自慰与自我愉悦：蕾切尔·韦恩茨和阿里埃尔·卡普兰谈《Balls Deep》

不错的青春痘

Nice little acne

午后小确幸

Afternoon delight.

是的

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

我有点不一样

I'm a bit different.

我觉得我们的自慰习惯，从各个方面来看都挺不一样的

I think our masturbation habits, like, from from every point of view is pretty much different.

我以前几乎每天都自慰，但疫情后，我觉得我的性欲大幅下降了

I used to masturbate, like, almost every day, and then the pandemic, I think my libido just went really down.

我的焦虑达到了前所未有的高点，这真的会影响你自我慰藉的欲望

My anxiety's at an all time high, that can really affect your desire to pleasure yourself.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

但我最近确实稍微多了一些自慰，而且总是在晚上。

But I have been masturbating a little bit more now, and it's always at night.

我会在电脑上看色情内容，后来我才意识到这有点奇怪，但以前我根本不知道。

And I watch porn on my computer, which I've learned is a weird thing, but I did not know that before.

我不确定对所有人来说这算不算奇怪。

I don't know if it's weird for everyone.

大多数人都是用手机。

Majority of people use their phones.

我开始用手机，是因为我喜欢开很多标签页，因为我注意力特别不集中。

And I started to use my phone because the thing is, I like opening so many tabs because I'm so ADD.

我一刷到类似视频，就会点开好多标签，然后一直往下刷，实际上根本没认真看任何内容。

I as soon as I I'll scroll down to the like, more videos like this thing and just open up, like, a ton of them and then just keep going down so I'm never really watching anything.

我想，如果只用手机，或许能减少开太多标签的情况。

And I thought if I just use my phone, then maybe I can cut down on, like Your tabs.

多动症加看色情内容。

A d d porn watch.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得这有点奇怪。

I feel like it's there's something weird to it.

也许我应该

Maybe I should

在治疗中谈谈这个，但我用它来缓解性欲，这经常发生，但有时当我压力大的时候，嗯。

talk about it in therapy, but I use it to like, when I'm fucking horny, which is often, but sometimes when I'm stressed out Mhmm.

我只是不。

I just don't.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得，确实，我们知道 orgasms 对心理健康有各种科学依据。

I think too, there's there's definitely, like, well, we know there's all kinds of science behind, like, orgasms helping your mental health.

对吧？

Right?

但嗯。

But Mhmm.

就连我本人，当我感到极度焦虑时，这某种程度上是一种重新连接身体的方式，找到那种安定的能量——当你觉得一切都失控时，你可以放松下来，哪怕只是短短几分钟，与自己相处。

Even for me, like, when I'm feeling super anxious, it's kind of, like, a way to tap back into my body and find, like, that grounding energy when you're feeling, like, everything's out of my control and you can just chill out, be with yourself even if it's only for, like, a few minutes.

但只是，哦，好吧。

But just, like, oh, okay.

我能感受到这种愉悦和释放。

I can feel this pleasure and this release.

我其实有一位特别棒的性治疗师，是一位年长但非常有魅力的女士。

I actually had this, like, really cool sex therapist, like, this older hot, very hot lady.

我觉得她都不像是真实存在的人。

Like, I feel like she wasn't even real.

她就像玛丽·波平斯一样。

Like, she was just kind of like She's like a Mary Poppins.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

突然就出现了。

Like, came out of nowhere.

我当时参加一个会议，她说：你知道吗，你需要经常达到高潮，因为高潮就像哭泣、大笑或者剧烈运动一样，是一种能量释放。

I was at this conference and she's like, yeah, you know, you need to be having orgasms this often because they're an energy release just like crying or laughing or like, you know, doing a really hard workout.

我想，它们确实像一场剧烈的运动。

I I guess, like, they are a hard workout.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

当然。

Absolutely.

有时候这需要很多努力。

Sometimes it's a lot of effort.

我有时候会特别贪心，试图再逼出两到三次高潮，然后我就想：两到三次？

I'll, like, sometimes I get so greedy and I'm trying to squeeze out, like, two or three more orgasms and I'm Two or three?

满身大汗，湿漉漉的。

Sweaty and wet.

是的。

Yeah.

第三次通常不会发生。

The third one doesn't usually happen.

到那时候，我简直就像在家里燃烧了无数卡路里。

At that point, I'm, like, liter like, I have burned so many calories in my house.

是啊，我知道。

A I know.

很多。

Lot.

是的。

Yeah.

我是个贪心的婊子。

I'm a greedy bitch.

我觉得，当你不是每天都自慰时，这确实很难。

And I guess it's just hard when you don't masturbate every single day.

对我来说，我会想，哇。

Like, to me, I'm like, wow.

那真的好多啊，但你可能每天都在自慰，这其实也挺多的。

That's so many, but you're probably, like, masturbating every day is kind of a lot too.

所以

So

你一天有三次高潮和每周少三次相比，可能高潮总数差不多。

what do you to have three orgasms in a day versus, like,

对你来说

to your

如果一周少三次，那我们高潮的总量可能差不多。

three fewer times a week, then we're maybe averaging out the same amount of orgasms.

你懂的？

You know?

