Episode 874 - Fair but frustrated

但我觉得，当你想挡球的时候，手自然垂在身体旁边，其实只是想稳住自己而已。

But I think when you're trying to block a ball and your hand is kind of down and by yourself, you're just trying to keep your balance.

我觉得对本·怀特来说，真是够倒霉的。

It is unlucky, I think, for Ben White.

你知道，在英超，如果球碰到身体其他部位后弹到手上，一般都不会判点球。

You know, in the Premier League, we know that if it hits another part of your body and comes off your hand, it won't be given as a penalty.

但在欧洲，手球规则的判罚方式简直让人摸不着头脑。

That's not the case in Europe where the handball law is applied in a way that makes little sense to anybody.

完全不讲道理。

No common sense whatsoever is applied.

但根据前一天晚上我们看到的情况，还有之前在欧洲其他比赛里见过的判罚——不只是我们队的比赛，而是好多欧洲比赛——只要裁判被叫去看回放，这球基本铁定是点球。

But based on, you know, what we saw the night before, based on what we've seen previously in Europe and not just in our games, but in many other games in Europe, there was no way that was gonna be anything other than a penalty when the referee was called over to to have a look at it.

对。

No.

我挺同情本·怀特的，他就是赶上了最倒霉的时刻。

I I kind of feel for Ben White because he's he's literally just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

那件事里，他最大的错就是这个了。

That's all that's that's his biggest crime in that in that incident.

就像你说的，他冲过去是想封堵射门，本来以为球会往球门去。

Because, like you say, he's coming over to try and block a shot that he's expecting to go towards the goal.

所以他才把脚伸向球门方向。

That's why his foot goes out towards the goal.

手臂得往后收，这是物理规律。

His arm has to come back behind him because that's physics.

偏偏球就弹到那儿了，真是倒霉。

And, that's unfortunately where the ball bounces.

前一天对戴维斯那件事也一样，赛后阿尔特塔还专门提了。

And there was one the night before as well with, with Davis, that I think Arteta highlighted after the game.

我觉得这纯粹是胡扯。

Again, I think that's kind of BS.

这俩都不该判点球。

I don't think either of them should be penalties.

我觉得要是这么判，球员们就会钻空子，带球冲进禁区，心想：干脆直接往他手上踢，碰碰运气。

I think if you do that, you kind of get to a point where you run the risk of players dribbling into the box and thinking, well, I'll just boot it at his hand and hope for the best.

还能更糟吗？

What's worse could happen?

但跟你一样，我一看到回放，心里就咯噔一下：坏了。

But like you, the second I saw the replay, was like, oh, god.

这球肯定要判点球。

This is gonna be given.

是啊。

Yeah.

我真替本·怀特心疼，这根本不是他的错。

I feel for Ben White because it's not a mistake.

他根本没法做得更好。

It's not anything he can do differently.

我觉得他换作谁都不会这么处理。

It's not anything he would do differently, I don't think.

这纯粹是运气太差，他倒霉碰上劳伦蒂射门打偏了。

It's just complete misfortune, and he gets unlucky that Laurenti mishits the shot.

而劳伦蒂倒走运了，偏偏打偏了，这简直太荒谬了。

And Laurenti gets lucky that he mishits the shot, which makes no sense whatsoever.

不过你说得对，一回放出来，这球肯定得改判，真是让人气闷。

But, yeah, like you say, once once they looked at it, it was always gonna get overturned, and it's frustrating.

但我多少也能理解，毕竟整个赛事里，这种判罚一直都很一致。

But I can kind of accept it in a way because it gets given consistently throughout the tournament.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以我想，算了。

So I'm like, you know what?

这根本就是胡扯。

It's it's it's it's nonsense.

这根本不算点球，可他们就是判。

It shouldn't be a penalty, but they're giving them.

所以也只能认了。

So it is what it is.

就像2018年世界杯那样，他们开始对禁区内轻微推人一律判点球，那点小动作都给吹了。

It's kind of like at the world cup in 2018, they started giving penalties for pushing in the box and there were the tiniest pushes in the box, but they were always given.

你心里觉得这简直荒唐，但也没办法，只能接受呗。

So you're like, okay, like, I don't, I don't like this is kind of nonsense, but it is what it is kind of thing.

跟这情况有点像，确实挺让人气愤的。

And, bit similar to this, but, yeah, really frustrating.

确实有点，但如果你指望大卫·瑞安能扑出这球，他根本连动都没动一下。

Was a bit, but, if you're hoping David Ryan might pull off a save, he barely even moved.

若约卡列夫的点球踢得干脆利落，那么朱利安·阿尔瓦雷斯的也一样，那真是个完美的点球。

If if Jokarev's penalty was emphatic, so too was that of Julian Alvarez who it just like, it's a great penalty.

我觉得世界上没哪个门将能扑住这个球。

There isn't a keeper in the world saving that one, I don't think.

这就算是一个了。

And that's that's one one.

还有两件事我想简单提一下。

And then there were two sort of things I wanna just touch on here.

我们很快换人了，把马丁·厄德高换下，让埃伯·埃切萨上场。

One was that we very quickly made a substitution, and we took Martin Odegaard off and put Eber Echiesa on.

镜头切到替补席上的厄德高。

Camera cut to Odegaard on the bench.

他看起来不太开心，毕竟每个球员都希望在重要比赛里打满全场。

He didn't look particularly happy, I guess, because every player wants to play every moment of a big game.

但我觉得这个换人挺合理的，等会儿我们聊替补策略时也会提到，这确实有道理——毕竟我们还得争英超呢。

I do think it made sense, and I think in a wider discussion about substitutions, which we'll come to now in a minute, I think it does make sense because as you say, we have still Premier League to play for.

这场比赛里，换人其实是有计划的，因为我们周六还要对富勒姆，周二又得打马竞，赛程太密了。

I think there was an element in this game of planning with the substitutions and the fact that we have to compete on Saturday against Fulham and then go and compete on Tuesday against Atletico Madrid.

厄德高刚从伤病中恢复不久，好在能上场，但这次上场更像是在保护他。

Odegaard is not long back from injury as a was thankfully available for this one and could come on.

这更多是出于轮换考虑，而不是场上表现，希望别再让马丁·厄德高遭遇伤病复发了。

This felt like squad management rather than performance and hopefully not any kind of recurrence of of an injury for Martin Odegaard.

我觉得这纯粹就是个安排问题。

I think it was just a case outright.

我们让他上一小时，让埃泽也上一小时，就这么换人。

We'll we'll get him an hour, and we'll give Eze an hour and make that change.

