安德鲁王子被捕，爱泼斯坦神话，里德·霍夫曼档案与萨加尔·恩杰蒂和迈克尔·特雷西

她就是上周站起来抗议帕姆·邦迪的那名女性之一。

She was the one one of the women who also stood up and protested Pam Bondi last week.

所以，萨加尔，如果你真的相信这个人可以被合理地认定为受害者，并以此推动我们 supposedly 正身处其中的全球性恋童危机，那我就不知道了。

So, yeah, Sagar, if you do take at face value that that person can be rightly designated as a victim and fuel and foment this giant worldwide pedophilia crisis that we're supposedly in the midst of, then I don't know.

我的意思是，我认为你智商很高，这可不是社交媒体上随便什么人谈论食人魔那种言论。

I mean, I consider you to have a pretty high IQ, and that's just not some random on social media talking about cannibals.

所以

So

你告诉我，你是否认为这确实是一个正当的受害案例，应该被

you tell me if you agree that's a legitimate case of victimization, and it should be

迈克尔，我觉得你刚刚

Michael, I think you've just

做了这个典型的例子

done this classic example

选择某个人。

of selecting somebody.

听好了。

Look.

我来这里不是为了替每一个所谓的爱泼斯坦受害者辩护，因为顺便说一句，你非常擅长找像丽莎·菲利普斯这样的人，然后试图把所有类似的人都描绘成那样。

I'm not here to defend every so called Epstein victim because, by the way, I think that what you do very expertly is finding people like Lisa Phillips and then par trying to portray all of them of that sort.

你会否认有大量的资金被转移到东欧，用于把女性运来专门从事性交易吗？

Like, would you deny that vast wire transfers, were sent to Eastern Europe to fly in women for the express purposes of sex?

因为这实际上确实是

Because that actually is

成年女性。

Adult women.

好吧。

Okay.

这难道不是犯罪吗，迈克尔？

Is that not a crime, Michael?

你有没有查过《曼恩法案》？

Have you googled the Mann Act?

我的意思是，对于那些真正了解卖淫的人？

I mean, for somebody who has actually looked into prostitution?

我的意思是，我正在说的是，顺便说一句，你还没有认真面对2007年的起诉书草案

I mean, this is what I'm talking about, is that by the way, also, you have not yet grappled with the 2007 draft indictment

我很高兴

I'm happy

来深入讨论这个话题。

to get into it.

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，看啊，不幸的是，我还有未完成的

I mean, look, I have unfortunately have outstand for

那个，萨加尔，我把它发布了。

that and Sagar I Publish it.

等等，各位。

Hold on, guys.

所以萨加尔一开始就告诉我们他只有半小时，是的。

So Sagar told us upfront that he only had half an hour, so Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

你知道，我们没那么多时间。

You know, we don't have that much time.

听着，萨加尔，我再问你几个问题，等萨加尔离开后，迈克尔，我们再让你说说你想说的。

Listen, Sagar, let me ask you a couple other questions and then once Sagar leaves, Michael, we can get you to say what you wanna say.

我想聊聊前几天莱斯·韦斯纳的证词。

I wanna go to the Les Wexner deposition the other day.

从那次证词中，我们具体学到了什么？关于爱泼斯坦是如何起步的？

What did we learn from that, specifically about how Epstein got his start?

我确实觉得，关于这个人是谁、他如何在职业生涯早期就积累了数亿美元、他如何获得这些与情报界的具体联系，这些问题依然存在。

I do think that there are these questions about, again, who this guy was, how did he accumulate hundreds of millions of dollars so early in his career, how did he seem to obtain all these different connections specifically to the intelligence world.

这些问题中有任何得到解决了吗？

Did any of that get resolved?

你对此怎么看？

And what's your take on that?

不是的，大卫。

No, David.

这件事没有得到解决。

It wasn't resolved.

不幸的是，整个 transcripts 并未公开。

Unfortunately, the entire transcript is not public.

根据众议院监督委员会目前公布的信息，莱斯·韦斯纳表示，他从未被联邦调查局或司法部就此案询问过。

What we do know from the House Oversight Committee, at least what's been released now so far, is Leslie Wexner said he was never questioned ever once by the FBI, or the Department of Justice involving this case.

我要说，如果你看看莱斯·韦斯纳的履历，简直非常古怪。

I will say, if you look at the track record of Leslie Wexner, it's incredibly bizarre.

他声称杰夫·蒂恩是个骗子，几十年来骗走了他的钱。

He claims that Jeff Teen was a con man who stole his money for decades.

1991年，我们有那份授权给他权力的文件。

In 1991, we have the power of attorney that was signed over to him.

他声称爱泼斯坦是一个金融天才和奇才。

He claims that Epstein was a financial genius and a wizard.

我们有那栋联排别墅的转让记录，最终在后台完成了一些款项的结算。

We have the transferring of the townhome, which eventually there was some payment that was reconciled on the back end.

但杰弗里·爱泼斯坦对莱斯利·韦斯纳的财务、韦斯纳基金会拥有惊人的控制权，他利用该基金会将资金转给以色列前总理埃胡德·巴拉克，以支持韦斯纳基金会下的多个犹太复国主义事业，包括目前在哈佛大学的韦斯纳奖学金。

But an incredible amount of control that Jeffrey Epstein had over Leslie Wexner's finances, over the Wexner Foundation, which he used to funnel money to Eyud Barak, the former prime minister of Israel, to support many Zionist causes under the Wexner Foundation, including the Wexner Fellowship currently at Harvard University.

我认为我们有必要进一步深入探索这一点。

I do think it's important for us to explore some more of that.

他们关系初期有一些非常奇怪的交易。

There's some very odd dealings with the beginnings of their relationship.

此前的爱泼斯坦关联人士作证称，1992年——也就是在授权书签署之后不久，或者更准确地说，是在爱泼斯坦与韦斯纳建立关系之后——爱泼斯坦的生活方式突然急剧膨胀。

Previous Epstein associates have testified that in 1992, which is shortly after power of attorney and all of that was acquired, or the relationship, sorry, between Epstein and Wexner began, is that much of Epstein's lifestyle exploded.

韦斯纳甚至不否认爱泼斯坦对他财务拥有巨大控制权，甚至声称自己被杰弗里·爱泼斯坦盗取了钱财，他们之间的关系据称在2007年左右结束。

Wexner does not even dispute that Epstein had vast control over his finances, and even claims that he was stolen from by Jeffrey Epstein, that their relationship is supposed to have ended sometime, I think, in 2007.

但他至今尚未在公开场合回答有关这段关系的问题，仅发布过一份书面声明。

But he has not yet answered questions about this relationship in an open public forum beyond some statements, and he currently did issue an opening statement for the record.

我本人希望看到这份 transcripts 的公开。

I personally would like to see the release of that transcript.

我的意思是，在这个特定案例中，透明度非常重要。

I mean, all for transparency here in this particular case.

他是一位88岁的老人，我真的觉得这非常古怪。

He's an 88 year old man, and I do think it's genuinely bizarre.

更别提模特行业了，你知道的，Wexner本人也涉足过这个行业。

Oh, and not to even mention the modeling industry, which, you know, which Wexner himself was involved in.

还有几封邮件，包括Wexner自己在Epstein生日簿上画的粗俗插图，内容涉及胸部，他说这正是Epstein唯一想要的东西。

And there's several emails, including Wexner's own crude drawing in the Epstein birthday book involving boobs, that he said that's all Epstein ever wanted.

他们的关系很古怪，持续了数十年。

So their relationship is bizarre, goes back decades.

正如我所说，Wexner坚称自己被欺骗了，而且被偷走了财产。

Wexner maintains, as I said, that he was conned, and that he was stolen from.

我对这个说法不太相信。

I don't really believe much of that story.

迈克尔，你和我已经阅读了数千封爱泼斯坦的邮件。

Michael, you and I have now read thousands of Epstein emails.

这里面根本没有复杂的金融工具。

There's no sophisticated financial instruments going on.

甚至从杰弗里·爱泼斯坦最初声称自己管理资金时起，几乎所有的说法都经不起推敲，大卫，你是个超高净值人士。

Even back to the very beginnings of, Jeffrey Epstein's claims here about managing money, almost none of it passes the smell to David, you're a very high net worth individual.

你可以去高盛或其他许多金融机构，雇用专业团队为你管理资金，处理那些普通人接触不到的复杂金融工具。

You can go to Goldman Sachs or many other financial houses and get teams of people to manage money for sophisticated financial instruments and others not available to the rest of us.

