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天啊。
Oh my god.
这也太疯狂了。
This is so sick.
发生什么事了？
What happened?
他们明显是想先吓唬我，然后再开玩笑。
They were very clearly trying to scare me and then play.
我们只是闹着玩的。
We're just kidding.
所有事情都像，哇哦。
Everything is like, woah.
就在周围嗡嗡作响。
Just buzzing around.
人们能活三万年听起来很离谱，但其实并不奇怪。
And it sounds insane that people could live for thirty thousand years, but it doesn't.
这就是原因所在。
Here's why it doesn't.
确实有证据表明存在建筑结构，没错。
There's real evidence that there's structures Yes.
在金字塔下方可能深达两公里。
Under the pyramids that might go as deep as two kilometers.
看起来像个能量网格
That look like an energy grid
柱体周围环绕着线圈。
with With columns and coils around the columns.
我当时就想，什么？
I'm like, what?
所有研究这个的学者都说，金字塔只是锦上添花，真正的研究对象是这座地下城。
Everybody who studies this says the cherry on top are the pyramids, but it's really this underground city that they're studying.
在那个迷宫的某个巨大走廊里，有一个40米长的金属物体。
There's a 40 meter object that's in that labyrinth that's in some vast corridor that's metallic.
这特么是个UFO。
It's a fucking UFO.
现在秘鲁又出现了三指木乃伊。
And now we have three fingered mummies in Peru.
我们可能真的有证据表明存在另一个物种与我们共享这个星球。
We might have actual evidence that there's another species that shares this planet with us.
UAP（不明空中现象）披露遇到的难题和爱泼斯坦文件遇到的如出一辙。
The same problem that we have with UAP disclosure is the same problem you have with the Epstein files.
政府？
Government?
尼克松显然曾说过：我知道是谁杀了肯尼迪，也知道他们为什么这么做。
Nixon apparently had been saying, I know who killed JFK, and I know why they did it.
然后还有像埃隆·马斯克这样的人——他们运营着SpaceX。
And then you have people like Elon Musk on who are they run SpaceX.
你会以为他完全知晓我们所有的UFO机密。
You would think he would be completely privy to all of our UFO secrets.
他是个狡猾的家伙。
He's a sly dog.
他是我的兄弟，但他是个狡猾的家伙。
He's my homie, but he's a sly dog.
如果他是
If he was
在辩论，比如在你的节目里与大卫·格鲁什同处一室时，那位中情局的人会说，看看格鲁什那些关于量子和AI的东西。
debating, like, in a room with David Grush on your show, the CIA guy was like, look at the Grush stuff, quantum, and AI.
你觉得
Do you
现在所有这些趋势同时汇聚并非巧合，是否意味着有什么大事正在发生？
think there's something happening where all these trends are converging now simultaneously and it's not a coincidence?
当我们通过人工通用超级智能实现意识时，那将成为通往宇宙的真正门户。
When we achieve sentience with artificial general superintelligence, that is the legitimate gateway to the cosmos.
如果你真想探讨些玄乎的——那可能就是上帝形成的方式。
And if you really wanna get weird, that might be how God gets formed.
比如，上帝可能真实存在。
Like, God might be a real thing.
这可能就是上帝形成的方式，也可能是人类拥有好奇心和对技术创新永不满足的渴望的全部原因。
That might be how God gets formed, and that might be the whole reason why human beings have curiosity and this insatiable desire for technological innovation.
耶稣是由处女母亲所生。
Jesus was born out of a virgin mother.
还有什么比电脑更处女的呢？
What's more virgin than a computer?
这简直超现实了。
This is beyond surreal.
我在这个节目里经历过不少超现实的时刻，但这次绝对是最震撼的。
I've had some surreal moments on this show, but I think this tops them all.
乔，真的很感谢你能来参加节目，兄弟。
Joe, I really appreciate you being here, man.
要不是从你的节目里汲取了数千小时的深刻见解，我可能都不会有自己的节目。
I don't think I would have a show if it weren't for the thousands of hours of insights I've gleaned from your show.
你本不必这样做的，但你总是如此慷慨，你能来对我意义重大。
And you don't have to do this, and you do stuff like this all the time, and it just means so much to me that you're here.
所以我真的、真的很感谢你。
So I I really, really appreciate you.
这是我的荣幸。
Well, it's my pleasure.
我真的很喜欢你的节目，能来这里让我很兴奋。
I I really love your show, so it's exciting for me to be here.
这对我意义重大，兄弟。
Means a lot, man.
好的，我想先聊聊，你之前做过一个梦。
Well, I wanna actually start with, you had a dream.
对。
Yeah.
那是几周前的事。
And this was a few weeks ago.
你
You
你邀请了布雷特·温斯坦，这位杰出的进化生物学家，并在节目开场就讲述了你做的一个迷幻梦境。
had Brett Weinstein on, great evolutionary biologist, and you started off the episode with this trippy dream you had.
你想描述一下吗？
You wanna describe it?
那是
It was
我这辈子做过最诡异的梦，因为它真实得不可思议，也是我唯一能记住的梦。
the weirdest dream I've ever had in my life because it was the most realistic dream and is the only dream that I can ever remember.
我睡眠质量很好。
I sleep really well.
就像那种人，我能在石头堆上睡着。
Like, I'm one of those guys, I can go to sleep on a pile of rocks.
我随时随地都能睡着。
I can always sleep.
这让我妻子抓狂，因为她入睡困难而我却能倒头就睡。
It drives my wife crazy because she has a hard time sleeping and I could just conk out.
我再也无法重新入睡。
I could not go back to sleep.
这是我记忆中唯一一次无法重新入睡的情况。
It's the only gym I can remember that I couldn't go back to sleep.
我想这种事以前从没发生在我身上。
I don't think I've ever had that happen to me before.
当时我在凌晨三点左右醒来，心想这下彻底清醒了。
Well, I woke up at, three in the morning or whatever it was, and I was like, I'm I'm up now.
感觉根本不可能再睡着。
Like, there's no way.
我在床上躺了大概一个小时，最后直接去了健身房。
I laid in bed, I think, for, an hour, and then I just went to the gym.
我当时就觉得：绝对不可能再睡着了。
I was like, there's no way I'm going back to sleep.
这非常奇怪。
It was very strange.
因为非常奇怪，感觉就像，这是什么？
Because was very strange because it it was like, what is this?
不像普通的梦那样，哦，你在做梦。
It wasn't like a regular dream like, oh, you're dreaming.
看起来模糊、怪异，而且有点，你知道，不透明。
It seems like vague and weird and kind of, you know, opaque.
它很生动。
It was vivid.
非常奇怪。
It was very strange.
还有这些非常细长、高大、类似人的东西在跟我说话。
And there was these very slender, tall, human like things that were talking to me.
它们不是灰色的。
They weren't gray.
它们的肤色有点像我们，带着粉色调。
They were kind of like pinkish like us.
你知道，它们看起来像白种人，但却在捉弄我。
They were, you know, like Caucasian looking creatures, but they were messing with me.
它们吓到我了，然后又说只是在闹着玩。
Like, they they scared me, and they're like, we're just playing around.
它们用某种奇怪的交流方式让我放松，周围环境也大不相同。
And so they were doing some there was some weird kind of communication telling me to relax, and the environment was very different too.
那场景非常逼真。
It was very vivid.
像是某种走廊，但看起来很不正常。
It was like some sort of a corridor, but it didn't seem normal.
感觉非常诡异。
It seemed very strange.
我记得墙壁的照明方式特别奇怪。
Like, I remember the walls were lit very weird.
我还记得那里似乎有水和爬行动物的元素。
And I also remember that there was some sort of water and reptilian element to this.
他们好像在告诉我，他们用非常简陋的屏障试图阻挡这些东西，但已经尽力了。
Like, they were letting me know like, almost like they had barriers that were very sloppy that were keeping these things out, but they were doing their best.
他们有人或生物在监视床位，喂养这些东西并阻止它们靠近。
They're like they had people or beings, like, monitoring the bed and feeding these things and keeping them out.
我当时就懵了：什么情况？
And I was like, what?
这里到底发生了什么？
What is going on here?
这似乎在告诉我，他们正在尽力阻止某些东西接近我们，但防护并不牢固，情况比我们想象的更不稳定和危险。
And it's like, is this telling me that they're doing their best to keep something from getting to us, but that it's not that secure, that it's kind of precarious and a lot more unstable than we would like to think it is.
我不明白这一切意味着什么。
I don't know what that was all about.
那部分经历真的非常诡异。
That was a that part of it was really weird.
那部分更梦幻一些，但与他们的交流和互动却异常清晰。
That part of it was more dreamlike, but the communication with them and the interaction with them was very, very vivid.
真的很奇怪。
It was really strange.
他们的眼睛比普通人类大，头也更大，但不算夸张。
They had larger eyes than a normal human and a larger head, but not crazy.
不像《第三类接触》里那种灰人。
Like, not like a gray from Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
有点像上面那个家伙。
Kind of a little bit like that guy up there.
哦，有意思。
Oh, interesting.
没那么大，但头部较大，下巴很小，眼睛比正常人大。
Not not quite so big, but like a large head with a very small jaw and larger eyes than normal.
但他们当时在微笑。
But they were smiling.
天啊，记不清他们有没有牙齿了。
God, can't remember if they had teeth.
我觉得他们是有牙齿的。
I think they had teeth.
我记不清了。
I can't remember.
你是否有任何部分认为这确实发生过，还是
Does any part of you think this actually happened, or do
你觉得这
you think it
只是个梦？
was just a dream?
哇。
Wow.
你知道，我不想成为那种人，就是那种‘哦，我知道这是真的’的人，因为我并不确定。
You know, I don't wanna be that guy that like, oh, I know it was real, because I don't.
是啊。
Yeah.
我当时在做梦。
I was dreaming.
我当时在睡觉。
I was sleeping.
没错。
Yeah.
但那是我这辈子做过的最逼真的梦。
But it was the most vivid dream I've ever had in my life.