你怎么看这个安排？另外，阿特兰蒂那会儿确实有几次挺危险的进攻。

So thoughts on that, and then obviously a couple of moments when Atleti were were quite dangerous.

格列兹曼一脚弧线球打在横梁上，飞过了拉亚，还有几次角球，咱们处理得还算不错。

Griezmann hit the bar with a kinda looping shot that that went over Raya, and there were a couple of corners which we, I think, dealt with pretty well.

昨晚拉亚表现挺积极的，但那段时间阿特兰蒂明显更占优势，完全掌控了比赛。

David Raya was was quite proactive last night, but but certainly in that period of the game, Atletico Madrid were were the better side and I think on top.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Definitely.

对。

Yeah.

他们一进球，就像我们说的，那个任意球之后，感觉他们完全占了上风，阿森纳则被压得喘不过气，只能靠运气硬撑——毕竟，那种百分百该进的球，格列兹曼要是再低一点，那就是进球了。

Once they got their goal, and and like we said, after the free kick, it kind of felt like they were in the ascendancy and Arsenal on the ropes, and they had to ride their luck a little bit because look when a 100% should score and Griezmann official goes a little bit lower, then it's then it's a goal.

不过，换人这块，我觉得挺有意思的。

But, yeah, the subs, what I thought I thought was interesting.

阿尔特塔经常被批评，说实话，这批评也不无道理，总说他太保守，不敢在换人时主动出击，去争取赢球。

I think Arteta gets a lot of criticism, and I think kind of fairly, to be honest, for being someone who is too risk averse and is not willing to take the initiative with his subs to kind of go and win the game sometimes.

但昨晚真不是这样，而且换人几乎紧跟着丢球就来了，说明阿尔特塔很清楚：要想扭转局势，咱得冒险，得换上能打破僵局、在前场制造威胁的人。

I don't think that was the case last night, and the fact that it came almost straight after the goal suggested that Arteta was understanding of the fact that, listen, if we wanna change the momentum of this game, we're gonna have to take a few more risks, and we're gonna have to try and get someone who can do something a bit different in the final third.

奥德加德上半场表现不错，可下半场完全没对马竞防线构成威胁，也没能撕开他们的防线。

And because Odegaard was, I thought, really good in the first half, but in the second half hadn't really done anything to trouble the Atletico back line or to to pick it apart.

所以我觉得，阿尔特塔心里想：

So I think Arteta thought, listen.

得换个招儿了。

Let's try something different.

我可不想带着1比1的比分回家。

I don't wanna leave here with one all.

我想带着优势回到酋长球场。

I wanna go back to the Emirates with an advantage.

所以我觉得这个换人非常明智，再加上你刚才提到的那些时间管理的因素。

So I thought it was a very positive substitution as well as the other factors that you mentioned there in terms of time management.

现在我们队几乎全员受伤，赛季后半段真是头疼，尤其是还要两线作战。

All our players are seemingly injured at the minute, which is a nightmare as we go into the back half of the season, particularly as we fight across two fronts.

但听我说。

But and listen.

如果米克尔·阿尔特塔手下的球员都健康，我们早就该让萨卡首发，很可能萨卡、赫伯特都得上，也就不用这么费劲地轮换分钟了。

I think if if Mikel Arteta had his squad a 100% available to him, we would have seen Saka start, probably would have seen as a start, probably would have seen Herbert start, and we wouldn't have had to manage all these minutes.

比如白人球员最后换下马斯卡，我觉得就是纯粹为了分担出场时间这类原因。

Like, I think even White coming off towards the end for Mascara was probably a case of of of sharing minutes and that kind of stuff.

所以我觉得，这既是聪明的管理，又是一举两得——既想赢下眼前这场比赛，也为长远考虑。

So I think, yeah, that was that was a case of being smart with it, but also wanting to try and affect the the outcome of the game you're playing and kind of both short term and long term in a in one move.

我觉得他上场后表现确实不错。

And I thought, yeah, I thought, as it was pretty good when he came on.

他和厄德高完全是两种类型。

He's he's just different to Odegaard.

不是说谁更好或更差。

Like, he's not better or worse.

就是风格不一样。

He's just different.

没错。

Yeah.

很多人拿创造力和花哨技术当武器来批评厄德高。

Because I think people use as a creativity and flare as a stick to beat Odegaard with.

我觉得这不公平。

I don't think that's fair.

我觉得阿森纳上半场能牢牢掌控比赛， partly 就是因为厄德高表现太出色了。

I think the reason Arsenal was so on top and controlled in the first half was partly because Odegaard was so good.

但一旦失去控制，换人调整，这就是为什么球队得有大名单的原因。

But once they lost that control, change it, bring someone else on, that's why you've got a big squad.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得中场那三人组上半场表现特别棒，配合得也很好，但下半场就没那么好了。

I think that midfield trio was really good, and it worked really well in the in the first half, not so much in the second.

然后他还一口气换了三个前锋，等于把整条锋线都换了一遍。

And then there was, you know, a triple sub where he basically changed his entire front three.

你又得说，大家总觉得阿尔特塔太保守了。

Again, you know, you talk about Arteta being perceived as as risk averse.

这赛季我们已经见过好几次三换人了，结果都没起作用。

We've we've seen some triple subs this season, and they haven't worked.

感觉就是有点慌了，乱来。

They felt a bit desperate.

你懂的。

You know?

他换人的时候，有时候真让人觉得：唉，我也不知道他想干嘛。

Some of those changes when he's made them, it's like, oh, I don't really know what to do.

我就直接换上三个人吧。

I'll just throw three players on.

这次挺有意思的，马丁内利、伊奥卡雷斯和马里瓦克这三前锋，技术上可能不是最顶尖的，但控球时都挺稳的。

In this instance, I think it it's quite interesting because that front three of Martinelli, Ioakarez, and Mariwake, not necessarily our our most technically accomplished front three, but they were solid in possession, all three of them.

换人后前几分钟，他们有点慢热，那个洛库姆错失的机会，大概是在他们上场四五分钟后才出现的。

The initial few minutes after we made that triple change, it took those guys a little while to to get into the game, and the Lookman chance that I think he should do better with comes maybe four or five minutes after those guys come on.

但那时候，马竞在下半场已经控球70%了。

But at that point, Atletico Madrid had had 70% possession in the second half.

从下半场开球到那个时刻，他们的控球率其实有70%到72%。

From the kickoff of the second half to that point, they had had 70 or 72% possession, actually.

真正有意思的是，比赛最后十五分钟，我们大部分时间都在他们半场踢。

Where I think it gets interesting is the fact that in the final fifteen minutes of this game, we played most of it in their half.

