后疫情时代的约会：放下网络上的完美主义与“幽灵式消失”——与罗达·理查兹-史密斯对话

大家好，欢迎回到《Allie知最懂》的全新一期节目。

Hello everyone and welcome back to a brand new episode of Allie Knows Best.

我是你们的主持人，艾莉·纳格尔。

I'm your host, Allie Nagel.

今天，我有幸与伦达·理查德·史密斯进行了对话。

Today I had the incredible opportunity to speak with Rhonda Richard Smith.

她是一位获奖的持证心理治疗师和关系专家。

She's an award winning licensed psychotherapist and relationship expert.

在本期节目中，我们聊到了她在2000年代初治疗尚未普及之时，如何走上治疗师之路，以及她是如何建立以健康与良好关系为核心的咨询实践的。

In this episode, we talk about her journey to becoming a therapist before therapy was really mainstream back in the early 2000s and how she developed her practice that's rooted in wellness and developing healthy relationships.

我们还讨论了后疫情时代的约会将是什么样子，以及明确自己在伴侣身上寻求什么的重要性。

We also talk about what dating post pandemic is going to look like, and the importance of getting clear on what you're looking for in a partner.

我们还指出了常见的约会错误，她描述了约会软件带来的‘游戏效应’——我们沉迷于不断滑动，寻找新的人。

We also call out common dating mistakes, and she describes the gaming effect that we get with dating apps, where we're so addicted to keep on swiping to find someone new.

我个人特别喜欢的一个话题是，社交媒体上强加的完美主义在各个层面可能带来的毒性，以及现实与我们发布内容之间的界限常常是多么模糊。

And one of my personal favorite topics we touch on is how toxic forcing perfectionism on social media can be in all aspects and how often the lines between reality and what we're posting can be blurred.

这一集包含了大量有价值的信息。

There is so much valuable information in this episode.

我觉得你们一定会非常喜欢。

I think you all are really gonna love it.

我们开始吧。

Let's dive in.

欢迎你，罗达。

Welcome, Rhonda.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

我非常高兴能来到这里。

I'm so excited to be here.

是的。

Yeah.

那么我们开始吧。

So let's jump into it.

我的播客名叫《Ali知道得最好》，虽然名字这么叫，但实际上我谈论的是一些我未必最擅长的话题，所以我邀请像你这样在各自领域真正精通的人来分享。

I mean, my podcast is all all of course called Ali Knows Best, and it's a show where I talk about things that maybe I don't know the best about, but so I bring people on like yourself who do know best in their perspective fields.

所以我特别想听听你的背景故事，以及你是如何走上现在这份工作的，因为这看起来是一条非常独特的道路。

So I really wanna hear more about your background and how you got into the work that you're doing because it seems like such a unique path.

这确实是一条非常独特的道路。

It's a very unique path.

我上学的时候本来是想成为一名治疗师。

So, you know, I went to school to become a therapist.

我于2004年从加州大学洛杉矶分校的公共事务学院毕业。

So I graduated in 2004 from UCLA from the School of Public Affairs.

我一直希望专注于帮助人们应对各种困扰，所以我最初开了一家传统心理咨询诊所，主要帮助那些正在应对焦虑或抑郁问题的个体。

And so I knew I wanted to focus on helping people work through any issues that they were having, and so I started out with a traditional therapy practice, so working with individuals that are coping with issues related to anxiety or depression.

然而，我注意到一个普遍现象：很多人的问题都与人际关系有关，这正是我事业的起点。

However, one of the things that was really common that I noticed across the board was issues with relationships, and that's kind of where I got my start.

我发现，人们在个人成长和疗愈创伤方面可以取得很大进展，但如果他们没有在伴侣关系和人际联结上进行必要的疗愈，有时就仿佛原地打转。

I found that people could make a lot of progress in their own lives and healing from trauma and really difficult situations, but if they did not do the necessary healing with regard to their partnerships and connections with other people, sometimes it was almost like they were running in place.

因此，我决定将我的实践更专注于健康与良好关系的维护。

And so that's why I decided to focus my practice more specifically on wellness and healthy relationships.

太棒了，哇，我想起你刚开始做这份工作的时候，也就是2000年代初，那时候我们根本不太谈论创伤疗愈。

Amazing, wow, and I think about the time that you started this work, like in the early 2000s, we weren't really talking about healing trauma.

一点都不常见，真的非常不常见，绝对不常见。

Not common at all, not very common at all, definitely not.

是的，就连心理咨询当时也还算是个禁忌话题。

Yeah, and therapy even was still kind of like taboo.

我现在甚至都不太愿意这么说，因为我现在是心理咨询的坚定支持者，但当时进入这个行业是什么感觉呢？

I hate even saying that now because I'm a huge, huge proponent of therapy, but wow, what was that like getting into that industry too?

我的意思是，我刚起步的时候，大家都很困惑：你这是在做什么？

I mean, I think, you know, when I first started, it was, everyone was kind of like, what are you doing?

人们都在琢磨：你为什么专攻这个领域？

People were kind of trying to figure, why are you focusing on this?

而我之所以专注于此，是因为来找我的来访者，反复提出的都是这些问题。

And again, the reason why I focused on it was just because the clients that were coming to see me, those were the issues that they came to me with again and again and again.

所以我只是以此为动力，将我的实践方向聚焦于此，但当时这确实并不常见。

And so I just kind of use that as the motivation to focus my practice in that way, but it definitely was not common.

在我职业生涯初期，我还曾与Match公司 extensively 合作，担任约会专家。

I worked a lot with Match at the beginning of my career as a dating expert as well.

而且，作为一名治疗师，当时这样做也并不常见。

And again, as a therapist, that wasn't very common at the time either.

