本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
一位在政府、商业和慈善领域都走在前列的领袖人物。
A trailblazing leader in government, business, and philanthropy
曾担任唐纳德·特朗普总统顾问的迪娜·鲍威尔·麦考密克，现已加入Meta平台，担任总裁兼副董事长。
A former presidential advisor to Donald Trump, Dina Powell McCormick, joined Meta Platforms as president and vice chairwoman.
她将协助领导公司大规模的人工智能扩展，包括数据中心、投资和全球合作伙伴关系。
She'll help lead the company's massive AI expansion, including data centers, investments, and global partnerships.
鲍威尔·麦考密克的背景正好契合Meta目前面临的新瓶颈。
Powell McCormick's background is exactly where Meta's new bottlenecks are.
人类正在迎来一场变革。
There is a transformation in humanity coming.
有了这项技术，现在没有什么能阻止它。
Nothing can stop that now with this technology.
每天有35亿人使用Meta。
3.5 billion people every day are on Meta.
我想我们都知道，未来三年可能就是决定胜负的关键。
I think we all know that the next three years could be the whole game.
女性是成功的秘诀。
Women are the secret sauce.
怎么样？
How about that?
让我们欢迎迪娜·鲍威尔·麦考密克。
Please welcome Dina Powell McCormick.
很高兴见到你。
Good to see you.
谢谢你能来。
Thanks for coming out.
嘿，很高兴见到你。
Hey, good to see you.
好的，很高兴见到你。
All right, good to see you.
你好吗？
How are you?
很好。
Good.
迪娜，感谢你来到这里。
Dina, thank you for being here.
我们刚刚和萨蒂亚聊完，讨论如何讲述数据中心的好处、它们对社区的作用，以及为什么它们实际上在经济上是正面的。
We were just finishing up a conversation with Satya about how do we tell the story about the benefit of data centers and what they're doing to communities and why they're actually net economically positive.
我知道你——所以我直接切入正题，因为我知道你有一个相关的视频。
And I know you-- So I'm going to get right into it because I know you actually have a video on this.
你想直接放你的视频吗？
Do you want to just start with your video?
这样可以吗？
Would that be okay?
那太好了。
That'd be great.
我只想说，能来参加All-In峰会，我特别兴奋。
I just want to say, so psyched to be at the All-In Summit.
这是我第一次发言，只要这期节目和这个小组讨论的收听量和观看量能超过麦考密克参议员来的时候，我就非常非常满意了。
First time to speak, and as long as this episode and panel gets way more listeners and views than Senator McCormick's did when he came on I'll be very, very happy with that.
那我们现在就放视频吧。
So now we can roll the tape.
太好了。
That's great.
没有竞争。
No competition.
好。
Good.
我们把它放到Polymarket上。
We'll put it on Polymarket.
我们来看视频。
Let's watch the video.
里奇兰教区是个被机会遗忘的地方。
Richland Parish was the place that opportunity forgot about.
我从小在这里长大，见过很多人为了找工作搬走，包括我儿子。
I've grown up here my whole life, and I've seen a lot of people move away looking for work, including my son.
最近经常听到的一句话是：“这里已经没有我们的未来了。”
What you were hearing a lot lately was, "There's nothing here for us anymore."
我们知道，有了数据中心，这里就能有一个以前没有过的产业。
We knew that having a data center would give us an industry here that we haven't had before.
这对我们社区来说是一笔巨大的投资。
That's a huge investment in our community.
我们开这家店，就是因为Meta要来了。
We started this business simply because Meta was coming.
当初能接待40个人的餐饮，我们就觉得已经发了大财。
We thought we had hit it big when we got to cater for 40 people.
现在我们一周要接待400人。
Now we do 400 a week.
自从Meta来了以后，我们又招了不少员工。
Since Meta came to town, we've hired more employees.
像Meta在里奇兰教区这样数十亿美元的资本投资，真是具有变革性的。
A multi-billion dollar capital investment like the one that Meta is making in Richland Parish is, it was transformative.
能吸引并留住优秀的教师，这让人非常兴奋。
It's extremely exciting to attract and retain quality teachers.
所以当我第一次听到奖金的消息时，简直惊呆了。
So when I first got the news about the bonus, it was jaw-dropping.
我的嘴真的张得大大的。
My mouth was literally wide open.
我们不是为了钱才当老师的。
We're not in it for the money.
我们当老师是因为发自内心，但奖金确实帮了大忙。
We're teachers because it's in our heart, but the bonus has been extremely helpful.
有了Meta对我们社区的投资，现在我们能更好地照顾自己人了。
With the investment that Meta has made in our community, now we can do a better job of taking care of our own.
我对学生们的未来确实充满希望。
I do feel a lot of hope for the future of my students.
这给了他们以前想都不敢想的机会。
It gives them the opportunity that they never thought that they would have.
我觉得最大的变化之一，就是人们开始回到家乡。
And I would say one of the biggest things is people coming back home.
未来就在这里，就在此刻发生。
The future is happening here and happening now.
视频里的一些人今天在场吗？
You have some folks from the video here?
在的。
I do.
要不要请他们上来？
Should we bring them out?
他们可以上来吗？
Can they come on out?
上来吧。
Come on out.
谢尔顿和苏珊。
Sheldon and Susan.
我们有视频里的那位学监，来自里奇兰教区的学监。
We have the superintendent from that video, the superintendent in Richland Parish.
谢谢你们来参加。
Thanks for joining us.
很高兴。
Pleasure.
你好。
Hi.
先生。
Sir.
太好了。
Awesome.
很高兴认识你。
Nice to meet you.
谢谢你能来。
Thanks for joining us.
嗨，谢尔顿。
Hi, Sheldon.
你好吗？
How are you?
下来吧。
Come on down.
很高兴见到你。
Good to meet.
你好吗？
How are you?
挺好的。
Good.
谢谢你来到这里。
Thank you for being here.
谢谢你们邀请我们。
Thanks for having us.
你要不要做个介绍？
You want to do an introduction?
好啊。
Sure.
真是莫大的荣幸。
What an honor.
能跟谢尔顿和苏珊一起在这里，对我来说是莫大的荣幸。
It's an honor for me to be here with Sheldon and Susan.
我们在路易斯安那州待了不少时间。
We've spent a lot of time in Louisiana.
那是Meta最大的数据中心投资地，我一直跟他们一起在路易斯安那州，让我印象最深的是，坦率说，州长展现出的领导力。
It's our largest data center investment for Meta, and I've been with them in Louisiana, and what is remarkable to me is just the leadership that, frankly, the governor has shown.
苏珊是路易斯安那州的商务部长，也是经济发展部长。
Susan is the commerce secretary for Louisiana, the economic development secretary.
还有谢尔顿，我让他自己来说吧，但他在那里真的是个非常鼓舞人心的人物，而且正是他意识到，因为我们的投资，税收盈余会直接用于教师。
And Sheldon, who I'm going to let him speak for himself, but he is such an inspirational figure there, and he is the one that realized that because of our investment, the tax surplus would go straight to teachers.
也许你可以稍微谈谈这件事。
And maybe you could talk just a little bit about that.
所以，能来到这里真是太好了。
So it's great to be here.
我回想起我和Meta的第一次接触。
I just think back to my first interaction with Meta.
那是在2024年的夏天，在我们当地的社区大学，我记得会议结束后，我坐进车里，路易斯安那州很热，所以我打开了空调。
It was in the summer of 2024, and it was at our local community college, and I just remember after the meeting, getting in my car, and it's hot in Louisiana, so I turned the air on.
我就坐在那里，对自己说："游戏规则变了。
And I just sat there and I said, "The game has changed.
这将给我们教区一个前所未有的机会。"
This is going to give our parish an opportunity to do something that it's never been able to do."
所以当2024年12月举行奠基仪式时，我立刻就能看到我们销售税收入的增长。
So when the groundbreaking ceremony happened in December of 2024 I could immediately start to see the increase in our sales tax collections.
我们教区有六个征税实体。
There are six taxing entities in our parish.
里奇兰教区学校董事会收取该地区51%的税款。
The Richland Parish School Board collects 51% of the taxes for the district.
所以我看到销售税收入从5%、10%——这对学校系统来说是正常的——涨到了大约60%或70%。
So I was able to see the sales tax collections go from 5%, 10%, which is normal for a school system, to about 60 or 70%.
那时候，数据中心工地的工人数量也增加了。
And at that time, the number of workers at the data center site increased.
这些税收收入最高时达到了大约260%。
Those collections peaked at about 260%.
这是销售税收入的大幅增长。
That's an increase in sales tax collections.
哇。
Wow.
我们有一分和半分钱的销售税专门用于员工工资。
And so we have a one cent and a one half cent sales tax that's dedicated to employee salaries.
所以我们在学校董事会上宣布这些销售税的增加，我们是教育工作者，所以大家都能算得出来。
And so we're announcing these sales tax increases at our school board meetings, and we're educators, so people can do the math.
他们开始意识到这会带来更大的销售税支票，而这笔钱直接进入我们的工资。
They start to figure out this is going to translate into a larger sales tax check, which directly goes into our salaries.
