产品与项目运营模式

大家好。

Hi, folks.

欢迎收听《All Things Product》，主持人是佩特拉·维尔。

This is All Things Product with Petra Wille.

还有特蕾莎·托雷斯。

And Teresa Torres.

我们非常高兴你们能来到这里。

And we're so happy you're here.

特蕾莎，我有个问题，我当然已经有自己的看法了，但我还是想和你讨论一下。

Teresa, I have a question, and I already have opinions as always, but I wanted to discuss it with you.

一家公司能否同时运行产品运营模式和项目运营模式？

Can one company in parallel have the Product Operating Model and the Project Operating Model running?

可以。

Yes.

我认为它们可以并存。

I think they can.

事实上，我认为大多数公司，即使已经成熟地采用了产品运营模式，仍然有一部分业务在以项目模式运行。

In fact, I think most companies are even companies mature in the Product Operating Model probably still have parts of their business that are running in a project mode.

我会说完全相同的话。

I would have said the exact same thing.

我同意。

I agree.

让我们深入探讨一下。

Let's dive into it.

好了，我们结束了。

All right, we're done.

对。

Right.

本集已录制。

Episode recorded.

有史以来最短的一集。

Shortest episode ever.

好的，我们先从

Okay, let's start by

让我们来拆解一下。

Let's unpack it.

是的，让我们先来分解这些术语。

Yeah, let's start by actually breaking down these terms.

产品运营模式这个术语最近由马蒂·卡根推广开来，用以描述一种赋权的产品团队，其任务是达成成果或解决客户问题，而不是像项目运营模式那样要求团队完成某个倡议。

Product operating model, term recently popularized by Marty Cagan to reflect this idea of empowered product teams that are being tasked with outcomes or customer problems to solve, as opposed to project operating models where we're asking our teams to do an initiative.

这是一个项目，通常是交付一个产出，比如开发这个功能，有明确的开始和结束。

Here's a project, typically an output, build this feature, it begins and ends.

所以，产品运营模式与项目运营模式的表现差异有哪些。

So like symptoms of product operating model versus Project Operating Model.

在产品模式中，我们的团队被要求交付成果；而在项目模式中，他们则被要求交付产出。

In a product model, our teams are being asked to deliver outcomes, maybe in a project model they're being asked to deliver outputs.

在产品模式中，团队被要求。

In a product model, a team is being asked.

他们通常在处理一些持续性的工作，比如努力提升用户参与度，他们会一直做下去。

They're typically working on something that's evergreen, like they're trying to drive engagement, they're going to do it forever.

而在项目模式中，

Whereas in a project model

所以他们是长期存在的，产品是长期存在的。

So they're here to stay, the products are here to stay.

产品是长期存在的，团队也是持久的，他们会持续负责产品的这一部分；而项目模式下，团队可能并不持久，每个项目都会更换成员，项目有明确的开始和结束时间，完成一个项目后就转到下一个项目，再也不回头看之前的项目。

A product is here to stay, the team is durable, they're working on that part of the product over time, whereas with the project, maybe the team is not durable, they change team members every project, a project has a start and an end date, we roll off one project and roll onto the next project and never look at that past project again.

所以，如果你不熟悉这些术语，这些就是一些区别，而且我们看到整个行业正在从项目管理模式向产品管理模式发生巨大转变。

So that's just if you're not familiar with these terms, those are some of the differences, and we're seeing across the industry big shift from a project operating model to a product operating model.

是的。

Yeah.

这种巨大转变或许我们可以深入探讨一下，因为在软件开发初期，所有的软件开发其实都是高度项目导向的。

Big shift is maybe we can unpack Big Shift a bit because that basically in the beginning of software development, all software development was really, really project based.

是的。

Yeah.

因为人们曾经认为，我们可以收集某个软件的所有需求，然后把这些需求交给开发人员，让他们在一段明确的时间内完成这些需求。

Because people thought and we learned that this is not the case, but people thought that you can collect all the requirements for a particular piece of software, then you bring these requirements to the developers, then they work on these requirements for a very well defined slice of time.

然后他们神奇地完成了被指派的任务，发布软件，之后就结束了，人们开始使用它。

And then they finished magically with what they actually were tasked to do, and they release it, and then it's done, and people go use it.