当我自己两次达到高潮时，第二次往往就会喷水。

When I orgasm after when I orgasm twice by myself, that's when I tend to squirt as well the second time.

哦。

Oh.

所以这就像过山车一样。

So it's like a it's like a roller coaster.

当我进入那种状态时，感觉几乎像瑜伽冥想，但并不是每次都会发生。

It feels almost tantric when I get into that, and it doesn't happen all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全明白你在说什么。

I know exactly what you're talking about.

就像，每当这种情况发生时，好吧。

Like, whenever that happens Okay.

不错。

Cool.

是的。

Yeah.

你就会想，好吧。

You're like, okay.

哇。

Wow.

我要一直沉浸在这种感觉里。

I'm gonna live in this.

别打扰我。

No one disturb me.

其实我会在门上挂个请勿打扰的牌子。

Well, I actually during like, puts a do not disturb on your door.

还有在手机上，就是那个小月亮图标，这样就没人能给你发短信或打电话了。

And the like, on your phone, like, the it's, like, the little moon sign, so no one you don't get text or calls or anything.

是的。

Yeah.

我真希望可以设置一个AIM离开消息，因为当我

I wish I could have, like, an AIM away message because when I

在电脑前时

am on my computer

即使你在手机上，也会收到你

and even if you are on your phone, you get a text from your

该死的妈妈发来的信息。

fucking mom.

我知道。

I know.

这很正常。

It's always normal.

妈妈们。

Mommies.

再也没有比家庭群聊突然弹出消息更糟的事了，尤其是你正处在自慰过程中，而这已经是两周来的第一次。

Nothing worse than the family group chop, like, popping off for the first time in two weeks while you're, like, in the middle of a masturbation session.

或者正好赶上紧急的工作任务，你心想：我真不行。

Or it's like a timely work project and you're like, I I can't.

我真的不行。

I can't.

我不会的，

I won't right

现在。

now.

它打断了我的性感歌单。

It interrupts my sexy playlist.

我心想：停一下。

I'm like, stop.

我已经精心营造了氛围，各位。

I've curated the vibe, guys.

这里确实又严厉又放松。

Totally harsh and mellow here.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Well okay.

所以对我来说，在疫情期间，因为我一个人待了太久，我发展出了某种习惯——我知道在加州，我们就像你们那样封锁了，而其他地方则不一样，我最近才意识到这一点。

So for me, during the pandemic, I kind of developed because I was spending so much time alone, I know in California, we were like you guys lockdown unlike the rest of the country, which I recently yeah.

我最近才发现，我从这里开车去了纳什维尔，进行了一次长达一个月的公路旅行。

I I recently discovered I did a month long road trip from here to Nashville.

还挺酷的。

And Kinda cool.

是的。

Yeah.

我了解到，大部分国家并没有封锁，而我们只是在公寓里当忧伤的女孩。

And I learned that most of the country didn't shut down and we were just, you know, being sad girls in our apartments.

太酷了。

So cool.

我记得在疫情中期

I remember in the middle of

疫情期间，住在俄亥俄州的父母对我说：你为什么不回来探望我们呢？

the pandemic, my parents who live in Ohio were like, why don't you come visit?

我当时说：你没注意到吗？我们现在正处于疫情期间。

I was like, I don't know if you've noticed, but we are in a pandemic.

我不会这么做的。

Like, I will not be doing that.

是的。

Yeah.

但不管怎样，我和大多数人一样，花了很多时间独处，和我的治疗师一起工作，处理我那些玄乎的东西，还有我喜欢的巫术类玩意儿。

But anyway, so spent a lot of time alone as most of us did and kind of worked I mean, worked with my therapist, worked on all my woo woo shit and, like, witchy stuff that I love.

由此，我发展出了一种我称之为女神练习的仪式，基本上就是——是的。

And with that, I developed this thing I call goddess practice, which basically yeah.

简单来说，我并不总是会上头，但如果我确实上头了，那确实能帮上大忙。

Basically, I just, like, I don't always get high, but, like, it helps a lot if I am pretty high.

哦，对的。

Oh, yeah.

然后我就只是，要么穿上内衣，要么干脆一丝不挂，披着丝绸和服站在镜子前，静静地看着自己，欣赏自己。

And really just, like, either put lingerie on or just go full nude in, a silk kimono in the mirror and just kind of like look at myself and admire myself.

然后这就会引向任何我想做的事情。

And then that leads to, you know, whatever I wanna get into.

有时候是看色情片。

Sometimes it's porn.

有时候我只是听一首我特别喜欢的歌单，但这真的是和自己共度的美好时光。

Sometimes it's just a playlist that I'm really feeling, but it's really great quality time with myself.

是的。

Yeah.

这听起来真的很棒。

That sounds really wonderful.

我也要试试。

Like, I'm gonna do that.

我喜欢这个，老兄。

I love that, dude.

而且我们

And we

会谈论像自性爱这样的话题，或者我们曾经讨论过

talk about, like, auto sexuality or we have talked about

它，比如当你

it, like, where you

只是自己稍微有点兴奋，或者

do just kinda, get turned on by yourself or

因为考特妮·卡戴珊是自恋性欲者。

because Kourtney Kardashian is an autosexual.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

但想象自己赤身裸体盯着自己，从来不会让我有什么感觉。

And the idea of, like, staring at myself naked is never, like, something that's really, like, tickled my pickle.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但穿着一件漂亮的浴袍，随着音乐跳舞，那种感觉确实会让我兴奋。

But the idea of wearing a beautiful robe and, like, sort of, like, dancing to music and doing that does.

