塔克·卡尔森：尼克·富恩特斯崛起，派拉蒙对决网飞，反AI情绪，最热观点

不。

No.

不。

No.

归根结底，人们总是会被优质产品所吸引。

Ultimately, people people are gonna be drawn to great products.

这一点毋庸置疑。

There's no doubt about that.

但主流新闻资产的整合，CBS的影响力、TikTok的影响力以及CNN的影响力是不可否认的。

But consolidation of the major news assets, CBS and the influence of TikTok and the influence of CNN is undeniable.

这就是不可否认的事实。

That is just undeniable.

对谁来说不可否认？

Undeniable to who?

在什么方面不可否认？

Undeniable for what?

这就是现实。

Just reality.

现实。

Reality.

你就是现实。

You're reality.

美国人。

Americans.

不。

No.

不是我的现实。

Not my reality.

你可以试着侮辱我。

You can try and insult me.

这不是重点。

That's not the point here.

这是个

It's an

侮辱性的公司。

insulting company.

不。

No.

那不是我的现实。

It's not my reality.

那不是我的新闻来源。

That's not where I get my news from.

让数百万人实地参与。

Get millions of people on the ground.

别看CBS和CNN。

Don't watch CBS and CNN.

那不是真的。

It's not true.

有400万人观看这个节目。

It's 4,000,000 people who watch it.

所以，是的，从技术上讲确实有数百万观众。

So, yes, it is technically millions.

你把所有数据加起来，大概是一年的总量，再去重。

You're Adding it all up over, what, a year, deduplicate it.

那么，CNN最专业、运营最佳、最受欢迎的节目是什么？

Like, what is what is CNN's most qualified, best run, most popular show?

好的。

Okay.

是什么节目？

What is it?

是在整个电视台还是新闻频道？

On the network or on the news

我不知道，因为我没有订阅。

I don't know because I don't have it.

我甚至连有线电视都没有。

I don't even have cable.

是啊。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

而你你

And you you

甚至都不知道。

don't even know.

支付

Pay for

你让你朋友偷《纽约时报》的文章，还有免费的家伙们到处传播

you asked your friends to steal New York Times articles and free guys rolling out

在其他人中，我是领先的平均水平。

of what everyone else will I am the lead average.

你作为曾深入虎穴的人拥有最终发言权。

You get the final word having lived inside the beast.

特朗普应该参与这些并购交易吗？

Should Trump be involved in these mergers and acquisitions?

是或否？

Yes or no?

塔克来电。

Tucker calls.

反正你也阻止不了他，所以无所谓。

Well, you're not gonna stop him, so it doesn't matter.

我们真正该担忧的不是媒体垄断权力。

Should we be concerned about is not media monopoly power.

而是科技平台的审查制度。

It's censorship of the tech platforms.

这才是问题的核心。

A return to that.

正是在这里，你摧毁了创造力和思想多样性，将整个国家重新关入它去年十一月才挣脱的精神牢笼。

That is where you destroy creativity and diversity of thought, put the entire nation into the mental prison from which it escaped last November.

这才是真正的威胁——审查YouTube和Instagram。

That's that is the threat, censoring YouTube x Instagram.

我只是认为我们应该聚焦于这个问题。

And I I just think we should be focused on that.

你对巴里·韦斯接管CBS新闻有什么看法？

And what's your take on Barry Weiss taking over CBS News?

我不确定你是否对此发表过评论。

I'm not sure if you've commented on that.

我有点佩服。

I'm kind of impressed.

我是说，虽然嘲笑巴里·韦斯愚蠢什么的很容易，这也没错，但你必须从反面来看待这个问题，这是消极的。

I mean, I, you know, it's easy to make fun of Barry Weiss for being dumb or whatever, which is fair, but it's you have to sort of look at it in reverse image, and it's negative.

就像那些天赋，你从哪里得到的？

It's like with those talents you got where?

你太棒了，我得说我同意这一点。

You're amazing, and I will say I agree with that.

我觉得她很有魅力，不知疲倦，充满活力。

I think that she's charming, she's tireless, energetic.

我不知道，但这仍然很重要。

I don't know, that still matters.

比如，我们过于高估智商了。

Like, we we overvalue IQ.

哦，一个人多聪明啊。

Oh, a person's so smart.

你知道吗？

You know what?

其实这并不重要。

It actually doesn't matter.

比如，有魅力、善于与人交往、不知疲倦地推进议程，这些才是真正有效的。

Like, being charming, meeting people, you know, pushing an agenda tirelessly, like, that that really works.

到头来，她得到的奖项根本不值得拥有。

And in the end, the prize she got is not worth having.

比如，让你来经营现在这样的CBS新闻台怎么样？

Like, how'd you like to run CBS News such as it is?

是啊。

Yeah.

不。

No.

说真的。

For real.

那简直是折磨。

That's torture.

他们给再多钱也不值得。

They couldn't pay you enough.

如果让你掌管CNN你会怎么做？

What would you do if you had CNN?

他们把这事塞进你的笔记本电脑里，还说你未来十年必须当它的CEO。

They put it in your laptop, and they say you're forced to be CEO of it for the next ten years.

你会怎么做？

What would you do?

嗯，其实我经历过这样的对话。

Well, actually, I've had that conversation.

稍微更相关一些。

Slightly more relevant.

如果你来运营我儿子的校报，你会怎么做？

What would you do if you ran my son's school newspaper?

因为规模差不多。

Because it's about the same scale.

哦，我会变得激进。

Oh, I'd get radical.

实际上，塔克有个

Actually, Tucker had an

还有其他好问题吗？

interesting any other good questions?

所以没有。

So no.

这是个很棒的问题。

It was a great question.

塔克正要回答它。

Tucker was about to answer it.

感谢你的插话，Chamam，还有你那精彩的社论。

Thanks for stepping on, Chamam, with your incredible editorial.

CNN的问题？

The CNN question?

我是说，我...对。

I mean, I Yeah.

我在那里待了将近十年，所以我觉得我很熟悉它。

Spent almost ten years there, so I I feel like I'm familiar with it.

是啊。

Yeah.

其实你知道，我真的跟人讨论过这事。

I have you know, I actually had this conversation with someone.

就像说，我们应该买下CNN。

Was like, we should buy CNN.

我们应该运营它。

We should run it.

所以我花了一晚上认真考虑这事，结果发现根本行不通。

And so I had cause to spend like an evening thinking about it, and no way.

首先，我跟沙莫斯立场一致。

I mean, what first of all, I'm with Shammoth.