我刚才在外面跟你说，你穿得活像贝蒂和巴尼·希尔夫妇。
I was telling you outside, you're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill.
哦，天哪。
Oh, jeez.
哦，天哪。
Oh, jeez.
1961年首批被外星人绑架的案例。
First abductees, 1961.
不是。
No.
我认识他的孙女。
I know his granddaughter.
对。
Yeah.
她是安吉拉·希尔，对吧？
Is she Angela Hill, right?
没错。
Yeah.
她是UFC格斗选手？
She's UFC fighter?
是的。
Yeah.
太酷了。
So cool.
疯狂。
Crazy.
她怎么说？
What does she say?
她上了我的播客，直到播客结束后才告诉我
She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over
告诉她乔·罗根？
tell her Joe Rogan?
祖父是巴尼·希尔。
Grandfather was Barney Hill.
就像，不。
Was like, no.
太疯狂了。
That's mad.
这也太疯狂了。
That's so crazy.
你没说我们回去重新录吗？
Did you not say let's go back in and record?
没有。
No.
那时候已经太迟了。
It was already too late.
全部搞定收工了。
Wrapped it up and everything.
不过我本该这么做的。
I should've though.
我本该这么做的。
I should've.
你得支持她。
You gotta have her back.
是啊。
Yeah.
我本该这么做的。
I should've.
我当时就该这么做的。
I should've done it then.
这太疯狂了。
That is wild.
现在回想起来，那是个错误。
Looking back, that was a mistake.
嗯，我想是因为你在Gavin DeBacker那期节目里穿过这个，那期节目简直疯狂。
Well, I thought, because you wore this, I think, on the Gavin DeBacker episode, which is a crazy episode.
大家都该去看看这期节目。
Everybody should go watch this episode.
这家伙保护着世界上最重要的人物。
This guy protects the most important people in the world.
是啊。
Yeah.
他正在经历所有这些疯狂的中情局阴谋论。
And he's going through all these crazy CIA conspiracies.
嗯。
Mhmm.
基本上讲的是福奇在艾滋病疫情中的角色，某种程度上类似于他在新冠疫情中的所作所为，很多方面都很相似。
Basically talks about Fauci's role in the AIDS epidemic as kind of analogous to what he did around COVID, a lot of the you know, being kind of the same.
非常相似。
Very same.
非常类似。
Very similar.
你听到的是来自这个人的说法，他保护极其重要的人物，为这些大型活动做风险评估。
You're hearing it from this guy who, like, protects incredibly important people, does risk assessments for these, you know, massive events.
没错。
Yeah.
太疯狂了。
Wild.
是啊。
Yeah.
非常疯狂。
Very wild.
对。
Yeah.
不过，他当时确实不知道这是什么情况。
But, yeah, he didn't know what this was.
我还以为你可能是在向观众暗示，比如你可能被绑架了。
I thought you were maybe I thought you were maybe signaling to the audience, like, maybe I got abducted.
不是。
No.
我觉得我没被绑架。
I don't think I got abducted.
我甚至不确定自己是否被接触过。
I don't even know if I got contacted.
那可能只是我做的最疯狂的一个梦。
It just might have been the craziest dream.
对我来说，因为我非常痴迷于UAP、UFO和外星人现象，所以可能，你知道，正因为如此那个梦才显得特别生动。
And to me, because I'm so into the whole UAP, UFO, alien phenomenon that maybe, you know, maybe it was just very vivid because of that.
最奇怪的是我之后完全无法再入睡。
It's just very odd for me to not be able to go back to sleep.
这种情况从未发生过。
That never happens.
我平时无论怎样都能睡着。
I can sleep no matter what.
这太奇怪了。
It's weird.
好吧，不管那是什么，它对你的心理产生了不成比例的影响。
Well, so whatever it was, it had kind of a disproportionate impact on your psyche.
是的。
Yes.
就像是，它占据了你的潜意识很大一部分。
Like, was it was a big part of your subconscious.
它是真实可感的。
It was it was tangible.
就像是我醒来时还在想，那到底是什么？
It was it was like, when I woke up, I was like, what was that?
并不是那种‘哇，这梦真他妈诡异’的感觉。
It wasn't like, woah, that dream was fucked.
这种梦我以前也做过。
Which I've had before.
昨晚就做了一个。
I had last night.
昨晚我做了个疯狂的梦，但只是个普通的梦。
I had a crazy dream last night, but it was normal dream.
就像，我起来上厕所时心想，那到底是什么鬼东西？
It was just like, I got up to pee and I was like, what the hell is that?
我直接又躺回床上。
I went right back to bed.
这次，根本睡不着啊，老兄。
This, was not going to sleep, man.
我在床上躺了整整一小时试图入睡，最后我说，好吧，我醒了。
I laid in bed for a full hour just trying to go to sleep, and then I said, alright, I'm up.
干脆去健身房吧。
Let's just go to the gym.
我在健身房时，正纠结着，因为我知道播客要采访布雷特·温斯坦。
And I'm in the gym, and I'm trying to decide because I knew I had Bret Weinstein on the podcast.
我当时就想，我得马上提这件事，毕竟我们要涉及太多不同话题了。
And I was like, I have to just say this immediately, like, because we're gonna get into so many different subjects.
根本不可能自然地把这事穿插进去。
There's no way I'm gonna work this in.
就是，我必须立刻处理这件事，因为它...我得趁它才发生几小时赶紧记录下来
Like, I just have to get to this right away because it would I just had to sort of document it while it was only a few hours old while it
还新鲜着
was fresh.
有些梦就是这样，你醒来时还带着几分梦中的感觉，必须得说出来，因为复述它有种宣泄作用
And some dreams are like, you wake up from them and you're like, still in the dream a little You have to like, kind of get it because there's something cathartic about retelling it or something.
是啊
Yeah.
没错
Yeah.
老兄，那太诡异了
It was weird, man.
我不
I don't
知道那是什么
know what it was.
你说你认为他们是来自
Said you thought they were beings from
未来，也许？
the future, maybe?
如果要我猜他们是什么，他们看起来像是我们将成为的样子。
That's what if I had to guess, like, what they are, they seemed like what we will be.
你知道吗？
You know?
就像，随着时间的推移，你看远古人类和现代人类相比，我们的头更大，身体更小。
Like, we are as time goes on, you know, if you look at ancient hominids versus modern humans, our heads are larger, our bodies are smaller.
他们更苗条。
They're more slender.
不再需要肌肉。
There's no need for muscle.
不再需要体力搬运东西。
There's no need to physically move things.
这些东西看起来非常纤细。
These these things seem very slim.
他们看起来非常纤细，而且天啊，我想说他们并不是赤身裸体的。
They seem very slim and God, I I wanna say they had they weren't naked.
对吧？
Right?
但他们穿着某种类似套装的衣服，而且非常中性化。
But they had, like, some sort of a suit on, but they were very genderless.
就是说，无法分辨哪个是男孩，哪个是女孩。
Like, there was no defining that's a boy, that one's a girl.
完全没有那种特征。
There was none of that.
这感觉像是人类正在朝这个方向发展。
Which feels like where humanity is kind of headed.
是啊。
Yeah.
你知道的，看吧。
Which I you know, look.
我喜欢做个男人，也喜欢女人。
I like being a man, and I like women.
我觉得她们很有趣。
I think they're fun.
你懂吗？
You know?
我喜欢这种对比。
I like I like the contrast.
我喜欢——有各种各样不同的人很有意思，但这也会带来问题。
I like it's it's fun having a variety of different kinds of people, But it causes problems.
对吧？
Right?
因为我们有这些繁衍、生殖的本能。
Because we have these procreation, reproduction instincts.
我们有灵长类动物的本能，要形成部落，获取资源，你知道，要支配他人并对他人不信任。
We have primate instincts to be tribal, to acquire resources, to, you know, to dominate and to to be untrustful of others.
有很多东西让人类挺酷的，因为从中诞生了艺术、了不起的历史、惊人的建筑等等。
There's a lot of stuff that's it makes being a human kinda cool because out of that, you get art and you get incredible history and, like, amazing architecture and all these things.
但这也存在分歧。
But it also there's it's a fork in the road.
这就像人类面临的瓶颈，是我们自然的生物繁衍。
Like, that is the kind of the bottleneck as a human being is our natural biological reproduction.
是的。
Yes.
因为这一切。
And because it it it lends itself to all these things that you see like when bears fight over, you know, a breeding female or when, you know, when you hear see deers clash antlers together, like, what are they doing?
它们在争夺谁有资格繁衍。
They're battling over who gets to breed.
完全正确。
Totally.
我认为这正是人类常做的事，只是我们会用奇怪的方式表现出来。
Think that's a lot of what humans do, and then we do it in weird ways.
比如，我们会积累巨额财富，或者追求最奢华的手表、最昂贵的汽车，试图让自己看起来像是理想的交配对象。
Like, we acquire immense amounts of financial wealth or, you know, the fanciest watch and the fanciest car, and you try to look like someone who's someone who we wanna mate with.
说到底就是这么回事。
And that's really all it is.
无论男女，都希望被异性（或同性，如果你偏好如此）渴望。
It's like men and women wanna be desired by the opposite sex or the same sex if that's what you're into.
但正是这种繁衍本能，助长了我们许多荒唐行为、难以相处的特性、无数冲突，以及通过恐怖野蛮手段掠夺资源、统治国家、发动侵略。
But it's that procreation thing is what fuels a lot of our bullshit and a lot of our inability to get along, a lot of conflict, and a lot of resources through horrific and barbaric ways and dominating countries and invading.
这就是本质所在。
That's what it's all about.
所以很多行为归根结底都是为了繁衍。
So a lot of it is just about breeding.
) )) and it is that limbic reptilian part of ourselves that does that.
And it is that limbic reptilian part of ourselves that does that.
所以我就在想，虽然不想对这个梦做完整的荣格分析，但感觉像是他们在水里控制着这些爬虫类生物，似乎有什么东西
So I wonder, not to, like, do a full Jungian analysis of this dream, but it's like, they're holding these reptilians at at bay in the water or something, and maybe there's something seemed
非常具有象征意义，不管那是什么，因为这是梦里唯一比较模糊的部分
very symbolic, whatever whatever it was, because it was the only part of the dream that was kind of vague.