我很喜欢这样。

I like that a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

我以前经常这么做，嗯。

Like I used to do that a lot Mhmm.

当我压力特别大的时候。

When I was, like, so stressed out.

我觉得我们在一起时我做得更多，我应该重新开始。

I feel like more when we were together, and I should get back into it.

我需要一件丝绸睡袍。

And I need a silk robe.

是的。

Yes.

你确实需要。

You do.

我其实找到了一个很棒的地方，你的睡袍在哪买的？

I actually found a great Where do you get yours?

嗯，我特别喜欢捡旧货和复古风格。

Well, I am a huge grifter and vintage lover.

所以我找到了一件在好心人商店只卖3美元的，我超爱，但我有一整套收藏。

So I found I found one for, like, $3 at Goodwill that I love, but I have a whole collection.

我特别讲究。

I'm super extra.

我觉得丝绸睡袍，怎么都不会嫌多。

I feel like with silk robes, it's like one would never be enough.

我需要不同风格的几件。

I need one for different moves.

比如，我现在有多巫术？

Like, how witchy am I feeling?

我是想感觉飘逸吗？

Am I feeling, like, ethereal?

我是想要一件完全复古女神风、毛茸茸的睡袍吗？

Do I want something just, like, fully, like, fur vintage goddess vibes?

没错。

Right.

你是哪种女神？

What type of goddess are you?

有邪恶的、善良的、混乱的、中立的，整个矩阵都涵盖了。

There's so there's evil, good, chaotic, neutral, that whole square.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以根据当下的感觉来决定。

Well, you get to decide, like, in the moment.

很多时候，我会选择空灵的仙子风格，因为那种感觉和我特别契合，尤其是当我打开小彩灯，点上蜡烛，把所有水晶都摆出来的时候。

A lot of times, I go for, like, ethereal fairy vibes because it just I feel so aligned with that, especially, like, I turn on the fairy lights, like, full, you know, candles burning, all the crystals are out.

天哪。

Oh my god.

光是听你谈论这些，我就感觉平静多了，你管这叫女神体验？

I feel calmer just, like, hearing you talk about this that what you called it a goddess experience?

对。

Yes.

女神修行。

Goddess practice.

女神修行。

Goddess practice.

太喜欢了。

Love it.

你现在穿的看起来像和服。

It looks like you're wearing a kimono right now.

我知道这是一档播客，

I know this is a podcast,

但确实是。

but Yeah.

我的意思是，她正在

I mean, it's She's

穿着一条裙子。

wearing a dress.

从技术上讲，确实是。

It technically is.

它会环绕身体。

It wraps around.

所以，你知道，很美。

So, you know Beautiful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

好吧。

Well, okay.

所以让我们来聊聊，因为最初当我开始做《别叫我漂亮》这个节目，谈论自慰之类的话题时，我并没有意识到，有那么多有阴唇的女性朋友根本不在自慰。

So let's talk about because originally, like, when I started with Don't Call Me Pretty and talking about, like, masturbation and stuff, I didn't realize how many of my friends with vulvas were not masturbating.

这包括那些有伴侣的朋友，还有单身的朋友，她们根本得不到高潮。

And this included friends, you know, in relationships who are single, just aren't having orgasms.

这让我有点难过。

And that kind of made me sad.

我真心觉得，因为这对我来说是如此重要的事，听起来对你来说也是如此。

I honestly, because it's such an essential thing for me and it sounds like for you too as well.

是的。

So yeah.

你确定他们当中没有人撒谎吗？

Are you sure none of them are lying?

我的意思是，这可不是什么刻板印象。

Like, you just you're I mean, because that isn't like a trope.

它就是事实。

It's like it.

比如在高中时，我知道每个人都在撒谎。

If in in high school, like, I know everyone was fucking lying.

但另一点是，你创造了一个安全的空间，他们显然知道你在自慰，那他们为什么还会觉得分享这件事很不舒服呢？

But I but the other thing is, like, you create a safe space where, like, they obviously know you're masturbating, so why would they feel uncomfortable sharing that with you?

但我认为很多人就是不愿意承认自己会这么做。

But I think a lot of people just don't wanna admit that they do it.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得就是这样。

I think it's that.

我觉得围绕这件事仍然存在大量的污名。

I think there's still a ton of stigma surrounding it.

而且，就在我们这次通话之前，我刚读了一篇《福布斯》的文章，我当时想，没想到《福布斯》也会谈性话题。

And then also, I mean, like, right before our this call right now, I was just talk reading a Forbes article, which I was like, I didn't know Forbes was talking about sex.

真棒。

Cool.

我们太喜欢看到这种事了。

We love to see it.

但他们的数据显示，有39%的女性表示她们自慰时不会达到高潮，我当时就想，你们自慰是为了什么？

But their statistics said thirty nine percent of women said they don't orgasm when they masturbate, which I was like, what are you

自慰是为了什么？

masturbating for?