所以在2025年12月，我们发放了一张半美分的销售税支票。
So in December of 2025, we gave out a one half cent sales tax check.
那张支票比前一年翻了一番。
That check doubled from the previous year.
所以从大约4000美元涨到了大约8000美元。
So it went from roughly about $4,000 to about $8,000.
但我们还没有看到销售税收入全年大幅增长的情况。
But we hadn't seen a full year of spiked increases in sales tax collections.
那是在今年六月发生的。
That happened this past June.
所以我们的持证员工在销售税支票上增加了大约4万美元。
So our certified employees received an increase of about $40,000 in their sales tax check.
哇。
Wow.
他们拿到了四万美元的支票？
They got a $40,000 check?
他们拿到了五万美元的支票。
They got a $50,000 check.
哇。
Wow.
哇。
Wow.
所以前一年的支票是一万美元。
So the check the previous year was $10,000.
所以如果把十二月的增加和六月的增加加起来，我们的老师净增了大约四万五千美元。
So if you take that December increase and the June increase, it was a net of about $45,000 for our teachers.
他们是不是都——因为我和迪娜在讨论这个小组时提到，大家都讨厌数据中心。
Did they all-- Because the reason Dina and I were talking about this panel, and everyone hates data centers.
在美国，他们的支持率是负80。
They poll negative 80 in the United States.
迪娜跟我讲了这个故事，我当时就想，"我们真该讲讲这个故事，因为太不可思议了。"
And Dina was telling me this story, and I was like, "We should tell this story because it is unbelievable."
之前老师和社区对数据中心也有这种负面看法吗？
Did the teachers and the community have this negative sentiment about data centers before?
他们是不是都，"我们讨厌数据中心。
Were they all, "We hate data centers.
我们不想让它们建在这里"？
We don't want them here"?
还是说，那是在这波浪潮之前，社区根本没怎么关注这件事？
Or was that before this wave happened and the community didn't really pay much attention to it?
我觉得一开始是因为不了解。
I think initially there was the unknown.
而且我们是第一批。
And we are the beginning.
我们是个起点。
We're a starting point.
我们没有任何可以参考的先例。
There was no reference for us to access.
我们不能说：“好吧，我们学校系统上一次有500亿美元的大投资是什么时候？
We couldn't say, "Okay, well, when's the last time we had a $50 billion capital investment- ... in our school system?
那我们该怎么应对呢？”
So how do we handle that?"
所以，是的。
So yeah.
几百万美元对我们来说都是巨款。
A few million dollars, that's huge for us.
所以当时有很多焦虑的想法。
So there was anxious thoughts.
我觉得Meta在给我们提供信息和教育方面做得非常好，而且这种工作还得继续下去。
I think Meta has done an excellent job of informing us and educating us, and that's going to have to continue to happen.
很多时候，这种沟通并不是针对社区里消息最灵通的人。
Oftentimes, this communication is not about the most informed person in the community.
而是针对社区里消息最不灵通的人。
It's about the least informed person in the community.
所以我们正在努力确保持续传递关于正在发生的好事的积极信息，因为我们的教区确实有很多好事在发生。
So we're working to make sure that we continue to get that positive message out about the good things that are happening, because there are a lot of good things that are happening in our parish.
是的，我想就总监提到的这一点来说，路易斯安那州在数据中心方面起步有点晚，但这反而对我们非常有利，因为Meta的投资是该州的第一笔。
Yeah, I think to the superintendent's point, Louisiana was a little bit late to the data center game, which has actually worked remarkably well to our benefit in that the Meta investment was the first one in the state.
而且因为这种合作关系，以及我们谈判的方式——我一直称之为合作关系，而不是谈判，坦白说从头到尾都是这样。
And because of the partnership, the way we negotiated the deal, I call it a partnership, not a negotiation, frankly, all along.
当我们最初提出这个想法时，甚至在您认识总监之前，社区并没有感到不安，因为有很多未知数。
The community, when we first brought the idea, even prior to you, knowing superintendent, the community wasn't apprehensive because there was a great deal of unknown.
请记住，那是大约20个月前，我们刚开始在那里进行对话。
Now, keep in mind, this was now about 20 months ago, is when we started the conversation there.
所以当时的议论没有现在这么多。
So the chatter wasn't as much as it is now.
但你说的这个社区，真的是非常渴望机会。
But you're talking about a community that was really starved for opportunity.
就像你在视频里看到的，我们的人口一直在流失。
As you saw in the video, we had lost population.
在这项投资之前，里奇兰教区的平均工资大概每年三万六到三万八千美元。
The average wages in Richland Parish were roughly 36, $38,000 a year prior to this investment.
所以，这个数据中心建在了路易斯安那州密西西比三角洲教区，显然是密西西比河三角洲地区。
So, the data center went to a place in Louisiana, Mississippi Delta Parish, that was Mississippi River Delta, obviously.
那里一直盼着这样的机会。
It was longing for this opportunity.
我们提前应对了这些，而且我觉得我们处理得非常明智，既解决了大家的担忧，也兼顾了对社区的积极影响、自然资源，还有我们听到的所有这些问题，对吧？
And we got ahead of that, and I think we got ahead of that very wisely in the way we addressed both the concerns, the impact on the community, the good impact on the community, and the natural resources, and all the things we're hearing, right?
我们听到——
We hear-
这么说来，这些噪音反而有点好处，也许你干脆去跟迪娜说，'我们就把你们的数据中心全包了。'
In a weird way, then, all of this noise is actually somewhat beneficial in the sense that you may just want to go to Dina and say, "We'll just take all your data centers."
因为你不能——我一直很坦诚——
Because you can't-- I've been quite honest-
我觉得我们的州长确实会这么说。
I think our governor would actually say that
……普通美国人的收入潜力发生了如此巨大的变化。
... such a discontinuous change in the earnings potential of normal, average Americans.
州长几个月前刚签署了一项行政命令，为我们制定了一个框架，让我们可以与大型用电客户打交道，对吧？
The governor just signed an executive order a few months ago creating a framework for us under which we will engage with large load users, right?
现在它给我们的好处是，我们可以挑挑拣拣了，对吧？
And the privilege that it gives us now is we get to be choosy, right?
我们有销售税豁免，这对拿下这么大规模的投资至关重要。
We have a sales tax exemption, which is critical to be able to land an investment of this size and this scale.
但现在我们真的可以好好选择我们的合作伙伴了，州长经常说，Meta 真的是我们的样板，它设定了非常高的标准。
But now we get to really court who our partners are going to be, and the governor claims it all the time, that Meta really was the prototype for us, and it set a very high standard.
现在这就是我们要遵循的标准。
And that's now the standard we're going to follow.
我们不是那些说‘不’的州。我们是那些说‘好，而且’的州。
We are not one of those states who is saying no. We are one of those states that are saying yes, and.
那你也许可以帮我们分析一下——建设、发展、创造就业的经济理由已经很清楚了。
So maybe you could help us with-- It's pretty clear the economic case for building and growing and creating jobs.
给我们讲讲社区提出的那些合理担忧吧。
Take us through the list of valid concerns communities have.
其中之一是污染。
One of them's pollution.
我不确定这是用天然气还是全太阳能可再生能源。
I'm not sure if this is running off of gas or if it's all solar renewables.
电费上涨、用水问题、闭环还是非闭环。
Increased electricity cost, water, closed loop versus non-closed loop
噪音污染，还有美观问题。
noise pollution, and aesthetics.
这些建筑通常建起来都很难看。
These buildings are awfully ugly, typically, as created.
这些情况有发生吗？
Did any of those apply?
你有收到社区的任何反馈吗？
Did you get any of that feedback from the community?
或者记者的反馈？
Or journalists?
你说什么？
What's that?
或者记者的反馈？
Or journalists?
不，其实这不是新闻报道。
No, actually, it's not journalism, actually.
问得好。
Good question.
这其实是事实，萨克斯。
What it is, is it's facts, Sacks.
这些事实是——
These are the facts of-
迪娜
Dina
……关于人民的。
... the people.
等等，让我说完。
Hold on, I'll finish.
这些是社区成员们真正担忧的事实。
These are the facts that community members have valid concerns about.
有些人身边建了数据中心，造成污染和噪音，还有水资源方面的担忧，有些社区的用电价格也上涨了。
There are people who have had data centers put next to them that are polluting, that are creating noise, and there are valid water concerns, and there are communities where their electricity went up.
所以我是基于事实在问一个严肃的问题。
So I'm asking a serious question based on facts.
我想知道这些情况有没有发生在你身上。
I'm wondering if any of those apply to you.
对，吉娜，你说过这会很容易的。
Yeah, Gina, you said this was going to be easy.
不，对，显然我们都是人，对吧？
No. Yeah, clearly, we're all people, right?
我们都听得到，我们都有同样的担忧。
We all hear, we all have the same concerns.
再说，有些是因为我们时机很幸运，因为那些问题在成为公众议题之前就已经解决了——
Again, some of it was that we got very lucky with the timing of all this because those issues were addressed before they became in the public forum-
当然
Sure
——成为议题之前。
... of issues.