我这辈子一直订阅《纽约时报》《华盛顿邮报》和《纽约客》，但现在全取消了，因为它们已经完全失去意义了。

Like, I don't have a New York Times or Washington Post or New Yorker subscription anymore after a lifetime of having all three, because they're totally irrelevant.

它们毫无价值。

They mean nothing.

他们是在对空气说话，就像回到童年的家，发现你的卧室其实很小，墙漆是蓝绿色的，那些八十年代的可悲海报还挂在那里。

They're speaking to no one, and there's a kind of musty it's like going back to your childhood home and seeing that your bedroom was really small, and like the paint was actually turquoise, and all these kind of sad posters from the eighties are still there.

哦，太压抑了。

Oh, it's depressing.

要是我，就直接关掉它然后重新建个新的。

Like, I would just shut it down and and build something new.

好吧。

Okay.

关掉它然后

Shut it down and

知道我对《纽约时报》的一个思考实验是什么吗？

see what my one thought exercise about The New York Times?

我认为唯一值得讨论《纽约时报》的一点是，未来五年内他们会做出某些极其恶劣、越界的行为，类似于诽谤或完全失实的声明。

The one thing that I think is worth talking about The New York Times is I think they will, in the next five years, do something so egregious and over the line, akin to some sort of libel or some sort of statement that it turned out to be completely false.

他们会被告上法庭。

They will get sued.

我希望当和解达成时，当事人会说‘我不想要那40亿美元赔偿金’。

And I hope when that settlement happens, the person says, I do not wanna get paid the $4,000,000,000.

我希望这笔钱能转化为非营利性质的公共信托基金，然后彻底关闭它。

I want this to be turned in kind into a nonprofit and into a public trust, and then shuts it down.

有意思。

Interesting.

这有点像福克斯当初支付7081亿美元和解金的情况，那是史上最大金额的

That's kinda what happened with Fox when they did their $708,100,000,000 dollar settlement, the largest one

和解案。

in history.

我是说，下一个案件金额会更高。

Mean, the next one will go up.

规模不会那么大了，毕竟现在已有先例。

It won't be that scale because you've had now that that precedent.

这个关于谎言和歪曲事实规模的先例非常重要，未来只会愈演愈烈。

That's a very important precedent about the scale of lying and misrepresenting things, and it only goes up from here.

这是个单向棘轮机制。

This is a one way ratchet.

是啊。

Yeah.

你在这点上大错特错了。

You couldn't be more wrong about that.

这绝对不可能发生。

It's definitely not gonna happen.

他们是有管控措施的，不过这个幻想挺美好。

They have controls in place, but it's a nice fantasy.

顺便说一句，他们现在势如破竹。

They're also crushing it, by the way.

转型订阅制后，他们现在有1200万付费用户。

When they move to subscriptions, they have 12,000,000 paid subscribers now.

客观来说他们势不可挡，比其他任何新闻机构都更胜一筹。

They are objectively crushing it and figure it out better than any other news organization.

无论我们是否认同他们的内容及其质量，客观来说他们都是美国最成功的。

Whether we agree or disagree with, you know, their content and the quality of it, they are the most successful objectively here in America.

好吧。

Alright.

说到成功掌控舆论，我们得谈谈尼克·富恩特斯，塔克你刚在播客里采访过他。

Speaking of successful in taking over the dialogue, we gotta talk about Nick Fuentes, who you just had on your podcast, Tucker.

你给了他发声平台。

You platformed him.

我这是在开玩笑。

I'm being facetious here.

你

You

给了他发声平台。

platformed him.

好吧。

Okay.

我创造了他。

I I created him.

基本上。

Basically.

哦。

Oh.

那是个有趣的讨论。

It was an interesting discussion.

给不了解尼克·富恩特斯的人科普一下——这位27岁的白人至上主义者在Rumble平台有个热门节目，大约50万订阅者，仔细想想其实不算多。

For those of you who don't know, Nick Fuentes and have been living under a rock, he's a 27 year old white nationalist with a very popular show on Rumble, about 500,000 subscribers, which isn't actually that big when you think about it.

他的追随者自称'抱怨者'，过去半年增长了数十万粉丝。

His followers call themselves Gripers, and he's gained hundreds of thousands over the past six months.

他现在风头正劲。

He's on quite a heater.

而且他有一堆争议性观点。

And he's got a bunch of controversial opinions.

我就直接引用他的话吧。

I'll just give you the quotes.

这与我对他本人的看法无关。

This has nothing to do with my opinion on him.

皮尔斯·摩根问他是否自认为种族主义者时，他回答「完全认同」。

He was asked by Piers Morgan if he described himself as a racist, and he said, totally.

我认为如果诚实面对的话，每个人都是种族主义者。

I think everybody, if we're being honest, is racist.

只有白人对女性假装自己不是种族主义者，这对他们有害无益。

The only people that aren't racist or pretend not to be are white people to their detriment on women.

皮尔斯问尼克是否是同性恋。

Piers asked Nick if he was gay.

尼克回答「不是」。

Nick said, no.

但我得说和女性相处非常困难。

But I will say women are very difficult to be around.

皮尔斯接着问，你认为他们应该有投票权吗？

Piers then asked, and do you think they should have the right to vote?

尼克说，我不认为。

Nick said, I do not.

绝对不行。

Absolutely not.

关于以色列，富恩特斯非常批判他所谓的美国有组织的陪审团。

On Israel, Fuentes is very critical and what he calls organized jury in America.

所以现在你采访了他。

So now you interviewed him.

可以从几个不同角度看待这件事，但你在讲述他的起源故事方面做得很好。

Couple of different ways to take this, but you did a good job of telling his origin story.

他曾是普拉格大学的一员。

He was part of PragerU.

他拥有这个真正被激活的选民基础。

He's got this really activated base.

为什么他此刻能引起共鸣？

Why is he resonating at this moment in time?

也许你可以向观众解释一下MAGA（让美国再次伟大）与'美国优先'、'唯美国'的区别，我认为后者属于'美国优先'的一部分，但由你来告诉我们，因为我觉得这些目前只是些术语。

And maybe you could explain to the audience MAGA versus America First, America Only, which I think are part of America First, but you you you tell us, because I I think these are just terms right now.

它们并不像政党那样的正式组织。

They're not like political parties or anything.

嗯，关于这些术语的含义存在争议。

Well, there's a struggle over what those terms mean.

这种争论很丑陋但可能有必要，因为你需要明确术语的定义。

It's very ugly and probably necessary because you need to define terms.

就像思考人生规划时，首先要做的便是明确概念。

Like that's the first thing you do, I would say, when you think through what you should be doing with your life, for example.

