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约翰·费特曼，感谢您做客《All In》播客，参加这次深度访谈。
John Fetterman, thank you for joining us here on the All In podcast for this All In interview.
今天非常高兴您能来到这里。
Very excited to have you here today.
我知道您今天正在投票。
I know you're in the middle of voting today.
听起来《SAVE America法案》可能即将在议院开始辩论。
Sounds like the SAVE America Act might be starting its debate on the floor.
是这样吗？
Is that correct?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我最近听说他们没有足够的票数，但我们会拭目以待。
I think what what I've heard recently that they don't have the votes, but we will find.
但我并没有什么特别的内幕信息。
But I I don't have any special insight.
我的意思是，结果会非常接近。
I mean, it's it's gonna be very close.
我不认为即使他们通过了，也不会超过51票，但我也不太确定。
I don't think it if they do hit it, I don't see it more beyond 51, but I I'm not I'm not really sure.
很遗憾，他们没有把重点放在单纯的选民身份验证上。
It's a shame that they didn't make it more about just ID to vote.
他们把这件事变成了其他东西。
They they turned it into other things.
所以他们把它搞成了一个圣诞树，挂上了所有这些无关的东西。
So they turned it into kind of a Christmas tree, and they're hanging all these things on it.
但现在我们只能这样了，我们会知道结果的。
But now that's that's where we are, but we'll know.
而且有人会跟进这件事，他会告诉我，事实上，因为我真的很想知道结果会怎样。
And having someone follow that too, I just he's gonna let me know, in fact, because I'm really interested to see how it goes.
因为如果他们真的这么做了，那就会变成一场关于‘冗长辩论’究竟是怎么回事的大戏。
Because if they do, then that's gonna turn into a really spectacle about what a talking filibuster is.
是的。
Yeah.
好吧，我们看看会发生什么。
Well, let's see what happens.
我的意思是，接下来的一周将会非常戏剧性。
I mean, it's a pretty dramatic week ahead.
让我先开始。
Let me just start.
我想稍微宏观一点，谈谈你是如何做出政策决策的。
I I wanna zoom out a little bit and talk about how you make policy decisions.
我想先从政党说起。
And I wanna just start with party.
你在2016年以进步派身份参选，失败了。
You ran as a progressive in 2016, lost.
你在2022年击败了奥兹医生，如今却获得了72%的宾夕法尼亚州共和党人支持，而民主党人只有22%。
You beat doctor Oz in '22, and now you have a 72% approval rating from Pennsylvania Republicans and only 22% from Democrats.
你是共和党人还是民主党人，参议员？
Are you a Republican or are you a Democrat, senator?
你如何看待自己的政党归属呢？
And kinda what's the way that you think about your party affiliation?
嗯，实际上，我认为更现实的数据是今天早上早些时候的民调，那时我和他们的支持率基本持平。
Well, I actually, I I think the the more realistic the the realistic numbers was, like, earlier in the morning console, and that had me at basically fifty fifty with them.
我在共和党人中的支持率在六成左右。
I was I was in the the sixties for with Republicans.
毫无疑问，我更受共和党人的欢迎，对此我感到非常困惑。
Without a doubt without a doubt that that I am more popular with with Republicans, and I I'm mystified by that.
我的意思是，能获得任何宾夕法尼亚人的支持我都深感荣幸，但我要说的是，我会坚持自己认为的道德清晰性。
I mean, I'm honored to to have support from any Pennsylvanian, but what I will say that, you know, I'm just going to follow what I think is the moral clarity.
早在2015年我第一次参选时，也就是十多年前，当时所谓的进步派和现在进步派所变成的样子已经完全不同了。
And now in my very first race back in 2015, over a decade ago, what used to be a progressive is definitely not what a progressive started to turn into and what it be became.
甚至在我2022年的竞选中，我就宣布我不再只是一个民主党人了。
And and even in my my race in 2122, I was announcing I am no longer I I'm just a Democrat.
我不是一个进步派。
I'm not a progressive.
现在，这种演变已经远离了那些原本并不具有争议的核心原则。
And now there's been that evolution away from, like, those core principles that really weren't weren't controversial.
而如今，因为我坚定地、毫不歉疚地支持以色列，我把自己孤立了起来。
And and now I've isolated myself by following and standing and proud to be unapologetically supporting Israel.
如果你看到了昨天发布的那项民调，显示民主党内的支持率持续下滑，我已在社交媒体上分享了它，并说：我不关注这些。
And now if you've seen that that poll came out yesterday that the standing in the Democratic Party continues to deteriorate, I've put that out on my social media, and I said, I don't follow.
我不在乎民调。
I don't care about the polls.
这里有一种道德上的清晰，我们其他人也应该以此为准则。
You know, there's a moral clarity here, and that should be where the rest of us should should be.
现在，我很容易就能坚定地站在这立场上，我也成为了唯一一位大力支持史诗级愤怒的民主党人。
And now it's been really easy for me to to lean in on it, and that I created the only Democrat that's very supportive about epic fury.
我也是唯一一位拒绝关闭国土安全部的民主党人。
And I'm also the only Democrat that refuses to shut down the Department of Homeland Security.
是的。
Yes.
作为民主党人，我们希望对移民与海关执法局进行一些改革，但我坚决不同意将其关闭。
As a Democrat, we would like to make some some reforms on ICE, But what I'm unwilling to do is shut it down.
在密歇根州那起可怕的袭击事件之后，他意图杀害150名幼儿，而现在这类事件越来越多。
And after that horrific that attack in Michigan where where he was looking to kill a 150 toddlers, you know, and now there's more and more kinds of these these events.
你为什么要投票支持关闭政府？
Why would you vote to shut our government down?
还有网络安全机构，你知道，这对中国和伊朗来说一定非常有利，因为我们关闭了这个政府机构。
And the cybersecurity agency, you know, that must be incredible for the Chinese and the Iranians that that we've shut that government down.
所以，我的核心价值观并没有改变。
So that's that you know, I my core values haven't changed.
如果有什么变了，那就是成为民主党人所必需的核心标准，我会坚持我认为正确的事，坚持国家利益高于党派利益，无论这是否符合历史的正确方向。
If anything's changed, that's been kind of the core what what's required to be a democrat, and I'm gonna follow what I think is true, what is the country over party, whether that's the right side of history.
你认为民主党过去代表什么？
What do you think the Democratic Party used to stand for?
今天它代表什么？你认为它应该代表什么？
What does it stand for today, and what do you think it should stand for?
说实话，我真的不知道。
I I honestly, I I I don't know.
但我要对你的听众说的是，去听听那些竞选参议员的民主党人怎么说。
But what I will say, as I would refer to to your listeners, is, like, listen to what the people that are running for the senate is Democrats.
看看他们在说什么、做什么。
Watch what they're saying and doing.
而他们正变得越来越反以色列，公开敌视以色列。
And that's becoming more and more anti Israel, openly hostile to to Israel.
现在，这成了衡量忠诚度的试金石：我不会接受他们的任何资金。
And now that becomes part of the litmus litmus purity test to I'm not gonna take any of their money.
我会谴责这种做法。
I'm gonna denounce that.
我是唯一一位认为内塔尼亚胡做得对的民主党人，他切断了真主党和哈马斯的联系，现在还攻击了胡塞武装。
And I was the only Democrat that's absolutely Netanyahu just done the right thing to to break the that access there with Hezbollah and Hamas and now attacking also Houthis as well.
所以，你是知道民主党代表什么吗？
So, I mean, so do you know where what Democrats stand for?
看看谁在竞选参议员。
See who's running for the senate.
现在来仔细看看他们的计划。
And now play it planner.
看吧。
Look.
那个有纳粹纹身的人，不仅公开宣称自己是共产主义者，还发表了大量对女性和性侵的极端冒犯言论，现在还把农村人称为愚蠢和种族主义者。
The the Nazi tattoo guy, you know, on top of being an avowed communist and now said incredibly offensive things about women and sexual assault and now refers to rural people as stupid and racist.
所以，这就是民主党想要的吗？
And I'll so and now is that what Democrats want?
或者我们拭目以待吧。
Or I guess we'll see that.
但你知道，你在密歇根州也能看到这些各种各样的事情。
But, you know, you see in all these different things also in Michigan too.
一个据我所知拒绝谴责哈马斯的人，他领导了那个，你知道的，不是那个，那个什么来着，没承诺。
A guy that really, as far I know, has refused to condemn Hamas, and he led the, you know, no the the no what was the no committed.