第一，这里以前是农田。
Number one, this was farmland.
这里以前是农业用地。
This was agricultural land.
而且在早期与Meta团队的沟通中，他们决定采用一个更贵但更高效的系统，这个系统实际用水量比那片土地在耕种时还要少。
And early on in the conversations with the Meta team, they made a decision to use a more expensive but more efficient system that actually uses less water than was being used on that land when it was being farmed.
这个数据你平时很少听到。
It's not a statistic you hear very often.
关于能源的第二点，显然我们到处都在听到，但这里有两个非常关键的部分。
The second piece about the energy, clearly, we're hearing it across the board, but there are two really critical components to this.
第一，路易斯安那州有丰富的天然气。
Number one is that Louisiana has abundant natural gas.
目前路易斯安那州有大约三万两千英里的天然气管道，即使我们不再增加一英里。
We have about 32,000 miles of natural gas pipelines in Louisiana today, if we don't add another mile.
所以我们到处都能用上天然气。
So we have access to natural gas everywhere.
但在Meta与当地能源供应商Entergy的合作中，从第一天起，甚至在总统或州长发布行政命令之前，Meta就自己承担了发电成本。
But in the relationship that Meta created with Entergy, the energy provider there, from day one, before this was an executive order from the president or even the governor, Meta paid for its own generation.
它还为电网的稳定性付了钱。
It paid for grid resilience.
它还为电网升级付了钱。
It paid for grid upgrades.
它承担了风暴造成的费用。
It paid for storm costs.
路易斯安那州在遭遇飓风时会有风暴评估。
Louisiana has storm assessments when we have hurricanes.
这种情况时不时会发生。
It happens every now and then.
在飓风来袭时，他们并不在那里运营，却还要支付风暴费用。
It's paying for storm costs in a state where they didn't operate when these hurricanes hit.
所以这实际上减轻了路易斯安那州消费者的负担。
So it's actually taking burdens off of the Louisiana consumer.
所以这些问题都是真实存在的，而且都在最初谈判达成的协议中得到了解决。
So all those issues were issues, and they were addressed with the original negotiated deal.
我想说，这正是它成为我们与其他方合作范本的原因。
And I will say, it's really why it's become the prototype for how we move forward with others.
所以吉娜，这个问题是问你的。
So Gina, this is a question for you.
你以前是副国家安全顾问，所以回答这个问题时，不妨稍微带上那个身份。
You used to be the Deputy National Security Advisor, so answer this maybe with just a bit of that hat on.
杰森提出的担忧是有道理的，但数据对你来说，对其他人来说，都非常清楚。
Jason brings up valid concerns, but then there's this data that is so clear for you, but also for others.
你刚刚听了萨蒂亚的发言。
You just heard from Satya.
为什么这个虚假信息运动在美国能这么成功地传播？
Why is this misinformation campaign winning so soundly in America?
到底发生了什么？
What has happened?
好的。
Sure.
这是怎么回事？
What is going on?
当然。
Sure.
我觉得首先，Jason提出的那些问题确实是合理的问题。
Well, I think first, the questions that Jason raised are really legitimate questions.
对。
Yep.
而且我认为我们的出发点是，如果一个社区不想要我们的数据中心，他们有选择权。
And I think we start with a premise that if a community doesn't want one of our data centers, they get to choose.
他们可以自己决定。
They get to decide.
但我们必须更主动、更积极地解释我们的投资和合作意味着什么。
But that we actually have to upfront and way more aggressively explain what our investment and partnership means.
而且我们有一个协议，就是Susan和Sheldon描述的那个协议。
And we have a compact, a compact that Susan and Sheldon are describing.
首先，不只是支付自己的电费，还要努力降低电费成本。
First, not just pay for your own electricity, make sure that you're working to drive electricity costs down.
第二个问题是水资源问题。
The second is the water issue.
这在农田和农村社区非常现实。
It's very real in farmlands and rural communities.
但现在绝对有新技术，实际上是由人工智能驱动的技术，能够让你真正增加水的利用效率。
But there's absolutely now new technology, in fact, AI-driven technology, that makes you able to actually increase water consumption.
第三个是关于教师的问题。
The third is the teachers.
说实话，这不是我们最初的想法。
I'll be very honest, this was not our idea.
这实际上是因为这项法律允许，甚至规定，每一笔额外的税收盈余都直接用于教师。
This actually happened because this law allows or, in fact, mandates that every extra dollar of tax surplus goes directly to the teachers.
那位教育局长告诉我的一些事情，真的非常了不起。
And the superintendent was telling me things that just are so remarkable.
他以前招聘教师很困难。
He used to have a hard time recruiting teachers.
现在他的电话响个不停，整个路易斯安那州的老师都想过来，这可能会成为全州最好的学区。
Now his phone is ringing off the hook throughout Louisiana, teachers wanting to come there, and this may end up being the best school district in the entire state.
现在我们已经把学到的经验用在投资老师和急救人员上，你也看到了，这对小企业的经济发展产生了影响。
And now we have taken that learning and we're investing in teachers and first responders, and you saw, of course, the economic development impact for small businesses.
这就是我们的协议。
That's our compact.
无论我们走到哪里，Meta都会确保我们做到这些。
Everywhere we go, Meta makes sure that we do those things.
但是回答你的问题，Chamath，我觉得我们行业在沟通方面做得不够好。
But to answer your question, Chamath, I don't think that our industry has done a good job communicating.
坦白说。
Just flat out.
我们必须做得更好。
We have to do a better job.
但在你沟通任何事情之前，你必须有实际意义，产生真正的影响。
But before you can communicate anything, you've actually got to be meaningful and have real impact.
所以我们一开始就抱着一个想法，就是要做最好的行动者，做最好的合作伙伴。
And so we've started with the premise that we want to be the best actor and the best partner possible.
说实话，现在我们在路易斯安那州看到了实实在在的影响，我们在得克萨斯州和俄亥俄州的影响也让我们很自豪，但我觉得我们得多讲讲这些故事。
And now having, frankly, the impact that we see in Louisiana, we're very proud of the impact we're having in Texas and Ohio, but I think we have to tell these stories more.
我知道你是在暗示这些信息是从哪里来的。
And I know you're alluding to where is this information coming from.
我刚刚和科顿主席、马克·华纳副主席以及情报委员会的人在一起。
I was just with Chairman Cotton and Vice Chairman Mark Warner and the intelligence committees.
他们确实认为他们有证据表明我们的对手在试图煽动这件事。
They do believe they have evidence that our adversaries are trying to gen this up.
这个我不能评论，但我能告诉你的是，如果你想现在阻止美国，你会怎么做？
I can't comment on that, but what I can tell you is if you wanted to stop America right now, what would you do?
这正是你会尝试去做的事情。
This is exactly what you would try to do.
如果你是我们的任何一个对手，你会希望我们停止在美国建设数据中心，这样我们就不会走上在世界上主导人工智能的道路。
If you were any of our adversaries, you would want us to stop building data centers in the United States, so that we would not be on a path to being AI dominant in the world.
这正是你会采取的做法。
This is what you would do.
所以不管他们是不是真的在这么做，这绝对是一个你会考虑的策略。
So whether they're doing it or not, this is definitely an approach you would take.
而且我确实很客气地跟他们说了，这些都是很好的工作机会，那些想要这些工作、想要教师奖金、想要这些投资的社区，应该被允许拥有它们。
And I actually said to them very respectfully, these are great jobs, and the communities that want the jobs, want the teacher bonuses, want these investments, should be allowed to have them.
而那些不想要的，可以选择退出。
And those that don't should opt out.
但我们当然不希望我的公司以及同行们开始考虑在美国以外的地方建设数据中心。
But we certainly don't want my company and our peers to start thinking about building data centers outside the United States.
但是这些问题很容易被揭穿。
But it's so easy to debunk these issues.
关于水的问题，那个真是让人摸不着头脑——
The water one is the one that's just confounding that-
让人摸不着头脑
Confounding
真是让人费解，这个说法怎么还能一直流传下去。
... confounding that that narrative keeps staying alive.
我觉得你做得非常出色。
I think you did an amazing job.
X上有个视频，一个女人拿着一瓶脏水到处走，你看了就忍不住……
There's a clip on X of this woman with this bottle of dirty water that she trucks around, and you're just like-
太棒了。
So good.
没有……
There's no-
你知道我喜欢什么吗？
Well, you know what I love?
我喜欢的是，开国元勋设计的是联邦共和国，有些州会赢，有些州会犯傻然后吃亏，而你们会拥有巨大的经济优势。
I love that it's a federated republic that the founders designed, and some states are going to win, some states are going to be idiots and they're going to lose, and you guys are going to have this incredible economic advantage.
我完全接受这一点。
I embrace it.
对，我也想补充一下迪娜的观点。
Yeah, I do want to add to Dina's point as well.