至于富恩特斯，他的起源故事更具体些，我长话短说：他在波士顿大学大一时期发了条推特，温和批评国会为以色列这个外国利益服务。

As for Fuentes, his origin story is little more precise, and I'll keep it short, but he tweeted something as a freshman at BU critical of pretty mildly critical of the congress for doing the bidding of this foreign country, Israel.

不知怎么被本·夏皮罗看到后，就攻击他，试图把他赶出共和党俱乐部，还确保他得不到保守派组织的实习机会。

And somehow Ben Shapiro saw that, and attacked him, and tried to get him kicked out of his Republican club, and made sure he didn't get an internship with some conservative organization.

我并不是在攻击本·夏皮罗，但这某种程度上说明了压制他人、终止对话的企图会导致什么后果。

And I'm not attacking Ben Shapiro, but that kinda tells you what attempts to shut people down, to shut conversations down result in.

它们不会消失，只会在黑暗中溃烂，有时会变得非常丑陋。

They don't go away, they just fester in the darkness, and they can sometimes become really ugly.

所以富恩特斯是什么样的人呢？首先，他说了很多真实的事情，这就是他受欢迎的原因。

So what Fuentes is, among other well, first of Fuentes is saying a lot of true things, That's why he's popular.

他很有趣。

He's funny.

他很聪明。

He's smart.

他是个优秀的广播员。

He's a good broadcaster.

是啊。

Yeah.

他是个出色的广播员，但从宏观层面看，富恩特斯令人不安，因为他的平台体现了某种已接管所有政治话语的东西——身份政治、部落主义。●●

He's a great broadcaster, but Fuentes, on some macro level, is troubling because he his platform is an expression of something that has kind of taken over all political discourse, which is identity politics, tribalism.

我坚决反对这一点，永远如此。

And I'm just opposed to that, period, and always will be.

我认为我们要么受普遍原则的约束，要么就被黑手党统治。

And I I just think that we're governed by universal principles, or we're governed by the mafia.

这就是我们的选择。

Those are our choices.

因此，我们的原则必须适用于每一个人，至少是每一个美国公民，否则它们就不成其为原则。

And so, know, our principles have to apply to every human being, or certainly every American citizen, period, or they're not principles.

那只是暴政的借口。

They're just justification for tyranny.

所以，富恩特斯信奉的是另一种身份政治，但身份政治有各种不同的形式。

So Fuentes, you know, has a different kind of identity politics, but there are all kinds of different identity politics.

我们在拜登执政时期就经历过这种政治。

We we lived under it during the Biden years.

实际上，我这辈子大部分时间都以某种形式生活在其中。

We've lived under it most of my life, actually, in one form or another.

因此，如果说有什么启示的话，富恩特斯提醒我们必须制定某种所有美国人都能认同的原则，即所谓的国家认同。

And so if anything, Fuentes reminds us that we have to come up with some kind of principle that every American can ascribe to, something called national identity.

这不是一个肮脏的词汇，而是防止国家分崩离析的必要概念——事实上国家正在面临这种风险。

That is not a dirty phrase that's actually necessary to keep the country from disintegrating, comma, which it is.

那么，三亿五千万美国人彼此之间究竟有什么共同点？

So like, what does every American, all 350,000,000, have in common with every other?

这正是我们需要展开的对话。若缺乏这种共识，就会涌现出许多人声称'所有白人站这边，所有黑人和犹太人站那边'之类的论调。

And that's the conversation we need to have, and in its absence, then we get a lot of people popping up and being like, well, all white people are over here, and all black people are Jewish people, or whatever.

这种分裂行不通。

That's not gonna work.

最终只会导致暴力。

That will end in violence.

这一点人尽皆知。

Everyone knows that.

所以现在正是厘清我们共同之处的绝佳时机。

And so now is probably a pretty good time to figure out what we all have in common.

我没有给他提供平台。

I didn't platform him.

首先，'平台'不是动词，任何把它当动词用的人大概都违背了我的核心利益，我会这么说。对。

First of all, platform is not a verb, and anyone who says it is a verb is probably opposed to my core interests, I would say, and Yeah.

只是和他进行了对话。

In conversation with him.

对。

Yeah.

我采访了他。

I interviewed him.

就像，采访所有人那样。

Like, interview everybody.

懂吗？

You know?

我的一贯信念是应该让人们说出想法，由他人来判断他们是否真心实意，是否在说真话，以及如何看待这个人说的话。

And my general belief is you should let people say what they think, and others can decide whether they mean it or not, whether they're being false or sincere, and and what they think of what the person is saying.

但这就是我的工作。

But that's that's my job.

我并不为此感到羞耻，尽管很多人试图让我为此羞愧。

I'm not ashamed of it, despite a lot of efforts to make me ashamed of it.

在普遍原则问题上，我确实与富恩特斯意见相左。

I do disagree with Fuentes on the question of universal principles.

首先，仇恨任何群体都违背我的宗教教义，我也告诉过他这点，但我没有刻意表演来显得自己像个好人。

I think it's well, first of it's against my religion to hate any group, and I told him that, but I didn't do a lot of other posturing designed to make me seem like, you know, the good person.

皮尔斯不幸作为年长者掉进了那个陷阱。

Piers, unfortunately, fell into that trap as an older man.

你知道，这不就是在说'你很坏'吗？

You know, well, isn't it you are bad?

然后就像，好吧。

And it's like, okay.

我甚至不反对其中某些观点，但你不能自我拔高。

I don't even disagree with some of that, but you don't elevate yourself.

你看起来像个脱离现实的蠢货，这正是皮尔斯·摩根掉入的陷阱。

You look like an out of touch buffoon, and that's exactly the trap that was awaiting Piers Morgan.

如果你观看那段采访以及公众反应，那丝毫没有削弱尼克·富恩特斯。

And if you watch that interview and if you watch the reaction to it, that did not diminish Nick Fuentes in any way.

反而提升了尼克·富恩特斯。

It enhanced Nick Fuentes.

真正能削弱尼克·富恩特斯的是直接提问，尤其是关于女性的话题。

What diminishes Nick Fuentes is asking him straightforward questions, particularly about women.

不是问'你和谁上过床'，而是'你为什么对女性如此愤怒？'

Not have you had sex with anybody, but, like, why are you so mad at women?

通过这种方式，让人们充分发言会暴露他们的本质。

And that and, you know, letting people talk a lot reveals who they are.

事实就是如此。

That's just true.

抱歉。

Sorry.