现在这种情况更普遍了，但在我职业生涯初期与他们合作时，这依然非常独特、不同寻常，但却是有道理的，很有道理。

It's more common now, but at the time when I was working with them for the beginning of my career, again, that was also very unique and kind of different and unusual, but it made sense, it made sense.

哇，是的。

Wow, yeah.

我想起之前我浏览过你的社交媒体，我们共同的好友奥黛丽还在Twitter上把我们联系在了一起，这真是太棒了。

And I think about, I mean, I was browsing your social media earlier and even a dear friend of both of ours, Audrey, connected us on Twitter, which is awesome.

你好，奥黛丽。

Hi, Audrey.

是的，嗨，姑娘。

Yeah, hey girl.

我喜欢这些平台给我们带来的这种连接方式，因为你知道，我们可能根本不会在现实中相遇。但我向宇宙表达了我想寻找一位约会和关系专家的意愿，这个我们待会儿再深入聊。

I love when we, like, the opportunity that these platforms afford us to connect in this way where, you know, we probably wouldn't have met in person, but I I put it out there in the universe that I was looking for a dating and relationship expert, and we'll get more into that.

然后，你就直接出现在了我的推特上。

And then, you know, you just came right in my my Twitter

我在这儿呢。

Here I am.

太棒了。

Cool.

所以，我真的想聊聊，显然，现在约会和关系方面有两面情况。

So, yeah, I really wanna talk about I mean, there's two sides to obviously what's happening with dating and relationships right now.

一方面像我这样，已经单身了不知多久的人。

There's the people like myself who've been single for God knows how long.

对吧？

Right?

另一方面，那些在封锁期间被迫与伴侣长时间相处的人，他们的关系受到了极大的考验。

And then there's people who were really put to the test with their relationships during lockdown because they had to spend more time with their partners than they probably ever had.

超出了他们的预期。

Than they ever anticipated.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

没错。

Yep.

所以，我想先说一下，

So, yeah, I wanna start,

我的意思是，既然这是我的播客，我想聊聊重新开始约会的事，你知道的，即使听众对疫苗接种有各种看法，但如今疫苗打完了，场所也开放了，我们也不用再戴口罩了。

I mean, just because this is my podcast, I wanna talk about, yeah, getting back into dating, you know, after being vaccinated regardless of how everyone listening feels about that, but things being open, we're not having to wear mask anymore.

我们可以跟陌生人交谈了。

We can talk to strangers.

我们不再仅仅躲在屏幕后面了。

We're not solely behind our screens.

这感觉有点奇怪。

And it's a weird feeling.

这确实是一种奇怪的感觉。

It's definitely a weird feeling.

而且这需要一些时间，你知道的？

And it's gonna take some time, you know?

我的意思是，我觉得这是个令人兴奋的时刻，特别是我在加州，事情终于开始真正向我们开放了，这真的很令人兴奋。

I mean, I think it's an exciting time, especially, you know, I'm in California, so things are really finally kind of starting to open up for us, which is really exciting.

但我认为这仍然需要一些时间。

But I also think it's going to take some time.

会有一个过渡期，因为即使事情已经开放了，也不意味着你会立刻感到舒适，能够马上重新走出去与人面对面见面，尤其是结识陌生人。

There's going to be a transition period because just because things are open, it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be comfortable immediately to just jump back out there and meet people in person, especially meeting strangers.

这可能仍然是一个渐进的过程。

That still may be a little bit of a process.

所以我认为每个人都需要对自己非常有耐心，不断自我审视，确保不要强迫自己在还没准备好之前就急于行动。

So I think that everyone's going to have to be really patient with themselves and really checking in and making sure that you are not forcing things sooner than what you're really ready for.

慢慢来，试着逐步适应，并享受这个过程。

And just take your time and try to kind of ease in and have fun with it.

这真是很好的建议。

That's great advice.

我的意思是，我真的想谈谈舒适感这件事，因为上周我和一个女朋友出去吃晚饭时，我们居然忘了餐厅晚上会变成酒吧场景，因为我们已经很久没这样出门了。

I mean, I really want to talk about the comfortability piece because I even found myself I was out having dinner with a girlfriend last week and we forgot that, you know, the restaurant turns into a bar scene at night because we haven't been out like that in so dang long.

他们就问：这是怎么回事？

And They're like, what's going on?

就像

It's like

晚上10点，什么？

Like, 10PM, what?

你知道吗，有一百多人涌进来，没人戴口罩。

You know, there's, like, a 100 people coming in and no one's wearing a mask.

大家都互动着，这简直让人震惊，我虽然是个外向的人，但当时也觉得：该回家了。

Like, everyone's interacting and it was almost like shocking and I'm an extrovert, but it was kind of like, okay, time to go home.

这确实挺多的，是的，是的，是的。

It's a lot, yep, yep, yep.

这完全没问题。

And that's totally fine.

这完全没问题。

And that's totally okay.

你知道，我觉得要循序渐进，一点点地让自己适应，你完全不必因为别人在这么做就立刻把自己扔进社交场合。

You know, I think baby steps, you know, like exposing yourself a little bit at a time, You definitely don't have to throw yourself out there immediately just because that's what other people might be doing.

你得好好自我评估一下，比如，你已经坚持了三十分钟，感觉还不错，那就可以继续往前走了。

You have to really check-in and say like, okay, maybe you did thirty minutes of that and that was cool and you're ready to make your way.

这没问题。

That's fine.

这也很好。

That's okay too.

是的，我喜欢这种根据自己的节奏来把握的想法。

Yeah, I like that idea of like timing yourself.

你想想，好吧，我这次出门了。

You're like, okay, I did that outing.

我对此部分很有共鸣。

I get a part for that.

是的，那很好。

Yeah, that was good.

是的，这将是一个过程。

Yeah, it's gonna be a process.

