李翊云：《无法愈合的伤口》

欢迎来到《一切皆有》。

Welcome to All There Is.

无论你正经历怎样的悲痛，你都不孤单，我很高兴你在这里。

Wherever you are in your grief, you're not alone, and I'm glad you're here.

几天后是我哥哥的生日。

It's my brother's birthday in a couple days.

这又是日历上我一向最害怕的日子之一。

It's another one of those days in the calendar that I've always dreaded.

卡特·库珀将在1月27日满61岁。

Carter Cooper would be turning 61 on January 27.

他23岁时自杀了。

He killed himself when he was 23.

让我难以置信的是，已经过去三十八年了，但他去世的方式、那场恐怖与暴力，依然在我心中掩盖了他生命的全部。

It's incredible to me that it has been thirty eight years and still how he died, the horror of it, the violence, it overshadows everything about his life for me.

我不希望如此，我希望能有一天不再如此。

And I wish that wasn't the case, and I hope that one day it won't be.

我最近在All There Is Live上做了一期直播节目，平台是cnann.com/allthereis，采访了一位名叫克里斯西·凯的妈妈，她的儿子福雷斯特六年前自杀离世。

I spoke recently on All There Is Live, my streaming show on cnann.com/allthereis, with a mom named Chrissy Kay whose son, Forrest, died by suicide six years ago.

她谈到，今年她的悲痛发生了变化，让她能够再次看到儿子生前的样子，而不仅仅是他离世时的模样。

And she talked about how her grief this year has changed in a way that allows her to see her son again as he was, not just as he died.

今年，好像发生了一些变化。

This year, like, a change happened.

并不是说有什么特别的事件发生，比如‘哦，今年一切都不同了’。

It wasn't like there was, like, this precipitating event like, oh, now things are different this year.

我进入九月时，胃不再绞痛，也没有那种挥之不去的恐惧感。

I entered September without my gut twisting, without, like, having this feeling of dread.

我当时想，这真奇怪。

And I was like, this is curious.

我到底怎么了？

I what's going on here?

然后我继续感受到的不只是平静，而是真正的好——我能以以前无法做到的方式感受到他，不是通过什么征兆，而是一种纯粹的爱。

And then I continued to feel not just okay, but, like, good that I was feeling him in ways that I haven't been able to and not like not like signs, but just like like love.

就像，我只是突然意识到，哦，我现在能接触到你了吗？

Like, it just I'm like, oh, I can I can reach you now?

无论你以什么形式出现，我都能在这里找到你。

I can find you here however you appear.

我在心里找到了你。

I find you in my heart.

以前，我觉得记住他的关键在于找到他。

And before I feel like it was the anchor to him ended up being, like, finding him.

那种联结就是我的锚点。

That was the anchor.

那种羁绊，就是我脑海中最清晰、不会消退的关于他的记忆，因为创伤总会制造一种微妙的纽带。

That tether was, like, the closest memory of him that I had that wouldn't fade because trauma likes to make a nice little bond there.

而今年，我想我终于明白，我不需要那种方式来记住他，因为他远不止是他去世时的样子，也不只是找到他的过程或那些相关的情感。

And this year, I I think I finally realized I don't need that to remember him because he was more than how he died or finding him or all those feelings tied with it.

真正重要的是，和他在一起时的感觉，以及我知道他多么爱我们。

It's really about what it felt like to be with him and knowing how much he loved us.

而且，我一直都没能抓住它，直到今年，我也说不清为什么。

And, like and and I it escaped my grasp this whole time until this year, and I can't tell you why.

但它现在就在那里，这是一种礼物，感觉太棒了。

But it's here, and it's a gift, and it feels amazing.

我希望有一天，通过努力，我能以同样的方式看待我的弟弟卡特。

I hope one day with work, I can see my brother Carter in that same way.

今天做客播客的嘉宾是著名作家李恩，她失去了两个儿子，他们都死于自杀，她将这段经历写进了新书《自然中的事物 merely 生长》。

My guest today on the podcast is an acclaimed writer, Eun Lee, who lost both her sons to suicide and writes about it in a new book, Things in Nature Merely Grow.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

本期播客内容涉及自杀话题。

Today's podcast includes mentions of suicide.

