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好吧。
Alright.
今天我们要为大家带来一场盛大的节目，亲爱的们，但这不是我们的预测节目。
We have a massive show for you today, besties, but it's not gonna be our prediction show.
我们原本打算做年终预测，但新闻中有太多精彩的故事要报道，所以我们把预测放到下周。
We thought we were doing predictions, end of the year, but we had so many amazing stories to cover in the news that we're gonna do predictions next week.
第一个故事是我们邀请了调查记者尼克·雪莉。
The first story is we have investigative journalist Nick Shirley on.
他通过一段爆红的42分钟视频，揭露了明尼苏达州潜在的1.1亿美元欺诈行为。
He has uncovered in a breaking forty two minute video that went viral a $110,000,000 in potential fraud in Minnesota.
这仅仅是总计90亿美元欺诈案中的一部分，我们在这里独家邀请了相关人员做客节目。
It's part of $9,000,000,000 in overall fraud, we've and got them on the show here exclusively.
这个视频显然可能引发了卡什·帕特尔和国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆的回应，他们已派遣人员前往这些设施进行检查。
This video apparently perhaps prompted responses from Cash Patel and DHS secretary Christy Noem who have sent agents in to inspect these facilities.
这里有一些重要的背景信息。
Here's some sort of important context.
明尼苏达州的这些福利欺诈行为已经持续了十多年。
These entitlement frauds in Minnesota have been going on for over ten years.
这是一个十三、十四年的老故事。
It's a thirteen, fourteen year old story.
它始于一位名叫杰夫·巴隆的调查记者，他于2013年2月在福克斯九台新闻首次展开调查，这是一位地方调查记者。
It started by an investigative reporter named Jeff Balon, Launched his first investigation into this in February 2013 at Fox nine news, local investigative journalists.
在那次曝光之后，2014年一名索马里女性及其丈夫被提起指控。
And after that expose, charges were brought in 2014 against a Somali woman and her husband.
他们保释后潜逃了。
They skipped bail.
他们从未接受审判。
They never faced trial.
这是巴隆2016年的一段45秒视频片段。
Here's a forty five second clip from 2016 from Baylon.
阿里面临多项诈骗和有组织犯罪指控。
Ali is facing numerous counts of theft by swindle and racketeering.
她经营着一家日托业务和家庭护理公司，主要服务低收入家庭。
She ran a daycare business and home health care company that catered to low income families.
但2013年，前员工向福克斯九台的调查记者透露，这实际上是一个骗取数百万公共补贴的骗局。
But former employees told the Fox nine investigators back in 2013 that it was really part of a scam to collect millions in public subsidies.
当我看到这家公司的银行账户时，发现有持续的大额现金提取。
When I saw the bank account for the business, there were large cath withdrawals on a continuous basis.
我可以
Can I
请问您几个问题吗？
ask you a few questions, please?
在我们的调查一年后，阿里被逮捕，并被指控骗取州政府约400万美元。
A year after our investigation, Ali was arrested and charged with bilking the state out of about $4,000,000.
好的。
Okay.
自2018年以来，根据联邦检察官的说法，明尼苏达州已发现约90亿美元的福利欺诈案件。
Since 2018, Minnesota has seen 9,000,000,000, around 9,000,000,000, in entitlement frauds according to federal prosecutors.
为了让大家有个概念，这相当于该州14项福利计划总支出的一半。
Just to give you guys a a concept of what that means, that's half of the total amount spent on 14 entitlement programs in the state.
以下是联邦检察官对明尼苏达州欺诈案的直接引述。
So here's the direct quote from the federal prosecutor on the Minnesota fraud.
其规模怎么强调都不为过。
The magnitude cannot be overstated.
这令人震惊。
It's staggering.
工业化规模的欺诈。
Industrial scale fraud.
自2022年以来，已有90多人因超过8亿美元的欺诈行为被定罪。
There have been over 90 convictions for more than $800,000,000 in fraud since 2022.
2022年，47名被告因一项名为‘喂养我们的未来’、涉及2.5亿美元的欺诈计划被起诉。
In 2022, 47 defendants were charged in a $250,000,000 fraud scheme called feeding our future.
这项计划本应为饥饿儿童提供食物。
That was supposed to feed hungry kids.
随后，有高达2.2亿美元的自闭症儿童资金被盗。
Then up to 220,000,000 was stolen in funds for kids with autism.
接着，3亿美元用于帮助残障人士避免无家可归的医疗补助资金也被盗。
Then 300,000,000 was stolen in Medicaid funds meant to help people with disabilities avoid homelessness.
因此，从2022年‘喂养我们的未来’欺诈案开始，92名被起诉者中有82人是索马里人。
So starting with that feeding our futures fraud in 2022, eighty two of ninety two people charged have been Somalian.
现在加入我们的是23岁的调查记者尼克·谢里尔。
Joining us right now, 23 year old investigative journalist Nick Shirley.
欢迎来到节目。
Welcome to the program.
谢谢。
Thank you.
最近几天在明尼苏达州真是乱成一团。
It's been a crazy past few days out here in Minnesota.
所以，我想一个好的切入点是，你可以向观众介绍一下你的背景，你是如何进入调查性新闻领域的？
So I guess a good place to start is you could tell the audience a little bit about your background when you got into investigative journalism.
显然，你有一个YouTube频道。
Obviously, you've got a YouTube channel.
我看过你16、17岁时的一些早期视频。
I watched some of your early videos when you were 16, 17 years old.
我感觉你的风格一开始有点像MrBeast，但后来突然转向了政治，特别是移民和一些类似Vox Pop的街头采访内容。
I would say along the mister beast vibes and then suddenly making a turn into politics specifically around immigration and some Vox pop kinda man on the street stuff.
但也许你可以跟我们讲讲，你是怎么开始这一切的，又是怎么接触到这个特定故事的。
But maybe you could tell us a little bit of how you got into all this and how you got into this specific story.
是的。
Yeah.
从我记事起，我就一直在做YouTube，大概是从高中二年级开始的。
So I've been doing YouTube as far as I can pretty much remember since the size of sophomore in high school.
我只是觉得这事儿我可能擅长。
It was just something I thought I could would be good at.
所以我做YouTube视频，高中时能做的就是拍恶作剧视频，偷偷溜进一些地方，就是些周末能做的有趣事情。
So I'd do YouTube videos, and all I could do in high school is to do prank videos, sneaking into places, just kind of fun stuff you can do on the weekend.
随着我年龄增长，经历了更多事情，我逐渐成熟，开始希望涉足更严肃的话题。
And then as I've grown older and I've had other experiences, I've matured and I've wanted to get more into more serious topics.
当我有机会去不同国家旅行，亲眼见识世界的真相，并积累各种经历后，这些经历引导我转向了这种调查性新闻内容。
And so as I've been able to go places and kinda see the world for what it is in different countries and whatnot and had different experiences, they kinda led me to get into this more investigative journalism content.
另外，大约在2020年，你在YouTube上发布政治内容几乎不可能不被取消广告收益。
And, also, back in around 2020, you couldn't even make political content on YouTube without were with without being demonetized.
例如，如果我在频道的标题或缩略图中提到特朗普，由于我的频道规模较小，就会被取消广告收益。
For instance, if you were to put Trump in a YouTube title or thumbnail on my channel, you would get demonetized because I have a smaller channel.
所以当时不可能做出那种内容。
So it was impossible to make that sort of content.
而且我当时还年轻。
And I was younger.
那时候我大约十七八岁。
I was about 17, 18 years old at that time.
而现在YouTube允许你盈利。
And now YouTube allows you to monetize.
我注意到你的节目里像许多播客一样嵌入了广告，而且你并不隶属于任何新闻机构。
I noticed you had ads baked into the program like many podcasters, and you're not affiliated with any news source.
据我所知，你也没有任何利益集团的支持。
And I to the best of my knowledge, you're not backed by any special interest groups.
你没有得到任何富有的亿万富翁的资助。
You're not backed by some rich billionaire.
那么，进行这些报道的资金是从哪里来的呢？
Where's the money coming to do this reporting from?
我想向观众确认一下这一点。
And just to confirm that with the audience.
是的。
Yeah.
我所做的所有事情都是完全独立的。
Everything I do, I'm 100% independent.
我的收入来自YouTube，以及YouTube视频中的品牌合作。
And so I make my money off of YouTube, off of brand deals inside of YouTube videos.
如果人们想捐款，他们也可以这么做。
And if people wanna donate money, they can do that.
然而，我所做的每一件事都是亲力亲为，除了我本人、我妈妈和几位其他编辑外，几乎没有其他人帮我工作。
However, everything I do is straight from my own hands, and I don't have any other people really working for me other than me and myself, my mom, and a few other editors.
那么，请告诉我们这个故事的由来吧，之后我将交给其他好友们提出后续问题。
So tell us about the origin of this story, then I'll hand it off to the rest of the besties to do some follow-up questions.
嗯。
Yeah.
我一直在调查这个欺诈行为很久了。
So I've been looking into this fraud for a long time.
从去年六月起，我来到明尼苏达州，想拍一个视频，记录索马里人口的增长情况，以及某些城镇的人口结构变化，比如教堂如何变成清真寺，清真寺如何在明尼苏达州扩张。
Since last June, I came to Minnesota to kinda do a video on what was happening with the Somali population as far as, like, how much it was increasing and and how certain towns have been, the demographics have changed, and how churches are turning into mosque and how mosques are growing inside of Minnesota.
我觉得这个话题对观众来说会很有趣。
I thought it'd be an interesting topic for people to see.
当我在那里时，很多人开始告诉我有关欺诈的事情，但我心想，我不能随便来就断言所有人都在搞欺诈。
And when I was there, lot of people were starting to tell me about the fraud that was taking place, and I was like, well, how do I I just can't come and label everyone saying there's fraud happening.
我需要证据。
I need evidence.
我需要真正的证据。
I need actual proof.
所以我一直在进行自己的调查，而在我YouTube视频中出现的一位名叫大卫的人，多年来也在进行自己的调查。他就在这些托儿所旁边工作，每天经过那里，却从未见过任何一个孩子在这些日托中心出现。
And so I I've been doing my own investigation, and then a man by the name of David who's inside of my YouTube video, he's been doing his own investigation for years as he's lit as he works next to some of these childcare centers, and he's driven by and he's never seen a single child at any of these daycares.
于是他开始调查资金来源，成功获取了这些人在CCAP资助下的资金数额——CCAP是免税的，金额高达数百万美元。
And so he started looking into the funding, and he was able to get the numbers of how much money these people were receiving from CCAP funding, which is tax exempt, and it was in the millions of dollars.
于是我告诉他们：好吧。
And so I was I told them, alright.
我要去明尼苏达州。
I'm coming to Minnesota.
我们去看看这些托儿所到底发生了什么。
Let's go see what's happening on these daycares.
当我到达那里时，我震惊地发现，我们去的第一个托儿所，所有窗户都被遮得严严实实，而且你根本无法打开门。
And when I got there, I was shocked to see when the first daycare we went to, all the windows were blacked out, and you didn't have the option to open the door.
一切都锁着。
Everything was locked.