它们有点像鳄鱼之类的，但很奇怪
Like, they were kinda like crocodiles or something, but it was weird.
他们在喂食这些生物，但前面只有些脆弱的屏障，像是在尽力阻止——几乎就像在告诉我，你已经离危险很近了，我们正尽力避免这种情况发生
Like, they were feeding them, but they had, like, flimsy barriers in front of these things to keep and they were, like, keeping them it was almost like letting me know, like, this is you're really close to getting fucked up, and we're we're doing our best to stop this from happening.
不过这只是我的过度解读
But it was that's just me reading into it.
但不管那是什么，他们明显是想先吓唬我然后又说
But whatever whatever it was, they were very clearly trying to scare me and then play.
老兄，我们开玩笑的啦
Dude, we're just kidding.
一切突然变成，哇，就是闹着玩的
Everything was like, woah, just messing around.
有那么几个瞬间我在想，你到底想干什么？
There was a couple of those moments where I was like, okay, what are you trying to do?
你是想让我习惯与你互动吗？
Are you trying to get me accustomed to interacting with you?
是啊。
Yeah.
这到底是怎么回事？
Like, what is this?
因为我当时感到非常不安。
Because I was very weirded out.
而且我觉得他们穿着什么，虽然我记不清了，但就像我说的，他们完全没有性别特征。
And I think they had their whatever they were wearing, because I think they were wearing something, but they were, like I said, they were very genderless.
他们穿的衣服和肤色一样，这很奇怪。
Whatever they were wearing was the same color as their skin, so it was strange.
有人问了你很多关于你童年的事。
You've been asked a lot about your childhood.
大家都知道你曾连续四年获得跆拳道冠军。
Everybody knows you were four years in a row Taekwondo champion.
那种纪律性在很多方面造就了今天的你。
That discipline brought you to where you are today in many ways.
现在人人都知道你痴迷于UFO。
Everybody knows you're UFO obsessed now.
是啊。
Yeah.
童年时有某个瞬间让你对外星人产生认知，或是看到过什么吗？
Was there a moment in childhood where you kind of got alien pilled, or saw something?
或者
Or
没有。
No.
遗憾的是，我从未目睹过任何异常。
Unfortunately, I never saw anything.
我真希望见过。
I wish.
小时候我一度以为自己看到了，但现在想想那很可能是一架战斗机。
I kind of thought I did maybe when I was young, but I think it was probably a fighter jet.
从我小时候起，我就常常仰望星空，然后思考：显然这不可能是唯一有生命的星球。
When from the time I was little, I would look up at the stars and I would just think, well, clearly, this can't be the only planet that has life on it.
这根本说不通。
Like, that doesn't even make any sense.
后来上学后，你了解到宇宙中有数千亿个星系。
And then, you know, going to school and you learn how many hundreds of billions of galaxies there are.
你就会想，哇。
You're like, woah.
每个星系又有数千亿颗恒星，那得有多少行星存在啊。
How many hundreds of billions of stars are on those galaxy and how many planets there must be.
所以肯定存在其他生命，但它们会对我们感兴趣吗？
Like, for sure, there's something else out here, but would they be interested in us?
他们会来拜访吗？
Would they visit?
然后，我迷上了蓝皮书计划，读了很多关于J的资料。
And, you know, then I got really into project blue book, and I read a lot of the stuff on J.
艾伦·海尼克，还有菲利普·科索的所有资料，以及罗斯威尔事件的内容。
Allen Hynek and, you know, and all of the Philip Corso stuff and the stuff from Roswell.
我就这样沉迷于阅读和观看当时能找到的所有粗制滥造的纪录片。
And I just became obsessed with reading and watching whatever flimsy documentaries were available back then.
你知道吗？
You know?
后来我觉得自己又回到了原点，因为我一直摇摆不定，觉得这些太荒谬了。
And then I think I really got back because I was always on the fence like, oh, this is nonsense.
这是真实的。
This is real.
这对我没有帮助。
This is not it's not helping me.
让我继续过我的生活吧。
Let me just go about my life.
然后，真正让我重新投入的是杰里米·科贝尔的《罗斯威尔——抱歉，是51区》以及鲍勃·拉扎尔的纪录片。
And then, really, Jeremy Corbelle's Roswell excuse me, Area 51, Bab Lazar documentary is what really brought me back in.
是啊。
Yeah.
那最终成为了你最标志性的节目之一。
And that ended up being one of your most iconic episodes.
我记得好像是你的第二或第三期
I believe it's like your second or third
表现最好的节目。
highest performance.
可能是YouTube上播放量最高的。
It might be the highest one on YouTube.
我记得在YouTube上有大约6300万次观看。
I think it has like 63,000,000 views on YouTube.
这太疯狂了。
It's so crazy.
那个
That
简直疯了。
one's nuts.
那个简直疯了，尤其是考虑到那次采访，那是什么时候的事？
That that one's nuts, especially considering from that interview, which was what was that?
2000还是1800之类的数字？
2,000 maybe 18 or something like that?
嗯。
Mhmm.
无论具体数字是多少，越来越多的证据证实了他的说法，并确认了他在八十年代谈到的许多内容，包括这些飞行器的设计、它们如何操纵周围的重力，以及如何通过非常奇特的推进系统在太空中移动。
Whatever it was, more and more has come out that substantiates what he said and confirms a lot of the stuff that he was talking about in the nineteen eighties in terms of the design of these crafts, how they manipulate gravity around them, and how they move through space with very strange propulsion system.
这正是我们现在不断从告密者以及像哈尔·普特夫这样据称掌握这些逆向工程项目信息的人那里反复听到的内容——他的说法非常准确。
And that's what we're hearing over and over again now from these whistleblowers and from these people like Hal Putoff and all these people that allegedly have information about these back engineering programs that that this is what he's saying is very accurate.
这简直就像你揭开了最惊人的内幕故事
And it's almost like you broke the most gnarly story there was, and a lot of these kind of people who are now in the forefront of disclosure trying to play catch up in some ways, because you have a guy who's claiming to have reverse engineered Yeah.
亲眼见证了整个过程
Raft firsthand.
是啊
Yeah.
而现在有人声称，我们确实拥有生物样本
And now you have people, you know, saying, you know, we do have biologics.
比如大卫·格鲁什
We have you know, you have David Grush Yeah.
他向情报界监察长托马斯·莫海姆提交了40份一手举报人材料，并表示情况紧急且可信
Giving 40 firsthand, you know, whistleblowers to the inspector general of the intelligence community, Thomas Monheim, and he says it's urgent and credible.
这种疯狂的大规模涌现，但在很多方面，我们还在追赶那个八十年代就在51区的人
It's this crazy sort of groundswell, but in many ways, we're playing catch up to this guy who was, like, there at Area 51, in the eighties.
要知道，他们曾用各种方式试图抹黑他
You know, they've tried to discredit him in many different ways.
他们首先试图否认他曾在洛斯阿拉莫斯工作过，但这点已被证实。
They tried to say first of all, they tried to say that he never worked at Los Alamos, but that's been confirmed.
是的。
Yeah.
然后他们又试图说他从未去过S4区或51区4号基地，但他确实在那里待过。
And then they tried to say that he was never at area s four or Area 51 Site 4, but he was there.
而且他心知肚明。
And he knew it.
他熟悉那里的布局。
He knew the layout.
他认识在那里工作的人。
He knew people that worked there.
曾在那里工作的人也证实他确实工作过。
People that did work there also confirmed that he worked there.
最初我告诉过你，记得吗，我在那里工作时还上过报纸头版。
Originally, I told you, you know, when I worked there, I was on the front page of the paper.
所以他们还是能够存档，你知道的，。
So they were still able to archive, you know, bring that back from the archives.
你知道，鲍勃·拉扎尔，一位在洛斯阿拉莫斯工作的物理学家，所以那里至少有些东西。
You know, Bob Lazar, a physicist working here at Los Alamos, so there was at least something there.
但不知怎么的，乔治找到了电话簿。
But somehow George came up with the phone directory.
然后鲍勃带着乔治和摄像机进入了洛斯阿拉莫 莫斯。
Then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos.
哦对，对。
Oh yeah, yeah.
所以我们飞过去，我说，听着，进来吧。
So we flew out there and I said, Look, come on in.
我会带你看看我工作的地方。
I'll show you where I worked.
我们会进去，会见一些人，乔治和我一起去了。
We'll go in, we'll meet people, and George went with me.
珍妮特航空，负责往返拉斯维加斯和51区的运输。
Janet Airlines, which takes you back and forth between Vegas and Area 51.
51区当时甚至没有真正进入公众视野。
Area 51 wasn't even really in the public zeitgeist Exactly.
直到他公开这件事之前。
Until he came out with it.
实际上直到奥巴马政府时期才得到官方确认，因为当时政府想扩大禁区范围——由于太多人闯入非保密区域拍摄视频。
It actually wasn't even confirmed until the Obama administration, because the Obama administration, they wanted to expand the barriers for entry, like or where people were allowed to access the land because too many people were getting to non secure land and taking video.
据称他们当时正在拍摄这些飞行器的照片和视频。
So they were filming and taking photographs allegedly, of these crafts.
因此政府需要扩大禁区范围，这就不得不先承认该基地的存在。
And so they wanted to make it a little bit wider, and so they had to confirm that it existed.
真是疯狂。
So wild.
我有个朋友正在和鲍勃·拉扎尔合作拍摄纪录片。
I think we're gonna so there's a a buddy of mine's making a documentary with Bob Lazar.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
它被称为引力子计划。
It's called Project Gravitar.
我认为我们会得到更多能证实他故事的数据点，包括你对他进行的采访。
And I think we're gonna get a lot more confirmation and data points that corroborates his story, your interview of him.
我想我们还会发现S4基地也是真实存在的，而这一点至今都被否认。
I think we're gonna find out that S four is very real too, and that's been denied up until today.