如果你正经历危机或情绪困扰，可以拨打988联系国家自杀预防生命线。

And if you're in crisis or distress, you can call 988 to reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.

它提供全天候免费且保密的支持。

It provides free and confidential support 24 a day.

今天做客节目的嘉宾是获奖作家、普林斯顿大学创意写作教授李恩。

My guest today is Eun Lee, an award winning author and a professor of creative writing at Princeton.

她已出版多部广受好评的小说和回忆录。

She's written a number of highly acclaimed novels and memoirs.

她最新的作品名为《自然中的事物 merely 生长》，讲述的是她两个孩子因自杀离世的故事。

Her latest is called Things in Nature Merely Grow, and it's about the death of both her children by suicide.

她的儿子文森特于2017年16岁时自杀身亡。

Her son Vincent killed himself in 2017 when he was 16.

她的儿子詹姆斯于2024年去世时年仅19岁。

Her son James was 19 when he died in 2024.

有时人们问我，你现在处于哀悼的哪个阶段？她写道，我怀疑他们是否真正理解失去亲人的含义。

Sometimes people ask me where I am in the grieving process she writes and I wonder whether they understand anything at all about losing someone.

我不希望我的悲伤有个终点，她说。

I don't want an endpoint to my sorrow, she says.

孩子的死亡不是热浪或暴风雪，不是一场需要冲过并获胜的障碍赛，也不是可以康复的急性或慢性疾病。

The death of a child is not a heat wave or a snowstorm, nor an obstacle race to rush through and win, nor an acute or chronic illness to recover from.

悲伤不过是一个词，一个捷径，是对远比这个词更宏大事物的简化。

What is grief but a word, a shortcut, a simplification of something much larger than that word.

想到我的孩子们，她写道，就像空气，像时间。

Thinking about my children she writes is like air, like time.

只要我生命尚未终结，我就无法停止思考他们。

Thinking about them will only end when I reach the end of my life.

我早些时候与李恩丽进行了交谈。

I sat down with Lee Eun Lee earlier.

关于孩子因自杀而离世这件事，我想大多数人第一反应都会说：这些父母到底对孩子做了什么错事？

The thing about children died from suicide is I think most people, the first thing they would say is, What wrong did these parents do to the children?

他们是什么样的怪物？

What kind of monsters are they?

这是一个非常自然的问题。

And that's a very natural question.

没人问的问题是：在失去孩子之前，那些父母为孩子做了什么？

The question that nobody asks is, What have those parents done to help the children before they lost their children?

文森特去世后，我与那些失去孩子的父母谈过。

I talked to parents who lost their children to suicide after Vincent died.

这些父母，我们所有人，都曾看到过迹象，知道孩子内心正在经历什么，我们都尽了最大努力。

And all these parents, all of us, we saw signs, we knew things were going on in our children's minds, we did as much as we could.

但作为父母，我们是有限的，我们总是有限的。

But we parents were limited, we are always limited.

我认为当父母是最受限制的工作。

I think being a parent is the most limiting job.

有时人们会对我们感到不安，感到不适。

Sometimes people feel spooked by us and there's a discomfort.

我接受，没人知道该说什么。

And I accept no one knows what to say.

如果是我，我也不会知道该说什么。

I would not have known what to say either.

但我觉得，当人们不知道该说什么时，他们会说出最糟糕的话。

But I think when people don't know what to say, they find the worst things to say.

还不如什么也不说。

Worse say nothing.

一位母亲说：‘没关系，你没有孩子了。’

One of the mothers said, Oh, it's okay you don't have your children.

我的孩子也在上大学，我们也很少见到孩子。

My children, they're in college too, we don't see our children often either.

我当时就想：你只是在骗我，好让自己感觉好受一点。

And I just thought, You just lied to me so you can feel better.

你不想感到不舒服，所以你说：‘哦，我们情况一样。’

You don't want to feel uncomfortable, so you said, Oh, we're in the same boat.

但有些朋友能只是承认：‘我无法为你做任何事，也无法说什么，但我能坐在这里，陪你承受痛苦吗？’

But there are friends who can just acknowledge, There's nothing I can say or do for you, but can I just sit here with you in your pain?