所以请解释一下欺诈的具体运作方式，以便观众——如果他们还没看过的话——能理解这些欺诈是如何进行的。
So explain the the mechanics of the fraud just so the audience, if they haven't seen this, understand how these frauds are being played out.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，正在发生大规模的福利欺诈。
So massive welfare frauds being committed.
人们正在开设这些托儿所、家庭护理诊所，等等。
People are opening up these daycares, home health care clinics, you name it.
任何与健康、福利相关，甚至只是帮助人们的一般事务，比如托儿或医疗保健，他们都会开设这些公司，然后就能获得数百万美元的资金。
Anything that has anything to do with, like, health welfare or even just, helping people in general, like, with daycare or with health care, they're opening up these companies and then they're able to receive millions of dollars.
比如，我不知道州政府是否会对这些地方进行检查，因为这些地方的门外竟然挂着写着‘窥视’而不是‘学习’的标牌。
And the state, for instance, I don't know if they're doing any checkups on these places because these places literally had signs that said leering instead of learning on their on their doors, on outside.
什么样的企业会以这种方式运营，让你根本无法进入，或者窗户全部被封住？
And what business is operating in a way where you can't even go inside or the windows are all blocked out?
非常奇怪。
Very strange.
尼克，我想问你一个问题，我相信很多人也有同样的疑问：首先，我要说，你的视频需要很大的勇气，制作精良，而且你以非常简单的方式传达了一些非常复杂的信息，这是一项了不起的技能。
Nick, let me ask you a question that I think a lot of people have, which is when your video, first of all, let me just say, took a lot of courage and it was well produced, and you communicated some very complicated information in a very simple way, which I think is a tremendous skill.
但每个人都会问的问题是，我们怎么知道你是对的？
But the question that everybody asks is how do we know that you are right?
在传统的调查性新闻报道中，人们会遵循一套流程，并且必须购买保险。
And in traditional investigative journalism, there's a process that people follow, And there's insurance that you have to get.
然后还会涉及疏漏和错误，通常你必须与律师打交道。
And then there's errors and omissions and you typically have to deal with lawyers.
你在制作这个视频时，是否经历了这个过程？
Did you go through that process when you made this?
你认为这对你的可信度以及这段内容的独立性来说，是必不可少的一部分吗？
And do you think that it's an important part of what needs to be done for your credibility and for this piece to stand on its own?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为每个人都知道欺诈行为已经持续多年了。
I think everyone knows that fraud's been going on for years now.
就像杰森刚才说的，大家都清楚欺诈正在发生，但没有人真正去现场亲眼看过。
Like Jason was just saying, everyone knows that the fraud's being committed, but nobody's actually went to go see it firsthand.
他们知道这种欺诈一直在发生。
They're they know this fraud's been happening.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么人们很难承认这件事正在发生，或者理解主流媒体为何如此难以曝光这种欺诈行为，因为他们从未亲自目睹过，也没有机会拥有一个可以自行分享的平台。
And that's why it's been so hard for people to say, well, this is happening, or this is why mainstream media's had such a hard time to actually get exposure on the fraud because they've actually never gone and seen it firsthand, or they've had the opportunity to have a platform where they can share on their own.
对吧？
Right?
但你有没有像《纽约时报》或其他媒体那样，走完所有传统的流程？因为我真正想了解的是，我们如何确保你不会遭到攻击、被污名化，或者被人指责这个过程有缺陷、你在恶意中伤？
But did you check all the traditional boxes that The New York Times or other people because what I'm trying to get to is how do we make sure that then you're not attacked and that you're not discredited and that people say this process is faulty and he's mudslinging?
我们又如何确保你不会被诉讼拖垮？
And how do we make sure that you're not sued into oblivion?
是的。
Yeah.
而且要在此基础上具体说明一下，沙莫特。
And it's specific to build on that, Shammoth.
指控出来了，哦，你周六去了。
The allegation has come out, oh, you went on a Saturday.
哦，你圣诞节期间去了。
Oh, you went during Christmas.
我想你可以回应这一点，因为现在人们显然在质疑你的新闻报道。
And I guess you could address that because now people are obviously betting your journalism.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我是在12月16日去的，那是圣诞节假期前的一个工作日，所以情况就是这样。
Well, it's on I went on December 16 as a weekday before Christmas break, so there's that.
然后，抱歉。
And then, sorry.
问题是，关于我是否做了尽职调查之类的？
The question as far as, like, did I do the vetting and whatnot?
帮助我主导调查的那个人，大卫，他手上有国会的所有文件。
The man who helped me, like, lead the investigation himself, David, he had all the paperwork from the Capitol.
他有一个来自国会内部的人给他泄露信息。
He had somebody from inside the Capitol leaking him the information.
所以，我的事实核查，简单来说，就是他有一个来自国会内部的消息来源。
So there was my, like, fact check per se, was he had a source from inside the Capitol.
这就是我们能够准确获得这些数据的原因。
That's how we were able to get the numbers specifically.
你认为聘请律师帮助你应对这件事很重要吗？
Do you think that it's gonna be important for you to have lawyers that help you navigate?
因为，如果你继续深挖，我们家乡显然存在大量欺诈行为。
Because, like, if you build on this, there's obviously There's fraud in a bunch of stuff in our home state.
很多人希望你和像你这样的人去调查这些角落。
A lot of people would love you and people like you to start looking in all of these crevices.
但你确保所有法律细节都完善到位，这有多重要？
But how important will it be that you have all of the legal i's dotted, t's crossed here?
嗯。
Yeah.
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
我其实没怎么想过这个问题，因为我从未身处过这种拥有数亿资金的境地。
I haven't really thought too much about that because every I've never been in this position where you have hundreds of millions.
比如，我认为仅凭这次视频的播放量，就有超过五亿人看过，还不算主视频本身获得的一亿到一亿两千五百万次播放。
Like, I think over 500,000,000 people saw that video just alone just from all the impressions aside from the main video getting a 100,000,000 125,000,000 views.
对吧？
Right?
所以，是的，这确实是我必须认真考虑的事情。
So, yeah, that's something I definitely need to think about.
但我认为，最重要的是，我并不是想进去干预，而是更坚定地希望从外部给予人们透明度，让那些坐在办公桌后谈论此事的人无法掩盖真相。
But I think more than anything, I'm not trying to to go in and I'm more sure of just giving people transparency from the outside where people can't see it when they're sitting from behind the desk talking about it.
对吧？
Right?
对吧？
Right?
我并不是想强行介入这些企业。
I wasn't trying to barge in any of these businesses.
我只是在问，好吧。
I was simply asking, like, okay.
比如，这里能为孩子报名吗？
Like, is it possible to enroll in a child in here?
他们会说不行。
And they would say no.
哪家托儿所没有让孩子报名的表格？
Like, what day care center doesn't have a paper for somebody to enroll a child?
所以我觉得，是的，如果我想像詹姆斯·奥基夫那样针对特定人物进行诽谤，我知道他总是得请律师，而我一点都不想这么做。
So I think, like, yeah, I guess if I wanna if I was going to do defamation on specific people and stuff, like James O'Keefe style, I know he's always having to lawyer up, which I don't wanna ever have to do.
这简直太糟了，我讨厌处理这种事，我一点都不想沾上这些麻烦。
That's, like, would suck because I I hate getting I don't wanna ever have to deal with that stuff.
你搞定明尼苏达州了吗？
Are you done with Minnesota?
你已经把所有需要揭露的东西都挖出来了吗？接下来要去看别的州吗？
Like, have you uncovered everything you need to uncover and now you're gonna look at another state?
这个周末，关于俄亥俄州、伊利诺伊州和加利福尼亚州的讨论很多。
There was a lot of traffic this weekend about Ohio, Illinois, California.
那你现在打算怎么办？
What do you do now?
是的。
Yeah.
过去104天以来，我一直在持续制作YouTube视频，继续揭露明尼苏达州内部发生的欺诈行为。
So I've been making YouTube videos consistently for the past one hundred and four days, and I'll continue to show the fraud that's taking place here inside Minnesota.
我可不是只做关于欺诈的视频。
It's not like I only just do videos on fraud.
但我认为，向人们展示国内正在发生的事情非常重要。
But, I think just showing people what's happening inside the country is super important.
而且，是的，明尼苏达州这里还有更多欺诈行为，我确实有一期第二集，专门讲述明尼苏达州内另一类欺诈行为。
And, yes, there's a lot more fraud taking place here in Minnesota, and I do have a part two episode on a whole different segment of the fraud that is taking place within the the state of Minnesota.
就像你说的，很多人联系了我，无论是加利福尼亚还是俄亥俄。
And like you said, a lot of people have reached out to me, whether it be California or Ohio.
到那时，我必须得做些研究，以免陷入被人起诉的境地。
And, at that point, I will have to kinda I'll be doing my research as well to then not have to be in a position where somebody can try and sue me.
作为美国人，也作为年轻的美国人，这让你有什么感受，尼克？
What does it make you feel, Nick, as an American and also as a young American?
你从小长大，无论你的信仰体系是什么，你怎么看？
You grow up, whatever your belief system is, what do you think?
先把调查记者的身份放一边。
Put aside the investigative journalist part.
作为一个美国人，一个年轻的美国人，你到底怎么想？
What do you think as just an American, as a young American?
关于欺诈？
About the fraud?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这非常令人不安。
I think it's very upsetting.
我的很多朋友和很多人工作都非常努力，只是为了勉强维持生计。
I mean, so many of my friends and so many people are working we're, like, we're working so hard just to be able to get by.
我现在连一个23岁的朋友都没见过能买房的，而我们的祖父母那代人，总是聊起他们当年怎么买下第一套房子、怎么结婚。
Like, I don't even have a friend that owns a house at this point in their life, and they're 23 years old, and we talk to our grandparents, and they're all, like, talking about how they bought their first house, were married.
这对大多数人来说甚至都不可能。
It's And like, that's not even a possibility for most of us.
对吧？
Right?
当你看到有人赚了几百万美元，而且这不仅仅是几百万美元，还是免税的钱。
And so when you see that people are making millions of dollars, and not only is it millions of dollars, it's tax exempt money.
他们通过CCAP资金获得这些钱，而CCAP资金是免税的。
They're getting it from CCAP funding, which is, tax exempt.
对吧？
Right?
当我们辛勤工作，却要将收入的20%到50%交还给政府，而有些人却在源源不断地转移资金时，这让我们所有人都感到愤怒。
And so when we're working hard and we're paying anywhere from 20 to 50% of our money back into the hands of the government while people are just funneling money, it makes us all mad.
坦白说，这对任何人都不公平。
And it's not fair to anybody, quite frankly.
很有趣，弗赖伯格。
Interesting, Freiberg.
我知道你也和我一样对媒体感兴趣。
I know you're you're interested in the media as well like I am.
这个故事已经被当地新闻报道了十多年。
This story has been covered for over ten years by local news.
你进来做了这件事。
You came in and did this.
这几乎成了一个全国性新闻。
It became essentially a national story.
但当我们做研究时，我们发现上个月有一篇《纽约时报》的报道，但全球的CNN等媒体都没有真正报道过这件事。
But when we did our research, we did find a New York Times story last month, but none of the CNNs of the world have actually covered this.