如果要你列举两三个主要原因，解释为何他能在年轻男性群体中引发共鸣，以及这场方兴未艾的'美国优先'运动——或许你现在可以尽量定义一下这个概念，虽然你并非该运动的领导者，但你也曾表示这个理念与你产生共鸣。

If you were to give the top two or three reasons why he's resonating with, it seems like, young men and this this burgeoning American first movement, which I guess would be good for you to define right now as best you can, recognizing you're not the leader of it, but you have said, I think, this concept is you know, resonates with you.

那么或许可以谈谈，为什么富恩特斯能引发共鸣？以及'美国优先'与'让美国再次伟大'有何区别？

So maybe why talk why is Fuentes resonating, and what is America First versus NAG?

按倒序来解释的话，我认为'MAGA'的核心就是'美国优先'，但我不会说'美国优先'是一场运动。

Like, explain In that reverse order, I mean, I would argue that the the premise of MAGA is America First, but I wouldn't say that America First is a movement.

我会说这是治理政府的唯一正当理由，道理非常简单。

I would say it's the only legitimate reason to run a government, and it's very simple.

民主共和国的政府理应在大方向上为本国公民的利益服务。

The the government of your democratic republic ought to act in broad terms on behalf of its own citizens.

说白了，道理就这么简单。

I mean, it's it's not more complicated than that.

这其中没有任何阴险之处。

There's nothing sinister about it.

事实上，与此相反的才是阴险的，因为那根本不合法的。

In fact, anything other than that is sinister because it's illegitimate.

否则你还有什么理由要运行一个民主共和国呢？

For what other reason would you run a a democratic republic?

那就是叛国。

10 treasonous.

实际上并没有其他理由。

There there isn't one, actually.

所以，这当然必须是一个美国优先的政府。

So, of course, this has to be an America.

如果你对这个名称感到不适，可以想一个新名字，但这个理念必须成为我们拥有政府的理由，否则我们就该废除政府，因为没有其他正当理由来维持一个政府。

You could think of a new name for it if that name makes you uncomfortable, but the idea has to be the reason we have a government, or else we have to get rid of the government, because there's no other justification for having a government.

好吧。

Okay.

那么，

So a.

其次，他为何受欢迎？

B, why is he popular?

因为他就是这么说的。

Because he says that.

但更广泛地说，是因为他具有反抗精神。

But I would say more broadly, because he's defiant.

有种'去你的吧，老兄'的态度。

There's a kind of up yours, buddy.

我不能那么说，好吧，看我的，我偏要说。

I can't say that, okay, watch this, I will.

他太搞笑了。

He's hilarious.

他看起来坚定而强大。

He seems steadfast and strong.

我...我不认为他是这样的。

I I don't think he is.

他连婚都没结，所以如果你害怕女孩，我觉得你就是个懦夫。

He's not even married, so like, if you're afraid of girls, I think you're a wuss.

这是我个人的观点，但他的反抗中确实有吸引人的地方，人们看到了真正讨喜的特质。

That's my personal view, but there is a but in his defiance, people see something really appealing.

他们怎么会不喜欢呢？

Why wouldn't they?

你懂吗？

You know?

你懂吗？

You know?

这些孩子成长在一个不断训斥他们、指责他们因出身而有罪的世界里，而尼克·富恩特斯只是对说这些话的人竖起中指，回敬一句'去你的'，谁不爱看这个？

These are kids who've grown up in a world of hectoring and telling them they're bad because of how they were born, and Nick Fuentes is just raising the middle finger to the people saying that and saying up yours, and who wouldn't love that?

当然

Of course

人们就爱看这个。

people love that.

美国优先的第二部分是'唯美国论'，我想这意味着

Second piece of the America First is America only, and I guess that means

我不明白那是什么意思。

I don't know what that means.

就是这样。

That's it.

不。

No.

当然，你看。

Of course, it's look.

我们按定义就是与他人协同工作。

We we work in concert with others by definition.

这是个全球化的经济。

It's a globalized economy.

你知道吗？

You know?

也许不该这样，但事实如此。

Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is.

但美国只有那个论点，从某种意义上说，这算不上真正的论点，它更像是一个旨在削弱主要论点的反口号，并非真心实意。

But America only that argument, in sense it's not really an argument, it's like a counterslogan designed to undercut the main argument isn't doesn't really mean it.

没人在主张那个观点。

No one is arguing that.

只是说，听着。

It's just saying, look.

美国政府理应为自己的公民谋利，而那些不认同这点、羞于解释为何不认同的人，因为根本没有理由不相信这点，就会说'你们是美国优先'。

The US government ought to act on behalf of its own citizens, to which people who don't believe that, who are embarrassed to explain why they don't believe it, because there's no justification for not believing that are like, well, you're you're America only.

不。

No.

政府就应该这么做。

The government should do that.

政府的每个部门都应把这点放在首位。

Every part of the government should have that foremost in mind.

这如何惠及为此买单并以他们名义行事的民众呢？

How does this help the people who pay for this in whose name it's done?

比如，再次强调，甚至称它为一场运动都让我抓狂，因为和什么相比呢？

Like, again, even calling it a movement drives me bonkers because compared to what?

某种阴险隐秘的寡头政治？我这辈子大部分时间都生活在这样的环境中？

Some sort of creep creepy secretive oligarchy, which we've had most of my life?

那样的情况就是很糟糕。

Like, that's just bad.

这根本没有辩解的余地。

There's no way to defend that.

我们可以在'美国优先'的框架内讨论如何实现美国优先。

And we can argue within the framework of America First how to put America first.

这是完全合理的争论，对此有各种各样的不同观点。

That's a totally legitimate argument, and there are all kinds of different thoughts about that.

但关于动机应该是什么，目标应该是什么，这是没有争议的。

But what the motive should be, the goal should be, there's no debate.

它必须主要是为美国公民服务的。

It has to be for American citizens primarily.

如果他们，你知道的，是附带受益者，那很好。

If they're, you know, ancillary beneficiaries, that's great.

完全不反对这一点。

Not against that at all.

如果可能的话，我们帮助所有人，但重点是要帮助那些拥有这个国家的人，美国的股东们，也就是美国公民。

Let's help everyone if we can, but the point is to help the people who own the country, the shareholders of The United States, who are American citizens.

没有其他意义了，对吧？

There's no other point, is there?

安息日，我从‘美国优先’运动、‘唯美国’运动的角度带你了解这个问题，作为对特朗普政府第一年感觉共和党内太多人可能让科技寡头、亿万富翁、国际问题受益的反应。

Shabbat, me bring you in on this from the angle of the America First movement, America Only movement, as a reaction to the first year of the Trump administration feeling too many people in the Republican Party as benefiting maybe tech oligarchs, billionaires, international issues.