你不喜欢‘悲伤’这个词，还是不用‘我’这个字？

You don't like the word grief, or you don't use the word I

不要用人们使用的方式去使用‘悲痛’这个词。

don't use the word grief the way people use it.

我认为悲痛正成为许多事情的捷径。

I think grief is becoming a shortcut for many things.

例如，人们把悲痛说成一个过程，仿佛这个过程最终会有个尽头。

For instance, people talk about their grief as a process, as still there's an end of that process.

这是一种我们将永远处于其中的状态，我们只能活在这种状态里，而我选择留在这里。

It's a state that we're going to be in forever and ever, and we just have to live in that state, and I choose to be here.

你选择留在这里？

You choose to be?

是的。

Yes.

因为另一种选择是忘记你的孩子，忘记你失去的人，而我不想忘记。

Because the alternative is you forget your children, you forget your lost people, and I don't want to forget.

我认为记住比处理更重要。

I think remembering is more important than processing.

我有点想知道，有没有人听到了这个会说，哦，你被困住了。

I I sort of wonder if somebody listening to this will say, oh, you're stuck.

我不觉得被困住，因为我正在生活。

I don't feel stuck because I am living.

日复一日，我都在继续前行。

From day to day, I'm doing.

但我认为‘被困住’、‘哀悼’或‘过程’这些词，某种程度上对人们提出了要求。

But I think the word stuck or the word grieving or process, they sort of make demands of people.

我认为这些要求并不现实。

I think these demands are not realistic.

这些要求是为了让提出要求的人感到安心。

These are the demands for those people's comfort who make the demands.

如果你没有被困住，人们就会感觉更好，和你相处也不会那么尴尬。

If you're not stuck, people feel better, less awkward around you.

人们觉得他们可以谈论其他事情。

People feel that they can talk about other things.

但这其实更多地反映了他人，而不是我、我们，或正在经历这些痛苦的人。

But that tells me so much about other people rather than me or us or people who are experiencing these pains.

我很早就经历了失去，但我并没有真正允许自己感受那些失落。

I experienced loss very early on, and I didn't allow myself really to feel those losses.

是的。

Mhmm.

直到最近几年，大概两年前，我才开始真正地感受到这些情绪。

And it's only in the last few years, two years or so, that I've begun to really feel them.

对。

Right.

我能问你吗，你最初为什么不允许自己去感受？

Can I ask you why originally you did not allow yourself to feel?

当我爸爸去世时，我才十岁。

Well, was when my dad died, I was 10.

对。

Right.

这对我来说太可怕了。

And it was so terrifying for me.

我父亲对我来说就是一切，因此他的离去，至今依然让我极度痛苦。

My dad was everything to me, so his loss was, and still is, extraordinarily painful.

我和我弟弟的人生轨迹从此彻底改变了。

The trajectory of my life and my brother's life was forever altered.

你小时候会梦到他吗？

Did you dream about him when you were younger?

没怎么梦到过。

Not that much.

我和我弟弟再也没有谈论过他。

And my brother and I never talked about him again.

是的。

Right.

我现在想想，觉得这真是太疯狂了。

And I think how crazy that is now.

我们从未讨论过任何事情。

We never discussed anything.

那种孤独感真的让人心碎。

And the loneliness of that is is so sort of heartbreaking.

我认为死亡总是让人陷入一种极度的孤独。

I think I think death always puts people in a very lonely Can

你能跟我讲讲文森特和詹姆斯吗？

you tell me about Vincent and about James?

我从未见过两个人如此彼此取乐。

Well, I had never met two people who were so amused with each other.

他们关系很亲密。

They were close.

他们是关系最亲密的兄弟，文森特是个很棒的男孩，留着长发，富有诗意、音乐天赋，才华横溢，情绪多变。

They were the closest brothers, and Vincent was this fantastic boy with long hair, poetic, musical, talented, moody.

文森特以极高的热情生活，对痛苦和喜悦都感受得极为深刻。

Vincent lived life at a very high pitch and feeling things very acutely, pains and joys.

所以他的去世并不令人意外。

So his death wasn't a surprise.

他的治疗师说，你必须做好准备。

His therapist said, you must prepare.

这种情况随时可能发生。

This could come any day.