所以这里似乎存在一些隐瞒行为，弗赖伯格。
So there seems to be a little pocketing going on here, Freiburg.
地方新闻坚持不懈地报道，像你这样的跑线记者尼克，出色地挨家挨户调查。
The local news covering it doggedly, run and gun journalists like yourself, Nick, doing an incredible job knocking on doors.
但在国家级层面，却出现了这种真空，弗赖伯格。
But there's this vacuum free berg on the national level.
对此有什么看法吗？
Any thoughts on that?
嗯，尼克，我
Well, Nick, I
我认为让你的内容如此吸引人的一点是，它是长篇报道。
think one of the things that makes your content so compelling is that it is long form.
当你观看《60分钟》或CBS或其他频道时，它们都被剪短了。
When you watch sixty Minutes or CBS or whatever, they're cut down.
它们更像是片段式的报道。
They're sort of like segment pieces.
时长只有七分钟。
It's seven minutes long.
你的素材之所以出色，是因为你呈现了原始真实的体验。
What's so great about your footage is you get the raw true experience.
这真正体现了公民新闻的本意。
It really is what citizen journalism is meant to be.
我们已经聊了很久了。
And you and I have talked for a while.
我想，几个月前我们聊过你在波特兰做的某些工作，因为当时我一直在问，波特兰的其他人都在做什么？
I think, you know, we talked months ago about some of the work you were doing in Portland because, like, I was asking all these questions like, well, what is everyone else in Portland up to?
因为所有新闻媒体的视频都只聚焦在冰场门口外面的情况，那里有二十个人在疯狂闹事。
Because all the video from all the news stations was what's going on right outside that gate where the ice facility was and there was like 20 people going crazy.
但波特兰的其他地方是什么样子呢？
But like, what's the rest of Portland like?
而你走出去收集了这些内容。
And you went out and collected that content.
我认为正是这种内容让您的作品如此引人入胜，因为它感觉如此真实。
That's the sort of stuff that I think makes your work so compelling is it feels so real.
电视台或CNN根本不可能做到这种工作——他们无法坐下来花四十五分钟观看您发布的这种真实影像，这太棒了。
There just isn't a way for a network news station or CNN to do that sort of work where you can sit down and spend forty five minutes looking at, like, the very real footage that you put out, which is awesome.
我可以问你一个问题吗？
Can I ask you a question?
你从小是摩门教徒，对吧？
So you grew up Mormon, is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
你去传教了吗？
And did you do a mission?
是的，我在智利做了两年的传教任务。
Yeah, did do a two year mission in Chile.
你觉得传教时挨家挨户敲门、公开与人交流的经历，帮助你做到了现在这些吗？
Do you think that that prepared you, like knocking on doors or engaging people openly in your missionary work to be able to do this?
因为我知道，很多记者如果要去纽约、波特兰，甚至现在明尼阿波利斯这些地方，亲自进入这些设施、直面人们，都会吓得要死。
Because I can tell you, I know so many journalists who would be scared shitless to go do the stuff you've done in New York City and Portland, now in Minneapolis where you're actually going into these facilities, looking people face to face.
你是怎么培养出这种能力的？
Like, how did you develop that that capability?
这和你的传教经历有关吗？
Was it rooted in your missionary work?
我觉得可能有一部分原因在这里，但我觉得作为最小的弟弟，总是得让哥哥们刮目相看，还得当他的朋友眼中的冒险家。
I mean, I think that might come from a little bit it, but I think being the youngest brother also really just always having to impress your older brothers and being the daredevil for him and his friends.
没错，我从小就没怎么害怕过。
Like, yeah, I just didn't grow up with fear.
对我来说，五岁时去玩自行车跳跃根本就不是一个需要考虑的概念。
Like, it wasn't even a concept for me to go and do go do the bike jump when I was five years old.
对吧？
Right?
所以，我一直都不害怕这些，我也从不害怕被拒绝。
So it's always been something that I haven't been afraid of, and I've never been afraid of rejection as well.
我以前做过挨家挨户的销售。
I used to do door to door sells.
传教期间，你 literally 就是整天到处走，试图跟人谈论耶稣，每天都被拒绝，只希望能有一点点成功。
And the mission, you literally are just walking around trying to talk to people about Jesus for two years straight, and you just get denied every single day, and you're just hoping to have, like, a small sliver of success for what you actually do.
这确实有帮助，但我的传教经历更让我了解了大规模移民的影响，因为我看到很多人逃离委内瑞拉等国家，来到美国，我亲眼目睹了边境发生的事，也学会了西班牙语。
And so that definitely helped, but my mission more so taught me about the effects of mass migration because I would see so many people fleeing countries like Venezuela, and then they came to the back to The US, and I saw what was happening at the border, and I was able to learn Spanish.
但我认为，总的来说，作为最小的弟弟的成长经历，加上我作为耶稣基督后期圣徒教会成员的道德观念——我不喝酒、不抽烟、不做任何这类事——
But the I think just, like, my upbringing in general, being the youngest brother, and then also my morals from being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do any of that.
所以我觉得，相比很多人，我在精神上更有优势，因为我的思维不会被成瘾或别的事情扭曲。
So I feel like I have an advantage compared to a lot of people as far as, like, my mind's always I'm not getting skewed with addictions or trying to go and do something else.
尼克，你现在还很虔诚吗？
Nick, are you still very religious?
是的。
Yeah.
我仍然是。
I am.
萨克斯，你对此怎么看？
Sax, what's your take on this?
我问过弗里伯格一个问题，你还没来得及回答，也许你可以谈谈：这件事虽然没登上全国媒体，但在地方媒体上出现过，而且显然在X平台上也有传播。
And the question I asked Freiberg, which you didn't get to, maybe you could take, which is this hasn't seemed to made make the the national press, but it has been on the local, and, obviously, it's on x.
也许你能分析一下媒体环境，以及你如何看待尼克在2025年所扮演的角色。
Maybe you could give your handicapping of the media sphere and Nick's role in it as you see it in 2025.
我认为这恰恰说明了媒体的失职，他们没有报道这件事，至今仍未报道尼克的视频，而这个视频正如你所说，已经成了病毒式传播，观看量达数亿，人人都能看到发生了什么。
Well, I think it's an indictment of the press that they haven't covered this, and they still haven't covered Nick's video, which is now, like you said, a viral video with hundreds of millions of views and everyone can see what's happening.
你基本上面对的是一起规模达数十亿美元的巨大欺诈行为。
You basically have this huge multibillion dollar fraud taking place.
是的，正如你所说，杰森，十年前就有过类似的故事，但那些都是孤立的事件，可以被描绘成那样。
Yes, there were stories going back a decade like you said, Jason, but they were isolated stories where they could be portrayed that way.
我认为尼克所做的是揭示了这场欺诈规模巨大，且公然进行，却无人关注，也无人愿意揭露它。
And I think what Nick has done is show that the fraud is massive and in plain sight and no one bothered, no one cared enough to expose it.
而且，尼克，你是通过走访这些所谓的日托中心完成的，这些中心从政府那里领取补助金，每个中心每年的金额是多少？
And, you know, Nick, you did this by just going around to all these supposed day care centers which are receiving vouchers from the government, anywhere from what?
每个日托中心每年根据虚构的儿童入学人数，获得150万到400万美元不等的资金。
1 and a half to $4,000,000 per day care center per year based on fictional enrollments of children.
而这些中心根本就没有运营，却从政府那里领取数百万美元的资金。
And these centers aren't even operating and they're collecting millions of dollars from the government.
总计起来，估计达到了80亿到100亿美元。
All told, guess it adds up to 8 to 10,000,000,000.
所以，这是被从明尼苏达州窃取的纳税人资金，基本上是被这个索马里社区窃取的。
So this is taxpayer money that's being stolen from Minnesota, that's being stolen by this Somali community basically.
我认为这个故事之所以走红，是因为它包含了如此多的失序层面。
And I think the story's gone viral because it includes so many aspects of dysfunction.
我的意思是，你面临非法移民的问题。
I mean, you've got the issue of illegal immigrants.
索马里社区中的一些人是非法入境的，有些人则不是。
Some of the people in the Somali community got here illegally, some of them didn't.
然后你还有那些愚蠢地推翻了一些欺诈者定罪的自由派法官。
You then have these progressive judges who foolishly voided convictions of some of the fraudsters who were doing this.
我的意思是，这简直就是典型的自毁式同情之类的情况。
I mean, it's just a classic example of suicidal empathy or something like that.
所以你有了故事的这一面。
So you have that aspect of the story.
然后你还有政治腐败。
And then you've got the political corruption.
同样，这些都不是孤立的事件。
Again, these are not isolated incidents.
我认为我们必须将此视为一个系统的运作，而不仅仅是一些零星欺诈者的例子。
This is a case where I think we have to see this as a system at work, not just an example of like a few isolated fraudsters.
这里存在一些资金回流现象，通过欺诈流入索马里社区的部分资金最终又回到了政客手中。
There's some round tripping here where some of the funds that are going into the pockets of the Somali community through this fraud end up back in the hands of politicians.
这方面最极端的例子是，蒂姆·沃尔兹甚至将明尼苏达州的州旗改成了类似索马里国旗的样子。
And the really extreme example of this is that Tim Walz even changed the flag of Minnesota to resemble the Somali flag.
我的意思是，他们降下了旧旗帜，升起了这面类似索马里国旗的新旗，这显示了该社区的政治影响力，也正是因此，我认为许多政客对正在发生的事情视而不见。
I mean, lowered the old flag and raised this new flag to that resembles the Somali flag, which shows the political clout of this community, which is why I think a lot of politicians turned a blind eye to what was going on.
所以我认为，这个故事的所有要素都齐备了。
So I just think you've got all the ingredients here of this story.
我们既有这种自毁式的移民政策，又伴随着大规模的政府欺诈、玩忽职守与无能，再加上政治腐败。
You've got this suicidal immigration policy that we've had combined with massive government fraud, with dereliction of duty and incompetence, combined with political corruption.
这就是为什么这个故事迅速走红，并获得了数亿次的观看量。
And that's why the story's going viral and has gotten hundreds of millions of views.
所以，恭喜你，尼克。
So kudos to you, Nick.
当然，他们为自己辩护的方式是，首先媒体尽可能地回避这个故事。
And of course, the way that they are defending themselves well, first of press is trying to ignore the story as much as possible.
但当他们不得不面对时，所做的只是指责这是白人至上主义。
But to the extent that they have to confront it, what they do is just accuse this of being white supremacy.
任何注意到这种欺诈行为是由索马里社区实施的人，都会被说成是带有种族敌意。
That anyone who notices that this fraud is being perpetrated by this Somalian community, that somehow that must be racial animus.
这就是人们关心此事的唯一原因，或者类似的说法。
That's the only reason people care about it or something like that.
因此，他们指责尼克，而这实际上是最后一个要素，即再次使用这种陈腐的套路，将任何威胁这个腐败政府机器的人指控为种族主义者。
And so they've accused Nick, and that actually is the last element here, which is again this tired, worn out trope of accusing anyone who threatens this corrupt government machine of being somehow racist.