当然，我们待会儿还得说说那个点球。

And we'll come to the the penalty incident, obviously.

控球率这时候倒过来了，让我看看……

Possession flipped to let me have a look.

我这儿有数据。

I got the stats here.

控球率从阿特兰蒂科的70%变成了我们这边的62%。

It went from 70% possession to Atletico to 62% possession for us.

我觉得那三个替补上场后，花了点时间才真正发挥作用。

And I think it took a while for those three subs to make the impact that they did.

但当你想想，客场踢半决赛面对阿特兰蒂科这种队，该怎么打——我觉得咱们这表现特别成熟，就像你之前说阿森纳在欧洲踢球时那样。

But I think when you look at how you need to play a semifinal game away from home against a team like Atletico, like this to me felt, like, very mature to use a word that you used earlier about arsenal in Europe.

有时候，也许更强、更有火力的阿森纳队反而做不到这么稳，能冷静地说：‘还有90分钟在主场呢，咱们不急。’

Like, I think at times, you know, better maybe better arsenal teams or more potent arsenal teams in this have not been able to play in that kind of professional way where you say, we still have ninety minutes at home.

现在咱们要做的，就是别再丢球了。

What we need to do now is not concede another goal.

咱们刚熬过一段被压着打的时期。

We've gone through a period of being under pressure.

他们确实制造了不少威胁。

They've had danger.

他们击中了门柱。

They've hit the bar.

他们有过洛曼的那个机会。

They've had that Lookman chance.

我们该怎么回应？

How do we respond to that?

我们要不要缩回去死守，反而让对方继续压上来？这可是阿森纳这个赛季常干的事。

Do we sit in and just invite more pressure, which has been something we've seen from Arsenal this season?

我特别喜欢比赛最后那段，咱们大部分时间都在对方半场控球，就是稳稳地拿着球，根本不让他们脱身。

What I really liked about the last part of this game was that for the most part, we played it in their half and just kept the ball and had way more possession and would not let them out.

你这么说挺有意思，因为从我的眼睛来看，特罗萨德上场后表现真没咋地。

It's really interesting you say that because the eye test for me, I thought I thought Trossard was was not great when he came on.

你提到他刚上场那会儿，第一脚触球就直接把球送到了阿森纳球门前面，想玩他那套拿手的花活儿。

There's the mention you mentioned that moment early when he kind of comes on almost with his first touch, I think gives the ball straight away in front of Arsenal's own goal, trying to do his twisty turny thing that he does pretty well most of the time.

我当时看完就忍不住想：天呐。

And I I I came away from that thinking, wow.

这球员现在信心低得不行，今年一球没进，怪不得他连主力都坐不上，不管是大比赛还是普通比赛。

This is a a player who looks really low on confidence right now who hasn't scored in his calendar year and who kind of you can see why he's not starting any of the big games right now or any of the games.

就这么说吧。

Full stop.

对。

Mhmm.

贾·祖斯，我觉得他表现也没多好。

Jay Zoos, I I I didn't think he was great.

我觉得他既没当好支点，也没搞好串联，跟约卡兹比起来强不到哪去，不过我也说不准。

I didn't think he offered any more focal point or link up play than I'd seen Jokarez do, but I don't know.

我听你报的那些数据，心里就想：哎，也许他其实还行？

I hear those stats you're reading out, and I'm like, well, may maybe he did.

也许他只是没把机会抓住。

Maybe he just didn't Hear

在咱们深入聊之前，先说一下，那些数据其实只是……

the stats just as, you know, before we get into it.

特鲁沙特，我觉得你说得对。

Trusshardt, I think you're right.

你知道吗，他上场后丢球的那个瞬间，确实让人印象特别深。

You know, that that moment where he came on, lost the ball, obviously sticks in our minds.

特鲁沙特上场那会儿，传球成功率百分之百。

100% pass completion, Trusshardt, when he came on the pitch.

加布里埃尔·热苏斯，传球成功率75%。

Gabriel Jesus, 75% pass completion.

他上场十五到二十分钟，触球次数比约克雷兹踢满一小时还少了两次。

In the fifteen, twenty minutes that he was on the pitch, he had two fewer touches than Jokorez in the hour that he had on the pitch.

卡亚·萨卡虽然摔了几次、被抢断几次，但传球成功率高达91%，而且他确实参与了那个本该判点球的瞬间——咱们待会儿再聊这个。

But Kaya Saka slipped over a couple of times, got tackled a couple of times, 91% pass completion, and he obviously was involved in that moment where whereas should have had a penalty, and we'll talk about that now in a second.

我完全懂你讲的‘肉眼观察’是什么意思，但我觉得这三次换人带来的连锁反应，明显体现在我们最后阶段牢牢控制了比赛节奏上。

So I know exactly what you mean about the eye test, but I think the ripple effect of those three changes was evident in the way that we were able to exert control over the final stages of the game.

而且我真不记得马竞在咱们半场有什么像样的进攻了。想想这赛季，还有以前，咱们都经历过这种场面——阿森纳通常会缩回去防守，等着对方压上来，然后说：‘完了，又要被打了。’

And I don't really remember Atletico Madrid doing anything in our half or causing us any problems when I think we've all experienced this season and in seasons past, you know, a scenario like this where Arsenal would have sat in and would have invited the pressure or said, fuck.

咱们这儿有个1比1。

We've got a got a one one here.

这结果不错。

That's a good result.

咱们带着这个结果回北伦敦。

We'll take it back to North London.

咱们就再撑住最后十五分钟，别让对方靠近球门，说实话，我特别欣赏咱们这次用了一种完全不同的方式做到了这一点。

Let's just see see if we can see this game out and see out the final fifteen minutes and try and keep them at arm's length defensively, whereas I really enjoyed the fact that we did it in a very different way.

我觉得这表现真的很让人鼓舞。

And I thought that was a really encouraging aspect to this performance.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Definitely.

昨晚的表现让我想起了赛季初的事，那时候我们对阵毕尔巴鄂竞技，虽然这支队伍实力不如现在的对手，但那刚结束了队史近年成绩最好的一个赛季，阵中有不少好手，当时状态特别猛。

And that performance last night reminded me earlier in the season, we went to Atletico Bilbao who are not as good a team, but at the time, they just come off the back of one of their best seasons in recent memory, had loads of good players, looks really strong.

说不定是国家的缘故。

Maybe it's the country.

两队的球衣居然一模一样。

The kits were exactly the same.

对。

Yeah.

