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好了，各位。
Alright, everybody.
欢迎回到达沃斯的《All In》节目。
Welcome back to All In at Davos.
我们正在世界经济论坛现场。
We're here at the World Economic Forum.
不知为何，他们邀请了我，我在这里以《All In》风格——即全程直击的方式，采访所有最重要的人物。
For some reason, they invited me, and I'm here interviewing all the most important people in the All In style, which is Full Contact.
我一个都不放过。
I'm doing all of you.
我们总是在播客里讨论投资点子。
We're always debating investment ideas on the pod.
通过公开市场生成资产，你可以用人工智能将你的想法转化为可投资的指数。
Well, generated assets on public lets you turn your ideas into an investable index with AI.
你只需输入一个类似‘受益于电厂建设的公司’这样的问题。
You just enter a problem like companies benefiting from power plant construction.
然后他们的AI会为你构建一个精选股票指数，并与标普500指数进行回测。
Then their AI will build an index of curated stocks for you and back test it against the S and P 500.
然后你可以像投资ETF一样投资这个指数。
Then you can invest in it just like an ETF.
前往 public.com，了解生成式资产。
Go to public.com and check out generated assets.
Public，为认真对待投资的人而生。
Public, investing for those who take it seriously.
我正在做这些访谈，我想我们大多数人一致认为，进入2026年，稳定币和AI、加密货币将迎来巨大复苏。
I'm doing all these I think most of us agree going into $20.26, stablecoins and AI, crypto having a huge resurgence.
我们很幸运请到了两位朋友：Coinbase的布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗，以及Circle的首席执行官兼联合创始人杰里米·奥利里。
And we were lucky enough to get two of my friends, Brian Armstrong from Coinbase and Jeremy O'Leary, who's the CEO and cofounder of Circle.
我们已经认识三十年了。
We've known each other for thirty years.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
That's amazing.
这真是一段漫长而奇妙的旅程。
What a long strange trip it's been.
我知道。
I know.
很高兴再次和你在一起。
It's great to be with you again.
是的。
Yeah.
这也不是你第一次来达沃斯了。
And this is not your first time at Davos.
你来过好几次了。
You've here a couple times.
是的。
Yeah.
我从2008年、2009年左右，跟着上一家公司Brightcove开始来参加。
I started coming with my last company Brightcove back in 2008, 2009.
那时的世界经济论坛也完全不同。
Very And different time both for WEF.
当时的世界也处于一个不同的时期。
It was a different time in the world.
全球正爆发严重的金融危机。
There was great financial crisis breaking out everywhere.
那是一个有趣的背景。
And that was an interesting backdrop.
而且值得一提的是，就在同一周，比特币区块链的第一个区块被创建，其中嵌入了‘财政大臣正站在救助边缘’的字样。
And also notable, I always reference that same week, was when the first block of the Bitcoin blockchain was minted with the chancellor on the brink bailout embedded in the blockchain.
是的，这很引人入胜。
Yeah, it's fascinating.
我觉得《权力的游戏》里有句话说得好，混乱是阶梯。
I think it's Game of Thrones, chaos is a ladder.
混乱是阶梯。
Chaos is a ladder.
是的。
Yeah.
对于我们这些经历过这一切的人来说，我想这已经是第三次了。
And for guys like us who've been through this, I guess, three times now.
我们经历过互联网泡沫，我想你们太年轻了，不记得1987年那个黑色星期五了。
We went through it in the .com I think we're too young to have you remember, obviously, that Black Friday in 'eighty seven.
但那时我们还在上大学，我想。
But For we were in college, I think.
所以我们经历了互联网泡沫、全球金融危机，然后又经历了新冠疫情。
And so we had our .com, great financial crisis, and then we had COVID.
新冠疫情。
COVID.
是的。
Yeah.
那也相当刺激。
Which was also pretty spicy.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
那是一个伟大的颠覆者。
That was a great disruptor.
但当这些时刻发生时，我猜对你和我所交谈的许多创始人来说，你们都会觉得这是创业的好时机。
But when you have those moments happen, I'm guessing for you and and many of the founders I talked to, you just think this is the time to build.
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
我的意思是，限制条件对创业者的行为有着巨大的影响。
I mean, constraints have a huge have a huge impact on what an entrepreneur does.
而且，你知道，在Circle的历史上，我们经历了巨大的起伏，其中一些是内生性冲击，一些是外生性冲击，所有这些都包括在内。
And, you know, in even in the history of Circle, we've had extraordinary up and downs, some of which are are endogenous shocks, exogenous shocks, all of this.
回到2009年，那一年我的公司Pray Cove实现了盈利。
And back to that 2009, that year actually I got my company profitable, Pray Cove.
不久之后，它就上市了。
And then not long after, it went public.
所以我们只能应对所面临的限制。
And so we deal with what we're dealt with constraints.
限制造就了伟大的艺术。
Constraint makes for great art
我想这是那句老话。
is I think the old expression.
那我们来聊聊你在Circle的经历吧。
So let's talk about your journey with Circle.
稳定币显然是当前的焦点，因为我们经历了那场天才般的行动。
Stablecoins obviously are top of mind because we had the genius act.
我的好友大卫·萨克斯，他是美国的加密货币和人工智能事务主管，此刻正和我一起在达沃斯，或者说我正和他在一起。
My bestie David Sachs, who's our crypto and AI czar for America, who's here with me at Davos, or I should say I'm here with him.
他邀请我来。
He invited me to come.
这项技术很重要。
This technology is important.
为什么？
Why?
我的意思是，你看。
I mean, look.
当我大约十三年前开始从事这项工作时，比特币刚刚出现。
When I got started working on this almost thirteen years ago, Bitcoin had emerged.
从我作为互联网技术专家的视角来看，我想：哇。
And it was from my perspective as an Internet technologist, I was thinking about, wow.
这看起来像是互联网的一个新的基础设施层，就像互联网缺失的基础设施层。
This seems like a new infrastructure layer for the Internet, like a missing infrastructure layer of the Internet.
互联网已经有了表示数据、媒体、音频、视频以及软件的方式。
The Internet had ways to represent in, you know, data, media, audio, video, you know, software.
但当时互联网上没有货币的概念，也没有任何货币协议。
But there was no notion of money on the internet, and there was no protocol for money on the internet.
当时很明显，这种情况迟早会发生。
And it was very clear at the time that that was gonna happen.
我们刚开始的时候，我并不确信全世界的人都会直接使用像比特币这样的新型商品货币。
And when when we started, I wasn't convinced that everyone in the world is just gonna use like a new a new, you know, commodity money like Bitcoin.
我的观点是我们需要一座桥梁。
My view is that we needed a bridge.
我们需要将现有的法币体系与加密货币和这些新网络连接起来，构建我们所说的互联网上的‘美元HTTP协议’。
We needed to connect kind of the existing fiat system to crypto and to these new networks and build like what we called like an HTTP for dollars on the internet.
这就是这个想法的由来。
And that was the idea.
最终，这被称为稳定币。
And eventually, that's called stablecoins.
是的。
Yeah.
早期，我们讨论过要构建法定数字货币、法币代币等等。
Early on, we talked about we're building fiat digital currency or fiat tokens or all this.
稳定币这个说法保留了下来。
Stablecoin stuck.
是的。
Yeah.
但我的意思是，我们现在有了一个通用的、架构性的互联网货币形式——数字美元，它可以像其他所有东西一样传输，并且能够实现点对点交易，这非常强大，为人们带来了巨大的价值。
But I mean, the basic idea is we now have a general purpose, general architecture form of money on the internet, digital dollars, that can move just like everything else, but that and can transact peer to peer, which is super, super powerful and provides a huge amount of value to people.
而且非常重要的是，由于区块链技术，我们现在拥有了可编程货币。
And really importantly, because of the technology of blockchains, we actually have programmable money.
因此，我认为我们正站在一场全球货币使用方式复兴的前沿。
And so we're right at the front edge of, I think, a renaissance in how money is used in the world.
我们稍后会再谈人工智能，我相信它与此密切相关。
We'll come back to AI, I'm sure, because it ties into that.
但从根本上说，我们只是需要一种在互联网上原生使用货币的方式。
But you know, fundamentally, we just we need a native way to have money on the Internet.
我们需要一种在互联网上非常安全的美元形式，而稳定币正是提供了这一点。
We need a very safe form of dollars on the Internet, and that's what stablecoins provide.
而美元价值的波动性和不确定性，使得消费者在打开钱包或银行账户时无法确定其实际价值，这成为了一大障碍。
And variability and not knowing how much your dollar is worth when you open your wallet or your bank account was a blocker for consumers.
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，那些波动剧烈的加密货币。
I mean, volatile cryptocurrencies.
没人会用比特币去买一杯咖啡之类的。
No one's gonna buy a cup of coffee with a Bitcoin, etcetera.
对吧？
Right?
所以，'稳定币'这个词就是这样来的。
So that's where the word stablecoin came from.
它就像是一种币，但它是稳定的。
It's like, well, it's a coin, but it's stable.
你是否真的实现了这一点，那是另一回事。
Do you actually achieve that is a whole different thing.
而这正是我们所构建的模型的关键所在，该模型完全储备了像超安全资产这样的东西，并且有监管机构和审计机构监督，确保一切
And and that's where, you know, the model that we built, which is fully reserved with, like, ultra safe assets and, you know, have we have regulators look after it and auditors look after it and make sure it's
都以正确的方式完成。
all done the right way.
我记得以前私下跟你聊过这个。
And I remember talking to you offline about this.
对大多数加密货币领域的人来说，选择去楚格是更容易的决定。
It was the easier decision for most people in crypto to go to the zug.
那是什么？
What is it?
楚格？
Zug?
楚格。
Zug.
这里在瑞士的楚格，或者就基于苏黎世，或者基于正确的地方。
The zug here in Switzerland, or just be based in Zurich, or be based in Right.