这其中很大一部分源于我们曾经开发那些被刻录在CD上并发布的软件。

And a lot of it comes from us working on software that was basically burned and shipped on CDs.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们现在讨论的就是这个。

So this is what we're talking about.

对吧？

Right?

所以它

So it

当时是有明确的开始日期和结束日期的。

There was a start date and an end date.

日期，是的。

The date Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

软件发布了。

Software shipped.

我们确实是在发布产品，是的。

Ship we were shipping stuff Yeah.

在物理驱动器上。

On physical kind of drives.

我认为这就是很多问题和旧有惯性产生的根源。

And I think this is what where a lot of the things come from and a lot of the old reflexes come from.

其中一部分是因为理解这些很重要，因为过去它们大多是有道理的。

And it's some of that because it's important to understand some of that, most of it made sense in the past.

所以所有这些项目规划，在某种程度上，曾经是管理如此庞大工程的唯一方式。

So all this project planning, it was basically the only way how you could run such a big endeavor to some extent.

这种工作方式当然还有改进的空间。

There could be improvements to that way of working, definitely.

但人们仍然需要理解我们是从哪里来的。

But still just that people understand that's where we're coming from.

项目运营模式本身并不一定是坏的。

And project operating models are not necessarily bad.

没错。

Correct.

是的，我认为即使在今天，也有很多情况项目运营模式仍然是合适的模式。

Yeah, and I would argue even today there are lots of instances where a project operating model is the right model.

我们来具体讨论一下这些情况。

Let's talk through some of these cases.

首先，当你们所从事的工作是持续性的时，我们会转向更偏向产品运营的模式。

First of all, we're shifting to more of a product operating model in cases when the thing that you're working on is evergreen.

我认为这一点非常重要，需要牢记。

I think this is a really important thing to remember.

如果你在Netflix工作，就永远不会有一天你决定：我们已经解决了人们如何选择观看内容的问题，任务完成了。

If you work at Netflix, there's never going to be a day where you decide we solved the problem for how people can choose what to watch, we're done.

这种情况永远不会发生。

Never going to happen.

这是一个持续性的挑战，我们总能做得更好。

It's an evergreen challenge, we can always get better at it.

所以我们组建了一个产品团队，团队是长期存在的，成果也是持久的——帮助人们找到想看的内容，我们会为此终身投入。

So we put a product team on it, the team is durable, the outcome is durable, help people find something to watch, and we work on it for the rest of our lives.

这正是推动

Is what's driving

也许是公司的常态，但没错。

Company life maybe, but yes.

是的。

Yeah.

推动从项目模式转向产品模式的原因，正是我们意识到存在一些持续性的挑战。

That is what's driving the shift from project to product is we're recognizing there's evergreen challenges.

当然，仍然会有一些不是永恒的挑战。

Now there's still going to be challenges that are not evergreen.

GDPR刚刚成为法律，我们必须遵守它。

GDPR just became law and we have to comply with it.

好吧，除非GDPR每年都在变化——而它似乎并没有这样——我们就没必要分配一个持久的产品团队。

Okay, Unless GDPR changes every year, which it doesn't seem to be doing, we don't have to assign a durable product.

一个专门的常设团队，是的。

A dedicated standing team, yeah.

永远如此。

For this forever.

我们只会组建一个项目团队，去弄清楚需要做什么才能遵守这项新法规。

We're going to just create a project team, go figure out what it's going to take to comply with this new regulation.

但需要明确的是，有些法规是持续演变的，我们可能会派一个产品团队来处理合规工作。

Now to be clear, there are some regulations that are constantly evolving, and we might have a product team working on regulatory work.

但如果只是讨论一次性的、相对简单就能合规的法规，那么一个项目团队就足够了。

But if we're talking about a one time regulation that's fairly simple to comply with and it's just a project, a project team is fine.

是的。

Yeah.

例如，欧盟目前的无障碍访问就是一个热门话题。

And the EU currently accessibility, for example, is such a topic.

因此，无障碍访问已成为网站的强制性要求。

So accessibility becomes a mandatory thing for websites.

所以现在每家公司都需要关注这一点，这在某种程度上是一次性的任务。

So that's something every company needs to look into right now, and this is a one off thing to some extent.

也许吧。

Maybe.

我认为无障碍访问是一个灰色地带。

So I think accessibility is a gray area.

对吧？

Right?

所以我会对无障碍访问说不。

So I would argue with accessibility No.