这事儿让我想起之前那场比赛，当时阿尔特塔临场变阵扭转了局面，那场原本两队势均力敌，阿森纳一度占优，马竞也有过上风的时候。

It reminded me of that because Arteta changed that game, which had been pretty even, and Arsenal had bits on top, Atletico bad bits on top.

那天就是靠替补席调整改了势，印象里当时换上了马丁内利对吧？

And he changed that with with from the bench with with and Martinelli coming on that night, I think it was.

而今天这场的情况和那次太像了，这一整个赛季，我们几乎都没法凑齐阿尔特塔原本打造的那套阵容，那套阵容本来就是用来应对这种局面、用来临阵改变比赛走向的。

And it reminded me of that in the sense that we've been robbed, I think, almost this entire season of the squad that Mikel Arteta built to to combat these kind of problems and to change these kind of games.

大家总说建这套阵容就是为了补深度，这话没错，但今天这套阵容真的派上用场了。

And for all the talk of depth being the reason the squad was built, that's true.

这帮助阿森纳在本赛季的英超和欧冠赛场上持续保持竞争力。

And that's helped Arsenal sustain challenges in both the Premier League and Champions League this season.

但我觉得更重要的是，球队有多种手段能扭转比赛，有不同工具来掌控局势。

But I think more important was the the versatility and the different weapons to try and change a game and different tools to try and manipulate a game in your favor.

耶稣复出后状态一直没恢复到最佳，特鲁萨德呢，我也说过，最近表现也不好。

And and Jesus is is someone who has not been at his best since he's come back from injury and Trussard, like I said earlier, has has been in poor form.

萨卡之前攒了不少口碑，可惜这赛季因伤没发挥出应有水平，但只要他上场，我就相信他能制造惊喜。

Saka's has got credit in the bank and unfortunately hasn't been at his best this season because of injuries, but I trust him when he comes on the pitch to to do something.

没错，就像你说的，确实改变了比赛的势头，真的很有意思。

But, yeah, it and like you say, did change it did change the momentum of the game, and, yeah, it's it's it's really interesting.

谢谢你提醒我，让我能重新想想这事儿。

I'm I'm glad that you told me that so I can I can re reassess it?

是啊。

But Yeah.

我觉得比赛快结束时，阿森纳就像在掰手腕，慢慢把毕尔巴鄂的胳膊推回了他们那边。

I think I I did feel like towards the end of the game, Arsenal were like, if it was an arm wrestle, Arsenal had sort of started to push Atletico's arm back towards their side

在积分榜上。

of the table.

这么说真到位。

That's a really good way of putting it.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

来聊聊那个判了又取消的点球吧。

So, look, let's talk the penalty that was and then wasn't.

萨卡把球传了出去。

But Kaya Saka plays the ball in.

后卫绊倒了埃泽。

The defender catches Eze.

他倒地了。

He goes down.

裁判指向点球点，但随后又改判了， basically 就是这样。

The referee points to the spot, and then the game is re refereed, basically.

我的感觉是，如果他没判点球，VAR 也不会回看说这该是个点球。

Like, I my my feeling on this is that if he doesn't give that, I don't think VAR is gonna look at it and say, that's a penalty.

你应该回头重新看看，这明明是个点球。

You should go back and and check and see that's a penalty.

要是他没判，我还能接受。

If he doesn't give it, I can sort of live with that.

可问题是，他先判了，又被人叫去回看，咱们还得聊西梅奥内当时离裁判有多近，诸如此类的事。

The fact that he's given it and then has been told to go over and look, and we can talk about Simeonian and the proximity that he had to the to the official in that moment and everything else.

等裁判被叫去回看，再亲自跑去查看，这过程简直没完没了。

You know, it was interminable waiting for, a, the ref to be told to go look, and, b, the referee going to look.

我特意掐了下时间。

I I I did the timings on it.

犯规发生在77分28秒。

Seventy seven twenty eight was when the foul was made.

80分51秒，花了三分钟半才推翻一个点球——在我看来，这根本不该被推翻。

Eighty minutes and fifty one, three and a half minutes to overturn a penalty that, in my opinion, should not be overturned.

我觉得确实有身体接触。

I think there's contact.

这接触算不上特别明显，但当时我真没觉得裁判犯了明显且严重的错误，所以我才说：让我再看看。

It's not the strongest contact you'll ever see, but I don't see in that moment that the referee made a clear and obvious error, and there was let me have a look here.

我想特别提一下Blue Sky。

I wanna just give a shout to on Blue Sky.

他们的网址是dot b sky dot social，这里引用的是欧足联的VAR操作指南。

It's at dot b sky dot social, and this is the wording of the VAR guidance from UEFA.

如果VAR回放能明确证明在关键比赛中出现了严重误判，VAR就可以建议主裁判进行场边回看。

If the VAR review provides clear evidence for a serious mistake in one of the game changing situations, the VAR can then ask the referee to conduct an on field review.

最终决定权，始终在主裁判手里。

The final decision can only be taken by the referee.

裁判犯了严重错误吗？

Did the referee make a serious mistake?

没有。

No.

根本没有。

No.

他没犯错。

He didn't.

其实大家讨论的、当时解说员说的，还有之后各种专家都在谈的，都是‘这该不该判点球？’

Oh, like, all the talk around it and and at the time on the commentary and kind of since I've seen pundits talking about it has been should this be a penalty?

这算不算犯规？

Should it be given as a foul?

但这些讨论完全跑偏了。

That completely misses the point for me.

重点根本不是该不该判。

It's not whether it should be or shouldn't be.

我觉得你和我想法挺一致的，反正要是没判，我也不会介意，但说实话，这动作够得上判罚了。

I think you and I, you know, sounds like we have a similar view that it's I wouldn't be upset if it hadn't been given in the first place, but, you know, I think there's there's enough there.

重点不是该不该判，而是根据规则算不算犯规。

The the question isn't should it be, it's it's whether it is under the rules.

对我来说，这百分之百就是个点球。

And for me, a 110% that is a penalty.

对。

Mhmm.

这事儿说不准。

It's not sure.

挺走运的，没错。

Fortunate, yeah.

埃泽有制造这个犯规吗？

Has Eze played for it?

有。

Yes.

他进球了吗？

Has he won it?

进了。

Yes.

是后卫动作太笨拙了吗？

Is it clumsy from the defender?

对。

Yes.

他在禁区内能这么伸腿吗？

Should he be sticking a leg out like that in the box?

不能。

No.

伊泽反应真快，抓住了对手在一场高水平比赛中犯下的微小失误——这种比赛里，一点小差错就能决定胜负。

And it's quick thinking from Eze who punches the smallest of mistakes from a defender in a a high quality game with high quality players where the smallest of mistakes makes all the difference.

