纳斯达克CEO阿德娜·弗里德曼谈股市新时代 | 2025全入峰会

截至去年，上涨14%。过去一年间，纳斯达克股票上涨40%。五年期间，涨幅超过100%，翻了一番多。你们的表现确实势如破竹。

Over the last year to date, up 14%. Over the last year, Nasdaq shares up 40%. Over the five year period, more than doubled up over a 100%. You've been on a real tear.

她不仅常驻金融界最具影响力女性榜单，更位列全球最具影响力人物之列。

She is often on the list of not just the most influential women in finance, but just the most influential.

阿迪娜将纳斯达克转型为全球科技巨头。

Adena transformed Nasdaq into a global tech powerhouse.

阿迪娜骨子里就是个交易撮合者，而纳斯达克正是做交易生意的。

Adena is a dealmaker at her core. Nasdaq is in the business of deals.

我们致力于推动全民经济进步。

We are here to advance economic progress for all.

女士们先生们，有请纳斯达克首席执行官阿迪娜·弗里德曼。

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Nasdaq CEO, Adena Friedman.

欢迎。嘿，杰森。怎么

Welcome. Hey, Jason. How

样 感谢光临。

are Thanks for coming.

你好吗？

How are you?

嗨，查马斯。

Hi, Chamath.

你好吗

How are

见到你真是太好了。

It's great to see you.

嘿，老兄。

Hey, dude.

嘿，迪娜。太棒了。能来这里真是太好了。

Hey, Dina. Great. It's great to be here.

欢迎。感谢你能来。

Welcome. Thanks for coming out.

你今天过得真是精彩。

What a day you've been having.

是啊。所以你今天早些时候看到了一些行动，对吧？

Yeah. So you caught some of the action earlier today. Right?

是的，是的。我一直在幕后观看。看着这一切真是太棒了。

I did. I did. I've been watching from behind the scenes. It's been amazing to watch.

你一直在后台待着。有没有最喜欢的时刻或演讲者？

Had You've been hanging backstage. Did you have a favorite moment or speaker?

哦，我我我从不喜欢挑最喜欢的。在纳斯达克，我们不挑最爱。我们有很多优秀的公司，但显然，Renee是一家很棒的纳斯达克上市公司，我和Arm的交往让我对他非常了解。是的，所以我总是有很棒的对话。

Oh, I I I never like to pick favorites. At Nasdaq, we don't pick favorites. We have great companies, but obviously, Renee is a wonderful Nasdaq listed company that and I've had to know him very well with Arm. Yeah. So I would say I always have great conversations.

抱歉打断。但纳斯达克不仅仅是一个市场。我想先提出这个非常重要的问题，因为在我们之前的交谈中，我并未意识到纳斯达克不仅仅是众所周知的纳斯达克市场。或许为了观众朋友们，您

You've Sorry. But Nasdaq's more than a market. I think I wanted to start with this real important question because when when we were talking, I didn't realize that Nasdaq was more than just the Nasdaq market that we all know. Maybe just for the for the audience, you

可以简单分享一下

could just share a little bit

关于更广泛的业务范围。

more about the broader business.

当然，谢谢提问。首先，我们非常自豪于作为市场的根基。但随着业务发展壮大——在我担任CEO初期，公司年收入约250万亿美元。

Sure. Thank you. Yeah. Well, so first of all, we are really proud of our foundation as a market. But as we started to grow and expand the business, first of all, you know, when I became CEO, we had about 2 and a half million billion dollars in revenue.

截至去年底，我们的EBITDA已略超25亿美元。业务实现了显著扩张，核心策略是以市场为基础，探索如何为客户创造更多价值。我们是现代市场的构建者，不仅为旗下17个市场提供技术，还向全球135个其他市场输出解决方案。

Today or as of the end of last year, we had a little over 2 and a half billion dollars of EBITDA. So we've grown and expanded the business quite dramatically. And how we've done that is taking our core as a market and saying what more can we do for our clients. So we are an architect of modern markets. We provide our technology to our 17 markets and we sell it to a 135 other markets around the world.

全球市场基础设施是我们的主业。第二支柱是赋能创新经济，像Rene、Arm这样的优秀企业。我们指数业务目前管理着约7000亿美元资产，这些资金都与创新者紧密关联，同时我们也在提升企业驾驭公开市场的能力，帮助投资者发掘投资机会。

So market infrastructure is our business and we do that globally. Then the second is really being powering that innovation economy, like companies like Rene, you know, Arm and other great companies. So we've expanded that. So our index business now has about $700,000,000,000 of assets under management that are tied to those great innovators in addition to creating better abilities for companies to navigate the public markets and investors to find find investments.

今天贵公司有个重大公告。

And you had a big announcement today.

第三大支柱是构建金融体系信任机制，包括反金融犯罪技术、市场监控技术等银行业和经纪交易商行业必备的解决方案。没错，我们今天确实发布了重大投资...重大公告。

And then the third is is also building trust in across financial system. And that is anti financial crime technology, market surveillance technology, other technologies that the banking industry and the and the broker dealer industry really need to manage their lives in the markets. And you're right. We had a big invest we had a big a big announcement today.

Vlad刚才的发言几乎已经预示了这个消息。

Which almost Vlad foreshadowed before you actually.

是的，这实际上正呼应了我们作为现代市场构建者的首要支柱...

Yeah. And and actually it goes right back to that first pillar of being, you know, being the architect of modern

别告诉别人

don't tell people what

你觉得我们应该这么做吗？

You think we should?

