Talk Your Book：替代方案的替代方案

今天的《动物精神》节目由Halo赞助播出。

Today's animal spirits talk your book is brought to you by Halo.

访问haloinvesting.com，了解他们提供的各种结构化票据产品，以及他们全新的投资组合分析工具Aura。

Go to haloinvesting.com to learn more about all the structured note products they have there as long as their brand new portfolio analysis tool called Aura.

更多信息，请访问haloinvesting.com。

That's haloinvesting.com to learn more.

欢迎收听《动物精神》，一档关于市场、生活和投资的节目。

Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about markets, life, and investing.

迈克尔·巴特尼克和本·卡尔森将在这里聊聊他们正在读的、写的和看的内容。

Join Michael Batnick and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing, and watching.

迈克尔和本的所有观点仅代表他们个人，不代表Ritholtz财富管理公司的立场。

All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ritholtz Wealth Management.

本播客仅供信息参考，不应作为任何投资决策的依据。

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any investment decisions.

Ritholtz财富管理公司的客户可能持有本播客中讨论的证券头寸。

Clients of Ritholtz Wealth Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.

欢迎收听《动物精神》，我是迈克尔和本。

Welcome to animal spirits with Michael and Ben.

迈克尔，我们能把这称为结构化票据的杰文斯悖论吗？

Michael, can we call it Jevin's paradox for structured notes?

因为所有这些新ETF、缓冲产品和设定收益产品，你可能会以为它们会压缩结构化票据的市场空间。

Because all the is that is that working or All these new ETFs and buffers and defined outcomes and such, you'd think it would constrain the actual structured note space.

但对于像Halo这样的平台来说，它其实还在增长。

But for a place like Halo, it's actually it's grown still.

你刚才完全进入了AI思维模式。

You just went full on AI brain.

我喜欢这样。

I love it.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这样行吗？

Does that work?

我很喜欢。

I love it.

太棒了。

It's great.

我们跟Halo合作好几年了，他们一直努力让结构化票据产品对理财顾问和投资者来说更容易理解，因为当你深入到这些产品背后的衍生品时，确实会变得很复杂。

We've talked to Halo for a number of years now, and they've tried to make the the structured note product space easier to digest for advisors, investors because it is it it can be a complicated place when you get into the, like, the derivatives that underlie these things.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得人们明白这些策略想达到什么目的。

I think people understand what the strategies are trying to accomplish.

这比解释它们背后的东西要容易得多。

That's easy to explain than what underlies them.

而且我在节目里说过，AI非常适合用来帮助理解这些。

And as I mentioned on the show, that AI is perfect for this, for helping understand.

等等。

Wait.

这里文件好多。

There's lot of paperwork here.

要理解的东西太多了。

It's a lot to understand.

这对我有什么用？

What is this doing for me?

我觉得AI在这方面能帮大忙。

I think AI can help a lot here.

这就像给投资写代码，继续用AI来打比方。

It's like kinda like coding for investing to keep the AI analogy going.

用他们开发的软件来理解不同的潜在结果是一回事，但能把你的投资组合围绕几个产品来构建，看看它们如何与整体配置融合，这真的非常酷。

It was one thing to use whatever software they built to understand the different potential outcomes, but to be able to wrap that wrap your portfolio around a couple of products and see how they integrate with the rest of the pie is very, very cool.

对。

Yeah.

所以他们在展会上聊到了一个新工具。

So they built a new tool that we talked about at the show.

我们采访了马特·拉德戈夫斯基。

We talked to Matt Radgowski.

他是Halo的首席执行官，我们之前也采访过他。

He is the CEO at Halo, and we talked to him before.

所以我们了解了全部情况，他们的顾问如何使用这个工具，你知道，投资组合分析，这是个大事，我觉得AI会帮助很多顾问和他们的客户更好地理解，比如，这里到底发生了什么？

So we get it all, what's going on, how their advisors are using this, the, you know, portfolio analytics, which is a big thing, which I think AI is gonna help just a lot of advisors and their clients just better understand, like, what is going on here?

归因是什么？

What the attribution?

这会如何改变事情？

How does this change things?

他们显然也在这方面扮演重要角色。

They're obviously taking a big part in this too.

所以这就是我们对Halo的马特的采访。

So here's our talk with Matt from Halo.

Matt，欢迎再次来到我们的节目。

Matt, welcome back to the show.

谢谢。

Thank you.

很感谢你们再次邀请我。

Appreciate you having me again.

当然。

Of course.

好的。

All right.

你们已经来过我们节目好几次了。

So you guys have been on the show a bunch.

我给你机会重新介绍一下自己，但也许我先说点别的。

I'll give you the opportunity to reintroduce yourself, but maybe I'll lead with this.

衍生品收入领域在理财顾问市场中增长非常迅速。

The derivative income space has been a huge grower in the advisor marketplace.

缓冲、叠加，很多以前只属于结构化市场的工具，你们就在这个领域里。

Buffers, overlays, a lot of the things that used to be exclusively home to the structured marketplace, which you guys play in.