你把财务交给杰弗里·爱泼斯坦，这会非常奇怪。

It'd be very odd for you to turn

把你的

over your

财务交给杰弗里·爱泼斯坦，这会非常奇怪。

finances to to Jeffrey Epstein.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他职业生涯的起点，我想是在贝尔斯登。

So he he began his career, I guess, at Bear Stearns.

我想他在那里待的时间很短，他一个有趣的地方是，他在大约20岁时从大学退学了。

I guess it was a brief stint where he worked I guess he one of the curious things about him is he dropped out of college around the age 20.

我想他当时在学数学。

I guess he was studying math.

然后他曾在道尔顿学校当了一年老师。

He then was a teacher at the Dalton School for, like, a year.

没错。

Correct.

之后他在贝尔斯登工作了四年？

And then he worked at Bear Stearns for four years?

他通过道尔顿学校认识了艾斯·格林伯格。

He met Ace Greenberg through the Dalton School.

格林伯格的某个孩子——我想是其中一个——在那里上学，之后他就去了贝尔斯登。

Greenberg's I think it was it was either one of his children was there, and then he went to Bear Stearns.

他在贝尔斯登工作几年后被解雇，也就是从那时起，他陷入了我所说的黑暗深渊，他在洗钱方面的专长正是在此时得到磨练，这一点从当时的记录和与他共事的人的证词中可见一斑，包括伪造护照、伊朗门事件、武装走私等我所列举的一切。

He's fired from Bear Stearns after a couple of years, and that's when his descent into what I call, like, the darkness, his expertise in money laundering, I believe that that's when it was honed as reflects in the record and the testimony of the people who dealt with him there at the time, including the false passport, Iran Contra, armed smuggling, and all of that that I've laid out.

我能问你个简单的问题吗？

So can I ask you a quick question?

因为我知道你很快就要走了。

Because I know you have to go soon.

是的。

Yes.

我真的很想知道，你是否同意托马斯·马西的说法？

I'm I'm honestly curious if you would agree with the statement from Thomas Massey.

这是来自……

This is from Okay.

2月16日。

February 16.

他说：‘我们正在揭露 Epstein 全球性侵网络的规模，以及它如何触及我们的政府和贵族阶层。’

He says, quote, we're exposing the extent of Epstein's global pedophile ring and how it touches our government and aristocracy.

那么，你认为‘我们所知的、甚至可能仍在持续的事件’构成一个‘全球性恋童团伙’这一说法在事实上成立吗？

So do you think it's a factually valid statement that what we know to have taken place and maybe even is still ongoing is a, quote, global pedophile ring?

我的意思是，当你谈到所谓的‘全球性恋童团伙’时，你指的是马西的说法吗？

Well, I mean, when what you're asking about a global pedophile ring is This is Massey.

抱歉？

Well sorry?

这是托马斯·马西说的。

This is Thomas Massey saying.

是的。

Yeah.

托马斯·马西所说的‘全球性恋童团伙’，指的是那些似乎知情并可能参与虐待未成年人的全球精英圈子。

Thomas Massey, a global pedophile ring is a ring of global elites who seemed aware and perhaps participated in the abuse of underage children.

现在，迈克尔，我承认这一点。

Now, Michael, I will grant you this.

而且我尊重

And what I respect

你这个说法。

you the statement.

嗯，不。

Well, no.

我承认这一点。

I will grant you this.

我认为你擅长分析许多受害者和其他人提出的实际具体主张。

What I think you do well is to parse the actual individual claim of many of the victims and others that are out there.

实际上，我认为你在这一生态系统中扮演着很好的角色，尤其是在驳斥一些最低智商的内容方面，就像你对那个酷刑视频所做的那样。

And I actually think you have a great role in this ecosystem for debunking, especially some of the lowest IQ content, which is out there, like you did with the torture video.

所以，我想感谢你做了这些。

So I do wanna appreciate you for doing that.

那只是唾手可得的成果。

That was low hanging fruit.

我的意思是，我不太认同那种说我只关注低智商社交媒体喷子的观点。

I mean, I don't really appreciate this idea that I only focus on low IQ social media blaster.

迈克尔·布莱克。

Michael Black.

我深入研究了这一事件的所有法律细节。

I've delved very deeply into the legal minutiae of all this saga.

是的。

Yes.

我知道你研究过。

I know you have.

杰弗里·爱泼斯坦几乎在所有媒体和每一位政客口中都被随意地称为恋童癖。

Jeffrey Epstein is just casually called a pedophile virtually everywhere in the media and among every politician

并没有阻止你的任何批评。

not stop any of your criticism.

他被抚养长大的方式。

What he was raised.

但你的批评，迈克尔，是说

But your criticism, Michael, is that

实际上他是个

actually he was an

恋童癖，因为他喜欢青春期前后的14岁女孩。

abelophile because he liked pre post pubescent 14 year

女孩。

old girls.

奇怪的是，尽管过去这些年媒体投入了巨大的资源报道这个故事——报纸、杂志、播客、Netflix专题片，等等，我猜我是唯一一个真正去查阅佛罗里达州法院案卷、调出2008年6月他认罪听证会记录的人，当时他承认了两项州级卖淫指控。

Bizarre that for all the enormous media resources that have been poured into this story over the past however many years, newspapers, magazines, podcasts, Netflix specials, you name it, I guess I'm the only one who ever thought to actually go into the Florida court docket and pull up the transcript of the plea hearing in June 2008 when he entered his two guilty pleas his guilty plea in Florida for two state level prostitution charges.

而他却被反复称为‘有罪的恋童癖’。

And he's called a convicted pedophile ad nauseam.

结果发现，在那次认罪听证会上被列为唯一一名被他拉去卖淫的未成年人，实际上年满17岁。

It turns out the sole minor victim who was cited in that plea hearing as the sole minor to whom he procured for prostitution was literally 17 years old.

是的，迈克尔。

Yes, Michael.

我明白，因为他们选了起诉书中年龄最大的那个人来认罪，而2007年草拟的起诉书中确实提到了一名14到15岁的未成年人。

I understand that because they picked the oldest person in the indictment to plead guilty to, and there's a fourteen fifteen year old, which is named in the 2007 draft indictment,

这份文件已经公开了。

which was released.

迈克尔，我正在关注一份联邦文件。

Michael, you're focusing I'm I am focusing on a federal document.

有一份联邦文件明确指控一名14岁和一名15岁的未成年人遭受性侵，包括询问一名15岁少年是否如此。你读过2007年的草案吗？

There's a federal document which specifically alleges a 14 and 15 year old who are abusing, including asking a 15 year old if there is this 2007 draft, you have read it and

我知道你想要他的决定性证据？

I know you're take his dispositive?

好吧，我不会。

Well, I'm not gonna okay.

不幸的是，它从未被

Unfortunately, it was never Do

从未被

it was never

因为认罪协议的达成，此事最终未被质疑。

contested because of the plea agreement, which eventually came forward.

我的意思是，我觉得你用的是艾伦·德肖维茨在辩护中采用的相同策略。

I mean, I think you're using the same tactic Alan Dershowitz did in his defense.

不幸的是，我必须

Unfortunately to do with I have to

和德肖维茨有关，或者我不认同他的战术手段。

do with Dershowitz, or I don't share his tactical maneuvers.

不幸的是，我得带我的孩子去看医生，这更重要。

I unfortunately have to take my child to a doctor's appointment That's more important.

正如我之前指出的，这件事拖得太久，从一开始就是这样。

As I flagged too long to do and in the beginning of this entire thing.

而且我确实想

And I do wanna

同时，萨加尔，你总体上是本着诚意在处理，不像很多人只是跟风炒作这个故事，你还愿意就实质内容进行交流。

say operating in good faith as well, Sagar, for the most part, unlike a lot of people who have glommed on to this story, and you're willing to, you know, engage on the substance.

因此，这一点我非常感激。

So that, again, is appreciated by me.

而且，只要你愿意继续交流，我随时都在。

And, you know, whenever you'd like to engage further, I'm always available.

好的，迈克尔。

Alright, Michael.

谢谢你的邀请，大卫。

Thank you, David, for the invitation.

是的。

Yes.

谢谢你前来，萨加尔。

Thank you for coming, Sagar.

非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

好的。

Alright.

那么，迈克尔，让我重新梳理一下。

So, Michael, let me kinda reset here.

好的。

Okay.

我不确定你有没有机会详细阐述一下你所说的‘爱泼斯坦神话’。

I'm I'm not sure you've had a chance to kind of lay out your case for what you called Epstein mythology.