这对我们所有人来说都将是一个过程。

It's going to be a process for all of us.

是的，我的意思是，就只是想想，比如，我该去哪里认识志同道合的人呢？

Yeah, I mean, far as like, just even thinking about, like, okay, where do I meet like minded people?

因为我听很多专家说，他们会说，哦，你就做你本来就喜欢的事情就行。

Because I've heard from so many experts, they'll say, like, oh, you know, just doing whatever it is that you already love.

而那不一定非得是去酒吧或俱乐部。

And maybe that's not necessarily like going out to a bar or a club.

但我想，即使我在健身课或健身房，我也不确定现在是否愿意被人搭讪。

But I think about even if I were at my workout class or a gym, I don't know if I'd wanna be approached right now.

不过，我觉得这真是很好的建议。

Well, think it's great advice though.

我觉得，做你喜欢的事情，当你处于一个真正舒适、享受所做之事的状态时，你几乎是在展现最棒、最真实的自己。

I think, you know, the idea of you doing things that you love, I think when you're in that really comfortable space where you enjoy what you do, that's kind of like you're almost expressing the best version of yourself, the truest version of who you are.

所以在那样的时刻，如果产生了某种吸引力，我认为很多人在这方面都取得了成功，因为那时你的防备已经放下了。

And so if there's some attraction that happens in that moment, I think people have had a lot of success with that because your walls are down, you know.

如果你不想去参加那种拘谨的高档晚宴，穿着不舒服的裙子或高跟鞋，你知道，这在约会中有时确实是个挑战。所以我认为，如果我们能创造更多让你感到舒适的环境，当你舒适时，才能真正看清自己与谁产生共鸣，这样的联系才会更牢固。

If you don't want to go to like a stuffy dinner that's super fancy and you're like, you know, wearing an uncomfortable dress or heels that aren't totally comfortable, You know, sometimes that can really be a challenge in dating, so I think the more that we can create environment where we're comfortable, and then when we're comfortable, really seeing who we connect with, the connections are going to be stronger.

我认为这能奠定更稳固的基础，也会更真实，因为你展现的是真实的自己。

I think it'll be able to set a more solid foundation, and it'll be more authentic because you're being authentically you.

哦，我喜欢这个说法。

Oh, I love that.

好吧，对，你已经进入状态了，正在以最完整的自己表达自我。

Okay, yeah, you're already in your flow and you are expressing yourself in your fullest version.

而且你不会感到压力，你知道吗？

And you don't feel the pressure, you know?

有时候在不寻常的情况下，你会觉得自己必须强迫自己去做某些事，或者必须扮演一个不是真实的自己。

Sometimes when you're in your unusual situation, you feel like you have to force something or you have to be something that you're not.

所以你越能让自己感到舒适，就越好。

So the more you can make yourself comfortable, the better.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

太好了。

Great.

所以我想聊聊，因为你在Instagram上发了一篇很棒的帖子，如果你还没关注琳达的话，她在网上分享了很多精彩的内容和资源。

So I do wanna talk about because you have this great post on your Instagram, which you all if you you aren't following Rhonda, she has great posts and resources on social media.

我们稍后在节目中会分享她的链接。

We'll share her links later on in the episode.

但你谈到了常见的约会错误。

But you talk about common dating mistakes.

我特别喜欢你提到的一点：在健康的感情关系中，要专注于自己的需求和渴望，而不是别人认为你需要什么。

And I love this tidbit where you say stay focused on your needs and desires in a healthy romantic relationship versus what others think you need.

你能再详细说说这一点吗？

So could you elaborate more on that?

我认为这可能是我在约会和关系中看到的最大的错误之一。

I think that's probably one of the biggest mistakes that I see in dating and relationships.

而且，如果进一步发展，当你决定长期和某人在一起并结婚时，他人的意见真的会对我们的想法和行为产生强烈影响。

And I mean, even going further down the line, if you decide to stay with someone long term and get married, other people's opinions can really have a strong impact on our thoughts and on our behaviors.

尤其是在约会过程中，你很容易被他人的看法所左右，比如你妈妈对你这段关系的看法，或者她认为你应该和什么样的人交往，又或者你的朋友非常挑剔，让你觉得不能和那种人约会。

And especially when you're in the dating process, it can be easy to get caught up in maybe what your mom thinks, like what your mom thinks about your relationship or, you know, the kind of person that you should be with, or, you know, maybe if your friends are very judgmental or, you know, you don't want to date anybody like that.

你可能会开始感受到压力，逐渐根据他们认为你应该想要什么、或者他们想象你应该和谁在一起，来缩小自己的约会范围。

You can start to feel the pressure and you can kind of start to narrow your dating life based on what it is that they think you should want or who they visualize you being with.

这可能会非常棘手，因为有时候他们的建议会把你引向错误的方向，最终你陷入了一段关系，而如果你自己真正掌舵的话，根本不会开始这段关系。

And so it can be very tricky because sometimes they can steer you in the wrong direction and you end up in relationships that, you know, if you were really guiding and steering the ship, you would never begin to begin with.

此外，当你这么做时，我在与客户合作时发现，有时会出现一些自我破坏的行为，因为你根本不想和这个人在一起，但你觉得自己应该要在一起，或者别人常说这个人‘纸上谈兵’不错，所以你觉得自己应该喜欢他或她。

And on top of that, when you do that, what I find when I'm working with clients, sometimes there's some self sabotage that comes into play with relationship because you didn't really want to be in the relationship to begin with with this person, but it felt like you should, or it felt like people often say this person's good on paper, so I feel like I should like him or her.

因此，我们又一次屈服于这种压力，来自媒体、社交媒体、朋友、家人等各方面的信息都在影响着我们。

And so again, we kind of give into some of that pressure and we get messages from everywhere, from media, social media, friends, family, everyone.