在网站上遵守最新的无障碍法规，这

With complying with the newest regulations accessibility wise on your website, that's

也许是对的。

maybe Bingo.

一次性的事情，好吧。

One off Okay.

所以，我来举一个我自己的业务的例子。

So, like, I have this example of my own business.

我正在努力改进我课程的无障碍性。

I'm trying to improve the accessibility of my courses.

这对我来说是一种永恒的价值理念。

This is a ethos of value that is evergreen for me.

但目前，我有一个一次性项目：我有一堆没有字幕的课程视频。

But right now, I have a one time project of I have a backlog of course videos that don't have subtitles.

这并不是永恒的。

That's not evergreen.

这是一堆我必须逐一完成的待办事项。

It's a backlog that I have to just get through.

这是一个项目。

It's a project.

把它融入进去。

Fit it.

是的。

Yeah.

但我希望我的课程更具可访问性的这种理念，是一个我可以无限迭代的成果。

But this ethos of I want my courses to be more accessible is an outcome that I can iterate on indefinitely.

对吧？

Right?

所以在我们所有的工作中，我们既有项目，也有永恒的成果，对吧？

So in all of our work, we have projects and we have evergreen outcomes, right?

甚至一个以成果为导向的团队，也可能接手一个有明确开始和结束的项目，对吧？

And even an outcome driven team might take on a project that has a beginning and an end, right?

所以我认为这些模型的有用之处在于，它们为我们提供了一种思考方式，是一种框架。

So I think what's helpful about these models is they give us a way to think about it's a framework.

它为我们提供了一种思考工作的途径。

It gives us a way to think about our work.

对于任何框架，我们都做过一整期节目讨论框架的价值。

And with any framework, we did a whole episode on the value of frameworks.

我们可以看看它们在哪些地方有效，以及在哪些地方失效。

We can look at where they work and we can look at where they fall apart.

我认为最重要的是，我们不要变得教条，把这变成一个并不存在的二元对立。

And I think what's most important that we do is we don't get dogmatic and turn this into like a dichotomy that's not there.

这是一个连续谱。

It's a spectrum.

我们有项目。

We have projects.

我原本想说的是，我们有产品。

I was We have products.

是的。

Yeah.

我正要补充这一点，因为我特别注意到，那些在利益相关者管理方面处于边缘的产品团队，常常会干扰那些更习惯于项目运营模式的团队或部门。

I was about to add exactly that because I particularly see product teams that are on the edges, stakeholder management wise, often are interfering with teams, departments that are more used to the project operating model.

比如人力资源部门，他们经常有很多项目，这些项目都有明确的截止日期，有时做完就结束了。

Sometimes HR, for example, they have a lot of projects going on, and they do have an end date to it, and sometimes they're done.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果他们有一个空缺职位要招聘，一旦人招满了，

So if they have an open position to hire somebody, and then the position is filled.

那这件事就没什么可继续做的了。

And so there's not much more to do there.

还有财务部门，比如他们制作年度报告时，需要为此做大量汇报工作。

And there are various, for example, finance oftentimes, if they create their annual report, and they need a lot of reporting for that.

对他们来说，这就是一个项目。

So for them, that's a project.

一旦年度报告被打印或保存为PDF格式，他们就完成了这个项目。

Once the annual report is printed or in a PDF format, then they're done with this project.

但他们仍然需要拉入一些团队成员，比如产品人员，因为他们需要一些数据。

But still, they need to drag in some of the team members, maybe the product person because they need some data.

我经常看到产品团队和产品人员对这种不同的工作方式感到困惑。

And then I see often product teams, product people being so confused about this different modus operandi.

这基本上就是你刚才说的。

And that's basically what you were saying.

我们不应该对人们如何开展某些倡议过于教条。

Like, we should not get too dogmatic about how people run certain initiatives.

即使你的产品是产品，你也在遵循产品运营模式，你仍然需要足够灵活，以更项目导向的方式与其他团队和部门合作。

And product people should still even if your product is a product and you are subscribing to the product operating model, you still need to be flexible enough to work with other teams and other departments in a more project oriented manner.

实际上，我认为对于任何类型的工作，问一问：从项目思维的角度来做这件事会是什么样子，而从产品思维的角度来做又会是什么样子，都会非常有帮助。

I actually think for any type of work, it can be really helpful to ask, what would it look like to work on this from a project mindset versus what would it look like to work on this from a product mindset?