是啊。

Yeah.

对，好的。今天早上我们宣布，将把代币化引入我们的市场。确保股票被代币化并在市场上交易，不是在侧边渠道，而是在核心市场内。

Yeah. Okay. So so this morning we announced that we're going to be bringing tokenization into our markets. So making sure that equities are tokenized and traded on market, in the markets, not in a side a side sleeve, but actually in the the core markets.

所以最终目标是？还是今天就实现？24/7，365天全年无休，股票交易不间断进行。

So the eventual goal or is it today? 24 by seven, three sixty five equities just let it rip constantly.

我认为我们都在朝这个方向努力。几个月前我们宣布将过渡到24/5交易。我们正在——

I mean, think we are all moving in that direction. We announced several months ago that we're moving to twenty four five. We're

24/5。

Twenty four five.

正在朝这个方向迈进。

Moving that way.

那周六、周日不交易？

So Saturday, Sunday, not?

股票交易暂时还不包括周末。我们得循序渐进。但实现24/5交易对美国股市已是重大进步。再加上代币化，如果能将其引入市场，将有助于简化交易后流程，革新市场中存在诸多摩擦的环节。要知道，我们具备极强的韧性和超大规模运营能力。

Not not for equities yet. I think that, you know, we have to we're we're walking before we run. But I think that getting to '20 four five is a major advancement for The US equities markets. And then on top of that, now with tokenization, if we can introduce that also into the markets, it allows us to really think about streamlining the post trade processing, bringing and modernizing elements of the markets that have a lot of friction. You know, we we are hyper resilient and we're hyper scaled.

要知道，我们今天的系统处理了950亿条消息，从订单到交易的中位响应时间仅为二十微秒。我们每秒处理约300万条消息，规模极其庞大。但同时，交易一旦完成，后续流程就截然不同了。正如我们所知，后交易处理环节正是代币化技术真正大放异彩的领域。

You know, we manage like today, we had 95,000,000,000 messages come into our systems today, and we had a median, you know, return time of twenty microseconds on from order to trade. We handle, like, 3,000,000 messages a second. It's hugely scaled. But then at the same time, you know, once that trade occurs, there's a different process. And then the post trade process, as we know, is an area where tokenization really shines.

真正减少摩擦、管理全球生态系统的资金流动，并将这种能力引入市场，将成为下一个我——

And really cutting down the friction, managing capital flows across the global ecosystem, and really bringing that capability into the market is gonna be the next I'm

很想听听你的看法。你知道那个著名的曲线理论吗？先是早期狂热期，接着是幻灭低谷，然后逐渐复苏。现在加密货币或者说区块链技术，是不是终于进入实用阶段了？有真实公司在做实事，比如稳定币，还有Sax通过《天才法案》的举措。

curious to get your reaction to this. You know there's this very famous curve which is like you get this early font of insanity and then there's the trough of disillusionment and then you grow through and it's is it does it seem like crypto is actually a blockchain? It's just it's finally real. It's like there's real companies doing real things, stablecoins, what Sax did with the Genius Act. It's

其实我想特别强调这点——有监管机构愿意推动其主流化并制定规则，这令人耳目一新。因为这让我们都能理解如何在兼顾投资者保护原则的世界里运作。技术应用必然存在边界，但以前瞻性思维推动技术落地才是关键。我们非常兴奋地看到传统市场与数字市场的监管框架正在融合，这将如何共同推动所有市场进步？这正是我们热切期待的。

Well, I I actually wanna point to that because, you know, honestly having regulators who want to to work on bringing it into the mainstream and wanna create the rules of the road is such a refreshing thing because I think that it allows us all to understand how we can operate within a world where there are tenants of investor protection. The technology is gonna have things we can and can't do, but also being forward thinking and forward leaning in how the technology is gonna be applied is gonna be critical. So we're very excited about the fact that we finally have this convergence of regulatory of regulation between the traditional markets, the digital markets. How do we bring it all together to frankly advance all markets? We're very very excited about that.

我并非轻率提问——过去不是有观点认为市场应在凌晨4点收盘，让人们拥有生活和睡眠，不必焦虑吗？难道未来我们要活在凌晨两点查看股价的世界？万一发生恐怖袭击或黑客事件，难道凌晨三点就得起床决定是否交易？这是当初的阻力所在吗？又如何证明'值得所有人永远失眠'的合理性？

I don't mean this to be glib or anything, but wasn't there like a concept around the markets having an end of the day at 04:00, allowing people to have a life and to sleep and to not have this anxiety? Are we all gonna live in a world where we have to check our stocks at two in the morning or some crazy event happens in the world, God forbid a terrorist attack or a hack or something? And now we've all got to wake up at three in the morning and decide do we trade or not? Was that the resistance to this? And then how do you justify it like, hey, it's gonna be worth the fact that none of us are ever gonna sleep again?

确实。我1993年加入纳斯达克时，九十年代我们就构想过24/7全天候市场。但当时技术条件不足，监管层面也未能实现。

Yeah. So so I think first of all, I've been I started at Nasdaq in 1993. And back in the nineties, we had a vision to go to twenty four seven markets. And we just couldn't achieve it both technologically. It wasn't the technology wasn't there to do it, but also regulatorily.