你一直担心了六年，我记得你是这么说的。

You you had been worried for, I think you said, six years

担心他会——是的。

One that he might Yeah.

自杀。

Die by suicide.

他十岁的时候，我看着他，心想：我必须尽一切努力留住他。

When he was 10, I looked at him much and thought, oh, I need to do everything I could to keep you here.

他十岁时，你看到了什么？

What at 10 did you see?

他只是对生活中的一切有着异常敏锐的感受，大多数孩子都有这种感受，但孩子们通常不善于表达自己的情感。

Just this acuteness of feeling everything in life, most children feel, but children don't often articulate their feelings.

我认为文森特在10岁时就清晰地表达出了他对世界的感受——世界多么黯淡，但他对一切事物，无论是好是坏，都感受得如此深刻。

And I think Vincent et 10 articulated his feelings about the world, about how bleak it was, but also how much he felt about everything, both good and bad.

我想我当时已经看到了征兆。

And I suppose I saw the sign.

他写过关于死亡的诗。

He wrote poetry about death.

有时我会偷偷溜进他的卧室，确认他没有死去。

Sometimes I would sneak into his bedroom to make sure he did not die.

确认他没有死？

To make sure he he hadn't died?

确认他还在那里。

To make sure he was there.

他没有离家出走，也没有死去。

He did not run away or did not die.

你的两个孩子都看起来非常聪明。

Both your children seem brilliant.

你说詹姆斯自学了多种语言，包括威尔士语、德语、罗马尼亚语和俄语，再加上他在学校学的西班牙语、意大利语和日语。

You said James would teach himself several languages, Welsh, German, Romanian, and Russian, on top of Spanish, Italian, and Japanese, the languages he took at school.

他的手机，我曾经偶然发现，被设置成了立陶宛语。

His phone, I once found out by accident, was set in Lithuanian.

拥有这样聪明的孩子非常奇特，但同时也非常好。

It's very odd to have those brilliant children, but it was also very, very good.

我只是觉得，某种程度上，我从一开始就从未把他们当作孩子，而是把他们看作独立的个体。

Just I think, in a way, I never thought of them as children, but I thought of them as their own individuals from the very beginning.

文森特当时说了什么？

What was it that Vincent said?

他五岁的时候，他最好的朋友莫里决定不和他结婚，因为她觉得自己可能会嫁给她的哥哥。

When he was five, his best friend, Maury, decided not to marry him because she thought she might marry her brother.

好的。

Okay.

文森特回到家后，躺在床上四个小时一动不动。

And Vincent came home and stayed in bed for four hours, not moving.

他伤心欲绝吗？

He was inconsolable?

是的，只是盯着天花板发呆。

Yes, just staring at the ceiling.

我当时就想，一个孩子怎么能有这么深的感情？

I just thought, how could a child feel so much?

然后他坐起来，开始写歌词。

So then he sat up and he started to write song lyrics.

就像一个大写的字母O。

It's like big letter, O.

O，爱。

O love.

O，爱。

O love.

哦，一生中对你的心无情的爱。

Oh, heartless love for your heart through your life.

我只是想，这究竟是从哪里来的？

And I just thought, where did this come from?

所以我尊重他感受到的这种强烈情感。

So I respected that that intensity of feelings he felt.

詹姆斯情感强烈但不说话吗？

And James felt intensely but didn't speak?

他不是一个爱说话的孩子，但他和文森特交流时却极其富有表现力，而文森特去世后，他就几乎不再说话了。

He was not a verbal child, but he was extremely eloquent with Vincent, which when Vincent died, he sort of stopped talking.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这反映了他失去的痛苦。

I think that spoke of his loss.

因为文森特是他倾诉的对象？

Because Vincent was the person he talked to?

文森特几乎是唯一一个他不停交谈的人。

Vincent was pretty much the only person he talked to nonstop.

他小时候会和我聊天，但我觉得文森特去世后，他变得更加不愿表达对这个世界的看法。

He talked when he was little with me, but I think after Vincent died, he started to be even less verbal about the world.

六岁时，詹姆斯对你说了些什么。

At six, James said something to you.

他说：‘妈妈，我仍然患有独处恐惧症。’

He said, you know mommy, I'm still suffering from monophobia.

独处恐惧症？

Monophobia?

是的。

Yes.