比起工薪阶层，你已经开始在推特上发声，说，嘿。

More than the working man, you have started to tweet a little bit and become vocal about, hey.

也许在特朗普政府的第二年，我们需要重新聚焦于这些事情。

Maybe year two of the Trump administration, we gotta get refocused on some of these things.

为我们的观众详细解释一下。

Unpack that for us in the audience.

我能先就富恩特斯发表一下我的看法吗？

Well, can I can I offer my feedback on Fuentes first?

当然可以。

Of course.

可以。

Yes.

如果你想谈富恩特斯，请便。

Go with Fuentes if you like.

我有几点想说。

There's a couple points I wanna make.

第一，正如塔克所说，他很有魅力。

The first is that he is, as Tucker said, charismatic.

我觉得他很有趣，而且他能围绕许多敏感话题展开讨论，说出具有冲击力的言论。

I think he's funny, and I think that he can animate around a lot of touchy subjects and say things that have shock value.

我认为他实际上就像一个现代版的震撼DJ。

And I think in that what he is is actually like a modern shock jock.

他就像年轻版的霍华德·斯特恩。

He's like a younger Howard Stern.

他是这个时代的霍华德·斯特恩。

He's the Howard Stern of this era.

就像当年霍华德·斯特恩让许多人无法忍受那样——他80%的时候还算正常，然后突然就彻底失控，你会觉得这家伙集刻薄、癫狂、神经质于一身，还能用上所有类似的形容词。

The way that Howard Stern was in that era unlistenable to so many people because he would be kind of okay for 80% of the time and then go totally off the rails, and you think, man, this guy is some combination of mean, nuts, crazy, and then you throw out all these other adjectives.

这是第一点。

So that's point number one.

第二点是，确实让他说得越久，你就越能理解他的想法。

Point number two is it is true that the longer you allow him to speak, actually, the more you understand what he thinks.

因此产品的质量将决定其普及的规模。

And as a result, the quality of the product will dictate the scale of adoption.

现在这就是我认为媒体又一次非常草率、没有做好功课的地方——尼克，你可以把这段加进去。

And now this is where I think the media yet again has been very sloppy and doesn't do their work, which is and, Nick, you can throw this up.

过去几个月发生的事已经有很多研究了。

There's been a lot of research on what has been happening in the last few months.

过去几个月得出的关键结论是，社交媒体上存在大量个人账户的协同行动，这些账户大多未经认证。

And the bottom line takeaway in the last few months is that there is a coordinated effort of individual, largely unverified accounts in social media.

这些账户通常来自印度、巴基斯坦、马来西亚、印尼、尼日利亚等地，并且围绕这些内容存在协同放大的运作机制。

They typically emanate from India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Nigeria, and there is a coordinated amplification process that is happening around this content.

你现在看到的这张图表，只是对比了Nick内容发布前三十分钟的数据与埃隆等人发帖前三十分钟的互动量。

And in this chart that you're seeing, it's just a comparison of Nick in the first thirty minutes to what people like Elon get in the first thirty minutes of him posting.

其重要性在于，即便面对世界上最具传播力的人物和账号——比如X平台上的埃隆·马斯克——数据仍显示出巨大差异：在内容发布初期，他的传播力完全碾压其他所有人。

Now why that's so important is you start to see this huge disparity where even though you have the most viral person and account in the world, I e at Elon Musk on X, what you see is him completely crushing and dominating the virality in the beginning of his content creation versus anybody else's.

另外还有一堆其他图表，Nick。

And then there's a bunch of other charts, Nick.

你可以转发这个链接。

You can retweet a link to this.

数据开始呈现出某种协同放大行为的模式。

It starts to show a pattern where there is a coordinated effort to amplify.

我认为这就是为什么我们此刻会经历Nick Fuentes现象。

I think that's why we're having the Nick Fuentes moment at this point in time.

《纽约时报》突然注意到这些信息，可能懒得核实真伪，看到一堆正面提及，就开始把他吹捧成某种邪恶、疯狂、可怕的叛乱领袖。

The New York Times all of a sudden sees this information, probably doesn't bother to do the diligence, has a bunch of positive mentions, starts to pump him up as a leader of some kind of nefarious, crazy, scary rebellion.

呃，不是的。

Well, no.

他们想让他进入主流视野。

They wanna mainstream him.

他们确实想试着让他进入主流视野。

And they wanna try to mainstream him.

所以你现在看到的是《纽约时报》试图将这个人主流化并让他显得可信，以此来将右翼描绘成一群邪恶的种族主义空想家。

So what you see is the New York Times trying to mainstream this guy and make him credible so as to paint the right as a bunch of evil racist ideologues.

我认为皮尔斯·摩根的制作人没意识到这种情况正在发生。

I think the producers at Piers Morgan didn't understand this was happening.

因此当你给他20分钟的片段镜头时，这恰恰助长了他受欢迎的原因——那种能抛出精炼片段的能力。

And so when you put him on a twenty minute sound bite shot, it feeds into exactly what makes him popular, the ability to land these small sound bites.

这就是为什么我认为塔克的节目处理得更好，因为在长达数小时的节目里，你无处躲藏。

This is why I think Tucker's was much better because, again, in multi hour programming, you can't hide.

你会看到这个人完整的方方面面，并开始意识到这是一位非常精明的年轻媒体人。

You see the full facet of what the person is, and you start to understand that this is a very savvy young media personality.

当你剥离所有这些放大效应后，产品本身必须足够优秀才能实现规模化和增长。

Now when you strip away all of this amplification, the product has to work for it to scale and grow.

除非内容本身优质且正确，否则你绝不可能让普通男女花费时间认真接受这些观点。

There is no way that you're going to manifest average normal men and women spending their time to take these views credibly unless it's good and right.

终会有某个时刻，好奇心会让你发问：为什么所有人都在讨论这个？

There will be a moment in time where curiosity will cause you to say, why is everybody talking about this?

我们正处于那个时刻。

We are firmly in that moment.

但我认为他所说的很大一部分内容——我不确定他是否真心相信，因为我没有花那么多时间去了解——是旨在制造震惊效果的。

But I think that there is a large portion of what he says, which I don't know whether he believes or not because I haven't spent that much time, but is meant to shock.

这些言论旨在激发和煽动人们，但我认为这是不可持续的，因为其观点本身令人反感。

It's meant to catalyze and animate people, but I don't think it's sustainable because the views themselves are repugnant.

所以我认为

So I think

这就是为什么《纽约时报》想要抬高他。

And that's that's why the New York Times wants to elevate him.

你能把它放上去吗？

Can you put it up there?

所以我在那里

So there I

我。

am.

我看起来棒极了。

I I look amazing.