也许是迪拜。
Maybe Dubai.
而且，是的，直接放手一搏，别管什么监管了。
And, yeah, just YOLO it, and don't worry about regulations.
别担心审计。
And don't worry about audits.
别担心监管机构。
Don't worry about regulators.
你做出了不同的决定。
You made a different decision.
你告诉我，不，我要把这个做得严谨又正规。
You told me, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this buttoned up and proper.
那你为什么不去选择那种快速的方式，比如干脆 offshore 搞一下，放弃你的美国身份，你知道的，美国监狱。
And why didn't you go for the quick, you know, I'll just do this offshore and give up my United States, know, US jail.
或者甚至去坐牢。
Or even go to jail.
我的意思是，为什么不呢？
I mean, why not?
是的。
Yes.
我们现在有很多加密货币爱好者在观看这个节目。
We have many crypto people right now watching this show.
对。
Yeah.
来自圣昆廷监狱和
From San Quentin and
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你看。
I mean, look.
这个节目在那里很受欢迎。
Show is popular there.
我的意思是，实际上，回溯到公司创立之初，当我思考时，比如，好吧。
I I actually you know, going back to, like, even in the founding of the company, when I looked at, like, okay.
如果我们想建立一种新方式，把我们所认为的常规货币放到互联网上，并且真正构建一个全球都在使用的、真正被企业、个人所采用的互联网原生金融系统，我们会用它来做贷款，做各种事情。
If if we wanna, like, establish a new way to put, what we think of as regular money on the internet, and we want to actually build a new internet native financial system that the whole world uses, like actually uses, like businesses, are you going to use it, and people are gonna use it, and we're gonna, like, do loans in it, and we're gonna do all these things with it.
如果你希望它以这种方式运作，那你必须与现有系统整合，并与政策制定者合作来解决这个问题。
Like, if you want it to work that way, well, you you know you you have to integrate with the existing system, and you have to work with policymakers to figure that out.
根本没有其他办法。
There's just no other way.
所以我在2013年11月向参议院作证了。
So I testified to the Senate in November 2013.
如果你读过那份证词，就会发现我现在说的和当时说的完全一样。
And, you know, if you read the testimony, it's saying all the same stuff now as I did then.
但当时人们的反应却略有不同。
And It was received slightly differently.
确实如此。
It it really was.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我一开始收到了很多仇恨。
I mean, well, I got a lot of hate
对，详细解释一下。
Yeah, explain very
很早的时候。
early on.
想象一下，那时你确信自己是对的。
Take yourself back to that moment in time where you're you know you're in the right.
你正试图解释如何正确地做这件事。
You're trying to explain how to do this correctly.
但你得到的反应却与你预期的不同。
And you get a reaction that is different than what you maybe anticipated.
事实上，随着互联网上大量技术的发展，我那时就在场。
Well, think with a lot of technologies on the internet, I was around.
我认为我们俩都经历过互联网和万维网的早期阶段。
I think we were both around in early stages of the internet, early stages of the web.
当时有一种非常鲜明的自由意志主义观点。
And there's sort of a very kind of hard libertarian you know, view.
而另一端，则是明显的国家主义观点。
And and then there's the, you know, obviously, like the statist view
在
at the
另一端。
other end end of that.
而且，我倾向于自由意志主义。
And, you know, I lean libertarian.
但我认为，在互联网早期，如果我们希望允许企业参与进来，那就需要对互联网服务提供商进行监管。
But I think also, you know, in the early days of the Internet, was like, well, if if we want to allow companies to get on, well, we need to have regulation for ISPs.
我们需要能够拥有
And we need to be able to have
安全的交易。
Secure transactions.
安全的交易和SSL。
Secure transactions and SSL.
那么我们就需要有人来决定哪些网站是合法的，哪些不是。
And well, then we're going to need people who are making decisions about who's a valid site and who's not a valid site.
这些在当时都是非常有争议的问题，我认为那些更偏向无政府主义的人是反对的。
And these were really controversial things at the that I think the the, you know, more anarcho side of things was was against.
而如今，加密技术本身，密码学和加密货币正是从这种理念中诞生的。
And now crypto itself, cryptography and crypto kind of birthed out of that.
所以自然地，那些希望脱离体制的人。
So naturally who wanted to be outside the system.
希望脱离体制，是的。
Wanted to be outside, yeah.
我认为Circle一直试图寻找这种中间道路：开放的公共网络、无许可的创新、基于公共区块链、使用开源基础设施。
And I think Circle has always kind of tried to find this middle way, is open public networks, permissionless innovation, building on public blockchains, using open source infrastructure.
实际上，像USDC这样作为美元和一种技术的东西，其开放性远超传统的支付系统和传统货币体系。
And really, what you can do with something like USDC as a dollar and as a technology is far more open than the legacy payment systems and the legacy money systems.
因此，他们对这些根本性的互联网理念有着深厚的承诺。
And so there is a very deep commitment to those fundamental internet ideas.
但与此同时，如果你希望贝莱德使用它，或者希望世界上最大的科技公司使用它，或者只是想让人把它存在数字钱包里，觉得‘是的，这确实是1美元，我可以信赖它’，你就需要围绕它建立这样的结构。
But at the same time, if you want BlackRock to use it or want the biggest tech companies in the world to use it or you just want someone to hold it in a digital wallet and be like, yeah, this is actually $1 and I can rely on it, you end up needing to have this kind of structure around it.
为了信任。
For trust.
为了信任。
For trust.
是的。
Yeah.
信任，你知道，仍然是关键。
Trust, you know, remains a key thing.
而且显然，我认为人们常说‘代码即信任’，这大概是纯粹去中心化理念的典型表述。
And obviously, I think, you know, people talk about in code we trust is sort of the the what you'd, you know, kind of put around pure play.
对开发者来说，这样想很容易。
Easy for a developer to feel that way.
对一个非常技术化的人来说，这样想也很自然。
Easy for somebody who is extremely technical to feel that way.
但对于普通民众、非无政府主义者来说，你可能确实想了解美元究竟是如何被支撑的。
But for a civilian, non anarchist, yeah, maybe you want to understand how the dollar is actually backed.
说得太对了。
That's exactly right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为我们只是选择了这条路。
So I think we just took that path.
而这条路更艰难。
And that was a harder path.
这需要更多的资金。
It took more capital.
我需要投入更多，我雇用的第一位高管是总法律顾问兼首席合规官。
It took more I had to hire my first executive was a general counsel and chief compliance officer.
我想你不得不把这些职能内部化，因为如果你去找律师事务所，他们会说，我们不清楚，而且
Well, you had to bring those in house, I suppose, because if you went to a law firm, they would be like, we don't know, and
不敢承担这个风险。
don't take this risk.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，有一个故事是，在吉姆·布雷尔和通用资本决定向我们注资、帮助我们创业之前，他们说：我们必须确认，如果你这么做，这并不违法。
Mean, one of the stories actually is that before Jim Breyer and General Catalyst would give me capital when we were starting the company, they were like, we really need to know that if you do this, it's not illegal.
我们不希望有任何责任问题。
We're not going to have some kind of liability issue.
因此，我亲自用自己的钱聘请了全球顶尖的监管咨询公司，深入研究这个问题，与美国财政部的人员沟通，与其他相关方交流，真正弄清楚：我们能否这么做？
And so I personally, with my own money, hired the top regulatory advisory firm in the world to go look closely at this, talk to people at the US Treasury Department, talk to others, really figure out, can we do this?
而且，实际上我们是可以的。
And and actually, we could.
当时确实有一条可行的路径，这是因为美国财政部曾就如何在银行系统中处理虚拟货币发布过指导方针。
There was a there was a path to do it, and and that that's because the US Treasury Department actually had given guidance about how to deal with virtual currency in the banking system.
这发生在2013年3月，
This was in March 2013,
所以
so
非常早。
super early.
但，是的，我的意思是，我们必须清楚地知道，没错。
But, yeah, I mean, we needed to like know, you know Yeah.
是否存在一条合法的法律途径来实现我们的目标？
Is is there is there a legitimate legal pathway to accomplishing what we want to accomplish?
这一直都很重要。
It's always been, you know, important.
正如我们所见，有些事情是合法的，但也存在既得利益者。
And as we've seen, there's things that are legal, and then there are incumbents.
既得利益者会利用法律体系来阻止创新者。
Incumbents will use the legal system to try to stop innovators.
你也遇到过一点这种情况，对吧？
You've also faced a little bit of that, yeah?
是的，我的意思是，在整个构建这个系统的过程中，我们一直面临着与监管机构和既得利益者艰苦的斗争。
Yeah, I mean, I would say in the entire history of building this, there's been huge uphill battles with regulators and incumbents.
有趣的是，多年来我发现，如果你去见政策制定者或监管者，告诉他们：嘿，有一种新技术。
And what's interesting is that I found over the years that if you come into a policymaker or a regulator and you say, hey, there's a new technology.
它能以这种方式改善现状。
It can improve things in this way.
我们正在努力弄清楚如何应对这些风险。
We're trying to figure out how to deal with the risks.
确实存在真实的风险。
There are real risks.
别假装没有风险。
Like, let's not pretend there aren't risks.
让我们想办法解决这些问题。
And, like, let's come up with ways to address that.
实际上，人们对交流很感兴趣。
Like, actually, people are pretty interested in talking.
所以我觉得这种情况确实存在。
And so I think there's there's that's there.
但一般来说，当你去找既得利益者，说我们想和你们合作或整合，因为我们确实需要你们的合作才能让这一切实现，他们会表现出更多的怀疑和限制。
But generally, when you go to the incumbents and say, hey, we want to work with you or integrate this because we kind of need to work with you to make the whole thing happen, a lot more skepticism and and I think kinda constraint there.
所以现在情况变了。
And so that's changed now.