我们是在跟谁讨论呢，

Who are we talking to,

拉尔斯？

Lars?

关于那项研究。

To that study.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得关于自慰习惯的研究太多了，而且大多数都不一致。

I I I feel like there's so many different studies about masturbation habits that and most of them don't.

它们都各有不同。

Like, they're all kinda different.

所以我只想深入了解一下那项研究。

So I would just wanna look into that study.

但如果是真的，那真的挺让人难过的。

But, like, if true, that's really sad.

完全同意。

Totally.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，我本来想说，你先说吧。

Well and I oh, go ahead.

我是想说，

Well, I was

我打算说，我们已经和很多女性聊过关于自慰以及她们与朋友之间关于这个话题的讨论。

gonna say we we've talked to a lot of different women about masturbation and the conversation surrounding it with their friends.

我认为，许多年轻女孩在刚开始探索自己的身体时，会感到因为媒体中对女性性行为的呈现不如男性性行为那样普遍，或者不像接受男性性行为那样被广泛接受。

And I think so many young girls, especially when we first start exploring with our own bodies, feel like because maybe it's not represented as equally in media as we see male sexuality or as much as we accept male sexuality in media.

所以我们从小就不敢谈论这个话题。

We don't feel comfortable talking about it from a young age.

想到我们把这种羞耻感和秘密感带到了成年，我感到非常难过。

It bums me out so much that we carry that shame and secrecy into adulthood.

即使我在这个领域工作，还做着性主题的播客，我依然不确定我的哪些朋友自慰。

Even working in this space and having a sex podcast, I still don't know for sure which of my friends masturbate.

我想我只是假设他们都这样，因为我自己就在做。

I guess I just assume all of them do because I'm doing it.

也许这种想法是错的。

And maybe that's wrong.

也许我该关心一下，直接问：你需要一个振动器吗？

Maybe I should check-in and be like, do you need a vibrator?

你可以告诉我你有的。

Like, you can tell me if you do.

有意思的是，我的很多朋友主动找我，说：我也想要一个振动器。

Well, what's cool is a lot of my friends have reached out to me being like, I am like, I I want a vibrator.

我已经准备好了。

I'm ready for it.

过去我们年轻的时候，我觉得他们想要却还是觉得太难开口了。

And in the past, when we were younger, I think it was just still too difficult for them to, like, want it.

然后我感觉自己像个推销员，就像个振动器推销员？

And then I felt kind of like a pusher, like, like, on the Vibrator pusher?

是的。

Yeah.

振动器。

A vibrator.

你就是个振动器。

You're a vibrator.

是的。

Yeah.

如果他们还没准备好，我又凭什么去施加压力，让他们达到高潮呢？

And it's like, if they're not ready yet, who am I to, like, peer pressure them into orgasms?

但我觉得，这感觉真的很棒。

But I'm like, it feels good.

求你了，用我的折扣吧，请

Like, please take my discount Please

拿我的折扣码吧。

take my discount code.

我快死了。

I'm dying.

是的。

Yeah.

我发现一些朋友，我不想点名，比如阿维，他们处于认真的恋爱关系中，却说：‘我从来没有过高潮，和伴侣在一起好几年了。’

I found that some friends, don't wanna name any names, Avi, but, like, who are in serious committed relationships are like, yeah, I'm not having orgasms and have been with their partner for years.

我在想，你们会和对方坦诚地聊这些事吗？

And I'm, do you guys have open conversations, like, about anything?

因为对我来说，当我约会某人时，这往往是第一个提到的话题。

Because for me, like, when I date someone, like, that's one of the first things that comes up.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

我们在播客里讨论过这个问题，但这是两件不同的事。

We talk about this on our podcast how well, two different things.

首先，我认为女性不知道如何优先考虑并为自己寻求愉悦。

So one, I think that women don't know how to prioritize and ask for their own pleasure.

是的。

Yeah.

部分原因是社会对这件事的污名化。

In part because of all of the cultural stigma against it.

比如，我们没有被教导过女性愉悦在生育中的重要性，而学校里教我们的性教育大多只围绕生育展开。

Like, we don't we're not taught the importance of female pleasure in relation to the creation of a child, which is how we are taught sex in schools by and large.

另一方面，我觉得很多女性认为不高潮是很正常的，或者只是相信自己无法高潮。

And the other thing is, like, I think so many women think it's just common to not orgasm or maybe just hold a belief that they can't.

但实际上，你只是无法通过插入式性行为达到高潮。

And it's like, actually, you just can't orgasm penetrative, like, penetratively.

但你完全可以做到。

But you could literally.

这一切都关乎探索，而这一点又回到了自慰。

And it's all about that exploration, which, again, just comes back to masturbation.

你需要知道自己喜欢什么。

You need to know what you like.

最好的方式就是自己摸索。

And the best way to find out is by doodling yourself.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我们说的是，如果你都不知道怎么让自己高潮，又怎么能指望别人让你高潮呢？

What we say is, like, how do you expect someone else to make you cum if you don't know how to make yourself cum?

但拉切尔的伴侣关系中，愉悦是被经常讨论的，有着开放的沟通和对话。

But Rachel is in a relationship where pleasure is is very much talked about and, like, open communication and dialogue.