别管那个愚蠢的东西叫什么了，但就是那种，你知道的，不承诺、不承诺投票。
It's like forget what that that stupid thing was called, but it was like, you you know, no vote no vote for uncommitted.
不承诺。
Uncommitted.
是的。
Yeah.
不承诺。
Uncommitted.
对。
Yeah.
但你知道，我们不会投票给哈马斯或卡玛拉·哈里斯。
But, you know, we're not gonna vote for Hamath Kamala Harris.
而现在他们帮助特朗普赢得了密歇根州。
And and now they helped deliver Trump for Michigan.
所以你看现在谁在参选，谁在竞争。
So that's like, look who's running, and look who's being competitive.
所以你想知道民主党现在在哪吗？
So that that's you wanna know where Democrats are?
看看这些类型的选战。
Look in those kinds of races.
你知道，这很有趣。
You know, it's interesting.
我们过去还能在一些事情上达成共识，在其他事情上持不同意见。
We used to have the ability to agree on some things and disagree on other things.
但现在，无论对方做什么或说什么，你都必须持对立观点。
It seems nowadays, whatever the other side is doing or saying, you have to take the opposing view.
在许多情况下，这似乎迫使人们陷入一些荒谬、不合逻辑的立场。
And in many cases, it seems like that might force folks to kind of contort into these weird positions that don't even make logical sense.
我们怎么会走到这一步？
Why did we get to this point?
到底发生了什么，让一切都变得如此两极分化？
What happened that everything had to be polar?
我们曾经能够对一些事情达成共识，同时对其他事情持不同意见，但现在这种能力已经不复存在了。
There was never the ability for us to there's no longer the ability for us to agree on some things while disagreeing on other things.
是什么导致了这个国家的这种变化？我们还能回到过去吗？
What caused this change in this country, and can we get back from it?
我不知道。
I I don't know.
我的政党的一部分变得如此僵化。
Like, part of my party's become so inflexible.
我发现，你不能公开、无悔地支持以色列，但这却没问题。
What what I've discovered that, you know, you are not allowed to be a proud, unapologetic standing, with Israel, but it's it's okay.
如果你胸口纹着纳粹的纹身，这反而不是什么大问题。
It's not a big deal if you have a Nazi tattoo on your chest.
现在我的政党里有些人正试图将这种行为正常化，或者为它开脱。
And you have people in now in my party now who are trying to normalize that or to excuse that.
我的意思是，我们现在的处境就是这样。
I mean, like, it's that that's that's that's kinda where we are.
现在我知道作为民主党人，哪些观点是不能持异议的。
And and now I know what's toxic as a democrat to disagree with.
但对我来说，这些才是我们的核心价值观，比如以色列所秉持的那种价值观——我们一直坚持的原则是：绝不能让政府停摆。
But for me, those are, I think, our core values, you know, the kinds of values in Israel, kinds of the core value that we have always used to say, never ever shut our government down.
这总是错误的。
That's always wrong.
你是在惩罚工会成员。
You're gonna punish union members.
你是在惩罚普通的美国民众。
You're gonna punish, you know, everyday Americans.
但现在，我们却在做着同样的事情。
Now here, we're doing those same things.
现在我认为，比如我们的边境，应该加强边境安全，遣返所有罪犯。
And now I think our border, for example, I think secure our border, deport all the criminals.
但从未发生过像明尼阿波利斯那样的悲剧。
But now never ever have the kind of tragedies like we had in Minneapolis.
这并不是任何人真正投票支持或认同的。
That's not what anyone really voted for any of them supports.
所以，如果我比共和党人更受欢迎，我其实也不确定。
So, you know, if I'm more popular than Republicans, I don't really know.
但我确实尊重每一个人，也不会去称呼共和党人或MAGA支持者。
But but I also that I I treat everyone with respect, and I don't refer to Republicans or members of MAGA.
他们不是纳粹。
They're not Nazis.
他们不是法西斯。
They're not fascists.
他们并没有试图摧毁我们的国家。
They're not trying to destroy our country.
不是的。
No.
我知道，我有很多非常支持或投票给特朗普总统的人。
I know and I love many, many people that that voted for or support, president Trump.
我会尊重每一个人。
I'm gonna treat anybody with respect.
我不会攻击他们的家人。
I don't attack members of their families.
我不会使用那种类型的攻击。
I don't use and and those kinds of attacks.
我们必须找到一条更好的前进道路，这正是我一直坚持的。
We have to find a better way forward, and and that's what I've been maintaining.
你觉得今天谁在领导民主党？
Who do you think leads the Democratic Party today?
哦，我们没有一个明确的领导人。
Oh, we don't we don't have one.
我觉得，我觉得现在真正主导的是TDS。
I I think I think the the TDS, that I think that's the leader right now.
你知道，现在我们的政党由TDS主导，现在作为民主党人，只要你同意某件事是好的，或者认同对方的观点，就会遭到惩罚，这几乎变得不可能了。
You know, right now, our our party is is governed by the TDS, and now it's made it virtually impossible without being punished as a Democrat to agree something's good or I agree with the other side.
我会用‘极端愤怒’来定义这种状态。
And I I would define that by epic fury.
我是美国国会中唯一一个公开表示我认为推翻并摧毁伊朗政权是件好事的民主党人。
I am the literally the only Democrat in America, in Congress that I've come across that's saying, I think it's a great thing to break and destroy the Iranian regime.
我认为让他们承担责任是完全恰当的。
I think it's entirely appropriate to hold them accountable.
让我感到奇怪的是，每一个竞选总统的民主党人，以及我认识的国会里的每个人，都说我们绝不能允许他们获得核武器。
And what's strange to me that every single Democrat that's run for president, and anyone that I know in congress says we must never allow them to acquire a nuclear bomb.
当这种情况发生时，为什么不能庆祝或承认这一点呢？
When that happens, why not celebrate that and or acknowledge that?
我只看到过批评和这类攻击。
I have only witnessed just criticism and these kinds of these kinds of attack.
是的，你不必在每一件事上都达成一致。
Like, yeah, you don't have to agree on every single thing.
但当一件好事发生时，仅仅因为它是来自另一个政党，这就告诉我，你选择的是迎合选民或政党的要求，而不是国家利益，或者我认为在这种情况下真正合适的做法。
But when a good thing happens just because it comes from, the different party, that that tells me that you're choosing the demand of the the base or the party over country or what what's really, I think, appropriate in that circumstances.
现在我想说的是，对于任何一个国家，你们消费石油吗？
Now I I would say now, you know, to any country any country, do you consume oil?
是的。
Yes.
当然，我们消费。
Of course, we do.
那么，这也就成了你们的问题。
Well, then that makes it your problem too.
这也使你们负有责任。
That makes you part of your responsibility.
我不明白为什么。
I don't know why.
你知道吗？
You know?
以色列和我们的国家承担了主要工作，抱歉。
Like, Israel and and our nation did the heavy leaving excuse me.
完成了摧毁伊朗军事体系的繁重任务。
The the heavy the heavy work to to to destroy the Iranian military apparatus.
你知道吗？
You know?
那为什么你们不帮我们重新开放海峡呢？
Now why not wouldn't you not, you know, help us to reopen the straits?
因为你们消耗石油。
Because you consume oil.
你们明明有能力，为什么不能参与进来呢？
You all could be the ability to why not part participate that?
这让我觉得很奇怪。
That's that's strange to me.
所以我觉得，大家为什么不能站出来支持呢？
So I think everyone, why can't you get behind?
唯一没有参与的只有中国和俄罗斯。
The only ones that aren't are China and Russia.
这些国家在欧洲的情况也类似。
Those are the same kinds of especially in Europe.
你知道他们对乌克兰做了四年多的事，而我们都知道中国的目标是什么。
You know what they're doing to Ukraine for over four years, and we all know what the goals of China is.
所以要说这不是我们的战争，那就像是，是的。
So to say it's not our war, it's like, yeah.
但这是我们的事业。
Well, it's our cause.
如果你消耗石油，而你们所有人都在消耗，这实际上使我们都承担了这份责任。
And if you consume oil and you all do, you know, that effectively makes us all part of this responsibility.
没错。
Right.
你认为目前美国有没有一条明确的出路可以摆脱伊朗的局势？
Do you think there's a clear path to getting out of Iran for The United States at this stage?
你如何看待这次撤离的发生？
How do you view this exit happening?