对。

Yep.

所以我想给你一个机会，直接阐述你的观点：当前发生的事情实际上是一种道德恐慌或狂热浪潮，一种歇斯底里的表现。

So I wanna give you a chance to kind of just lay out your thesis here that what's happening is actually a type of moral panic or feeding frenzy, a type of hysteria.

你把它比作塞勒姆女巫审判。

You've compared it to the Salem witch trials.

对。

Yep.

上世纪八十年代还发生过整个达克儿童虐待案。

There was also the case in the nineteen eighties of the whole Dacre child abuse.

撒旦恐慌。

Satanic panic.

撒旦教

Satanic

这真的是恐慌吗？

this a real panic?

这就是它的名字吗？

Is that what it's called?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为有数百人因此入狱或被起诉。

Where I think hundreds of people went to jail or were prosecuted for that.

结果发现

It turned out

不确定是不是几百人，但确实如此。

don't if it was hundreds, but Yeah.

足以构成严重的司法不公。

More than enough to make it a extreme miscarriage of justice.

所以这就是你所做的比较。

So that's the comparison you've made.

因此，我想请你清晰地阐述一下这个观点，因为我不确定你是否已经有机会充分说明这一点。

So I guess I wanna let you lay out that case in a clear way because I'm not sure that you've had a chance to quite do that yet.

我的意思是，我确实在许多其他场合和平台上已经详细阐述过这个观点，但可能在这档播客里还没讲过。

I mean, I definitely laid out my case on this score in many other venues and on many other occasions, but I guess not on this particular podcast yet.

所以我很乐意简要梳理一下。

So I'm happy to sketch it out.

就撒旦恐慌这个类比而言，除非最近出现了新情况，否则我本来不太会主动提起这个说法——因为现在神话中又增添了一层新内容，那就是埃普斯坦邮件文件的公布，人们通过阅读邮件片段来解读其中关于食人或骇人听闻的儿童献祭的隐晦信息。

In terms of the satanic panic parallel, that's not one that I would have necessarily been most inclined to bring up until recently Just because there's now this new layer of the mythology that's added been added with the production of these Epstein quote files where people are reading snippets of emails to signify some kind of coded messaging around cannibalism or around grotesque child sacrifice.

但在这些海量邮件发布之前，埃普斯坦事件本身并没有太多这样的特征。

That really wasn't a hallmark of the Epstein story so much before this enormous tranche of emails were released.

这与撒旦恐慌的狂热有关，因为在上世纪八十年代，人们曾指控存在诸如骇人听闻的儿童献祭、婴儿残害、用幼儿血液沐浴等最恐怖的场景，而这些指控被当局严肃对待，导致如你所言，不少人被判处多年监禁。

And it relates to the satanic panic frenzy insofar as claims around such things as, like, truly grotesque child sacrifice, mutilation of infants, you know, bathing toddlers in blood, like, all the most nightmarish scenarios you could possibly dream up were alleged in the nineteen eighties and taken deadly seriously by the authorities, resulting in, as you alluded to, a good number of people actually being thrown in prison for many years.

但后来发现，这完全是一场巨大的骗局。

And it was it was found to be just a gigantic hoax.

但或许一个更贴切的类比，即使在最新文件公布之前就已经成立，是上世纪八十年代的撒旦恐慌最终被证实起源于一位精神严重失常、妄想症患者，她需要被强制收治，但她却声称发生了儿童性虐待，而当局却对此予以认可。

But not maybe a more apt parallel that also would have been apt even before this latest record production is that the satanic panic frenzy of the nineteen eighties was ultimately concluded to have originated really with one woman who was just straightforwardly mentally ill, delusional, needed to essentially be institutionalized, and yet she would make claims about sex child sex abuse that the authorities countenanced or gave credence to.

而关于爱泼斯坦的神话，也正在发生类似的情况。

And there's a similar thing going on with the Epstein mythology.

当我提到爱泼斯坦的神话时，我并不是在谈论2008年2月佛罗里达州的不起诉协议，或者萨格之前零星提及的整个情境。

Now when I mention the Epstein mythology, I'm not talking about the 02/2008 Florida non prosecution agreement or that whole scenario that Sager brought up in piecemeal before.

那是这个故事中另一个不同的部分。

That's a different element of this whole story.

这个神话是在后来，主要在2014年左右，随着弗吉尼亚·罗伯茨·盖弗里及其律师布拉德利·爱德华兹、保罗·卡塞尔，以及后来的大卫·博伊斯提出的新指控而发展起来的。她声称自己曾被全球性贩卖为儿童性奴，并且知道爱泼斯坦通过勒索来维持这一儿童性交易网络。

The mythology developed later, mostly around 2014 with the introduction of these new claims by Virginia Roberts Goufrey and her lawyers, Bradley Edwards, Paul Cassell, later David Boies, in which she alleged that she had been child sex trafficked around the world and that she knew that Epstein enforced this child sex trafficking operation via blackmail.

她还对三名具体人物提出了明确指控：艾伦·德肖维茨、安德鲁王子和约翰·卢克·布鲁内尔。

And also she made specific allegations against three particular individuals, Alan Dershowitz, Prince Andrew, John Luke Brunel.

此外，她还指控了一类泛指的知名权贵人士，但未具体点名，声称他们也侵害过她，比如首相、政客和总统等等。

And then also, she accused a generic category of other high profile pryled persons who she didn't specify as also victimizing her like prime ministers and politicians and presidents and so forth.

因此，这基本上就是我所称的‘神话’的起源，它与最初发生在棕榈滩的那起地方性犯罪相比，完全是另一个量级的事件。

So that's the basically, the origin of what I would call the mythology, which is just sort of a different order or magnitude than the initial Palm Beach prosecution, which was effectively a local crime.

但就与撒旦恐慌的类比而言，弗吉尼亚·罗伯茨·斯卡弗雷是一位严重精神失常、心理不健康的人，她却被认可、合法化，如今甚至被奉为真理的殉道者，然而，如果任何人稍加审慎地审视她的指控，就会发现她根本不能被如此轻信地对待。

But in terms of the parallel to the satanic panic, Virginia Roberts Scufray was a profoundly disturbed mentally unwell person who was validated and legitimized and now continues to be celebrated as some kind of martyr for truth, even though if anybody had used a lick of discernment about as to her claims, it would have been found that she could not be treated so credulously.

也许她需要一些帮助，但认为她会成为引发全球性丑闻、震动多个国家的基础，这简直荒谬至极。

Maybe she needed some help, but this idea that she would be the basis for this global scandal that's rocking all these countries is just outrageous.

还有另外两名精神失常的女性，我这样说并非带有贬义或侮辱之意。

And there are two others who are two other mentally ill women, and I don't say that even to be pejorative or derogatory at all.

这仅仅是客观事实，只要你仔细看看就能明白。

It's just objectively true if you take a look.

玛丽亚·法默就是其中另一位明显精神失常的人，例如，她提出或在推动这一说法中起了关键作用：爱泼斯坦在所有卧室和浴室都安装了摄像头，秘密录制名流，以便用于勒索。

Maria Farmer is one of these other definitely mentally ill persons who, for example, introduced or was integral in introducing this idea that Epstein had cameras set up in all his bedrooms and bathrooms and was surreptitiously recording prominent people so he could use it for blackmail.

另一个是莎拉·兰索姆，她很大程度上推动了围绕该岛屿的神话发展。

And then another one, Sarah Ransom, was one of the people who spurred the mythology in large part around the island.

因此，她在经历数次精神健康危机后声称，自己曾在岛上遭到系统性强奸，但当她最终必须具体说明这一说法时，

So she came to claim after going through several mental health crises that she had been systematically raped at the island even though when she actually had to eventually give that position.

她实际上根本没描述过任何类似的事情。

She really described nothing of the sort.

她去岛屿时已经是成年人，而且是自愿前往的，她描述的是一次本质上双方同意的、轻微的性接触，但事后她极大地夸大了这件事，而人们并不知道。

She was also an adult when she went to the island voluntarily, and she described what was effectively a consensual, you know, minor sexual encounter with Epstein, but she dramatized it radically in the wake, and people don't know.

我的意思是，大卫，你知道吗？或者公众知道吗？尽管包括罗·康和托马斯·马西等人在内，所有人都声称美国维尔京群岛上的那座私人岛屿是‘强奸岛’或‘恋童岛’，但事实上，从未发现过任何可信的关于该岛上发生过强奸的指控？

I mean, David, did you know this, or does anybody know that the public know that despite everybody and their mother, including, like, Roe Conn and Thomas Massey at all, declaring that the Epstein property in The US Virgin Islands, the private island, that it's rape island or pedophile island, that there's never been a credible allegation of rape ever discovered that that take that took place on that island?