很大阻力来自行业呼声：'我需要结束工作回家'。实际上市场开盘收盘时点仍会存在于24小时市场中，只是区分为美国交易日与非美国交易日。我们的系统现在就是凌晨4点启动，晚上8点关闭。

And and part of a big part of that was that resistance from the industry saying, I like to be able to finish my day and go home. And actually, we need those points in the day. I mean, the market open and the market close will continue to exist in a world of twenty four five markets. But you'll have like a US trading day and you'll have non US trading day. And so and we already our systems turn on at four and they turn off at 08:00 at night.

凌晨4点到晚8点期间都有交易，但美国官方交易日仍是9:34。这个时段不会改变，因为共同基金净值核算等需要固定时点。但让全球交易这些证券——纳斯达克拥有全球市值前七的公司，纳斯达克100指数是全球交易量最大的产品之一，其期货已是24小时交易，标的资产为何不能同步？这就是我们看待非美交易时段的逻辑。

Four in the morning, 08:00. Trading occurs during that entire period of time, but the official trading days of The United States are 09:34. I don't anticipate that changing because we have to have those moments for, like, the NAVs to be set for mutual funds and things like that. But have allowing the entire world to trade these securities, I mean, we have the Nasdaq itself. We have the top seven companies in the world listed on Nasdaq.

关键在于找到交易时段与传统框架的融合点。

So Those companies are global. Investors have global interests. The Nasdaq one hundred is one of the most traded products in the world. The futures trade twenty four five, so why shouldn't the underlying? So that's how we look at those non US trading hours and then the trading hours and trying to find that confluence in the way it

现在很多人担忧上市公司数量问题，上市公司的负担让企业倾向长期保持私有化。Uber花了11年才上市，Stripe私有近15年，SpaceX也是。有人主张变革上市方式，比如Spotify就采用了直接上市。

will work. There's a lot of hand wringing about the number of companies that have gone public, the weight of being a public company, the stay private longer moment took Uber eleven long years. Stripe is private now close to fifteen years, SpaceX. So and and we have some folks who maybe think things should run differently. We had Spotify go public in a direct listing.

查马斯正在尝试SPAC（特殊目的收购公司）。IPO市场应该呈现怎样的面貌？既然我们现在有了一个或许更积极、少打盹的政府，我们该如何改革，让IPO市场及其流程发生变化，以鼓励企业不再长期保持私有化？因为目前所有收益都被精英阶层、合格购买者所攫取。合格投资者几乎难以参与，更遑论普通大众。

You have Chamath experimenting with SPACs. What should the IPO market look like? And how can we make it, now that we have a government that's maybe a little more engaged, let's say, and less napping as administration? How should the IPO market change and that process change to encourage people to maybe not stay private so long because all the gains are being captured by the elites, by the qualified purchasers. The accredited investors can barely get in and let alone the public.

等到公众能参与时，感觉就像是‘哦，我终于能投资Instacart了’，但接下来一两年甚至三年它可能都会表现平平。

By the time the public gets in, it does feel like, oh, I'm getting into Instacart and it's gonna go sideways for a year or two or three.

是的。首先，我认为有必要提醒我们所有人，公开市场对经济为何如此重要。企业上市后，能接触到数十亿投资者，每个国民都有机会成为经济体的所有者。看看纳斯达克100指数过去四十年的表现，其年均回报率高达14.25%。

Yeah. So I mean, first of all, I think it's really good to remind all of our, you know, all of us why the public markets are so important for the economy. When a company goes public, they get access to billions of investors. And every citizen in this country gets a chance to become an owner in the economy. And when we look at just the performance of the Nasdaq 100 over forty years of its existence, the average return on the Nasdaq one hundred over those forty years is a 14.25% annual return.

这是大盘指数的两倍。

That's double the broad market.

这是个惊人的回报率。

It's an incredible return.

没错。

Yeah.

如果个人投资者能接触到这些优秀企业——就像你几周前在播客中展示的公开市场表现那样——这将是让民众参与经济发展与成功的重要途径。我一直相信公开与私募市场的平衡，二者都有理由繁荣并为所有人创造价值。但如今上市体验已成沉重负担，我们称之为‘跨越卢比孔河’，对企业和CEO而言这个决策变得极其艰难。

If if if comp you know, if individuals have access to these great companies, as you know, saw your your pod a few weeks ago showing the performance of the public markets. It's it's such an important part of our economy to engage the population in the economy and the growth of the economy and the success of the economy. So I've always believed in the balance between public and private markets. I think there are reasons for them both to thrive and be great great for everyone, but the public market experience has become this massive, you know, burden. And I think that we call it like, you have to cross the Rubicon to become public, and it's become very daunting for com for CEOs and companies to to take that decision.

为此我们与SEC等机构密切探讨如何减轻负担，使其不再像翻天覆地的变革。我们倡导披露改革、代理权改革和诉讼改革，这些环节差异过大，本不该如此。

So we have talked very closely with the SEC and others about what can we do to lighten the load to make it so that it's not such a huge change. We've we've advocated for changes in disclosure reforms, proxy reform, litigation reform. All of those things, they're such a different existence. It shouldn't be so different.

这些负担真能提升上市公司质量吗？能降低欺诈率吗？

Does the burden actually improve the quality of the companies that are public? Does it improve the fraud rates?

这是个好问题。我认为某些披露要求确实存在合理依据，披露本身具有净化作用。但现行要求远超出投资者做出明智决策所需的信息量。

Is it It's a good question. And I actually do think that you will find that there is really good valid reasons for certain disclosures. I think disclosure is a cleansing, you know, as a as a cleansing event. But and so having the but there's so they have to disclose so much more than that's actually necessary for an investor to make a smart investment decision.

