让九千三百万伊朗人也实现民主。

You have essentially a lone democracy in Israel, and now to have 93,000,000 Iranians in a democracy.

如果这一目标能够实现——当然，前路漫长——这可能会引发不可控的连锁反应。

If that can be achieved, and listen, there's a long way to go, this could spiral out of control.

特朗普总统这一举动风险极高。

This was a very high risk move by Trump, president Trump.

因此，你必须充分肯定他的勇气，但他必须对此负责。

So you give him a lot of credit for that, but he has to own this.

让我们保持谦逊，同时为最好的结果祈祷。

So let's be humble, and and we gotta pray for the best here.

在这种情况下，事情可能会失控，但我们希望最终能实现民主。

Things can spiral out of control in these kind of situations, But let's hope that we do get to democracy there.

我很感兴趣。

I'm curious.

谢尔文，你曾在中东待过很长时间。

Shervin, you spent a lot of time in The Middle East.

在过去三年里，我努力学习和了解中东，希望现在已经跟上了步伐，并开始在那里做生意，接触了更多的人。

I have, over the last three years, gotten myself educated and caught up, I hope, and have started doing business there and and really meeting a a larger swath of people.

海湾君主国已经实现了惊人的现代化，首先是阿联酋、沙特阿拉伯，如今的王国，当然还有卡塔尔，以及阿曼和科威特也在现代化。

The Gulf monarchies have modernized incredibly, starting with The UAE, Saudi, now the kingdom, and, of course, Qatar as well modernizing Oman, Kuwait.

如果伊朗真的能直接实现民主，哪怕这有可能实现，您认为这对该地区会有什么影响？

What would Iran going straight to a democracy, if that is even possible, what would that do to the region in your mind?

我认为，海湾国家所做的一切，都是中东真正潜力的绝佳案例。

I think that everything what what the Gulf countries have done is a tremendous case study of what the potential for the Middle East truly is.

上帝赐予大多数海湾合作委员会国家石油和天然气资源，伊朗也同样拥有，这使它们能够独立拥有资源来发展自身。

Being blessed by God to have oil, gas the way that most GCC countries have and Iran so has gives them an advantage to be able to have the resources independently to develop themselves.

当你看看过去二十五年阿联酋发生的变化时，我2001年和2002年去过阿联酋，那时那里只有零星的建筑。

And when you look at what happened in UAE over the last twenty five years, I went to UAE in 2001, 2002, and there was a smattering of buildings there.

是的。

Yeah.

我见过

I've seen the

迪拜那时和现在的照片。

pictures of Dubai then and now.

这简直令人难以置信。

It's it's incredible.

非凡的成就。

Extraordinaries.

是的。

Yeah.

这太惊人了。

It's incredible.

这让我想起了20世纪50年代的美国。

And and it it reminds me of what America was like in the nineteen fifties.

二战结束后，艾森豪威尔修建了州际高速公路系统，美国由此发展成为超级大国。

When they came from back from World War two, Eisenhower built built the interstate highway system, and America developed into this superpower.

在许多方面，海湾合作委员会国家秉持着美国那种‘一切皆有可能’的精神。

And and in many ways, the GCC countries espouse that American mentality of everything is possible.

任何事都可能实现。

Anything is possible.

他们已经实现了自己的伟大。

And they've manifested their greatness.

你看看伊朗，有九千三百万极其聪明的人才却被压制了。

And you look at Iran, you have 93,000,000 unbelievably brilliant people who have been held back.

你看看在美国的伊朗侨民，那些我们熟悉的同胞，是的。

You look at the Iranian diaspora in America, just our fellow friends who you Yeah.

你知道的，达拉，达拉。

Know, Dara Dara.

沙伊，你自己。

Shay, yourself.

优步。

Uber.

是的。

Yeah.

我在优步的时候。

My myself at Uber.

当然，还有谷歌的奥米德·库里斯塔尼。

Of course, Omid Khouristani at Google.

是的。

Yes.

还有阿里在Databricks，还有皮埃尔·奥米德罗在eBay。

And Ali at at Databricks, know, Pierre Omidro at eBay.

当你把这些数字加总起来，就会发现这个小小的伊朗人群体在美国，尤其是在硅谷，创造了数万亿美元的价值，而我很幸运能成为这个圈子的一员。

When you add up the numbers, it gets the trillions of dollars of value have been created by this small population of Iranians in America and especially in Silicon Valley, and I've been blessed to be part of that circle.

而且，感谢上帝，美国为我们提供了一个安全的避风港，让我们能够发挥自己的才华。

And, you know, one, thank god for America that we had a a safe sanctuary to come and develop our brilliance.

但那里还有更多、甚至更出色的伊朗人。

But there are as many there's as many brilliant Iranians way more brilliant Iranians.

对。

Yeah.

从数量上看，差距要大得多。

On a numbers basis, it's it's a magnitude more.

因此，一个自由民主的伊朗将为世界和该地区带来最大的和平红利与经济红利。

And so this will be a free democratic Iran will be the greatest peace dividend and economic dividend to be gifted to the world and to the region.

所以我认为，中东将成为一个充满创新与未来投资的非凡之地，这一进程将加速推进。

So I think what'll happen is we will have an acceleration of The Middle East becoming this unbelievable place where innovation and investment in the future is happening.

我们正站在通用人工智能和高级超级智能的黎明时刻。

We're at the dawn of AGI and advanced superintelligence.

我们有量子计算，你、我，还有埃米尔、迈克尔等人，曾一起参与过我们的SPAC和D-Wave项目。

We have quantum computing, which you and I, you know, and Emil, Michael, others have done with our, you know, our our our SPAC and D Wave.

这些技术将加速人类的进步，而利用中东和伊朗在人力资源以及石油天然气财富方面的潜力，将能释放一个加速的未来，这是我们所有人都期待的。

These these technologies are are going to fast forward humanity and being able to tap into the resources of The Middle East and Iran in in human capital and in the oil and gas wealth to be able to unleash an accelerated future is something that we all look forward to.

王储的愿景中有一项重要内容，这份名为‘繁荣计划’的报告长达175页，我很荣幸能作为顾问之一，与许多其他非常有才华的伊朗人共同参与。

And one of the things the team the crown prince's vision, this is a 175 page report right here, prosperity project, and I'm blessed to be an adviser there with many other very talented Iranians.

这一计划正逐项推进，月复一月，旨在按照王储所描述的方式重建伊朗，以便在自由伊朗出现时，能经历一个四个月的过程举行全民公投，再用六个月时间召集伊朗人起草宪法，然后

And this piece by piece, month by month, has a sequence of of plans to rebuild Iran as the crown prince was talking about so that when there is a free Iran, there'll be a a four month process to get to a a referendum and then a six month process to assemble Iranians to to write a constitution, and

然后

then

再用十四个月时间最终确定宪法，并就宪法内容进行投票。

a fourteen month process to actually finalize the the the constitution and then have a vote on the constitution.