似乎总统在某种程度上宣布了胜利，但另一方面，这里仍在持续进行活动并向前推进。
It seems like the president, to some degree, is declaring victory, but on the other hand, there seems to be continued activity and and push forward here.
我们的撤离路径是什么？
What's our exit path?
我真的不知道。
I I don't I don't know.
但我要说的是，确实已经发生了的事情。
But what I will say, what's undeniably been happened.
首先，为什么所有媒体都不要求阿亚图拉提供生还证明？
Now first, why aren't all of the media outlets demanding proof of life for from the Ayatollah?
自从上个月的第一次袭击以来，他们一直沉默无声。
You know, ever since that first strike back in last month, not a peep not a peep out of them.
我的意思是，伊朗人就像在玩《周末狂欢》一样。
I mean, the the Iranians are doing kinda like weekend at Italia's.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
他们只是在假装这个人还能正常运作。
Like, they're just trying to pretend this guy is functional in any in any way.
就在今天，你知道，他们刚刚清除了实际上的领导人。
And now just today today, you know, they just they just eliminated, you know, who was effectively the the de facto leader.
我觉得这太棒了。
You know, I think that's fantastic.
继续这么做吧。
Keep doing it for that.
毫无疑问，他们现在除了向平民发射无人机外，已没有任何其他能力。
So and without a doubt, they have no capabilities at this point otherwise than to to fire off a a drone at civilians at civilians.
伊朗人从来都只是攻击平民。
The Iranians have never done anything other than just attacking civilians.
绝对没错。
Abs absolutely.
这是事实。
That's a fact.
你知道，他们无法进行传统的战斗。
You know, they can't engage in traditional kinds of of combat.
所以这些懦夫，他们只会发射无人机制造混乱。
So those cowards, what they do is fire drones to create chaos.
你知道，他们实际上已经被废掉了，这是一件好事。
You know, they've been effectively neutered, and that's a wonderful thing.
这也有效地瓦解了他们的代理人，使世界无疑更加安全。
And that's also effectively broken the the proxies, and that's also made the world undeniably more secure.
而且这并不是说——我的意思是，这场战争才刚刚开始三周。
So and this is not this is not an I mean, this war is only three weeks into it.
不管你怎么称呼它，不管怎么讲，现在才三周而已。
This whatever you wanna call it, whatever the semantics, it's three weeks.
这不像乌克兰的战争。
This is not like a Ukraine in war.
你知道吗？
You know?
这才三周。
This is three weeks.
这并不是说，你知道的，能干净利落地、迅速地彻底摧毁伊朗的整个体系。
It it's not, you know, neat, and it's not absolutely quick to to just dismantle the entire Iranian apparatus for the thing.
追究他们的责任是完全恰当的，过去四十年来的每一位总统都曾想对伊朗采取些行动。
Holding them accountable is entirely appropriate, and every single president since the last forty some years wanted to do something about Iran.
终于，这件事发生了。
Finally, that's happened.
这是件好事。
It's a good thing.
而现在
And now
关于你提到的海峡问题，以及美国寻求协助支持海峡商业石油运输，北约盟国大多表示拒绝。
To your point about the Strait and, America looking for assistance to support the activities, the the commercial oil activities through the Strait, NATO allies have largely said no.
你认为我们正面临北约联盟的终结吗？
Do you think that we're looking at the end of the NATO alliance?
这对美国在西方的领导力以及这个曾建立全球力量平衡的联盟的未来意味着什么？
What does this speak to for the future of both America's leadership with the in the West and this alliance that has kind of created a great power center that's created balance in the world.
我的意思是，北约有风险吗？
I mean, is NATO at risk?
我为自己是美国人感到自豪，我相信，我们是世界上一股积极的力量。
I'm proud to be an American, and and I believe, you know, we are a force of good in the world.
我真的不明白，为什么他们不愿意加入我们，一起重新开放海峡。
And I don't truly don't understand why they don't wanna join us to to reopen the straits.
但如果你消费石油，这就成了你的问题，你也负有责任加入我们。
But if you consume oil, that makes it part of your your problem, and that makes you part of your responsibility to join us.
到目前为止，我们已经完成了艰难的工作。
So we've done the hard work at this point.
10月7日的恐怖事件，以色列人也承受了。
And the horror of 10 seven was born by the Israelis too.
现在他们采取了正确的行动，摧毁了这些代理势力，并让他们完全承担责任。
Now they've done the appropriate thing to to destroy the proxies and to hold them fully accountable.
那为什么世界不能就此团结起来，仅仅做这件事呢？
And now why the world can't rally around this to just do that.
但我相信，无论有没有他们的帮助，我们都会成功。
Now I do believe we will be successful with or without their help.
但请提醒人们，这已经过去三周了。
But remind people that's been three weeks.
对于一个拥有九千万人口、曾经是整个地区令人畏惧的军事强权的国家来说，如今已被彻底击垮，变得无关紧要，除了偶尔发射一架无人机制造混乱之外。
And now for a nation that's 90,000,000 that used to be this fearsome force of military in the entire region, just been pulverized into irrelevance other than just creating kinds of chaos firing a drone there.
现在他们甚至无法以有尊严的方式作战。
And now they can't they can't even in fight with with honor.
你知道，他们攻击平民。
You know, they they attack civilians.
他们屠杀了自己人，你知道的，会有更多起义，因为他们害怕，因为有目击者。
They've massacred their own you know, there there would be more uprising because they're terrified because they've had the witnesses.
上一次他们杀死了多达三万五千人。
They've killed up to 35,000 of them last time.
所以他们已经被追究责任了。
So they've been held accountable.
作为美国人，我们要求他们承担责任，这是好事。
We're as an American, hold them accountable, and that's a good thing.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为很多人再次问的问题是，成功是什么样子？
I think the question a lot of people are asking again is what does success look like?
它如何被定义？
What's it defined as?
我们如何摆脱这场危机，什么时候可以抽身离开？
How do we get out of this, and when do we walk away?
这种不确定性，我认为正是让很多人说，我不确定这是否会演变成另一场伊拉克战争或阿富汗那样的局势。
And that uncertainty, I think, is what has a lot of folks saying, I I don't know if this is gonna become another Iraq war or Afghanistan type situation.
这使得人们变得谨慎。
That's what makes folks considerate.
这简直荒谬至极。
Abs absolutely absurd.
这根本不是什么国家建设。
This is not a nation building thing.
这是在摧毁一个恶劣的政权。
This is destroying a terrible regime.
解除武装。
Disarmament.
解除武装。
Disarmament.
你知道的？
You know?
比如，如果你住在欧洲，想想看，如果你在纳粹德国真正开始扩张之前就让它解除武装，会怎么样。
Like, if you live in Europe, remember what you and, you know, like, if you would have disarmed the the German Nazi regime before it it really started.
我的意思是，你忘记历史的教训了吗？
I mean, like, have you forgot the lessons of history?
当一个政权决心摧毁该地区国家时，为什么不能让它承担责任呢？
When you have a regime that is committed to destroying, you know, the nations in the region and now, like, why is it wrong to hold them accountable?
而现在
And now
我，我的批评者们
I I critics critics
批评者们攻击说，这花了我们十亿美元。
critics are attacking, well, it costs us a billion dollars.
但你知道，不阻止伊朗造成的人员伤亡和经济影响将会昂贵得多。
It's like, well, you know, not stopping Iran would be a hell of a lot more expensive in lives and economic impact.
所以这就是关键所在。
So that's that's the thing.
你知道的。
You know?
显然，如果你稍微考虑一下历史上解除危险极权政权武装的教训，他们会那样做吗？
Clearly, if you even consider of the lessons from history of disarming a dangerous toxic regime the way they've done that?
为什么你不能开放地真正参与进来？至少承认一下，世界因此变得更安全了？
Why can't you be open to really participate, but at least not just acknowledge that the world's made safer as a result?
来自两党的许多批评者认为，美国前总统特朗普可能受到了内塔尼亚胡和美国以色列游说团体的不当影响。
There's a lot of criticism from both sides of the aisle that perhaps The United States, president Trump were unduly influenced by, Netanyahu and by the Israeli lobbyists in The United States.
你知道，也许你可以回应一下这一点。
You know, maybe you can address that point.
你接受过AIPAC的捐款，我知道这一点之前就被提过。
You've taken money from AIPAC, and I know that you've kind of been, that's been brought up before.