但我发现

But what I find

剥离那些表象，回归核心信息披露。然后提供多种进入公开市场的途径。我们与比尔等人密切合作推进的直接上市融资方案——为何不采用这种方式？如今我们已具备这种能力。

strip that away and get back to the core disclosures. And then offering different ways to actually enter the public markets. We think the direct listing we've actually worked closely with Bill and others on a direct listing with a capital raise. Like, why not have that? We have that ability today.

此外SPAC是另一条通往公开市场的路径。长期来看，我们希望将ICO引入——坦白说这本质上就是代币化的直接上市。我们如何整合这些能力进入市场，让企业感到振奋？

And so and then SPACs are another another avenue to public markets. ICOs over time, we'd like to kinda bring that as a that to me is frankly a direct listing, a tokenized direct listing. So how do we bring all those capabilities into the markets and make them available and make these companies feel like it's exciting?

这需要SEC持有者...容我追问一点。这要求SEC承担更多风险，但他们似乎是极端风险厌恶的机构，行事非常保守。您认为他们是否需要调整策略，变得更前瞻些？

What that requires the SE holder, just sort of one follow-up if I Yeah. That requires the SEC to take a little bit more risk, and they seem like an organization that is incredibly risk off and you know, very conservative in their approach. Did they need to change their approach to be a little bit more forward thinking in your mind?

首先，我要说主席阿德金斯...与他的首次会面令人惊叹。他很出色，具有前瞻性思维，渴望推动变革，想让IPO重现辉煌。

Well, First of all, would say that chair Adkins is My first meeting with him was just amazing. He's great. You know, he is forward leaning. He wants to create change. He wants to make IPOs great again.

他既想真正支持公开市场，同时也在审视成熟市场结构中那些是否必须存在的元素。此外他大力拥抱加密生态系统，探讨哪些部分可实现监管融合，如何为加密市场和证券代币化市场建立监管路径。

He wants to to really support the public markets while also frankly looking at elements of the market structure in the established markets and saying, does this all need to exist? Because there's a lot of there's a lot of that too. And then also really embracing the crypto ecosystem to say, what elements of this could be brought in that regulatory convergence is real? You know, how can we create a a regulatory road for crypto markets? How can we actually create a regulatory road for tokenized securities markets?

这些领域如何实现转化？

How do these things kind of convert?

我能请教您...

Well, can I can I ask you?

他是...我得说他开局非常出色。

He's a he's he's a great I mean, I would say he's off to a great start.

除股票市场外，当前交易量最大的流动性池——无论是实际代币、永续合约还是加密市场本身——按理说你们或其他机构会想参与，为何没有？

Outside of the equity markets, the biggest liquid pools that are trading right now, whether it's the actual tokens or perps or what have you, or the crypto markets themselves, it would seem relatively logical that you guys or others would wanna play in that game and why don't you?

我认为阻碍我们的主要原因是监管规则不明确。纳斯达克非常擅长运营受监管的市场。如果让我们进入一个完全不受监管的领域，那将是截然不同的局面，风险承受度要高得多。我们始终坚持投资者保护至上的原则。

Mean I think what's held us back is the lack of regulatory clarity. I I say that Nasdaq is really good at operating regulated markets. And so you ask us to go into a completely unregulated space, that's a pretty different existence. The risk tolerance is much higher. We want to make I mean, we are always investor protection first, always.

那么我们如何在确保为投资者建立公平公正结构的同时，又能成为真正的创新者？我们已将市场迁移到云端，将大量现代技术引入市场，但在有明确规则时我们才能发挥最佳水平。目前华盛顿正在酝酿的正是这类规则，这让我们有机会参与一个此前无法涉足的市场。

So how do we make sure that we create the right structure with fairness and equality for for investors while also being really big innovators? You know, we've moved our markets to cloud. We've kind of really brought forth a lot of modern technology into markets, but we also operate best when we have the rules of the road. What's happening now in Washington is the potential for rules of the road, and that gives us an opportunity to participate in a market that really has not been available to us.

如果联邦政府能明确这些规则，你们是否就能与Coinbase、币安、OKX这些平台竞争，甚至包括去中心化交易所？

And is that something that if the federal government just creates that clarity, you know, you could compete with Coinbase, you can compete with Binance, you can compete with OKX, you can compete with the decentralized

我想说的是，我们更希望与机构客户合作，因为他们也一直未能或不愿进入这些市场。我们的风险偏好相似。如果能将机构生态系统引入加密资产领域，将代币化引入证券资产...

I I would say that what we would wanna do is really work with our institutional clients because they also have not been able or willing to play in the markets. Their risk tolerance has we have a similar profile. So if we can actually bring the institutional ecosystem into crypto assets, we bring tokenization into securities assets.

所以你们

So you

这将是我们推动市场发展、使其主流化的绝佳方式。在这个生态系统中，百花齐放的局面很可能会出现。

That's a really interesting way for us to play a role in in really helping evolve these markets and and bring them to the mainstream. And whether you know, many flowers will bloom in that in that ecosystem.

你们目前所有市场都是股票市场，这些证券代表着对实体企业资产的权益。企业有买卖行为，雇佣员工，开展业务。但如今预测市场和加密市场的大部分交易量并不涉及底层资产。

You you today, all of your markets are equities. These are securities that have secured interest in an in an underlying business asset. There's a business that's buying and selling stuff and has employees and Yeah. Does stuff. But much of what we see the volume today in prediction markets and crypto markets, there aren't underlyings.