我的意思是，我们现在处于
I mean, we're in
一个完全不同的世界。
a very different world now.
现在，它已经从一种威胁转变为一种机遇，但我认为一些大型银行和主要参与者对稳定币和加密货币仍有些保留，我的看法是，他们可能担心你们在这一领域做得太出色了，嗯。
Now it's gone from a threat to an opportunity, but there is still a little reticence to stablecoins and crypto by, I think, some of the major banks and the big players because they're maybe they're my perception is they're a little concerned that you're too good at what you do Mhmm.
你们可能领先太多了。
And you might be too far ahead.
如果你们当初没有这么擅长做这件事，如果他们五年前就开始行动，他们对这件事的看法可能会不一样。
And if you weren't so dexterous at doing this and capable, and they started, you know, five years ago, they might feel differently about it.
我的直觉和你的判断接近吗？还是我错了？
Is my intuition close to your assessment, or am I wrong?
我觉得这确实有一定道理。
I think that that that's, there's some truth in that for sure.
但这很有趣。
But it's interesting.
就像你和我，我们与互联网领域的其他错误形成了鲜明对比。
Like, it's it's both you and I have this kind of juxtaposition against these other errors in the internet.
当数字媒体兴起时，人们发现你可以流媒体播放内容，可以在网上发布内容，可以做各种事情，于是涌现了大量数字媒体初创公司。
And, you know, when digital media happened and it was like, hey, you could stream media or you could put up content on the web and you could do all this, there are all these digital media startups.
媒体公司却说：我们也能做这件事。
And the media companies were like, well, we can do that too.
好吧，我们的商业模式可能需要调整，等等。
And Okay, our business model might have to change, etcetera.
数字广告？好吧，你可以把广告变成更精准的形式。
And digital advertising, Okay, well, you can transform advertising into Oh, it's more targeted.
所有这些事情都发生了。
It's all this stuff.
但显然有一些公司采用了根本不同的技术实现和软件执行方式。
But then there obviously were companies that kind of executed like fundamentally different technical execution, software execution.
它们构建了完全不同的基础设施，拥有截然不同的单位经济效益，彻底颠覆了产品、用户体验和经济模式。
They built completely different types of utilities with completely different unit economics that kind of turned the product user experience and economics upside down.
我们都知道这些公司。
And we know those companies.
Craigslist之于分类广告，Google广告网络，纽约时报，亚马逊市场。
Craigslist to classifieds, Google Ad Network Google Ad Network, New York Times, Amazon Marketplace.
还有更多类似这样的公司。
And and many many more like that.
所以我认为我们现在正处于一个类似的位置，许多媒体公司、通信公司以及企业软件公司都面临着这种情况。
And so I think that we're in a similar place right now where, you know, a lot of media companies absolutely and communications companies as well and soft enterprise software companies.
这里有很多大类。
There's big buckets here.
零售商们也表示，好吧，这是一种新的范式。
Retailers, like sort of said, Okay, this is like a new paradigm.
这对客户来说更好。
It's better for customers.
我能提供更好的产品。
I can deliver a better product.
从经济角度看也更优。
Like, the economics are better.
我们只能这么做。
We just have to do this.
我们要谈一下创新者的窘境，等等等等。
And we're going to innovator's dilemma, blah, blah, blah.
他们完成了这一转变。
And they make that transition.
这需要五到十年的时间。
And it takes like five to ten years.
他们花的时间是创新者的好三倍。
It takes them three times longer than probably the innovator.
像沃尔玛和塔吉特现在做得非常出色。
Like Walmart and Target actually do an exceptional job now.
是的。
Yeah.
联合航空的App并不糟糕。
United Airlines app is not terrible.
对。
Right.
我的意思是，不是Uber。
I mean, not Uber.
对。
Yeah.
但是
But
这就是一家软件驱动的公司和我们这样的软件公司之间的区别。
And this is the difference between, like, a software driven company and and a not we're a software company.
比如，
Like,
你知道，我们从根本上来说。
you know, we fundamentally.
当然，我们会更快。
Of course, we're gonna go faster.
当然，我们会理解用户体验。
Of course, we're gonna understand UX.
所以，银行方面，据我了解，有些银行对稳定币能够产生积分、激励或利息这一概念感到威胁。
So the banks, now my understanding is some of them are threatened by the concept of a stablecoin having the ability to generate points, incentives, or in interest essentially.
而这正是关键所在。
And that's kind of the sticking point.
天才的举措是说：嘿。
The genius act says, hey.
你可以有奖励，但不能有利息。
You can have rewards, but you can't have interest.
我想，正是这一点让这项法案得以通过立法程序。
And that was, I guess, where this was able to get through, the legislative process.
给观众解释一下。
Explain that to the audience.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以有几件事。
So a couple of things.
所以如果你回溯几年前，当稳定币刚刚出现时，全球最大的监管机构和银行监管机构齐聚一堂，成立了所谓的金融稳定委员会，并表示我们必须对这方面制定监管规则。
So if you go back a few years when stablecoin sort of emerged, all the biggest regulators, bank regulators around the world got together what's called the Financial Stability Board and said, we have to have regulations around this.
不能让这种情况失控。
Like, this can't just go crazy.
而且当时
And that
也正是Libra即将推出的时候，所有这些事情都发生了。
was also when Libra was coming out and all this.
但它并没有推出。
It didn't come out.
但曾试图推出。
But tried to come out.
Meta曾试图推出自己的项目。
Meta tried to do their own project.
根据我的内部消息，他们放弃了这个项目，因为政府认为他们已经凭借自己的平台拥有太多权力。
And they gave up on that project based on my insider information because the government felt they had too much power already with their platform.
扎克伯格说：‘我这家公司已经够受关注了。’
And Zuckerberg said, I have enough heat on this company already.
我不希望再有一群人认为我权力过大，然后把你给关停了。
I don't want to have another group of people thinking I have too much power and you shut it down.
这是内部人士告诉我的。
That's what I was told by internal Yeah.
有趣的是，你知道，一个是
It's interesting is, you know, one Is
你的理解也是这样吗？
that your understanding as well?
大致上是的。
Broadly.
关于这一点，我有一些不同的见解。
A variety of insights about it.
但我认为，我们其实是一家中立的公司。
But I think, you know, we're kind of like a neutral company.
对吧？
Right?
我们不是那种庞大的科技巨头之类的。
We're not a giant big tech, etcetera.
但回到你刚才的问题，监管机构聚集在一起，说：嘿，这里有一种支付系统的创新。
But kind of coming back to your question, regulators got together and said, hey, there is this payment system innovation.
这种创新叫做稳定币。
It is this thing called stablecoins.
他们一致提出了一些关于如何监管这种创新的建议。
And they all kind of said, here's here's some recommendations for how you could regulate this.
事实上，全世界都发生了类似的情况。
And actually, all around the world, that happened.
所以这件事首先在日本发生了。
So it happened first in Japan.
当时出台了稳定币法律。
There were stablecoin laws.
然后几年前在欧洲也出台了稳定币法律，接着在阿联酋和香港，后来在美国通过了《天才法案》。
And then it happened in Europe years ago, actually, stablecoin laws, and then in The UAE and Hong Kong, and then in The US with the Genius Act.
在所有这些地方，稳定币都被设计为类似现金的工具、支付工具。
And in all of these, stablecoins are designed as a cash like instrument, a payment instrument.
它们被设计成一种用于支付系统的货币形式。
They're designed as this form of money to be used in the payment system.
而这正是核心所在。
And that's really at the heart of it.
这些法律也正是这样制定的。
And that's how these laws have been written.
全球范围内的做法都非常一致。
And it's pretty consistent around the world.
所以《天才法案》就是这样做的。
So Genius Act does that.
但与此同时，根据《天才法案》，作为支付型稳定币发行方，Circle被禁止直接向稳定币持有者支付利息。
But it also, think, provides so as a result, under the Genius Act, Circle as a payment stablecoin issuer, we're prohibited from paying interest directly to stablecoin holders.
欧洲的情况也是如此。
It's the same thing in Europe.
我们在欧洲受到监管。
We're regulated in Europe.
规则相同。
Same rules.
日本也是如此。
Same thing in Japan.
所有这些市场都是一样的。
All these markets are just the same.
但与此同时，我们正在构建一项业务。
But at the same time, we're building a business.
我们确实产生了收入。
We do generate revenue.
我们与许多不同类型的平台、市场、分销商和经纪公司合作。
And we work with lots of different types of platforms and markets and distributors and brokerages.
我们与从Robinhood到Revolut，再到Coinbase和Visa等众多公司合作。
We work with everyone from Robinhood to Revolut to Coinbase to Visa and lots of companies.
这些公司认为稳定币同样非常重要，因为稳定币是人们存储资金、进行支付、交易以及在这些平台上开展多种活动的方式。
And so those companies you know, stablecoins are really important too because they are how people hold money, how people make payments, how people trade, how people do a lot on those platforms.
因此，他们希望有能力提供奖励、忠诚度计划或激励措施等。
And so they want to be able to have the ability to pay rewards or have loyalty programs or incentives and other things.
如果他们从与我们的合作关系中获利，他们也希望实现这一点。
And if they're making money from their relationship with us, want to be able to do that.
而《天才法案》正是捕捉到了这一点。
And that's what the Genius Act captured.
我认为这非常好。
And I think really I think it's good.
我认为这是一个很好的模式。
I think it's a good model.
所以你对现状很满意？
So you're happy with it as is?
我们认为这是一个非常稳健的模式。
We think a very solid model.
而且我认为，目前确实有一些持续的讨论，比如：哪些具体的东西有资格获得这类忠诚度奖励和其他激励？
And I think really, there's some ongoing discussion about, well, is there a specific set of things that qualify for those kinds of loyalty and rewards and other things?
法律应该有多具体？
And how prescriptive should the law be?