现在有人可能会觉得存在一些互相蚕食的情况，你们可能会因为这种新的流动性包装把这些市场和工具带进来而遇到困难，但我们已经进入了后蚕食时代。

Now one might think that there's some cannibalization going on, that you guys have struggled as this new liquid wrapper has brought these markets these tools to the market, but we live in a post cannibalization world.

蛋糕一直在变大，每个人似乎都有更多的钱，一切都在增长。

The pie just keeps growing and everybody somehow, there's more money and everything is just growing.

我说得对吗？

Do I have that right?

对。

Yeah.

完全正确。

But 100% correct.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

当然。

Absolutely.

我们非常喜欢。

We we love it.

你知道，这个领域现在受到越来越多的关注，不管是自动赎回型ETF、期权覆盖策略，还是结构化票据，确实吸引了更多的理财顾问和他们所管理的投资者参与进来。

You know, the attention being drawn to the space, right, whether it's, you know, the the auto callable ETFs, option overlay strategies, of course, structured notes, know, really is bringing more advisors and the investors that they manage money for to the table.

对吧？

Right?

所以坦白说，我们很欢迎这种关注。

And so we love the attention, quite frankly.

我们认为这是正确的产品组合，我这里是泛指。

We think it's the right product set, and I'll use that generically.

对吧？

Right?

你提到的那些产品，每一个都有自己独特的特点。

You know, the the products that you you mentioned there each have unique characteristics.

它们在投资组合中各有各的位置，但正如你所说，我们并没有看到互相蚕食的情况。

They have unique places in the portfolio, but to your point, we've not seen the cannibalization.

实际上，我们看到的是相反的情况。

Actually, we've seen the opposite.

我们的交易量还在持续增长。

Our volumes continue to grow.

客户的钱包份额也在不断增加。

Wallet share continues to grow.

所以，尽管来吧。

So bring it on.

对吧？

Right?

说实话，我也会这么想，因为这些产品确实引起了很多人极大的兴趣。

I would have frankly thought the same thing because these products are getting a ton of interest from people.

你觉得这很大程度上是不是因为顾问的使用？

Is is it just do you think a big part of it is just advisor use?

是不是因为我们有七千多万婴儿潮一代，他们拥有大量财富，正在寻找更多这样的产品？

Is it because we have these, whatever, 70,000,000 plus baby boomers and they have a ton of wealth and they're looking for more products like this.

你觉得这些结构性产品为什么能保持韧性？

What do you think is the reason for the resiliency of these structural products?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得是多种因素结合，包括投资者行为上的长期趋势，他们追求确定性的结果，退休后有更多资金投入使用，对吧。

I'd say a combination of secular trend in terms of investor behavior, looking for definition of outcome security as more money, right, is being put to use post retirement.

我认为对安全性的需求在增长。

I think the need for security there grows.

同时，新一代投资者，也就是更年轻的投资者，也早早表现出对保护的兴趣。

I think the newer investor though as well, the younger investor, is seeing earlier on their interest in protection there as well.

所以，既有长期趋势，又有产品的可及性。

So you have just, you know, secular trends, and then you have access to the product.

对吧？

Right?

所以通过像Halo这样的平台以及其他平台，购买和管理的便捷性，我觉得非常重要。

So the the ease of purchase and management through platforms like Halo and others, I think, is is very important.

对吧？

Right?

所以这是技术、渠道和投资者需求三者结合的结果。

So it's a combination of technology and access, investor demand all coming together.

而且当顾问能够更容易地评估、购买和管理这些产品时，从故事的角度来说，这为客户带来了独特的东西。

And when you can evaluate, buy, and manage the products easier as an advisor, it's something unique, right, from a story perspective to bring back to your client.

我认为所有这些市场力量确实造就了我们所看到的这种韧性。

I think all those market forces have really created that resiliency that we're seeing there.

好的。

Alright.

我很想知道Halo最近有什么新动态。

I'd love to know what is new in the world of Halo these days.

你们最近在忙些什么？

What are you guys what's keeping you busy?

对。

Yeah.

所以，你知道，我刚才提到了技术，我觉得技术和分析，或者说为顾问提供的决策支持，绝对是至关重要的。

So we are you know, I mentioned technology, and I think technology and analysis, I'll say decision support for the adviser, we think is absolutely critical.

我们非常兴奋。

We are super excited.

我们推出了一款叫 Aura 的工具，就是 Halo Aura。

We've launched a tool called Aura, so Halo Aura.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我们的营销天才就在那里。

You know, our marketing genius is there.

但实际上，Aura 的理念是展示结构化票据对客户投资组合的影响。

But, really, the the idea of Aura is to illustrate the impact of structured notes on a client's portfolio.

所以，与其抽象地决定，对吧，这个增长票据、收益票据、保护水平对投资组合有什么影响，我们现在可以实证地展示，对吧，这就是影响的改善，或者坦白说，如果它没有显示出价值，我们也会向客户展示这一点。

So instead of kind of trying to decide in the abstract, right, what impact is this growth note, this income note, level of protection, what impact is it having on the portfolio, we can now show empirically, right, here is the impact improvement, or quite frankly, if it doesn't show its value, we'll illustrate that to the client.