而我只谈过一段恋爱，但那种关系模式是：我经常给他口交，而他从不为我口交。

And I I've only been in one relationship, but it the dynamic was I sucked his dick a lot, and he never went down on me.

我觉得为我口交真的很恶心。

And I felt like going down on me was just really disgusting.

然后我的朋友们试图向我解释，就像我们现在谈论的，你值得去感受快乐。

And then my friends were were trying to explain to me, feel like, what we're talking about now, that you deserve to be to feel pleasure.

我觉得那些不为伴侣口交的直男，这其实是某种奇怪的有毒男性气质的一部分，我不知道这种观念是怎么开始的，但让伴侣高潮简直太男人了，不管你如何定义这一点。

That, like, I think that men who don't heterosexual men who don't go down on their partners, it's, like, part of this whole weird toxic masculinity that I don't know how that, like, started because making your partner cum is fucking manly as hell or however you wanna define that.

但当你处于这样的关系中，又不了解更好的情况时，真的很难听进去别人的话。

But it's really hard to listen to people when you're in a relationship like that and you don't know better.

所以你就只是被困在其中。

So you just kinda stay stuck in it.

完全同意。

Totally.

而且我觉得，当你在进行随意性行为时，也就是另一个极端，很难说：嘿，我才刚认识你。

And I think there's also, like, you know, when you're having casual sex, like, the other end of the spectrum, it's hard to be like, oh, hey, I just met you.

直接说：让我高潮吧。

Like, make me cum.

而且，我也得从自己的思绪里抽身出来，才能真正活在当下，让你把这份礼物送给我，你知道的？

And also, let me get out of my head enough so I can be present and, like, allow you to gift me this, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢你这么说。

Oh, I love how you said that.

高潮是一种礼物？

A orgasms is a gift?

是的。

Yeah.

我只是突然想到这一点。

I just thought that.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

对。

Yeah.

而且，我觉得这根深蒂固。

And then also, like, I think it's so deeply rooted.

这甚至不仅仅关乎性快感。

It's not even just about sexual pleasure.

这关乎我们女性，你知道，承认我们值得拥有快乐和幸福，以及所有这些超越了父权社会强加给我们的东西。

It's about us as women, you know, owning the fact that we deserve joy and happiness and all of these things aside from, you know, what we've been pre prescribed by a patriarchal society.

我的意思是，我就是父权制。

Mean, I was patriarchy.

我总是把它和占据空间联系起来，我觉得这是一个很容易理解的说法。

I always think about it in relation to, like, just taking up space, which is, I think, a really easy phrase to wrap your head around.

女性往往被教导要收敛、少索取、多付出。

Women are kind of taught to be smaller, to ask for less, and to give people more.

我们总是牺牲自己的一部分，来让别人更舒服。

We're giving up parts of ourself always to make other people more comfortable.

所以在性行为中，当你被要求完全放松，让别人为你做些什么，甚至更进一步地说出‘我想要你给我这个只属于我的东西’时。

And so especially in sex, when you're being asked to fully relax and let someone do something for you or even more to to say, I want this thing from you that is solely for me.

这并不会让其他人受益。

It doesn't benefit anybody else.

我认为，从文化和社会层面来说，女性要对此感到自在真的很难。

I think that is really difficult for women culturally and societally to feel comfortable with.

我们接触过很多和我们同龄的人，他们都说，不是我不喜欢被口交，也不是我不喜欢性爱。

Like, we've talked to so many people our age who are like, it's not that I don't like going getting eaten out or it's not that I don't like sex.

而是当我意识到有人把所有这些愉悦都给予我时，我会感到焦虑或不自在。

It's that I feel anxious or uncomfortable knowing that someone's giving all of this pleasure to me.

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道该如何开始打破这种心态，但至少谈论它会有帮助。

I don't know how you start to break that down, but, like, talking about it helps.

我们可能需要找一位治疗师来解决这个问题。

We might need to find a therapist for that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们如何改变社会？

How do we fix society?

问号。

Question mark.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，愉悦并不是自私的。

Well, pleasure isn't selfish.

对吧？

Right?

要摆脱这种观念真的很难。

And that's so so hard to unlearn.

我的意思是，我在很多方面都发现自己这样。

I mean, I find myself, like, in so many ways.

这again不仅仅是关于性。

It's, again, not just sex.

就像想要成功、想要富有、想要过某种特定的生活方式一样。

It's like wanting to be, you know, successful, wanting to be wealthy, wanting to, like, live a certain lifestyle.

我们不该追求这些。

We shouldn't want that.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我们被灌输的理念。

Like, that's what we're taught.

但当我们真的去做了，就会有人说：‘哦，她是个婊子，因为她是个工作狂之类的。’

And then when we do go out and do it, it's like, oh, well, she's a bitch because, you know, she's a workaholic or whatever.

我们总是无法符合那种标准。

Like, we're always not going to fit that mold that Yeah.

人们希望我们符合这些标准。

People want us to be fitting.

而我说的‘人们’，通常指的是异性恋白人男性。

And by people, I mean, usually, like, hetero white men.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得指责他们没什么问题。

I feel okay pointing my finger at them.

好的。

Okay.

我们并不是在搞厌男，也不是那样，但这些确实是事实。

Not and, you know, we're not we're not doing, like, man hating or anything like that, but just it's kinda facts here.