这有点又被重新拿出来讨论了。
And it's kind of getting relitigated a little bit.
据我了解，银行可能想试图阻止它。
The banks, my understanding, maybe want to try to kill it.
也许是一些感觉最受威胁的银行。
Maybe some of them who feel the most threatened.
这就是达沃斯这里的幕后操作吗？
Is that the back channel here at Davos?
我认为银行将稳定币视为一种威胁和机遇。
I think banks see stablecoins as both a threat and an opportunity.
对。
Right.
可以说，我们目前与全球更多银行的互动比以往任何时候都多。
You know, I I can say we're having more engagement with more banks in the world than we've ever had before.
好的。
Okay.
大型银行、全球性银行、区域性银行，世界各地的银行都希望将稳定币整合到支付系统中。
And major banks, global banks, regional banks, banks all over the world who want to integrate this and use it in payments.
他们希望将稳定币应用于资本市场运作。
They want to use it in how capital markets work.
想想看，我在交易所交易不同资产时需要提交保证金。
Think about I need to post collateral on an exchange to trade, and I'm trading different assets.
稳定币是完成这一操作的更好方式。
Stablecoins are a better way to do that.
因此，无论是在资本市场、交易、财富管理还是支付领域，都有其应用场景。
And so whether it's in capital markets, in trading, in wealth management, in payments, there's uses for this.
所以银行确实看到了很多机会
And so definitely banks see a lot
因为更快也更便宜。
Because it's faster and cheaper.
几乎是即时且免费的。
It's instant and it's free, essentially.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，如果你跟一家全球性大银行的人聊聊，你可以想象一下，比如其中一家。
I mean, if you talk to like a money a global money center bank, you know, you can imagine, you know, one of those.
我可能会说摩根大通。
I might say JPMorgan.
类似这样的银行，比如花旗或者这些银行。
Something like that or Citi or one of these banks.
如果你问他们，作为一家银行，你们接入了多少个不同的支付网络？
And you if you ask them, how many different payment networks are you integrated into as a bank?
他们会告诉你超过200个。
And they'll tell you like over 200.
他们接入了超过200个不同的支付网络。
They integrate to over 200 different payment networks.
而且这些遍布全球。
And it's all over the planet.
这些遍布全球。
It's all over the planet.
而且这些标准都不一样，对吧？
And it's all different standards, I would say?
不同的标准，不同的系统，等等。
All different standards, all different systems, etcetera.
所以如果你去跟他们说，稳定币网络就像一个新的支付网络，他们会说，我明白。
And so if you go to them and say, well, stablecoin networks are like a new payment network, they're like, I get it.
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这可是互联网上的东西。
Like, this is it's on the internet.
它具备互联网运行的特性。
Oh, it has the attributes of how the Internet works.
我们明白这一点。
We understand that.
这将成为你最快、最便宜、最可追踪的版本。
And this will be your fastest, cheapest, and most trackable version.
没错。
That's right.
所以我们实际上和一家全球系统重要银行合作，他们正在使用USDC在自己的全球分支机构之间转移资金，因为这比通过代理银行更快。
And so we actually we have you know, there's a global systemically important bank we work with who's actually moving their own money between their own global branches using USDC because it's faster than going through the correspondent banks.
更信任它。
Trust it more.
是的。
Yeah.
在这些情况下。
In in those cases.
所以总的来说，银行有很多机会。
So bottom line is there's a lot of opportunity for banks.
是的。
Yeah.
银行这件事并不是非黑即白的。
Bank, it is not it's not this is not a black or white thing.
我觉得我们会搞清楚这个奖励机制的。
I I think I think, yeah, we'll figure out this rewards thing.
我非常确定。
I'm very sure.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我和美国运通已经搞明白了。
I'm and Amex figured it out.
当然了。
And For sure.
电子游戏早就搞明白了。
Video games figured it out.
即使在那些情况下，也还是有点争议，比如他们说：嘿。
There was a little rattling even in those cases where they're like, hey.
这算是一种货币吗？
Is this a currency?
因为人们在eBay上交易它。
Because people are trading it on eBay.
你一直
You've been
在交易我在《魔兽世界》里的剑，或者这些极客们在搞的什么东西。
trading my sword from World of Warcraft or whatever these nerds are up to.
他们还问，这就像你有自己的货币吗？
And they were like, is that like you have your own currency?
这就像他们在玩电子游戏。
It's like, they're playing video games.
谁在乎？
Who cares?
我们能继续往下说吗？
Can we just move on?
世界上有比纠结美国运通积分被交易更重要的事情，对吧。
There's more important things to do in the world than sweat Amex points being traded somewhere Right.
还假装它是一种货币。
And pretending it's a currency.
你面对的是一个离岸平台，它可能有三倍于你的巨额管理资金，谁在乎呢？
You're up against a offshore platform that has, I think, maybe three times the amount of undermassive management Who's counting?
泰达。
Tether.
谁在乎呢？
Who's counting?
三倍、四倍、五倍。
Three, four, five times.
但你确实追得很快。
But you have been catching up pretty quick.
是的？
Yeah?
对。
Yeah.
USDC作为最大的稳定币之一，增长得更快。
USDC, amongst the largest stablecoins, been growing faster
你是第二名。
You're number two.
连续两年了。
Two years straight.
是的，我们是第二大。
Yeah, we're the second largest.
Tether是第一。
Tether's first.
而我们无疑是规模最大的受监管稳定币网络。
And we are by far the largest regulated stablecoin network.
而且我们与USTC相关的交易量增长也快得多。
And our growth in the amount of transactions happening with USTC is growing quite a bit faster as well.
所以，是的，我们感觉非常好。
So yeah, we feel really good.
我认为对于之前的问题，我们的观点是：如果这将成为实际经济体系的一部分，如果家庭、企业、公司和金融机构将使用并依赖它——无论你是巴基斯坦的一名远程软件工程师，还是巴西一家从越南进口产品的中小企业，或是美国从事衍生品交易的对冲基金，你都会希望拥有一个安全、全额备付、经过审计、合规、流动性强、能够在全球金融体系中自由进出的资产。
I think our view has been to the earlier question, if this is going to be part of the actual economic system, if households and firms and corporations and financial institutions are going to use this and depend on this, whether you're a remote worker who's a software engineer working in Pakistan or you're a small business that's importing products from Vietnam that's in Brazil or you're a hedge fund in The US that's trading derivatives, you're going to want to know that you have something that is safe, fully reserved, audited, compliant, liquid, available in and out of the global financial system.
当我们思考这一机遇时，这是一个巨大的机会。
And when we think about that opportunity, that's an enormous opportunity.
如今合法电子货币的总市场规模约为120万亿美元，并因货币宽松政策等因素持续增长。
The TAM of legal electronic money today is about $120,000,000,000,000 and growing because of monetary easing and things like that.
但在其中，大约有60万亿美元是实物现金和无息活期存款，也就是那些闲置的营运资金。
But of that, there's about $60,000,000,000,000 which is physical cash and non interest bearing demand deposits, so kind of working capital money sitting out there.
对吧？
Right?
因此，有大量的价值以储存价值和支付手段的形式存在，而稳定币可以逐步渗透到这个领域。
So there there's a huge amount of of value stored and used in in as a store of value, as a payment system money, and stablecoins can grow into that.
而且将会有一套基础设施，很好地整合到
And there's gonna be, you know, an infrastructure for that that's well integrated into
而且业务模式在于，这笔庞大的资本基础会产生资金沉淀，从而为你的业务提供支持。
And the business is there's a float on this large base of capital that gets to underwrite your business.
如果利率很高，那就是黄金时代。
If interest rates are high, it's boom times.
Tether每年仅靠资金沉淀就赚取超过100亿美元。
Tether's making over $10,000,000,000 a year on their float.
我猜你们的沉淀资金也带来了数十亿甚至低数十亿美元的收益。
You're making, I'm assuming billions of dollars or low billions of dollars on your float.
我不确定这是否是公开信息。
I'm not sure if that's public knowledge.
我们是一家上市公司。
We're a public company.
可以自己查一下。
Can look it up.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我的意思是，我假设是数十亿美元。
So that I mean, I'm assuming it's billions.
对。
Yeah.
不过我不确定你是否能按这个标准来细分。
Well, I'm not sure if you break it down by that.
我们通常谈论的是储备收入。明白了。
We we we talk about reserve income Got it.
作为一个指标。
As a a line.
而且是数十亿美元。
And it's billions.
这是一笔可观的金额。
It's a significant amount.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，如果我们进入零利率环境，这对业务会构成挑战吗？
And so but if it we go into a zero interest rate phenomenon, this could be challenging for the business or not?
嗯，一个
Well, a
几方面的事情。
couple of things.
我的意思是，如果你实际看看过去的情况，当利率非常低时，我们连续两年实现了百分之千的年增长率。
I mean, if you actually look at what's happened, when interest rates were actually very low, we saw 1000% year over year growth, two year straight.
所以增长超乎想象。
So growth was off the charts.
当利率真正开始上升时，我们确实看到了流通量的下降。
When interest rates actually started to rise, we actually saw declines in circulation.
为什么？
Why?
这实际上是资金的成本，也就是资金的机会成本。
Well, it's really the price of money, the opportunity cost of money.
利率设定了持有资金的一种成本。
Interest rates set a kind of cost to holding money.
因此，激励机制很重要。
And So the incentive matters.
是的。
Yeah.
激励机制很重要。
The incentive matters.
有趣的是，如果你看一下2023年12月的情况，当时所谓的远期曲线——从某种意义上说，这是短期资金价格的市场预期——实际上反映了市场对短期资金价格的看法。
And so what's interesting is that if you actually look at from, like, December 2023 when basically the forward curve, which was sort of the the the the kind of short term kinda price of money, in a sense, the forward curve kind of being the market's view of the short term price of money.