但比如对预期收益的影响、负收益频率、能产生的收入，对吧？

But things like impact on expected return, negative return frequency, income that can be generated, Right?

你把当前的投资组合交给Aura。

You've you give Aura your current portfolio.

你在那个组合里加上票据，我们就会通过一个FINRA审核过的输出结果来展示给你。

You add notes to that portfolio, and we will actually show you through a FINRA reviewed output.

这就是基于那个票据配置，对你作为投资者的影响。

Here is the impact for you as an investor based on that note allocation.

所以你可以把它放在那种TAMP投资提案的背景下考虑。

And so you think about it in that kind of, you know, TAMP investment proposal context.

对吧？

Right?

这样你就能真正向客户展示你为什么买这些产品。

So you can actually show the client why you're buying what you're buying.

你可以进入实验室，根据客户的目标，找出最适合他们的结构类型。

You can go into the lab and figure out what structure types are best for your client given their objectives.

所以我们非常兴奋能把它推向市场。

And so we're super excited to get it into market.

我们其实已经推出了，而且你知道，我不想从开发角度过多谈论AI的力量，但你知道，我们确实能够快速迭代。

We've actually just launched already, and this will you know, I don't wanna stray into the power of AI from a development perspective, but, you know, we've been able to really iterate quickly.

我们刚刚推出了这个工具的第二版，它从输入和分析，发展到真正让顾问能够分享我的目标是什么，我的投资期限是什么，我对市场的看法是什么。

We actually just launched the version two of the tool, which moves from input and analysis to actual allowing the adviser to share what is my objective, what is my horizon, what is my outlook on the market?

然后我们会开始以更自动化的方式为他们整理笔记。

And we'll actually begin to curate notes for them in a more automated way.

所以对此非常兴奋。

So super excited about it.

你比我先想到了这个。

You kinda got that before I did.

我本来想问这些产品，因为它们有规则，有很多东西要读，对吧？

I was gonna ask these products because they have rules, there's a lot of stuff to read, there's a lot right?

有很多细则，非常适合AI来处理，对吧，来整理它们，把它们组合起来，而且我想，如果有人带着这样的投资组合来，你可以分析它们，但如果你说，嘿。

There's a lot of fine print that's perfect for AI, right, to to sort through, put them together, and and I guess the thing is if someone comes in with a portfolio of these, you can you can analyze them, but also if you say, hey.

我们把这三四种不同的产品放在一起。

We're putting these three or four different products together.

这就是输出结果。

Here's what the output is.

是这个意思吗？

Is that the idea?

这看起来确实是AI的完美用武之地，对吧？

That it it does seem like a perfect marriage for AI to use this stuff?

当然。

Absolutely.

对吧？

Right?

你想想看，有多少种组合，比如标的、保护水平、期限等等这些，以前你得靠感觉、靠猜，或者走捷径才能做出产品设计。

And you think about the the number of, you know, combinations, right, whether it's, underlier, protection level, duration, all these things, you used to have to kind of, you know, feel your way or guess your way or use shortcuts to get to, you know, product design.

你给AI赋能。

You power AI.

对吧？

Right?

你可以重新计算这些组合，真正从分析的角度来决定，这是不是合适的产品？

You can actually calculate again the combinations of those things and really, you know, again, analytically decide, is it the right product?

对吧？

Right?

我们不希望答案总是，你知道的，配置到这个票据上。

We don't want the answer to always be, you know, allocate to this note.

对吧？

Right?

我们要确保它是客观的，但确实，如你所说，真正让我们能够分析海量的数据和信息，为顾问总结出来，然后以打包的形式呈现，我们认为这会真正改变这些票据在客户投资组合中的配置方式。

We wanna make sure it's objective, but it does, you know, to your point, then really allow us to to to analyze massive amounts of data and information, sum that up for the adviser, and then present it in a packaged form that we think, again, will really change the way these note your notes are allocated to within client portfolios.

我觉得你们在结构化市场做的事情中，最有趣的一点是技术层面，让用鼠标点几下就能看到各种不同的策略变得非常容易。

One of the things that I think is really interesting about what you guys have done in the structured marketplace is the technological aspect of it, making it really easy to with the clicks with the few clicks of a mouse, see all sorts of different strategies.

你可以做下行保护，这显然是一种保守的做法。

You can do downside protection, which is obviously a conservative approach.

你可以用一些比较激进的策略。

You can do you could like there are aggressive strategies that you can use.

对吧？

Right?

那跟我们说说，用这个平台都能做哪些不同的事情。

So talk about all the sorts of different things that you can do with the platform.

对。

Yeah.

比如参与率。

So participation.

对吧？

Right?

你刚才提到，如果你关注的是增长和上行空间，那我们经常讨论的是用结构化票据来做股票修复策略。

You talked about if your focus is on growth upside, and so, you know, we we often talk about equity repair strategies with structured notes.

所以当市场出现一些波动，你想修复投资组合中股票部分的时候，你可以寻求更高的参与率。

And so when there's been some dislocation in the market and you're looking to to repair, right, that equity side of your portfolio, you can seek out higher participation.