我觉得阿尔特塔赛后说得特别到位，他说他能接受本·怀特那个判罚，因为规则就是这么定的。

And I think I I thought Arteta kind of summed it up perfectly where in his post match where he said I can accept the Ben White one because that's the rule.

我无法接受VAR在这种情况下介入，就像你说的，重新判罚。

I can't accept the way that VAR has intervened in this to, like you say, re referee it.

当裁判得跑去看回放十三次，这本身就说明事情根本没那么清楚明显。

And I think when when the referee has to go and look at the screen 13 times, that tells you it's probably not clear and obvious.

他们当时在播裁判在屏幕上看到的画面，第一个角度，我猜至少放了五六遍。

And they were kind of they were showing what he was seeing on the screen, and it was there was the first angle that they showed about, I think, like, maybe five, six times.

就是那个看起来像汉斯科踩到伊泽脚的镜头。

The one where it looks like Hansco treads on Eze's foot.

然后呢

And then

还有个从背后拍的角度，那个看起来就没那么像踩脚了。

there's another angle from behind that they showed where it doesn't look so much like he treads on his foot.

我就纳闷了，你们干嘛要放第二个角度？

And I'm like, why why are you showing that second angle?

我觉得根本没必要放第二个角度，第一个角度已经能清楚看出有接触了。

I don't think there's a need to show that second angle because the first one is kind of the one that tells you there is contact.

他把人放倒了。

He brings him down.

人直接倒地了。

He goes over.

就算他没怎么控制住球，也不至于造成什么伤害吧，但我觉得这确实该判点球。

I don't even think as I've necessarily got the biggest control of the ball if he's gonna do anything damaging, but I think that's a penalty.

这真的太让人气愤了，我实在想不起来这个赛季欧冠里还有哪个判罚，像这么模糊、这么软的点球，会被VAR推翻的。

And I think it's it's really frustrating, and I can't think of a single equivalent, decision where a penalty as marginal or soft as that has been overturned by a referee in the Champions League this season.

其实我想起勒沃库森那场，阿森纳最后也拿了个有点儿勉强的点球。

In fact, I look back to the Leverkusen game where Arsenal won a soft penalty towards the end of the match there.

可那种接触更轻微的情况，VAR从来都没插手过。

And not any matter where it goes down under similarly minimal contact, the VAR didn't intervene.

对。

Mhmm.

我本来觉得这可能不算犯规，但转念一想，算了，还是尊重裁判的原判吧。

And I I I thought it probably wasn't a penalty, but I was kind of like, well, that's the right call because you stick with the referee's decision.

今晚你把判罚权交给了他，那就只能认了。

You give him the authority on the night, and that is what it is.

抱歉啊。

Here's sorry.

我放一段米克尔·阿尔特塔的采访，他谈到了那些点球。然后萨姆·迪恩——我觉得是他——问他，用‘小动作’这个词会不会淡化了迭戈·西蒙尼和他团队在场边的行为，以及这些有没有影响判罚的走向。

I'm just gonna play the Mikel Arteta clip where he's talking about the penalties, and then he's asked by Sam Dean, I think it is, about the whether or not the antics is maybe a word that sort of downplays a little bit what went on with regards to Diego Simeone and his staff on the sidelines, but whether that played a part in how the decision unfolded.

下面就是那段对话。

So here's how that went down.

我们拿到这个点球的方式，我真的很失望。

In the manner that we gain the penalty, very disappointed.

在英超这肯定不算点球，但在这里，我得接受，毕竟规则是这么定的，而且判罚标准也一直这么保持。

And in the Premier League, it's not a penalty, but here, I have to accept that with the rules and obviously how consistent they've been.

比如昨天拜仁那场，我也认了，这球确实该给。

For example, yesterday with Bayern Munich, I accept that this is a humble.

我气炸了的是，那个费尔梅的点球，根本不是明显误判，怎么就被推翻了？

What I incredibly fuming with is how the hell the penalty on Fs gets overturned in the manner that happened when it's not a clear and obvious error.

这改变了比赛的走向，在这个级别上，抱歉，这种事绝对不能发生。

And this changes the course of the game and at this level, I'm sorry, but this cannot happen.

你有没有得到任何解释？

Have you had any explanation on that?

我们看到了观众和马竞替补席的反应，你觉得这有影响吗？

We we saw the reaction of the crowd and the Atletico bench to Do that you think that had any impact?

这跟那点事儿完全没关系。

That has nothing to do with that.

我肯定他们非常清楚会引发什么样的反应。

I'm sure that they are very very well aware of what is the reaction is going to be.

这种反应很正常，我们得按规则办事。

It's normal that reaction is we need to apply the rules.

就像我说的，他们对本·怀特那个点球的判罚也是这么执行的——虽然很难接受，但根据规则手册和赛季初的说明，那确实是个点球。

The same thing that I'm saying that they apply the rules on Ben White's penalty that is difficult to accept but it is a penalty with the handbook and what they said at the beginning of the season.

埃普斯那个点球清清楚楚，再明显不过了。

Epps is a clear and and very obvious penalty.

就这样了。

That's it.

米克尔·阿尔特塔老是因为抱怨某些事被骂，我觉得很多时候他其实被冤枉了。

He he gets stick, I think, Mikel Arteta sometimes wrongly a lot of the time, in my opinion, for complaining about certain things.

这其实是个很好的例子，说明他怎么说的——听好了。

And I think this is a really good example of how he says, listen.

我接受这个判罚。

I accept that decision.

英超这场比赛根本不算点球。

Premier League is not a penalty.

西蒙尼和球迷的反应，完全正常。

Diego Simeone's reaction and the crowd reaction, that's perfectly normal.

你能理解，教练肯定想尽一切办法为球队争取有利判罚。

Like, you can understand why a manager will do everything in his power to to get the decision for his team.

对吧？

Right?

米克尔·阿尔特塔肯定会这么做。

Mikel Arteta would do it.

阿森纳的球迷也会这么做。

The Arsenal crowd would do it.

你知道，这很正常。

You know, that that's normal.

但他想说的是，这次比赛里，那些明文规定的规则根本没被执行。

But what he's saying is the rules that they have laid out were not applied in this particular case.

从阿森纳的角度来看，这确实让人特别憋屈——毕竟，要是能客场赢下这场比赛，那简直是天大的鼓舞。

And and that, I think, is is obviously a huge frustration from an Arsenal perspective because, you know, to to go there and win a game would have been such a huge boost.