即使是你的HR例子，比如我需要招聘一个人，是的。

Even your HR example, so if I need to hire somebody, Yeah.

如果是紧急的招聘需求，我可能会把它看作一个需要尽快完成的项目。

If it's an urgent hiring need, I might look at it as this is a project I need to get it done as quickly as possible.

对。

Yes.

但我也可以从产品思维的角度来看，比如说，好吧，

But I also could look at it from a product mindset and say, okay,

搭建流程。

Type line building.

这很紧急，但我确实需要招聘。

This is urgent, but I do need to hire.

我是一家四人公司，未来三年里我需要招聘五十次。

I'm a four person company and I'm going to have to hire 50 times over the next three years.

我的流程应该是什么？

And what's my process for that?

这是一个持续性的挑战，我该如何做好招聘？

This is an evergreen challenge and how do I hire well?

所以哪怕是同一项工作，也能同时从项目思维和产品思维中获益。

And so even the same piece of work can benefit from a project mindset and a product mindset.

我见过很多采用产品运营模式的产品团队，有些时候他们其实能从项目运营模式中收获更多。

I see a lot of product teams working in a product operating model that sometimes could benefit from a project operating model.

举个例子，假设你正在对接一个身份管理系统，需要研究怎么实现用户名和密码的功能，那这就是个一次性的项目。

Where like, let's say that you're integrating with an identity management system and you're trying to figure out how do we do usernames and passwords, this is a one time project.

你之后不会频繁改动这个部分的。

You're not going to change this on a regular basis.

我们没必要突然去琢磨，那我们的目标到底是什么？

We don't have to suddenly think about, well, what's our outcome?

咱们去探索一下机会领域吧。

Let's go explore the opportunity space.

当然也有可能你需要这么做，说不定你的产品有独特性，要求你在身份管理方面进行创新。

Now maybe you do, maybe there's something unique about your product that does require that you innovate around identity management.

但对我们大多数人来说，我们会直接选用Okta这类工具，或是部署一套单点登录解决方案。

But for most of us, we're going to go use a tool like Okta, or we're going to go do a single sign on solution.

对吧？

Right?

我们不会自己重新开发，而是会使用Outlook的目录或者那个产品的其他解决方案。

Like we're not or we're going to use Outlook's directory or whatever that product is called.

我们在这里并不是重新发明轮子，可以用项目思维来思考。

We're not reinventing the wheel here and we can think about it from a project mindset.

也许这个项目是在某个成果的范围内进行的，你仍然是一个自主团队，自主团队也会做项目。

Maybe that project lives in under the scope of an outcome, you're still an empowered team, empowered teams still do projects.

我其实更愿意把这看作两种不同的视角。

I actually like to think about this as two different lenses.

我们有两种不同的框架。

We have two different frameworks.

我该如何在一种框架的背景下思考我的工作？

How do I think about my work in the context of one framework?

我该如何在另一种框架的背景下思考我的工作？

How do I think about my work in the context of the other framework?

考虑到我目前想要实现的目标和所面临的限制，最重要的模型是什么？

Given what I'm trying to accomplish and the constraints that I'm working with right now, what's the most important model?

是的，随着时间的推移，你会看到模式。

Yeah, and over time you will see pattern.

例如，如果是合作类工作，比如涉及外部方，通常更适合用项目模式来处理，或者类似的方式。

So for example, if it's partnership work, so if it's kind of including an external party, it's more likely to be easier handled under the project model or something like that.

所以，随着时间的推移，你还可以观察到在什么情况下你更倾向于选择其中一种运营模式。

So that's another thing that over time you can observe in what situation I'm more likely to tend towards one or the other operating model.

然后，你就更容易在两种模式之间切换，或者知道哪个模式更适合即将进行的任务了？

And then it gets way easier to flip between the two or to know which one is the right one for this upcoming task to pick?

对。

Yeah.

我认为我们可以找一些迹象：如果我正在使用项目模式，我怎么知道什么时候该转向产品模式？

I think there's some things we can look for, if I'm operating in a project model, how do I know if I should shift to a product model?

或者，如果我正在使用产品模式，我怎么知道什么时候可以转向项目模式？

Or if I'm operating in a product model, how do I know if I could shift to a project model?

所以对我来说，从项目模式转向产品模式很容易。

So I think for me, project to product is easy.