但你怎么回应很多人提出的观点，即以色列对我们的政治和全球行动施加了过度影响？
But how do you react to the argument that many are making that Israel has undue influence on our politics and our, our kind of global actions?
这其实是在助长反犹主义和刻板印象，仿佛他们操控着一切、躲在幕后。
Well, that that that plays into the to the antisemitism and the tropes, and it's like pulling all the strings and they're behind.
这只是成长的一部分。
It's just that's just part of the growth.
作为民主党人，说这些话正变得越来越被接受。
It's become more and more acceptable as a Democrat to say these things.
你知道吗？
You know?
就像塔克·卡尔森、富恩特斯这些人，你知道，没人认领他们。
And it's like like, Tucker Carlson and and Fuentes and these these people, you know, like, no one claims them.
没人认领他们。
No one claims them.
你知道吗？
You know?
我向你保证，至少我不坐那儿琢磨那些人对以色列或任何相关事情的立场和观点。
I promise you, no one at least I sit around wondering what those are the kind of vigils and their opinions on Israel or anything at that point.
我党内的某些部分也是如此。
Same parts of my party as well too.
如果你想要把纳粹纹身正常化，觉得这只是个例，没什么大不了的。
Now if you if you wanna normalize that a Nazi tattoo is kinda like a one off, it's no not a big deal.
或者如果你认为以色列实施了种族灭绝，那你对什么是种族灭绝的理解简直太无知了——实际情况恰恰相反。
Or if you think Israel engaged in a genocide, you know, that how ignorant that is to the actually, what defines a genocide is is, the exact opposite.
他们打的是正义之战，我记得战争是怎么开始的，也记得哈马斯持续做了些什么。
They were in a just war, you know, and I remember where it started and remember what Hamas continued to do.
让所有人都回家，这场冲突就结束了。
Send everybody home, and there they would be the end of this.
所以，这就是其中一部分，反犹主义在我们的大学校园里，乃至全世界，都已经失控了。
So so that's that's part of this, and how how antisemitism out of control out of control, you know, on our college campuses and as well in in the world.
甚至在圣何塞，一个犹太人只是在吃晚饭时就被殴打了。
Even in San San Jose, you know, a a Jew was beaten just having dinner.
你知道吗？有人开车撞进犹太教堂，就像树之生命教堂那样。
You know, you have people driving crashing into synagogue, kinda like tree of life.
但幸运的是，他立刻被安保人员击毙了。
But, thankfully, he was immediately killed by the security.
他们有安保人员，因为他们必须提供这些安保，因为他们知道那里始终存在这种持续的风险。
They had security because they had to provide those because they knew that's always an ever present kinds of risk there.
谢天谢地。
Thank god.
谢天谢地，如果没有他们，事情可能会发展到什么地步。
Thank god what that could have made possible without them.
所以，我们现在就处在这个境地。
So that's that's where we are.
我不听任何一方的言论，无论是我所属的政党还是极右翼。
And I don't listen to parts of whether it's my party or the extreme and the right.
你知道，我从不向塔克·卡尔森这样的人寻求智慧或对这类事情的看法，老实说。
You know, I never turn to someone like Tucker Carlson for wisdom or their views on on this or anything, you know, honestly.
那么，让我们谈谈另一个有争议的话题，我们在节目一开始时短暂提到过，那就是《SAVE法案》。
Well, so let's talk about another controversial topic, which we just hit on for a moment at the start of the show, which is the SAVE Act.
83%的美国人支持在选举中实行选民身份验证。
83% of Americans support voter ID for elections.
参议院计划本周审议SAVE法案，据说或有可能。
The senate scheduled to take up the SAVE Act supposedly or potentially this week.
你曾表示不支持当前形式的SAVE法案。
You've said you don't support the SAVE Act in its current form.
你认为需要做哪些修改？
What do you think needs to be changed?
你总体上同意在选举中使用选民身份证明吗？
Do you generally agree with the idea of using voter ID for elections?
共和党从未进行过任何 outreach 或沟通。
Well, the Republicans have never had any outreach or to engage.
你知道，他们从未说过，嘿。
You know, they never said, hey.
我们能不能重新修改一下？
Well, can we rework it?
或者，你能提供些什么？
Or, you know, what can we we offer?
你知道的。
You know?
我会把它做成真正的身份证。
And I'll make it, you know, real ID.
用真正的身份证来投票。
Real real ID to vote.
简单点。
Keep it simple.
你知道的。
You know?
所以，是的。
So, like yeah.
为什么不呢？
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Why not?
你知道的？
You know?
就像，我并不反对投票时提供身份证件。
Like, it's like that that that would I I am not outraged by providing ID to vote.
71%的民主党人对此表示认可。
71% of Democrats are okay with that.
83%的美国人对此表示认可。
83 of Americans are okay with it.
那就这样吧，你知道的，我真的很想就这个话题进行讨论。
Make it that, then, yeah, you know, I'm I'm interested to really to have that conversation.
他们一直在做的另一件事是抹黑邮寄投票。
Another thing that they continue to do, they try to smear voting voting by mail.
这绝对安全。
That's absolutely safe.
美国的红州，比如佛罗里达、俄亥俄和其他州，都依赖这种方式。
And the red states in America like Florida, Ohio, and others, they rely on it.
一个州越乡村化，他们就越依赖这种方式。
The more rural a state is, the they really use that too.
所以他们把这一切搞成了一个挂满各种小众和其他议题的圣诞树。
So they've made it this Christmas tree of hanging all these these kinds of boutique and other issues.
现在，如果你是认真的，比如说，嘿。
Now if you are serious and like, hey.
关于投票需要身份证，你知道，你可能会吸引一些真正的民主党人支持。
ID to vote, You know, you might bring some actual Democrats on that.
我不像有些人那样，用极端言论说这是吉姆·克劳法。
I'm not you know, I refuse the kind of extreme rhetoric about it's not Jim Crow.
这并不是在试图阻止美国人投票。
It is not trying to suppress Americans from voting.
这是为了让投票更安全，并进行一场认真的对话。
It's making it perhaps more secure and have a serious conversation.
所以，你知道，我说我无法支持它目前的形式。
And that's why, you know, said I'm unwilling to support it in its current current form.
你认为发生过选举舞弊吗？程度如何？
And do you think there has been election fraud and to what extent?
我的经验是，作为副州长，在2020年，很多人声称存在舞弊，但我要提醒大家，宾夕法尼亚州67个县中有57个是深红地区。
Well, I mean, in my experience as lieutenant governor, in 2020, there was a lot of allegation that there was that and not one single remind people, roughly 57 out of Pennsylvania, 67 counties are are deep, deep red.
一个都没有，根本没有舞弊。
Not one single one, there was no fraud.
根本没有舞弊。
There was no fraud.
现在我们查明了，我认为是六到七个案例。
And now they we identified, I think, believe it was six, six or seven.
事实上，巧合的是，这些人都投票给了特朗普总统，而且他们大多是用已故亲属的身份试图投票，结果被抓住了。
In fact and now coincidentally, they all happen to be Republicans that were voting for president Trump, and mostly they used a dead relative to try to to to vote that, and they were caught.
所以，在宾夕法尼亚州，选民舞弊是绝对不存在的。
So voter fraud, you know, in Pennsylvania, it is absolutely secure.
实际上，我亲眼见证过这一点。
I can actually, you know, I've witnessed that.
现在在宾夕法尼亚州，共和党人推动了邮寄投票的进程。
And now in Pennsylvania, the Republicans drove that train of of voting by mail.
那是他们的要求。
That was their ID.
那是他们所坚持的。
That was what they demanded.
作为交换，我们取消了单一政党投票，不再只需按一个按钮就能投完整个票单。
And in return, we dropped the straight party voting by just push a button to vote straight down the entire ticket ticket voting.
但现在他们不得不改变立场，因为当时总统认为这是件糟糕的事。
And now they had to turn their views because at that time, the president decided that that's a terrible thing.
我的意思是，有两件事必须同时成立。
So, I mean, you know, two things must be true.
要求出示身份证投票并不离谱，但邮寄投票是一种光荣、安全且可靠的方式，全美各地的共和党人一直在这样投票，而且有些方式甚至最为安全。
It's not outrageous to show ID to vote, but voting by mail is an honorable, safe, and secure way that Republicans across our nation have been doing it and doing it some in the most secure ways as examples.
你认为有非公民投票的情况吗？
Do you think there's noncitizen voting going on?