所以你可以选择你的广泛基础标的，不管是指数ETF，还是个股，如果你愿意的话，实际上你可以获得超过100%的参与率。

So you pick your broad based underlier, whether it's an index ETF, you know, individual security if you'd like, and you can actually have participation rates that go above that 100% level.

所以如果你再次试图在你的投资组合中实现增长，比如说，回到我们在Aura中讨论的那个工具，如果你对市场持看涨观点，你实际上可以通过结构化票据的上行参与来利用这个看涨观点。

And so if you are, again, trying to generate growth in your portfolio, if for instance you know, back to the tool we were talking about in Aura, if you have a bullish outlook on the market, you can, in fact, capitalize on that bullish outlook by taking upside participation through the structured notes.

所以它真的是，你知道，一个非常，你知道，它是投资产品中的瑞士军刀，对吧，因为你可以满足，对吧，你当时根据对市场的看法所设定的投资目标，并且相当好地定制那个解决方案。

So it's it truly is a, you know, a very you know, it's that Swiss army knife of investment products, right, in that you can you can meet, right, the investment objective that you have in that moment given your view of markets, and tailor that solution pretty nicely.

所以从心态的角度来看，这真的是试图让顾问明白，你知道，投资组合中总有票据的空间，你使用的票据类型。

And so it's really, you know, from a mindset perspective trying to get the adviser to see, you know, there is always room for the note inside the portfolio, the type of note you use.

对吧？

Right?

而且，迈克尔，正如你所说，它的特征实际上应该随着时间而变化，考虑到目标、表现、展望等等所有这些因素。

And to your point, Michael, the characteristics of it should in fact change over time given objective, performance, outlook, all those things.

所以你说到了股票修复策略。

So you said equity repair strategy.

请多告诉我一些关于这个的内容。

Tell me a little bit more about that.

这个我还真没听说过。

That's a new one to me.

比如说，你持有某个资产类别或某个板块，要么你对它特别看好，要么它已经让你亏了不少。

Say you have a certain asset class or sector exposure where you you either have an extremely bullish outlook or you've had some negative return impact.

对吧？

Right?

均值回归理论认为，如果它会回到长期的历史表现水平，那么你就有机会通过配置一种既有一定下行风险保护、又有更高上行参与率的票据，来修复你之前遭遇的股票下跌。

So mean reversion would say, if it's gonna go back to its longer term historical performance, there's a possibility to repair that equity down that down draw you've had by allocating to a note that has some level of downside risk management, but also has a higher upside participation.

所以你就是用这种票据来修复股票的下行，这就是“修复”的含义。

So you're repairing that equity downturn through the use of the note, hence the repair.

我也很好奇顾问们还在用哪些其他策略。

I'm curious about some of the other strategies that advisors are using too.

很多人来找我们的时候，都会提到一个情况，就是“我手里有一个高度集中的仓位”。

One of the ones that we've had a ton of people come to us with is just, hey, I have this concentrated position.

我想继续持有它。

I wanna stay in it.

我有点担心这个。

I'm a little nervous about it.

你们有哪些结构化产品和期权能帮到这种情况的人？

How do you have structured products and options that can help someone with that type of situation?

因为这是我们现在经常遇到的情况，人们知道，听着，我知道把这么多财富放在这一个仓位上风险很大，但我想聪明地管理风险，或者怎么卖，或者，你知道，我不想太早退出。

Because that's something that we're seeing all the time now, where people know, listen, I know that it's risky to have so much of my wealth in this one position, but I wanna be intelligent about how I manage the risk around it or how I sell it or how, you know, I don't wanna get out too soon.

这对人们来说是个很大的担忧。

It's a huge worry for people.

比如，他们不想做错选择，对吧？

Like, they don't wanna make the wrong choice, Right?

那你们是怎么帮这种情况的人的？

So how do you guys help someone in that type of situation?

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，这挺有意思的。

You know, it's funny.

有一段时间，顾问们带着这个挑战来找我们，就是这个问题。

We had, for a period of time, advisors came to us with that very challenge, that very problem.

嗯，我们把它叫做一个机会。

Well, we'll call it an opportunity.

对吧？

Right?

如果你在一个头寸上有足够的集中财富，那你可能处境还不错。

If you have enough concentrated wealth at a position, you're probably at a in a decent spot.

而且，我们一次又一次听到的问题是，嘿。

And, you know, the question we got time and time again was, hey.

我能不能用结构化票据来管理这种集中风险？

Can I use the structured note to manage that concentration risk?

坦白说，简短的回答是，用票据不行，对吧，因为如果你买入标的，你就是在加重它。

And the short answer, quite frankly, with the note is no, right, in that if you're buying the underlier, you're compounding it.

对吧？

Right?

但我们能做的，是通过票据和其他工具的组合，帮你达到一个不错的状态。

But what we can do is using notes and a combination of other tools get you to a good spot.

所以我们进入市场，寻找合作伙伴来帮我们处理这类问题。

And so we went out there into the market and looked for partners to help us manage those types of issues.