我有三个兄弟。

I have three brothers.

我不是性别歧视者。

I'm not sexist.

我也是一个父亲。

And I'm a father.

我知道至少三个男人。

I know at least three men.

明白吗？

Okay?

是的。

Yeah.

我有个父亲。

I have a dad.

我的总统是个男人。

My president is a man.

天哪。

Oh, man.

所以好吧。

So okay.

我们来谈谈假装高潮吧。

Let's talk about faking orgasms.

因为我认为可以安全地说，我们大多数人都曾经假装过高潮。

Because I think it's safe to say that most of us have faked orgasm.

我不敢替所有听众，甚至不敢替在场的我们所有人发言，但我认为我们确实都曾假装高潮，只是为了摆脱性行为，或者为了照顾对方的自尊心。

I don't wanna speak for everyone listening or even, you know, those of us here, but I think we've we've faked an orgasm to get out of sex, to help someone's ego.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，你们觉得在什么情况下假装高潮是可以接受的？或者你们什么时候假装过，事后又后悔了？

So when do you all think it's okay to fake an orgasm or when have you and you regretted it?

或者给我一些具体的例子吧。

Or give me some give me some scenarios here.

其实我们之前在某一集中刚讨论过假装高潮的事，只是不记得是哪一集了。

Well, we actually just talked about faking orgasms on one of our episodes, don't know which.

所以我很高兴你提出了这个问题。

So I love that you're asking that.

我们刚刚从这项研究中学到了一些新东西。

And we just learned something new about this study.

蕾切尔，你提出了关于在什么情况下可以假装高潮的问题。

Well, Rachel, you brought it to the table about when it could be okay to fake an orgasm.

是的，性专家们普遍认为有几种情况是可以接受假装高潮的。

Yeah, there were basically a couple instances that sexperts agreed were acceptable to be faking orgasms.

对于女性来说，有时仅仅是表现出愉悦、模仿愉悦的过程，就能帮助她们真正感受到愉悦。

There are times where for women specifically, just doing that pleasure, acting out that pleasure can help to increase their own.

因此，出于这个原因假装高潮是可以接受的。

So doing it for that reason is Okay.

如果你是为了让伴侣感觉良好、提升他们的自信，而不是为了逃避性行为，只是想表达‘这很美好，我希望你能享受’，而且这与你是否达到高潮无关，那也是可以接受的。

Doing it for the reason of wanting to make your partner feel good about themselves without trying and not doing it to get out of the situation, but just to be like, this is nice and I want you to enjoy it and, like, this isn't about you.

我只是不会达到高潮。

I'm just not gonna get there.

在这种情况下假装高潮是可以的。

It would be okay to do that.

而且我认为，在长期关系中，这大概没什么问题。

And I think especially in a long term relationship, it's probably fine.

我假装高潮的原因是，直到我第一次从伴侣那里获得真正的高潮之前，我总是这么做。

The thing about me for faking orgasms is I used to do this always until I had my first orgasm from a partner.

然后我就想，再也不干了。

And I was like, never again

我会

will I

因为真正的高潮好太多了。

do this because I like it so much better.

如果我能得到真实的，为什么还要满足于假的呢？

So if I could get the real one, why would I settle for a fake one?

但在高中时，我经常这么做，因为那感觉太痛苦、糟糕或尴尬了。

But in high school, I did it all the time because it was just, like, painful or bad or awkward.

而且我当时太年轻，太不自信，不敢为自己发声。

And I was so young and so insecure about speaking up for myself.

而且我还害怕伤害那个17岁的男孩，他真的觉得自己在做一件特别的事。

And also scared of hurting this guy who was 17, like, really thought he was doing something special.

我不知道该怎么告诉他，那真的很糟糕，纯粹就是疼。

And I didn't know how to tell him that it was bad, like, genuinely just painful.

天哪。

Oh, man.

这真的很艰难，因为我觉得，尤其是当你和男人发生关系时，可能是第一次或前几次。

That is tough because I feel like especially when you're having sex with a man, like, maybe for the first time or first couple times.

当然，现在作为成年人情况不同了，但你刚进入时，心里清楚，如果一开始就太坦诚，可能会太过分。

And obviously, it's different now, like, as adults, but you're coming in and, like, you know that if you're super honest right off the bat, that might be too much.

而且很多人其实并不想被指导。

And then a lot of them, like, don't really want coaching.

即使他们愿意接受指导，也会太过积极。

And then if they do take the coaching, they're, like, too eager.

这真的很难把握平衡。

Like, it's just it's a hard balance.

对吧？

Right?

这从来都不是一个良好的平衡。

It's never a good balance.

我发现，对于那种我归类为太急切的男生，对我来说，就会产生很大的高潮压力，这立刻让我失去兴趣。

Well, I find that the with the type of guy who I do categorize as, like, too eager, I feel for me, it's like then there's so much pressure to orgasm, which immediately loses any shot at me

是的。

Yeah.

比如高潮。

Like, climax.

因为他就是会说：‘宝贝，我想让你高潮。’

Because, like, he's just like, I want you to come, baby.

而我就会想：‘拜托，我也想啊。’

And I'm like, bitch, me too.