有人提出的一个论点是，民主党开放了边境，引入了大量非公民，并以某种方式让他们获得投票权，比如邮寄选票时无需提供公民身份证明之类的，这在多个蓝州极大地增加了民主党的选票。
One of the arguments that's made is that the Democrats opened the border, brought in a lot of noncitizens, gave them access to vote in some way, either mailing ballots without showing proof of citizenship or whatnot, and that really boosted democrat votes across blue states.
这公平吗，还是毫无根据，只是
Is that fair or is that unfounded and just
这是一个非常好的观点。
That's that's that's a great that's a great point.
我确实对这一点感到担忧。
And I am concerned about that.
你知道的。
You know?
嘿。
Hey.
有问题吗？
Is there an issue?
所以我刚刚查了这个。
So I just ran this.
这就是遗产，所发现的遗产
That is the heritage the heritage found
是的
Yeah.
遗产基金会
Heritage Foundation.
基金会
Foundation.
你知道吗？他们表示，在1999年至2023年的数据库中，他们发现了77起非公民投票的案例。
You know, they said that at their database between 1999 to 2023, they identified 77 instances of noncitizens voting between 1999 and 2023.
这就是遗产基金会。
That's the Heritage Foundation.
你知道，就是那个，你知道的，就在那儿。
You know, that's the you know, there.
所以对我来说，这表明 Heritage 基金会并没有声称有超过77起这样的案例。
So so for me, that that would identify that it doesn't seem that, you know, the the Heritage Heritage Foundation doesn't claim that 70 that there's more than 77.
所以这就是为什么我说，如果你真的认真对待这件事，想要实现它，那就应该聚焦在身份证上，而不是牵扯其他各种会削弱核心目标的因素，比如展示身份证或提升安全性。
So that's why I'm saying if you're really serious and you wanna have that, let's make it about ID, not all these other kinds of parts that this that it dilutes the core mission of, like, showing ID or making it more secure.
那么，为什么民主党人不仅反对这项法案，而且普遍反对投票时出示身份证的做法？
So why have Democrats been so opposed not just to this act, but generally to the idea of showing ID for voting?
许多民主党政治人物在媒体中的访谈和论点都提到，不是每个人都能轻易获得身份证。
Many of the interviews and arguments that have been made by Democrat politicians in media have brought in ideas that, well, not everyone has access to an idea.
我不是那种民主党人，我不认同他们所说的那种说法有多糟糕。
I am not one of those Democrat I am not one of those Democrats that they say that that's terrible.
那是邪恶的。
That's evil.
他们为什么这么说？
Why are they saying that?
因为如果这是一项如此显而易见、符合常识的举措，83%的选民都支持，为什么党内还有这么多人反对？
Because if it's such a an obvious common sense action, 83% of voters support it, Why are so many in the party?
而这里很多人就产生了阴谋论，认为他们是在利用这个手段来收割选票等等。
And this is where a lot of people have conspiracy theories that they're using it to harvest votes and and so on.
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他们为什么反对？
Why are they opposing it?
到底发生了什么？
What is actually going on?
我无法代表他们说话，但我要说的是，我拒绝这样做。
I I I I I can't speak for them, but what I'm saying is, like, I refuse to.
我永远不会告诉83%的美国人，投票时出示身份证是糟糕和可怕的。
I'll never tell 83% of Americans that it's awful and terrible to show ID to vote.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道吗？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
而且我一再公开表达过这一点。
And and I'm I've said that publicly again and again and again.
71%的民主党人对此没有意见。
71% of Democrats have no problem with it.
你想知道是什么真正支持了这一点吗？
And you wanna know what really backed that up?
威斯康星州。
Wisconsin.
2025年4月，他们就投票时出示身份证的提案进行了公投。
In April 2025, they had a ballot initiative to show ID to vote.
该提案以接近二比一的比例通过了。
That passed nearly two to one.
在同一场选举中，他们还选出了一位如今最高法院中最自由派的法官。
They also elected one of the most liberal members of now the Supreme Court in that same election.
对绝大多数美国人来说，这并不具有争议性。
It's not controversial to vast majority of Americans.
我永远不会去告诉百分之八十的美国人，你们是吉姆·克劳分子，或是在试图压制选票。
I'm never gonna be in the business to tell 80 some percent of Americans that you're you're Jim Crow or you're trying to suppress votes.
说得通。
Fair enough.
那我们回到你之前提到的国土安全部的问题。
Well, let's come back to the DHS point you made earlier.
你是唯一一位投票支持资助国土安全部的民主党人，但你确实说过明尼苏达州的特工失控了。
You were one of the, you were the only Democrat actually to vote to to fund DHS, but you did say that agents in Minnesota lost the plot.
你在移民执法上的底线是什么？
What's your red line on immigration enforcement?
那么，移民与海关执法局应该做什么，不应该做什么？
So what should ICE be doing, and what should ICE not be doing?
永远不应该设底线。
There should never be a red line.
永远不要让政府停摆。
Never shut the government down.
就别这么做。
Just don't do that.
我们曾经是那个拒绝做这些事情的政党。
We used to be the party that refused to do those things.
当塔伯维尔阻挠一些军事晋升时，我们曾感到无比愤怒。
We were outraged outraged when Tuberville was jamming up some of the military, promotions.
大惊小怪。
Freak out.
大惊小怪。
Freak out.
你知道吗？
You know?
而现在，我们却让整个该死的政府停摆了。
And now here, we're we shut the whole damn government down.
去年我是仅有的两位反对这一做法的民主党人之一，现在我是唯一的一个。
I was one of only two Democrats to push back on that last year, and now I'm on the only one.
如果这对他们来说是错的，那对我们来说也应该是错的。
If it's wrong for them, then it should be wrong for us as as well too.
但让我们聚焦在移民与海关执法局上。
But just to focus on ICE.
我的意思是，移民与海关执法局在明尼苏达州的行动，你认为他们应该在哪些地方进行移民执法，如何执行，又有哪些行为是不该做的？
I mean, ICE's actions in Minnesota, where do you think ICE should be doing immigration enforcement and how versus what do you think they shouldn't have been doing?
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说，你知道，嘿。
I for me, you know, hey.
我曾是《莱克和莱利法案》的民主党主要推动者，因为那是一项重要的法案。
I was I was the Democratic lead on Lake and Riley bill because that was a serious bill.
你知道，凯蒂·布里特给我打了电话，说嘿。
They, you know, Katie Britt called me up and saying, hey.
你怎么看？
What do you think?
我说，是的。
And I'm like, yeah.
百分之百。
A 100%.
是的。
Yeah.
让我们一起努力推进这件事。
Let's let's work together on it.
这确实是一项严肃的努力。
That that's a serious that's a serious effort.
现在我主导了这项工作，而且有足够的民主党人支持终止辩论。
And now I led that and enough Democrats broke cloture on that.
这就是为什么它现在成为美国的一项法律。
That's why it's a law in America right now.
你知道，我希望我的民主党背景在边境安全方面的资历是顶尖的。
You know, I'd like to think that my credentials on border security as a Democrat is platinum.
你知道吗？
You know?
我甚至投票支持诺姆，她是少数几位我支持的民主党人之一。
And I even I voted for Noam, one of the few Democrats than her.
我与她会面，尊重她，并且拒绝使用像‘ICE芭比’这类性别歧视和粗俗的称呼。
I met with her, treated her with respect, and, you know, refused to use the kind of sexist and gross terms like ICE Barbie and those kinds of thing.
我拒绝这么做。
Refused to do that.
她完全失控了。
She absolutely lost the plot.
我要求她辞职。
I called for her to resign.
她变成了马约卡斯。
She became a Mayorkas.
作为一名民主党人，我明确指出马约卡斯是个灾难，毫无疑问。
I was a Democrat calling out that Mayorkas was a disaster, without a doubt.
你知道，这种情况不可持续，正在损害我们的国家，让任何移民根本不可能实现美国梦。
You know, we cannot this is unsustainable, and this is, damaging our nation and making it impossible to deliver an American dream for any migrants at that point.
你认为移民与海关执法局的职责应该是将这个国家的所有非法移民全部驱逐吗？
Do you think that ICE's mandate should be to remove every illegal immigrant from this country?
还是认为他们应该只针对某一类人群，而放过其他人，然后由立法来解决？
Or do you think that they should be going after just one group and leave others and we have to legislate?
移民与海关执法局应该如何正确运作？
What's the right way for ICE to operate?
不。
No.