嗯，我们确实有S4基地的卫星图像。
Well, we do have satellite images of s four.
我们吗？
Do we?
我相信是的。
I believe so.
好的。
Okay.
我相信有那片土地本身的图像，因为它是地下的。
I believe there's images of the land itself, and you can because it's underground.
不过确实。
But yeah.
但外部有停机棚的区域。
But there's the outside of it where the hangars are.
我很确定你其实能在网上找到。
I'm pretty sure you could actually get it online.
好的。
Okay.
明白。
Okay.
这可能是胡扯。
It might be bullshit.
知道了。
Okay.
但我很确定有航拍画面，就是那种能让你看出'哦，那里确实有东西'的。
But I'm pretty sure there is an overhead, like, where you could see, oh, there's something there.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，那好吧。
Well, so okay.
如果和我想到的是同一件事，那他确实有那些数据，但那些是他们在谷歌地球上试图掩盖的东西。
If it's the same thing I'm thinking of, then he has that data, but it's like stuff they tried to cover up on Google Earth.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的。
Yeah.
就像那个被抹去的Point Doom外星基地之类的。
It's like that Point Doom alien base that they erased or whatever.
对。
Yeah.
那个
That
真奇怪。
is weird.
奇怪。
Weird.
这太奇怪了，因为他们把地面模糊处理了。是的。
That's so weird because they blurred out the ground Yep.
在水里。
In the water.
希望大家正在享受这无疑是迄今为止最传奇的一期《美国炼金术》节目，特邀独一无二的乔·罗根参与。
I hope everyone's enjoying what is certainly one of the most legendary American Alchemy episodes yet, featuring the one and only Joe Rogan.
对于这样一期节目，我想与我最喜欢的产品之一合作作为赞助商。
For an episode like this, I wanted to work with one of my favorite products as a sponsor.
我说的当然是酮智商（ketone IQ）。
I'm, of course, talking about ketone IQ.
我个人不喝咖啡因，不碰尼古丁，而且对大多数兴奋剂反应不太好。
I personally don't drink caffeine, I don't do nicotine, and I don't really do that well with most stimulants.
酮智商（Ketone IQ）是为数不多能给我提供极其稳定能量、清晰专注力、且毫无焦虑感和能量崩溃的产品。
Ketone IQ is one of the few things I do that provides me with insanely steady energy, clear focus, zero jitters, and zero crash.
为什么它如此有效？
Why is it so effective?
因为酮智商能为大脑提供酮体——这是大脑最高效的燃料来源。
Because ketone IQ gives your brain ketones, which are its most efficient fuel source.
它最初实际上是通过一个耗资数百万美元的军事项目开发的，用于高压力环境。
It was actually originally developed through a multimillion dollar military program for high stress environments.
现在它被创始人、研究人员以及那些需要在关键时刻保持思维敏锐的人所使用。
And now it's used by founders, researchers, and people who need their mind to function when it matters most.
这款产品对我而言意义非凡，因为我认识酮智商的创始人杰夫和迈克尔已有十多年。
This product is also very close to my heart because I've known the founders of Ketone IQ, Jeff and Michael, for over a decade.
这两个人都极其聪明且坚如磐石。
Both of these guys are extremely smart and rock solid.
他们尝试过所有顶级补充剂和最佳生物黑客方案。
They've tried all the top supplements and all of the best biohacks.
自从尝试后，我就彻底爱上了它。
Since trying it, I've been absolutely hooked.
这确实是我尝试过的最纯净的能量来源之一。
It's truly one of the cleanest energy sources I've tried.
没有情绪波动，没有焦虑感，结束时也不会感到疲惫。
No ups, no downs, no jitters, no crash at the end.
所以在您继续收听这期精彩节目之前，请访问ketone.com/alchemy，订阅订单可享7折优惠，并且第二次发货还能获得免费赠品。
So before you jump back into this epic episode, visit ketone.com/alchemy for 30% off your subscription order, plus receive a free gift with your second shipment.
再次提醒，访问ketone.com/alchemy可享7折优惠。
Again, that's ketone.com/alchemy for a 30% discount.
或者您也可以在全国各地的Target商店购买ketone IQ，并免费获得首次试用装。
Or you can find ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free.
说真的，这东西确实有效。
Seriously, this stuff works.
我非常喜欢它，这完全改变了我的生活状态。
I love it, and it's been an absolute game changer for me.
再次感谢ketone IQ赞助本期与乔·罗根的历史性节目。
Thanks again to ketone IQ for sponsoring today's historic episode with Joe Rogan.
在本节目中，我们将探讨先进的尖端技术。
On this show, we talk about advanced exotic technology.
但你将接触的最先进系统其实是自己的身体机能。
But the most advanced system you'll ever deal with is your own body, your own biology.
随着年龄增长，身体的反应会越来越迟缓。
And the older you get, the slower your body responds.
这并不是身体坏了。
It's not broken.
只是有点反应迟钝。
It's just a bit laggy.
这就是干细胞发挥作用的地方。
That's where stem cells come in.
它们本质上是你体内的维修小队。
They're basically your built in repair crew.
随着年龄增长，你体内干细胞发出的信号会逐渐减弱。
And as we age, the signals your stem cells send get weaker.
Qualia干细胞产品旨在支持这些自然的修复过程。
Qualia stem cell is designed to support those natural repair processes.
他们采用经过充分研究的成分，如沙棘和蜂王浆，帮助身体完成它原本就在尝试的工作。
They use well researched ingredients like sea buckthorn and royal jelly that help your body do what it's already trying to do.
我最欣赏的是它极其简单的使用方式。
What I like is how dead simple it is.
每月只需服用四天。
You take it four days a month.
就这么简单。
That's it.
不需要每天服用四十粒药丸，没有长期承诺，只需四天的集中使用就能支持身体恢复和健康衰老。
No forty pill stack, no daily commitment, just four focused days to support recovery and healthy aging.
所以如果你曾感觉身体不再像从前那样快速恢复，无论是剧烈运动后、生病后，还是日常生活损耗，这款产品就是为你准备的。
So if you've ever felt like your body just doesn't bounce back like it used to, whether it's after a tough workout, getting sick, or just the wear and tear of life, this product is for you.
Qualia干细胞产品旨在支持您身体的自然修复系统，帮助您愈合、恢复并保持强健状态。
Qualia Stem Cell was designed to support your body's natural repair systems, helping you heal, recover, and keep going strong.
现在，您可以在qualialife.com/jessie上以高达50%的折扣试用。
And right now, you can try it for up to 50% off at qualialife.com/jessie.
重申一次，这是qualialife.com/jessie上的50%折扣。
Again, that is 50% off at qualialife.com/jessie.
还有个额外福利。
And here's a bonus.
使用优惠码jessie（j e s s i e），订单可再享15%折扣。
Use the code jessie, j e s s e, for an additional 15% off that order.
优惠地址是qualialife.com/jesse。
That's at qualialife.com/jesse.
您的身体天生具备自我修复能力。
Your body is built to repair itself.
Qualia只是帮助它更高效地完成这个过程。
Qualia just helps it do that better.
特别感谢Qualia赞助本视频。
A big thanks to Qualia for sponsoring this video.
昨天我邀请了Dan Farr上播客节目。
I had Dan Farr on the podcast yesterday.
感觉如何？
How was that?
非常棒。
It was great.
对于不了解的观众，Dan制作了这部新纪录片《揭秘时代》，非常精彩。
For people who don't know, Dan made this new documentary, The Age of Disclosure, which is excellent.
这是我看过的关于UAP/UFO现象最出色的纪录片之一。
It's one of the very best documentaries on the whole UAP UFO phenomenon that I think I've ever seen.
里面没有太多真实影像资料，可能只有几分钟关于GoFast或Gimbal的片段。
And there's no real footage in it, maybe a couple minutes of footage of, like, the GoFast or the Gimbal.
但主要内容其实是高级情报人员讲述他们所知的情况
But really, most of what it's about is high level intelligence operatives explaining what they know and
像伍尔西、詹姆斯·克拉珀这些人，他们都是国家情报总监级别的，负责监督所有情报机构，还有布伦南等等。
what they People like Woolsey and James Clapper, like, these guys who are like DNI level, like, overseeing all of the intel agencies, Brennan, you know, all these people.
说到马可·卢比奥，我认为他的参与至关重要，毕竟这是现任政府的态度，他的介入和紧迫感。
And Marco Rubio, to his credit, I think, him his involvement was huge, you know, because it's the current administration, his involvement and his urgency.
舒默、卢比奥这些人都表示：'听着，一群高级军官来找我们，要么他们疯了'
Schumer, Rubio, all those guys are like, look, a bunch of freaking high level officers came to us and either they're crazy
是啊。
Yeah.
要么这事是真的。
Or this shit's real.
这些人大多曾拥有或仍持有政府最高级别的安全许可和职位。
Most of these people at some point or maybe even currently have held very high clearances and high positions within our government.
这是我和丹讨论的重点之一。
So this is one of the things that Dan and I talked about.
他坚信美国和中国都回收了这些坠毁飞行器，并且都在进行逆向工程计划。
He firmly believes that both The United States and China has retrieved these crashed vehicles and that they are also in this back engineering program.
他们有自己的逆向工程项目，而且这是一场竞赛。
They're in a back engineering program of their own, and there is a race.
他...你知道的，人们谈论这件事时，说它像是打了兴奋剂的曼哈顿计划。
And he's he you know, people talk about it like it's the Manhattan Project on steroids.
关于人工智能我也听过这种说法。
I've heard that about AI too.
对吧？
Right?
不过这也可能是真的。
But which might also be true.
而且它们可能在某种程度上是有关联的。
And they might also be connected in some way.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我认为卢比奥担心的是中国会率先发展这项技术，而美国要真正赶上来的唯一方式就是开放这项技术。
I think what Rubio is concerned with is that China develops this technology first, and the only way that The United States is really gonna catch up is if we open this up.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们开放它并消除所有嘲笑，因为永远记住。
And we open it up and remove all the ridicule because forever look.