就在老师们呼吁谢尔顿考虑去他的教区教书的时候，这个消息一公布
Just as the teachers are calling Sheldon to consider going to his parish to teach, the minute that got announced
你们就宣布要发五万美元的奖金。
... that y'all were giving $50,000 bonuses.
我都没法告诉你，路易斯安那州有多少乡村教区的负责人打电话给我说：“部长，你们有没有考虑来我们教区的人？”
I can't tell you how many leaders of rural parishes in Louisiana called me and said, "Secretary, do y'all have any who are considering our parish?
请带一个过来吧。”
Please bring one here."
所以，全球性的说法在路易斯安那州并没有发生。
So, the global narrative is not happening in Louisiana.
坦白说，我不认为这在任何地方都会发生——
Frankly, I don't believe it's happening everywhere-
有没有——
Are there-
就像宣传里说的那样。
... the way the propaganda says
全国各地的教师工会都打电话来问，其他州的人说：“这是真的吗？”
... teachers' unions calling you from across the country, like other states saying, "Is this real?
“这是怎么做到的？”
How did this work?"
然后他们开始有点感兴趣，想看看能不能参与进来？
And starting to kind of lean in and see if they can participate?
从历史上看，我们农村学校系统面临的一个挑战是，我们最优秀、最聪明的学生，他们在学校表现非常出色。
So historically, one of the challenges we've had as a rural school system is that our best and our brightest, they'll do exceptionally well in school.
他们甚至可能去我们当地的大学。
They may even go to our local universities.
但一旦他们离开，我心里很清楚，他们不会再回到里奇兰教区，因为我们提供不了能吸引他们的工作。
But when they leave, I have a good idea in my head that they're not coming back to Richland Parish because we can't offer jobs-
……能吸引他们的工作。
... that attract them.
所以他们离开了，去了其他州，去了其他城市。
So they leave, and they go to other states, and they go to other cities.
现在我们可以自己书写我们的故事了：如果你想离开去别处，你可以，但你不必非得走。
And now we're able to write our own narrative that if you want to leave and go, you can, but you don't have to.
在里奇兰教区，我们这里有机会等着你。
We have opportunity here for you here in Richland Parish.
你有能力留在这里养家糊口，我觉得这正在改变我们教区的叙事。
You have the ability to stay here to raise your family, and I think it's changing the narrative in our parish.
好的，迪娜，我知道你还有另一个视频要给我们看，是关于如何吸引更多工人来参与这个增长中的经济。
Well, Dina, I know you've got another video for us to watch also on how do we get more workers to come and participate in this growing economy.
在我们看视频的时候，不如感谢苏珊和谢尔顿的加入。
While we watch that, why don't we thank Susan and Sheldon for joining us.
谢谢你们两位的到来。
Thank you both for being here.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
是的，那太棒了。
Yeah, that was great.
那太棒了。
That was great.
太精彩了。
Fantastic.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢你，谢尔顿。
Thank you, Sheldon.
不客气。
Pleasure.
谢谢。
Thank you.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
很感激你。
Appreciate you.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢你们能来。
Very much appreciate you coming out.
很感激。
Appreciate it.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
我一直想做一番大事。
I've always wanted to do something big.
我知道，要发现那番大事，我就得参加这个项目。
I know that this is the program that I need to be in in order to discover that.
很多技术的进步都需要基础设施的支持。
In order for a lot of technology to advance, we need the infrastructure.
Meta 给了这些人一个机会，让他们参与其中，为未来打下基础。
Meta is blessing these guys with the opportunity to be a part of that, to help lay foundation for the future.
你可以没有任何经验就加入这个项目。
You can come into the program with no prior experience.
在这里完成四周的培训后，你就能进入职场了。
After you finish your four weeks here, be able to go into the workforce.
我很感激能有这个机会。
I'm grateful for this opportunity.
我很期待真正开始做这份工作。
I'm excited to actually get to do the work.
有一群学生认真对待这个机会，并且充满热情地去做，这对我来说意义重大。
To have a group of students who are taking the opportunity serious and are doing it with passion, that means everything.
一旦他们完成我们的课程，他们可以走很多不同的路。
Once they're able to finish our course, there's so many different paths that they can take.
我们学得越多，建立起这支劳动力队伍，就越能影响未来的几代人。
The more that we learn and establish this workforce, the more we can impact future generations.
我觉得这会改变世界。
I feel like it will change the world.
我准备好干活了。
I'm ready to work.
你刚才跟我讲了一个关于光纤技术员招聘的故事。
You were telling me a story about a posting for fiber optic technician.
你能讲讲那个故事吗？我觉得太不可思议了。
Can you just tell that story because I think it's incredible?
当然可以。
Sure.
所以，即使在我们路易斯安那州的站点，问题之一就是我们找不到足够的工人，而且你确实需要一批焊工、管道工、建筑工人和电工。
So, even in our site in Louisiana, one of the issues is that we just can't find enough workers, and you really need a set of, obviously, welders and pipe fitters and construction workers, electricians.
但每个数据中心站点真正需要的，是光纤技术员。
But there's something that every data center site really needs, fiber technicians.
就是那些负责铺设和切割光纤的人，我们就是找不到足够的人。
The people that just actually lay and cut the fiber, and we just could not find enough people.
于是我们制定了一个课程，和几家公司合作，比如CBRE等，然后我们发现这个项目根本不存在。
And so we just made a curriculum, and we partnered with a few people, CBRE and others, and we realized that this program just didn't exist.
所以我们决定，如果光纤技术员可以这样做，为什么不扩展到其他领域呢？
So we decided, if you can do it for fiber technicians, why not go beyond?
这是一个为期五周的快速培训项目，你会完成所有的安全培训。
It's a five-week fast-track training program where you get all of your safety training.
你会获得一个叫做“工地就绪”的认证，这样你就能找到工作。
You get designated something called Job Site Ready, so you can get the job.
在Meta，只要你从我们的数据中心站点毕业，我们就保证给你一份工作，而且无论你是想留在我们这里还是去别的地方，这个证书都有效。
We at Meta guarantee you a job if you graduate on one of our data center sites, and you have that certification with you whether you want to stay at our site or elsewhere.
展开剩余字幕（还有 369 条）
而缺失的一环在于，正如大卫·萨克斯反复提到的，未来几年这些岗位有50万个空缺。
And the missing piece is that while there are, as David Sacks has said over and over again, there are 500,000 open jobs for these roles over the next couple of years.
但人们真正获得这些工作之间还存在差距，因为事实证明，如果你是一名服务员、优步司机或家庭保健工作者，你靠薪水过活。
But there is this gap between people actually getting those jobs, and it's because it turns out if you're a waitress or you're an Uber driver or you are a home healthcare worker, you live paycheck to paycheck.
你负担不起无薪休假的时间。
You cannot afford to take that time off unpaid.
培训费用出奇地高，比如OSHA培训之类的。
The training is weirdly very expensive, OSHA training and things like that.
而且如果你参加了培训却没找到工作怎么办？
And what if you do that and you don't get a job?
所以我们推出了美国劳动力学院。
So we launched America's Workforce Academy.
我们大约四个月前推出的。
We launched it, I don't know, four months ago.
有4万名美国人申请了。
40,000 Americans applied.
我们已经毕业了250人。
We've graduated 250 people.
哇。
Wow.
而且我们的留存率是90%。
And we have a 90% retention rate.
所以那些进入这些承包商岗位的人，在我们的数据中心站点，你可以看到他们学到了新的技能。
So people that are getting into these contractor jobs, on our data center sites, you can see they've learned a new trade.
他们离开了那份不那么有成就感的工作，当然，每个雇佣他们的公司都非常高兴。
They've left behind a job that wasn't as fulfilling, and that, of course, every company that's hiring them is just thrilled.
还有一件有趣的事，大卫，我们之前聊过的，就是这个项目里我们有很多合作伙伴。
It's also something that's interesting, David, that you and I talked about, which is we have partners across the board in this program.
我们没有把Meta放在名字里，因为我们很高兴能和其他有兴趣招聘这些工人的公司合作。
We didn't put Meta in the name because we are so excited to be working with other companies that are interested in recruiting these workers as well.
但我们正在和工会合作。
But we're working with the unions.
肖恩·麦加维，就是那个行业工会NABTU的头儿，是我的朋友，我们和他建立了很好的合作关系。
Sean McGarvey, the head of the trades, NABTU, is a friend, and we made a great partnership with him.
那些工人有些在工会的工地上，有些不在工会。
Some of those workers are on union sites, some are non-union.
但在这次讨论中，一个有意思的声音来自工会。
But an interesting voice that has emerged in this debate is the unions.
工会领导现在说：“我们要成为反对数据中心浪潮的先锋。”
The union leadership now is saying, "We want to be the anti-data center backlash."
“这些是我们的工作。”
"These are our jobs.
“这些是给我们自己人的。”
These are for our people."
所以，他们甚至在中期选举之前就发布了一份声明，说他们只会支持那些支持数据中心的候选人。
And so they actually put out, even before the midterms, a note saying they are only going to support candidates that support data centers.