这些交易本质上是对某些价值的观点表达，比如预测市场中的事件。传统上需要通过股票交易来参与这类事件。预测市场是否创造了一种新的投资理念表达方式，可能成为股票交易方式的超集？还是说这两种方式本质不同——拥有企业权益与持有某个观点根本是两回事？

These are there's there's a there's a point of view on some value of, for example, in the prediction markets an event. And historically, you'd have to figure out a way to play that event with some equity trade. Does the do the prediction markets actually kind of create a new way to express investment thesis that are kind of gonna perhaps be a super set of the way we trade equities? Or are these just fundamentally different, that owning an interest in a business is different than having a point of view on a thesis?

必须指出，期权市场本身就是预测市场。我们运营着美国最大的期权交易所，非常关注这类交易模式——你是在判断标的股票的走势方向，但实际交易的并非股票本身。期权就是我们预测市场的绝佳体现。不同之处在于预测市场是非黑即白的二元选择，而期权市场可以在不同价格点和期限上分层下注。

I mean, I I have to say the options markets are as much a prediction market as as the other prediction markets. So we own and operate the largest options marketplace in United States. And so we are really, you know, we're very engaged in looking at how do you think about you you are making a decision as to what the direction of travel in an in an underlying equity, but you're not actually trading in the underlying equity. So options are, I think, a great reflection of our prediction market. The difference though is that in a prediction market, it's a binary yes, no versus an option market, you're laying you're layering in your bets across multiple price points and different durations.

顺便说，当今期权市场有150万种行权价。某种程度上，预测市场让这类押注对更多人更易参与，因为期权市场相当复杂，而预测市场更简单。这是个机遇，而且我很高兴SEC和CFTC正在联手更全面地审视这些市场。

There's, by the way, a million and a half strikes in the in the options markets today. But so it's I think that in in some ways, prediction markets make these types of these types of bets, you know, more accessible to more people because the options markets are quite complex. Prediction markets are a little bit more simple. So there is an opportunity, and I I think it's also good that the SEC and the CFTC, by the way, are joining forces to think about these markets much more comprehensively.

好的。

Okay.

因为如果我们能将这种监管模式推广到各个市场，使更多这类资产类别更易于接触，我认为这对所有人都有利。

Because if we can bring that regulatory paradigm across the markets and make more more of these type of asset classes more accessible, I think that's good for everyone.

或许你可以谈谈私募市场及正在发生的二级销售。SPV（特殊目的载体）正蓬勃发展。我们今天早些时候听到Vlad谈及OpenAI和SpaceX的代币化。我记得当孙正义想在Uber还是私营公司时大量收购其股份时，他们是通过纳斯达克完成的。我猜是通过Second Market？

Maybe you could talk about private markets and the secondary sales that are occurring. There's an SPV boom. We heard Vlad talk earlier today about tokenizing OpenAI and SpaceX. And I know when Masayoshi san wanted to buy a bunch of Uber when it was a private company, they did that through Nasdaq. And I guess Second Market?

是的。纳斯达克私募市场。

Yeah. Nasdaq Private Market.

纳斯达克私募市场，是通过收购Second Market而来的。

Nasdaq Private Markets, which came through the acquisition for Second Market.

没错。确实如此。

That's right. It did.

如果我没记错历史的话。

If I remember my history correct.

记得很准。

That's pretty good.

那么你如何看待这些机会并积极把握它们？我猜你们会受邀参与其中，人们会聘请你们操作。但为OpenAI股份、SpaceX股份或Stripe股份做市又如何呢？

So how do you think about those opportunities and aggressively going after them right now? I I I take it you are invited into those and people hire you to do that. But what about making markets for an OpenAI share or SpaceX shares or Stripe shares?

我认为在纳斯达克私募市场中，我们首要关注的是以发行人为先，以及如何与这些私营公司合作。它们是私营公司有其原因——希望掌控股东基础，同时又要为员工、早期投资者等创造流动性。而这些私募股份背后确实形成了二级市场。

So I think the first thing we focus on in Nasdaq private market is being issuer first and how we work with work with these private companies. So, you know, they are private companies and they're private for a reason. They wanna have control over their shareholder base. And yet they wanna create liquidity for their employees, early investors, etcetera. And there is a second market that is created on the back of these private shares.

那么我们如何与他们合作，以公平的方式实现这一点，以便我们能将他们介绍给他们希望加入资本表的其他投资者？SPV（特殊目的载体）是一种解决方案。你可以将公司中的大量财富权益整合起来，通过知名机构创建一个SPV，这样该机构就成为所有者。记住，财富客户并非股份的实际所有者，他们是持有股份的SPV的所有者。

So how do we work with them to allow that to happen in a fair way to make it so that we can introduce them to other other investors that they wanna have in their cap table? SPVs are a way to do that. You can roll up a lot of wealth interests in a company and create an SPV through a known institution, and so the institution becomes the owner. Remember, the the, you know, the wealth clients are not actual owners of the shares. They're owners of the SPV that are owners of the shares.

但让发行方最终决定是否邀请这些投资者加入，我认为在私募背景下确实非常重要。你知道吗？这正是纳斯达克私募市场与其他私募领域服务商的不同之处——我们始终与发行方保持合作伙伴关系。

But letting the issuer have the the ultimate decision on whether or not they invite those issue those investors in, I think is actually really important in the private context. You know? And that's that's kind of part of, I I believe, is what makes Nasdaq private market different than other providers in the private space is we always partner with the issuer.