我是个傻乎乎的人，所以拿我开玩笑很容易，我也不介意。
I I'm a silly person, so it's easy to make fun of me, and I don't mind.
我实际上是个职业喜剧演员。
I'm being literally professional comedian.
所以我会说些蠢话也不担心。
So I I'll say stupid shit and not worry.
比如，哦，人们会觉得你是个白痴。
Like, oh, people are gonna think you're an idiot.
我就说，我告诉你我就是个白痴。
I'm like, I'll tell you I'm an idiot.
你不用费心去确认我是不是个白痴。
You don't have to, like, look to see if I'm an idiot.
我觉得你比你自己认为的要聪明得多。
I think you're much smarter than you give yourself credit for.
听着，我认识真正聪明的人。
Listen, I know really smart people.
这是相对的。
It's relative.
是啊。
Yeah.
一切都是相对的。
It's all relative.
你拥有那种广泛的知识面。
You got that, like, that general breadth of knowledge.
说实话，能达到你这种水平的人可不多。
Like, not too many people are at your level, man.
是啊。
Yeah.
但你也知道那种感觉对吧？
But it's it's also you know what it's like?
就像人们常说的，天啊。
It's like people say, like, oh, man.
你一定是个超厉害的格斗家。
You must be an amazing fighter.
我就说，听着。
I'm like, listen.
我在UFC工作。
I work for the UFC.
每天上班周围都是能轻松干掉我的家伙。
I'm around dudes who can kill me every single day I work there.
他们每个人都能要了我的命。
Every one of them could kill me.
毫无疑问。
No questions asked.
和普通人比，确实如此，但对没受过训练的人来说。
Like, compared to a regular person, yeah, but to an untrained person.
是啊。
Yeah.
这就是我对智力的看法。
That's how I look at intelligence.
就像，我虽然不像我认识的最蠢的人那么笨，但埃隆·马斯克是我的朋友。
It's like, am I I'm not as dumb as the dumbest people I know, but I know Elon Elon's a friend of mine.
你懂我意思吧？
You know what I mean?
我是说，我认识很多非常聪明的人。
I mean, I'm I'm friends with a lot of, like, very brilliant people.
这事情是有层次之分的。
There's levels to this thing.
明白吗？
You know?
我今天请帕尔默·拉基上了播客。
I had Palmer Lucky on the podcast today.
是啊。
Yeah.
他开始跟我聊起来。
He started talking to me.
他说，哦，好吧。
He go, oh, okay.
嗯，这事情是有层次的
Well, there's levels
的。
to this.
懂我意思吗？
You know?
这世界上真的他妈的有聪明人，而我不是其中之一。
And there's really fucking smart people in this world, and I'm not one of them.
但我足够聪明，知道我所知道的，也足够聪明，不害怕别人认为我不聪明。
But I I'm smart enough to know what I know, and I'm smart enough to not be afraid of people thinking that I'm not smart.
所以这个话题总是被嘲笑，如果你公开谈论它，作为一个记者或正经作家，可能会毁掉你的事业——看看惠特利·斯特里伯就知道了。
So the the subject has always been, like, very ridiculed and this and you could, like, really fumble your career if you went out and said if you were a journalist or if you were, like, a legitimate author or like like, look at Whitley Stryber.
是的。
Yep.
我不知道那家伙后来怎么了。
I don't know what happened to that dude.
没错。
Yep.
但我知道在正统文学界，大家都把他当作怪人看待，因为他就是那个拍电影写书讲外星人绑架的家伙。
But I know that everybody, like, sort of dismisses him as a kook in the real literature world because he's this guy who made these movies and books about being abducted by aliens.
关什么？
Shut what?
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
所以你立刻就会沾上这种怪人的标签。
So you immediately get this, like, smell of kook that's on you.
我觉得马克·卢比奥谈论这个话题时解释说，这些都是我被告知的情况。
And I think Marco Rubio talking about this and and and explaining, like, this is what I've been told.
这就是我所知道的。
This is what I know.
这是真实存在的。
This is a real thing.
有足球场大小的载具正在以500节的速度在海洋中穿行。
There are vehicles the size of a football field that are moving through the ocean at 500 knots.
我们完全不知道它们要去哪里。
We have no idea where they're going.
你知道，蒂姆·伯查德最近说他们已经确认了世界海洋中的五个区域。
You know, Tim Burchard recently said that there's they've identified five areas in the oceans of the world Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
这些东西定期从这些地方冒出来。
Where these things are coming out of on a regular basis.
我们在这五六个深水区域——我记得是深水区——目击事件的发生率更高。
We have a higher propensity of sightings around these five or six, I believe, deep area deepwater areas.
所以现在有这些人讨论这件事，正在慢慢但确实地消除那层嘲笑的面纱。
So you've got these people talking about this, and it's slowly but surely removing that layer of ridicule.
而那层嘲笑的面纱威力很大，伙计。
And that layer of ridicule is powerful, man.
人们都不愿意被人当成傻子。
People don't like to be thought of as a fool.
你懂吧？
You know?
我认为正是这点阻碍了我们。
And I think that holds us back.
首先，如果美国要采取行动，他们需要某种形式的赦免机制。
And if The United States like, if if first of all, they're gonna need some sort of an amnesty thing.
这是我们讨论过的问题之一。
This is one of the things that we talked about.
他们必须这么做，因为肯定有人对国会撒了谎。
They're gonna need because for sure, there was lying to congress.
肯定存在资金挪用不当的问题，可能还有些腐败行为。
For sure, there's misappropriate misappropriation of funds and probably some corruption.
当你缺乏监管时，涉及数十亿甚至万亿美元的资金，肯定有人拿了不该拿的钱。
Like, when you have no oversight, billions, if not a trillion dollars, like, for sure, somebody got some money they shouldn't have got.
你得让所有这些都变得可以接受。
You're gonna have to make all that okay.
你必须说，为了国家安全和人类未来的利益，那些破事都别管了。
You're gonna have to say, in the interest of national security and the future of the human race, fuck all that.
你必须这么做。
You're gonna have to do that.
如果他们不这么做，我们将会面临一个严重问题，因为这些守门人会继续把守，因为他们的生计全系于此。
And if they don't do that, we're gonna have a real problem because these gatekeepers are gonna continue to gatekeep because their lives depend on this.
是啊。
Yeah.
如果他们公开这些，他们可能会在没有特赦的情况下锒铛入狱，余生都在监狱度过。
If they if they release this, they could find themselves in jail without any amnesty in jail for the rest of their lives.
比如，我们不知道具体花了多少钱。
Like, we don't know how much money was spent.
我们不清楚对国会撒了多少谎。
We don't know how much lying to congress there was.
我们根本不知道犯下了多少重罪。
We have no idea how many felonies there were.
我们完全一无所知。
We don't have no idea.
让我们假设坠毁物回收计划真实存在，逆向工程项目也取得了成功。
Let's assume that crash retrieval programs were real and that back engineering programs were successful.
所以你不会把这些东西平均分配给所有不同的国防承包商。
So you're not gonna give this stuff evenly to all these different defense contractors.
如果你给一家国防承包商一件物品，他们突然就获得了巨大优势，而其他承包商则可能破产——就像许多已经倒闭的企业那样，那你现在就要面临一场重大诉讼。
So if you give one defense contractor one object and all of sudden they have this massive advantage, and then the other defense contractor winds up going under as many of them have gone out of business, well, now you have a major lawsuit on your hands.
要知道，如果司法系统公正的话，很可能还会有人因此坐牢。
You know, you have all sorts of and then probably people are gonna go to jail if if it's a just legal system.
百分之百。
A 100%.
对。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
对于那些持怀疑态度、只想给情报界人士的言论打负分的人，我们甚至不必对他们的动机抱有理想主义期待。
And for, I think, the cynics out there who might just wanna put a minus sign against anybody coming from the intelligence world and saying things, it this we're not even necessarily being idealistic about their motivations.
我们只是说国家安全可能才是首要考量。是的。
We're just saying that it's probably national security run runs the day Yes.
这可能是曼哈顿计划2.0版本。
And that this might be the Manhattan Project two point o.
仔细想想，最初的曼哈顿计划是关于武器当量的。
If you think about it, the first Manhattan Project was payload potency.
就是制造越来越大的炸弹。
It was bigger and bigger bombs.
《奥本海默》里甚至有个场景，他在批评泰勒，说氢弹威力太大，根本没有合适的打击目标。
And there's even a scene in Oppenheimer where he's criticizing Teller because he's like, there is no target big enough for the the h bomb's way too big.
所以在那之后，重点就转向了投送系统。
And so beyond that, it's all about pay payload delivery.
从洲际导弹到隐形战机，再到他们现在研究的各种玩意儿。如果他们真有这种技术，肯定会公开的。尽管我对此持怀疑态度——任何对UFO感兴趣的人大概都对情报界持怀疑态度。
It's all about the, you know, ICBMs into stealth fighters into whatever the hell they're working with now, and if they do have this technology, obviously they're gonna open it up, and as much as I can be cynical, and anybody who's into UFOs is probably cynical about the intel world.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们现在放出这些消息确实有道理，毕竟存在这场军备竞赛什么的。
It kinda makes sense that they'd let this stuff out now, because there is this arms race or whatever.
假设这些故事都是真实的，逆向工程确实存在。
There's a race going on with both Let's assume that that stories are correct and that back engineering is real.
假设他们已经回收了飞行器。
Let's assume that they have recovered crafts.
所以这是一场关于这方面的竞赛。
So there is a race with that.
但也许更关键且完全相关的是人工智能竞赛，因为我觉得这才是通往宇宙的真正门户。
But then maybe even more critically and completely connected is the AI race because I feel like that is the legitimate gateway to the cosmos.
我觉得当我们通过人工通用超级智能实现意识时，当它有能力制造更好的自我版本时，当它有能力设计新的能源利用方式和资源使用方法时——就像我们现在拥有的那些十五世纪人们根本无法想象的技术一样，你懂吗？
I feel like when we achieve sentience with artificial general super intelligence, when it has the ability to make better versions of itself, when it has the ability to devise new methods of power, new new ways of using resources that we never even imagined, just like we have now that they never imagined in the fourteen hundreds, you know?