无论如何，我就说到这儿。
In any event, let me stop there.
尼克，我想听听你对这一切的反应。
Nick, let me get your reaction to all of that.
嗯。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我非常喜欢你所说的，因为太真实了，比如他们在这里发现一个人诈骗了700万美元，结果法官却推翻了判决。
I love everything you said because it's so true, especially, like, for instance, they found a man here with $7,000,000 he had committed in fraud, and then the judge overturned it.
对吧？
Right?
然后蒂姆·沃尔特却把像我这样的人称为白人至上主义者。
And then Tim Walt is calling people like me a white white supremacy.
他说我们是在搞白人至上主义。
He says we're acting on white supremacy.
不是的，蒂姆。
No, Tim.
这是数百万甚至数十亿美元的诈骗款，来自辛勤工作的明尼苏达州民众，却被不知送往了何处。
It's millions and billions of dollars in fraud of hardworking Minnesotan people that's being sent who knows where.
所以，今天我看了看媒体，发现人们说的那些话真是荒谬至极。
And so it's not like and then today, I'm just looking at the media, and people are is the craziest thing.
我一上去，就看到有人开始对我提出各种疯狂的指控。
I just get on there, and people are starting to say all these, like, crazy allegations about me.
我只能说，哇。
I'm like, woah.
哇。
Woah.
你们在哪？
Where are you guys?
甚至有人跑出来说我是个恋童癖。
People have even came out saying said I'm like a a pedo.
这简直太离谱了。
It's like, what?
我只是去做了大家多年来一直希望有人去做的事。
Like, I literally just went and did the job that everyone's been wanting to see done for years.
对吧？
Right?
我只是把焦点集中在一切上，试图把问题简化为单纯的欺诈行为。
And I just brought limelight to everything, tried to make it as just a simple issue about fraud happening.
让我们说清楚一点。
Let's just be clear.
你只是去这些托儿所，我查了你提到的CCAP。
You just went to these daycares and just I I looked up the CCAP that you mentioned.
CCAP代表明尼苏达州儿童保育援助计划。
It's the Minnesota Child Care Assistance Program, is what CCAP stands for.
这是一个由州政府管理的项目，但主要由联邦资金资助，为低收入家庭补贴儿童保育费用。
And it's a state administered program, but it's funded largely by federal dollars to subsidize child care for low income families.
所以，承担这笔费用的不仅仅是明尼苏达州的居民，而是我们所有人，通过我们的联邦税款。
So it's not just Minnesotans who are paying for this, it's all of us through our federal tax dollars.
我现在看到许多其他州的评论者纷纷跟进说：嘿，你知道吗？
And I'm seeing a lot of follow on commentators in other states now saying, hey, you know what?
在俄亥俄州或华盛顿州，我们正在审查政府记录，发现有超过500家索马里人拥有的托儿中心。
In Ohio or in the state of Washington, we're looking at the government roles and we're seeing that there's over 500 Somali owned daycare centers.
顺便说一句，这仅仅是众多欺诈行为中的一种，或者说是极其可疑的行为。
And by the way, that's just like one type of fraud or one type of very suspicious behavior.
但你可以看到，人们开始揪出线索，发现这种欺诈行为的蔓延路径。
But you can start to see that people are starting to pull the thread here and they're seeing like where this fraud goes.
这也开始引发人们对其他众多政府项目的质疑。
And it's starting to raise questions about lots of other government programs as well.
例如，在加利福尼亚州，我们每年投入240亿美元用于所谓的无家可归者项目，但无家可归者的人数却持续上升。
For example, in California, we have $24,000,000,000 going to quote unquote homeless programs, and yet the number of homeless people keeps rising.
众所周知，这被称为‘无家可归者产业复合体’。
And you know, everyone knows it's called the homeless industrial complex.
他们无法通过审计。
They can't pass an audit.
该州甚至拒绝允许进行审计。
The state refuses to even permit an audit.
因此，我们知道这个项目中存在大规模的欺诈行为。
So we know there's massive fraud going on in that program.
在全国范围内，福利项目中也存在大规模的欺诈行为。
There's massive fraud going on in entitlements across the country.
我认为尼克的视频在这里走红的部分原因在于，人们能感受到整个国家正被这种欺诈和腐败蚕食。
And I think part of the reason why Nick's video has gone viral here is people can kinda feel that the whole country's really being eaten alive by this fraud and corruption.
这也是我们面临如此巨大赤字和巨额政府债务的重要原因。
And it is a huge part of why we have such huge deficit, why we have so much government debt.
感觉终于有人揭开了这层盖子。
And it feels like finally someone's blowing a lid on it.
尼克，你似乎正在实现Doge当初的目标。
And Nick, it feels like you're achieving what Doge set out to do.
我认为现在没有人比埃隆·马斯克感到更被证实了，因为他在二月所说的一些话，如今已被你证明是真实的——确实存在大量福利欺诈。
And I think there's no one feeling more vindicated right now than Elon Musk because literally some of the things that he was saying back in February, you have now proven are true, that there's huge amounts of of entitlement fraud.
这些被窃取的资金中，有一部分流向了政客，他们要么支持扩大这一体系，要么对正在发生的事情视而不见。
Some of that money that is stolen then goes to politicians who then either support the expansion of that system or turned a blind eye to what's going on.
我认为，这其中一些甚至与选举舞弊有关。
And some of this is even connected, I think, to voter fraud.
所以你在这里谈论的是，被窃取的资金可能最终导致选举被窃取。
So you're talking about here stolen money maybe leading to stolen elections.
我的意思是，你真的像踢开了这块石头，我们现在开始看到下面一堆肮脏的东西。
I mean, it really feels like you've kicked this rock over, and we're starting to see a bunch of nasty things underneath it.
我觉得特别酷的是，你现在正在激励其他人效仿。
And what I think is really cool is that you're inspiring copycats now.
有些人把这称为去中心化的狗币，现在，希望我们能在全国看到成千上万甚至上百万个像尼克·雪莉这样的人出现，开始揭露这些政府项目背后的真相。
Some people have called this decentralized doge where now, you know, hopefully, we get a thousand or a million Nick Shirley's all over the country who start to show up and try to shine a spotlight on what's going on with all these government programs.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为人们必须意识到真正发生的事情，就像你说的，我们正在从内部揭开真相。
I think it's essential that people have realized what's actually happening and realize that, you like you said, like, we are getting Ian from the inside.
为什么我们的钱会流向这些地方？
Like, why is our money going to these places?
我们总在说蒂姆·华莱士上周还在大谈医疗保健的问题。
We all we always talk about Tim Wallace was ranting about health care the other week.
我觉得，既然你去这些公司时根本看不到任何成果，那就不该给他们几亿美元的资金。
I'm like, well, maybe you shouldn't be giving hundreds of millions of dollars to health care companies that have nothing to show when you go to their business.
还有你所说的一切其他相关事情，比如，我认为埃隆之所以感兴趣，是因为它用实实在在的画面让人们亲眼看到，而不仅仅是一个合同。
And all the other stuff that goes along with what you're saying, like, yes, this like, I think Elon's why it sparked Elon's interest is because it's physically showing people with their eyes, not just a contract.
它在互联网上引发了如此广泛的讨论，因为人们能够亲眼看到，并且在自己的社区中真实地感受到。
And it's sparked such con such conversation across the Internet because it's something people can physically see and people are actually feeling inside of their communities.
尼克，你认为那些欺诈者在被你曝光后，会不会变得更擅长掩盖他们的行踪？
Nick, do you think that the fraudsters are gonna get a little bit better at covering their tracks now that you've exposed them?
因为我觉得特别棒的一点是，你会直接出现在那些根据政府记录领取数百万美元补贴的日托中心。
Because I I feel like one of the things that was really amazing is you would just show up at these daycares that, you know, you can see from the government rolls are receiving millions of dollars.
它们自称是学习中心，但却把‘learning’这个词拼错了。
They call themselves a learning center, but they misspell the word learning.
所以它们叫‘leering center’（凝视中心）。
So it's a leering center.
而且这些地方都是水泥砖砌成的建筑。
And it's these cinder block buildings.
根本就没有信号。
Like, there's there's no reception.
那里一个人也没有。
There's no one there.
我的意思是，这简直太明显了。
I mean, it's almost like they've made it too obvious.
然后还有一些案例，那些人十年前就被抓了。
Then there were cases where you would have people that got busted a decade ago.
这些地点根本没变。
The locations didn't even change.
他们只是给这些欺诈企业改了个名字，十年后却还在同一个地方运营。
They just renamed those fraudulent businesses, and they were literally operating from the same locations a decade later.
我的意思是，似乎根本没人关注这些钱到底流向了哪里。
I mean, it's almost like there was just no attention paid whatsoever to where this money was going.
我只是有点担心，现在你揭开了这件事的盖子，欺诈者会不会变得更擅长掩盖行踪了。
And I'm just I I guess the only thing I'm kinda worried about now is that with you blowing the lid off this thing is whether the fraudsters are just gonna get better at covering their tracks.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为他们必须调查一下这些钱都送到了哪里。
Well, I think it they're gonna have to look into where they're sending all this money.
对吧？
Right?
因为如果他们真的想打击这种欺诈行为，本可以直接切断资金，说：好了。
Because they if they wanted to really confront this fraud, they could have just cut off the they could have just cut off the money and said, alright.
等一下。
One sec.
让我们花一个月时间，把这件事弄清楚。
Let's take a month, let's figure this out.
但他们没有，反而继续不断增加资金，甚至开始扩大规模。
But no, they just kept giving more and more and more, and they even started expanding it.
比如说，一个地方的自闭症病例怎么会突然增加？
For instance, how does a place just have an increase in autism?
这怎么可能发生？
Like, how does that happen?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
是的。
Yeah.
这让我开始怀疑，像自闭症这类问题的许多统计数据，在多大程度上是人为制造的？
It start it made me wonder whether a lot of our statistics about issues like that, like autism, like to what extent are they manufactured?
因为我们为人们创造了巨大的动机，去制造自闭症病例，比如这些欺诈性的医疗中心。
Because we're creating this huge incentive for people to create cases of autism, these like, you know, fraudulent health care centers.
这确实让我怀疑：我们还能相信任何这些数据吗？
And it does make me wonder like, well, can we trust any of the numbers?
具体来说，在你们提到的那些存在欺诈的地区，明尼苏达州的自闭症医疗补助索赔在五年内飙升了130倍。
Just to be specific, in the areas that you guys are talking about where they think there is fraud, Medicaid claims for autism in Minnesota spiked one hundred and thirty x in five years.
倍。
X.
是一千倍。
One thousand.
不是百分比。
It's not percent.
三十倍。
Thirty x.
倍。
X.
所以是一比三十，不是一比一点三。
So one to one thirty, not to one point three.
天啊，从
Oh my From
从2018年到2023年，数额从300万美元飙升至4亿美元。
2018 to 2023, it went from 3,000,000 to $400,000,000.
可能是水的问题。
Probably the water.
可能是水或者疫苗。
It's probably the water or vaccines.
也可能是任何其他原因。
It could be anything.
谁知道那会是什么？
Who knows what it could be?
这可能是欺诈。
It could be fraud.