因为他们基本上是在单干。有时他们会绕过那些公司的CFO和CEO行事，这确实会惹恼他们。

Because they're going rogue, basically. They're going around the backs of the CFO and CEO of those companies at times, and it does piss them off.

是的。我认为必须始终认识到，发行方——尤其是私营公司——对股东人选非常审慎。让他们作为私营公司继续保持这种审慎。一旦进入公开市场，你就需要面对公众投资者，那是另一种责任。嗯。

Yeah. I I think it's important always to realize that, you know, the the issuers, the companies, especially private companies, are being very mindful of who they have as owners. Let's let them continue to do that as private companies. Once you enter the public market, then you've got public investors, and that's a diff it is a different responsibility. Mhmm.

向数十亿人开放投资渠道确实存在不同风险。但我认为同时也应因此提供信息披露。所以在私募市场中，我们要确保对此保持一定的控制。

And there is different risk that that's involved in opening the aperture to billions of people. But I think and there should be disclosures also provided as a result of that. So in this in that private marketplace, let's make sure that we we keep some controls in place around that.

是的。股市已基本从个股选择转向指数基金的绝对主导。嗯。这在某种程度上压缩了回报率。现在市场上很难找到超额收益机会。

Yeah. The stock market has mostly flipped from individual stock pickers to just an absolute abundance of index funds. Mhmm. It kind of compresses returns in some way. It's hard to find like a lot of alpha in the market.

前七八家公司占据了整个市场的巨大比重。当你看到这种结构性现象时，结合你三十年的经验，这对周期阶段意味着什么？

You have an enormous concentration with the top seven, eight, or nine companies as a percentage of the overall market. When you see these kinds of structural things, what does it tell you about the moment of the cycle? Because you you've seen it now for thirty years.

确实如此。首先，我认为指数投资的兴起总体上让投资更易获得。这是一种非常低成本、易接触且流动性高的方式，可以把握某个行业、回报模式或主题，而无需挑选个股。

Yeah. Yeah. I have. Well, first of all, I I think that the rise of index investing is making investing more accessible in general. It's a very, very inexpensive, very accessible, and very liquid way to have a view into a sector or a return profile or a theme and not have to pick stocks.

作为散户投资者，要成为选股高手很难。这需要大量时间。我曾尝试教我十几岁的儿子——他当时很想学——我必须教他如何阅读S-1或10-K报表。

And, you know, as as as retail investors, it's hard to sit there and be a stock picker. It takes a lot of time. I tried to I worked with my son when he was a teenager. He really wanted to do it. So I had to teach him how to read an s one or a 10 k.

这很不容易。需要投入时间。是的。但指数确实让投资变得更易获得。不过我也同意，必须同时平衡主动管理策略。

It's That's tough. Spend some time on it. Yeah. But but indexes give makes, I think, investing much more accessible. However, I also agree with you that you also have to balance it with active management.

你必须拥有积极的投资者。我的意思是，归根结底，我常说市场中被动与不活跃之间存在一种平衡。当这种平衡向被动倾斜时，就会为主动投资者创造套利机会。如果羊群效应真的开始将股票推向某个方向，主动管理者就应该介入并利用这种套利。但真正的核心在于，Chamath，纳斯达克100指数或这些创新公司之所以表现如此出色，是有原因的。

You have to have active investors. I mean, at the end of the day, I always say that there's a balance between the passive and inactive world within the markets. And whenever it skews towards the passive, what happens is that that creates arbitrage opportunities for the active. If the herd really kind of starts to move the socks in a certain direction, the active managers should step in and take advantage of that arbitrage. But the the real foundation of it though, Chamath, is this that the, you know, the Nasdaq 100 or these innovative companies are they are performing the way they're performing for a reason.

要跑赢指数变得非常困难，因为这些公司实在太强大了。很难找到比它们回报更高的公司。我认为这正是主动管理面临困境的原因——他们试图超越一个基准，但这个基准本身极具吸引力。

And it becomes very difficult to beat the index because these companies are so very hard. It's hard to find companies that deliver a better return than they do. And I think that's where active management has has struggled just because they are trying to beat a benchmark, but that benchmark is so such an attractive benchmark.

让我问一个与纳斯达克无关的问题。您作为纽约联储董事会成员，从您的视角和资本市场角色来看，您认为去美元化趋势正在形成吗？刚出炉的央行储备报告显示，美元计价资产（我认为是国债）占比从60%降至40%，而黄金从10%升至20%，过去十年加速明显。中国显然在减持美债。您如何看待当前财政支出状况、央行对美元资产的兴趣变化及其对市场的影响？

Let me ask a question unrelated to Nasdaq. Your role on the board of the New York Fed, from where you sit and and and your role in capital markets, do you think that there is a trend of de dollarization underway? There's a report that just came out on central bank holdings that have shown dollar denominated, I think it was treasuries declining from 60 to 40%, gold going from 10 to 20% over just the last decade with some acceleration perhaps underway. Obviously, China's selling down treasuries. What's your view on where we are with respect to spending, with respect to central bank interest in in in dollar denominated assets and what that implies for our markets?

首先，我坚信美元作为储备货币的地位，并且这种地位将长期持续。美国经济实力雄厚，法治和稳定性为全球提供的锚定作用将继续支撑美元。不过当投资者看到风险显现时，他们会用行动表态。

Yeah. I mean, think first of all, I am a huge believer in dollar as a reserve currency and the fact we will be persistent as a reserve currency over a long period of time. I think our economy is just is such a powerhouse. I think that the rule of law and the stability that we have and that we deliver to the world is going to continue to provide that anchor for for the dollar to be the reserve currency. But, you know, investors will express themselves if they see certain risks starting to manifest.