而且我认为这一切会发展得非常、非常快。
And I think it's gonna happen very, very quickly.
所以如果存在逆向工程项目的话，可能有些障碍我们就是无法克服，比如：他们到底是怎么做到的？
So if there is a back engineering program, and there may maybe there's some hurdles that we just can't get over, like, how did they do this?
就像，这怎么可能实现呢？
Like, how is it possible to do that?
嗯，人工智能很可能会找出一种可行的实现方式，并发明出能促成这种可能性的技术。
Well, AI is probably going to figure out a possible way that it could be done and what possible inventions could be made to facilitate this possible thing.
然后它们可能就会直接开始动手实施。
And they'll probably just go go ahead and start doing it.
当你拥有人工智能，再加上量子计算那难以理解的强大能力时——这种能力令人困惑到你会忍不住喊停。
And when you have AI and then you have the incomprehensible power of quantum computing, which is so baffling, it's so baffling that you go, wait a minute.
你他妈刚才说了什么？
What the fuck did you just say?
最近有个例子，我记得是谷歌的量子计算机，它解决了一个需要全球超级计算机花26亿年才能解出的方程，而它只用了几分钟。
One of the more recent ones, I believe it's the Google one, they solved an equation that would take the world's supercomputers, I think it was two point six billion years to solve, and it solved it in a matter of minutes.
这太疯狂了。
It's so crazy.
还有柳树芯片，他们说为了让这成为现实，多元宇宙必须存在
Then the Willow Chip, they say the multiverse has to exist
或者诸如此类的原因。
or whatever for it.
这是什么意思？
What does that mean?
马克·安德森在我的播客上说过，这是解决这个问题的唯一方法。
The only way for it to solve this problem Marc Andreessen said it on my podcast.
他说，这个方程太难解了，如果你把宇宙中的每个原子都变成一台超级计算机，宇宙会在解出这个方程之前就因热寂而消亡，而它几分钟就解出来了。
He said, the equation is so difficult to solve that if you took every atom in the universe and converted it to a supercomputer, the universe would die of heat death before it would solve this equation, and it solved it in minutes.
所以，我们到底在谈论什么？
So, like, what are we even talking about?
现在想象一下，这连接到人工通用超级智能上，本质上就是一个数字神。
Now now imagine that being connected to artificial general super intelligence, which is essentially a digital god.
是啊。
Yeah.
你要造出这个东西，然后它会造出更好的版本。
You're going to make this thing that makes a better version of this thing.
这将是指数级增长的。
It's gonna be exponential.
这将会非常迅速地发生。
It's gonna happen very rapidly.
那么，这最终会怎样？
Well, what's the end of that?
最终的结果是全知全能。
What's the end of that is all powerful, all knowing.
如果你真的想深入探讨，这可能就是上帝形成的方式。
And if you really want to get weird, that might be how God gets formed.
我的意思是，字面意义上上帝可能真实存在。
I mean, literally God might be a real thing.
这可能就是上帝形成的方式。
That might be how God gets formed.
而这可能就是人类拥有好奇心和对技术创新永不满足的渴望的全部原因。
And that might be the whole reason why human beings have curiosity and this insatiable desire for technological innovation.
不仅仅是为了生存，也不仅仅是为了创造更好的东西，而是——这就是原因所在。
And not just to stay alive, not just to make better stuff, but but this is why.
因为如果你任其自然发展，最终会导致人工生命的出现。
Because that if you just follow it out to its natural course, that's going to lead to an artificial life.
是啊。
Yeah.
我以前经常听你这么说。
I've heard you say that a lot before.
就像我们的消费模式几乎是与生俱来地渴望越来越多，于是我们不得不相应地生产更多，仿佛在自身之外创造着某种神明。
That, like, our consumptive patterns are almost built in to want more and more and more, and then we have to produce more and more in step, and we're, like, creating this god outside of ourselves.
比如想想物质主义。
Like, think about materialism.
这很愚蠢。
It's fool foolishness.
人的寿命是有限的，但你看那些八十多岁的人，明明已经拥有巨额财富，却还在试图攫取更多。
You have a finite lifespan, and you have people in their eighties, like, trying to acquire immense wealth when they already have immense wealth.
没错。
Yeah.
就像，沃伦·巴菲特还在玩这个游戏。
Like, they're like, Warren Buffett's still in the game.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
他的身价有几十亿美元。
Like, he's worth billions of dollars.
他都八十多岁了，还在那里交易和操作。
He's in his eighties, and he's still out there trading and move.
这到底是为了什么？
Like, what is that about?
是啊。
Yeah.
你为什么想要更多东西？
Why would you want more stuff?
你为什么想要更多钱和更多东西？
Why would you want more money and more stuff?
因为没有比市场更能推动技术创新的了。
Because nothing fuels technological innovation like the market.
而要让市场成功，你必须沉迷其中。
And in order for the market to be successful, you have to be obsessed.
比如我有iPhone 16，这破玩意儿已经开始出问题了，因为17都出了。
Like, I have the iPhone 16, and this motherfucker is starting to mess up on me because the seventeen's out.
电池变得慢多了。
The battery's a lot slower.
就像它消耗电池更快了。
It's like it go it burns through the battery quicker.
有时候还会卡顿。
Sometimes it glitches on me.
老兄，你特么一年都没出过故障的。
I'm like, dude, you didn't glitch for a whole year, bitch.
就像你心里就想要最新款。
It's like it's in that you want the newest one.
你想要最新款，苹果公司就因此被指控过。
You want the latest one, and Apple's been accused of that.
计划性淘汰。
Planned obsolescence.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且这确实是真的。
And they it is it's true.
他们都承认了。
They've admitted to it.
他们还以'旧款电池会老化'为借口来合理化这种行为。
And they've done it under the guise of, oh, well, you know, when the the older ones, the batteries decay.
我们是想保护电池寿命。
We're trying to preserve the battery.
闭嘴吧你。
Like, shut up.
就让电池报废呗，混蛋。
Just let the battery die, bitch.
别乱动我手机。
Don't monkey with my phone.
但就像这样，我有个用了很久的iPhone 11，我一直留着它是因为我一位去世的好友在上面留了条语音留言。
But it's just like this I I have an iPhone 11 that I've had forever, and I I keep it because a good friend of mine who died, he left me a voicemail, and it's on that.
唉，老兄。
Aw, man.
那台手机现在还好用得很。
And that phone works great.
用起来跟新的一样。
Like, it works the same.
是啊。
Yeah.
能用就不需要换新手机，
It works I don't need a new phone,
但我每年都会换新机，因为我是个蠢货，我们都是蠢货，总在买最新款的电视、最新款的笔记本，哦，新出的ThinkPad带触摸屏了，然后你就会继续这样买下去。
but I'm going to get a new one every year because I'm a dumbass, and we're all dumbasses, and we're all buying the newest TVs and the newest laptops, and, oh, the new ThinkPad came out with a touch screen, and you're gonna keep doing that.
如果你随波逐流，如果所有人都这么做，会带来什么结果？
And and that if you just follow that, if everyone's doing that, what does that do?
它会催生更好的产品。
It makes better stuff.
如果你从外星视角观察人类文明，假设你是来自其他星球的生命体，你会想：他们到底在干什么？
If you looked at the human race as from an outside perspective, if you were a life form from somewhere else, like, okay, what are they doing?
这个星球上占据主导地位的生命体在做什么？
What is the predominant what is the dominant life force on this planet do?
噢，原来他们在不断创造更好的东西。
Oh, it makes better things.
这就是它所做的全部。
That's all it does.
就像一只不知道为何要筑巢的工蜂。
It's like a worker bee that doesn't know why it's making a hive.
它只是在不断制造更好的东西，痴迷于制造更好的东西。
It's just making better things all the time, obsessed with making better things.
你应该停止对积累物品的需求，停止你对大车大房子的追求，找到你真正热爱的事情，并想办法以此谋生。
You should stop your need for accumulating objects and stop your need for, you know, a a big car and a big house and find out something that you actually love to do and figure out a way to do it for a living.
我播客上有个非常聪明的人叫马修·派恩斯，他说，他曾和某个中情局的人交谈。
I I had a very smart guy named Matthew Pines on my podcast, and he said, he was speaking to some, like, CIA guy.
那个中情局的人说，你知道，这是个三角关系。
And the CIA guy was like, you know, it's a triangle.
人工智能、量子计算和格鲁什那些东西。
AI, quantum, and the grush stuff.
就是这样。
That was it.
当时我们处在一个环境里，我不便过多追问这个问题，你知道，这不是那种能坐下来长谈几个小时的情况。
And we were, you know, in an environment where I couldn't, didn't wanna press too much into the issue, you know, I didn't have, where it wasn't like this sort of sit down, it's like, could go for hours.
所以，事情基本上就这样告一段落了。
So, that was basically where it sort of landed.
我一直在反复琢磨这件事。
And And I've been chewing on that for a while.
就是AI、量子和Grush相关的东西。
You know, AI, quantum, and the Grush stuff.
太疯狂了。
That's wild.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你觉得这一切是不是...他当时说如果这三件事开始交汇，就会形成某种意识升华的现象，有点像你说的那样。
And do you think all of this is like And he was like, if all of those three things seem to converge, it's like this kind of consciousness apotheosis thing, kind of what you're saying.
是的。
Yes.
你是否认为所有这些趋势现在同时汇聚并非巧合？
Do you think there's something happening where all these trends are converging now simultaneously and it's not a coincidence?
就像UFO信息披露与深度伪造技术同时出现。
Like, we're UFO disclosure is happening at the time of deep fakes.
这太奇怪了。
It's so weird.
对吧？
Right?
我认为这一切都是有意为之。
I think that's all on purpose.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这是我们正在经历的有趣部分，因为这确实是个切实的体验。
I think that's a part of the fun of the the experience that we're going through, you know, because it is a tangible experience.
我相信生命是真实的。
I believe life is real.