这是一种对孤独的极度恐惧。

Which is Extreme fear of loneliness.

他六岁时怎么会知道这个词？

How did he even know what that word was at six?

我不知道。

I don't know.

他可能是查了字典，想找一个准确的词来向我描述他的处境。

He probably looked up in the dictionary to find the exact word just to describe his situation to me.

他说到‘我仍然’这个事实

The fact that he said I'm still

我仍然。

I'm still.

这说明这种情况已经持续很久了。

That this had been going on for a long time.

是的。

Yes.

你真正注意到的詹姆斯对文森特去世的反应，就是他再也没有剪过头发。

The only sign you really had with James in terms of his reaction to Vincent's death was that he never cut his hair again.

文森特去世后的六年里

For the six years after Vincent's

死亡，是的。

death Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

他让头发留长了。

He let his hair grow long.

是的。

Yeah.

这正是文森特留头发的方式。

Which is what the way Vincent had his hair.

所以我认为，这是一种纪念或承认的方式，至少不需要多说什么，我觉得。

So I think that's that's a sign of remembering, at least, or acknowledging without having to speak a lot the message, I think.

你写过一句话。

There was a line you wrote.

在我看来，为了尊重我孩子们的敏感与独特的洞察力，让他们各自拥有尽可能多的空间去成长为独立的自我，这是我作为母亲能做的最好的事。

It seemed to me that to honor the sensitivity and peculiar clarity of my children so that each could have as much space as possible to grow into his individual self was the best I could do as a mother.

是的，我爱他们，我依然爱着他们。

Yes, I love them and I still love them.

但比爱更重要的，是理解并尊重我的孩子，尤其是要理解并尊重他们选择结束生命的做法。

But more important than loving is understanding and respecting my children, which includes, more than anything else, understanding and respecting their choices to end their lives.

说出并感受到这一点，是一件非同寻常的事。

It's an extraordinary thing to say, to feel.

我认为，作为他们的母亲，我能为他们做的最好的事，就是尊重他们的决定。

I think that's the best I can do for them as their mother, is they made a decision.

我肯定你接触过那些曾试图自杀的人。

I'm sure you have talked to people who had suicide attempts.

我也曾试图自杀。

I attempted suicide too.

对于选择自杀的人来说，这并不是因为他们不想活下去。

And it's not that you don't want to live for people who commit suicide.

这并不是因为他们不想活，或者不爱别人，不爱自己的母亲，或者不爱朋友。

It's not that you don't want to live or you don't love people, you don't love your mother, or you don't love your friends.

是痛苦。

It's the pain.

你感受到的唯一摆脱痛苦的方式就是结束自己的生命。

And you're experiencing there's no way to stop the pain but to wipe your body out.

这是唯一的方法。

That's the only way.

所以我认为，当文森特做出决定时，我目睹了他六年来的痛苦，我想，我必须尊重，你知道，他的选择，他确实努力过了。

So I think when Vincent made the decision, I had watched him suffer for six years and I thought, I must respect, you know, his I mean, he tried.

所以我想我只是想尊重并说：是的，你已经努力了六年。

So I think I just want to respect and say, Yes, you have tried six years.

詹姆斯在文森特去世六年后也去世了。

And James died six years after Vincent died.

那六年里，他一直很孤独。

And those six years he was lonely.

这种孤独感，是母亲无法解决的。

And that kind of loneliness was not something a mother could do.

这就是我问你关于失去兄弟的原因，因为两个兄弟关系如此亲密。

That's why I asked you about losing a brother because two brothers were so close.

一个兄弟去世了。

One brother died.

我猜，凡是与这个人紧密相连的部分，也随着兄弟一同逝去了。

I suppose whoever remains part of this person also died with the brother.

所以当詹姆斯去世时，我想尊重他的决定，我尊重他们两人的选择，因为我需要站在他们的角度思考，而不是站在我们的角度。

So when James died, I wanted to respect his decision, I respect both their decisions because I need to think on their behalf rather than on our behalf.

父母，我认为会承受痛苦，但那是可以承受、可以应对的。

Parents, I think, suffer, but that is doable, manageable.

我认为，爱孩子似乎是我们能为孩子做的唯一一件事。

I think loving children seems to me the only thing we can do for our children.