这广为人知吗？还是我疯了？

Like, is that well known, or am I crazy?

不知道。

No.

没人知道。

It's not well known.

我之所以知道，是因为我听过你在几个播客里的发言，所以我觉得有必要请你来作为对立观点。

The only reason I knew is because I've heard you on a couple of podcasts, so I thought it was important to get you on as a counterpoint.

关于这三位女性，她们确实去过那座岛。

So just with respect to these three women, they did go to the island.

这是真的吗？

Is is that true?

莎拉·兰索姆去过。

Sarah Ransom did.

好的。

Okay.

玛丽亚·法默没有。

Maria Farmer no.

玛丽亚·法默自称是第一个指控埃普斯坦的人，她被视为一位伟大的英雄举报者，因为她早在其他女性受害之前就试图发出警告。

Maria Farmer is the one who purported that she was actually the original Epstein accuser, and she was this great hero whistleblower because she tried to sound the alarm way before all these other females were abused.

她声称，1996年，当时她25岁，是埃普斯坦纽约宅邸前厅的员工，她受邀并接受了邀请，前往莱克西·韦克斯纳在俄亥俄州的庄园，以艺术家驻留的身份工作，因为她是一名画家。

She claims that in 1996, after she had been a 25 year old employee of Epstein's who basically sat at his front desk in his New York townhouse, that she was invited and accepted, to go to the Ohio compound of Lexley Wexner to be an artist in residence of sorts because she was a paint a painter.

随后，她声称在与埃普斯坦和麦克斯韦的互动过程中，她曾提交过第一份警方报案，并去找了联邦调查局。

And then she claimed that over the course of her interactions with Epstein and Maxwell, she ended up filing a first attempted police report and then went to the FBI.

但她从未明确说明她向联邦调查局具体报告了什么内容，只是讲述了一个故事，称埃普斯坦 allegedly偷走了她拍摄的未成年妹妹们的照片，以便用这些照片来绘制她们的裸体画作。

And she never really specified what it is that she claimed that she reported to the FBI with any clarity, but she told this tale about how Epstein had supposedly stolen these photographs that she had produced of her younger sisters who were below the age of 18, so that she could use those photographs to paint paintings of her younger sisters in the nude.

不过，我不确定。

Now, I don't know.

我的意思是，我想这算是承认制作儿童色情内容了，但严格来说，你知道的。

I mean, I guess that's a confession to production of child pornography, but technically speaking, but you know.

但这就是她的说法，她还补充说，她曾被埃普斯坦和麦克斯韦性侵、虐待或强奸。

But that's what she claimed, and then she also added that she had been sexually assaulted or abused or raped by both Epstein and Maxwell.

在那次性侵过程中，26岁的她突然有了某种神圣的启示，意识到他们两人都是恋童癖。

And somehow over the course of that assault, at age 26, she had like a divine revelation literally and realized that they were both pedophiles.

这是她在多年后回忆此事时的说法。

This is how she recounted it years after the fact.

如果你查看警方或联邦调查局当时的接案记录或备案的投诉文件，

And if you look at the police that FBI intake report or the complaint that was memorialized that has come out in terms of the what was contemporaneously documented.

她根本没提到任何性侵事件。

She mentions nothing about a sexual assault.

她完全没有提及任何性犯罪。

She mentions nothing about any kind of sex crime at all.

她只是声称自己的这些照片被偷走了，但从未有任何证据表明这些照片真的被偷过。

She simply claims that these photos of hers were stolen, and there's never been any evidence that those photos were actually stolen.

所以这是一个人，而她和这三位女性——兰索姆、法默、古夫拉·罗伯茨——在这一神话的各个层面都扮演了关键角色。

So that's one person, and she's come these and these three women, Ransom, Farmer, Goufra Roberts Goufrae, were all integral in different dimensions of the mythology.

她们是多项重要诉讼中的关键原告。

They were incredibly important named plaintiffs in critical litigation.

基于她们的指控，各地启动了多项刑事调查，但她们全都严重精神失常、行为怪异，完全不可信；如果我们打算构建一个以她们的指控为基础的国际性恋童癖集体歇斯底里叙事，那我们就已经进入了一个幻想世界，因为这种叙事在未来根本经不起任何理性重审或 scrutiny。

Criminal investigations were launched on the basis of their claims in various respects, and they're all just profoundly mentally ill, erratic, and wholly unreliable to the degree that if we're going to have an international pedophilic mass hysteria narrative that's at all predicated on their claims, then we've entered into a fantasy land because it will never in the future hold up to any kind of rational reevaluation or scrutiny at all.

好的。

Okay.

所以罗伯特·斯库弗尔，或者你称她为VRG，是的。

So Robert Scufre or or VRG as Yeah.

正如你在你的Substack中称呼她的那样，是的。

As I think you've called her in your substack Yeah.

她是什么时候站出来讲述她的故事的，是的。

When did she come forward with her Yeah.

她的故事？

Her story?

因为我是那部关于爱泼斯坦的Netflix电影或纪录片《肮脏的财富》的基础。

Because I was the basis of that Netflix movie or documentary called Filthy Rich about about Epstein.

你说的是，那件事发生在2008年整个事件之后，对吧。

You're saying that that happened after the whole 2008 Yeah.

棕榈滩。

Palm Beach.

是的。

Yeah.

我会解释一下。

I'll I'll I'll explain.

顺便说一句，就在今年夏天，当爱泼斯坦事件再次被热议时，《肮脏的财富》在Netflix上的播放量飙升，重新回到了排行榜前列。

By the way, Filthy Rich, which, over this past summer when the Epstein Fuhrer kinda got reignited, it like skyrocketed like the one of the, know, the top of the charts on Netflix once again.

因此，这部商业宣传片在很大程度上决定了人们对这一问题的看法。

So that little piece of commercial commercial propaganda has been very determinative in terms of how people have had their perception shaped of this issue.

我认为，这简直就是赤裸裸的宣传，因为它被刻意设计成一个公关工具，用于为所谓的受害者及其律师制造公众声浪，推动对爱泼斯坦同谋者——更准确地说，是对他的遗产——采取某种补救措施。

And it is like literal propaganda, I would argue, in the sense that it was concocted as a PR vehicle for the, quote unquote, victims and especially their lawyers to create a public clamor for some kind of remedial action to be taken against Epstein's coconspirators or more more more relevantly his estate.

这是一次精心策划的行动。

It was it was a maneuver.

这是与该纪录片制作方合作的律师团队所进行的一次公关操作。

Was a PR maneuver by a legal team who worked alongside the producers of that documentary.

正如围绕爱泼斯坦事件所生产的大量大众娱乐产品一样。

As it has has had been so much of the mass market entertainment products that have been produced around the Epstein affair.

它仅呈现了所谓受害者的单一视角，而这一视角由他们的律师精心塑造，形成了一种经过净化的幸存者叙事，并已成为主流叙事。

It's only taken from that one perspective of the purported victims, and that perspective is shaped very carefully by their lawyers to create this sanitized survivor narrative that is now the predominant one.

但就她的背景而言，是的。

But in terms of her origins, yes.

她最初在2010年9月左右，可能更早到2008年，以简·多伊的身份提起了民事诉讼。

She initially filed some civil litigation around, I want to say, 09/2010, maybe o eight, as a Jane Doe.

可能是2011年，大概在这个时间段。

Maybe maybe 2011, somewhere in that range.

最初是以简·多伊的身份，意味着她在诉讼中并未公开姓名。

As first as a Jane Doe, meaning she wasn't named in the litigation.

这与她大约在2002年2月期间与爱泼斯坦有所关联的时期有关。

And this related to a period of around 02/2002 when she was in the Epstein orbit to some extent.

有证据表明她确实曾某种程度上处于爱泼斯坦的圈子中。

And there's there's evidence that she was in the Epstein orbit to some extent.

她并没有虚构一切。

She's not hallucinating everything.

我认为她并不太像是个骗子，我不会这么说。

I've argued that I would she's not so much a liar, I wouldn't say.

我从未直接指控她故意撒谎。

Like, I've never directly accused her of lying about anything as such.

我曾说过，她某种程度上构建了一个替代现实。

I've called I've said that she's kind of confabulated an alternate reality.

这略有不同，因为它并不必然意味着蓄意欺骗。

And that's a little bit different because it doesn't necessarily connote willful deceits.