正如你们常讨论的，我认为美国债务问题已开始影响市场。如果投资者认为美债的风险调整后回报不及其他货币或债券，他们就会寻求替代品。我信任美国经济有能力渡过难关，而你们持续探讨这个问题实际上有助于推动解决方案。

I do think as we've you guys talk about a lot, you know, the amount of debt that we have in the country is something that is we're starting to see manifest itself in the markets, and we'll make it so that they look for alternatives if they feel like the return characteristics of a of a treasury are different than what they could get in another the risk weighted returns versus other currencies or other treasuries. They're they're going to express themselves. I I believe in The US. I feel like I believe in the power of The US economy to work its way through this. I believe that you guys talking about it a lot is actually gonna help us make ourselves work our way through it.

美联储呢？

Is the Fed?

我认为美联储坚定维护美元储备货币地位。根据我的接触，他们对您提及的问题并未表现出重大担忧。

And the Fed I think the Fed is staunch believer in the reserve currency. I don't think that they have any, you know, at least my experience with them is that they don't have any significant concerns that have arisen from what you talked about.

您认为美联储存在数据问题吗？我之前提过这个担忧——劣质输入导致劣质决策，他们可能无法获取最优质的数据。坦白说，最优数据往往被某些公司视为竞争优势而保密。我好奇美联储究竟能在多大程度上洞察真实市场动向？

Do you think that there's a data issue at the Fed? You know, I've talked about this before. I just I worry that, you know, sort of bad inputs, bad decisions, and they don't necessarily benefit from the best of what's available. And quite frankly, the best of what's available is, you know, held close by certain companies and not really shared broadly because that they think is their edge. So I'm just curious how enabled the Fed is to actually see the tea leaves and actually see what's actually happening on the field.

就我个人观察而言，美联储极度数据驱动。他们整合各类数据源——包括不对外公开的私有数据库。虽然这些不会共享，但确实是决策参考因素。他们每十天就会...

I I can only say, I mean, I I can just speak from my own experience. The the Fed is very data driven. They get sources of data, private source of data, public sources of data. They'll get private databases of information that they're not gonna disclose or they're not gonna share with others as an input. But there are many, many inputs that they take into consideration, And they share every 10 days.

...进行市场和经济形势更新，以此把握经济脉搏。他们对数据极为重视，也会采纳新数据源。如果发现有用信息，肯定会纳入考量，但不会因此取代其他所有分析维度。

We go through and understand a market update, economic update to help us understand and frame what's happening in the economy, and they use that data. They're, you know, they're quite wedded to understanding the data. But they'll take in new sources. If new sources become available or they find something that could be useful, they will absolutely take that into consideration, but it won't supplant everything else that they're looking at.

你是否对美联储保持独立性有所担忧？我们看到本届政府施加了一些压力，过去其他政府也有类似行为。但总体而言，你对美联储及其独立性、重要性以及其职责有何看法？

Do you have concerns about the Fed remaining independent? We've seen a bit of pressure from this administration. We've seen it from other administrations in the past. But what are your thoughts broadly on the Fed and independence and the importance of that and their mandate?

是的。我是说，我知道甚至存在一场辩论...

Yeah. I mean, I know there's a a debate, you know, even in

健康辩论。对。

Health debate. Yeah.

关于这一点，我会称之为健康辩论。我确实持有观点。我认为近二百五十年来，我们一直受益于美联储的独立性。重要的是让美联储能够长远思考，这就是为什么美联储主席任期是六年——要比单个政治周期更长远地思考，并且要依赖数据。

A health debate, I would say, on that point. I do have a point of view. I do think that the Fed we've benefited for almost two hundred fifty years on having Fed independence. I think that it's important to to have allow the Fed to think long term, and that's why the term of the Fed chair is six years. Like, to think longer term than through an individual political cycles and to be data dependent.

我同意，托马斯，应该提供新的数据来源，让美联储能持续做出明智决策。就美联储内部的决策而言，独立性使他们能够透过经济中的诸多噪音，进行长远思考。他们每次都能做出完美决定吗？当然不。

And I agree, Tomas, like, there should be new sources of data that are made available to allow the Fed to continue to make those smart decisions. But and I think in terms of the decision making within the Fed, that independence allows them to to look through a lot of different noise in the economy and to think longer term. Are they gonna make perfect decisions every time? No.

他们...我是说，

Are they I mean, with

以2020年的后见之明，我们都可以回头说，哦，我们本可以做得不同。

twenty twenty hindsight, we could all look back and say, oh, we would have done it differently.

根据你的经验，他们是一个受政治驱动的机构吗？

Are they a political politically driven organization in your experience?

是的。我的观点和经验是，这是一个高度数据驱动、非常非政治化的机构。纽约联储一直非常专注于观察经济，关注市场价格...

Yeah. My purse my perspective and my experience is that it is a very data driven, very apolitical. I mean, the New York Fed has been very very focused on just looking at the economy, looking at the market pride

这一点，我理解了。

in that, I take it.

对此深感自豪。他们确实经历了截然不同的政治周期。我在那里工作了近六年，而货币政策评估始终保持着非常稳健的节奏，非常稳定。同时他们还采取了许多措施来调控经济。

A huge amount of pride in that. And they have you know, there's definitely I mean, they've they've gone through some very different political cycles. I I've been there for almost six years. And and yet it's been a very steady process of evaluating the monetary policy, very steady. While they also do a lot to operate the economy.