你知道，绝大多数美国人支持我们守住边境。
You know, you have the vast majority of Americans secure our border.
他们毫无疑问已经做到了。
They've done that without a doubt.
并且驱逐所有罪犯。
And deport every criminal.
他们已经走了。
They're they're they're gone.
现在，你知道吗，宾夕法尼亚州的主要产业是农业。
And now, you know, Pennsylvania, that's our top industry is is farming agriculture.
而这个问题一直存在。
And constantly, that's their issue.
劳动力，劳动力，劳动力，这确实是个大问题。
Labor, labor, labor, it's it's really problematic.
你知道，针对那些合法的移民，我不认为这正是美国真正想要的。
You know, targeting otherwise lawful migrants, I don't think that's what America really wants.
而且，说实话，这也不是美国所需要的。
And, honestly, that's not what America needs.
你知道吗？
You know?
你知道，他们是我们经济中重要的一部分，我们需要找到更好的方式来解决这个问题。
You know, we they are an important part of our economy and finding a better way to address that.
我，我，嘿。
I'm I'm hey.
我来就是为了谈这个。
I'm here for that conversation.
我妻子是个梦想家。
My wife was a dreamer.
你知道，我真的很想和对方合作。
You know, I I would love to work with the other side.
你知道，我不该惩罚一个两岁时被带到这里、那时根本什么都不懂的孩子。
You know, I shouldn't punish a two year old that was brought here, had no idea, at that age.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以我认为他们为我们的国家做出了重要的贡献。
So I think they've made some, you know, important contributions to our nation.
我是个坚定的民主党人。
I'm a I'm a pro Democrat.
不好意思。
I'm excuse me.
我是一个支持移民的民主党人，但我是唯一一个曾以那种方式让政府停摆的民主党人。
I'm a pro immigration Democrat, but I'm the also the only Democrat that used to shut our government down the way that's where at.
而且，我正成为以色列最坚定的支持者，也是唯一一个认为推翻一个政权是好事的民主党人。
And and I'm becoming the only very proud supporter of Israel, and I'm the only Democrat that's saying destroying a regime, you know, that like, is a good thing.
所以
So
你认为这会制造一个不良的激励机制吗？也就是人们所说的‘生育锚’——移民来到美国生下孩子，然后留下来，而孩子自动获得公民身份？
Do you think that that creates a bad incentive with the what people call anchor babies, where an immigrant comes to The United States, has a baby, and then stays, and the baby has citizenship?
这似乎是目前争论的一个主要焦点。
That seems to be one of the the the kind of big debate points right now.
我的意思是，对我而言，我会说，如果你能守住边境，就能让这类事情变得更加困难或更不可能发生。
Well, I mean, for for for me, I I I what what what I will say is is like if you secure a border that makes those kinds of things more and more difficult or unlikely to to happen.
你知道，2023年的时候，你看到了那些数字。
Now I you know, back in 2023, you saw the numbers.
有30万人抵达边境。
300,000 people showing up at the border.
你知道，那是匹兹堡的那一边。
You know, that's the side of Pittsburgh.
我用宾夕法尼亚州的情况来描述过这一点。
I described that in terms of Pennsylvania.
匹兹堡的人口规模都涌到了边境，这根本不可持续。
The the size of Pittsburgh is showing up at the border, that's unsustainable.
你知道，我们得对此做点什么。
You know, we have to do something about it.
你知道吗？
You know?
马约卡斯必须下台。
Mayorkas had to go.
他一直是个累赘。
He's been a liability.
这就是为什么我提到诺姆，还叫她走人。
That's why I described Noam, and I called her to to go.
拜登总统为什么开放边境？
What was why did why did president Biden open the border?
他的动机是什么？
What was the motivation?
你从民主党领导层那里听到了什么？
What have you heard from Democratic leadership?
我告诉你，当他们废除第42条时，我真的很震惊。
I'll tell you that that the truth is I was shocked when when they dropped article 42.
你知道吗？
You know?
而且，我们当初竞选时都以此为纲领。
And my primary, it's like, we all ran on that.
这本来不是有争议的问题。
That wasn't controversial.
当他们废除这项政策时，我感到非常震惊，之后你就能明显看到情况的变化。
I was stunned when they dropped that, and you could see this, you know, right up after that.
是为了降低劳动力成本，还是为了拉拢民主党选民？
Was it to reduce labor cost or to bring in Democratic voters?
或者你认为，政党的动机是什么？
Or what was the motivation, do you think, from the party?
你一定和党内领导沟通过，他们告诉你为什么当时这么做是正当的。
And you must speak to party leadership that tells you why they're justified or were justified for doing that when they did it.
我不确定。
I Not sure.
我不知道，但我感到震惊，而且我坦诚相告。
I don't know, but I was I was alarmed, and I was honest.
对你来说，作为任何一位政治家，如果你当着选民的面说他们疯了或不正确，你就输了。
It's like, you know, for me, like, for any politician, if you were telling the people their eyes that you're crazy or not right, you lose.
你知道吗？
You know?
而且我们受到了惩罚。
And we were punished.
我们在24岁时受到了惩罚。
We were punished at 24.
作为民主党人，边境问题是一次严重而严重的失败。
The border was a serious, serious failure as as Democrats.
所以这就像让我们承担责任，而现在，从这种情况中吸取教训也是我们的责任。
So it's like holding us accountable, and now that's part of responsibility to learn from from that situation.
我现在希望，我真的希望我们的共和党人能从明尼阿波利斯的事件中吸取教训，这无助于任何人。
Now and I do hope and I do hope that our Republicans learn from Minneapolis doesn't help anybody.
这并不会，你知道，不会对你的事业有帮助。
That that doesn't, you know, it doesn't help your cause.
你知道吗？
You know?
然后那些人确实如此。
And it and then people that absolutely Yeah.
无论是在形象上，还是在策略上，任何这类做法，你都无法赢得任何人支持。
The optics, whether that's the optics or the kinds of tactics, any of that, you're not winning anybody over.
对。
Right.
所以我想换个话题，谈谈我最关心的主题——美国政府的财政状况。
So I wanna switch gears to my favorite topic, which is the the fiscal condition of the United States government.
我们有40万亿美元的债务，今年还将出现2万亿美元的赤字。
We have $40,000,000,000,000 of debt, and we're gonna have a $2,000,000,000,000 deficit this year.
其中一万亿仅仅是现有债务的利息。
A trillion dollars of that is just interest on the existing debt.
这个数字每年都在变得越来越大。
That number is getting bigger and bigger every year.
许多项目即将耗尽资金，包括社会保障，预计将在未来五到十年间耗尽资金。
And a bunch of programs are gonna run out of money, including social security which is projected to run out of money sometime between, call it five and ten years from now.
这是一个典型的债务螺旋问题。
This is a classic debt debt spiral problem.
你知道，国会对此问题关注多少？
You know, what is how much does congress pay attention to this problem?
这个问题有人讨论吗？
Is it something that's talked about?
因为很多对话似乎都集中在民调上，以便人们能在下一轮选举中再次当选，而不是关注我们面临的巨大债务问题以及如何解决它？
Because a lot of the conversations seem to be about what the polls say so that people can get elected again the next cycle versus looking at this big looming debt problem we're facing and how we're going to address it?
是的。
Yeah.
债务问题是我非常关心的。
Debt debt's a huge concern for me.
我的意思是，我年纪够大，还记得当年十亿美元意味着什么，那是一笔巨款。
I mean, you know, I'm I'm old enough to remember when a billion dollars meant something or that was a lot of money.
但现在万亿级别已经变得司空见惯，这不仅仅是社会保障的问题。
And now the trillions are becoming more kinds of and it's not kind of like social security.
以社会保障为例，现在只需要对精算方面的细节做一些微小调整。
Social security, for example, now they just need to make some small, small adjustments for actual on the actuarial kinds of things.
这样就能把它的可持续性延长到二十二世纪七十年代甚至更久。
And that could extend it well into the twenty to twenty seventies to the February.
只是一些小小的调整。
Just small small kinds of things.
这需要真正的领导力，需要他们放下党派之争，停止互相攻击，为所有美国人找到真正的解决方案。
That would require real leadership, and that would require them to just put down the partisan guns and just stop attacking each other and find a real solution for all of Americans.
除非双方都达成一致，否则你永远无法解决债务问题。
And now you'll never address debt until you both sides agree.
我们要停止互相撕裂。
We're gonna stop tearing each other apart.