当这一曲线开始下降时，因为市场对利率的预期发生变化，USDC的规模就开始增长。
When that started to fall, because the expectation of interest rates came, USDC started to grow.
从峰值的5.25%、5.5%下降到我们目前的水平，大约是3.5%左右，利率下降了大约35%到40%，具体百分比我不太确定，但大致如此。
And actually, from the peak of whatever was five and a quarter, five and a half, down to where we are, which is three and a half or whatever it is now, that's I don't know exact percentage, let's call it 35%, 40% decline in the interest rate.
我们看到流通中的USDC数量增长了数倍以上。
We've had a multi 100% increase in the amount of USDC in circulation.
因此，这里存在一种反向相关性。
So there's an inverse correlation there.
我曾经在公开场合说过这一点。
And I've said this publicly.
我曾在媒体上公开说过这一点。
I've said this publicly in the media.
我已经多次、多次强调过这一点。
I've said this many, many times.
当利率非常高时，我的观点是我们真的需要利率下降。
I have wanted when interest rates are really high, my view is we really need interest rates to come down.
是的。
Yeah.
我们真的需要利率下降，因为这将有助于我们的增长。
We really need them to come down because that will help us grow.
这将提高货币的流通速度，蛋糕会变得
That will put more velocity of money The pie gets
更大。
bigger.
对。
Yeah.
蛋糕会变大。
Pie gets bigger.
这也会促进采用。
And Which also impacts adoption.
它也会影响采用率。
It impacts adoption as well.
因此，更多人正在将资本投入技术，以转型其业务并实现增长。
So more people are investing capital in technology to transform their businesses to grow.
科技上阵，对吧？
Tech on, right?
因此，这是一个催化剂。
And so that is a catalyst.
因此，我的观点是这非常重要。
And so my view has been that is really important.
我认为我们的观点是存在某种中性利率。
And I think our view is there is some conceptual neutral interest rate.
鉴于通胀持续在2.5%左右或类似水平，有些人认为，中性利率以及通胀的基本水平应该是2.5%或2.8%。
And given the persistence of inflation of around 2.5% or whatever it is, some people argue, is is the neutral rate should the neutral rate and and the kind of baseline of inflation be two and a half or 2.8
还是其他数值？
or whatever?
你知道
You know
2%这个数字是怎么来的吗？
where the 2% came from?
我之前在《All In》节目中提到过。
I I talked about it on a previous All In episode.
我不太清楚
Don't know
如果你不知道的话，我说吧。
if you I do, but go ahead.
是的。
Yeah.
新西兰。
New Zealand.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
新西兰有一位政客在和他们的央行交谈，他问：‘应该是多少？’
There was a a politician in New Zealand was talking to their central bank, and he was like, what should it be?
他说：‘我觉得是二。’
And he's like, I think two.
他说：‘对。’
And he's like, yeah.
你怎么得出这些数字的？
How'd you come up the numbers?
他说：‘我的直觉。’
He's like, my instinct?
是的。
Yeah.
美国一直是2.8。
America's been 2.8.
失业率为4%，利率为2%。
4% unemployment, 2% interest rates.
这两者都将面临挑战。
Both of those are gonna be challenged.
是的。
Yeah.
由于非常重大的技术和宏观因素，这两者都将面临挑战。
Both of those are gonna be challenged because of very significant techno technological and macro forces.
是的。
Yeah.
工作岗位流失。
Job displacement.
是的。
Yeah.
全球化对不同国家的失业率产生了影响。
Globalization have had impacts on this depending on the country, unemployment rate.
还有，有多少人选择就业？
And also, how many people choose to be employed?
我的意思是，在像我们这样或欧盟这样发达的社会里，有些人就是选择不工作。
I mean, you have a society that is doing as well as ours is or the European Union is, some people just choose to not work.
我认为现在的劳动力参与率是61%或62%。
I think labor participation now is 61% or 62%.
而当我们年轻时，这个数字曾达到68%到69%的峰值。
And then when you and I were coming up, it had peaked at 68, 69%.
所以当时高出大约15%。
So it was like 15% higher.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这确实很值得思考
It's really interesting to think
关于变化。
about changes.
是的。
Yeah.
作为竞争对手，Tether 将无法在美国运营。
Tether as a competitor would not be able to operate in The US.
有很多报告。
Lots of reports.
我会在这里谨慎发言。
I'll be I'm gonna be judicious here.
来自政界人士、媒体以及监管机构的各种指控、报告和担忧，称他们在一些黑暗领域活动，比如暗网和地下经济，这些地方你可能不想沾边。
Claims, reports, concerns from politicians to the press and everywhere in between and regulators that they're doing some stuff in the dark areas that maybe you wouldn't wanna touch in terms of the the dark web, dark economy.
但传言说他们打算推出一个美国版的 Tether，或许想合法化并接受审计？
But rumor is they're gonna do a a US version of Tether and maybe try to go legit and audited?
考虑到他们已在多个地区被禁，且曾引发巨大担忧——比如他们可能遭遇挤兑，因为他们的储备并非一比一美元支持，人们还提出了各种说法，说——
How do you how do you think about them as a competitor given that they've been banned in multiple geos, and there was, you know, some very big concerns that they might have a run because they're they weren't dollar for dollar backed, and people were had all kinds of claims about, hey.
也许他们有中国方面的文件，还有各种不同的问题，却不愿意进行审计。
Maybe they have Chinese paper and and all these different concerns, and they they wouldn't do an attestation.
但他们可能会找一家银行，或者在没人听说过的英属维尔京群岛做审计，而像KPMG这样的大机构可能对此一无所知。
And but they would do an attestation with a bank and somewhere in the BVI that nobody's heard of, and a big KPMG maybe doesn't a lot about this.
我本人原本并不是Tether的怀疑者，但我确实深入探究过，因为我曾在播客中报道并讨论过它。
Kinda, I was I was not a Tethr truther, but I did go down the the rabbit hole because I reported on it, you know, on the pod and talked about it.
但他们确实是一个重要的参与者。
But they are a significant player.
我在想，你怎么看待他们进入美国市场、变得更合法，并试图在这一点上追赶你呢？我的意思是，
I'm wondering how you think about them coming to The US and becoming more legit, and maybe trying to catch up with you in that I mean,
关键是，拥有天才法案的好处在于它创造了一个公平的竞争环境。
look, the beauty of having the genius act is that it creates a level playing field.
它确立了一项联邦法律，要求你必须进入监管体系，不仅需要接受审计，而且如果规模较大，还将受到美国货币监理署（OCC）这一非常严肃的审慎监管机构的监管。
It defines a federal law that you have to come in, not just be audited, but you're regulated by if you're large by the national bank regulator, the OCC, which is a very serious regulator, a serious prudential regulator.
我们已经获得了名为‘第一国民数字货币银行’的有条件批准，这是一家国家信托银行，我们将用它来支持USDC的运营。
And we've received conditional approval for something called First National Digital Currency Bank, which is a national trust bank that we're setting up to be part of how we operate USDC as well.
但再说一遍，公平竞争环境。
But again, level playing field.
如果你希望合规并在这种监管框架下开发产品，是可以做到的。
If you want to comply and build a product under that regulatory framework, can do that.
我认为很多人会这么做。
And I think many people will.
这就像网络中立性发生时，公共承运人规则出台的时候。
And this is like when net neutrality happened and common carrier rules came.
任何人都可以进入提供互联网数据服务的领域。
Anybody can get into providing data services to the internet.
任何人都可以构建这些产品。
Anyone can build these things.
所以这很棒。
So that's great.
因此，自由市场、明确的规则，我非常喜欢。
And so free market, clear rules, love it.
所以我的观点是，竞争一定会更加激烈。
So my view is there's absolutely going to be more competition.
而且我认为，这个市场的结构是这样的：稳定币是网络型业务，意味着它们实际上作为互联网上的平台和工具存在。
And my view is also that the structure of this market, stablecoins are network businesses, meaning they actually exist as platforms and utilities on the internet.
比如USDC和我们的稳定币网络，本质上是软件协议，同时也是数以万计集成了这些API的应用程序。
Like the USDC and our stablecoin network is literally the software protocols, but it's also the tens of thousands of applications that have integrated to the APIs.
每当一个应用集成时，Cash App就宣布：我们新增了对USDC的支持。
And every time an app integrates, Cash App just said, hey, we're adding USDC support.
这很棒。
That's great.
现在所有这些Coinbase都有了。
Now all this Coinbase has it.
Coinbase有这个功能。
Coinbase has it.
Revolut也有。
Revolut has it.
银行也在使用。
Banks have it.
维萨公司正在使用。
Visa's using it.
每当有人接入，Stripe和Shopify的商家就能使用。
Every time someone adds it Stripe merchants, Shopify merchants can use it.
每次有人接入，都会为网络增加实用性，增强网络效应。
Every time someone adds that, it adds utility to the network, it adds network effects.
接下来，有开发者会说：我想开发一个使用数字美元的应用。
And then the next developer who comes along and says, hey, I want to build app that uses digital dollars, etcetera.
我该用哪一个？
Which one should I use?
哦，我能和所有这些系统互操作。
Oh, I have interoperability with all this stuff.
太好了。
Great.
所以你拥有这些非常关键的网络效应。
So you have these network effects that are really key.
然后你还有我所说的流动性网络效应，即人们能够轻松地在世界各地的银行系统中获取和使用它。
And then you also have what I call liquidity network effects, which is the ability for one to easily get it and use it within banking systems all around the world.
因此，我们通过在新加坡、阿联酋和欧盟获得监管许可，构建了这个强大的流动性网络。
So we've built out this incredible liquidity network by being regulated in Singapore, in The UAE, in the European Union.
这是一件很容易做到的事。
And this is an easy thing to do.
我的意思是，这
Mean, this is
这是一个巨大的工程。
This is a huge build.
这是一个巨大的工程。
It's a huge build.