如果我不断重复做大量工作，而且总是紧急、总是危机、总是项目，我总是在奔波，那或许我该退一步想想：我能不能用产品思维来处理这件事？

If I'm doing a lot of work over and over and over again, and it's always urgent, it's always a crisis, it's always a project, I'm always hustling, it might make sense for me to take a step back and say, is there a product mindset I can take to this?

我们经常在咨询师身上看到这种情况。

We see this a lot with consultants.

我很惊讶，竟然有这么多咨询师为每个客户都定制提案。

I'm amazed at how many consultants a custom proposal for every client.

他们没有模板，也没有把任何东西产品化。

And like they don't have a template, they haven't productized anything.

他们只是不停地奔波。

They're just scurrying.

他们为每一个项目都在拼命争取。

They're hustling for every project.

或许他们该退一步想想：有没有什么我可以产品化的东西，让下一个项目变得更轻松？

It might make sense to take a step back and say, Is there something I can productize here to make the next project easier?

但我认为，在产品运营模式团队中，我们看到的是相反的问题：他们把一切都要变成产品，过度工程化、过度设计、过度系统化，而这些事情可能只发生一次。

But I think we see the opposite problem on Product Operating Model teams where they turn everything into a product they over engineer things and they over design things and they over systemize things for something that's going to occur one time.

是的，我完全同意，如果

Yeah, I totally If

如果只发生一次，也许就把它当作一个项目来处理吧。

it's going to incur one time, maybe just treat it like a project.

是的，我完全同意。

Yeah, I totally agree.

关于前面的解释，我面前总是挂着一幅《洛奇》的海报，上面写着‘不到最后，永不言败’。

And to the earlier explanation, I always have this Rocky Balboa, it ain't over till it's over poster in front of me.

抱歉，但这正是我正在经历的情况。

Sorry, but it's but it's what I'm kind of having.

当你有这样一个‘不到最后，永不言败’的时刻时，很可能你就应该切换到产品运营模式。

This is you have this moment, this it ain't over till it's over moment, then it's most likely that you should switch to the Product Operating Model.

因为这时候它是个项目，而这个项目像回旋镖一样反复回来，你不得不重新打开项目，因为项目还没完成。

Because then it's a project and the project is coming back like a boomerang and you have to reopen your project because the project is not yet finished.

如果你正处于这种恶性循环中，那么你可能正在处理一个产品。

If you're kind of in this kind of vicious loop and vicious cycle, then maybe it's a product you're working on.

是的，这让我想到了反馈循环，我们怎么知道什么时候才算完成？

Yeah, you know, this is making me think about feedback loops, like how do we know when we're done?

我认为在产品领域，我们有与客户的反馈循环，客户能帮助我们理解何时才算完成。

And I think a lot of the product world, we have feedback loops with customers and customers help us understand when we're done.

对。

Yes.

我认为在项目中，当工作完成时就算结束了，但并不总是如此。

I think in projects, we're done when the work is completed, but not always.

如果我回到招聘模式，假设我在人力资源团队，一旦职位招满了，我就觉得我的工作完成了，项目也结束了。

If I go back to this hiring model, if I'm on an HR team and I filled a seat, it feels like my work is done and I'm done with my project.

但如果那个你招聘的员工只待了三周呢？

But what if that employee you hired only last three weeks?

这就是一个反馈循环，说明你的项目其实还没完成。

That's a feedback loop that maybe your project wasn't done.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

然后你就会意识到，管道和漏斗实际上才是你应该优化的产品。

Then you realize that the pipeline and the funnel actually is the product that you should be working on optimizing for.

你如何评估这个人是否合适，这是一个问题，对吧？

How you're evaluating is this a good fit is a problem, right?

所以我认为，思考项目与产品之间的区别时，另一个要点是：你的反馈循环是什么？

So I think the other thing to think about projects versus product is what's your feedback loop?

你怎么知道你完成了？

How do you know you're done?

你怎么知道你做得好？

How do you know you did a good job?

这也能帮助你在项目思维和产品思维之间转换。

And that can also help you shift between project and product mindsets.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

好的，关于这个还有别的吗？

All right, anything else on this

没有，我非常喜欢。

No, I love it.

好的。

All right.

谢谢，特蕾莎。

Thanks, Teresa.

简短精炼。

Short and sweet.

谢谢，佩特拉。

Thanks, Petra.