杰森，我有个问题要问你，是两个方面的。
Jason, I have a question for you, which is twofold.
第一，如果你看了视频，你对尼克的行为怎么看？
One, what do you think of what Nick did if you've watched the video?
第二，为什么你以前的同伴们试图掩盖这个故事？
And two, why are your former brethren trying to bury this story?
我认为尼克正在从事新闻业最根本的行为，他理应受到赞扬，也确实正在受到赞扬，那就是去敲门，然后以最简单、最无偏见的方式提出问题。
So I think Nick is doing the most fundamental act of journalism for which he should be lauded and is correctly being lauded, which is just go knock on a door, right, and ask the most simple question in the most unbiased way.
现在这里有孩子吗？
Now Are there kids here?
我可以把我的孩子送到这里来吗？
And can I send my kid here?
你知道吗，我查了尼克的情况。
You know, I I looked into Nick.
我看了你的视频。
I looked into your videos.
你能得到什么基本的信息吗？
Basic could you get?
嗯。
Yeah.
这太惊人了。
And It's incredible.
他们没通过测试。
And they failed the test.
他们连最基础的测试都没通过。
They failed the most basic test.
最基础、最简单的测试。
The most basic simple test.
而且，
And,
你知道，我看了尼克的所有视频，因为每当有人做这种事——调查性报道时，人们会正确地——我一开始就跟查马斯提到过——开始核查核查者。
you know, I looked into all of Nick's videos because I saw anytime you do something like this, investigative journalism, people will correctly, and I alluded to this, Chamath, in the beginning, start to vet the vetter.
对吧？
Right?
我当时就想，好吧。
And I was like, okay.
告诉我关于尼克·雪莉的一切。
Tell me everything about Nick Shirley.
我们来看看他的所有推文。
Let's look at all his Twitter feed.
我们来看看他的YouTube视频。
Let's look at his YouTube videos.
这个人到底是谁？
Like, who is this person?
他们为什么要做这些事？
Why are they doing what they're doing?
我看了你在一个伯尼集会上以及其他一些街头采访活动中的提问，这也很勇敢，因为你可能会被打。
And I watched Nick as you ask questions at a Bernie rally and some other events where you're doing your man on the streets up, which is also very brave because you can get your ass kicked.
我不知道你有没有安保人员，但你迟早需要的。
Don't know if you have security or not yet, but you're going to need it.
你有安保人员吗？
Do you have security?
有。
Yeah.
现在我必须有了。
Now I have to.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
所以这是一项勇敢的举动，但新闻业的核心任务就是获取这些第一手信息，让观众在无偏见的情况下自行判断。
So this is brave stuff, but this is the core task of journalism is to get this primary information and let the viewer decide without bias.
我们可以批评《60分钟》和《纽约时报》，这类批评空间还有很多。
And we can criticize sixty minutes and the New York Times, and there there's plenty to go around.
但如果你回顾历史，我认为，尼克，你有巨大的潜力接过你在福克斯九台看到的那名本地新闻主播的接力棒，继续推进下去。
But if you look at the history of it, I think, Nick, you've got incredible potential to sort of take the baton that you saw from that local newscaster on Fox nine and keep building on that.
而且，戴维，正如你提到的，弗赖伯格，关于众筹和众包新闻，这在未来将非常强大。
And to your point, David, I think, Freiberg, you made about crowdfunding and crowdsourcing this journalism, it's it's gonna be very powerful in the future.
但如果你看看完成这些报道需要多长时间，这些事情往往需要数十年。
If you look at how long it takes, though, to do this, these things take decades.
所以我认为你必须持续关注这个故事。
So I think you gotta stay on the story.
如果你看看天主教会的曝光、《前线》的纪录片，以及《60分钟》对大烟草公司的调查，这些报道确实都需要很长时间。
And if you look at the Catholic church spotlight, the Frontline documentary, you look at sixty minutes and what they did with big tobacco, these things do take a long time.
所以你应该牢牢抓住这些线索，持续跟进下去。
So you should keep your hooks into them and and keep working it.
我觉得这里另一件非常有趣的事情是，现在美国每一个纳税人都不希望看到欺诈行为。
The other thing I thought that's really interesting here is this could be the opportunity right now is everybody in The United States who's a taxpayer does not want to see fraud.
他们不希望看到浪费。
They don't wanna see waste.
他们不希望看到滥用。
They don't wanna see abuse.
所以，尼克，我认为你的倾向是正确的。
So although, Nick, I I think your leanings are right.
你确定吗？
You sure?
我相当确定，90%的美国人不希望自己的税款被浪费。
I am pretty sure that 90% of Americans don't wanna see their tax dollars wasted.
如果有一群人，即使知道这是欺诈行为，也觉得无所谓，因为这能让他们的一方持续获胜呢？
What if there's a group of people that would be okay with it even if they were told it was fraudulent, but it allows their side to keep winning?
是的。
Yeah.
这简直就像一个阴谋论。
I I that's like a conspiracy theory.
我不认为
I don't think
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我说这是一种边界条件。
I'm saying it's a boundary condition.
我只是想知道，如果你真的把它摆出来，会不会有95%的人说这是错的。
I just wonder if you actually put it there that you would get 95% that says this is wrong.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为会有95%的人说这是错的，但我们拭目以待。
I think you'll get 95% that will say it's wrong, but we'll see.
我认为可能发生的情况是，这个问题可能会让美国人团结起来，达成共识：我们不希望浪费纳税人的钱。
And what I think could happen here is that this could be the issue that pulls Americans together that we could have consensus on, which is we don't want to waste our tax dollars.
撇开你是保守派这个事实不谈，尼克，这无关紧要；你是宗教信徒，这也无关紧要。
Putting aside the fact, Nick, that you're conservative, it doesn't matter, you're religious, it doesn't matter.
重要的是真相。
What matters is the truth.
这里的真相是存在巨大的浪费、欺诈和滥用。
And the truth here is there's massive waste, fraud, and abuse.
埃隆看到了这一点。
And Elon saw it.
埃隆告诉我们了。
Elon told us.
他证实了这一点，但却因此遭到攻击。
He confirmed it, and he got attacked for it.
埃隆完全正确。
Elon was a 100% right.
所有攻击他的人，可能不喜欢他的手段，以及他快速行动、锁门、停用信用卡的方式。
Everybody who attacked him, they may not have liked his tactics and how fast he was going and locking doors and turning off credit cards.
他的方法，他们可能不喜欢。
His techniques, they may not have liked.
但作为美国人，我们都可以支持不再允许任何欺诈行为，我们不应该向一个充满欺诈的系统增加税收。
But we as Americans can all get behind not allowing any more fraud, and we should not be increasing taxes into a system that is ripe with fraud.
我认为这一点每个人都会同意。
That I think everybody will agree on.
当所有这些欺诈行为发生时，它们阻碍了我们真正把钱用在可能真正让国家更加团结的事情上，比如，我不知道。
And when all that fraud happens, it keeps us from actually sending the money to things that we might actually, as a country, that might pull us together even more, which is like, I don't know.
如果我们根除这种欺诈行为，也许我们就能像世界上其他80个最发达国家那样实现全民医疗保健，因为浪费实在太多了。
Maybe we could have universal health care like the other 80 most developed countries in the world if we rooted out this fraud because there's just far too much waste.
所以我认为你做得非常好，尼克。
And so I I think you did a great job, Nick.
我认为，这正是投资新出版物和新新闻来源的巨大机遇所在，可以将像尼克这样的人与两三位其他人士组合起来，形成一个团队——尼克，你似乎正在组建这样的团队，然后你就有了一个永久性的资金来源。
And I think this is where we could see massive opportunity for investment in new publications and new news sources that take folks like Nick, pair them with two or three other folks, and now you got a team Well, Nick which it seems like you're building, and then you could have a permanent funding source.
所以，你现在只有GoFundMe吗，尼克？
So if you could get you only have GoFundMe, Nick, right now?
没有。
No.
我没有GoFundMe。
I don't have GoFundMe.
我只接受通过Venmo或QoSN的捐赠。
I just accept donations via Venmo or QoSN.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你
So you
你应该启动一个订阅服务，比如Substack或者其他平台，比如Beehive，利用当前的势头，把每月重复性捐赠从1万、10万提升到100万美元。
should start a subscription service, you know, like Substack or any of the other ones, Beehive, and you should literally use this momentum to get to 10 to 100 to $1,000,000 a month in donations that reoccur.
关键是持续性的收入，特雷莫夫。
That's the key is the reoccurring guide, Tremof.
现在有年轻人主动联系你，想和你一起做这项工作吗？
You have young people reaching out to you that wanna do this work with you now?
有。
Yes.
我觉得人们对此感兴趣。
I think people are interested.
比如，人们都在问：我们该怎么开始？
Like, people are like, how do we start?
我们该怎么做？
How do we do it?
这是个好问题。
And, it's a good question.
我觉得大多数人根本没去问过别人该怎么做。
I think most people are like, I didn't I didn't go ask somebody how to do it.
我只是
I just
去做了。
went and did it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以很多人害怕迈出这些步骤，但事实上，如果你想让事情发生，你就得去行动。
And so a lot of people are so scared to take those steps when in reality, you just have to go do things if you wanna make stuff happen.
我在X上看到一张图片，上面是一艘船撞上了冰山。
There was an image that I saw on X, and it had a ship running into the iceberg.
尼克，也许你能找到这张图。
Nick, maybe you can find it.
那艘船的名字叫‘纳税人号’。
And the ship's name was the USS taxpayer.
露出水面的冰山部分是明尼苏达州，而水下的部分是加利福尼亚州。是的。
And the top of the iceberg that was visible was Minnesota, But the bottom of the iceberg was California Yeah.
这太棒了。
Which That's great.
这是世界第四大经济体。
Which is the fourth largest economy in the world.
这仅仅是加利福尼亚州。
It's just the state of California.
我不知道你能不能展示一下凯文·凯利的推文，我转推过，还加了一些评论。
I don't know if you can just show the tweet from Kevin Kiley, which I retweeted with a couple of things on.
在这儿。
Here it is.
他说，有三分之一的大学申请者是假的。
What he says is a third of college applicants were fake.
在没有铺设轨道的情况下，花费了170亿美元用于高速铁路。
17,000,000,000 was spent on high speed rail with no track.
240亿美元的无家可归者资金消失了。
24,000,000,000 in homelessness funds disappeared.
320亿美元因失业欺诈而损失。
32,000,000,000 was lost to unemployment fraud.
医疗补助和食品券计划中存在大量不当支付。
Medi Cal and SNAP are rife with improper payments.
每年可能有高达1000亿美元从加利福尼亚州被彻底盗取。
It's probably a $100,000,000,000 a year that's being just completely pilfered out of California.
所以我不知道尼克·雪莉，你是否有时间来西部一趟，但如果你来，你会发现这里有着大量值得调查的腐败机会。
So I don't know if Nick Shirley, you have the time to come out west, but if you do, you're just gonna find an entire treasure trove of opportunities to look at.
哦，加利福尼亚州的欺诈行为非常严重。
Oh, there's massive fraud in California.