要理清自己的信念、在关系中真正想要的东西，与他人告诉你应该想要、应该思考或追求的东西，这本身就很困难。

It can be tough to even sort out what your beliefs are, what your desires are in a relationship versus what everyone else is telling you that you should want or that you should think or seek out.

因此，停下来花时间弄清楚你真正想要什么至关重要，这样当你接收到其他信息时，就不会被左右，因为你清楚自己想要什么，也知道方向在哪里。

So it's really important that you stop to take the time to figure out what it is exactly that you want for yourself so that when you're getting those other messages, you're not swayed because you know exactly what you want and you know where you're going.

是的。

Mhmm.

那你建议怎么做呢？

And what do you recommend doing?

我们应该把事情列出来，还是在心里列个清单？或者写下来会更有效，就像一种显化过程之类的？

Should we list things out or like have a mental list or is it more powerful to like write it down as kind of like a manifestation process almost or something like that?

我非常支持把事情写下来，我来告诉你为什么。

I'm a big fan of writing things down, and I'll tell you why.

我认为首先，这样你能变得非常清晰，因为当思绪在脑海中纷乱时，有时很难理清：我到底在想什么？

I think number one, you get really clear because when things are going on in your head, sometimes it's, again, it's hard to sort out, but what am I thinking?

嗯，我有点想要这样。

Well, I kind of want this.

当你把想法写在纸上时，你会被迫清晰地表达出你真正想要的是什么。

When you write it down on paper, you're forced to be really clear about exactly what it is that you're saying that you want.

有时候，当你写下来之后，会发现某些内容并不完全一致。

And sometimes when you write it down, things may not necessarily match up.

你可能会写下一些东西，然后问自己：我真的想要那个吗？

You can write something down and go, Oh, do I really want that?

这感觉上更像是一种最终的决定。

It feels a little more final.

所以你必须确保自己清楚地知道究竟想要什么。

So you want to be sure and clear about what it is that you want.

这非常重要。

That's really important.

但同时，你也需要对其中一些事情保持一定的灵活性。

But you also want to be sure that you have some flexibility around some of those things.

因此，虽然你可以写下某些特质或你正在寻找的东西，但更重要的是关注你在关系中的感受、你希望感受到的情绪，以及你理想中的生活方式。

And so while you can write down certain qualities or things that you're looking for, it's also important to focus on how you feel, how you want to feel in a relationship, and what you want your lifestyle to look like.

比如，我有时会和客户一起工作，他们会说，哦，我想和从事某个特定行业的人约会，比如在职场上。

So for example, sometimes I work with clients and they'll say, oh, you know, want to date someone in this particular field, for example, for work.

我更希望对方有这份工作或那份工作。

I prefer them to have this job or that.

有时我们会沉溺于这些幻想，却没有真正思考这些对长期生活方式意味着什么。

And so sometimes we can give into some of those fantasies without understanding what that means long term lifestyle wise.

比如，如果你说：‘我太想和医生约会了。’

So for example, if you say, I'm, you know, I'm just dying to date a doctor.

你知道，这一直是我梦想。

You know, that's been my dream.

不管出于什么原因，我一定要和医生约会，好吧。

I have to date a physician for whatever reason, fine.

但很多时候，我们并没有认真考虑过这种生活方式究竟是怎样的，以及它是否真的与你想要的生活相容。

But sometimes we're not really giving much thought around what that lifestyle looks like and whether or not that's actually compatible with the kind of life that you want to live.

这个人会在你希望他/她陪伴的时候出现吗？

Will this person be available when you'd like them to be?

他们经常出差吗？

Do they travel a lot or not?

所以，在你列完这份清单后，你还想进一步思考：这些愿望是否与你想要的生活方式相符？

And so you also want to take it the next step further once you make that list and really figure out, is that in line, are those desires in line with the kind of lifestyle that you want to live or not?

哇，这真的很有力量。

Wow, that's really powerful.

我以前从未这样看待过这个问题，因为我们的社会，尤其是我们，总是非常重视职业和收入。

And I've never framed it in that way because we always I mean, our, like, society especially, we really put so much value on careers and income.

这其实引出了我的下一个问题，因为我自己也这样，朋友们也说我这样，就是谈恋爱时。

And I this actually leads me to my next question because I'm guilty of it, my friends accuse me of it, but of dating.

我承认，好吧？

I'm owning it, okay?

承认吧。

Own it.

我喜欢这样。

I love it.

我喜欢这样。

I love it.

但我约会的对象条件比我差。

But I date down.

我曾经有一位治疗师，大概五年前吧，她写过一本关于这个的书，她一直极力劝我，她核心的观点就是：‘艾莉，你为什么总在降级约会？’

And I had a therapist at one point, I I wanna say, gosh, like five years ago, who wrote a book about it and she was really trying to push the that was like her whole thing was like, you know, Ali, why are you dating down?

那么，你通常怎么建议你的客户或你所帮助的人呢？

And so, I mean, how do you advise clients on that or people you work with?

因为我知道，这需要我从内心去疗愈，这关乎自我价值和自尊。

Because I know it's something I have to heal within myself and it's a self, you know, self worth and value thing.

但同时，我也看到一些人，他们很有艺术气质、富有创造力，我真的被这种特质吸引。

But it's also, I see these people who I'm like, wow, you know, they're artsy and creative and I I'm really drawn to that.

但这种吸引力却让我忽略了背后那些真正重要的事。

But then that's distracting me from everything behind the scenes.

这整个情况一团乱。

That's a whole mess.

所有伴随这些的东西，对吧？

Everything that comes with that, right?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我的意思是，首先回到我之前说的，关于 dating down，重要的是要清楚这对你的意义是什么。

So I mean, I think number one, kind of going back to what I was saying earlier, when it comes to dating down, I think it's important to really be clear with what that means for you.