启动这个项目需要多少资产负债表上的资金？你觉得其他大公司，比如八大巨头，会不会联合起来，让这种新的教育路径成为美国的事实标准？
How much balance sheet capital does it take to get this thing off the ground, and do you see the other majors, the Big Eight, kind of joining forces and having this new educational track kind of become a de facto standard in America?
我们所有人都在为此努力。
All of us are working on this.
事实上，我刚和谷歌的露丝·波拉特聊过。
In fact, I just talked to Ruth Porat at Google.
她在劳动力方面做得非常出色——而且她实际上把大家聚在了一起——我们将加入这个联盟。
She's done an incredible job on workforce- And she's actually brought together-- We're going to join this alliance.
贝莱德的拉里·芬克已经加入了联盟。
Larry Fink at BlackRock has joined the alliance.
她正在召集其他公司。
She's bringing together other companies.
我们可能在模型和产品上竞争，但我们不想在人才上竞争。
We might compete on models and products, but we don't want to compete on people.
作为行业，我认为我们在这一点上做得很好，我们真的在合作，因为任何接受过培训能在Meta数据中心工作的人，当然也能去谷歌或微软的站点工作。
We, as an industry, I think, are doing this part well, where we're really working together because anybody that gets trained to work on a Meta data center site can certainly go to a Google site or a Microsoft site.
所以，这是我们真正团结一致的地方。
And so, this is a place where we've really come together.
那你们怎么扩大规模呢？
How do you expand the capacity?
有四万人申请，但你们只挑了四百人。
So there's 40,000 that applied, but you picked 400.
那剩下三万九千六百人怎么办？
That's 39,600 that-
对，我们四个月前才开始的，现在通用汽车的玛丽·巴拉都直接打电话来要人。
Yeah, and we started four months ago, and now we're literally getting calls from Mary Barra at GM.
她说：“我要一千名员工。”
"I'd like 1,000 employees."
一旦有了课程、认证和合作伙伴来交付，你就可以在任何地方推广。
Once you have the curriculum and the certification and the partners to deliver it, you can do these everywhere.
我们在社区大学和退伍军人协会礼堂里开展这些项目。
We're doing them in community colleges, VFW halls.
那个特定项目，你确实需要有一个模拟数据中心的地方，这样才能展示如何培训光纤技术员。
In that particular program, you actually have to have a site that's like a model data center so that you can show how to train the fiber technicians.
但我们正在与建筑商和承包商协会合作。
But we're working with the Association of Builders and Contractors.
他们在全国有成千上万个运营点。
They have thousands and thousands of places across the country where they operate.
迪娜，除了你们基本上在兜底之外，为什么像工地准备和OSHA安全意识这样的培训会这么贵？
And Dina, why is it so expensive, outside of you guys basically backstopping this, to get something like job site ready and OSHA awareness?
这看起来应该是在网上就能搞定的——
This should seem like you go online and-
我觉得我们解锁的关键是，我们在培训期间就支付你实际工作时的工资。
I think the thing that we unlocked is that we actually pay during the training what you would get if you are already in the job.
以前，学徒费或培训费很低，而且持续很长时间，并不是全额工资。
It used to be that there's a very low fee or an apprentice fee for so long that it wasn't the full payment of the job.
所以我们从一开始就这么做。
And so we do that from the beginning.
然后，当然，这些工作本身。
And then, of course, these jobs.
我和大卫在匹兹堡跟一些工人在一起，这些工作真的很不错。
David and I have been in Pittsburgh with some of these workers, and these are jobs.
在匹兹堡，焊工一年能赚10万到12万美元。
Welders make $100,000, $120,000 a year in Pittsburgh.
这是有意义的好工作。
That is meaningful, great work.
我觉得这个项目让我们最自豪的一点是，以前确实没有一条清晰快捷的路径能让人进入工地并保证有工作。
And I think the unlock that we're very proud of with this program is that there just wasn't a clear and fast path to getting on the job site and to having a guaranteed job.
你们有这些工作真是太好了，因为AI发展这么快，这些开发人员总得有事做。
It's great that you have these jobs because with AI progressing so quickly, these developers are going to need something to do.
所以我觉得他们可以转行去做电工。
And so I think they can segue into electrician jobs.
当然，我是在开玩笑。
I'm kidding, obviously.
不过你们在数据中心方面的工作真的非常棒，我完全支持。
But absolutely fantastic work on the data centers, fully support it.
Meta眼镜做得真棒。
Great job on the Meta glasses.
太厉害了。
Amazing.
而且这个项目——
And this effort-
Jason，你的Meta眼镜在哪儿呢？
Where are your Meta glasses, Jason?
我给你那么酷的——
I gave you such cool-
就在这儿，在包上。
They're right here on the bag.
就在我的背包里。
Right in my backpack.
不，它们真的超级惊艳。
No, they're actually super impressive.
我带了眼镜来，想和你一起戴。
I brought mine to wear with you.
这个努力真的很了不起，但你说过想让我投一两个快球。
This effort is truly impressive, but you said you wanted me to do a fastball or two.
而且你不想让它——
And you didn't want it to be-
她没这么说，J Cal。
She didn't say that, J Cal.
她——
She-
她刚才确实让我至少投一个快球。
She literally just asked me for at least one fastball.
没人会这么说。
No one says that.
我很想看到J Cal投快球。
I would love to get a J Cal fastball.
我没有。
I did not.
好吧，那我们就都问些简单的问题吧。
Okay, so we'll just keep it all softballs.
在你提问之前，请先回来。
Before you ask a question, please come back.
好的。
Yes.
请说吧，Jason。
Go ahead, Jason.
不，我们直接开始吧。
No, we can just go.
我们就问简单的问题。
We'll go softballs.
大家更喜欢简单的问题。
The boys prefer softballs.
请讲。
Go ahead.
不，你先来。
No, go ahead.
我完全是开玩笑的。
I'm totally kidding.
我们这里有Meta，你刚刚支付了史上最大的一笔和解金，仅次于烟草行业，还超过了BP石油。
We have Meta here, and you just paid the largest settlement, second only to the tobacco industry, and just ahead of BP Oil.
这个国家面临过的两大灾难。
Two of the biggest disasters this country ever faced.
而这一次尤其棘手。
And this one is particularly tough.
他们难怪会叫他假新闻。
And they wonder why they call him fake news.
数字是错的，而且——
The numbers are wrong and-
迪娜，如果你愿意的话，我很乐意聊聊Meta眼镜。
Dina, I'm happy to talk about the Meta glasses if you prefer.
我真的很——其实，说真的，我真的很——
I'm so-- Actually, seriously, I'm so-
不，你去读你的有效利他主义——
No. Go read your effective altruism-
不，我其实很高兴你问我这个，因为——
No. I'm actually really glad you asked me about it because-
好吧，不，让我把问题问完。
Well, no, let me finish the question.
你可能不会高兴。
You may not be.
所以，我现在要稍微深入一点，可以这么说。
So, I'm going to lean in now, so to speak.
我觉得，我们很多人对Facebook这个组织真正的疑虑是，这些眼镜确实很棒。
The real, I think, challenge a lot of us have with Facebook as an organization, and these are amazing.
那些视频确实很鼓舞人心，制作也很精良。
The videos are super inspiring and well-produced.
但你们确实对孩子们造成了严重的伤害。
But you guys really did damage, significant damage to children.
你们明知道这些产品太容易让人上瘾。
You knew that these products were too addicting.
而且从公司一开始，查马斯在的时候，理念就是“快速行动，打破常规。”
And the philosophy of the company from the beginning when Chamath was there, "Hey, move fast, break things.
“我们要飞速前进。”
Let's go super fast."
我真心想问的是：Facebook内部的文化到底改变了多少？
My sincere question is: How has the culture changed inside of Facebook?
而且你们现在又在推出一系列可能更容易让人上瘾的新产品，比如基于角色的AI伴侣，还有Muse这个产品。
And you're making a new series of potentially more addicting products with character-based AI companions, with Muse as a product.
所以，我很好奇，组织内部到底有什么变化？你们从那次创纪录的罚款中吸取了什么教训？你们本可以做得更好的地方，又学到了什么？
So, I'm curious, what's changed in the organization, and what did you learn from that record-setting fine and something that is, you could have done a lot better on?
我完全不同意你问题里的每一个前提。
Well, I totally disagree with basically every single premise in your question.
完全没问题。
Totally fine.
我不能就这么算了。
I'm not going to let that stand.
170亿美元的罚款可不是这么说的。
The $17 billion settlement says otherwise.
我能说话吗，还是你那个十分钟的问题已经问完了？
Do I get to speak, or are you done with your 10-minute question?
好。
Okay.
我完全不同意——
I totally disagree-
真够呛。
Spicy
……我不同意这个前提。
... with the premise of that.
有点意思。
Spicy.
我才到那里八个月。
I've only been there eight months.
我在董事会待了一年，我可以告诉你，因为我每天都和这些人一起工作，他们真的非常专注于确保家长有权力，青少年得到支持，而且我对我们刚刚达成的协议感到无比自豪。
I was on the board for a year, and I can tell you because I work with these people every day, they are really, really focused on ensuring that parents are empowered, teens are supported, and I couldn't be actually more proud of the agreement that we just made.