我的意思是，随着资金投入增加，无家可归者人数也在上升，这只是其中一部分。
I mean, the homelessness has just increased as they receive more money, That's just one part of it.
就像你提到的轻轨之类的问题，加利福尼亚州的欺诈行为简直疯狂，而且这里的税率也是全美最高。
And like you talked about the the light rail and everything like that, the fraud is, like, crazy in California and they have the highest taxes.
是的。
Yeah.
他们想要更多。
They want more.
尼克，有人找你谈过这件事吗？
Nick, has anybody approached you about this thing?
我发过推文提到这件事。
I tweeted it about it.
我以前从来没听说过，但这些人向我介绍了QUITAN这个框架，你可以代表州政府和纳税人提起诉讼。
I had never heard about it, but these guys educated me on it called QUITAN, which is this framework where you can actually sue on behalf of the state and on behalf of taxpayers.
有没有人找你，想利用你收集的所有信息来发起一些这类诉讼？
Has anybody approached you about thinking about using all of the information that you've garnered to try to launch some of these lawsuits or no?
有。
Yeah.
前几天确实有人联系了我，我打算和这个人通个电话。
I actually had somebody reach out to me the other day about it, so I'm gonna actually hop on a phone call with that guy.
是的。
Yeah.
另外，据我了解，一些举报人法律会奖励举报人相当于金额20%到30%的报酬。
Also, as I understand it, some of these whistleblower laws reward the whistleblower with something like 20 to 30% of amounts
在某些情况下，比例甚至高达50%。
Up that to are 50% in some cases.
是的。
Yeah.
这些金额我不知道是罚款还是被追回的款项。
That are I don't know if it's like fines or it's amounts that are recaptured.
被收回了。
Recaptured.
是的。
Yeah.
但我不确定。
But I don't know.
尼克，仅凭你揭露的这些巨额资金，你就能成为亿万富翁。
Nick, you could become a billionaire here just with all the billions you've exposed.
知道。
Know.
对。
Right.
我得了
I got
我得坐下来好好想想
I gotta sit down and figure it
出来。
out.
我知道这不是你这么做的原因，但你
I know it's not why you're in it, but You'd
会成为美国最受爱戴的亿万富翁
be the most well loved billionaire in America
如果你这么做了。
if you do.
当然。
Absolutely.
好吧，做法是这样的，既然你是在参考其他新闻报道，那就设立一个举报热线。
Well, the way to do it is, you know, since you're drafting off of these other news reports, is to set up your own tip line.
所以，尼克，你的网站是什么？
So, Nick, what's your website?
或者你有网站让人们捐款吗？你有举报热线吗？
Or do you have a website where people can donate, and do you have a tip line?
因为福克斯九台过去十年做的那些事，你拿不到举报人奖金，但下一次你就可以。
Because you wouldn't get the whistleblower awards for the stuff Fox nine's been doing for a decade, but for the next one, you could.
所以，尼克，人们可以捐款的网站是什么？
So what is your website where people can donate, Nick?
嗯。
Yeah.
一切都只在社交媒体上。
Everything just on social media.
所以，如果他们能在任何平台上给我发消息，我最好还是建个网站。
So if they can message me on any platform, I should probably get a website going.
我我
I I
尼克，人们可以通过哪个社交媒体账号给你发私信和捐款？
Nick, what's your social media handle where people can DM you and donate?
嗯。
Yeah.
就叫尼克·谢里尔。
It's just Nick Shirley.
如果你去X平台，我已经打开了打赏功能。
And if you go on x, I do have my tip section open.
所以如果你想去那里捐款，那就能获得全部的完美体验。
So if you would like to donate there, that gives them all the Perfect.
无论是Venmo、Cash App还是加密货币，你都可以直接在那里完成。
Whether it be Venmo, Cash App, crypto, you can all do it right there.
所以去 x.com/nickshirley，你可以直接去那里打赏，支持这种研究。
So x.com/nickshirley, you can go right there and you can tip if you wanna support this kind of research.
干得好，尼克。
Well done, Nick.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你目前是把所有时间都花在美国，还是仍在考虑一些国际事务？
Are you spending all your time in The US, or are you still thinking about some international stuff?
是的。
Yeah.
我这个月还计划了国际旅行，这些行程早在之前就安排好了，挺讽刺的是，大家都在谈论这种诈骗问题，但我得继续经营我的YouTube视频业务。
I have a international trips planned for this month as well that I had planned before this because it's funny that, like, everyone's talking about this fraud stuff, but I I have a business I have to run with my YouTube videos.
到目前为止，我已经连续每周发布视频长达104周了。
I've been posting every week consistently for the past a hundred and four weeks or so at this point.
所以我必须继续前进，为我的粉丝持续制作内容。
And so I have to keep moving on and keep producing content for my followers.
所以，是的，我还有其他视频，也会去其他地方拍摄。
So, yeah, I do have other videos and I have other places I'm gonna go film as well.
了解一下那些举报人法律。
Look into those whistleblower laws.
我觉得
I think
是的。
Yeah.
赚点钱。
Make some money.
是的。
Yeah.
赚钱。
Make money.
不
No
游戏中的耻辱。
shame in the game.
你可能会吸引大量投资者。
You'll probably get a ton of investors.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
它需要深入研究所有这些事情。
It needs to look into all that stuff.
所以，挺酷的，我之前有个加密货币社区，甚至资助了资金。
So it's been cool, like, the crypt I've had, like, some crypto communities that have, like, even, like, funded money.
我晚上就坐在笔记本电脑前，人们会给我转账。
And I have I'm, like, just down on my laptop at night and people are sending me money.
我心想，这是怎么回事？
I'm like, what's going on?
太棒了。
It's awesome.
干得好。
Well done.
你穿的是什么运动衫？
What's the sweatshirt you're wearing?
给我们看看。
Just show us
运动衫。
the sweatshirt.
耳环的质量。
The quality of the earring.
所以去耳环中心吧。
So go to the earring center.
现在卖吗？
Is that for sale now?
那是周边商品吗？
Is that the merch?
是的。
Yeah.
我现在就去外面拍个关于它的视频，在Alright那儿。
I'm gonna go do a video outside of it right now in the Alright.
你可以在你的YouTube频道上卖周边商品吗？
You can put on your YouTube channel for merch?
是的。
Yeah.
我会把它发到我的YouTube上，也会发到X上。
I'll put it on my YouTube and I'll just put it like on X.
我可能就只做一次限时发售。
I'll probably just take a one time drop in.
天啊。
Oh my god.
老兄，别从这事儿里找感觉了。
Dude, don't wanna a vibe from it.
我猜那个地方的负责人或老板今天在X上发了个视频，说：不不不不不，这真的是个日托中心。
The guy who I guess runs that place or owns it, he had a video on X today saying that, no no no no no This is a real day care center.
尼克只是碰巧早上路过，而那时所有孩子都在上学。
Nick just happened to come by in the morning, and that's when all the kids are at school.
所以他来得不是时候。
So he just came at the wrong time.
那件事特别搞笑的是，儿童事务部当时也在直播，她说那个日托中心一周前就关闭了，而且是在我发了最初视频之后才关的。
What was super funny about that too is the Department of Children was doing a live feed at that same time, and she said that that day care was closed one week ago, and it closed after I posted my initial video.
所以，当他声称那里还开着的时候，负责整个机构或政府相关事务的女士却说他们上周就已经关闭了。
So, like, while he while he was saying that it's open, the lady who runs the whole thing or runs something in the government said they closed it last week.
对不起，尼克。
Sorry, Nick.
在你走之前，我再问一个事儿。
Just one one before we lose you.
你有证据吗？或者你收集到了证据，证明这些机构内部的人参与了诈骗团伙并参与了欺诈行为？
Do do you have evidence or have you collected evidence that people within the agencies are part of the fraud syndicate and that they're participating in the fraud?
很难说你有确凿的书面证据，因为你很难获得这些资料。
It's hard to say, like, that you have, like, the paper trail of it because you don't it's hard to get get me the access to that.
但我觉得，如果你看看埃隆·奥马尔的净资产，如果真的像她说的那样，自从她进入国会以来，净资产从负数变成了三千万美元，
But I think if you just look at, like, Elon Omar's net worth, if it's true that went from negative to 30,000,000 since she's been in congress in
这些年。
the years.
是的。
Yeah.
合理。
Sense.
让我们，嗯，确保我们加上几个‘据称’
Let's, yeah, let's make sure we put a couple allegedly
到处都加上，是的。
all over yeah.
你说得对。
You're right.
这在社交媒体上到处都是。
It's all over social media.
但没错。
But Yeah.
这意味着它可能是错的。
Which means it could be wrong.
有可能，为什么没看到事实核查？
Could be And why haven't seen a fact check?
我的意思是，我没看到关于它的事实核查。
I mean, I've not seen a fact check on it.
一定要加上‘据称’。
Always put an allegedly there.
而且，我觉得
Just, yeah, also, I think
我认为国会议员可以报告一个范围。
I think congresspeople can report a range.
我认为范围是六到三千万，所以他们使用上限。
I think the range is six to 30, so they use the upper bound.
但让我们干脆加上几个‘据称’吧。
But let's just throw in a couple of allegedly.
但即便如此，她从负债变成了千万富翁，只用了
But still, she went from negative to being a multimillionaire in
两年。
two years.
争论这一点。
Debating that.
我认为这个趋势非常奇怪。
I think the trend the trend is quite curious.
尼克，我谈的不是联邦国会议员。
Nick, I'm not talking about the federal congressperson.
我指的是这些机构内部签署支票、批准这些中心的人员。
I'm talking about people within these agencies that are signing off on the check, signing off on these centers.
在你的调查和你进行的对话中，你是否有理由相信，这些机构和政府机构内部的人员参与并合谋实施经济欺诈？
In your investigation and the conversations you have, do you have reason to believe that the individuals within the agencies, within the government agencies are complicit at partnering and participating in the economic fraud.
是的。
Yeah.
100%。
100.
因为许多托儿所存在六七个违规行为，但政府仍在继续向这些托儿所提供资金。
Because a lot of these daycares, there's six, seven violations, and they're still continuing to give funding to these daycares.
而且它们使用的是同一个名字，同一个人开设的。
And they have the same name, the same person has opened up.
我参加过他们的一次欺诈委员会会议，同一个人一直在开设托儿所和医疗保健公司，这一切都是有计划的，他们已经全部安排好了。
I was in one of their fraud committee meetings, so the same person had been opening up daycares and health health care companies, and it was all a big he had they had all of the they had all mapped out.
而明尼苏达州政府内部仍有人继续签发这些支票。
And somebody from inside the government in Minnesota still continue to write these checks.
所以
So
他们并不傻。
They're not dumb.
他们不可能是傻的。
They're they can't be dumb.
对吧？
Right?
他们不可能这么蠢，这正是我想说的重点。
They can't be that dumb, guess is the point.
我的意思是，他们可能完全无能，或者装作看不见，又或者收了钱，大概率是前两种情况，但谁知道呢。
Well, I mean, it's possible that they're totally incompetent or they're turning a blind eye or they're getting payments, probably one of the first two, but who knows.
对吧？
Right?