因为对我而言的 dating down，可能和对你而言的不同。

Because dating down for me might be different than it is for you.

对你朋友来说也可能不同。

It might be different for your friends.

所以，首先，当你说到 dating down 时，明确它的含义很重要。

So I think it's important to be clear, first of all, like what does it mean when you're saying to date down?

现在，如果你指的是可能和那些我们称之为‘项目型’的人约会，也就是那些需要你很多支持、需要你推动他们前进的人。

Now, if you're talking about maybe dating individuals that are what we call like kind of like projects, like people that need a lot from you, they need a lot of support, they need you to kind of help push them along.

我认为，确实有必要深入审视这一点，并疗愈过去可能让你吸引这类人进入你生活的那些经历。

I think it's definitely important to look into that and heal from some of the things that maybe have happened in the past that have kind of led you to draw those kinds of people into your life.

因为归根结底，一段关系是需要两个人共同参与的，对吧？

Because at the end of the day, you know, in a relationship, it takes two, right?

所以你们在某种程度上必须平等相处。

And so you've got to come together equally to some extent.

当一段关系中只有一个人在付出，只有一个人在推动和激励，所有精力和时间都单向流动时，这对任何关系——无论是浪漫的还是其他的——都不是好事。

And when you have one person that's doing all the work in a relationship, when you have one person that's doing all the pushing and all the motivating, and you know, if all that energy and that time is kind of flowing in one direction, that's never good for any relationship, whether it's romantic or not.

你希望这段关系是相互的。

You want the relationship to be mutual.

所以你要确保自己也能从这段关系中获得一些东西。

So you want to be sure that you're getting something from the relationship as well.

它不应该是一边倒的，而你的伴侣却过着他们最好的生活，对吧？

It's not just one-sided and your partner's, you know, living their best life, right?

而你却不断被耗尽时间与精力，彻底枯竭。

And then you're getting like drained of all your time and energy and you're completely depleted.

在我看来，这不能算作一段健康的关系。

In my opinion, I wouldn't define that as a healthy relationship.

所以你希望这段关系是相互的。

So you want it to be mutual.

而且，对一些人来说，他们可能会觉得这是在‘向下恋爱’，但取决于这段关系本身——如果它是相互的，你们都能从中获得所需，相处融洽，关系健康，双方都快乐，那我就不会认为这是‘向下恋爱’。

And again, for some people, they may perceive it as dating down, but depending on the relationship, if it's mutual and you're getting what you need and they're getting what they need and you guys work well together and it's healthy and you're both happy, I don't consider that to be dating down.

好的。

Okay.

我非常喜欢这一点，因为我觉得现在有一种很流行的趋势，尤其是作为女性创业者，人们常说：‘你就不该和收入不如你或比你低的男人约会。’

I love that because I feel like there's, you know, there's such a popular trend, especially with, you know, being a woman entrepreneur and stuff that saying, oh, you shouldn't be dating men, for example, who aren't making the same income threshold as you or more.

我知道这源于我们所处的父权社会根深蒂固的观念。

And I know that's like a deep rooted thing in the patriarchy, patriarchal society we live in.

但我一想到这个，就会想：如果和某人有着如此美好的灵魂共鸣呢？

But, I mean, I just think about that and then it's like, well, what if you have this beautiful soul connection with someone?

是的，那些因素确实重要。

Yes, those things matter.

而且，我 obviously 是个浪漫主义者，所以

And obviously, I'm a romantic, so

我明白。

I get it.

不。

No.

而且很容易陷入对收入的执着，希望对方有特定的收入水平。

And it's it's it's it's easy to get stuck, you know, in terms of like income and wanting someone to make a certain amount of money.

是的。

Yeah.

但同样，我认为我们必须从更宏观的角度来看，约会时很容易只关注当下、当下、当下，对吧？

But again, I think we have to kind of think big picture and it's easy when we're dating to kind of be thinking in the moment, in the moment, in the moment, right?

比如，他今天赚这么多，我今天赚这么多，她今天赚这么多，我今天赚这么多。

Like, okay, he's making this much today, I'm making this much today, she's making this much today, I'm making this much today.

很容易被当前的情况牵着走，却不去考虑长远。

It's easy to get caught up in what's happening currently, right, without thinking long term.

我接触过一些客户，他们本身非常成功，他们的伴侣也极其富有。

I work with clients who who are have, very successful in their own right, whose partners are incredibly financially successful in their own right.

有些人非常痛苦。

Some are quite miserable.

有些人非常痛苦。

Some are quite miserable.

所以，从外面看，关系可能显得完美而令人羡慕，但这也是另一个问题：人们会以某种方式呈现他们的关系，让没有内部信息的外人觉得‘天啊，这简直是完美的关系，完美的状况’，但内在可能并非如此。

And so while on the outside it may look perfect and amazing, I mean, that's another thing too, is people can present their relationships in a way to where an outsider that has no inside information would be like, Oh my God, this is the perfect relationship, this the perfect situation, but on the inside that may not be the case.

因此，当我们谈论收入时，我总是保持警惕，并希望对此保持清醒。

So I'm always kind of leery and just want to be mindful of that when we're talking about income.

听起来可能很棒，比如我们收入相当，过得不错，也很成功，但如果你想长期维系这段关系，光有这些是远远不够的。

It can sound great, like we make this same amount of money and we're doing well and we're successful, but you're going to need a whole lot more than that if you want to sustain the relationship long term.

完全正确。

Totally.

财务状况总是会变化的。

And finances can always change.

今天某人可能收入颇丰。

Someone could be making great money today.

我的意思是，我们已经看到疫情时期的情况，还有多年前的经济崩溃，事情确实会发生，情况也会改变。

And I mean, we've seen it with the pandemic and then we've seen it with other situations, the crash, you know, many years ago, like things can happen and things can change.