这微不足道。

It's very little.

但如果我们能理解他们，那就远不止微不足道了。

But if we can understand them, it's more than little.

所以我希望相信我理解我的孩子，也理解他们的决定。

So I want to believe I understand my children and I understand their decisions.

是的。

Yeah.

你提到了一个概念，叫做激进接纳。

You talk about a concept radical acceptance.

你说，在詹姆斯去世几天后，激进接纳是当时支撑我的力量。

You said, a few days after James' death, radical acceptance was what sustained me then.

为什么、如何、以及种种缘由的问题，或是那些‘如果当初’的幻想，这些疑问在任何灾难后都会自然出现，就像文森特去世后那样。

The questions of whys and hows and wherefores or the wishful thinking of what ifs, these questions naturally arise after any catastrophe as they did after Vincent's death.

但这次，我觉得这些疑问——它们作为对事实的一系列反驳——是无用的，甚至是对詹姆斯本质的冒犯。

But this time, it feels to me that those questions, which function as a series of counterarguments against a fact, are useless, even a violation of James's essence.

我当时和现在对这种情况唯一的理解是，接受詹姆斯和文森特一样，选择了死亡，而詹姆斯尤其选择了和文森特相同的死亡方式。

My only grasp of the situation then as well as now is to accept that James, like Vincent, chose death, and James particularly chose the same way to die as Vincent.

现实可以通过多种方式表达，但用最直白的语言来谈论它更好。

Reality, can be conveyed in many ways, is better spoken of in the most straightforward language.

是的。

Yes.

对我来说，这就是彻底接受。

That to me is radical acceptance.

你从事实出发，而不是从幻想或问题开始。

You start with a fact rather than wishful thinking or questions.

我从玛莎·林内汉的《DBT手册》中借用了这个术语，当我感到痛苦或暂时不安时，我会先回到事实。

I borrowed that term from Martha Leninhan's The Manual, the DBT Manual, if I feel pain or if I feel momentarily unsettled, I'm going to come back to the fact first.

事实是文森特去世了，然后詹姆斯也去世了，他们都选择了死亡。

And the fact is Vincent died, and then James died, and they both chose death.

我必须接受这个事实。

I must accept that fact.

你不能与这个事实争辩。

You don't argue with that fact.

你不会说，但我并不喜欢这样，或者我不希望这样。

You don't say, but I don't like it or but I don't want this.

不。

No.

那没有帮助。

That doesn't help.

我可以大喊，但不会改变这个事实。

I could scream, but it would not change the fact.

我与这个事实共存，但这个事实无法击败我。

I live with this fact, but this fact cannot defeat me.

对你来说，曾经试图完全理解文森特或詹姆斯的思维过程重要吗？

Was it important for you ever to try to completely understand Vincent's thought process or James' thought process?

或者在我的情况下，我花了很多时间试图理解我哥哥在想什么？

Or in my case, I mean, I spent a lot of time trying to understand what was my brother thinking?

他为什么这么做？这是一个选择吗？是一种强迫吗？是他脑海中的声音吗？

What why did he do this, what was this a choice, was this a compulsion, was this a voice in his head?

有时我仍然会陷入这种思绪，但根本无法得到答案。

And and there are times I still go down that rabbit hole, and there's not any way to get an answer.

对。

Right.

有些问题是没有答案的。

There are questions that cannot be answered.

而且，我们又怎能不去问这些问题呢？

And also, how can we not ask those questions?

我也经常问这些问题。

I ask those questions all the time too.

但我认为，我接受了无法找到答案的事实。

But I I think I accept not being able to find out the answers.

我是个新手爸爸。

I'm a new father.

我有个三岁和一个五岁的孩子，我非常爱他们。

I have a three and a five year old, and I love them so much.

我希望自己足够强大，能保护他们免受一切伤害。

And I wanted to be enough to protect them from everything.

在读你的书时，我一直在想这一点：拥有两个如此聪明的孩子，如此深爱他们，却无法消除他们所有的痛苦。

And I I kept thinking of that while reading your book, having these two brilliant children and loving them so much, and yet not being able to take away all the hurt.

我认为，为人父母的一件令人难过的事就是，我们无法替他们消除痛苦。

I think that's one sad thing about parenting is we cannot take the hurt away from them.