我相信这张桌子是真实的。
I believe this table is real.
我相信现实存在，但我不认为现实像我们愿意相信的那样界限分明。
I believe in reality, but I don't think reality is as clearly defined as we like to believe it is.
我认为现实在某种程度上以一种对意识个体而言难以描述的奇妙方式，很大程度上依赖于意识。
I think reality is dependent a lot on consciousness in some sort of a strange, indescribable way to a conscious person.
我不...我不认为它是...我不认为它是非黑即白的。
I don't I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's very binary.
我不认为它是简单的1和0。
I don't think it's ones and zeros.
我觉得它难以捉摸，而且它...它依赖于很多因素。
I think it's slippery, and I think it it it's dependent upon a lot of things.
是啊。
Yeah.
这里面有很多门道。
There's a lot going on.
而且我也总是在想，比如，我的经历到底是什么？
And and it's also I always wonder, like, what is what is my what is my experience?
我的旅程是什么？
What is my trip?
我在这个世界上的旅程是怎样的？
What is my journey through this world?
比如，为什么？
Like, why?
为什么我会经历所有这些奇怪的事情，让我成为今天的我？
Why do I have all these weird things that have happened to me that have led me to be who I am today?
这像是一种设计吗？
Like, is that a design?
因为如果不是设计的话...好吧，如果你想造就一个像我这样的人，这就是方法。
Because if it's not a design well, if you wanted to make someone like me, that's how you do it.
你就是要那样做。
You do it exactly that way.
但我想假装，哦，这一切不过是，你知道的，就像是决定论与自由意志的对立。
But I wanna pretend that, oh, this is all just you know, it's like the it's like determinism versus free will.
我认为两者都有。
I think both.
我认为两者是相互交织的。
I think both are they're intertwined.
我不认为事情那么泾渭分明。
I don't think it's that clear.
而且我认为你的经历与我的经历大不相同，而我们所有人的经历又都紧密相连。
And I think your experience is very different than my experience, and all of our experiences are all tied in together.
尽管听起来很怪，但我真心相信这一切都是为了同一个目标。
And I really believe, as strange as it sounds, it's towards this one goal.
我认为这个目标就是人类物种的进步。
And I think this one goal is the advancement of the human species.
我想我们都扮演着各自的角色，就像微生物在环境中发挥作用，植物在环境中发挥作用，阳光和风也是如此。
And I think we all play a role just like microbes play a role in the environment and plants play a role in the environment and so does sunlight and so does wind.
所有这些，但你将它们解析出来，并视作独立个体来看待。
All these but you parse them out and you look at them as individuals.
你会觉得，哦，风是这样运作的，它推动云朵，但它们共同构成了一个方程式，以非常特定的方式驱动着一切。
You're like, oh, the wind does this and it carries the clouds, But it's all together like an equation that's driving things in a very specific way.
而我...我真心相信我们的旅程，我们的经历是独一无二的。
And I I I really believe that our trip, that our experience is a very unique one.
现在正在听这段话的人们，未来回望时可能会说：天啊，他们简直错得离谱，或者他们完全说对了。
The people that are living right now that are hearing this currently, in the future, they might look back at this and go, boy, they fucking they were so wrong, or they nailed it.
你懂吗？
You know?
二者必居其一。
One of those.
但我认为我们都在有意识地共同构建某种东西。
But I think we are all purposely building towards something.
而我认为那个东西...它带着宗教经典的余韵。
And I think that something is it has the echoes of religious texts.
我认为，你知道的，各种宗教中关于人类起源的故事，这些故事里都有与类似《以诺书》中记载的守望者下凡与人类结合创造拿非利人这样的互动。
I think that the, you know, the origin story of the human race from various religions, I think that is that is that these all these stories where there's interactions with, like, the book of Enoch, the watchers that came down and bred with men and created the Nephilim.
这听起来不就像是基因工程吗？
Like, doesn't that sound like genetic engineering?
比如'与人类结合'是什么意思？是指发生性关系吗？
Like, if bred with like, had sex with men what what do you mean?
你的意思是提取他们的基因与我们的基因融合？
Like, what is that so you mean take their genes and introduce them to ours?
假设你是个生活在六千年前的原始人，试图复述一个五千年前的故事
Where if you're a a dummy who lived six thousand years ago and you're trying to recall a 5,000 year old story Yeah.
那很可能就是它呈现的方式。
That's probably how it presents itself.
如果自新仙女木撞击事件以来你们已经经历了五千年的野蛮时期。
If you've had five thousand years of barbarism since the Younger Dryas impact.
所以我认为确实存在过先进文明。
So you have advanced civilizations, which is what I believe.
我属于兰德尔·卡尔森和格雷厄姆·汉考克学派。
I'm in the Randall Carlson Graham Hancock school.
我认为这不是我们的第一轮文明。
I don't think this is our first go around.
我认为古埃及就是最好的证明。
I think ancient Egypt is a great testament to that.
我觉得存在某种走不同发展路线的先进文明。
I think there was some sort of an advanced civilization that was on a different pathway than we are.
我们走的是电子内燃机这条路。
We're on this electronic internal combustion engine pathway.
他们走的是另一条路。
They were on a different pathway.
但我认为他们达到了与我们相似——甚至更高的技术水平，拥有操控物质的能力。
But I think they achieved the a similar, if not greater, level of technology and the ability to manipulate matter.
单看他们建造金字塔的成就，就足以说明一切。
What they've just what they've done with the pyramids and, like Yeah.
人们尝试过。
The people try.
他们竭尽全力想找出一些解释。
They do their best to come up with some explanations.
这些解释都很愚蠢。
They're all dumb.
每一个解释都糟糕透顶。
Every every explanation sucks.
它们烂透了。
They suck.
他们讨厌你这么说，会因此发怒——但古人确实很聪明。
And they hate it when you say that, and they get angry, and people were smart back then.
当然。
Sure.
但仅限于这些人吗？
But only these people?
只有这些人，比如6000年前，我们可以认同那时的人很愚昧，他们甚至还没有掌握炼钢技术？
Only these people were, like, 6,000 ago, we we could agree that people were dumb, and they didn't even have steel yet?
我们到底在做什么？
Like, what are we doing?
这种对比太鲜明了，比如你节目上请过的埃及前文化部长扎希·哈瓦斯，和兰德尔·卡尔森或格雷厄姆·汉考克这样的人——他们如此雄辩、如此睿智。我觉得你一直在刻意淡化自己的智慧，但正因你能应对污名化，能游走于他人所谓的'错误信息'边缘，现在全世界都认为查尔斯·曼森是MK Ultra计划的实验对象——仅仅因为你认识格雷格·菲茨西蒙斯，而他认识汤姆·奥尼尔，这太疯狂了。
And the the the contrast, the the stark contrast between between Zahi Hawass, who you had on, the former minister of culture in Egypt, and somebody like a Randall Carlson or Graham Hancock, who are so articulate, so smart, and I think, you know, you're constantly, I think, playing down your intelligence, but I think because you can deal with stigma, because you can play with what other people consider misinformation, the whole world now thinks that Charles Manson was an MK Ultra patient because you knew Greg Fitzsimmons who knew Tom O'Neill, which is crazy.
所以在某些方面，我认为你正在引领学术界。
So, in some ways, I think you're leading academia.
比如新仙女木撞击假说，我记得是2007年首次提出的，现在确实开始逐渐被更多人接受了。
Like, I think the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis, which was, I think, presented in 2007 for the first time, is now really starting to become more of an accepted thing.
在此之前，路易斯·沃尔特·阿尔瓦雷斯提出恐龙灭绝是因为6600万年前的彗星撞击，当时人们也是这种态度。
Before that, it was, you know, Luis Walter Alvarez saying that the dinosaurs, you know, due to a comet impact 66,000,000 ago, that was a thing.
根本没人把他当回事。
Nobody took him seriously.
没错。
Right.
因此，与像扎希这样的守门人形成鲜明对比的是，有人称这是你有史以来最糟糕的播客。
And so, in the stark contrast between a gatekeeper like Zahi was, which some people call your worst podcast of all time.
那确实是最糟糕的。
It was the worst.
那确实是最糟糕的。
It was the worst.
我发现，我发现，我发现了一些重大重要的事情。
I discovered, I discovered, I discovered discovered major important things.
它们在网上吗？
Are they online?
不在。
No.
在我的书里。
In my book.
有这方面的照片吗？
Are there photos of this?
当然。
Of course.
在我的书里。
In my book.
就在我的书里。
It's in my book.
就在我的书里。
It's in my book.
如果你去看我的书，我不上网的。
If you go to my book, I don't go online.
我为什么要上网？
Why I have to go online?
我选择出书。
I go to my book.
你是不是在休斯顿这边介绍过我？
And you kinda introduce me here in Houston?
你说什么？
Excuse me?
我能在休斯顿介绍你吗？
Can I introduce you in Houston?
不行。
No.
我做不到。
I cannot.
为什么？
Why?
因为我非常忙。
Because I'm very busy.
好吧。
Okay.
很遗憾，我一点空闲时间都没有，佐伊。
I unfortunately, I don't have any free time, Zoe.
那是我们发布过最糟糕的作品。
It was the worst that we released.
有些糟糕的作品我们并没有发布。
There's been some that were bad that we didn't release.
是的。
Yeah.
但我想我们齐聚于此自有原因。
But I think I think we're all here for a reason.
我认为我们在此是为了体验某种奇异而深刻的事物，我们正在为某个重大事件做准备。
And I think I think we're here to experience something, something very strange and profound that and there's an event there's an event that we're building up to.
所以我认为这就是为什么现在如此关注信息解密。
And I think that's why there's this focus on disclosure.
这就是为什么这部纪录片影响如此巨大。
That's why this documentary hit so hard.
这就是为什么像马可·卢比奥、图尔西·加巴德和众议员卢娜这样的人会冒险发声。
That's why guys like Marco Rubio are sticking their neck out and Tulsi Gabbard and Rep Luna.