我觉得，作为阿森纳球迷，我们最后也可以坦然说：就这场比赛的情况，还有马竞错失的那些机会来看，平局其实也算公平的结果。

And I think we can say probably in the end, we can hold our hands up as Arsenal fans and say, you know, in the end, a draw based on what happened in this game and some of the chances Atletico Madrid had is probably a fair result.

我真心觉得这结果挺公道的，但同时，大家也确实气不过——这么关键的一个时刻，争议这么大，而且除了西蒙尼和马竞球迷，大多数人应该都会觉得，这个判罚过程实在太差了，完全没跟欧足联定的规则对上号。

You know, I'm I I think I can, quite happily say that that's a fair result, but at the same time, there is frustration that a key moment like that is so contentious and that generally, apart from Diego Simeone and all the Atletico Madrid fans, I think most people would say that process was really, really poor and not aligned with the rules as UEFA have laid them out.

是的。

Yeah.

如果米克尔·阿尔特塔当教练这条路走不通，他干脆去当播客吧，刚才那番话讲得又清晰又到位。

If if the managerial thing doesn't work out for Mikel Arteta, he should become a podcaster because he's he's nailed that articulately and succinctly there.

他说得一点都没错。

He said it exactly right.

我觉得西蒙尼肯定也会这么干。

I think Simeone is gonna do that.

就像本·怀特那个点球，该怎么样就怎么样吧。

Just like how the the Ben White penalty kind of is what it is.

西蒙尼就是西蒙尼，本性难改。

Simeone is what he is.

他肯定会给裁判施压。

Like, they he's gonna pressure the referees.

他肯定会带动全场气氛。

He's gonna get the crowd going.

这事儿他十五年来在马竞不就这么干的吗？

It's kind of, know, it's what he's been doing for fifteen years at Atletico.

要是这事儿真惹你烦了，那他就赢了。

If that gets under your skin, he's winning.

所以我觉得，让他干他想干的吧。

So I think, you know, let let him do what he's gonna do.

让我没想到的是，我其实有点搞不懂。

What surprised me is and and I kind of don't understand.

VAR裁判根本没在现场。

The VAR guy is isn't in the stage.

他根本没被西蒙尼那一套又喊又跳的表演影响到。

He's not he's not really affected by Simeon and his kind of histrionics and jumping up and down.

就算有影响，那也是隔着电视屏幕，这在我眼里简直太弱了。

If he is, then he's being affected by it through a TV screen, which is incredibly weak in my opinion.

所以我觉得，裁判压根就不该被叫到场边。

So I think that the the referee shouldn't have been sent over in the first place.

本来就不该让裁判直接面对这些场上的搅局者。

It shouldn't have been exposed in the first place to the the pitch drivers.

西蒙内上半场对奥克拉的点球也是这么闹的，我觉得咱们之前就说过，那确实是个点球。

Because Simeone in the first half was was doing the exact same thing with the Okras penalty, which I think we've said earlier was a penalty.

所以我真不明白这俩事儿有啥区别。

So I don't know what the difference is.

我猜会不会是因为这是当晚第三个点球了，他不想一晚上判三个点球？

I wonder if maybe because it was the third penalty of the night, maybe he didn't wanna be giving three penalties in the same night.

我也说不准。

I don't know.

我拼命想给自己找点合理的理由，来解释一件我觉得根本没道理的事。

I'm trying to come up with rational explanations in my brain for something that I think is kind of irrational.

我觉得VAR最大的问题就在于，这人完全是凭感觉判罚，想搞一套统一标准，可这标准根本不可能统一。

I think this is always the problem with VAR is you've got a guy who is kind of doing it based on vibes, he's trying to do it based he's trying to give a consistent approach that can't ever be consistent.

对。

Mhmm.

这事儿真让人火大，尤其是像你说的，比赛本来可能就是均势，平局也不算差结果，更谈不上不公平。

And it's it's really frustrating, especially because, like you say, it was probably an even game, a draw, maybe not the worst result and certainly not the an unfair result.

但阿森纳现在正处在争冠的关键阶段。

But Arsenal in the midst of a tie to race right now.

每一场球都至关重要。

Every game matters.

尤其是考虑到阿森纳在联赛中的表现，每场比赛都意义非凡。

Every game is played because of the way Arsenal are playing in the league in particular.

对的。

Mhmm.

每一分钟都关键，每一次射门都重要，每一个小判罚都可能改变局面。

It's being played to every minute counts, every shot counts, every minor decision counts.

如果你能碰到一些有利的判罚，比如之前纽卡门将波普的红牌，还有库萨诺夫在曼城那场的红牌——我个人觉得那根本不是红牌——但你要是能碰到这些对你有利的判罚，那真的能帮大忙。

And if you can get anything that goes in your favor, which Arsenal just haven't had in the past few weeks, like the Nick Pope red card, like with the Kusanov red card at City, I didn't think was a red card personally, but, you know, you get if you get those things going your way, they help massively.

可最近几周，阿森纳就没遇上几回这样的好事。

And, Arsenal had a few not go their way recently.

我有点担心，毕竟作为阿森纳球迷，我们老被说总抱怨裁判，上赛季的事儿大家还都记得呢。

And I'm wary because, you know, as Arsenal fans, we get criticized for many about referees and all this, and last season, we all remember it.

但如果你本来占了便宜，结果却因为这种根本站不住脚的理由被拿走，真的特别让人气愤，这对阿森纳本周末的比赛影响太大了。

But I think if if you get something going in your favor and then to have it sort of snatched away like that for a reason that is kind of BS in my opinion, it's really frustrating, and it does impact Arsenal massively now going into the weekend.

本来对富勒姆这场就很重要，可如果你带着那个优势去打对马竞的次回合，整个局势就完全不一样了，尤其是阿森纳这个赛季在欧冠主场表现太强了。

It would have been a big game against Fulham anyway, but if you go into that second leg against Atletico with that advantage, it changes the game entirely, particularly given Arsenal are amazing at home in the Champions League this season.

他们在欧冠主场只丢过一个球。

They've conceded once at home in the Champions League.

不对。

No.

这话不对。

That's not true.

抱歉。

Sorry.

大卫·拉亚在欧冠主场只丢过一个球。

David Raya has conceded once at home in

在欧冠赛场上。

the Champions League.

是的。

Yeah.

卡佩尔那场对基拉特的比赛是守门员，对吧？

Kapel was in goal for the Kyrat game, wasn't he?

但他们的表现真的太出色了。

But, they've been superb.