我们最终想出了两种策略，可以用来提供帮助。

And we came up with two strategies that that we can use to to help.

一种是可变预付远期，对吧，你可以利用基于衍生品的策略，有效地为那个头寸设置一个上下限。

So there's the variable prepaid forward, right, and so where you can use derivative based strategies to effectively collar that position.

我们与摩根士丹利有合作，在解决这个问题上非常有效。

We have a partnership with Morgan Stanley that's been extremely impactful on that on that very issue.

所以，先确定股票。

And so identify the stock.

对吧？

Right?

你可以设置你的保护水平，当然，这会限制你的上涨空间，但随之而来的是，你可以用那个头寸作为抵押来借款。

You can put you put your protection level in, cap your upside, of course, but what comes along with that is the ability to borrow against that position.

所以实际上你可以释放出资金，然后我们通常会利用这笔释放出来的资金，通过结构性票据购买一个更加多元化的投资策略，对吧，这样你就有下行保护了，但你现在是在一个广泛的指数里，而不是单一的集中持仓。

So you can actually free up capital, and then what we tend to do is with that free up, you purchase a more diversified investment strategy using structured notes, right, so you have that downside protection, but you're now in a broad based index instead of a single concentrated position.

所以可变预付远期对我们来说是一个很好的补充。

And so the variable prepaid forward has been a great add to our suite.

我们称之为高级财富解决方案。

We call this our advanced wealth solutions.

除了结构性票据，通过与摩根士丹利的合作，你还可以提供可变预付远期。

And so beyond the structured notes and through partnership with Morgan Stanley, you can provide variable pre buy variable prepaid forwards.

然后我们还有一家叫Deriviti的公司合作，这家公司，我会说，是针对那些余额较小的客户，他们也有集中持股的问题，但想在咨询账户里使用基于期权的覆盖策略。

And then we have a partnership with a firm called Deriviti, which would be, I'll say, for smaller balance clients that have concentrated stock but still have that same issue that wanna use an options based overlay within that within an advisory account.

所以我们有两个配套工具，配合结构性票据来管理这种集中财富。

And so we have two companion tools to the structured note to manage that concentrated wealth.

然后，一旦你解决了集中度问题，我们还是会依靠结构性票据来提供分散化和下行风险保护。

And then again, we look to the structured note to provide that diversification with downside risk once you've addressed that concentration issue there.

马特，关于可变预付远期，我有几个问题。

Matt, have a few questions on the variable prepaid forwards.

本提到，随着大家的财富在谷歌、苹果以及其他这些巨头公司里大幅膨胀，这对顾问们来说一直是个非常热门的话题。

Ben mentioned that's been a very hot topic for advisors as people's wealth has ballooned in Google and Apple and and the rest of these these giant names.

好的。

So alright.

假设一个客户在苹果有1000万美元。

A client has $10,000,000 in in in Apple.

他们的投资组合总值是1300万美元。

They have a $13,000,000 portfolio.

所以很明显，他们对单一股票的风险敞口非常大，他们想要分散投资。

So, obviously, they are heavily, heavily overexposed to a single name, and they want to diversify.

你能给我们讲讲这是怎么运作的吗？

Can you walk us through how this works?

所以他们借款，释放出700万美元的现金。

So they they borrow, they get 7,000,000 in cash freed up.

他们的收益上限被封顶了。

Their upside is capped.

他们的下行风险得到了保护。

Their downside is protected.

然后呢？

And what?

然后他们开始逐步偿还。

Then they start to pay down.

他们开始逐步卖出持有的苹果股票，或者类似的情况。

They start to, like, sell down the individual holding Apple in this example or whatever the case may be.

那接下来是怎么运作的呢？

Like, how does it work on a go forward basis?

对。

Yeah.

所以实际上，从长远来看，坦白说，这是一种风险缓解策略。

So really on a go forward basis, it is you know, quite frankly, it's a risk mitigation strategy.

对吧？

Right?

因为你实际上，就像你提到的，你是在设定一个下限和一个上限，对吧，就是关于你交付的股票，然后你设定了这两个参数。

Because you are in fact you know, like you mentioned, you're creating a floor and you're creating a cap, right, you know, in terms of the shares you deliver there, and and you set those two parameters.

而且，你知道，它真正的作用是，当然，这里面有税务方面的操作空间。

And, you know, really what it does is, know, it allows you to there's a tax play there, of course.

对吧？

Right?

你延迟缴税，因为你并没有卖出那个证券，直到那个最终的未来日期，当那个VPF到期，你拿到现金。

You defer the taxes on that because you're not, you know, you're not selling that security until that final future date when you allow for that VPF to expire, and you get the cash.

对吧？

Right?

所以你可以按SOFR利率借款。

So you can borrow at Sofer.

在某些情况下，你借款的利率是相当有吸引力的，目前通过摩根士丹利或者其他提供这些服务的机构。

In some cases, the the the the rates at which you can borrow against are pretty attractive, you know, currently through, you know, through Morgan Stanley or there's others that provide them.