他看起来像个英俊

He looks like a handsome

照片里的家伙。

guy in that picture.

我看起来像个呆头呆脑的乡巴佬，而他看起来就在那里。

I look like a slack jawed yokel, and he looks There.

就像《叛逆者》里的那种感觉。

Like Rebel with a Yeah.

这是杰德·克兰佩特对阵詹姆斯·迪恩。

It's Jed Clampett versus James Dean.

我还想说，萨克斯和我加入了一些群聊，里面有些人在讨论是谁在资助并激活所有这些发展中国家中的机器人和虚假账号，以及他们为何选中他。

The other thing I'll say is that Sax and I are in a couple of these group chats with some folks, and some of the chatter there is that who is paying for and who is activating all of these bots and fake accounts in all of these developing world countries, and why did they pick him?

这些阴谋论基本上指向几个国家，它们乐于煽动那种不满和那种情绪。

Some of that conspiracy basically points to a handful of nations who would love to foment that kind of dissent and that kind of Yeah.

我们不需要

We don't have

担心

worry about

这个。

this.

我是说，这早就很清楚了。

I mean, this has been clear for a long time.

因此我认为从现在起非常关键的是，如果人们要听信他，我认为长篇幅内容更能暴露他的真实想法，让你自行判断。

So I think it's very important from here on out that if people are to listen to him, I think the longer form content exposes what he really thinks so that you can judge it for yourself.

但我不会忽视这一现象的发生并非完全自然形成的事实。

But I would not discount the fact that this moment is happening is not entirely organic.

这背后存在一场深度人为操控的行动，旨在将此事推上新闻头条。

There is a deep inorganic effort to put this on the front page of the news.

所以传统媒体需要决定，是要将此人捧为新晋英雄，还是根据现成可查的数据如实报道——这些数据既广为人知又易于获取。

And so it's up to traditional media to decide whether they're gonna basically lift this guy up as some kind of newfound hero or call it out for what it is, which is lead in the articles with this data, which is widely available and easy to get.

其实他在塔克播客上就明确解释过这一点。

Well, he literally explained this when he was on Tucker's podcast.

他大学时期就参与了类似PragerU的运动，自称曾加入名为'Prager军团'的Facebook小组。

He was originally in college part of this PragerU kinda movement, and he said he was in a Facebook group, which was the Prager Army.

我之前就讨论过这个话题。

And I've talked about this before.

我们还拿这事开过玩笑。

We've joked about it.

但就像你提到的那些群组一样，你也在其中。

But there are groups like the one you mentioned that you're in this group.

听说过它。

Heard about it.

有几百位知名的右翼人士。

There's a couple 100 right wing folks of note.

放轻松，蔡斯。

Take it easy, Chase.

我的邀请函显然没送到。

My invite didn't get got lost apparently to it.

不过，是的，请把我加进那个群组。

But, yeah, add me to that group, please.

但这些群组里发生的事情，有些是为了赚钱。

But what happens in these groups, some of them are designed to make money.

有些则是为了制造影响力。

Some of them designed to make impact.

安德鲁·泰特就有一个这样的案例，当推特开始与账号分享收益时，他建立了联盟计划。你看看这些匿名账号却能发展到巨大规模，比如伟大的Khoa国王等等。

Andrew Tate had one where there was an affiliate scheme put up for it when Twitter started sharing revenue with accounts, and you start looking at these, like, accounts that are anonymous but get to massive scale, King Khoa the Great, etcetera.

说的是剪辑农场。

Talking about the clip farming.

对。

Yeah.

而且他们就是在反复翻炒内容。

And and they're regurgitating stuff.

他们就是为了赚钱。

They're doing it for the money.

显然，他们每月能赚1万到2万美元。

Obviously, they're making $10.20 grand a month.

这就变成了一份全职工作，但我们还有俄罗斯人。

It becomes a full time job to do that, but we've got the Russians.

我们还有中国人，以及介于两者之间所有在做这种炒作的人。

We've got the Chinese, everybody in between doing this kind of pumping.

然后还有真正的军队。

And then there is the actual army.

所以尼克·富恩特斯有一支年轻人组成的军队在做这件事，他们使用VPN，他们淹没评论区。

So he, Nick Fuentes, has an army of young people who do this, and they're on VPNs, and they flood comments.

他们的做法是分享一个片段，如果你在社交媒体上有一定影响力，你会亲身经历这种情况：你有10个帖子获得一定数量的回复，然后突然第11个帖子在同一时间获得10倍的回复，而且这些回复都不是来自你的粉丝，而是来自这些群聊中的分享。

And what they do is they share a clip, and you can experience this in your own social media if you're of note because you'll have 10 posts get x number of replies, and then all of a sudden, the eleventh gets 10 times that all at the same time directly to it, not from your followers, and that's when they get shared on these group chats.

顺便说一下，我们应该提一下这个，因为我想听听塔克对此的看法，澳大利亚刚刚通过了一项法律，禁止16岁以下的人使用社交媒体。

By the way, we should mention just tangentially because I wanna get Tucker's take on this, but Australia just passed a law that under 16, you're now not allowed to use social media.

Instagram、Facebook、TikTok，在你满16岁之前全部被禁止。

Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all banned until you turn 16.

部分原因，杰森，我认为是因为这些协调一致的虚假信息和放大活动针对的是各种角色，不仅仅是尼克。

And in part, Jason, I think it's because these coordinated miss and disinformation or amplification campaigns are on all kinds of characters, not just Nick.

它们正在扩散。

They're proliferating.

因为正如你所说，经济因素至少创造了激励。

Because to your point, the economics creates an incentive if nothing else.

显然还有国家层面试图制造的混乱。

Then there's obviously the state level sponsored chaos that it tries to sow.

是的。

Yes.

为数不多的高层调控手段之一就是设定年龄门槛，限制未成年人接触这类内容，因为我们无法辨别其性质。

And one of the only high level bits that you can flip is to say under a certain age, we're just gonna minimize how much of this content you get exposed to because we don't know what it is.

在深入讨论前，我能否先就‘美国优先’‘唯美主义’这类术语说一句？

Before we go there, can I just say the one thing on America First, America Only, whatever these terms are?

我不清楚这些术语的含义。

I I don't know what they are.

‘美国优先，唯美主义’。

America First, America Only.

好的。

Okay.

我真的不明白这些术语指什么。

I I don't know what they are.

这些不是口号，而是反口号。

These aren't slogans, anti slogans.

我要说的是。

Here's what I will say.

我认为这非常重要，我是以一个移民者的身份说这句话。

I think it's very important, and I speak as an immigrant.