他们收到的钱有个情况，就是CCAP资金是免税的。
Well, the thing with the money they're receiving is that CCAP money, it's tax exempt.
所以他们实际上直接拿到了钱，而且是以现金形式拿到的。
And so they they literally get, like, the the money and they get it in cash somehow.
他们不支付在那里工作的女性的工资。
They don't pay the woman that are working there.
有视频显示他们直接把现金递给那些女性。
Like, there's videos of them just handing the ladies cash.
在穆斯林文化中，他们可以拥有四个妻子，因此他们还能额外领取福利。
In Muslims, they're able to have four wives, and so they're able to collect welfare on top of that.
这就是为什么明尼苏达州81%的索马里人口都在领取福利，因为他们根本没给员工发工资，只是在领取福利金。
That's why 81% of the population, Somali population inside of Minnesota is on welfare because they're actually not paying the people, they're just collecting the welfare from it.
如果你去这里任何一家杂货店，你会发现它们根本不是普通的杂货店，里面设有六个不同的店铺，每个店铺都有汇款服务点，把钱源源不断地转往其他国家和家乡。
And then if you go into any of the grocery stores here, they're not grocery stores, they have like six different shops inside of them, and they all have money transferring sites inside there where they're just siphoning money out to other countries and back home.
很多时候，福克斯电视台在2017年就做过相关报道。
And a lot of time, you can there's actually Fox did a thing on it in 2017.
我确实有一个人即将出现在我的下一期视频中，他会谈这件事。
And I actually had somebody who's gonna be in my next video talking about this.
他以前在运输安全管理局工作，索马里人会 literally 携带数百万美元现金通过安检，然后从那里飞往兰塔，再转飞迪拜。
He used to work at TSA, and the Somalians would literally bring in millions of dollars in cash through TSA, and then they'd fly from there to Lanta and then to Dubai.
由于迪拜没有税收，他们会把这笔钱汇回索马里。
And then because there's no tax in Dubai, they then send that money back to Somalia.
所以，关于他们资助青年党（al-Shabaab）的传闻是真的，因为他们确实能够转移这些资金。
And so, like, the rumors of them funding al Shabaab, they're real because they've been able to funnel all this money.
一旦他们带着装满现金的行李通过安检抵达迪拜，就可以把钱汇到任何他们想去的地方。
And once they go through the TSA with the luggage full of cash and they make it to Dubai, they're able to send it to wherever they'd like.
那是一个恐怖组织吗？
That's a terrorist group?
是的。
Or Yeah.
青年党。
Al Shabaab.
对。
Yeah.
这个恐怖组织。
The terrorist group.
尼克，我再问你一个问题。
Nick, let me ask you another question.
在你的视频走红的过去两天里，我们看到明尼阿波利斯市长和州长都出来表示，我们需要保护这个社区。
In the last two days since your video went viral, we've seen the mayor of Minneapolis and the governor come out and effectively say, hey, we need to protect this community.
为什么你如此清晰地揭露了明显的欺诈行为，领导层却无动于衷？
Why do you think the leadership is not up in arms on the obvious fraud that you've demonstrated so clearly?
为什么明尼苏达州的政府官员不惊呼‘我们必须立即制止这一切’？
Why are the government officials within Minnesota not throwing their hands up saying we have to make this stop right away?
为什么他们采取的是防御姿态？
Why are they taking a defensive posturing?
是因为他们无能，还是你认为这里存在共谋行为？
Is it They're, like, incompetent or do you think there's, like, complicit behavior here?
这是因为他们能获得大量选票，大卫也提到过，这里还存在一些奇怪的选举舞弊行为，比如你只需要一张驾照，甚至在一次委员会会议上他们就说过这一点。
It's because if there that's such a large group of votes that they can receive, and David said it as well, there's some weird voter fraud that's also taking place here, where you just literally need a license, like, even one in one of the committee meeting meetings, they said that.
但本质上，英国也是如此，当他们把穆斯林大量引入这些地区后，到了投票时，清真寺的领袖或公寓楼的负责人就会说：好了，大家。
But, essentially, like, this happens in The UK too, is that when they bring in, specifically Muslims to all these areas, and then comes time to vote, the leader of the mosque or the leader of this apartment complex will say, alright, everyone.
现在该去投票了，我们一起投给这个人。
Now it's time to go vote, and let's go vote for this person.
因为这很难，涉及到伊斯兰教以及一切相关因素。
And because it it the the it's tough because of Islam and everything.
比如，他们的宗教信仰本应让他们更保守，如果他们真的按照自己的价值观投票的话，但他们总是投给民主党。
Like, their religion like, they should be more conservative if they're actually voting off what they care for because of their values, but they're always voting democratically.
他们总是投给民主党。
They're always voting for for the democrats.
如果你认为人们
If you think people
会捐出更多钱。
are gonna give more money.
没错。
Exactly.
所以他们并不是真正为自己相信的东西投票，而是投票给那些会持续给他们拨款、持续开支票的人。
And so they're not really voting for what they actually believe in, they're voting for who's gonna keep funding them and who's gonna keep writing the checks.
因此你会看到他们去索马里餐厅吃饭，当那人试图把食物送进嘴里时，你可以看出那些家伙都快吐了。
And so that's why you'll see them going to eat at a Somalian restaurant and you can tell the guys are out ready to barf when he's trying to put the food into his mouth.
然后那个女人在他们的杂货店里面戴头巾，这纯粹是为了拉票而乞讨。
And then the lady putting the hijab on inside of some one of their grocery stores, it's just all panhandling to get the votes.
你提到了恐怖主义指控以及社会项目对恐怖主义的资助。
You mentioned this terrorist allegation and the funding of terrorism from the social programs.
这是你亲自调查过的，还是你在网上看到的，或者你和内部人士聊过的？
Is that something you've firsthand investigated or something you read online or something you talked to an insider about?
你能先解释一下这一点吗？
Can you unpack that first?
因为这是一个相当爆炸性的话题。
Because that's a pretty explosive one.
我知道贝松提到过，但如果你有第一手的了解，也许你能详细说说。
I know Besson has mentioned it, but maybe you could unpack your firsthand knowledge of it if any.
嗯，2017年就有相关报告了，而且现在还在不断披露。
Well, there's the reports from 2017, and then it's also came out.
这些信息仍在不断流出，人们也在讨论这件事。
It's still coming out and people are talking about that.
我认为就连美国政府也承认过这一点。
I think even the government the US government has said that as well.
而且，我也跟一些在这些超市工作的人聊过，他们经营着十多家门店，我问他们具体是怎么做的。
And, also, I've talked to people as well inside of these grocery shops where they have 10 different stores, and I ask them, like, what do they do?
他们这些店铺会把钱汇往非洲。
And they have these shops where they wire off the money to Africa.
对。
Right.
但关于资助恐怖主义这一点，你并没有第一手的了解，这一点要明确。
But specifically, the funding of terrorism, you don't have firsthand knowledge of that, just to be clear.
嗯，我觉得索马里那边的情况并没有那么顺利。
Well, I don't think, Somalia I I don't think it's, like, very ran very well.
所以，好吧。
So Okay.
我的意思是，那里有很多腐败。
I mean, there's a lot of corruption there.
我的意思是，当你主要的进出口涉及海盗行为时，我认为这 probably 不是好事。
I mean, when you're main, import and exports pirate in piracy, I don't think that's probably the best thing.
好吧。
Okay.
明白了。
Got it.
只是想确认一下，因为这是一个非常严重的指控。
Just wanna confirm because it's, like, an explosive allegation.
我想确保你不是在说你了解这件事
I wanna make sure you're not saying you know this
今天早上在国家电视台上播出了吗，J Cal？
is it on national TV today, J Cal, this morning.
嗯。
Yeah.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我知道。
I know.
所以我才在意尼克的表述方式，我想确认他是有第一手资料，还是只是引用了贝森的研究。
That's why I'm the way Nick phrased it, I wanted to make sure if there was firsthand knowledge he had or if he was just referencing the the Bessen stuff.
嗯。
Yeah.
很难说有第一手信息，因为谁又能轻易拿到那些文件呢？
It's really tough to say, like, it firsthand because it's always, like, how how does somebody just go get the papers?
所以你才依赖政府，就像他刚才说的，贝森出来谈这件事。
And so that's why you rely on the government, for instance, like he just said, like, Bessen comes out and talks about it.
所以我们有责任继续调查和研究，并且信任我们信任的人。
And so, like, it's our responsibility to keep investigating and looking into it and then also trusting the people that we trust.
那会是你的国际旅行吗？
Is that gonna be your international trip?
你会在国际旅行中去追踪这件事吗？
Are you gonna go try to track that down on the international trip?
不会。
No.
即使只有一美元
If even $1
小心点。
Be careful.
如果哪怕一美元流向了恐怖组织，那就完全是另一回事了，因为现在你谈论的不再是国内欺诈。
If even $1 went abroad to a terror network, this is an entirely whole new kettle of fish because now you're not just talking about domestic fraud.
现在你谈论的是国际恐怖主义，届时美国的每一个机构都会发表意见。
Now you're talking about international terrorism, and now you're going to bring in every single agency of The United States Of America who will have an opinion.
是的。
Yeah.
如果这是真的，那对这些人来说可是个坏消息。
That is bad news bears for these guys if this is true.
我会告诉你，你双击了它。
I'll tell where I I'll tell you you double clicked on it.
这简直就是你下一个故事。
This is, like, you next story.
小心点。
Watch out.
是的。
Yeah.
我会告诉你，作为公民，我最担心的地方。
And I'll tell you where I have the most concern as a citizen.
我最担心的是那些政府成员，他们要么共谋，要么视而不见，任由这些资金流向个人，而这些个人又用这些资金资助这些政府官员的竞选活动。
I'd be most concerned about these members of the government that are complicit or turning a blind eye to allow this capital to flow to individuals who then turn around and use that capital to make donations to those government representatives' campaigns.
如果发现政府官员故意让资金流回他们自己的口袋或竞选资金账户，作为公民，这在我看来是最令人愤慨的事情。
If that paper trail is found that the government representatives are causing money to flow basically back into their own pockets or their own campaign coffers, that to me is the most offensive thing as a citizen.
这不仅意味着他们纵容欺诈，而且
That not only are they enabling fraud, but the
他们早就知道了。
already know that.
我曾有加州的市长告诉我，他们亲口证实，政府内部人员的家人开设非营利组织，而这就是他们获取大量竞选资金的方式。
I've I've had mayors in California tell me about that, who've given me firsthand accounts of them knowing the family members of people inside of the government opening up nonprofits, and then that's how they get a lot of campaign money.
是的。
Yeah.
听好了。
Look.
这里有一个我们尚未提及的非常重要的词。
There's a very important word here that we haven't used.
我们已经谈到了无能、贪婪和盗窃。
We've talked about incompetence, greed, theft.
有一个非常重要的词，叫裙带关系。
There's a very important word, patronage.
这是一个裙带关系体系。
This is a patronage system.
一个前会计师叫Amuse写了一篇关于这个问题的精彩博客文章。
An ex account called Amuse wrote a really good blog post about this.
让我读给你听这一部分。
Let me just read you this part.
基本上，这种欺诈行为并非偶然的失职。
Basically, this fraud is is not incidental misconduct.