那只是我们的合作伙伴。

That's just our partner there.

但基本上，它能让你在设定的时间段内锁定上涨和下跌的空间。

But, basically, what it allows you to do is, again, lock in that that upside and downside for a stated period of time.

VPF的典型期限是十三到十八个月，之后如果你愿意，可以继续展期。

Your typical duration of the of the of the VPF is thirteen to eighteen months, and then you can you can roll it forward if you so choose.

你不需要一次性还清全部余额。

You don't have to pay the entire balance back.

你可以再借一笔，或者滚动合同？

You could take out another you can roll the contract?

完全正确。

That's exactly correct.

对。

Yep.

你可以把合同往后滚动。

You can roll that contract forward.

顾问们通常都是这么做的吗？

Is that what advisors are typically doing?

或者我敢肯定，肯定有无数种不同的用法。

Or I'm sure I'm sure there's a million different uses.

这正是他们现在在做的。

That is exactly what they're doing.

他们通常就是，你知道的，把那份合同往后滚动。

They're more you know, normally they're rolling that, you know, they're that contract forward.

这个的成本是多少？

What's the cost of this?

因为天下没有免费的午餐。

Because there's no free lunch.

你提到过，你必须得为这个付钱。

You mentioned like this, that you have to you have to literally pay for this.

所以这是一个很棒的工具。

So it's it's a it's a great tool.

你可以从你现有的股份中释放流动性。

You get to unlock liquidity from your existing shares.

你并没有完全押注在一只对你很好的股票上，谁知道未来会怎样，但这是有代价的。

You're not all the way in on a stock that has treated you very well and who knows what the future holds, but there's there's a price.

代价是什么？

What is it?

你说的是Sofer Plus？

You said Sofer Plus?

通常，是的，就借款利率而言。

Usually, yeah, to you in terms of the borrowing rate.

对。

Yep.

就证券本身而言。

On the security itself.

我很好奇现在人们还在用哪些其他策略，因为显然我们处于牛市。

I'm curious what other strategies people are are administering these days because obviously, we're in a bull market.

对吧？

Right?

现在情况不错。

Things are going well.

收益率现在稍微高了一点。

Yields are a little higher now.

是不是因为行情好，大家都想加大油门，觉得一切顺利，愿意冒险？

Is it are people trying to put their foot on the gas pedal more because, hey, things are going great.

还是说大家其实有点紧张，各种情况都有？

I'm willing to take risk, or is it people are nervous, a little all of the above?

从你的Halo客户来看，现在的情绪怎么样，他们最近都在做什么？

Where is the sentiment check-in terms of your Halo clients and what they're trying to do these days?

对。

Yeah.

这真的很有意思，我笑是因为真的是什么情况都有。

It's so funny, and I'm smiling because it literally is the gamut.

我从来没见过——好吧，也不能说从来没见过。

It's I've never seen well, I shouldn't say never.

我们很少见到，或者说我很少见到，顾问们的观点如此分歧的情况。

Rarely do have we seen or have I seen a a situation where the adviser base is so disparate in terms of their points of view?

我的意思是，有些顾问是全力投入的。

I mean, we have advisors that are all in.

对吧？

Right?

他们相信技术进步、人工智能以及其他因素会推动未来长期增长。

The promise of technology advancement, AI, other things that are gonna fuel this growth into the distant future.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们全力以赴。

So they are pedal to the floor.

你提到了一些增长策略。

You mentioned some of those growth strategies.

但另一方面，也有一部分人非常担心估值和当前的市场状况。

And then you do have the other side, though, where you have a constituency that is super nervous about valuations and where we are today.

从我的角度来看，最让我兴奋的产品使用方面的重大进展之一是，以前我们在结构化票据方面的主要策略是偏向收益型的。

From my perspective, one of the biggest advancements that I'm excited about as far as use of product is we used to have, in terms of predominance of strategy was in the structured notes side was on the income side.

所以基本上就是最差篮子收益票据来产生收益。

So really worst of basket income notes to generate yield.

我们确实看到了产品组合的多样化，现在有绝对回报票据，还有纯增长票据。

We've really seen diversification of the product set into the absolute return notes, into the pure growth notes.

所以现在你看到的是，顾问可以根据自己对市场的看法或者客户对市场的看法来操作，有些情况下，同一个顾问，面对两个不同的客户，一个买高保护的收益策略，另一个买相当激进的增长策略。

So you're seeing now the ability for an advisor, whether it's their own view of the market or their client's view of the market, some of them would have situations in which same adviser, two different clients, some buying highly protected income strategies, others buying, you know, pretty aggressive growth.

所以，不是要回到光环，但对我们来说，给顾问一个表达自己观点的能力，比如，嘿。

And so not to bring it back to aura, but for us, right, like giving the adviser the ability to say, hey.

看。

Look.

表达你的观点，对吧，以市场展望、担忧、机会等形式。

Express your view, right, in the form of market outlook, concern, etcetera, opportunity.

我们会根据这些给你推荐合适的票据，你知道，可能比较匹配的。

We'll come back to you with notes, you know, that might be of of fit.