我们要找到一条前进的道路。
We're gonna find a way forward.
我希望，更多的美国人认同我的观点，不要把这变成一场职业摔跤，而是真正想找到更好的前进方式？
Know, I hope I hope more Americans want my views of why just turn it into just professional wrestling, or do you really wanna find a better way forward?
这就像，如果你把华盛顿特区变成《杰里·斯普林格秀》那样，你之前问我，现在的民主党领袖是谁。
And and it's like, effectively, if you turn Washington DC as the Jerry Springer show, you know, you asked me earlier what's the leader of the Democratic Party right now.
我会说，是TDS。
I would say it's TDS.
这正是推动对话的原因。
That that is that's driving the conversation.
如果他支持，你知道的，比如冰淇淋和懒人圣代，现在民主党人突然就会讨厌它。
If he supports you know, he could come out for ice cream and lazy sundaes, and now suddenly Democrats would hate it.
我们会想投票反对它。
We would wanna vote it down.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
此外，目前还有很多关于政府欺诈的讨论。
Well, there's there's also a lot of discussion right now about fraud in the government.
我不知道你有没有看过明尼苏达州和加利福尼亚州的尼克·谢里尔拍的那些视频。
I don't know if you've seen these videos out of Minnesota and this guy, Nick Shirley, doing them out of California.
是的。
Yeah.
让我来说一下。
Let me let me say that.
让我这么说。
Let me say that.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我是完全同意的。
Like, I absolutely.
为什么你不能庆祝任何记者或任何活动家这么做呢？
Like, why can't you celebrate any journalist or any, you know, activist doing that?
还有，你知道吗，纽森州长发布了一段令人反感的视频，暗示他是恋童癖之类的人。
And what, you you know, governor Newsom put out a disgusting video implying that he's, you know, a pedophile or he's that that.
为什么呢？
Like, why?
我的意思是，这简直是一种污蔑。
You know, like, I mean, like, that's, kind of a smear.
你知道的吧？
You know?
你可以不同意，但用如此恶劣的方式暗示某人，这简直太离谱了。
Like, you can you may you wanna disagree or but but to imply that someone someone in one of the most gross kinds of terms like that, well, it's like, hey.
我们难道不应该达成共识吗？
Shouldn't we agree?
你知道的，把所有浪费都消除掉。
Like, you know, eliminate all the waste.
如果在我香水底下存在这种东西，那就把它清除掉。
If it exists under under my perfume, let's eliminate it.
我们直接叫出它的真面目吧。
Let's call that what it is.
你知道，我不会去指责某人，或暗示你是恋童癖，或者以那种恶心的方式针对孩子。
You know, I'm not going to call someone or imply that you're you're a pedophile or you're, you know, going after kids in the gross ways.
但让我和许多看过这些视频的人感到荒谬的是，看到民主党领袖们却说：我们没问题。
But what's crazy to me and so many other people that have seen these videos is to then see reactions from leaders in the Democratic Party saying, we don't have a problem.
这是种族主义。
This is racist.
这是各种各样的问题。
This is whatever.
并且否认这些报道的存在。
And and denouncing that the reports of this.
没错。
Exactly.
但当你看到这种欺诈行为时，会激怒所有人。
But when you see this fraud, it angers everyone.
你作为纳税人花钱，却把钱给了骗子。
You're spending money as a taxpayer, and then you're giving the money away to fraud sters.
这应该是。
It's it's It should.
应该是。
Should.
是的。
Yeah.
应该是。
It should.
应该是。
It should.
你该生气的。
You should be angry.
而且你知道，欺诈行为在双方都可能发生，但一旦被发现，我不在乎它发生在哪个民主党的州。
And, you know, like, fraud can happen on both sides, but when it's identified, I don't care if it's in a democratic state.
我们应该都承认，这里可能确实存在问题。
Like, we should all just acknowledge maybe there is a problem here.
这本身就是问题的一部分。
This is part of the thing.
如果你告诉选民你错了，或者嘿，
If you tell voters that you're wrong or, you know, hey.
这没什么大不了的。
It's no problem.
如果你说这里什么问题都没有，那你就输了。
There's nothing here, then you lose.
而现在，你却想把这一点变成关于边境的问题，你知道的，和民主党在2023年的分歧。
And now that you you wanna turn that into if you wanna turn that into, like, the border, you know, with Democrats is in 2023.
我们这么做，无异于自取其祸。
You know, we do that at our own peril.
约翰，你对这么多问题的批评都非常中肯。
You're you're so rightly critical of so many of these points, John.
你为什么还是民主党人？
Why are you still a democrat?
通过了。
It passed.
是的。
Yeah.
所以SAVE刚刚通过了。
And so SAVE just passed.
我的助手刚把它拿给我，51票，你开玩笑吧。
My staffer just handed it to me 51 Oh, you're kidding.
哇。
Wow.
他们真的推进了。
They they went forward.
对。
Yeah.
它正在推进。
It's going it's going forward.
辩论。
The debate.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
它将进入辩论阶段。
It goes to the debate.
是的。
Yeah.
那你认为那里会发生什么？
And so what do you think will happen there?
这会持续几天，还是一周？
Will this last a couple days, a week?
我的意思是，这个过程会怎么进行呢？
I mean, how's this process gonna go?
我真的不知道。
I I have no idea.
我不会假装知道接下来几天会是什么样子。
I I am not going to pretend to know exactly how the next couple days are gonna look.
我刚才问的问题是，你确实对民主党领导层采取的许多立场提出了批评。
The question I asked just before that was, you know, you're rightly critical of so many of these positions that the Democratic Party leadership takes.
那你为什么还是民主党人？
Why are you still a Democrat?
你有没有考虑过换党？
Have you thought about switching parties?
因为我就是民主党人。
Because I am a democrat.
而且这不是因为我改变了立场。
And it's not because I've changed.
这是因为，你知道，我所在政党的某些部分现在已经发生了变化。
It's because because, you know, parts of my party has changed right now.
而这就是我目前所处的位置。
And that's that's where where I'm at.
我将继续保持独立的声音。
I'm gonna continue to be an independent voice.
我会公正地判罚好球和坏球。
I'm gonna call balls and strikes.
我永远都会把国家利益放在高于我支持者群体或他们要求的位置上。
I'm always gonna pick country over part of my base or what they demand.
如今，在这个国家，尤其是在中期选举以及可能即将到来的2028年总统大选周期中，一个清晰浮现的主题是巨大的财富不平等。
One of the one one of the clear rising themes right now in this country going into the midterms and probably going into twenty eighth for the presidential election cycle is the massive wealth inequality in this country.
你认为我们存在巨大的财富不平等吗？如果是，你能指出其根源吗？
Do you think we have massive wealth inequality, and is it, you know can you identify the origin?
这种现象是从哪里来的？
Where is this coming from?
我真的不知道。
I I don't I don't really know.
但我并不讨厌亿万富翁。
But I I don't hate billionaires.
我不把他们当作问题所在。
I don't make them the problem.
现在，对于民主党来说，如果我们支持自己的事业，或者他们资助了我们关心的事情，我们就会喜欢亿万富翁。
And now that with Democrats, we love billionaires if we're supporting our we're supporting our causes or there's they're underwriting, you know, things that are near and dear to us.
事实上，我们还真有一位亿万富翁担任民主党州长。
In fact, we actually have a a billionaire as a Democratic governor.
你知道吗？
You know?
这并不意味着他就是寡头，想摧毁美国。
That doesn't mean he's an oligarch and trying to destroy America.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以，关键是尽量更诚实一些，停止互相攻击，找到我们现在能达成共识的地方。
So, like, it's about trying to be more honest and stop attacking each other and find what we can agree on now.
但我们生活在一个注意力经济的时代，人们只是说一些离谱的话，做出疯狂的声明。
But we live in the kinds of attention economy and just, you know, saying outlandish thing and making, you know, crazy statements.
你知道的？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
这能带来点击量，但这不是政府该做的事。
That drives the clicks, but that's not governments.
这并不是
That's not
现在加利福尼亚州的选票上有一个征收财富税的提案，对亿万富翁一次性征收5%的税，但该提案还赋予加州立法机构权力，可以降低门槛，每年征收，并调整税率。
Well, it's it's on the ballot now in California to pass a wealth tax, and it starts as a one time 5% tax for billionaires, but it gives the legislature in California the ability to lower the threshold and make it every year if they wanted to and change the percentage.