而现在它已经达到了一个程度，那就是它的可防御性。
And now it's at a point where And it's defensibility.
这是一种可防御性，我们拥有某种管道，世界上一些最大的资本市场参与者，比如贝莱德，能够支持代币化基金，使USDC能够自由进出其中。
It is defensibility, and we have pipes in a sense where some of the biggest capital markets participants in the world's companies BlackRock can enable tokenized fund that enables USDC to come in and out of it.
他们的机构参与者知道这会有效。
And their institutional participants know that'll work.
所以我认为这是一个冗长的回答，但本质上，我们觉得我们建立了一个优秀的平台和一个强大的网络，拥有非常强劲的网络效应，并且这些效应还在加速。
So I think it's a long winded answer, but the answer is essentially we feel like we've built a great platform and a great network, and we have really strong network effects, and they're accelerating.
我们作为一家公司，已经接受了公开审计，作为一家由纽约证券交易所监管、受美国证券交易委员会监督的上市公司，这一状态已经持续了一段时间，但更广泛地说，已经很久了。
And we've been publicly audited as a corporation, as a New York Stock Exchange governed publicly listed SEC supervised company now for a period of time, but more broadly for a long time.
当企业选择要构建和使用什么平台时，他们会考虑所有这些因素。
And when companies are going to choose what they're going to build on and what they're going to use, they're going to look at all that.
是的，影响力很重要。
Yeah, the footprint matters.
确实如此。
It does.
因此，每新增一美元稳定币进入市场所带来的边际价值，本质上是。
And so the marginal value of a net new dollar stablecoin coming into the market is essentially Yeah.
你需要知道，所有这些要素都是必需的。
You need you know, all these things are are needed.
那么什么是
And what do
你对这个观点怎么看：每个人都会拥有自己的稳定币？
you think about this concept that everybody's gonna have their own stablecoin?
会有一个亚马逊的稳定币。
There'll be an Amazon one.
显然，贝宝已经推出了一种。
Obviously, PayPal's added one.
你觉得这现实吗？还是人们会觉得，算了，我还不如直接用Circle呢？
Do you think that's realistic, or do you think people are gonna be like, that's just, I might as well just use Circle?
是的，我不认为会这样。
Yeah, I don't see that.
我觉得这很像其他互联网平台市场。
I think this is a lot like other internet platform markets.
就像不是每个人都需要自己的数据中心。
Like everyone doesn't need their own data center.
也不是每个人都需要有自己的垂直搜索引擎。
Everyone didn't need their own vertical search engine.
很多人曾认为，每个人都没必要打造自己的视频平台。
There are a lot of things that people thought everyone didn't need to build their own video platform.
因此，互联网规模的基础设施能够实现网络效应。
And so internet scale utilities achieve network effects.
它们能实现单位经济效益。
They achieve unit economics.
它们还能形成开发者飞轮，所有这些因素。
They achieve developer flywheels, like all these things.
而且它们往往会随着时间推移降低价格。
And they tend to lower their prices over time.
它往往会变得
It tends to get
更多，更多
more More
更经济、更强大。
and more economical and more and more capable.
因此，要实现这一点需要做很多事情。
So there's a lot one would need to do to do that.
我认为，即使那些技术预算庞大的大型银行，也可能得出相同的结论。
And I think even the biggest banks who have pretty big technology budgets may reach that same conclusion.
现在什么让你担忧？
What worries you now?
2026年及以后会是什么样子？
What's 2026 forward looking like?
什么让你夜不能寐？
What keeps you up at night?
机会显而易见，我认为。
The opportunity is obvious, I think.
你解释得非常完美。
You've explained it perfectly.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，看看，我们现在处于一个有趣的位置，监管的大部分清晰性已经完成。
I mean, look, I think we're at an interesting place where we have a big piece of the regulatory clarity done.
但仍有一些部分需要补充。
There are more pieces that are needed.
因此，还有与市场相关的工作，以及数字代币如何运作的问题。
So there's work related to markets, related to how digital tokens work.
这实际上非常重要，因为我们相信代币化是一种现象，智能合约将成为人们在互联网上进行中介的方式。
That's actually really, really important because we believe in tokenization as a phenomenon, smart contracts as a way that people are going to intermediate things on the internet.
因此，这方面还需要更多工作。
So there's more that's needed there.
我认为现在，让我担忧的一件事是不断变化的地缘政治和地缘经济格局，各方对经济联盟的定位等有着不同的看法。
And I think now, I think one of the things that concerns me is the changing geopolitical, geoeconomic landscape, which is there's lots of different points of view that are being taken on where economic alignment is, etcetera.
作为一家致力于在全球范围内提供技术的全球公司，这带来了新的复杂性。
And as a global company that is building technology that we want to make available globally, that introduces new complexity.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
我们正进入一个新联盟和国家冠军的时代。
We are entering an era of new alliances and national champions.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
你是一家美国公司，秉持美国优先。
And you're an American company and America first.
所以，是的，人们可能会根据美国企业通常的做法，以不同的视角看待你。
And so, yeah, you might be looked at differently based upon how the American, yeah, enterprises, you know, generally done
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Is very true.
我们的总部位于纽约市的自由塔。
Our headquarters is Freedom Tower in New York City.
同时，这些网络的技术实际上提供了一个机会，可以开发出更具地缘政治中立性、地缘经济中立性的版本，这样无论你来自印度、巴西、东南亚还是中东，都可以放心地基于这些平台进行建设，因为这些地区都是高增长市场，并且你能够与多种不同的经济关系网络建立联系。
And at the same time, the technology of these networks there's an opportunity, actually, to develop versions of this that are more geopolitically neutral, geoeconomically neutral so that if you're from India or you're from Brazil or you're from Southeast Asia or you're from The Middle East, like you can build and these are high growth markets that you're comfortable building on this with a variety of different nexuses of economic relationships.
因此，这确实是我们在思考的问题。
And so that's something we think about actually.
比如一种以欧元为基础的稳定币。
Yeah, like a euro based stablecoin.
我们拥有最大的以欧元为基础的稳定币。
We have the largest euro based stablecoin.
到目前为止，你们已经与多少种货币合作推出了这种产品？
How many currencies have you done that with so far?
我们实际上只专注于美元和欧元。
We've really only focused on dollars and euros.
为什么？
Why?
我认为这两种货币是被广泛采用的，既作为价值储存手段，也作为可自由浮动、流通和交易的货币。
Well, I think those are those are two widely adopted currencies for both as a store of value and as freely floatable, circulated, tradable currencies.
我们对欧洲市场有重大承诺，因此这也是我们致力于该市场的部分体现。
And we have a big commitment to the European market, and so it's also part of just being committed to that market.
我们认为这是一个巨大的机会。
We think it's a big opportunity.
至于其他所有货币，我们现在已为来自其他市场的其他稳定币发行方构建了一套技术栈，因为世界各地都已出台相关法规。
And then for everything else, we've really built we've built a technology stack for other stablecoin issuers from other markets now that there's laws around the world.
啊。
Ah.
所以如果他们想发行本国的稳定币，当然可以。
So if they want to do their national stablecoin Absolutely.
中心化的。
Centralized.
你们是和百慕大或者某种合作方在做这个吗？
Are you doing that with Bermuda or some sort of partnership?
百慕大的合作主要是帮助他们实现数字美元，让经济活动、商业活动和财政活动全部在链上进行。
The the Bermuda partnership is related to helping them kind of have digital dollars and and have economic activity, commerce activity, treasury activity all happen on chain.
明白了。
Got it.
这是一项基础设施布局。
So that's infrastructure play.
我不清楚他们的货币是什么。
I don't know what their dollar is.
嗯，他们
Well, they're
是美元。
a dollar.
这是一种以美元为支撑的货币。
It's a dollar backed currency.
他们已经推出了自己的稳定币。
They're already their own stablecoin.
但在其他地方，比如菲律宾、墨西哥、巴西、日本以及其他市场，还有澳大利亚、韩国，也在推出稳定币。
But in other places, in The Philippines or in Mexico or in Brazil or in Japan and other markets or Australia, Korea, there are stablecoins coming.
我们希望确保能够提供技术，使他们也能实现所有相同的功能。
And we want to make sure that we can provide technology so that they can do all the same things.
是面向政府还是银行？
To the government or to banks?
更多是面向私营部门，因为稳定币是由私营部门创新的，但这些公司都需要接受政府监管。
Well, more to the private sector because stablecoins are private sector innovated, but these companies all need to be regulated by the government.
他们需要遵循同样的
They need to be following the same
因此，与这些市场中的主要合作伙伴合作对你们来说会更容易。
So easier for you to partner with a major partner in those markets.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
我们希望看到这种增长和繁荣，即一个互联网金融体系，让全球所有经济体都能上链，所有的合同、金融合同、市场和资本形成、借贷等都能在链上进行。
And we want to see that grow and flourish, this idea of an internet financial system where all the economies of the world can be on chain, and all of the contracts and financial contracts and markets and capital formation, lending, everything can happen on chain.
很明显，小企业主和那些非常在意手续费的人，比如扑克玩家，都在被推向稳定币。
It's obvious that small businesses and people who are very and poker players people who are you know, concerned about their fees Mhmm.
那些关注这一点的人正被吸引到稳定币上来。
Will and and you you know, are focused on that are being driven to stablecoins.
他们明白了。
Like, they they get it.
他们说，是的。
They're like, yeah.
我正在做我的设计工作，你知道的，我是个在菲律宾为印度人工作的设计师。
I'm I'm doing my design job for you know, I'm a designer in The Philippines working for somebody in India.
美国人民。
People of America.
他们开始意识到，嘿，我不需要支付这些费用。
They're starting to figure out, hey, I I don't need to pay these.
是的。
Yeah.
然后消费者也开始明白了。
And then consumers are starting to figure it out.