如果你仔细想想，这甚至更令人不安。

And it's almost even more disturbing if you think about it.

但你这么认为的依据是什么？

But What's your basis for that?

最重要的一个点，我认为是你觉得她撤回了关于德肖维茨的指控？

The big one, I guess, is that in your view that she recanted her story about Dershowitz?

或者

Or

是的。

Yeah.

她撤回的不只是关于德肖维茨的指控。

She recanted her story not just about Dershowitz.

这可能是她撤回最著名主张的最广为人知的例子，而这一切之所以发生，是因为德肖维茨异常积极地通过一场旷日持久的诉讼，对抗顶尖律师团队，寻求某种解决方式。

That's maybe the most well known instance of her recanting one of her marquee claims, and it really only came about because Dershowitz was unusually motivated to actually pursue some sort of resolution through a very protracted litigation process against very high powered lawyers.

这里的一个谬误在于，这些所谓的幸存者，比如弗吉尼亚，被看作是完全无力、备受压迫的受害者。

I mean, one of the fallacies here is that these survivors, quote unquote, such as Virginia are taken to be these beleaguered victims, etcetera, who had no power at all in this dynamic.

然而，事实上，她们由全国最强大、最出色的律师代表，比如大卫·博伊斯，他是最著名的律师之一，且拥有极其雄厚的资源。

And yet, mean, they were represented by some of the most powerful and skillful lawyers in the country, such as David Boyce, who's like one of the best known lawyers of all time and was hugely well resourced.

而且，你知道，弗吉尼亚·居弗雷变得极其富有。

And also, you know, Virginia Gufre became incredibly wealthy.

也许没有你那么有钱，大卫，但据估计，她的财富在15亿到250亿美元之间。

Maybe not as wealthy as you, David, but, you know, 20 estimates range from, like, $15.20, $25,000,000,000.

很难确定，因为很多和解细节都是保密的。

It's hard to know because a lot of the settlement details are secret.

所以，她并不是一个毫无依靠、毫无立足之地的无助受害者。

So it wasn't just this hapless victim who had nothing no leg to stand on in order to make her claims.

但确实，德肖维茨，她最终撤回了她的指控。

But, yeah, Dershowitz, she ended up recanting her allegations.

请记住，这不仅仅是她某时某刻偶然提出了一些指控，可能只是闲聊中随口一说。

And bear in mind, it wasn't just that she, you know, happened to level some accusation at some point, maybe in, like, casual banter.

而是她声称自己至少六七次遭到德肖维茨的性侵。

It's that she made allegations of herself having been victimized by Dershowitz sexually on at least six or seven occasions.

她对每一次受害经历都进行了生动、详细、近乎骇人的描述，包括德肖维茨的身体部位、性偏好等等。

And she described each individual instance of that victimization in vivid, graphic, almost grotesque detail describing Dershowitz's body parts, sexual proclivities, etcetera.

她是在宣誓 affidavit 和作证笔录中做出这些陈述的。

And she did this in sworn affidavits and under deposition.

因此，理论上她甚至可能面临伪证指控，如果检察官愿意提起的话——当然，在这种环境下，他们根本不会这么做。

So could theoretically even be subject to perjury charges should a prosecutor ever been have been inclined to bring them, which of course they wouldn't have been in this environment.

但事情还远不止如此。

And but it goes much further.

她不得不撤回对哈佛教授史蒂文·科斯林的指控，她声称曾与他发生过性关系。

She had to recant claims against a Harvard professor, Steven Cosslin, who she claims she had intercourse with.

她甚至撤回了对约翰·卢克·布鲁内尔的指控，他是这个故事中的另一位人物，这促使人们推测存在一个所谓的国际性交易网络，因为他是一位模特经纪巨头。

She recanted even claims against John Luke Brunell, who's another actor or a player in this whole story that leads people to make their postulations about there being this supposedly international sex trafficking ring because he was like a modeling mogul.

但在爱泼斯坦本人于2019年被联邦起诉和逮捕后，他受到美国施压，被法国当局逮捕。

But he ends up getting arrested by French authorities under pressure from The US in 2019 after Epstein himself was federally indicted and arrested.

鉴于法国法律体系的复杂性——我至今仍不完全理解它与美国法律体系的差异——他在正式指控提出前已被羁押了相当长的时间。

And given the vagaries of the French legal system, which I don't fully comprehend still in relation to The United States, he was in custody or incarcerated for quite a long time prior to any formal charges being brought.

最终，2021年，她被从澳大利亚召至巴黎，以一种在美国从未发生过的形式提供证据，指控约翰·卢克·布鲁内尔：在这种形式下，控辩双方都能直接向证人提问或进行对话。

Eventually, she's called to provide evidence against Virginia is called from Australia to go to Paris to provide evidence against John Luke Brunel in 2021 in this format that is nothing that takes place in The US, but it's like where the both the defense and the prosecution have an ability to question or have colloquies with the accuser.

她最终也不得不撤回对他的指控。

And she ends up having to retract her claims against him as well.

你知道，她的律师不得不承认，她在2011年和2012年撰写的这本回忆录或回忆录手稿，实际上是与一位潜在的合作者——《每日邮报》的记者莎伦·丘彻——合谋策划的。

And, you know, they though her lawyers had to admit that this memoir that she produced or memoir memoir manuscript that she produced in 2011 and 2012 that she was sort of scheming with this ghost writer who was potentially going to work with her, Sharon Churcher, a journalist at the Daily Mail.

她一直在策划如何获得最大可能的图书合约，甚至可能是电影合约或其他娱乐打包协议。

She was scheming about how they could get the biggest possible book deal or even like a movie deal or some kind of entertainment package deal.

她已经从《每日邮报》获得了十六万美元以上的报酬，再加上因接受采访并提供安德鲁王子照片而获得的连载收入。

And she already had been paid a 160,000 plus by the Daily Mail, plus serialization revenue for having done an interview with them and given over the Prince Andrew photo.

然后，他们希望利用《每日邮报》2011年报道所引发的舆论热度来推动这本书的出版。

And then they wanted to marshal or leverage that momentum publicity wise from the Daily Mail's articles in 2011 into a book.

因此，在这段电子邮件往来中——你可以去阅读，它在诉讼中被公开了——丘彻说：‘嘿，你知道吗？'

And so Chircher in this email exchange, you can go read it, it came out in litigation, says, hey, yeah, you know what?

随便把任何你想到的、和杰弗里·爱泼斯坦只有最微弱关联的人名扔进去，这样能让我们拿到最大的图书合约。

Just throw out throw anybody's name in you can think of who might have had the most fleeting association with Jeffrey Epstein, and that'll get us the biggest possible book deal.

这会吸引最多的出版社和经纪人。

That'll entice the most publishers and agents.

至于德肖维茨，是的，他相当有名，我们都觉得他是恋童癖，所以也把他列进去吧。

And as to Dershowitz, yeah, I mean, he's pretty well known, and we all think he's a pedo, so throw him in there too.

我的意思是，他们就是这么说的。

I mean, that's what they're saying.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

这是你对发生事情的解读。

This is your interpretation of what happened.

这正是他们明明白白说的。

What's literally what they say.

我几乎是逐字引用了，但不是完全照搬，是谁来着

I'm almost quoting verb I'm not exactly quoting Who

说了？

said that?

谁说的？

Who said that?

这是彻彻对弗吉尼亚·罗伯茨·古弗雷说的话，而她完全同意。

This is what Churcher says to Virginia Roberts Goufrey, and she's all on board with it.

等等。

Wait.

我们怎么知道的？

How do we know that?

因为我们有电子邮件的 transcripts。

Because we have the transcripts of the emails.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

好的。

Okay.

然后，这些内容是在诉讼的发现过程中曝光出来的。

And then They came out of the course of discovery in in litigation.

这个人是谁？

And this person was?

她是一个被禁忌的八卦记者。

She was a taboo trash journalist.

是的。

Yeah.

谁是

Who was

和她合著这本书的人是谁？

working on the scenes with co authored the book with her?

或者他们当时在商谈什么

Or what was They were in talks for

她有可能成为这本书的合著者。

her to potentially be the co author of the book.

所以他们一直在 strategizing，想办法如何为弗吉尼亚争取到一本书的出版合约，或者找一个文学经纪人来签约，帮她拿到一份丰厚的书约。

So they were they were sort of strategizing as to how they could get a book deal or get a literary agent to sign on with Virginia and get her a lucrative book deal.