我想成为美国人。

I want to be American.

我不认为自己是加拿大裔美国人。

I don't consider myself Canadian American.

我不认为自己是斯里兰卡-加拿大裔美国人。

I don't consider myself Sri Lankan Canadian American.

我认为自己是美国人。

I consider myself American.

我希望吸收并体现这个国家的价值观。

I want to absorb and I want to reflect the values of this country.

我想了解并能与你们讨论这个国家的宪法。

I want to know and be able to talk to you about the constitution of this country.

我想要能够颂扬这个国家的文化遗产。

I want to be able to celebrate the cultural heritage of this country.

我认为这是我正在达成契约的一部分。

That's part of the compact that I think I'm making.

我确实认为这是我们都已经丢失的重要东西——当我们不得不穿着各种传统服饰四处奔走时，恰恰失去了让国家伟大的根本：一套共同的原则与价值观。

And I do think that's an important thing that we have all lost, where we have to run around in all of our traditional garb, it just loses that what makes countries great is a shared set of principles and values.

我们必须找到实现这一目标的方法。

And we have to find a way of doing that.

当我从加拿大移民时，我要告诉你们的是加拿大采取了完全相反的观点。

When I immigrated from Canada, what I will tell you is Canada took the opposite view.

我们过去常轻蔑地称美国为'大熔炉'，甚至在教科书里也这么写。

We used to call America a melting pot pejoratively, even in textbooks.

而教科书会把加拿大称为'凉拌沙拉'，我们会庆祝那种形式的多元文化主义更为优越。

And the textbooks would call Canada a tossed salad, and we would celebrate that that form of multiculturalism was better.

但当你快进二十年，这种做法只会造成混乱。

But when you fast forward the clock twenty years, all it did was create confusion.

例如，如果你在加拿大上学，那里有数不清的节日。

For example, if you go to school in Canada, there's like a bajillion holidays.

每种文化都有自己的休假日。

Every culture gets their day off.

然后突然间会发生什么？

And then all of a sudden, what happens?

孩子们得不到教育，因为你必须让每个小众国家都以某种形式得到认可。

The kids don't get educated because you have to have every long tail country get recognized in some way, shape, or form.

突然间，你就失去了这种非常标准的基础组织形式。

All of a sudden, you lose this very standard form of basic organization.

这只是其中一个例子。

That's just but one example.

你知道，表格有50种语言版本。

You know, the forms are in 50 languages.

这一切只会制造混乱。

All that does is create chaos.

表格应该只用英语和法语，因为这是加拿大的两种官方语言。

It should have been in English and French because those are the two official languages of the country.

所有这些

All of that

这种间接性——试图颂扬每个人的文化传承——只会让国家陷入困惑并拖慢发展。

indirection, trying to celebrate everybody's heritage, confuses and slows that country down.

从GDP数据就能看出这一点。

And you can see it in the GDP.

从外国直接投资(FDI)也能看出端倪。

You can see it in the FDI, foreign direct investment.

这是显而易见的。

You can see it.

因此我们必须达成共识：美国有其独特的文化和价值观体系，我们绝不能丢失这些。

So the one thing that we have to agree is that there is an American culture and set of values, and we should not lose it.

我们应该要求那些想来这里的人拥抱它。

And we should ask the people that wanna be here to embrace it.

我们都拥抱了它。

We all embraced it.

萨克斯欣然接受了这一点。

Saxe embraced it.

如果你和萨克斯的父母交谈，他们也已经接受了这一点。

If you talk to Saxe's parents, they've embraced it.

如果你和弗莱伯格的父母交谈，我们都来自不同的国家，但本质上都是美国人。

If you talk to Freiberg Freiberg's parents, we all came from different countries, but we are fundamentally American.

J Cal，我不太确定，但你是在暗示尼克·富恩特斯迅速崛起的幕后推手是俄罗斯人吗？

J Cal, I'm I wasn't sure, but were you intimating that the party behind Nick Fuente's meteoric success is the Russians?

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

我只是说有组织刷屏的现象存在。

Was just saying that there's brigading going on.

你认为是哪个外国势力所为？

Which foreign actor do you think it is?

你知道，其中有些人就是想制造混乱。

You know, some of them just wanna create chaos.

我把俄罗斯算在内，在美国制造分裂能让美国人分心。

I put Russia in that, just creating division in America distracts Americans.

我觉得他们乐见其成。

I think they like that.

但这个事情有三个层面。

But I there are three levels of this.

首先是他自己的军团。

There's his army.

福恩特斯确实有一支由不满的年轻男性组成的超级粉丝军团，他们心怀不满是有原因的。

Fuentes does have an army of super fans who are disaffected young men, and there's a reason why they're disaffected.

工作很难找。

It's hard to get jobs.

买房根本不可能。

It's impossible to get a home.

医疗方面，他们见过有人因为医疗费用而破产。

Health care, they've seen people, you know, go bankrupt because of health care.

看看医疗、住房和教育，这些正是我们在美国最需要解决的三大问题。

If you look at health care homes and education, those are the three most important things we have to fix in America.

这就是为什么年轻人会感到不满。

That's why young people are disaffected.

当你年轻时感到不满，有人开始责怪犹太人、黑人、西班牙裔、边境问题、这个那个问题时，这种说法特别有吸引力，因为这样你就不用承担任何个人责任了。

And when you're disaffected as a youth and somebody starts blaming the Jews, the blacks, the Hispanics, the border, this issue, that issue, it's really appealing because then you don't have to take any personal responsibility for it.

事实上，在美国大多数城市买房确实很难——除非你搬到德克萨斯、纳什维尔或佛罗里达，但那些地方又会出现房源过剩导致房价下跌的情况。

And it is, in fact, really hard to own a home in most cities in America unless you move to Texas or, you know, Nashville, Florida, and then there's too many homes and prices are going down.

他还是个孩子，会说些蠢话，但他确实触动了那些不满者的情绪。

And he's a kid, and he says stupid stuff, but he says he does tap into that disaffectedness.

塔克，既然你对这方面很了解，你会把它排在什么位置？

Where would you put it if you ranked it, Tucker, since you are pretty plugged into this?

富恩特斯的受欢迎程度是基于Roipers这类核心小圈子的追捧吗？

Is Fuentes' popularity based on the Roipers and this, like, really inside group of people who are amplifying him?

是他的言论本身，还是有外国势力在推波助澜？

Is it what he's saying, or is it, like, some foreign actors promoting him?

你如何看待他这种反常的人气现象？说完这点我们就进入下一话题。

How would you handicap his massive popularity, and then we'll move on?