对于马竞来说，明知必须客场取胜，这完全改变了比赛格局，也极大有利于阿森纳，因为这会制造出空间——昨晚我们刚看到阿森纳是怎么利用这些空间的。

And for Atletico to come there knowing they need to go out and win changes the game entirely and plays massively into Arsenal's hands as well because it creates space that we saw last night Arsenal can exploit.

所以真的特别让人气愤，我觉得那是个点球。

So it's really frustrating, and I think it was a penalty.

而且，我真的怎么说都不为过，这事儿就是不合理。

And, yeah, I I can't I can't say it's BS enough times because it is.

我同意。

I sure.

我懂你的意思。

I know what you mean.

我觉得，说实话，大家担心VAR会削弱裁判的权威，这点我也能理解。

I think, you know, what I'd like to see as well is maybe one of the worries about VAR was that it sort of undermines officials.

但理想情况下，VAR其实应该是增强裁判权威的，帮他们做出更准的判罚。

I think in, you know, in a in the ideal world, what what VAR does is augment the authority of a referee or the officials in a game.

对吧？

Right?

裁判在场上是实时看球的，哪像回放能慢动作、多角度反复看。

Where a referee, we accept, sees things in real time and doesn't have the benefit of slow motion and all that kind of stuff.

但这次我真的搞不懂，裁判为啥就不能直接说：嘿，我判了，而且我没错。

But on this particular occasion, I I just don't really understand why a referee can't say, you know what?

我判了点球，是因为我确实看到有身体接触。

I made the decision, and it was the right decision.

当然，也不是说他把人踢飞了，但就是有碰触。

And there is contact, and is it the like, it's not like he booted him up in the air, but there is contact.

所以我才判了点球。

That's why I gave the penalty.

就像那个裁判，如果中场发生犯规，他根本不会犹豫一下。

Like, that referee does not second guess himself for a second if that foul happens in midfield.

要是球在中线附近，他直接吹哨，可能吼一嗓子，说不定还不给黄牌，但会判个任意球。

If that ball is on the halfway line, blows the whistle, gives a yell or maybe he doesn't give a yellow card, but he gives a free kick.

比赛继续，没人会挑刺。

Play goes on, and nobody argues the toss.

我明白判点球的标准得更高，毕竟这可是绝佳的得分机会，但我就是希望裁判在这种情况能更果断点，别动摇，就按你最初的感觉来。

And I get that there has to be a higher threshold maybe for giving a penalty because it is such a good opportunity to score a goal, but but I just wish referees in those instances would be a little bit stronger and have the strength of conviction that made them give that that decision in the first place.

是的。

Yeah.

我挺理解他们的，毕竟有那么多裁判监督在盯着他们的一举一动。

I feel for them in a way because they've got all the assessors looking at them and all that stuff.

不过，就像你说的，别怂，相信自己的直觉。

But, yeah, like you say, be strong, stick with your gut.

你一开始觉得是点球，那大概率就是点球。

If you thought it was a penalty first, it's probably a penalty in that instance.

我觉得确实该判。

It I think it definitely was.

而且我感觉，就像我之前说的，那些镜头角度，还反复放了13遍慢动作，好像非要证明这不算点球似的，但这根本不是VAR该干的事。

And I kind of felt like, like I mentioned earlier, with the with the angles, the way he was showing it 13 times slow motion, you're almost trying to convince him that it's not a penalty, which is not really what it's about.

这分明就是裁判自己搞砸了。

It's kind of like, oh, you you effed up here big time.

这才是VAR该有的样子。

That's what VAR should be.

要是他真像我之前说的那样，整个人扑在空中，压根没碰上，那当然没问题。

Like, if if as I had completely thrown himself in the air and hadn't been touched at all, no problem.

但关键是，确实有身体接触。

But there was contact.

他倒得挺夸张，但确实碰到了。

He goes down theatrically, but there's contact.

这明明就是点球，这个赛季欧冠里这种判罚都出现好多次了。

And it's it's a penalty, and it has been a penalty so many times in the Champions League this season.

在路易斯·迪亚斯那个进球的前一晚，那也是个点球。

The night before Luis Diaz's one was a penalty.

基本一模一样。

Basically the same.

所以啊，真够让人烦的。

So, yeah, it's annoying.

但另一方面，我也觉得阿森纳现在得把这事翻篇了。

And, but part of me was like, so Arsenal have to just put this behind them now.

别纠结了。

Move on.

现在是两回合比赛的中场休息，老生常谈的那一套来了。

It's half time in the tie and all those cliches.

我觉得西蒙尼就希望他们这么想。

Not focus on it too much because Simeone wants that, I think.

他肯定希望阿森纳带着混乱和不成熟的心态去踢下半场，就跟咱们前面说的，他们上半场那种清晰和沉稳的状态，别再有了。

I think he wants Arsenal to go in without the clarity they played within the first half and the maturity they played with, like we've spoken about throughout most of the game.

所以我觉得，如果他们带着强烈的情绪去打次回合，被这事激得特别上头，我反而担心这未必是好事，因为这正是西蒙尼想要的效果。

So I think if they go into the second leg feeling super emotional, feeling kind of charged up by it, I I worry that that might not be as maybe useful on the night as they would want it to be because that's the kind of game that Simeone wants.

我觉得就别再纠结了，事儿都发生了。

I think just forget about it, it's happened.

这简直胡闹。

It was nonsense.

大伙儿都明白这事儿太离谱，但现在他们得赶紧去赢下次回合，其实本来也得这么干。

We all agree it was nonsense but they have to go and try and win the second leg now which was kind of the case anyway.

确实挺让人气愤的，但他们必须尽快翻篇儿。

So it's it's it's really frustrating, but they have to try and move on as quick as possible.

对。

Yeah.

昨晚我在爱尔兰看英超体育频道，我们这边做了个调整。

I I there's I was watching on Premier Sports last night here in Ireland, and we made a change.

克里斯蒂安·马斯卡拉替下了本·怀特，解说员加里·布伦说：他上场了，会让他去踢右后卫。

Christian Mascara came on for Ben White as Gary Breen on co commentary, and he says, he's coming on, and he's gonna be told, you get into that right back position.

你不能越过中线。

You do not go over the halfway line.

他就是干这个的。

That's what he's there for.

我跟你打包票。

I guarantee you.

他一上场就直接站那儿，盯着Christian Mascara，等他跑到禁区边缘一脚射门——结果他第一次触球就是禁区边上的射门。

He's just gonna slot in there and make sure that Christian Mascara pops up on the edge of the box and has a shot, which well, that's the first time he touches the ball is a shot from the edge of the box.