我们和美国及领地的52位两党总检察长一起达成了这个协议。
We made it with 52 bipartisan attorneys general across the United States and the territories.
我们现在正在制定行业标准。
We are now setting industry standards.
我们同意，如果你的州和我们签约，18岁以下（不是16岁）的孩子每天只能在我们平台上待两个小时。
We agreed that if your state signed on with us that children under 18, not 16, can only be on our platform for two hours a day.
之后应用会关闭，晚上也会完全关闭。
The app shuts off after that, and it completely shuts off at night.
上学期间完全没有任何通知，任何类型的都没有。
There are no notifications during the school day at all of any kind.
而且说实话，现在家长们的监督权限大多了。
And frankly, parents have way more supervision now.
他们有很多很多方式来决定孩子用哪些应用、用多长时间、看什么内容。
Many, many ways that they can decide what their kids are on, how long they're on, and what they're seeing.
我觉得我们为此感到自豪，因为如果同行里的其他公司也加入的话，这可能会是历史性的、改变游戏规则的举措。
And I think that we're proud of that because if others in our peer group joined, this could be pretty historic and game-changing.
还有，Jason，我是六个女儿的妈妈，所以这件事对我来说真的很切身。
And Jason, I'm a mom of six daughters, so this is really personal to me.
我看着她们在这一代长大，我觉得我们真的能找到办法团结起来。
I watched them grow up in this generation, and I feel that we really can actually find a way to come together.
你之前说的和解金额数字不对，是因为我们实际上同意额外增加50亿美元，并且如果YouTube、TikTok和Snap加入我们的话，我们愿意把平台使用时间降到每天只有一小时。
The reason your numbers were wrong on the settlement is because we actually agreed to give an additional $5 billion and to go down to only one hour of use on our platform if YouTube, TikTok, and Snap join us.
因为大家都知道，人们会从一个应用转到另一个应用。
Because as we know people leave one set of apps and go to another.
完全同意。
100%.
但如果在美国，18岁以下的孩子每天只能用一个小时的应用程序，晚上还会自动关闭，那岂不是太棒了？
But wouldn't it be pretty amazing in America if Children under 18 could only be on apps for an hour a day-
是的
Yes
……晚上自动关闭。
... shut off at night.
我觉得这就是……
And I just think that's what-
对。
Yes.
完全同意，绝对是的。
100% yes.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你觉得这应该是普遍适用的，Chamath，还是应该由家长来控制？
Do you think it should be universal, Chamath, or do you think it should be controlled by the parent?
比如给家长基本的——
Like give the parent basic-
我觉得——
I think-
这是受控的
It is controlled
……Dina，你怎么看？
... Dina, what's your view?
嗯，它确实是，意思是——
Well, it is, meaning-
……显然家长可以覆盖它，但我们的应用实际上就是会关闭——
... obviously a parent can override it, but our app actually just does turn off-
默认设置，我明白了
Defaults, I see
……默认设置。
... defaults.
当然，家长……
Obviously, a parent...
有意思，我这周末在得克萨斯，看了得克萨斯对俄亥俄州立的那场比赛。
It's funny, I was in Texas this weekend at the Texas, Ohio State game.
你——
You-
哇。
Whoo.
哇。
Whoo.
我的母校。
My alma mater.
真的很有意思。
And it was really funny.
好多人过来跟我说，你知道吗，这个关停，因为确实正在发生，关掉Instagram正在影响大学招生，橄榄球招生。
I had so many people come up to me and say, "You know this turning off," because it's literally happening, "turning off Instagram is hurting college recruiting, football recruiting."
我就说，什么？
I'm like, "What?
你们在说什么？
What are you talking about?"
在德克萨斯，我们把所有孩子的视频都放到Instagram上，然后他们就被招走了。
In Texas, we put all of our kids' videos on Instagram and they get recruited.
哦。
Oh.
所以这挺有意思的。
So it is interesting.
我说，好吧，我们生活在美国。
I said, "Well, we live in America.
那取决于你们自己。
That's up to you.
作为家长，你可以决定要不要继续用，但它确实会自动关闭，家长需要手动解除限制。
You can decide as a parent if you want to do more," but it does actually shut off, and a parent has to override that.
家长——
The parent-
我觉得这太棒了。
I think it's incredible.
我记得和孩子们在餐桌旁，我儿子想给我看个东西，结果他到了使用时间限制，手机就自动关了，什么也看不了。
I remember just being with my kids at the dinner table, and my son was trying to show me something, and he had hit the limit, just turned off, and there's nothing.
我当时就想，这太好了。
And I was like, "This is fantastic."
原因是——
And the reason is-
那你怎么办？
And what do you do?
你会说，就让它关着吗？
You're like, "Leave it off?"
就像——
Like-
那是什么？
What's that?
你会说：“干脆别开了。”
You're like, "Just leave it off."
你根本不在乎。
You don't care.
原因在于，作为家长，这就像打地鼠一样。
The reason is, as a parent, it's Whac-A-Mole.
因为内容在各个平台上同步传播，所以你说得太对了。
Because the content is syndicated across all these platforms, and that's why what you're saying is so right.
当我的儿子，我的孩子们，我的五个孩子去上学时，他们把YouTube当作校外的主要工具，因为很多学校内容和教育内容都在上面。
When my son, when my kids, my five kids go to school, they interact with YouTube as their primary outside of school mechanism because so much of the school content and educational content is there.
所以即使你关掉了短视频和Instagram，它们又会从这边冒出来。
So even if you shut off Shorts and Instagram, they pop up over here.
所以对家长来说，这确实是个打地鼠的问题，管理起来就像全职工作一样。
So it is this Whac-A-Mole problem for parents, and it's a full-time job to manage it.
所以如果这些公司能有效地进行标注并做出治理决策，那对我们这些要上班、要正常生活、要养孩子的人来说，帮助会非常大，能让孩子不至于变成僵尸。
And so if there is effectively a labeling and a decision on governance by these companies, it's deeply helpful for all of us that have jobs or trying to live a life and raise kids normally, so they don't become zombies.
扎克，你在管理孩子手机使用方面非常积极。
Zuck, you're very active managing your kids' mobile phone usage.
你有几个孩子？
How many do you have?
我觉得新的默认设置可能更好。
Look, I think the new defaults probably are better.
我是说，想想我孩子的使用情况，是的，如果一两个小时后就自动关闭，那就太好了。
I mean, just thinking about my kids' usage, yeah, it'd be nice if it turned off after an hour or two.
所以，是的，我觉得那是个改进。
So yeah, look, I think that's an improvement.
我确实得为Meta辩护一下，因为我觉得之前有些指责有点过分，公司被那些成年人起诉，他们怪罪使用这个完全自愿的产品。
I do have to sort of defend Meta because I do think that there was a little bit of a ridiculous pile-on, where the company's getting sued by adults who are blaming the use of this completely voluntary product.
没人强迫你用这些社交网络产品。
No one's forcing you to use any of these social network products.
然后他们生活中出了点事，原因很多，结果他们就去起诉Meta，还拿到了巨额赔偿。
And then something goes wrong in their life that has many causes, and then they're suing Meta and winning big judgments.
然后州检察长也掺和进来，还有那些诉讼律师——
And then the state AGs get in on the act and all the trial lawyers-
还有诉讼律师——
And the trial lawyers-
……还有那些。
... and all that
我觉得诉讼律师拿了一半的钱。
The trial lawyers got half the money, I thought.
所以坦白说，你看。
And so frankly, look.
对。
Yep.
所以——
So-
真是难以置信。
Unbelievable
……我们得承认，这里面也有点敲诈勒索的成分。
... let's just acknowledge that there is a little bit of a shakedown going on here as well.
我是说，面对现实吧——
I mean, let's face it-
……这差不多就是美国法院系统的运作方式。
... that is kind of how the American court system works.
但话说回来，我觉得他们达成的解决方案总体上是利大于弊的，而且我喜欢新的默认设置。
But look, I think that they have reached a resolution that I think is net beneficial, and I like the new defaults.
归根结底，这关乎家长的控制权。
And ultimately, this is about parental control.
家长应该决定孩子用什么应用、怎么用、用多久。
Parents should choose what and how, what apps their kids use and for how long.
这不应该由政府来做。
It should not be the government doing that.
应该由家长来做。
It should be the parents.
迪娜，你能——
Dina, can you-
我们应该尽量让家长操作起来更简单。
And we should just make it as easy as possible for the parents to do it.
在我看来，之所以要设置这些新的默认选项，就是因为打地鼠的问题，有时候确实很难——
And in my view, the only reason to do these new defaults is because of the Whac-A-Mole problem, it is sometimes difficult-
根本不可能。
It's impossible
让家长自己去搞清楚怎么控制这些东西。
... for the parents to figure out how to control this stuff.
很高兴我们能讨论这个话题。
I'm glad we're having this discussion.