所以如果这个人失去了收入，你们的关系那时会处于什么状态？

And so if that individual loses that income, where does your relationship stand at that point?

天哪。

Yikes.

是的。

Yeah.

我其实和我的朋友坎迪斯进行了一次很棒的对话。

And I actually had a great conversation with my friend, Candice.

我得帮你俩认识一下。

I'll have to connect you too.

对。

Yes.

她也在洛杉矶。

She's in in LA as well.

但确实如此。

But yeah.

我们聊了很多关于这一点，甚至在洛杉矶约会本身就很困难。

We talked a lot about that and then kind of even just being in dating in Los Angeles is tough.

确实很难。

And I It's tough.

因为

Because

这里有太多漂亮又年轻的年轻人，他们已经取得了成功，或者正在追求我们所向往的那种成就。

there are, you know, so many beautiful young people who are successful or obtaining this level of success that we, you know, we strive for.

所以你会想，哦，好吧。

So you're like, oh, okay.

我要是和这个人约会两次后觉得不合适，就干脆去约会软件上找别人约会。

Well, I'm I'm just gonna go on this dating app and I'll find someone else to go on a date with if it's not working out with this person after like two dates.

所以是的，我现在在疫情后看到很多这样的情况。

So yeah, I'm seeing that a lot right now post pandemic.

我的意思是，我们才刚过了几周，但是

I mean, we're only like, what, weeks out, but

关于约会应用也很有意思，因为我们发现已经有很多研究了。

With the It's interesting with the dating apps too, because what we found, there's been a lot of research that's been done.

Match公司实际上也做了很多研究。

Match has actually done a lot of research too.

所以我们发现，特别是随着约会应用，以及疫情可能即将结束（希望如此），这些应用中存在一种有趣的游戏化效应，你之前也稍微提到过，比如‘我可以在应用上找到别人’，或者有些人使用约会应用、结识新人时会感到一种肾上腺素激增和兴奋感。

And so what we're finding, especially with dating apps, and like with the pandemic kind of hopefully, fingers crossed, kind of coming to an end, there is an interesting gaming effect with apps that you kind of touched on a little bit in terms of kind of like, oh, I can find somebody else on the app or there's kind of an adrenaline rush and a boost that some folks get when they're using dating apps and meeting new people.

因此，当你在线上匹配成功时，有时会有一种强烈的兴奋感。

And so sometimes if you're finding a match online, there's almost a rush of excitement that you get when that happens.

所以有时候，人们寻找的可能并不是当下真正的伴侣，而是不断追逐那种结识新的人、建立联系，然后渴望与下一个人连接的快感。

And so sometimes what people are searching for may not necessarily be a partner in that moment, but it may be kind of like chasing that rush again and again of meeting people and connecting and then wanting to connect with the next person.

因此，有时你会看到一些人只约会了几次，就想着‘我们重新开始吧’。

And so sometimes that's what you see when you have folks who's going on a couple of dates and it's like, let's start over again.

回到应用上，重新开始。

Let's go back to the app and start over.

这就像一次快速的多巴胺刺激。

It's like that quick dopamine hit.

是的。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

这是一次快速的刺激。

It's a quick hit.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

然后这就引出了这一点：你在这些应用上和这么多人交谈，试图有意识地进行，假设你交谈的对象也怀有相似的意图，然后你才逐渐真正了解他们，因为我们所有人在线上展现的都是和现实中不同的自我。

And then that kind of leads into this, you know, you're having all these conversations with so many people on these apps and trying to be intentional about it and assuming, you know, that the people you're speaking with hopefully have, like, a similar intentions and then you kinda get to actually know them because we all, you know, we're all a different persona online than we are in person.

没错。

Absolutely.

我长期从事社交媒体工作，对此深有体会。

And I've learned that really well working in social media for so long.

就像是，哦，好吧，等等，幕后到底发生了什么？

It's like, oh, okay, wait, what's actually going on behind the scenes?

没错。

Right.

所以

So

我的意思是，当你发现自己陷入这些对话中，感到情绪上很耗竭时，你建议如何建立一些界限，甚至决定谁有资格占用你的时间和精力？

I mean, when you find yourself getting caught up and having those conversations and feeling like it's emotionally draining, and how do you recommend, like, you kind of create some boundaries there or even decide who gets access to your time and energy too?

哦，社交媒体真的很难处理。

Oh, it's really difficult with social media.

你知道，我总是说，我成长的时候还没有社交媒体。

You know, I always say I didn't grow up with social media.

所以我特别理解那些从小就在社交媒体环境中成长、却不得不盲目摸索的人，因为我们那一代人没经历过这些。

So I feel for those that have kind of had to grow up with that and navigate that blindly because the rest of us didn't experience that.

所以这确实很难，但设定社交媒体的界限非常重要，总的来说，我非常支持这一点。

And so it is really difficult, but it is really important to set boundaries when it comes to social media, just overall, I'm a big fan of that.

我认为第一步是真正理解，就像我之前提到的，我们有时会过于专注于呈现某种特定的人设。

And I think the first step is really understanding, like I was mentioning before, sometimes we get so focused on presenting a particular persona.

所以，就我们的关系而言，我拥有一段绝佳的关系。

So again, with our relationships, I have an amazing relationship.

你知道，婚姻，我的婚姻里没什么问题，对吧？

You know, marriage, there's nothing wrong in my marriage, right?

一切都非常好。

Everything is fantastic.

我们太沉迷于呈现关于自己、关于关系、关于事业等各方面的特定形象了。

We get so caught up in presenting a particular image about ourselves, about our relationships, about our careers, everything.