我认为三个因素都在起作用。要问谁在主要推波助澜，只需看谁从中得利。

All three play a role, I would say, and if you wanna know who is primarily responsible for amplifying him, consider who benefits.

如果你想通过外交政策来抹黑美国，当然会借亲希特勒者之口说出来。

If you wanted to discredit America for, say, foreign policy, then you would put it in the mouth of someone who was pro Hitler, of course.

每次听到有人公开拥护希特勒说'我爱希特勒'，我的联邦警报器——或者说非自然警报器——就会立刻响起。

Anytime I hear someone endorsing Hitler, I love Hitler, then I'm like, you know, the Fed alarm goes off, or the inorganic alarm goes off.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

确实如此。

Exactly.

B，

B,

他是我们其他人容忍、某些人创造的体制产物，我们不该感到惊讶。

he is the product of a system that the rest of us tolerated and certain among us created, and we shouldn't be surprised.

要知道，如果你搞身份政治，迟早会出现白人身份政治。

You know, if you have identity politics, at some point you're gonna get white identity politics.

我记得差不多十年前就写过这方面的书，但完全被忽视了，不过这是不可避免的。

I think I wrote a book about this almost ten years ago, which was totally ignored, but that's inevitable.

这是必然的。

It's inevitable.

所以要解决这个问题，不是靠审查尼克·富恩特斯或他的支持者，而是要消除我们社会的种族化，建立一个公平的社会——在这里奖惩不基于你的DNA。

And so to fix it, it's not a matter of censoring Nick Fuentes or anyone who likes Nick Fuentes, it's a matter of deracializing our society and making it a fair society, where rewards or condemnation are not given on the basis of your DNA.

就像，你不可能一边那样做，一边还希望能避免卢旺达那样的悲剧，因为它注定会发生。

Like, you can't have that and hope to avoid a Rwanda because it's just gonna happen.

这是不可避免的。

It's inevitable.

部落主义是对每个社会的威胁，我不知道我们怎么忽视了这一点，但我们

Tribalism is the threat to every society, And I don't know how we lost sight of that, but we

联邦探员？

fed?

你们这些人好像在说，他是个联邦探员。

You people are sort of saying, he's a fed.

他指控你是个联邦探员。

He's accusing you of being a fed.

你知道为什么吗？

You know why?

是啊。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

关于联邦线人的事说来话长，很不幸牵扯到他。

I there's the whole fed convert I unfortunately so he it's such a long story.

就不拿这些无聊事烦你了。

Won't even bore you with it.

但他曾攻击过我父亲，所以我被激怒了，就骂他是联邦线人。

But he attacked my father at one point, so I got baited into it, and and I called him a fed.

你知道，我也不太确定。

You know, I don't I don't know.

但我确信存在这种人，而且我认为富恩特斯就是典型——让我把话说清楚。

But I do know that there are and I think that Fuentes is prime let me just be clear.

我认为他的成功主要归功于个人才能，以及他部分言论背后显而易见的真相。

I think he's primarily successful because of his talents and because of the obvious truth behind some of what he is saying, which is true.

对吧？

Right?

这个国家或任何国家的政府都应代表本国公民行事，而我们的政府没有做到，这令人愤慨。

The government of this country or any country should act on behalf of its own citizens, and ours doesn't, and that's an outrage.

所以，好吧，这确实是事实，但其中的白人身份政治部分再次是不可避免的。

So, okay, that's just true, but the white identity politics part of it, once again, is inevitable.

身份政治将催生白人身份政治。

Identity politics will give birth to white identity politics.

为什么不呢？

Why wouldn't it?

而你们试图扼杀它的努力永远不会成功，因为它们太虚伪了。

And your efforts to stamp it out will never work because they're too hypocritical.

所以，如果你不喜欢这种情况，唯一的解决办法就是消除所有身份政治，我们应该今晚就行动，因为这是通往灾难的道路。

So the only way to fix that, if you don't like it, is to eliminate all identity politics, which we should do tonight, because it's the road to disaster.

就是这样。

That's it.

我有个关于AI的问题想问塔克。

I have an AI question for Tucker.

我越来越惊讶地发现，右翼中有许多人——我会形容他们为热忱的自由市场主义者、主张低监管甚至零监管的人——却对人工智能持强烈反对态度。

I'm increasingly surprised by the number of people on the right who I would describe as ardent, free market, low regulation to no regulation folks who are very anti AI.

我只是好奇，你认为这种态度源自何处？你怎么看？

And I'm just curious, where do you think that comes from, and what do you think?

据我观察，这种态度源于他们认为风险大于收益的认知。

It comes from, so far as I can tell, the perception that the risks outweigh the benefits.

风险包括大规模失业、社会混乱（人们难以分辨事物真伪）、现实结构本身开始崩解等。

So the risks would include, you know, massive job loss, chaos where nobody sort of knows if anything is real and the fabric of reality itself begins to tear.

当然还有巨大的能源消耗、昂贵的基础设施改造，这些必然带来的破坏性影响。负面效应非常明显，更不用说AI可能完全失控甚至毁灭人类这种潜在风险。

You know, of of course, the massive energy draw and the huge and expensive infrastructure changes, that will require the disruption that will inevitably cause so, like, the downsides are super obvious, not even to mention the potential this gets completely away from us and eats us or something.

对吧？

Okay?

与之相对的潜在收益又是什么？

As weighed against the potential benefits, which are what?

我并不否认存在某些好处，比如医疗领域能更快得出诊断结论，或者消除没人想做的繁琐任务，减少文书工作等等。

And I I don't doubt that there are some, you know, coming to faster, you know, diagnostic conclusions in medicine, you know, or or you know, getting rid of tedious tasks that no one wants to do, elimination of clerical work, etcetera.

我想这些确实是优点，但比例失衡了。

I guess those are upsides, but I it's disproportionate.

在大多数非专业人士、不日常接触AI的人看来，风险不仅远超优点，更远超那些被宣传的优点。

The in the view of most people, I think, who aren't experts in this, not daily involved in it, the risks far outweigh not just the upsides, but the announced upsides.

通常我们推出新产品时，会告诉潜在买家‘这将令人惊叹’。

So typically when we roll out a new product, we tell the people we hope to buy it, like, this is gonna be amazing.

它会让你大开眼界。

It's gonna blow you away.

一旦你拥有iPhone 27之类的东西，生活的方方面面都会变得更好。

Everything about your life will be better once you get the iPhone 27 or whatever.

但AI完全没有这种宣传。

There's been none of that with AI.

完全没有。

Like, none.

官方的宣传一直是‘天啊这将改变一切’。

The announcement has been, holy This is gonna change everything.