也许如果他们也像。
Maybe if they're Yeah.
像我这样的扑克玩家，经常要转账。
Like me, a poker player, you're sending a lot of wires.
每年我都要为不同的扑克比赛来回转账，数量庞大。
Every year, I send, you know, tons of wires back and forth for different poker games.
是的。
Yeah.
现在，Polymarket 和 Kalshi 都让你用 USDC 充值账户。
Well now Polymarket and Kalshi, both you fund your account with USDC.
对。
Right.
要获得那种
To get that kind of
东西。
thing.
那是因为那个群体明白，他们总是在寻找优势。
Well, that's because that audience understands because they're always looking for edge.
速度。
Speed.
更快的速度。
Speeds.
但他们追求的是优势。
But they're looking for edge.
在扑克游戏中，如果你是个新手，而我是专家，比如我是杰森·库恩，你是菲尔·赫尔穆特，不管怎样，他对你有更大的优势。
In a poker game, you as an like if you were a novice and I was an expert, if I was Jason Kuhn and you were Phil Hellmuth, whatever it is, you know, he's got a bigger edge on him.
这是一个内部笑话。
It's an inside joke.
总之，重点是，你可能有1%或2%的优势，但经过100场扑克游戏后，这个优势会累积成更大的数字。
Anyway, point is, like, you might have a 1% or 2% advantage, but it compounds after a 100
是的。
Yeah.
打100场扑克游戏后，优势会变得更大。
Poker games to be a bigger number.
确实如此。
It does.
这就是为什么抽水如此重要。
This is why the rake matters.
对。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，赌徒和人们喜欢下注。
And, you know, gamblers and people like to wager.
好吧，你
Well, you
你知道谁是USDC最大的用户吗？
know who the biggest users of USDC are?
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我想表达的意思。
That's what I was kinda getting at.
实际上，它们就是一群赌徒，也就是全球最大的电子交易公司。
It's actually, it is a form of gamblers, which is it's the biggest electronic markets firms in the world.
明白了。
Got it.
那些需要在毫秒级延迟、成本和资本效率上争取每一个优势，以便在市场中调动资金的人。
The guys who need every edge in terms of milliseconds and cost and capital efficiency to be able to move capital in markets.
因为归根结底，他们是在通过算法试图找出下一步最该做什么。
Because at the end of the day, they are algorithmically trying to figure out the very next best thing to do.
如果他们拥有像互联网一样运行、具备数据成本效率的美元，就能获得优势。
And if they have dollars that operate with the physics of the internet and the cost efficiency of data, they have an edge.
所以他们非常喜欢它。
And so they love it.
他们非常喜欢它。
They love it.
然后是那些给家人汇款的人。
And then the people who are sending money home to their family.
他们也喜欢它。
They love it too.
是的，因为他们会想，等等，我给西联汇款付了这笔钱的12%？
Yeah, because they're like, wait, I'm paying Western Union 12% of this?
这太荒谬了。
This is bullshit.
没错，他们可以直接通过钱包向交易对手发送资金。
Right, they can have a wallet they directly send to their counterparty.
而且你会发现，这笔钱真的立刻到账了。
And it's like, wait a minute, this literally arrived.
现在数字钱包越来越多，你可以持有USDC，但通过Apple Pay进行消费，这些服务正在全球范围内广泛推出，让人们能够以数字美元存储价值，并通过支付终端使用，这相当不错。
And there's proliferation of these digital wallets now where you can hold it in USDC but spend it through Apple Pay that are being issued all around the world too so people can store value in digital dollars, use it through payment terminals, and that's pretty
也很棒。
cool too.
QuickBooks和TurboTax，是的。
QuickBooks TurboTax Yeah.
这个观点背后似乎有什么深层原因，是我之前没注意到的。
Thesis there because that seemed like there's something underlying that that I wasn't getting to.
我的意思是，是的。
Mean, it's Yeah.
很明显，钱确实正在那里流动。
Obvious that like, okay, there there's money flowing through there.
但那背后的宏观图景是什么？
But what's the big picture there?
Intuit是一家了不起的公司。
Well, Intuit's an amazing company.
显然，他们已经存在很长时间了。
Obviously, they've been around for a long time.
他们拥有规模巨大的业务板块。
They have franchises that are huge.
Credit Karma是一个庞大的业务板块，他们实际上正在扩展通过这个板块为用户提供的服务。
Credit Karma is a huge franchise, They're actually, growing what they provide to people through that franchise.
QuickBooks，显然，我们都了解，如果你经营小企业，你就会使用QuickBooks。
QuickBooks, obviously, we all know if you run a small business, you use QuickBooks.
实际上，QuickBooks通过它来向客户开具发票。
And actually QuickBooks, they invoice people through QuickBooks.
每年通过QuickBooks开具的发票交易额高达数万亿美元。
And it's actually trillions of dollars of transactions a year that are invoiced through QuickBooks.
如果你能通过USDC开票并结算，那比ACH更好，速度也更快，你可以想象一个小微企业能从中获得优势的世界。
And if you can invoice people and settle in USDC, that's better than ACH, and it's faster, and you imagine a world where small businesses can gain an advantage from something like that.
对账是这样的：你是一个TurboTax用户，报税后会收到退税。
Reconciliation is You're a so turbo tax user, and you file your taxes, and you get a refund.
想象一下，能够立即收到退税。
Imagine being able to get your refund instantly.
所以我觉得有很多酷炫的东西。
So I think there's a lot of cool stuff.
Intuit是一家非常创新的公司。
Intuit's a very innovative company.
这是一家涉足金融科技相关领域的科技公司。
It's a tech company that is in these financial technology adjacencies.
因此，我们对双方的合作感到非常兴奋。
And so we're super excited about the collaboration that we have.
我不想说谁是输家，但确实会有人因此面临挑战。
I don't wanna say there's a loser in this, but there are people who are gonna be challenged by it.
在美国运通和美国银行看来，Circle和稳定币是怎样的情况，如果你要评价的话？
How does American Express, you know, and Bank of America look at Circle and Stablecoins in your mind if you were to?
因为它们迟早会有所行动，不是吗？
Because they must call at some point, do they not?
我认为这些公司都有机会使用这项技术。
I think all of these companies have an opportunity to use this technology.
它们有机会利用这项技术来提升支付服务的效率。
They have an opportunity to use this technology to improve how they provide payment utility.
如果客户希望参与整个链上经济、链上投资以及从财富管理角度看发生的变化，它们也可以利用这项技术。
They have an opportunity to use it if their customers want to interact with the whole on chain economy and on chain investments and what's happening there from a wealth management perspective.
我最终认为，会涌现出更多基于稳定币构建的信贷产品。
I eventually think that you know, there's going to be more credit products that are actually built using stablecoins.
这会如何运作？
How would that work?
基本上，优势在哪里？
Well, basically And what's the advantage?
事实上，今天已经通过DeFi协议发放了数万亿美元的稳定币贷款。
Well, so already today, there there have been trillions of dollars of loans made in stablecoins through DeFi protocols.
你可以把你的USDC存入某个协议中。
So you take your USDC, and you effectively deposit it into a protocol.
在协议的另一端是借款人，而你会根据存款时间获得利息回报。
And on the other side of that protocol is a borrower, and you're paid an interest rate for the amount of time.
你变成了放贷方。
You become the house.
你变成了银行。
You become the bank.
最初的
The the original
确实如此。
does, actually.
正如几年前有人所说，这些就像是自动驾驶的银行——它们是软件机器，风险控制、抵押品管理、清算以及所有流动性都由智能合约系统自动处理，我们可以实时观察、完全可审计且透明。
I mean, are, as someone years ago said, these are like self driving banks, meaning it's software machines where the risk management, the collateral management, the liquidation, all of the liquidity that's there is all just smart contract machines that we can all observe in real time, perfectly auditable in real time, transparent.
银行里可没有这种机制。
You don't have that with a bank.
所以这里有一个非常有趣的现象。
So you have a really interesting thing there.
而目前，很大一部分贷款是借给那些借钱做投资的人，比如保证金交易。
And right now, lot of that is lending to people who are borrowing to do things like investing, like margin
这种类型的就是保证金贷款。
type of It's like margin loans.
如果我拥有100万美元的比特币，是的，我想花10万美元，但又不想抛售任何比特币，别人可以借给我资金，并获得一定的回报。
If I own $1,000,000 in Bitcoin, yeah, I want to spend $100,000 but I want to liquidate any Bitcoin, somebody else can And make some number of
你可以用你的比特币作为抵押借出USDC。
you borrow USDC against
你的比特币。
your Bitcoin
以此类推。
and so on.
但我觉得这还处于早期阶段。
But I think this is the early stage of that.
所以我们的观点是，如果你有这些数字现金，比如USDC，就可以创建贷款协议，用于比如我想雇一名新员工，或者我需要为我的餐厅厨房购置一些新设备这样的用途。
And so I think our view is that if you have these digital cash things, like USDC, that you can create lending protocols that are are lending for, you know, I wanna I wanna, you know, hire a new employee, or I want to you know, I need some new equipment for my kitchen and my restaurant,
所以是保理和设备租赁。
So factoring, equipment leasing.
所有这些形式的贷款，都可以实现。
All all of these forms of lending, right, can be done.
而其中所承担的风险，确实是真实存在的，是可以进行承保的。
And the risk that is taken, there's there's real risk there, can be underwritten.
而且这些风险发生违约时的保险，也是可以定价的。
And the insurance on the risks failing can be priced.
因此，你可以完全通过软件、完全通过软件机器来构建信贷市场。
And so you can build credit markets entirely in software, entirely with software machines.
没有购买任何商店里的东西。
No store bought in.
开始发挥作用。
Coming into play.
人工智能加上这类智能合约系统和稳定币，我认为为信贷市场的创新创造了一个非常有趣的混合环境。
AI plus these sort of smart contract machines and stablecoins, I think creates a really interesting little cauldron for credit market innovation.