所以我们确实看到顾问在产品使用上的行为发生了变化，这让我们很受鼓舞。

And so we're really seeing a a shift in the adviser behavior in product utilization, which is really encouraging to us.

但从更广泛的市场角度来看，我们的观点可能和我们的顾问客户数量一样多。有些人非常兴奋，认为人工智能会推动未来十年的增长。

But just more broadly from a market perspective, we have probably as many opinions as we have, number of adviser clients, in that, you know, some are some are super excited and think, you know, again, AI is gonna fuel fuel the next ten years of growth.

其他人则从估值角度持怀疑态度。

Others are, you know, just, you know, skeptical from a valuation perspective.

好消息是，我们能够同时帮助这两类人，让他们既能继续参与市场，又能管理风险。

And the good news is we can we can help them both out in a way that allows them to continue to participate but but manage that risk.

显然，这取决于具体情况。

Obviously, it depends.

我敢肯定这方面没有数据。

I'm sure there's no data on this.

我确实好奇，那些过去五年一直在购买下行保护并限制上行空间的投资者。

I do wonder the investor that has spent the last five years buying downside protection and capping their upside.

我想知道这些人现在是不是已经深陷其中，无法自拔了。

I wonder if that person at this point is just pot committed.

听我说。

And listen.

比如说，你把下行风险控制在15%，上行收益封顶在7%，那你肯定没问题。

If you've let's say that you cap your downside at at 15%, you cap your upside at 7%, I'm sure you're fine.

对吧？

Right?

那种比较紧张的人，能拿到7%的收益，应该就很开心了，不管具体是多少。

That type of person that's nervous is probably very happy getting that 7%, whatever it is.

但我确实在想，到了某个时候，这显然是周期后期了，迈克尔。

But I do wonder at some point, and this is obviously late cycle Michael.

哦，这还挺押韵的。

Oh, that rhymes.

说到这儿，如果到了某个时候他们想，好吧。

Talking here, at if at some point they're like, alright.

我不再需要这个了。

I don't need this anymore.

不再需要下行保护了。

No more downside protection.

我受够了限制我的上涨空间。

I'm sick of capping my upside.

那可能正是他们最需要保护的时候，结果却适得其反。

That's probably the very moment at which they need it most, and it turns against it.

对吧？

Right?

我不是在开玩笑，但还有一点我觉得非常重要，也是我们为什么在教育和工具上投入这么多，以及围绕产品的那些东西，就是为了尽可能确保顾问能准确地向客户传达正在发生的情况，确保预期一致，这样当结果出来时，他们就能自信地将其与没有保护的产品版本进行对比，让客户来做决定。

I mean, not to not to be tongue in cheek about it, but the other thing too, though, I think that's really important, and again, why we are investing so much in the education and the tools and the you know, that surround the product is as sure as we can be that that advisor is communicating to the client exactly what is happening and that there's an expectation alignment, and therefore when those results are seen, they can confidently juxtapose with the unprotected version of that product and allow for the client to decide.

我觉得只要你再次，当然你可以过于保守，但我确实认为，只要客户以正确的方式被带入这个过程，理解他们放弃的是什么，但为了那份舒适和安全，我认为整体上投资者行为正在朝那个方向发展。

I think as long as you again are You can be overly conservative for sure, but I do think that with the client brought on that journey the right way, understanding what they're giving up, but for that comfort and security, again, I think just investor behavior in general is moving towards that.

我愿意放弃，而且有研究，虽然我现在记不住具体数据，但那些研究谈到了投资者群体心态的转变，愿意为了下行保护而放弃上涨空间。

I'm willing to give up, and there are studies out there, and I don't have them at my fingertips, but that have talked about that sentiment shift around investor base willing to give up upside for that downside protection.

我认为顾问绝对必须准备好应对这个问题，而我们团队和工具的工作就是告诉他们：看，我们很乐意展示你放弃的是什么。

I think it's something that the advisor absolutely has to be ready to address, and it's the job of our team and our tools to say, Look, we are comfortable showing what you're giving up.

天下没有免费的午餐。我们很乐意展示你放弃了什么，但同样，为了那份安心，你知道，万一发生灾难性的事情，你口袋里还有那份保障。

There's no free launch, Comfortable showing what you're giving up, but again, for that comfort of knowing, look, if something catastrophic was to happen, you still have that protection in your pocket.

我之前提到的这些产品，有一个很酷的地方就是，你可以根据每个客户的不同性格来定制它们。

One thing that's cool about these products that I spoke about earlier was how you're able to customize them to each different client's personality.

话虽如此，规模化也有它的道理，能帮你节省时间。

That being said, there is something to to be said about scale, leveraging your time.

而且，如果某个产品对一位客户有效，那很可能对至少另外几位客户也有效。

And if something is good for one client, it's probably good for at least a few more.

聊聊运营层面吧，它怎么和我们的记录系统对接，比如，先从托管方说起吧。

Talk about the operational aspect of this, how it connects with our systems of record, whether it's the I guess let's start with the custodians as an example.

对。

Yeah.