另一方面，我记得文森特上幼儿园时，报纸上有一篇文章，题目是《如何为孩子的未来做准备？》

On the other hand, I remember when Vincent was in preschool, there was a piece in the newspaper, How to prepare your children for their future?

那位幼儿园老师非常不高兴。

And the preschool teacher was quite upset.

她说：‘你这话是什么意思？为他们的未来做准备？’

She said, What do you mean prepare them for their future?

他们现在正在过自己的生活。

They are living their lives now.

我始终记得这句话，因为你的孩子现在正在过他们的生活。

And I always remember that because your children are living their lives now.

这毫无疑问。

That's for sure.

当文森特五岁时，我意识到他正在过自己的生活，表达着自己的感受、愿望和不喜欢。

When Vincent was five, I realised he was living in his life, expressing his feelings, wishes, dislikes.

非常充分地，书中这么写道。

Very fully, it says.

非常充分。

Very fully.

当我让他去踢足球、加入足球俱乐部时，他说：‘你这么做是为了你的快乐，不是我的快乐。’

When I asked him to go play soccer, join the soccer club, he said, You want that for your happiness, not my happiness.

而他当时才五岁。

And he was five.

所以我相信，孩子们确实活在他们自己的生活中。

And so so I do believe children live there in their own lives.

我们稍作短暂休息。

We're gonna take a short break.

马上回来。

We'll be right back.

稍后继续与李恩利的对话。

More with Eun Lee in a moment.

欢迎回到我与作家李恩利的对话。

Welcome back to my conversation with author Lee Eun Lee.

你没有使用‘悲伤’这个词。

You don't use the word grief.

你谈论的是深渊。

You talk about the abyss.

是的。

Yes.

我用‘深渊’这个词来准确描述我对生活的感受——我正身处深渊之中。

I I use abyss as a as the precise word to describe how I feel about my life is I'm in an abyss.

你现在就在深渊里。

You're in it right now.

对。

Yes.

我们将永远身处这个深渊，因为我们永远都是失去了两个孩子的父母，生活中没有任何事情能改变这一点。

And we will always be in this abyss because we'll always be parents who have lost two children, and nothing in life is going to change that.

所以我不想说，我想从这个深渊中走出来。

So I don't want to say, I want to get out of this abyss.

我想做的是，更好地在这个深渊中生活，让它不那么令人绝望。

What I want to do is to live in this abyss a little better so it doesn't feel abysmal.

每个人都有自己的深渊，我从不想离开。

And each person lives in his or her own abyss, and I never want to go out.

我认为不可能走出来。

I don't think it's possible to get out.

这虽然很痛苦。

Though it's painful.

确实很痛苦。

It is painful.

人们希望紧紧抓住这些记忆，无论它们多么痛苦。

One wants to hold on to these memories, however painful they are.

人们总认为痛苦是不好的。

People always think pains are not good.

痛苦本身无所谓好坏，它们只是事实。

There's nothing good or bad about pains, they're just facts.

它们是你生命中的事实。

They're the facts in your life.

我丈夫和我都身处痛苦之中，我们承受着痛苦，但这并不妨碍我们大笑。

My husband and we are in pain, we have the pain, but that doesn't stop us from laughing.

我认为痛苦或这种深渊，是与之共存，而不是摆脱它。

I think that pain or that abyss is you coexist rather than getting rid of.

我认为我们该做的，是如何更明智、更好、更愉快地与这种痛苦共处。

And I think what we do is how to live with that pain a little bit more wisely or better or cheerfully.

在文森特和詹姆斯去世后，有没有哪次你又笑了出来，而且你自己都感到惊讶？

Was there a time after the death of Vincent and after the death of James that you'd laughed again and you and it shocked you?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为在文森特去世后，我们花了很长时间才重新开始笑。

I think it took us a long time after Vincent's death to start laughing again.

我记得有一个确切的时刻，我和丈夫在聊一些非常琐碎的事情，突然我们俩都大笑起来，我当时就想，哦，我们重新找回了笑的能力。

And I remembered the precise moment my husband and I were talking about something, very trivial, and we both just broke into laughter and I just thought, oh, we we we we regained that ability to laugh.