这样做的不幸之处在于，我们花了大量时间和精力去让事情看起来特定的样子，而不是投入时间和精力去确保现实中真的如此。

The unfortunate part of that is that we end up spending so much time and energy making things look a particular way versus putting in the time and energy to make sure that that's actually the case in real life.

人们投入大量时间和精力，确保自己的恋爱生活看起来很棒，比如人们在旅行，而且外界对让一切看起来特定的样子施加了很大压力。

People are putting a lot of time and energy to making sure that their dating lives look amazing, that, you know, people are traveling and that, you know, there's much pressure to make things look a particular way.

我想说的是，尽你所能设立界限，这样你就永远不会忘记：你不希望你的线上生活取代现实生活，对吧？

And I would say just do everything that you can to set boundaries so that you never forget that you don't want your online life to replace your life in real life, right?

你真实而真实的生活。

Your actual authentic life.

你不希望失去它。

You don't want to lose that.

你必须小心，因为在使用社交媒体的某些时候，很容易不知不觉陷入这种状态。

And you have to be careful because there will be different times when you're using social media where it's easy to slip into that.

你很容易怀疑自己，觉得也许我不够好，也许我做得不够多。

And it's easy to doubt yourself and to feel like, well, maybe I'm not enough, maybe I'm not doing enough.

或者如果你在约会，会觉得我永远无法和这个人或那个人竞争，或者也许这个人永远不会和我约会。

Or if you're dating, feeling like, oh, I could never compete with this person or that person, or, you know, maybe this person would never date me.

但正如你所说，那并不是他们真实的一面。

But that's not their real persona as you mentioned.

我们每个人都有一个在展示的线上人设。

We all have an online persona that we're presenting.

那只是一个快照，对吧？

It's a snapshot, right?

所以这可能只是你的一部分，但绝对不是你的全部。

So maybe it's a piece of you, but it's definitely not all of you.

对我们所有人来说都是如此。

And that's the case for all of us across the board.

因此，记住这一点并时不时地休息一下很重要。

So it's important to keep that in mind and sometimes take breaks.

在社交媒体上休息一下。

Take breaks in social media.

如果有一些账号总是让你感到耗尽、自我怀疑或降低自信，你可以取关。

And if there are accounts that kind of always leave you feeling depleted or maybe doubting yourself or leave you feeling less confident, you can unfollow.

非常对。

Very true.

这是些明智的建议。

That's some sage advice.

你可以直接取关，好的。

You can just unfollow, yeah.

是的。

Yep.

我觉得，你知道，因为我们被社交媒体淹没，总是泡在这些应用里，我这里说得有点笼统，但这确实导致了失联，因为我曾经也被失联过，也可能自己也做过类似的事，所以我努力留出空间去理解这种情况。

And I feel like, you know, because we are so inundated with social media and being on these apps and, you know, I'm generalizing here, but that does lead to ghosting because I think that and I try to, you know, leave space for when I, in the past, have been ghosted or maybe I have been guilty of doing it too.

我不想为此负责，因为你知道，现在是2021年，我正在努力疗愈自己，做一个成熟的成年人。

I don't I don't wanna own that because, you know, we're trying to it's 2021, I'm trying to heal and be, you know, a full adult here.

但这种情况确实导致了失联，因为人们太疲惫了，根本没法完整地出现，也无法坦诚地说：‘我现在真的不适合聊天。’

But, like, that does lead to the ghosting because people are so drained that they're, like, not coming and showing up fully as themselves and saying like, you know what, I'm not in a place to talk right now.

有时候，真的很难做到这一点。

And it's so hard to do that sometimes.

确实很难，但非常重要，尤其是在疫情期间。

It's really hard to do it, but it's really important, especially during the pandemic.

我看到很多浪漫关系中都出现了失联现象。

I saw a lot of kind of ghosting happening in romantic relationships.

我见过一些人以非常奇特的方式分手，这可能是他们平时不会做的，原因就是疫情以及当时发生的各种其他问题。

I've seen, you know, individuals kind of breaking up in very kind of peculiar ways that maybe they wouldn't normally just because of everything that was happening with the pandemic and all the other issues that were going on.

所以我一直说，首先，当你经历被冷处理时，这确实会非常痛苦，但另一方面，你永远不知道对方正在经历什么。

And so what I've always said, first of all, is while it can be really painful when you experience ghosting, the other side of that is you also never know what someone's going through.

这很难，你知道，我们总是希望在关系中获得一个了结。

And that's hard, you know, mean, I know we always want closure in relationships.

我们总是希望能有最后一次对话，比如：嘿，如果这段关系行不通也没关系，至少我们能有一次最后的通话或见面，好好谈谈，获得一个了结，那会是最好的情况。

We always want to be able to kind of have that final conversation like, hey, if it's not working out fine, if we could just have kind of like a final call or a final meetup just to kind of discuss it and have closure, that would be ideal.

但有些情况下，你可能会被冷处理，或者你正处于一种完全无力再付出任何东西的状态。

But there will be certain situations where you may get ghosted or you may be in a situation where you just have nothing, you just literally have nothing else to give at that point.

因此，我认为作为人类，我们有必要给自己一点宽容，也给别人一点宽容，尤其是考虑到最近发生的一切。

And so to that, say, I do think it's important as human beings for us to grant ourselves a little bit of grace and grant other people a little bit of grace, especially given everything that's gone on recently.

我知道有些人可能在一年前就深受困扰，现在才慢慢回到那些关系中，解释说：这就是我过去一年所经历的事情。

I know there are individuals that have struggled significantly, maybe as of a year ago, and they're just now kind of coming back around to some of those relationships to kind of explain like, this is what I was dealing with over the last year.

我当时没有足够的精力，或许也没有足够的勇气，去完全向你说明发生了什么。

I just didn't have the energy or maybe the courage to be able to explain to you fully what was happening.