我们和托管方有直接的连接。

And so we have direct connectivity to the custodians.

我们也可以通过市场上的聚合工具来获取账户信息，把这些细节都带入Halo，这样你就有了一个集中的控制中心。

We also have access through aggregation tools that are out there in the market so we can bring those account details into Halo, you have that centralized control center.

所以基本信息包括生命周期、现金流、到期日、赎回观察、赎回可能性、接近上限的可能性。

So the basic information around life cycle, cash flows, maturity dates, call observations, likelihood of call, likelihood of breach approaching cap.

我们的控制中心，我们的生命周期管理，让顾问可以一目了然地看到所有这些信息。

Our control center, our life cycle brings that all to the fingertips of the advisor, and so they can see it all there.

那么我们在哪些方面做了投资，让它变得更简单呢？

Now where have we invested in to make it even easier?

在技术上有几个方面，对吧？

There's a couple things technologically, right?

那个聚合服务，让你能轻松地看到所有账户的详细信息，这很棒。

So that aggregation service, you can start to see all those details in an easy way across your accounts is great.

我们推出了很多管理工具，你可以看到客户投资组合中需要投入运作的现金余额。

We've launched a lot of management tools, you can start to see cash balances that need to be put to work within your client portfolios.

你可以设置关于产品类型集中度、发行方集中度的规则。

You can set rules around product type concentration, issuer concentration.

所以让现金流管理更简单，是我们平台本身大力投资的方向。

So making that cash flow management easier is something that we've invested heavily with on the platform itself.

回到TAMP的比喻，再平衡和再配置工具，我们在平台上投入了很多，让这个过程变得容易得多。

And so going back to the TAMP analogy, rebalancing and reallocation tools, we've invested in the platform such that we're making that process a heck of a lot easier.

然后从那里，你也有，我想上次我来的时候我们聊过一些关于独立管理账户的事情。

And then from there, you do have as well we've we've talked I think on the last last time I was on, we talked a bit about the separately managed accounts.

所以我们确实有渠道。

So we do have access.

如果你喜欢这个产品但不想再自己打理了，你知道，我们有专业的资金经理可以雇来帮你做，或者现在很多大型RIA客户的做法是，他们的首席投资官实际上在构建SNA，可以在他们的客户群中使用。

If you love the product and just don't wanna deal with it anymore, you know, we do have professional money managers you can hire to do that for you, or what's happening in our large RIA clients today is their CIO is effectively building SNAs that can be used across their client base.

所以这算是票据决策的集中化。

So kind of centralization of note decision making.

所以你们显然会接触到带着更传统投资组合来的客户，然后说，嘿，结构化票据占5%、10%、20%，不管多少。

So you guys obviously have people come to you with more traditional portfolios and, hey, structured notes make up 5%, 10%, 20%, whatever it is.

那这怎么和你们的Aura系统整合，来向人们展示他们从中得到什么，以及它如何与投资组合的其他部分互动？

How does that integrate with your aura system in terms of showing people what they're getting out of how it interacts with this other part of the portfolio?

是的，这很棒。

Yeah, so it's great.

我们会为他们量化分析，比如，这是你现在的独立投资组合，从现代投资组合理论的角度看它的特征，然后这是预期收益、中位收益、标准差、下行风险、下行亏损频率、夏普比率的变化。

I mean, we quantify for them, okay, here's your standalone portfolio now, and here's its characteristics from a modern portfolio theory perspective, and then here is the change in expected return, medium return, standard deviation, downside risk downside return frequency, Sharpe ratio.

所有这些指标都在Aura系统里量化，然后展示给那位顾问。

All those things are quantified within aura and then displayed to that adviser.

所以他们能直观地看到，好的。

So they can literally see, okay.

我加了这张票据。

I've added this note.

它是否达到了预期的效果，对吧，基于模拟结果来看。

Is it doing what it's supposed to be doing, right, just given the you know, given simulation based outputs.

对吧？

Right?

而且系统确实再次为那位顾问量化了，这张票据是否适合那位客户？

But it actually quantifies again for that adviser that is that note an appropriate fit for that client?

所以想想客户的最佳利益，受托责任。

So think best interest, fiduciary.

对吧？

Right?

就是说，从合规的角度来看，我们希望确保任何产品，如果落在不合适的人手里，或者设计上有缺陷，都可能导致不好的结果。

Like, we wanna make sure that from a compliance perspective, any product, right, in the wrong hands, you know, designed with flaws can can lead to bad outcomes.

我们想再次尽量减少这种情况发生的可能性，特别是和我们目前合作的顾问团队。

We wanna, again, minimize the likelihood of that with the advisor base that we're working with today.

好的。

All right.

这里有很多复杂的因素。

There's a lot of moving parts here.

虽然这不是最复杂的事情，但确实有很多东西需要学习。

Even though it's not the most complicated thing, there are definitely things It's a learning experience.

那么，你觉得顾问们最常说的“哎呀，我没意识到那个”是什么？

So what would you say are the most common ugh, I didn't realize that thing that you hear from advisors?

天哪。

Oh gosh.