我觉得问题在于，整个行业太沉迷于游戏化，把产品设计得让人上瘾，而增加用户在应用上花费的时间，实际上正是Facebook内部关注的重点。
I think the issue for me has been the industry got very addicted to gamification and designing products to be addicting, and increasing time spent on app was, in fact, internally what Facebook was focused on.
挑战在于，你可能会在某件事上做得太好了。
The challenge is, you can be too good at something.
我觉得Facebook，还有YouTube和他们的算法，在让人上瘾这方面做得太好了，不管是大人还是孩子。
And I think Facebook, along with YouTube and their algorithm, were just too good at addicting people to it, whether they're adults or kids.
我要表扬你们，虽然作为组织你们行动得有点晚，但现在你们做了正确的事，并且还带动其他组织也这么做。
And I will commend you, even if it was late as an organization, in doing the right thing now and then leading the other organizations to do the right thing.
好，让我顺着你的话，说一个观点。
Well, let me build on what you're saying with a statement.
我们，萨提亚也谈过这个。
And we, Satya talked about this.
我觉得黄仁勋也会谈这个。
I think Jensen will talk about it.
马斯克也会谈这个。
Elon will talk about it.
但接下来的18个月里，你会反复听到一个词——RSI，也就是递归自我改进。这个概念是说，如果你给AI定义一个函数，一个奖励函数，然后放手让它去跑，它就会自我改进。
But you're going to hear this word RSI over and over, over the next 18 months, recursive self-improvement, which is this idea that if you define a function, a reward function, for an AI and let it go, it's going to self-improve.
所以，杰森，你说得对，不管是《魔兽世界》还是《愤怒的小鸟》还是任何应用，只要把它放进RSI循环里，把奖励函数设为时间，所有这些应用都会泛滥成灾。
So to your point, Jason, anything, whether it's World of Warcraft or Angry Birds or whatever app, you put it into an RSI loop, and you add the reward function being time, all these apps will proliferate.
如果可能的话，Microsoft Word会想方设法让你在上面待上九个小时。
Microsoft Word will keep you there for nine hours if it can.
所以……除非公司像你们一样做出决定，说：“这里有个阈值，超过这个阈值，我们就直接关掉它。”否则就会一直这样，没完没了。
So- ... unless companies make a decision, like you guys, to say, "Here's a threshold, and beyond this threshold, we're just going to turn it off," it's going to be kind of turtles all the way down.
对，这正是我想说的，那这怎么影响未来的产品决策呢？
Yeah, which was my point, is how does it inform product decisions going forward?
你们有了一款很棒的新产品，Muse。
You've got this incredible new product, Muse.
你们也参与了机器人方面的竞争。
You're in the mix on the bots.
但再说一次，我认为你们在领导力和挑战其他组织方面做得很好，这点我要给你们点赞。
But again, I think the leadership and challenging the other organizations is what I will give you kudos for.
我不想猜测——
I don't want to speculate-
但我想聊聊这个上瘾的问题，跟我们在后台试的那个产品有关。
But I want to talk about this addiction thing as it relates to the product that we all tried on backstage.
我们都戴了Meta眼镜。
We all put on a Meta glass.
我以前从没用过这个产品。
And I've never had the product before.
你觉得那个产品的重复使用场景是什么？
What is the repeated use case of that product, do you think?
是什么让人们……因为，对，就是那眼镜。
What is it that gets people... Because, yeah, the glasses.
抱歉。
Sorry.
对，我记得谷歌出过那款眼镜，然后苹果也搞了VR。
Yeah, so I remember when Google had the goggles, and then Apple had VR.
每个人都在尝试往脸上戴点什么，但都没有什么粘性。
And everyone's had an effort at putting something on your face, and none of them have stickiness.
它们都是很有趣的新奇体验，但用着用着就腻了，然后你就把它扔进抽屉里，就像个酷炫的科技古董。
They're all really interesting novelty experiences, and then your usage tapers off, and you kind of put it in the drawer, and it's like a cool tech relic.
它们非常时尚。
They're very stylish.
这些是凯莉·詹娜同款。
These are the Kylie Jenners.
不，实际上，我们对这个产品非常兴奋。
No, actually, we are so excited about this as a product.
工程师们已经为此研发了10年。
The engineers have been working on this for 10 years.
你说得对，如果人们戴上去不好看，不时尚，他们就不会戴。
You make a good point that if people don't look good in them, and they're not stylish, they're not going to put them on.
但几十亿人都在戴眼镜，无论是为了看清东西，还是太阳镜，而且我们对这些功能非常期待。
But billions of people wear glasses, whether they're to see, or obviously sunglasses, and we're really excited about the features.
你当然可以听音乐。
You can obviously listen to music.
我每周听《All In》的唯一方式，就是走路或锻炼时戴着我的Meta眼镜。
The only way I listen to "All In" every week is wearing my Meta glasses as I'm walking or working out.
它们的扬声器真的很棒，所以打电话效果特别好。
They actually have the incredible speaker, and so your phone calls are perfect.
现在我们还有几个特别让人兴奋的功能。
And now we have a couple of features we're really excited about.
对话聚焦。
Conversation focus.
比如，当Chamath和他漂亮的妻子共进晚餐，他真的想听清她说话时，只要他看着她的脸，周围所有噪音都会消失，只剩下她的声音，这真的很酷。
So when Chamath is at dinner with his beautiful wife, and he actually wants to hear her, if he looks at her, all the noise, it goes away except her voice, which is pretty cool.
还有翻译功能。
And then translation.
那太棒了。
That's great.
翻译功能也有。
Translation as well.
我能不能反过来用，当我……
Can I do the opposite when I'm-
查马斯，这挺有意思的。
Chamath, it's interesting.
迪娜，你提到这个很有意思，迪娜。
Dina, it's interesting you bring this up, Dina.
太好了。
Great.
查马斯刚才跟我说……
Chamath was just telling me-
还有更多这样的，更多这样的。
There's more of that More of that
查马斯刚才跟我说，他特意买了新的苹果 AirPods 5，就是为了那个“屏蔽老婆”模式。
... Chamath was just telling me he got the new Apple AirPods 5 specifically because of wife-canceling mode.
正好相反。
It's the opposite.
如果你双击——
If you double-click-
我想要相反的功能。
I want the opposite feature
……你其实可以调进去，但我知道用——
... you can actually tune in, but I know that with-
让我告诉你为什么你错了，而我是对的。
Let me tell you why you're wrong and I'm right.
好的，谢谢大家。
Okay, thanks, guys.
我可能会告诉你——
I might tell you-
顺便说一句，我只想说——对于这些产品，你做也是错，不做也是错，就是说如果你设计得不好，没人会想用。
By the way, I just want to-- With these products, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in the sense that if you design it poorly, no one's going to want to use it.
如果你设计得特别好，而且大获成功，一堆诉讼律师就会说它让人上瘾，然后你就因此被起诉了。
If you design it really well, and it's a big success, a bunch of trial lawyers are going to say it was addictive, and then you get sued for that.
确实如此。
So true.
嗯，你能-
Well, can you-
迪娜，我——哦，抱歉。
Dina, I-- Oh, sorry.
我只是想先转到AI话题一下，在-
I just wanted to move to AI for a second before-
不，我想先把这个问题说完。
No, I want to finish on this.
但现在它已经内置了这种反复使用的场景。
But it has this kind of recurrent use case built into it at this point.
是不是-
Is that-
它——
It-
因为我真的很想知道，这是否会变成——
Because I really want to understand if this becomes-
我们这么多同行都在做可穿戴设备，原因就是我觉得人们确实想融入这个世界。
The reason so many people are working, all of our peers are working on wearables, is because I do think people want to be part of the world.
他们其实不想手里拿着个盒子到处走。
They actually don't want to be holding boxes walking around.
他们真的很想能跟家人说话、拍照、录视频、听音乐，而且全程不用动手。
They actually really want to be able to talk to their family, take a picture, take a video, listen to music, and it be hands-free.
我们有Oakley眼镜，非常适合极限运动，特别酷。
We have Oakleys that are really, really cool for extreme sports.
所以这些应用场景就是日常生活，我想你接下来要放个视频。
So the use cases are just everyday life, and I think you're going to show a video.
让我们惊讶的是，有一个我们没想到的应用场景，就是盲人退伍军人——其实，有人跟我开玩笑说。
The thing that surprised us was one use case that we hadn't anticipated, and that blind veterans-- Actually, somebody was joking with me.
他们说，"你怎么让盲人戴眼镜？
They said, "How are you getting blind people to wear glasses?
这对我来说说不通。"
That doesn't make sense to me."
但我们可以播放这个视频吗？
But can we show this video?
能来到这里真是莫大的荣幸。
It is such an honor to be here.
我们在德克萨斯州奥斯汀的一个退伍军人协会大厅，Meta的伙伴们正和一群了不起的男女坐在一起，他们曾为国家服务，却失去了视力。
We're in Austin, Texas, at a VFW hall where Meta mates are sitting down with amazing men and women who've served our country and who lost their eyesight.