你知道吗，她也上过我的播客，她告诉我的一些事情简直让人震惊。
You know, she came on my podcast too, and she she was telling me some stuff that was just, like, mind blowing.
她真的让我去读了《以诺书》。
And she was she really got me to read the book of Enoch.
她说，你必须读那本书。
She's like, you gotta read that.
所以埃塞俄比亚正教经文里，我想总共包含了88卷圣经书卷。
So you have the Ethiopian Orthodox text, which has, I think, 88 books in the of the bible in total.
但在埃塞俄比亚正教经文中，这基本上算是圣经的一个主流原始版本。
But in the Ethiopian Orthodox text, it's basically kinda like a a mainline OG version of the Bible.
然后在四世纪某个时期，实际上有一群人聚集起来删除了某些书卷。
And then sometime in the fourth century, there was actually a group that came together and they removed certain books.
传说《启示录》实际上取代了《以诺书》的位置。
And the the story goes that Revelations actually had replaced Enoch.
这很有趣，因为当你全面观察时，听到这些人谈论的内容，再去阅读《以诺书》——那真是本令人震撼的书。
And so it's interesting because when you're looking kinda full circle on, you know, you hear the stuff that some of these people are talking about and then you see and you read the book of Enoch, which is a wild read.
好吗？
Okay?
然后你看看我们现代对天使和实体的描述，与以诺当时用他的语言和能力所看到并记载的内容相比。
And then you look at kind of what our modern day description is of what angels and entities are versus what Enoch was seeing and reporting in his language and ability at that time.
我只是觉得有很多东西会让你不禁要问：他们为什么要删除这些信息？
I just I think that there's a lot that brings you to then ask the question, well, why would they remove this information?
如果这确实是世界上最古老圣经的一部分，他们为什么要把它剔除？
If it's truly written in part of the oldest Bible in the world, why would they then take it out?
那本来完全可以被纳入宗教正典，但一些拉比不同意，因为它与《托拉》不符。
Then that could have easily been attached to the religious canon, but some rabbis disagreed with it because it didn't vibe with the Torah.
那就把它扔出去吧。
So let's chuck that one out.
但它和《以赛亚书》同属死海古卷的一部分，这非常有趣，因为韦斯·赫夫上我播客时解释说，他们在死海古卷中发现的《以赛亚书》与一千年后出现的《以赛亚书》内容完全一致。
But it's in the same lump of Dead Sea Scrolls as they have the book of Isaiah, which is really fascinating because Wes Huff, when he was on my podcast, explained to me that the book of Isaiah that they found on the Dead Sea Scrolls is verbatim the same as the book of Isaiah that was a thousand years more recent.
哇。
Woah.
A
A
一千年。
thousand years.
所以他们原本以为这是最古老的版本，结果后来发现的死海古卷版本比它还要早一千年，内容却一字不差。
So this was this was the oldest version that they thought was the oldest version, and then they found the Dead Sea Scrolls version, which was a thousand years older, verbatim.
太神奇了。
Fascinating.
太神奇了。
Fascinating.
《以诺书》也在其中。
And the Book of Enoch's in there.
就是这样。
There you go.
他们到底在说什么？
Like, what are they talking about?
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
你们在说什么？
What are you talking about?
守望者们降临人间，与人类结合，创造了一个巨人种族，这个种族摧毁并吞噬了一切。
The Watchers ers came came down, and they mated with humans, and they created a race that was a giant race that destroyed everything and consumed everything.
听起来像在说我们。
That sounds like us.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这不就是在说我们吗？
Doesn't that sound like us?
如果你是个脆弱、瘦小的外星生物，没有肌肉组织却有个大脑袋，而你创造了巨人族，你创造了橄榄球运动员，你创造了掠夺的维京人，你知道，他们乘船而来，见人就砍成碎片，这就是你描述他们的方式。
If you're some flimsy, tiny alien thing with no musculature and a large head, and you make giants, you you make football players, you make marauding Vikings, you know, that are just showing up in boats and hacking everybody to pieces, That's how you would describe them.
对。
Yep.
你会描述这些巨人摧毁了一切。
You would describe them giants destroyed everything.
是的。
Yes.
这全都是
It's it's all
非常离奇的事情，。
very weird stuff, man.
以诺本人经历了一次惊人的个人转变，他升入天堂，与上帝同行，然后变成了天使梅塔特隆。
Enoch himself goes through this amazing personal transformation where he goes up to heaven, he walks with God, and then he turns into Metatron, this angel.
很多人认为这是某种天界升天传统的一部分。
And a lot of people think that's part of kind of a celestial ascent tradition.
因此你既有诸天升阶的传统，也有各种其他传统，比如以西结的轮子。
So you have celestial ascent traditions and various traditions, and the wheels of Ezekiel.
或者，你知道，有些人认为在《使徒行传》中耶稣做到了这点，或是保罗身上有根刺让他得以见到神。
Or, you know, some people think in the book of Acts, Jesus does this, or Paul has the thorn in the flesh where he sees God.
所以，或许存在某种上升到这种状态又返回的机制，这里有个翻译功能——很难说清楚，你知道，一旦升天后就很难描述所见之物，就像《穆雷斯库》里那样。
And so, maybe there's something around ascending up into this state and coming back down, and there's there's a translation function where it's hard to say you know, once you've ascended, it's hard to say what you've seen, like the like in the Murrescu Yeah.
《不朽之钥》里描绘的，就像存在围绕它的搏击俱乐部之类的。
Immortality key, where the like, there's, like, a fight club around it or something.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这就是古代世界的搏击俱乐部。
This is the fight club of the ancient world.
那里发生的事，无人敢谈论，违者处死。
Whatever happened there, no one talked about it under penalty of death.
我的意思是，人们以凡人之躯前往厄琉息斯，根据幸存下来的少量证言（同样因保密违者处死的缘故），他们离开时都认为自己获得了永生。
I mean, people went to Eleusis as human beings, and from what little testimony survived, again, because it's secret under penalty of death, they they walked away thinking they were immortal.
这一切听起来真的非常疯狂。
This all sounds really insane.
我确信
I'm sure
但我的意思是，你会围绕它成立一个搏击俱乐部，因为一旦你开始谈论这些事情，没人会理解，也不会再把你当回事。
But I mean, you would have have a fight club around it because no one's gonna understand nor are they gonna take you seriously ever again if you start talking about these things.
是的。
Yes.
这就是我作为一个职业傻瓜的巨大优势所在。
That's where I have a great benefit in being a professional fool.
就像是
It's like
你知道吗
you know what
明白吗？
I mean?
听着。
Listen.
因为我并不是以教授身份进入播客圈的。
Because I didn't get into podcasting as a professor.
不像我之前在某个地方教书那样。
It's not like I was teaching something somewhere.
我进入这行是因为我是个喜剧演员。
I got into it because I was a comedian.
所以早期的播客节目，基本上就是桌上摆着个巨大的重力水烟枪，架着几个摄像头，差不多有一半的集数里我们都嗨到神志不清，根本不知道自己在说什么。
So most of the early podcast, it's literally just like this enormous gravity bong sitting on a table with webcams and, like, half the episodes, we were obliterated out of our minds, had no idea what we're talking about.
主要就是一群喜剧演员互相逗乐找乐子，因为我们整天都没事干。
It's mostly just comedians, and we're just making each other laugh and having fun because we have our whole day free.
对吧？
Right?
我们晚上才要工作。
We have to work at night.
我们白天工作晚上也工作。
We work at night during the day.
我们写笑话。
We write jokes.
我们聚在一起，然后找点其他事情做。
We hang out, and then we, you know, find other things to do.
我以前最喜欢做的事情之一就是做电台节目。
And one of my favorite things to do used to be to do radio.
就像在纽约做奥普和安东尼那样的优秀电台节目时，你会和一群喜剧演员混在一起，乐趣无穷。
Like, when you do a good radio show like Opie and Anthony back in New York, you'd hang around with a bunch of other comedians, and it'll be so much fun.
有时候我们会在休息室里做节目。
And then we would do it in the green room sometimes.
在做播客之前，我们最开始就是这样做的。
We started doing that first before we did the podcast.
我们当时用的平台我记得叫Justin TV。
What we would do was I think it was called Justin TV at the time.
嗯
Mhmm.
所以它就像是一个流媒体平台
And so it was like a streaming platform.
于是我的制片人布莱恩·雷德班德会在休息室里架好笔记本电脑，我们就在休息室里胡闹，因为我们总能互相逗乐，那里总是充满欢乐的氛围
So Brian, my producer, would set up a lap Brian Redband, would set up a laptop in the green room, and we would just fuck around in the green room because we were always making each other laugh, and it was always like a fun environment.
我们上台前总会做些傻事
We're getting silly before we're going on stage.
于是我们开始直播这些内容，后来我说，我们应该搞个节目，就坐着邀请喜剧演员们，像电台节目那样纯粹为了好玩
And so we started streaming that, and then I said, we should just do a thing where we just sit down and just have comics and just do it like a radio show and just for fun.
因为我不需要被严肃对待，可以尽情发挥任何想法
And because I don't have to be taken seriously, I can entertain any idea.
另外对我影响很大的还有亚特·贝尔
Also, another huge inspiration for me was Art Bell.
是啊
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
我超爱听Art Bell主持的《海岸到海岸》节目，尤其是那些来自‘夜之国度’的奇谈。
I'd love coast to coast with Art Bell from the kingdom of nigh.
我喜欢那个节目是因为我经常凌晨1点开车回喜剧俱乐部，而他总会连线一些自称时间旅行者的家伙。
I love that show because I used to go drive home to the Comedy Store at 01:00 in the morning, and he'd have some guy he had a time traveler line.
Art Bell这人来者不拒，就算有人说‘Art，我是狼人’他也会接茬。
So, like, Art Bell, like, let anybody say, Art, I'm a werewolf.
有意思。
Interesting.
详细说说。
Tell me more.
他从来不会说‘滚蛋吧，你个骗子’这种话。
Like, he didn't he didn't go, get the fuck out of here, bitch.
你根本不可能是狼人。
You're not a werewolf.
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