这相当酷。

It's pretty cool.

是的。你认为我们是否需要更多考虑美联储为市场参与者提供的潜在杠杆？具体来说，我曾说过，我担心我们将经济过度金融化，以至于对冲基金可以承担如此高的杠杆——即使你管理着六七万亿美元的资金，做多一万亿，虽然现在一万亿已不如从前值钱，但仍是巨额数字。如果爆仓或出问题，真的可能破坏美国的基础设施。而现在似乎又缺乏强有力的制衡机制——尽管全球金融危机后的几年里我们曾建立过这种机制，因为大家都被那次危机烧怕了。

Yeah. Do you think that we need to think more about the underlying leverage that the Fed enables in market participants and specifically, you know, I've said this, I I worry that we financialize so much of the the economy that, you know, hedge funds. They can take on so much leverage that even if you have, you know, $6,070,000,000,000, you're running a trillion long, and you know, a trillion is not what it used to be, but it's still a lot of money where you can really screw up the infrastructure of America if you blow up or if, you know, things go wrong. And there just doesn't seem to be this robust check and balance anymore yet again. I mean we had it for a few years coming out of the GFC because everybody was so burned by it.

但如果你观察所有这些风险指标，很多都显示这些机构正在高杠杆运作。不知道从你的视角是否也看到了这一点？

But I think that all these risk measures, if you look at them, many of them say, you know, a lot of these folks are running very levered. So I don't know if you see that from your vantage point, if

作为纳斯达克CEO，我们确实能看到这种现象——虽然在我们直接监管的生态系统中不太明显，但确实存在高杠杆的ETF等产品。在受监管市场之外的加密货币领域，杠杆也很高。衍生品市场同样如此。不过证券生态系统内部有许多制衡机制会促使市场回归均值，SEC对进入公开市场的高杠杆产品也有监管。至于美联储如何看待杠杆，我认为他们关注的核心是真正可能引发系统性风险的因素。

you have I mean certainly, Nasdaq, as the CEO of Nasdaq, we do see it in not so much in our specific ecosystem, although there are, you know, highly levered, let's say, ETFs and other things like that. Certainly, outside the regulated markets in the crypto space, there's a lot of leverage there too. In the derivatives market, there is. But so but at the same time, I think there are a lot of checks and balances within the securities ecosystem that that forces us to go back towards the mean, and there is an oversight that the SEC has on what levered products at least brought into the public markets. In terms of the Fed and looking at levered, I think that the way that they focus it is what really truly creates systemic risk.

而全球金融危机...

And the GFC to

相形见绌的那种

pale kind

全球金融危机真正揭示出：某些银行通过特定资本运作方式会引发系统性风险。他们认为目前已解决了很多这类问题。虽然部分活动转移到了他们无法完全控制的银行体系之外，但他们认为风险已足够分散，不会必然导致系统性风险——比如出现'大而不能倒'的对冲基金。

of thing. The GFC really introduced the fact that the there are certain banks that introduce systemic risk by capitalizing the banks the way they have. They feel like they've addressed a lot of that. And, yes, some of that activity moves off outside the banking system that they don't necessarily have complete control over, but their view is that it's distributed enough that it doesn't necessarily create systemic risk or having it too big to fail hedge fund for instance. Right.

这就是他们管理这类风险的方式。杠杆本就是金融体系的组成部分，但我们也都需要思考各自对杠杆程度应承担的责任。

But that's that's that's how they kind of manage that that risk. I, you know, leverage is all part of the system, but we also think there's a responsibility we all have to think about how much

你认为当前所有市场中最大的风险在哪里？商业地产违约率上升及其可能引发的连锁反应被广泛讨论，还有私募信贷领域。

Where do you see the biggest risk in the market today? All markets. So All there's there's a lot of talk about climbing defaults in commercial real estate and the catalyzing effect that may result from delinquency rates starting to climb. We're private credit.

我能否直言，这个问题我已听闻多年？而且我认为银行方面，就其投资组合中持有大量房地产而言，他们一直在积极处理。确实，当我们进入利率可能开始下降的环境时，我相信许多相关压力将会缓解。此外，人们正陆续重返办公室。商业地产正在经历一个周期，但这个周期将与以往不同。

Can I just say I've heard about this now for several years? And I also would say that the banks, you know, to the extent they have a lot of real estate in their portfolio, they've been working through that. I do think that as we start to be in an environment where we can start to see rates come down, I think that there'll be a lot of pressure that's eased off of some of those those concerns. And, you know, people are also coming back to work. Like, you know, commercial real estate's going through a cycle, but it's not it's it's gonna go through a different cycle.

但我认为许多银行已着手解决这些问题，并且管理得相当出色。美国有超过5000家银行，风险其实是相当分散的。所以

So but I do think that a lot of banks have been working through those issues and have been managing actually quite well. We have over 5,000 banks in this country, so it's also, again, it's pretty distributed risk. So

我明天要去买股票。

I'm gonna go buy stocks tomorrow.

我觉得这是个

I think that's a

好主意。

great idea.

大家都在加入

Everyone was joining

我并感谢

me and thanking

塔蒂娜·弗里德曼今天莅临现场。

Tatina Friedman for being here today.

谢谢。多谢。

Thank you. Thanks.

听起来很棒。谢谢。感谢。

Sounds great. Thank you. Thank you.