他们刚刚告诉我们，他们觉得自己重新找回了独立，我们非常自豪能送给他们Meta眼镜。
They have just been telling us they feel like they're getting their independence back, and we're so proud to be giving them Meta glasses.
我带他们去了教堂。
I took them to church.
前面屏幕上有经文。
They have the scriptures on the screen in front.
我以前从来读不了那个，但我问了Meta，它一字一句地给我读了出来。
I've never been able to read that, but I asked Meta, and it read it word for word for me.
看到这些了不起的军人和女兵，我们一直在说：“谢谢，谢谢。”
Seeing these extraordinary service men and women, all we've been saying is, "Thank you, thank you."
没有他们，就没有美国。
We don't have America without all of them.
而且，作为一个大惊喜，我们即将把他们介绍给克里斯·斯台普顿。
And as a big surprise, we are about to introduce them to Chris Stapleton.
我只是想过来对你们说声谢谢，感谢你们的服务。
I just want to come by and say thank you for all your service.
我们非常感激你们。
We're so grateful for you.
克里斯·斯台普顿是最棒的。
Chris Stapleton's the best.
他过来加入了我们。
He came and joined us.
那其实是在9/11那天，就在几天前。
It was actually on 9/11, and just a couple of days ago.
我们了解到，一群来自支持他们的组织的盲人退伍军人，和Meta的工程师一起合作，设计了一些特定的功能。
And what we learned is that a group of blind veterans from the organization that supports them came and actually worked with the Meta engineers and designed specific features.
结果很明显，这副眼镜能帮你看东西，还能读给你听。
And it just turns out, obviously, the glasses can see for you and read to you.
我旁边坐着的一位先生戴上眼镜后说：“嘿，Meta，给约翰打电话。”
One of the gentlemen I was sitting next to put the glasses on, and he said, "Hey, Meta, call John."
我当时就坐在那里。
And I was sitting there.
我当然听不到他听到的内容，然后他突然就哭了起来。
I couldn't hear, obviously, what he was hearing, and he just started sobbing.
我就问：“先生，您没事吧？”
And I said, "Is everything okay, sir?"
他说：“这是我第一次独立地给我儿子打电话。”
He said, "That's the first time I've ever called my son on my own independently."
哦，那太酷了。
Oh, that's cool.
哇。
Wow.
所以我们看到了这些使用场景，当然——
So we're seeing these kinds of use cases, of course-
……我们为此感到非常自豪。
... that we're incredibly proud of.
迪娜，你觉得——我想AI为眼镜解锁了——
Dina, do you think that-- I guess AI creates the unlock for the glass-
没错。
Exactly
……这种形态。
... form factor.
这很有道理。
That makes a lot of sense.
我可以——对。
I could-- Yeah.
你觉得眼镜这种形态是不是能让大多数人普遍使用AI，还是说你觉得还有其他更好的形态？
Is that the form factor that you think kind of gets AI in a prevalent way for most people in the world, is the glasses form factor, or is there something else you think?
我相信未来会有很多产品。
I'm sure there will be many products.
我从我们团队学到的是，眼镜确实是个趋势。
I think what I have learned from our team is that glasses are a thing.
人们戴眼镜，而且很多很多人——眼镜价格也实惠。
People wear glasses, and it's something that many, many people-- They're affordable.
而且，显然我们确实下了很大功夫。
And people, obviously, we really worked hard.
马克非常关注，不只是设计，还有重量。
Mark was very focused, not just on the design, but the weight of it.
所以要把技术装进去，同时还要保持时尚和轻便，这很不容易。
So takes a lot to put the technology in here and to still keep it stylish and light.
我觉得那是最-
I think that's the-
你是雷朋的少数股东，对吧？
You're a minority owner of Ray-Ban, no?
是的。
Yes.
或者陆逊梯卡的-
Or of Luxottica-
非常小的一部分，是的。
Very small, yes
……整个公司的。
... of the broad company.
他们是我们的合作伙伴。
They're our partner.
对，我们和他们有独家合作。
Yeah, we have an exclusive with them.
我觉得这就是为什么大家应该重新考虑这类产品，因为从谷歌眼镜开始我就用过，但电池从来就没好使过。
I think that's why people should reconsider these as a product category because I've had them since Google Glass, and the battery never worked.
它们太笨重了。
They were too bulky.
戴着它们看起来像个呆子。
You look like a dork in them.
现在电池好用了，而且你可以控制它们，不是用Siri，Siri还是有点问题，但这个真的能用。
And now the battery works, and because you can control them, not with Siri, which is still kind of broken, but this actually works.
当你和孩子在一起，想滑雪时拍视频，或者想拍照，它真的——把手机挡在中间要打扰得多。
And when you're with your kids, and you want to take videos when you're skiing, or you want to take pictures, it actually-- Putting a phone between you is much more intrusive.
所以我觉得这真的让你融入现实世界，而且翻译功能也非常流畅。
So I think this actually brings you into the real world, and the translation feature is also very slick.
所以你去日本，或者去某个地方，他们用另一种语言跟你说话，它真的能翻译。
So when you go to Japan, or you go somewhere and they're talking to you in another language, it can actually translate.
或者你看到个标志，哇，瞬间翻译，都不用掏出手机。
Or if you see a sign, boom, just instant translation without taking your phone out.
是时候让大家重新考虑这些产品了，特别是基于这些原因。
It's time for people to reconsider these, specifically for those reasons.
谢谢。
Thank you.
不过你用它们用了很长时间，所以你真的很了解。
You've used them a long time, though, so you really know.
电池问题、清晰度问题，就是之前不好用，现在好用了。
The batteries, the battery problem, the fidelity, just they didn't work, and now it does.
对，就是这样。
Yeah, so.
迪娜，说到这周末达里奥的文章，有一个未经证实的报道说，扎克伯格说了类似“我们必须尽可能快”的话。
Dina, just talking about Dario's essay this weekend, there was a report, but it was unverified, that Zuck said something to the effect of, "We need to go as fast as we can."
我不知道那是不是某种假消息。
I don't know if that was kind of misinformation.
不，不。那是一个报道，正好在达里奥的文章发布时出现在推特或X上。
No, no. It was like a report that just hit Twitter at the same time that Dario's, or X, when Dario's thing out.
不过咱们退一步，从整体上看，你是怎么理解那篇文章和监管呼吁的？或者你们是怎么考虑这个问题的？
But just taking a step back broadly, how did you process that essay and the call for regulation, or how are you guys thinking about this?
好的。
Sure.
首先，我非常同意萨蒂亚说的很多内容。
Well, first, I really agree with a lot of what Satya said.
前提和出发点是安全至上，这也是马克一直在强调的。
The premise, the starting point, is that safety is paramount, and that is something that Mark talks about all the time.
我每天都能看到他和亚历克斯·王、马特·弗里德曼，也就是我们实验室的负责人，是如何思考这个问题的，还有整个团队都在关注模型的安全性。
I watch daily how he and Alex Wang and Matt Friedman, who run our lab, think about it, and a whole team of people exist to think about the safety of the models.
我觉得围绕这个问题确实有很多合理的疑问。
And I think that there are very legitimate questions around that.
我认为区别在于马克有着非常不同的看法，而且这种看法是基于他20年来赋能和连接人们的商业模式。
I think the difference is that Mark just has a very different view, and I think that view is based on 20 years of a business model of empowering and connecting people.
每天有36亿人在使用我们的平台。
And that 3.6 billion people are on our platform every single day.
每天有两亿小企业主在经营他们的生意。
200 million small business owners operate their business every single day.
所以他的信念是，这项技术分发得越广，越多的人能拥有超级智能，发挥他们的潜力，获得他们以前想都不敢想的教育和医疗资源，学到以前根本不可能学到的东西，这不仅对每个人更好，对整个社会也更好。
And so his belief is that the more you distribute this technology, the more people that have super intelligence and are able to reach their potential, are able to have access to education and healthcare that they could have never imagined before, learning that they could have never achieved before, is not only better for each of those individuals, but it's better for society as a whole.
所以他在文章《未来属于每个人》里写到的，从根本上就是相信人工智能的普及化实际上会让社会更稳定。
So he fundamentally just believes, when he wrote in his piece, "The Future Is for Everyone," that the democratization of artificial intelligence will actually lead to a more stable society.
这就是他最基本的信念，我觉得他思考的是，那么他的角色是什么，我们的角色是什么？
That is just a fundamental belief that he has, and I think that the thing that he thinks about is so then what is his role, what is our role?
而且我觉得我们非常自豪，我们推出了美国第一个开源模型——
And I think we were extremely proud to have the very first American open-source model-
就在几周前。
... just a few weeks ago.
迪娜，你手头的事情可真不少。
Well, Dina, you've got a lot on your plate.
非常感谢你今天抽空来参加我们的节目。
We really appreciate you taking the time to come and join us today.
我们聊了很多。
We covered a lot.
太棒了。
It was awesome.
谢谢你今天来。
Thank you for being here.
非常感谢你们。
Thank you, guys, so much.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你想走吗？
You want to walk off?
那太棒了。
That was great.
太棒了。
That was great.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。