让我眼前一亮的是，想象一个像AdWords那样运作的信贷市场。
And have a gleam in my eye, is imagine a credit market that worked like AdWords.
想象一种如此高效、能够像广告竞价一样瞬间完成信贷决策和结算的机制。
Imagine something that was that efficient and could clear and settle credit decisions at the speed of which an auction happens for attention.
因此，这类事情将成为可能。
And so those kinds of things will become possible.
这对那些有信贷需求的人而言，很可能非常有利。
And that probably would be pretty good for people who are on the other side of credit need.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你再想想货币流通速度，确实如此。
If you think about also monetary velocity Exactly.
经济上，你可以让更多的事物活跃起来
And the economy, you can get more things moving
没错。
Exactly.
更多就业机会、更多可能性、更多击球机会、更多射门机会
More jobs created, more chances, more swings at bat, more So shots on
货币流通速度会提高，我认为由人工智能和区块链网络驱动的这种信贷中介模式实际上可以进一步提升货币流通速度。
money velocity increases, and I think these kinds of credit intermediation models powered by AI and blockchain networks can actually further increase money velocity.
我们的使命是通过价值的无缝交换来促进全球经济增长。
And we have a mission statement to increase global economic prosperity through the frictionless exchange of value.
这正是我们的使命宣言。
That is literally our mission statement.
很多人常常认为价值交换就是比如付款。
And people, a lot of times, think exchange of value means like, oh, like making a payment.
不是的。
No.
价值交换是一种时间价值的转化。
Value exchange is the sort of time value of money transformation.
它本质上是，我现在有一些不需要的价值。
And it's sort of, I have value I don't need right now.
而你需要这些价值。
You have a need for that value.
我会利用时间来转化它，并从中创造出新的东西。
And I'm going to use time to transform that and then create new things from it.
真正的增长就来源于此。
And that's where actual growth comes from.
所以这就是
So that's what
我们想要的。一个有趣的地方是，既然我们在这里达沃斯谈论政治，你和我谈的是科技，但政治却是这里的大话题。
we want to One of the interesting things, since we're here talking politics at Davos, you and I are talking tech, politics is one of the big topics here.
所以我们稍微聊一下这个话题，听听你的看法和想法。
So we'll sort of end on that a little bit and get your ideas and your thoughts on it.
纽约市，我的家乡，正出现一股向社会主义倾斜的潮流。
There's a movement towards socialism in New York City, my hometown.
看着这一切，我感到非常心痛。
It's kind of heartbreaking for me to watch.
加州正在没收亿万富翁的资产， literally 要求他们列出并审计所有财产，包括为配偶购买的画作或珠宝的价值。
California is seizing the billionaire's assets, literally asking them to write down and audit everything they own, put a value on the painting or the piece of jewelry they bought for their spouse.
是的，我们一次性拿走5%就够了。
Yeah, we'll just take 5% of it once.
他们失去了200位亿万富翁和一万亿美元的资产，但他们似乎对此毫不在意。
And they lost 200 billionaires and a trillion dollars worth of and they and they don't seem to have any problem with it.
作为一名技术专家、创造者和资本主义者，认识你这么久以来，你如何看待我们这一代X世代正经历的这个时刻，目睹这场社会主义运动？
As a technologist, a builder, and a capitalist, as as long as I've known you, what what do you think about this moment in time us Gen Xers are living in watching this socialist movement?
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
我刚搬到纽约市，是的。
I just moved to New York City Yeah.
正好赶上。
Just in time.
正好赶上。
Just in time.
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说一下，这会增加你的成本，我认为你每年得多付2%。
By the way, that's costing you I think you're gonna have to pay 2% more a year.
但我并不
But I don't
觉得你是靠收入的人。
think you're an income guy.
你更像是靠资本利得的人。
Think you're more of a cap gains guy.
对。
Yeah.
听我说，我想说的是，过去几天我曾两次和Anthropic的Dario在一起。
Look, here's what I would say is and actually, I was with Dario from Anthropic a couple times over the past couple of days.
他显然经常谈论经济动荡、劳动力市场变化以及AI将带来的影响。
And he obviously talks a lot about the economic disruption, labor market disruption, what's going to happen with AI.
他并不是一个悲观主义者，但他确实有深深的担忧。
He's not a doomer, but he has deep concerns.
他深感担忧。
He deep concerns.
我也一样，当我看到非常积极的一面时，我认为我们将看到GDP增长的加速，无论你选择哪个时间框架。
And I also do, which is when I look at the very positive thing, which is that I think we're going to see an acceleration of GDP growth Pick pick your time frame.
三年、五年、十年、十五年。
Three, five, ten, fifteen years.
我认为，我们将经历一段非凡的经济增长加速期。
Like, we're gonna we're gonna see, I think, an extraordinary period of of of economic growth acceleration.
超过互联网和个人电脑带来的影响。
More than the Internet and PCs.
是的
Yeah.
这是一次非常、非常、非常
This is this is a very, very, very
强烈同意
Strongly agree.
巨大的变革
Very, very big transformation.
但大多数劳动实际上是由AI机器执行的，是的
And but where most of the the the labor is actually executed by AI machines Yeah.
而资本收益归资本所有者所有
And the capital accrues to the capital owners.
对
Right.
这就在我们面前明摆着
And that's just kind of there in front of us.
是的。
Yeah.
这是根本性质
It's the fundamental nature
资本主义的。
of capitalism.
根本性质。
Fundamental nature.
而且我认为这将以一种我们很长时间未曾应对过的方式挑战我们，是的。
And and I think that is just going to challenge us in ways that we haven't dealt with Yeah.
自其他时期以来，已经很长时间了。
In a long time, since other periods.
劳动力对资本曾是必要的
Labor was necessary for capital
说得对。
That's right.
为了成功。
To succeed.
是的。
Yeah.
工业革命是机械化的人类劳动。
The industrial revolution was mechanized human labor.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
这是，你知道的，机械化
This is this is, you know, mechanized
人工智能。
AI.
顺便说一句，CEO的工作似乎非常适合由人工智能来完成，有时甚至比我们做得更好。
By the way, the CEO job seems like ripe for AI doing a better job than we would do at times.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我不确定你有没有
Like, I don't know if you've
我经常在工作中使用AI
I use I use AI all the time in my
那你有问过它吗？
And you do you ask it?
我不确定他们是否意识到自己在和什么互动。
I don't if they realize what they're interacting with.
没有。
No.
但我的意思是，当我跟Coinbase的Brian——我们的朋友——聊天时，他说他把所有数据都输入到一个内部的专有大模型里了。
But I mean, literally when I was talking to Brian from Coinbase, our friend, he said he's got all of his data Mhmm.
进入了一个内部的专有大模型。
Into a proprietary LLM internally.
他在节目中提到过这个。
He said this on the on the program.
我不是在泄露内部信息。
I'm not speaking out of school.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他说他会问它：关于我的组织，我需要知道什么？
And that he asks it, what do I need to know about my organization?
就像是，哦，这里有个角落，大家对这个重要问题没有共识。
It's like, oh, there's non consensus about this important issue in the corner over here.
他却说：我不知道这件事。
And he's like, I didn't know that.
哇哦。
Like, woah.
那是教练吗？还是说那是某种并行的？
Was that a coach, or is that like a parallel Yeah.
像是另一个，呃，首席执行官？
Like another, like, CEO?
是重复的首席执行官吗？
Is it a duplicate CEO?
你克隆了自己吗？
Did you clone yourself?
你是怎么看待这个问题的？
It's like how how do you think about that?
我的意思是，我一直在思考这个问题。
I mean, I I think about it all the time.
你知道，我正大力推动我们Circle内部的所有人都更多地使用人工智能。
I I you know, I'm pushing very hard to encourage that we, are all inside of Circle doing more with AI.
我们当然会确保在安全和合规的前提下进行，因为我们是一家受监管的公司。
We're making sure, obviously, with safety and compliance in mind because we're a regulated company.
佣金很重要。
Commissions matter.
是的。
Yeah.
所以有很多工作要做。
So there's a lot of work.
我们在那方面投入了很多。
We invest a lot in that.
但即便如此，我们也要创造途径，让意识和理解得以建立，让作为领导者的我们能够借助这些资源。
But nonetheless, creating the avenues so that awareness and understanding can be there and that as leaders we can turn to that.
我最近在Slack的一个频道里发了一条帖子，大致意思是：如果你想成为Circle的优秀管理者，或许你能学会的最好的事情之一就是管理AI。
I put a Slack post in a Slack channel recently that sort of said, if you want to become a great manager at Circle, probably one of the best things that you can learn how to do is manage AI.
对。
Yes.
所以要投资于你如何管理AI和AI代理。
And so invest in how you manage AI and AI agents.
实际上，通过这种方式，你可能会成为一个更好的管理者和领导者。
Actually, how you might actually become a better manager and leader through that.
我是认真的。
And I mean that.
如果你考虑一下这些产品经理的职责，比如主持每日站会，当然。
Is one of the if you think about the tasks of these product managers who would run the stand ups or Sure.
你知道，传统的中层管理者职责是跟踪一群人、他们的目标、时间安排，以及谁表现优秀、谁遇到障碍。
You know, your mid level manager historically, it's to keep tabs on a group of people and their targets and their time frames and who's excelling and who's got blockers.
AI在这方面更合适。
AI is kinda better suited for that.
非常好。
Really good.
所以，一个优秀的中层管理者——虽然这个词带点贬义，但我们就用‘管理者’这个词吧。
And so the a great middle manager, which is a derogatory term, but let's just say use the word manager.
一个优秀的管理者应该能够通过Claude的协作功能管理十个团队。
A great manager should be able to manage 10 groups using, Claude's co work.
我不知道是不是真的。
I don't know if Yeah.
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