我觉得自己无法准确表达出来。

I didn't think I could articulate it properly.

所以我看到一些愈合和释怀正在发生，尤其是在这段经历即将结束的时候，这真是令人欣慰。

And so I see some of that healing happening and some of that closure happening now that we're kind of toward the tail end of it, which good to see.

但我们也必须承认，在某些情况下，我们可能得不到这种释怀。

But I think we have to also acknowledge in some cases we may not get that closure.

所以有时候，你必须为自己创造释怀，然后继续前行。

So sometimes you have to kind of create that closure for yourself and move on.

但说实话，‘消失’这个话题非常困难，我认为它比我们愿意承认的要更加微妙和复杂。

But it's really, ghosting is so, it's such a difficult topic, you know, and I think it's more nuanced and more complicated than we like to acknowledge.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为社交媒体上还有一种说法，就是当有人消失时，我们总是把他们妖魔化。

And I think there is also, you know, that rhetoric on social media where it's like we're demonizing people when they do ghost.

而正如你提到的，我们也在努力为人们创造宽容和空间。

And then, like you mentioned, you know, we're trying to create grace and space for people.

所以对于那些被放鸽子或曾经放别人鸽子的人来说，我们知道大家现在都还在共同经历着一些事情。

So for, you know, who maybe are ghosted or have ghosted and know that, like, we're all going through something collectively still.

我明白

I get

比如全球大流行，对吧？

into a global pandemic, right?

是的，是的。

Yep, yep.

过去一年半发生了太多事情，你知道的？

A lot has happened over the last year and a half, you know?

当然，也确实有些人只是因为好玩或者图刺激才放鸽子，这当然很糟糕，对吧？

Now, again, you do have some that just ghost for fun or they ghost for kicks and that's horrible, obviously, right?

所以这类情况也确实存在。

So you do have those situations as well.

但我认为对绝大多数人来说，通常都有一些未解决的问题和其他原因。

But I think for the vast majority of folks, there are typically some issues and other things that they haven't resolved.

有时候，人们根本不知道该如何结束一段关系。

And sometimes people just don't know how to end relationships across the board.

有些人非常害怕冲突，害怕伤害别人，不知道该说什么，或者担心对方会哭，于是干脆完全回避。

And some people are so scared of confrontation or scared of hurting anyone or they don't know what to say or what if the other person cries and they just shy away from it altogether.

我不是在找借口，但我也经常看到客户出现这种情况。

Not to make an excuse, but that's something that I see happening with clients a lot as well.

他们就是不知道该如何结束一段关系。

They just don't know how to end relationships.

我认为这是我们讨论得不够多的一个话题。

And I think that's something that we don't talk about enough.

你知道吗，当我们年轻的时候，比如青少年时期，就应该早点讨论这个问题。

You know, when we're younger, like when we're teenagers, that's something we should be talking about early on.

该如何结束一段关系？

How do you end a relationship?

哇，这真有力量。

Wow, that's powerful.

甚至如何处理这些情绪也是如此。

And even just how to process those emotions too.

是的，这是一种失去。

Yeah, it's loss.

这一切都是失去和悲伤。

All of it is loss and grief.

这都是过程的一部分。

It's all part of the process.

但这需要时间。

But it takes time.

这是一种技能。

It's a skill.

这是一种你需要培养的技能，以学会如何应对这种情况。

It's a skill that you have to build to figure out how do you navigate that.

是的，我看到很多，再说回社交媒体，很多网红经历过非常公开的关系。

Yeah, I've seen a lot of, I mean, keep coming back to social media, but a lot of influencers who've had, like, very public relationships.

而且，不管你怎么看待这一点，我其实很想听听你对那些在社交媒体上事无巨细分享恋爱生活的人有什么看法。

And, you know, regardless of how you feel about that, I actually would be interested to hear what you have to say about people who do post everything about about their love life online.

所以我来跟你说说我的经历，我就直接分享我的经验。

So I'll tell you my my my experience, I'll just tell you my experience.

这是我的观点。

This is my perspective.

作为一名治疗师，我不喜欢看到情侣们不断发布关于他们关系的内容。

I don't love to see couples constantly posting about their relationships as a therapist.

在很多情况下，这可能是一个小小的警示信号。

In many cases that can sometimes be a little bit of a red flag.

而且，again，取决于具体情况，在社交媒体时代，对某些人来说，这可能是商业安排。

And again, it depends, again, in the age of social media for some, there may be business arrangements.

所以，你知道，他们可能因为商业原因或其他理由需要发布彼此的照片。

And so, you know, they may need to post pictures of each other for business reasons or whatever.

我的意思是，我们所处的就是这样一个社交媒体的时代。

I mean, that's the age of social media that we're in.

所以确实会有一些这样的情况。

So there will be some cases like that.

但我确实认为，当人们过于强调想要展示关系的某种特定形象时，这种压力会让人难以承受。

But I do think sometimes when there's such an emphasis on wanting to again, post and present your relationship in a particular light, it can be really difficult to keep up with.

当你并不真正喜欢伴侣的某个时刻，这种压力可能会特别大。

It can be really difficult when maybe you don't, you know, you're not really liking your partner at that any given moment.

也许他们惹你生气了。

Maybe they upset you.

你还会感到必须继续发帖的压力吗？我经常看到这种情况：当人们和伴侣闹矛盾时，却依然发帖说一切都很好、无比完美。

Will you feel the pressure to continue to post anyway, which I see happening a lot when people are upset with their partner, but they will continue to post how amazing, everything is great.

这并不健康。

It's just not healthy.

当你这样做，并且不断强迫自己反复发布这些内容时，这并不健康。

It's just not healthy when you're doing that and you're kind of forcing yourself to push that out again and again.

这非常不健康。

It's incredibly unhealthy.