那后来发生了什么？

And then what what ended up happening?

他们写出了一个初稿。

A draft manuscript was produced.

我不清楚丘吉尔具体参与了多少，关于那个

I don't know exactly how involved Churchill was What in the

出版了吗？

published?

或者

Or

最初并没有。

Not initially.

最终，一个版本在去年十月问世，而弗吉尼亚·罗伯茨·巴夫雷在四月据称去世。

Finally, a version did eventually come out last October after Virginia Roberts Buffray's purported death in April.

我之所以说‘ purported ’，是因为她的死亡情况依然十分离奇。

And I only say purported because the circumstances of it are still bizarre.

听好了。

Look.

我的意思是，我现在愿意承认她确实已经去世了，但这又是另一个话题了。

I mean, I'm I'm willing to grant that she is in fact dead at this point, but, I mean, that's another sort of tangent.

但不，这本书很久之后才出版。

But, no, it didn't come out for a long time.

一份草稿被写出来了，随后在2017年至2019年期间的与德肖维茨的诉讼过程中，她的律师们——比如大卫·博伊斯等人——不得不代表她承认：这份原本被包装成非虚构作品、并以此为基础向出版商推销、并成为大量媒体关于这些指控报道依据的回忆录手稿，其实只是对她所谓经历的虚构化叙述。

A draft was produced, and then the draft manuscript had to be had to be revealed or handed over over the course of litigation with Dershowitz And her lawyers by the by 2017 to 2019 had to admit on her behalf, so David Boies et al, that this fiction that that this memoir manuscript, which had been presented as nonfiction, which was shopped around to potential book publishers as nonfiction, which had been the basis for a lot of media coverage around these allegations as as though it were a nonfictional representation of her purported experiences, they finally have to admit that it was a fictionalized account of her purported experiences.

比如说，

So, like, for example

这是VRG自己的律师，没错。

This is VRG's own lawyers Yes.

承认了，是的。

Admitting Yes.

比如大卫·博伊斯。

Like David Boyes.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yep.

所以他们基本上承认，这份手稿曾是她故事和许多相关神话的基础。

So they basically said that this manuscript, which had been the basis for her story and A lot of the mythology.

比尔·克林顿曾到过那个岛。

Bill Clinton was on the island.

她声称没有任何证据表明比尔·克林顿去过那个岛。

She claimed no evidence that Bill Clinton was ever on the island.

他确实在2002年和2003年乘坐过爱泼斯坦的私人飞机，但没有证据显示他曾经去过

He did fly around in Epstein's private jet in 2002 and 2003, but no evidence he ever went to

那个岛。

the island.

她声称她

She claimed that she

在岛上见过他，但据我们所知，或者根据所有现有证据来看，这完全是虚假的。

saw him on the island, and which is false as far as we go as far as we know or as far as all the available evidence has ever suggested.

这可能是关于爱泼斯坦最常被重复的指控之一，但非常模糊。

That probably is one of the most repeated claims in respect to Epstein Which is vague.

奥克兰曾在岛上，而你说这完全不属实。

Oakland was on the island, and you're saying that's just completely untrue.

这来自VRG的手稿，而他们最终不得不承认这是一部虚构作品，而非非虚构作品。

And that came from VRG's manuscript, which ultimately they had to admit was a work of fiction, non nonfiction.

至少这是她自己的原话，没错。

At least her own words Correct.

但最令人难以置信的是，就在去年七月爱泼斯坦事件爆发后不久，出版社显然意识到，将她的手稿改编成一本新回忆录将是一次利润丰厚的机会。

But to but what's so mind boggling is that just relatively recently, after this whole blow up around Epstein got ignited last July, the book publishers obviously realized that it was a high highly profitable opportunity for them to produce some version of her manuscript in the form of a new memoir.

她其实已经和另一位代笔作家艾米·华莱士一起，为这部手稿的新版本工作了一段时间。

Now she had been working on a new version of it with another ghostwriter for some time, Amy Wallace.

但他们显然想把这本书的出版与最近重启的爱泼斯坦丑闻联系起来。

But they obviously wanted to peg the publication of it to this renewed Epstein uproar.

所以，她的这本回忆录最终在十月以某种形式出版了。

So this her quote the memoir finally gets published in some capacity in October.

它成为了一本国际畅销书，不仅在美国，还在英国、澳大利亚等地广受欢迎。

It becomes an international bestseller, not just in The United States, but in Britain, Australia, etcetera.

我仍然感到震惊。

And I'm still stunned.

我的意思是，也许我已经不再能真正感到震惊了。

I mean, maybe I can't I don't I can no longer really be stunned anymore.

但回想起当时人们对这本回忆录如此轻信，依然令人难以置信，尽管它基本上只是艾米·华莱士这位代笔作家重新包装和润色的内容——哦，我一用‘润色’这个词就总忍不住停住。

But it's still stunning to think back on how credulously the reception to that memoir was even though, I mean, it was basically just Amy Wallace, this ghostwriter repackaging and massaging oh, I always catch myself when I use the verb massage now.

我不该用这个词。

I shouldn't use that.

重新包装了最初的回忆录手稿，并基本将其更新到了2025年。

Repackaging the initial memoir manuscript and basically updating it for 2025.

那意味着什么时间？

When does that mean?

他们从未披露过这本书是基于虚构化的手稿。

Nowhere do they do they disclose that it's based on a fictionalized manuscript.

所以这纯粹是欺诈。

So it's just a fraud

等等，那是……

that was Wait.

所以他们最终还是出版了手稿的某个版本吗？

So they ultimately did publish a version of the manuscript?

是的。

Yes.

去年。

Last year.

那本书是否包含了对德肖维茨和比尔·克林顿的指控，还是到那时已经被删掉了？

And did that book include the accusations against Dershowitz and Bill Clinton, or had that been removed by that point?

为澄清一下，针对德肖维茨的那些性不当行为指控并不在2011年的手稿中。

To clarify, those allegations of sexual improprieties against Dershowitz were not in the 2011 manuscript.

这些指控是后来捏造出来的，目的是让弗吉尼亚·罗伯茨·古弗雷能够加入由她的律师布拉德利·爱德华兹发起的ongoing诉讼，该诉讼基于所谓的《犯罪受害者权利法案》，并声称2008年2月的不起诉协议违反了该法案。

Those were concocted later as a basis for Virginia Roberts Gufray to join this ongoing litigation that her lawyer Bradley Edwards had initiated around something called the Crime Victims' Rights Act and how the non prosecution agreement from 02/2008 had supposedly violated the non the Crime Victims' Rights Act.

这是一个复杂的问题，但这些指控是在那时首次提出的。

It's a it's a complicated issue, but that was debuted.

针对德肖维茨的这些指控是在2014年12月首次公开的。

Those those claims against Dershowitz were debuted in December 2014.

但2011年手稿中已经包含了许多其他指控，并且提到了德肖维茨，但并不是性不端行为的指控。

But there are a bunch of other claims already in the manuscript from 2011, and there's a reference to Dershowitz, but it's just not an accusation of sexual misconduct.

好的。

Okay.

你提到的那三位女性——古弗雷、兰索姆和法默——她们请的是同一位律师还是不同的律师？

The the three women that you mentioned, Gufray, Ransom, Farmer, did they have the same lawyers or different lawyers?

这些律师们是合作工作的吗？

Were lawyers working together?

基本上是同一批律师。

Pretty much the same lawyers.

我的意思是，这基本上就是同一个律师团体。

I mean, it's basically the same cabal of lawyers.

戴维斯是一名律师，然后是布拉德利·爱德华兹的律所。

It's Davis was a lawyer and then Bradley Edwards firm.

布拉德利·爱德华兹最初是负责处理佛罗里达州帕尔梅托阶段（大约2002年至2005年）所谓受害者的律师。

Bradley Edwards was the initial lawyer that that oversaw primarily the Florida the the the purported victims from the Palm Beach phase from, like, 2002 to 2005.

他从2008年左右开始代理这些人，而博伊斯则稍晚一些才加入，主要参与更宏大的诉讼，但他们一直协同合作，至今仍是如此。

He started representing them around 2008, and then Boys came a little bit later around the more kind of grandiose litigation, but they were working they've worked in conjunction with one another and still are.

他们至今仍在以集体诉讼的形式起诉美国银行，要求再获得数亿美元，就像他们之前从摩根大通、德意志银行、爱泼斯坦遗产中获取的一样；此外，他们还提及了大量单独诉讼，但从未明确说明其具体范围，却大肆宣扬。

They're still suing as a in a class action lawsuit that they initiated last October, Bank of America, to extract a couple 100 more million dollars just like they did from JPMorgan and Deutsche Bank and the Epstein estate and plenty of individualized lawsuits that they've alluded to, but never, clarified the parameters of like they brag.