它正是裙带关系体系按设计正常运作的结果。
It is the patronage system operating exactly as designed.
大型福利国家产生可预测的资金流动，分散的官僚体系制造盲点，语言障碍延缓审计，文化上的顺从使执法陷入瘫痪。
Large welfare states generate predictable cash flows, fragmented bureaucracies create blind spots, language barriers slow audits, cultural deference paralyzes enforcement.
当一个项目被关闭时，另一个项目会以新名称、新董事会和相同的人马重新开启，资金通过多层次的非营利组织、空壳实体和非正式汇款网络流动。
When one operation is shut down, another opens under a new name, a new board, and the same people, money moves through layered nonprofits, shell entities, and informal remittance networks.
问责制消失了。
Accountability evaporates.
然后至关重要的是，这个系统并不要求所有赞助者都是索马里人。
And then crucially, the system does not require that all patrons be Somali.
它只要求赞助者得到报酬。
It requires only that patrons be paid.
非索马里政治家很快就会明白。
Non Somali politicians learn quickly.
他们采纳了社区的语言、象征和仪式。
They adopt the language, symbolism, and rituals of the community.
他们参加正确的活动，回避令人不适的问题。
They attend the right events, they avoid uncomfortable questions.
作为回报，他们获得选票、竞选支持和资金，并免于被指控种族主义或伊斯兰恐惧症。
In return, they receive votes, campaign muscle, and money, and insulation from accusations of racism or Islamophobia.
调查停滞不前，检察官犹豫不决，监管机构退缩，系统不断扩张。
Investigations stall, prosecutors hesitate, regulators retreat, the system expands.
播放这个视频。
And play this video.
这是蒂姆·沃尔茨。
This is of Tim Waltz.
我们播放一下‘Woah’吧。
Let's play Woah.
那
That
等一下。
Wait a minute.
这是蒂姆·沃尔茨，这位州长用一面新旗帜替换了旧旗帜，新旗帜的设计模仿了索马里国旗。
This is Tim Waltz, the governor of the state replacing their old flag with a new flag that's designed to resemble the flag of Somalia.
所以，萨克斯，为了明确一下，指控是他们明知这笔钱能买到选票，也知道这笔钱并不会
So the allegation, Sacks, just to be clear, is they are giving this money knowing it buys votes and knowing that it's not going
在明尼苏达州组织得极其严密。
to is incredibly well organized in Minnesota.
有一位总检察长的采访，他说这是另一个你可以找到的X视频。
There was an interview with the attorney general where he was saying that this is another X video that you can find.
我想他的名字叫基思·埃里克森。
I think his name's Keith Ellison.
无论如何，他说索马里社区在政治上极具影响力，是他当选的重要原因。
Anyway, he was saying that the Somali community was incredibly potent politically and was a big reason why he got elected.
就像我说的，他们组织得非常好。
And like I said, it's very well organized.
所以分配方式是，你
And So the allocation is you
通过给他们这笔钱去偷窃来换取他们的选票？
get their votes by giving them this money to steal?
好吧。
Okay.
这根本不是问题。
It's not even a question.
事实是，他们之所以只在那时给予，是因为他们允许这种欺诈行为发生，为了选票。
It's a fact that that's why they're give only after so they're they're allowing the fraud to happen because of votes.
等等。
Wait.
这又是你说的，说他们确实如此。
That's just again, that you're saying that's a fact that they are
请别表现得这么震惊。
Please don't act shocked.
拜托。
Come on.
不。
No.
不。
No.
这只是一个指控。
It's a it's an allegation.
我只是想告诉你，作为一名正在接受培训的记者，尼克，你应该去
I I just I would I would tell you, as a journalist in training Nick to put
你觉得这是巧合吗？
You think that's a coincidence?
据称在这些的前面
Allegedly in the front of these
事情直到你真正知道它是
things until you actually know it's
那面新旗帜是从哪里来的？
Where did that new flag come from?
我不是说他没有迎合他们，但说这是权钱交易，
I I I'm not saying he's not pandering to them, but to say it's quid pro quo,
这根本就是一回事。
just That's the same thing.
尼克，与其听萨克斯的建议，
Nick, instead of taking Saxe's advice here,
我最好的建议是，在确认是事实之前，先用‘据称’这个词。
my best advice put the word allegedly until you know it's a fact.
不要说它是
Don't say it's
事实，除非你
a fact unless you
确信它是事实。
know it's a fact.
据称。
Allegedly.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
只是为了避免你被起诉，而且你
Just just so you don't get sued and you
实际上知道它是一个
actually know it's a
我的意思是，说真话，比如，罪犯？
I mean, like, speaking the truth, like, criminal?
但因为它是一个事实。
But because it is a fact.
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Great.
你说它是一个事实。
You say it's a fact.
还需要多少进展
How much more progress
你需要多少，杰克？
do you need, Jake?
你不会相信的，直到蒂姆·沃尔兹被拍到从这些……的人手中接过一个信封。
You It's You won't believe it until Tim Walz is caught on video accepting an envelope from, you know, one of these
那是什么
What is
诈骗者。
the fraudsters.
这并不是
That's not
我的重点。
my point.
我的意思是，这是政治分赃，而且很多是无能所致，他们可能以为不会被发现。
My point is this is political patronage and look, a lot of it is incompetence, and they probably didn't think they're gonna get caught.
但更严重的是，他们对一个明显的问题视而不见，因为这会疏远那些在你所有选举中支持你的关键选民群体。
But on top of that, it's turning a blind eye to an obvious problem because it's gonna alienate a critical demographic who supports and has supported you in all of your elections.
就这么简单。
It's that simple.
杰伊·卡伦，Polymarket上怎么说沃尔兹会被起诉或入狱吗？
What's the Polymarket say, Jay Cullen, whether Waltz is gonna get prosecuted or go to jail?
让我们看看我们的Polymarket朋友怎么说。
Let's find out from our friends at Polymarket.
蒂姆·沃尔兹被指控了……，并且有一个交易量很小的6万美元合约，概率为9%。
Tim Waltz charged by ..dot, and there's a lightly traded $60,000, 9% chance.
2027年前有29%的概率。
29% before 2027.
这是你的另一个Polymarket合约。
And here's your other Polymarket.
在明尼苏达州的托儿欺诈案中，是否有人会在一月、六月、十二月、56年、5月9194日之前被起诉？
Will anyone be charged over day care fraud in Minnesota by the January, the June, the December, fifty six fifth 9194.
所以人们都在赌会有人因此被起诉。
So people are betting somebody is gonna be charged over this.
如果蒂姆·沃尔兹确实知情，并为了拉票而这么做，且能被证实，他就应该入狱。
And if Tim Waltz is specifically knows about this and did it to buy votes and that can be proven, he should go to jail.
如果他知道，或者那里任何一个人知道这些资金被转给了恐怖组织，那就是叛国行为，级别会更高。
And if he knows and anyone over there knows that this money has been routed to a terrorist organization, that would be treasonous, and that would be an even higher level.
所以我们需要对此进行大规模调查。
So we need to investigate this massively.
所以如果贝松在听的话，播客的朋友，是的，
So if Besson is listening, friend of the pod, yeah,
双击，双击，双击。
Double click, double click, double click.
这已经在斯科特的议程上了。
It's already on Scott's agenda.
这就是他之所以提到
He that's why he talked
电视的原因。
about the TV.
在谈论这件事，伙计。
Talking about it, dude.
他一直对此紧追不舍。
He's been all over it.
你现在没法躲了。
You can't hide now.
这简直就是潘多拉的
That that this is Pandora's
这是调查的一部分。
That's part of that investigation.
有人需要调查，为什么这三位自由派法官一再拒绝让索马里诈骗者承担责任，即使证据确凿且陪审团已判定他们有罪。
Someone needs to investigate why these three liberal judges have repeatedly refused to hold Somali fraudsters accountable even when the evidence is overwhelming and a jury has convicted them.
难以置信。
Unbelievable.
这三位法官推翻了定罪。
These three judges set aside convictions.
干得好，尼克·雪莉。
Well done, Nick Shirley.
下次你有个很棒的尼克时，
And next time you have a great Nick,
太棒了，老兄。
that was awesome, man.
谢谢
Thank on
再上节目，告诉我们一声。
the pod again and and let us know.
谢谢。
Thank you.
感谢你们。
I appreciate you guys.
感谢所有这些
Appreciate all that
历史的一侧。
side of history.
在X平台上支持以及类似的事情都意义重大。
Support on x and everything like that means a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
而且相信
And believe
相信我，加利福尼亚还有很多。
me, there's there's a ton more in California.
好的。
Okay.
让我依次问问大家。
Let me just go around the horn here.
快速问答环节。
Lightning round.
萨克斯，一年后，与我们在明尼苏达看到的情况相比，会发生什么？
Sacks, a year from now, what will happen in relation to what we've seen in Minnesota?
我希望会进行一次严肃的调查。
Well, I hope that there will be a serious investigation.
我希望会提出起诉。
I hope that there will be indictments.
我希望会进行大规模的驱逐，也希望一些纵容欺诈行为的官员能被弹劾。
I hope there will be deportations, hopefully massive amounts of deportations, and I hope there'll be impeachments to some of these officials who let the fraud happen.
哦。
Oh.
这个
The
这个国家仿佛正被欺诈蚕食殆尽。
the country is being eaten alive, it feels like, by fraud.
政府资金正在被盗走。
Government funds are being stolen.
选票正在被盗走。
Votes are being stolen.
我相信选举正在被窃取。
I believe elections are being stolen.
这一切都源于执政党根本不在乎钱花在哪里。
And it all comes from the fact that the party of government doesn't really care where the money goes.
对他们来说，这全是裙带关系，无论是用于索马里日托中心，还是用于一条连一寸轨道都没铺设的高速铁路。
It's all just patronage to them, whether it's to Somali daycares or whether it's to this high speed rail line that doesn't have one piece of track laid.
我的意思是，加州在这件事上浪费了多少？
I mean, how much is California wasted on that?
是的。
Yeah.
或者240亿美元用于解决无家可归问题，结果无家可归者人数却增加了。
Or 24,000,000,000 to the homelessness, only to see the homeless population increase.
看吧。
Look.
这些政客根本不在乎钱是怎么花的。
These politicians don't care how the money is spent at all.
他们只关心奖励自己的支持者。
All they care about is rewarding their supporters.
这就是整个游戏。
That's the whole game.
然后，这些支持者会把从政府那里获得的不义之财的一部分循环返还给那些政客。
And then those supporters round trip a portion of the ill gotten gains they've gotten from the government back to those politicians.
这就是整个游戏。
That's the whole game.
当整个体系因为腐败、低效和荒谬而崩塌时，他们又会怎么做呢？
And then when the whole thing blows up because it's just so corrupt and inefficient and so absurd, what do they do?
他们试图找些有生产力的人来当替罪羊。
They try to find productive people to scapegoat.
他们会说，那个亿万富翁才是你的问题。
And they say that billionaire is your problem.
他们会把责任归咎于亿万富翁，或者归咎于科技界。
They'll blame billionaires for that or they'll blame the tech community.
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