别跟我一起哭了。

Like, stop crying with me.

我正在努力集中注意力。

I'm trying to focus here.

你是这样回应的吗？

Is that how you respond?

你就会说，拜托了。

You're like, bitch, please.

拜托，闭嘴吧。

Bitch, please shut up.

我不知道更有趣的回答是

I don't know if the funnier answer is

说 yes 还是 no，但是

to say yes or no, but

你永远也不会知道了。

guess you'll never find out.

有些事情得保持私密。

Gotta keep some things private.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这是我生活中唯一的事。

That's the only thing in my life.

太喜欢了。

Love it.

好吧。

Okay.

所以我们一开始聊了很多关于色情的内容。

So we talked a lot about porn at the top of the episode.

我们去哪里找有道德的色情内容？

Where are we finding ethical porn?

从三开始数？

On the count of three?

一、二、三。

One, two, three.

巴莱萨，婊子。

Balessa, bitch.

不。

No.

是的。

Yeah.

我们不仅仅是在推广，我们真的对巴莱萨着迷，而我们能为他们工作真是太幸运了。

We're not just trying to plug, like, we are obsessed with Balessa, and it's just very lucky for us that we get to work for them.

但Bolesa最初是一个色情内容的聚合平台，有点像Pornhub。

But Bolesa Bolesa started out as an an aggregate for porn, kind of like like Pornhub.

你可以从各个地方找到内容。

You can just find stuff from all different places.

然后他们创建了自己的制作公司——梅丽莎工作室。

And then they created their own production house, Melissa House.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

他们拍摄的是真实色情明星之间的性行为，就像‘我想和那个色情明星上床’那样。

And they have real sex between real porn stars who are like, I wanna fuck that porn star.

所以这一切都像是高度制作的、近乎家庭录像风格的作品。

So it's all just, like, highly produced, like, home videos almost.

是的。

Yeah.

非常真实。

It's very real.

对。

Yeah.

他们现在的东西有点像色情界的奈飞。

And what they have now is kind of like the Netflix of porn.

这很棒，因为如果你想判断你观看的色情内容是否合乎道德，一个简单直接的标准就是：你是否为此付费？

And it's great because one of the ways you can tell if you're getting ethical porn, if you want a hard and fast rule, is are you paying for it?

因为很多时候，问题在于色情产业的商店如何被对待、如何获得报酬，以及这些拍摄现场是什么样子。

Because a lot of the times, a lot of the issue is how porn stores are treated, how they're compensated, what these sets look like.

而Blessa Plus的优点在于它是按你能力付费的。

And what's nice about Blessa Plus is it's a pay what you can.

所以这是一种灵活的付费机制。

So it's a sliding scale.

我认为这有助于提高可及性。

And I think that helps with accessibility.

如果你是那种想开始支持伦理色情内容、但不知道从哪里开始的人，这是一个很好的选择，因为它适合各种预算。

So if you're someone who's like, I want to start paying for ethical porn, I don't really know where to go, this is a great option because it caters to every budget size.

但，是的，我认为如果你为色情内容付费，这就是判断其是否伦理的一个很好的标准。

But, yeah, I think if you're paying for your porn, that's a great way to start to tell if it's ethical.

另一种方法是去特定的色情商店页面，看看它们引导你去哪里，因为它们会把你引向正确的平台。

And the other way is to go to specific porn stores pages and see where they're sending you to because they're going to send you to the right places.

比如，去他们的OnlyFans页面，我认为虽然没有那么多，但确实有少数几个伦理色情网站，而且我认为它们各自都提供略有不同的内容。

Like, go to their OnlyFans and then I think there there are so many different not so many, but there's a handful of ethical porn sites, and I would say they all offer something slightly different.

所以你可以全额支付所有内容，这并不是说，嗯，它们就像流媒体网站一样。

So you can fully pay for all of them and you it's not like I mean, yeah, they're like streaming sites.

这就像是亚马逊、Hulu、HBO Max、Netflix。

It's like you got the Amazon, the Hulu, the lessors, Netflix.

是的。

Yeah.

当你在那里找到你喜欢的演员，就像蕾切尔说的，去搜索他们，清楚你的钱花到了哪里。

And what you can do is when you find someone there, a performer that you like watching their specific video, just like Rachel said, like, look for them and just know where your money's going.

否则，这就像是在盗版电影。

Otherwise, it's kind of like you're pirating a movie.

很多人确实这么干，但如果你不想当个混蛋，就为你的色情内容付费吧。

And I a lot of people do do that, but if you don't wanna be a dick, pay for your porn.

哇。

Wow.

这真是本集的金句。

That was the quote of the episode.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我非常喜欢Balessa。

I mean, I love Balessa.

我是色情内容的忠实粉丝。

I'm a huge fan of the porn.

我只是觉得，嗯，确实是这样。

I just think, like, it's yeah.

这太棒了。

It's awesome.

我其实几年前曾和他们合作过。

I actually worked with them I think it was a couple years ago.

在疫情期间，他们送了我一个振动器，我非常喜欢。

And then during the pandemic, they sent me a vibrator, which I love.

太棒了。

It's amazing.

哪一个？

Which one?

哪一个？

Which one?