布拉德利·爱德华兹称，他们还有大约二十到二十五起仍处于保密状态的和解协议，涉及一些他承认可能根本没有任何不当行为的个人，但他们只是不想承受我们现在所看到的、被放大了无数倍的舆论压力。

Bradley Edwards does that they got like 20 or 25 settlements that are still secret, he says, from specific individuals whom he acknowledges may not have committed any wrongdoing at all, but just simply don't want to suffer the PR backlash that we're seeing now on steroids.

所以这是一门极其赚钱的生意。

So it's a hugely lucrative industry.

我不知道。

I don't know.

你告诉我，大卫。

You tell me, David.

整个故事的这个层面，有没有在任何主流媒体的报道中被提及过，无论是播客、CNN还是其他地方？

Is this, like, dimension of this whole story ever mentioned anywhere in any of the popular media coverage, whether it's on podcasts or on CNN or anywhere?

没有。

No.

好吧。

Okay.

所以就连德意志银行的和解协议，我好像都没听说过。

So even the Deutsche Bank settlement, I don't think I'd heard of that.

那到底是什么？

What what was that?

所以当埃普斯坦于2019年8月10日去世时。

So when Epstein dies, 08/10/2019.

对吧？

Right?

一旦埃普斯坦去世，针对其遗产的诉讼便如潮水般涌来。

The a feeding frenzy breaks out in terms of litigation that is brought against his estate.

因为那时埃普斯坦显然已无法对任何针对他的指控进行反驳，诽谤法也不再适用。

Because at that point, Epstein is obviously no longer available to contest any claims that are made against him, and libel laws ceased to apply.

人们显然都知道他非常富有。

People are aware obviously that he was very wealthy.

他不像很多人当时猜测的那样是亿万富翁，但根据他被捕时披露的资产，他的净资产约为66.5亿美元，这仍然是一个相当庞大的遗产。

He wasn't like a multi multi billionaire as a lot of people suspected at the time, but according to his disclosure of assets when he was arrested, his net worth was, like, $6,650,000,000, though still a pretty big estate.

因此，由于针对遗产的诉讼大量涌现，遗产执行人达伦·因迪克和理查德·卡恩决定与受害者的律师布拉德利·爱德华兹、大卫·博伊斯等人协调，设立一个名为‘埃普斯坦受害者赔偿基金’的调解机制，受害者或疑似受害者可以提交索赔申请，然后由调解员评估索赔并决定赔偿金额。

And so because of this flood of lawsuits against the estate, executors of the estate, the Darren Indyke and Richard Kahn, decide to agree to coordinate with the victim's lawyers, Bradley Edwards, David Boies, et al, to set up a basically a mediation program that they call the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund, which is a holistic settlement process that victims or alleged victims could submit claims to, and then there would be a mediator brought in to evaluate the claims and decide what amount of money to give out.

这样就不必让大量单独的诉讼蜂拥而至。

So there wouldn't have to just be like a flood of individual lawsuits.

他们可以将这些案件集中处理。

They could kind of consolidate it.

因此，他们为爱泼斯坦的遗产设立了一种和解模式，这种模式明确是非对抗性的，意味着不会对声称有权获得数百万美元赔偿的申请进行对抗性审查。

And so they set up a settlement model basically for the Epstein estate, which was expressly non adversarial, meaning there would be no adversarial scrutinization of the claims that were made to justify somebody's entitlement to millions of dollars.

作为索赔人，人们仅从这一赔偿基金中即可获得高达500万美元的赔偿。

People as claimants were entitled to as much as $5,000,000 from just this one settlement fund.

而且这笔赔偿金是免税的

And it was tax free by

这与德意志银行有关。

the This is with this is with Deutsche Bank.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

这是爱泼斯坦的遗产。

This is the Epstein estate.

我之所以提到德意志银行，是因为它与爱泼斯坦的遗产有关联。

I'm getting to Deutsche Bank because I get ties into the Epstein estate.

来自爱泼斯坦的遗产。

From the Epstein estate.

这个爱泼斯坦遗产是最早的一批和解方案。

This Epstein estate was first in the chronology of settlements.

于是他们设立了一个和解模式。

And so they set up a settlement model.

对吧？

Right?

所以是非对抗性、保密且免税的，因为他们声称这可以归类为美国国税局代码下的伤害赔偿。

So non adversarial, confidential, tax free because they claim that it applies under that it could be categorized under the IRS code as, like, compensation for an injury.

因此，你不需要为此缴纳所得税。

So therefore, you don't have to pay income taxes on it.

于是这个方案就建立了。

And so that gets set up.

对吧？

Right?

然后

And then

那谁来裁定呢？

And who adjudicates that?

美国维尔京群岛的法院，因为该实体的住所地在美属维尔京群岛，根据双方推荐任命了一位独立调解人或管理员，名叫西莫娜·勒尔丘克，她专长于这类事务，她声称自己对性侵受害者有特别的敏感度。

The court in The US Virgin Islands, because the state was domiciled in The US Virgin Islands, appointed on the recommendation of both parties a an independent mediator or administrator, Simona Lelchuk, her name is, who specialized, she claimed anyway, in this sort of thing and like she had an extra sensitivity towards sexual assault victims she claimed.

我的意思是，这有点虚假，我不想被扯进这个不必要的旁支话题。

I mean, it's kind of a phony don't wanna get, you know, sucked into that necessarily tangent.

但没错，有一位独立管理员，他们说这是借鉴了以往的合并赔偿机制，比如宾夕法尼亚州立大学的杰里·桑达斯基事件，你可能还记得，这位橄榄球教练被指控虐待多名男孩。

But yeah, so there's an independent administrator, and that was modeled, they said, on previous consolidated settlement mechanisms such as like the Jerry Sandusky I don't know if you recall the Jerry Sandusky scandal scandal at Penn State where claims were made that this football coach had abused a bunch of boys.

因此，设立了一个合并赔偿计划，向索赔人支付赔偿金。

And so a consolidated settlement program was set up to pay out settlements to claimants.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Got it.

所以这就是爱泼斯坦的遗产。

So that's the Epstein estate.

那么我们来谈谈德意志银行。

So let's get to the Deutsche Bank

在外面。

out there.

然后他们采用了为爱泼斯坦遗产设立的模式，开始针对那些大卫·博伊斯和布拉德利·爱德华兹认为与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦全球性的儿童性交易网络共谋的大型跨国银行机构，他们非常有创意且巧妙地提出了这一指控，我必须这么说，这些银行是可靠的。

Then they they they take that model that had been set up for the Epstein estate, and then they start going after bank major multinational banking institutions that David Boies and Bradley Edwards decide to, very creatively and cleverly, I have to say, allege were complicit in Jeffrey Epstein's, like, world spanning child sex trafficking operation and therefore reliable.

等等。

Wait.

德意志银行或美国银行与爱泼斯坦之间有什么关联？

What is the nexus between Deutsche Bank or Bank of America and Epstein?

那些是他使用的银行吗？

Were those the banks that he used?

爱泼斯坦在这些银行有账户。

Epstein banked at those institutions.

首先是摩根大通，从上世纪九十年代末到2013年左右，然后是德意志银行，从2013年到2019年。

First, JPMorgan from like the late nineties to 2013 roughly, then and Deutsche Bank from 2013 to 2019.

他们的论点是，这些银行本应以某种方式阻止他的活动，是的。

And the argument is that they should have somehow stopped his activities Yeah.

或者没有完成客户身份识别之类的程序。

Or failed to do a KYC or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

他们最初提出了更强烈的指控，声称这些银行直接参与了协助性交易活动。

I mean, they they they they they first started making a much more accusatory argument about their direct complicity in facilitating a sex trafficking operation.

但法官最终认可的是，这些银行在本质上构成疏忽，应被视为负有责任。

But what the judge ultimately agreed to was to that they were effectively or they were reasonably guilty or reasonably to be found liable for essentially negligence.

因为爱泼斯坦会提取现金，而这一行为本应触发某些监控机制，但据称摩根大通和德意志银行并未妥善执行。

Because Epstein would withdraw cash, and that's supposed to trigger certain monitoring provisions that it was claimed JPMorgan and Deutsche Bank did not satisfactorily do.

老实说，这个论点有点牵强。

I mean, was kind of like a stretch of an argument, frankly.