罗·坎纳和伯尼·桑德斯曾讨论过推行全国性的财富税。
Ro Khanna and Bernie Sanders have talked about passing a national wealth tax.
你觉得我们在2028年会陷入这样的讨论吗？届时会不会出台一项全国性的财富税，就像我们最初只对收入征收1%的税一样，最终每个人每年都要按其净资产的相当比例缴税，以支持政府服务？
You Do think we are gonna find ourselves in that conversation in 2028 and we're gonna have a national wealth tax where eventually just like we started with a one percent income tax, eventually everyone will pay a significant percentage of their net worth every year to support government services?
我的意思是，桑德斯参议员从未代表过超过一个非常小的州。
I mean, senator Sanders has never represented more than a very small, you know, state.
你知道的？
You know?
比如，在一个竞争激烈的州获胜，你需要有自己的想法，而且，我们会看到真正赢得胜利需要什么。
Like, win win a competitive state so you have your own ideas and, you know, like, we'll see what really is required to to to win.
你知道的？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，让我问一下。
Well, so let me ask.
他最近还呼吁暂停建设人工智能数据中心。
He's also recently called for a moratorium on building AI data centers.
我住在硅谷，我的联合主持人也是。
I work in Silicon Valley as do my co host.
中国非常喜欢这个想法。
China China loves it.
中国非常喜欢这个想法。
China loves it.
是的。
Yeah.
让我们把人工智能的竞赛交给中国人吧。
Let's hand let's hand hand AI that race over to the Chinese.
你认为党内领导人为什么支持这个想法？
Why do you think leaders in the party are supporting this idea?
如果我们这么做，接下来会发生什么，显而易见。
It's so obvious what's gonna happen if we do this.
但你知道吗，你认为人工智能会加剧这个国家的财富不平等吗？
But, you know, do you think AI is gonna increase wealth disparity in this country?
赢一场真正的、有竞争力的选举吧。
Win win a real, you know, competitive election.
赢一场。
Win one.
那时候你再来教训我，或者告诉我，嘿。
Then you can lecture me, or you can tell me, hey.
正确的方向是什么？
What's the right direction?
否则，你知道，他们就像是党内那些过于苛刻的人。
Otherwise, you know, like, it's it's like they are the they are the part of the party that's so hypercritical.
你知道吗？
You know?
还有那些极端做法，比如资助警察、废除移民与海关执法局，以及这些荒谬的主张。
And those kinds of excesses, like, to fund the polite and and abolish ICE and these outlandish kind of thing.
你知道吧？
You know?
他们现在就是那个喜欢胸口纹着纳粹纹身的家伙的同一派系。
They're the same part of the party now that loves the dude with the Nazi tattoo on his chest.
对。
Right.
我想快速谈一下农业。
And then I I just wanna cover agriculture real quick.
我听说绝大多数美国农场都亏钱了。
I I've heard reports that the vast majority of US farms lost money.
你是在参议院农业委员会，所以我才问你。
You're on the Senate Ag Committee, which is why I'm asking this.
我认为，如果联邦政府没有提供补贴、农作物保险和一次性救助，去年大多数美国农民将面临亏损，这正成为一个重大的全国性问题。
And this is becoming, I think, a big national issue that the majority of US farmers lost money last year if not for the federal government providing support payments, crop insurance, and would have been one time bailouts.
你认为我们有办法解决美国农业的问题吗？
Do you think we have a path to fixing agriculture in this country?
我们如何让农民重新走上正轨，让他们无需依赖政府补贴就能谋生？
And how do we get farmers back on track where they can earn a living without requiring checks from the government?
农业是一项极其艰苦的工作。
Farming is such a hard job.
我由衷地敬佩美国的农场，尤其是宾夕法尼亚州的农场。
I absolutely revere American farms, especially in Pennsylvania ones.
他们的工作，你知道，实实在在地养活了我们。
Their job, you know, quite literally feeds us.
我全力支持他们所有的努力。
I fully support all of their efforts.
你知道，许多这些关税让我深感不安。
You know, I was deeply troubled by men many of those tariffs.
而且，我接触过的那些人说，劳动力问题让情况变得非常非常困难。
And also, the ones that I talked to, labor, labor, labor has made that very, very difficult.
我知道，因为我去过足够多的农场，亲眼看到为了把食物送到你的餐桌上，需要付出多么繁重的体力劳动，所以我们应该庆祝并支持农民。
I you know, we should celebrate and support farmers because I know because I've visited enough farms to see how hard backbreaking labor it is to just deliver food to your table.
所以这是其中一部分，而且和这些事情是相关的。
So that's part that's part of it, and that's kind of connected to things.
幸运的是，我们的国家在粮食方面非常富足，而这正是为什么这与移民问题有关。
Thankfully, we have the kinds of abundance in our nation for our food, and now why that's why that's part of the immigration conversation.
这与关税有关，就像那样。
That's part of the tariffs and that wherever like that.
所以那些正在严重伤害我州几乎全都是红色地区的民众的问题。
So so the kinds of things that are hurting a lot of the people that are just almost form uniformly red parts of of my state.
是的。
Yeah.
而且为了总结一下，你说你想拯救民主党，而不是抛弃它，这一点你今天重复了好几次。
And and and just to wrap up, I mean, you you've said you wanna save the Democratic Party, not abandon it, which, you know, you repeated here today.
你是一名民主党人。
You're a Democrat.
但你知道，宾夕法尼亚州民主党人的支持率只有22%，你该如何继续推进呢？
But, you know, with only 22% approval rating among Pennsylvania Democrats, I mean, how do you carry this forward?
那么，你认为怎样才能让这个政党走出低谷呢？正如你所说，现在缺乏领导力和道德上的清晰度。
And, you know, what's the way to kind of bring this party out of the doldrums, if you will, that there's a lack of leadership and a lack of moral clarity as you call it?
正如我之前所说，当时有一个撤出，与之相关，让我觉得支持率大概是五五开。
Well, as as I said earlier, there was there was was a pullout that was con it was current to that, and it has me around fifty fifty.
你知道，这样更准确一些。
You know, that that's way more accurate.
所以我不担心28%。
So I'm not worried about 28.
你知道，我们现在有伊朗问题。
You know, we have Iran.
我们现在还有很多其他事情要处理。
We have a lot of other things right now.
所以，我只是觉得，这种客厅里的游戏没什么意义。
So, like, I'm just I'm not I'm not, you know, the parlor game's about something.
你知道吗？
You know?
说实话，我从未感觉如此坦然地投票——以国家利益高于政党利益，遵循那些极其重要的道德准则，比如遏制伊朗、保障以色列的安全，以及在犹太社区和以色列经历了一切之后坚定地支持他们，看到真正和平的希望变得更加光明。
Like, I've never felt better of just voting, my conscience voting country over party, and just following the moral clarities in really, really important kinds of of of things like destroying Iran, securing Israel, and standing with the Jewish community and Israel after everything that they've been through and how close how much more optimism of of real peace.
你懂的？
You know?
是的。
Yes.
现在有很多战争，但我认为这是一条通往更持久和平的道路。
That's there's a lot of warfare now, But then I think that's a path for for more enduring peace.
一直有很多人认真猜测你可能会在2028年竞选总统。
There's been a lot of genuine speculation that you might run for president in '28.
这在考虑范围内吗？
Is that on the table?
关于2028年的事，就像那样。
You know, it's like about '28.
我不知道美国人民想要什么，或者未来的方向在哪里。
You know, I I I don't know what what what America wants or the direction.
你知道吗，我正在遵循我刚才说的那些道德准则，
You know, I'm following what I've just said that's the moral clarities and
谢谢你能坦诚表达你的观点。
Well, thanks for speaking your voice.
费特曼参议员，感谢你今天参与我们的节目。
Senator John Fetterman, I appreciate you being with us on all in today.
这真是一次很棒的对话。
This has been great.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我喜欢和任何人的对话。
I I love conversations with anyone's.
这真的是一场真诚的交流。
That's just a real conversation.
是的。
Yeah.
叫别人名字、说些荒唐的话，这并不能让任何人感到如何，我不知道。
Calling people names and saying outlandish thing, that doesn't make anyone I I don't know.
我是说，我拒绝参与这种事。
Like, I refuse to engage it.
所以谢谢你
So thanks for
说实话，这让人耳目一新，我真的很感激。
It's it's a breath of fresh air, honestly, and I really appreciate it.
谢谢你，查克。
Thank you, Chuck.
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