你们第一次笑是彼此之间，这真好。

It's nice that the first time you both laughed was with each other.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这相当令人惊讶。

It was quite astonishing, I think.

对于詹姆斯，花的时间少了一点。

With James, it took a little less time.

你经历一次之后，似乎就学会了如何做得更好一点。

You go through it once, it seems like you learn how to do things a little better.

你学会更好地承受痛苦了。

You learn how to suffer better.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

我喜欢这句话，真的。

I like that, really.

第二次经历时，你会更好地承受痛苦。

You you suffer better the second time.

我哥哥去世后，我妈在床上躺了好几天，我也躺在她身边，她的朋友和我哥哥的朋友都来看望。

After my brother died, my mom lay in her bed for days, and I lay in the bed with her, and friends of hers and and my brothers would come.

她一遍又一遍地讲述那个故事，因为他在她面前自杀了。

She would tell over and over again the story because he killed himself in front of her.

我记得几天后她对我说：你知道的，情况会好起来的。

And I remember her saying to me at one point, this was several days later, she said, you know, it will get better.

我对她说：已经好起来了。

And I said to her, it already is.

哦。

Oh.

她看着我，说：‘哦，你说得对。’

And she looked at me and she said, oh, you're right.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

我的意思是，那种微小的改善确实是存在的，是的。

And I mean, was in that little tiny increment of better Yes.

但它比两天前好多了。

But it was better than it had been two days prior.

是的。

Yes.

而且没错。

And yeah.

那很有意义。

That was meaningful.

我知道。

I know.

嗯，这非常好。

Well, that's very good.

你看，失去亲人之后，这些痛苦有时会以剧烈的形式重新出现。

See, that's the other thing about after you lose someone, these pains come back, like in an acute form sometimes.

我去普林斯顿讲课，每次踏上校园，都会有一瞬间，那种痛苦突然袭来，非常剧烈。

I go to teach at Princeton, every time I go on campus, there is a moment it just hit me so hard, it's just acute pain.

然后我能够静下心来，对自己说：哦，这种痛苦，接着它就平息了。

And then I can sort of take stock and say, oh, this pain, and then it stops.

但它从未真正消失。

But it never goes away.

这就是为什么我认为说‘这是一个过程’是行不通的另一个原因。

That's the other reason I think it doesn't work to say it's a process.

二十年后，你依然会想着这件事。

Twenty years later, you will still be thinking about this thing.

对吧？

Right?

对我来说，想到我哥哥仍然非常痛苦。

For me, thinking about my brother is still very painful.

我们之间有很多未说出口的话。

There's so much sort of unsaid between us.

你能想到文森特和詹姆斯而不感到痛苦吗？

Can you think about Vincent and James without pain?

哦，这是个好问题。

Oh, that's a good question.

到目前为止，还没有发生过。

So far, it has not happened.

不，我不这么认为。

No, I don't think.

我认为不可能想到他们而不感到痛苦，因为我们是父母。

I don't think it's possible to think about them without pain because we are parents.

对吧？

Right?

当我们想到我们的孩子时，这不仅关乎他们的过去，也关乎他们的未来。

When we think about our children, it's not only about their past but also about their future.

但当我想到我的孩子时，他们没有未来了。

But when I think about my children, there is no future for them.

这种痛苦将永远存在。

That's the pain that will always be there.

我会想起他们的过去。

I think about their past.

有时我会找到一些小东西，有时我会翻开一本旧书。

Sometimes I find little things, sometimes I open an old book.

有一张詹姆斯写的便条，上面说：对了，你欠我两美元。

There is a note from James saying, By the way, you owe me $2.

我不知道这东西是从哪儿来的。

I have no idea where it came from.

当我谈到我的书时，

When it came to my book, there

看到那些文字时，有一刻强烈的喜悦，但同时也伴随着巨大的痛苦。

was a moment of intense joy seeing those words, but then also intense pain.

但我觉得，这两种情感我都能承受。

But both are, I think, I can live with.

詹姆斯去世后，你去上了钢琴课，你去

After James's death, you had a piano lesson and you went to

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

去上你的钢琴课。

To to do your piano lesson.

是的。

Yes.

詹姆斯去世三天后。

Three days after after James died.