我觉得是Dia或者Dia。

I think it's the Dia or Dia.

我不确定该怎么说。

I'm not sure how to say it.

哦，像是黑色的，内部的那种？

Oh, it's like a black, like, internal?

是的。

Yes.

它是黑色或紫色的。

It's black or purple.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

它是紫色的。

It's purple.

太好了。

So good.

紫色的讨好型人格。

Purple a purple people pleaser.

我们要不要叫它‘是的’？

Should we call it Yeah.

我

I

喜欢这个。

like that.

不，我

No, I

他们喜欢他们的玩具。

love their toys.

它们做得真好。

They're so well made.

完全正确。

Totally.

而且容易清洁。

And easy to clean.

而且价格实惠。

And affordable.

这显然就是

Which, obviously, is

对我来说。

for for me.

说实话，我需要一种容易清洁的东西，因为我太懒了。

Like, I need something that can clean easily because I'm so lazy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

哦，我也是。

Oh, same.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我的意思是，我们应该强调一下，定期清洁玩具很重要，因为我记得听过一个播客，里面提到过关于性癖和BDSM的内容。

And, I mean, that's something we should add that it's important, like, that you are cleaning your toys regularly because I don't know what a podcast I listened to, but it was something about, like, kink and BDSM.

他们说，如果你不经常清洁玩具，可能会感染各种奇怪的疾病。

And they were saying, like, all the you know, talking about all of these weird things you can contract if you aren't cleaning toys regularly.

所以。

So

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种很容易得

It's easy way to get an

酵母菌感染，这种谁都不想要。

yeast infection, which, like, nobody wants.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我以前经常得，因为我是个脏兮兮的姑娘，但我其实挺爱干净的。

I used to get them all the time because I'm a dirty, dirty girl, and I'm clean.

很好。

Very nice.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我再提几个其他网站。

So a couple other sites I was just gonna mention.

我曾浏览过kink.com，它更专注于BDSM。

I have explored kink.com, and that is more focused, like, on BDSM.

有些内容对我来说有点过头了，但如果你喜欢这种风格，kink.com 就挺合适的。

Some of it's a little much for me, but, like, if that's your kink, kink.com.

这可不是广告，你知道的。

This is not a plug, you know.

我还想问问你，你有没有听过 Dipsy？

And then I don't I wanted to ask you too if you've ever listened to Dipsy.

它有点像 Audible 那种形式。

It's like an Audible kind of version.

我听说评价不错。

I've heard good things.

是的。

Yeah.

我

I

我听说它特别棒。

I've heard amazing things.

我以前和他们合作过。

I I have partnered with them before.

我觉得对于喜欢音频情色内容的人来说，这真的很棒。

I think it's really amazing for people who like audio erotica.

我个人并不喜欢。

I don't personally like it.

我需要通过视觉来获得刺激。

I'm I need to be stimulated visually.

但我仍然和他们合作，因为我知道我的很多粉丝都喜欢，而且我觉得这些故事很刺激。

But I still work with them because I know so many of my followers do like it, and I thought the stories were, like, exciting.

所以我觉得这不算虚假宣传，这正是我想说的。

So I don't feel like it was false advertising is what I'm trying

我想说的是。

to say here.

你就像是，我需要在床上，对着笔记本电脑屏幕看完整的视觉内容。

You're like, I need the full visual on my laptop screen in bed with me.

我的台式机也在那儿。

I got my desktop in there as well.

我刚刚听了你谈论那个话题的那集。

I was just listening to that episode where you were talking about it.

我当时都快死了。

I was fucking dead.

瑞秋笑话我跟电脑一起睡。

Rachel roasted me for sleeping with my computer.

我当时就说，是的。

I was like, yeah.

就是啊，阿里尔问我为什么不睡别的地方？

It just is Well, Arielle's like, why don't I sleep on?

我说，那可能就是原因。

I'm like, well, that might be why.

这可能是个暗示。

That might be a hint.

你可能会说，我不是专业人士，但也许这就是原因。

You're like, I'm not a professional, but just, like, maybe that's why.

也许吧。

Maybe.

也许吧。

Maybe.

是的。

Yeah.

最后，我想特别感谢埃里卡·卢斯特，因为我非常喜欢她的作品。

So lastly, I do wanna give a shout out to Erica Lust because I love her work.

她的订阅价格有点贵，但制作质量真的很高，而且完全是通过女性视角来呈现的，字面意义上的。

Her subscription, I will say, is kind of expensive, but it is, like, really high production quality and it's kind of through a or it is through a female lens, quite literally.

所以我喜欢她处理情色作品的方式。

So I like how she does erotica.

有些故事更像是纯粹的性感影片。

Some of the stories are more just, like, sexy films.

有些时候，他们真的在做爱，这完全看情况。

Some of them, they are fucking, like, it it just depends.

但前几天我看到一条推文，说真正爱你的朋友，就给他们买个成人订阅。

But I actually saw a tweet the other day where it was, like, show a friend you really love them by, like, buying them a porn subscription.

我当时就想，哇。

And I was like, wow.

好吧。

Okay.

我们现在就到这个地步了。

That's where we're at.

这是个不错的节日礼物。

That's a good holiday gift.

确实是。

That is

是个好礼物。

a good gift.