我明白。

I get it.

因为现在社会舆论普遍认为，任何与此事有关的人，都必须为这种恋童性交易行为付出代价。

Because of like the popular climate around, oh, some of the people anybody who was involved in this in any way has to pay for all this pedophilic sex trafficking.

这些银行机构的律师实际上很难为他们自己脱责。

There wasn't a whole lot really that the lawyers for those banking institutions could do to take the heat off.

所以他们达成了和解。

So they settled.

对吧？

Right?

好吧。

Okay.

所以他们达成了和解。

So they settled.

因此有两个和解基金。

So there are two settlement funds.

而且是的。

And that yeah.

那么这些赔偿基金怎么样？

So how are those settlement funds?

那两个？

The those two?

摩根大通最终总共支付了约2.9亿美元，而律师们成功说服了负责此协议的纽约联邦法官拉科夫，批准了他们所声称的30%律师费。

So JPMorgan was ended up totaling around 290,000,000, and the lawyers end up convincing the judge who presided over this agreement in New York, the federal judge, Rakoff, to grant them 30% in legal fees or attorney's fees that they claimed.

德意志银行的金额大约是9000万或8000万美元左右。

And Deutsche Bank was around 90,000,000 or 80,000,000 maybe.

好的。

Okay.

现在把这些加起来。

So it's Just add those up now.

据我记忆，爱泼斯坦的遗产大约为1.21亿美元，而且由于后续又提起了更多独立于集体诉讼和解的诉讼，这个数字实际上还增加了。

So the the Epstein estate was around, if I'm remembering, 121,000,000, and that's gone up actually since even more litigations have been filed, separated apart from the class action settlement.

摩根大通，2.9亿。

JPMorgan, 290.

德意志银行，大约8亿或9亿。

Deutsche Bank, around 80 or 90.

所以我们现在已经达到了五十亿美元的规模，而且由此衍生出了大量其他诉讼和和解。

So we're already at, a half $1,000,000,000 industry, and there's plenty of other lawsuits and settlements that have been spawned from this thing.

所以我一直不太理解，或者说，我其实明白，我应该纠正一下自己。

And so I just have never understood, or I do understand it, so I should correct myself.

我一直觉得这整个事件中，这个方面从未被提及，这真是荒谬得令人惊讶，因为它导致了受害者总数被严重夸大，其中还涉及成年人的动机。

I've always found it perversely amazing that this whole aspect of this story is never mentioned because it's led to such things as this gross inflation of the total number of victims where you have adult incentives.

你是在说，还有经济上的激励。

You're saying there's And financial incentives

这些律师都是按结果收费的原告律师吗？

just the lawyers are these are contingency fee plaintiff's lawyers?

他们能拿到30%的分成，还是多少？我的意思是，这些人不是按小时收费的。

They get like 30% or what's their I mean, guys are not paid by the hour.

对吧？

Right?

他们是他们获得

They're they're they get

嗯，不是。

Well, no.

嗯，那可能不是这样。

Well, could that I don't think it's no.

这不是按结果收费的。

Not it's not a contingency fee

好的。

Okay.

这是为此设立的。

Set up for this.

他们让法官批准了从赔偿金中提取30%作为律师费用。

They they got the judge to approve a 30% earmark of the resulting settlement funds to be given over for attorney's feats.

所以这不是基于客户的按结果收费。

So it wasn't a contingent based on the client.

而是法官批准了整个和解金的30%。

It was that the judge approved 30% of the overall settlement.

明白了。

Got it.

所以那些组织这些和解群体的律师

So the the lawyers who sort of organized these settlement pools

对。

Right.

提前谈好了他们的分成。

Negotiated essentially their cut upfront.

与

With the

法官，对吧。

judge, right.

和法官一起，你说这大约占了全部的30%

With the judge and you're saying that was about 30% of all

没错，各种情况加起来就是30%。

these Exactly various 30%.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Got

嗯。

it.

但如果你们设定的标准如此宽松，我的意思是，比爱泼斯坦案的标准还要宽松得多——爱泼斯坦案几乎允许任何曾经靠近他两个橄榄球场范围以内的人提出索赔，并获得数百万美元的免税赔偿。

But if set you have of criteria that are so lax, I mean, had even more lax criteria than the Epstein state, which basically allowed anybody who ever, like, came within two football fields of Jeffrey Epstein to file a claim against him and get a few million dollars tax free.

但摩根大通的和解协议甚至更加宽松。

But the it would the JPMorgan settlement was even more lax.

所以最终有些人基本上是被拒绝的。

So there are people who are eventually basically, rejected.

少数被爱泼斯坦遗产基金拒绝的人，其中一部分最终从摩根大通或德意志银行的基金那里获得了和解。

The few who are rejected from the Epstein estate fund end up getting a settlement from, some of them anyway, the JPMorgan or Deutsche Bank fund.

所以，这位名叫丽莎·菲利普斯的女性，曾是一名成人模特，大约二十年来从未就任何与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦有关的不当行为提出过任何指控，她在2020年的一次播客中公开表示，她完全不明白那些女孩对杰弗里·爱泼斯坦提出这些指控是在说什么。

So that that's so this woman Lisa Phillips, was, like, an adult model, never made any claim about anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein that was wrongful for, like, twenty years, said on a podcast publicly that she had no idea what these girls were talking about when they make these allegations against Jeffrey Epstein as of 2020.

她是这么说的。

She said this.

到了2023年，她开始获得，你知道的，她从未——我问过她。

By 2023, she's getting you know, she never she I asked her.

她没有向我透露具体金额，但你知道，可能至少有两百万左右。

She didn't disclose to me her full amount, but, you know, probably around 2,000,000 at least.

然后他们是否应该从美国维尔京群岛政府与摩根大通的另一项和解中获得免费医疗，该和解专门为任何声称的爱泼斯坦受害者提供直至2028年的免费医疗服务。

And then should they get free health care from yet another settlement between The US Virgin Islands, the government of the US Virgin Islands and the and JPMorgan that they set aside for just free health care for until 2028 for any alleged Epstein victim.

这就像是，难道人们没有意识到这可能会产生激励效应吗？

And it's just like, don't people recognize how that could be incentivized?

我们被告知，受害者总数被夸大了，这导致了关于数千名受害者的群体性歇斯底里和道德恐慌。

This inflation of the number of total victims we're told must exist and that thus gives rise to this mass hysteria and moral panic about, like, thousands of victims.

我的意思是，在上周众议院司法委员会那场极具争议的邦迪听证会上，有人高喊着成千上万的受害者需要正义。

I mean, at this Bondi Pam Bondi hearing that was so contentious last week at the house judiciary committee, you had people screaming thousands of victims need, you know, demand justice.

这纯粹是一种毫无 empirical 事实依据的捏造。

And it's just like a concoction that is not grounded in any approximation of like empirical fact.

所以我总是说，如果人们想对邦迪和卡什·帕特尔感到愤怒，那就该责怪他们签署了去年七月那份荒谬的备忘录，其中包含了‘一千多名受害者’这一数字，而这助长了关于埃普斯坦案受害者数量最极端的臆想。

So I always say if people want to be mad at Pam Bondi and Cash Patel for something, be mad at them for signing off on that ridiculous memo from last July where they include that figure of over a thousand victims that has given fuel to the most maximalist conceptions of Epstein mythology in terms of the victims that were left in their wake.

我的意思是，索卡总是想这么做，也许我不该说得太多。

I mean, soccer always wants to and I shouldn't maybe say too much.

我并不是在试图指责他。

I'm not and I'm not trying to impute him at all.

但我确实看到网上很多人在模仿索卡的做法，说：嘿，我们不如聊聊情报关联的事。

But I do get a lot of people on the Internet doing a variation of what Sokka did saying, hey, let's just talk about the intel ties.

抛开所有这些无聊的流言蜚语吧，他们

Forget all this, you know, gossip stuff around Well, they

很有趣。

are interesting.

我是说，情报关联确实很有趣。

I mean, the intel ties are interesting.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Sure.

我是说，整个故事都很有趣。

I'm I'm you know, the whole story is interesting.

有趣的是，爱泼斯坦 apparently 在他的棕榈滩家中见过迈克尔·杰克逊，而且相关照片被曝光了。

It's interesting that Epstein apparently met Michael Jackson in his Palm Beach house and photos of it came out.

有趣的是，他确实能从唐纳德·特朗普接触到比尔·克林顿。

It's interesting that he can So he will really from Donald Trump to Bill Clinton.

我同意。

I agree.