其实我能理解他为什么那么踢。

And, actually, you know, I get why he put his foot through it.

也许你希望派个进攻型球员上去，低平球传进去，让门将扑不到。

Maybe you want a, you know, an attacking player there who can sort of roll it in low so the goalkeeper can't make the save.

不过话说回来，这招挺狠的。

But listen, fair play.

他确实到位了。

He was there.

德克兰·赖斯也射了一脚，偏出了，我觉得他们最后阶段还有一脚射门。

There was a Declan Rice shot as well, which went wide, and I think they had a shot late on.

刚才那个打飞的，是莫利纳吧？那脚真是劲爆啊。

Was it Molina who just absolutely cracked one over the bar?

补时七分钟里，禁区内可真是热闹了一把。

So, you know, a bit of goal mouth incident in the seven minutes of injury time.

不过总的来说，我觉得这个结果其实挺公平的，虽然咱们心里有点憋屈。

But I think overall, as I said, a fair result probably despite the frustration we feel.

阿森纳在勒沃库森1比1逼平，回到北伦敦后，又把这事给办妥了。

And I think a good result for Arsenal as we saw in Leverkusen one one, came back to North London, did the job there.

能把这个平局带回家，下周回酋长球场打下一仗，已经很稳了。

You know, it's a solid result to bring back, to the Emirates for for the game next week.

要说实话，赛前要是有人跟你说今晚能拿个1比1，我猜大伙儿都会说，好啊。

And I think as well, probably if you were, if you were being honest, if somebody had offered you a one one last night before kickoff, I think most of us would have said, yeah.

这结果我收了。

I'll take that.

我乐意接受这个结果。

I'll take that.

你知道，在两回合淘汰赛的背景下，加上这种比赛在赛事后期的常见走势，尽管有挫败感，阿森纳今晚还是能收获不少积极的东西。

You know, in the in the context of a two legged tie, and the way these games often go at this stage of the competition, I think it's a it's a night from which despite frustration, Arsenal can take quite a lot of positives.

没错。

Definitely.

回到酋长球场，这个赛季的欧冠氛围真的特别棒、特别燃，因为我觉得压力全在联赛那边，而那些更紧张的氛围多半也集中在联赛里。

And going back to the Emirates, Champions League atmospheres this season have been really fun and exciting because I kinda feel like the pressure's all on the league, and that's maybe where some of the more techy atmospheres have been.

但欧冠这边，就我个人而言，我觉得我和广大球迷的感受是一致的。

But the Champions League, I I'm speaking for myself, but I kinda feel like I'm in tune with the wider fan base.

感觉这就像个意外之喜。

It feels a bit like a bonus.

如果阿森纳能赢下欧冠，那简直太棒了。

If Arsenal win the Champions League, amazing.

你知道，这种事咱们谁都没见过。

You know, that's something that none of us have ever seen before.

但对我来说，重点还是联赛，我觉得阿森纳最想赢的也是联赛。

But, the focus is, for me, the league, and that's what I think Arsenal want to win.

所以这些比赛才显得压力更大。

And that's why it feels like there's more pressure on those games.

所以啊，嗯……

So the the yeah.

我觉得周二晚上一定会特别精彩。

I think the fun will be there on on, Tuesday night.

大家去现场就是为了开心，全力支持球队。

I think people really go there to enjoy themselves and get behind the team.

以前在欧冠赛场上，球迷们一直都是这样，尤其是阿森纳重返欧冠之后，我觉得更是如此。

Like, they have done all the time in the Champions League, but through the since Arsenal got back into it, I think.

我猜昨晚阿森纳不算慢热或者太保守，但本赛季他们在联赛里偶尔踢的那种谨慎、慢节奏的踢法，放在欧冠其实也不算坏事——毕竟这是两回合制，每一分都关键，细节决定成败，这种事嘛，你得认。

That kind of I guess, I don't think Arsenal was slow and risk averse last night, but the kind of slower and risk averse football that Arsenal have played in the league at times this season, I think, actually isn't that bad in the Champions League, and you can kind of accept it because these are two legged affairs and everything is so cagey and everything matters and the marginal things have to go your way and that kind of stuff.

我觉得这么踢没问题，而且大多数球迷也这么想。

I think it's fine to play that way, and I think most of the fans feel that.

我觉得现场气氛一定会特别棒。

So I think the atmosphere will be amazing.

我确实有这种感觉，毕竟回到酋长球场，昨晚比赛后他们也这么说。

I I do feel that, yeah, going back to the Emirates, I think they said this, after game last night.

要是有人跟你说，你只剩一场在酋长球场对马德里竞技的比赛，赢了就能进欧冠决赛，你肯定愿意接受。

Like, if you'd if you'd said you've got one game at the Emirates against Atletico Madrid to get to the Champions League final and you have to win it, you'd take that.

对。

Mhmm.

尤其是考虑到阿森纳本赛季早些时候在酋长球场曾4比0大胜他们。

Particularly given that Arsenal beat them four nil at the Emirates earlier in the season.

所以现在看来，咱们的位置其实挺不错的。

So it it does feel like it's a good position to be in.

是啊。

Yeah.

虽然没达到最理想的状态，但已经很好了。

Not as it could have been, but still good.

在咱们继续之前，我其实挺好奇你刚才说的，关于别把气氛搞得太像西蒙尼希望的那样情绪化。

I'm I'm sort of interested in, before we go, just sort of what you said about maybe not making it as emotional as Diego Simeone might like.

我的意思是，这家伙总想把每件事都搞得特别煽情。

I mean, he's a guy who always tries to make everything as emotional as possible.

他做事就是这风格。

It's just kinda how he operates.

咱们都看到了本·怀特那事儿，据说中场休息时球员离场，他踩到了马竞队徽，结果被狠狠批评了一顿。

We saw that with the the Ben White stuff where, you know, he he was taken to task apparently for stepping on the Atletico crest as the players were going off at halftime.

我觉得吧，这事儿有点儿像是故意安排的。

Like, my my feeling is that this is sort of, what's the word, orchestrated a little bit.

你懂的。

You know?

你要是真不想让人踩那大大的队徽，就别把那么大个队徽直接画在通往隧道的地上啊，这不就是自找的吗？

Like, if you don't want people to stand on your big giant crest that's right there in front of the tunnel, don't put the big giant crest on the pathway into the fucking tunnel, you dickheads.

不过，这事儿确实发生了，肯定有人跟本·怀特和西蒙尼说了什么。

But but that was a moment, obviously, someone said something to Ben White and Simeone.

一开始看起来他是过来平息事态的，结果呢，那几巴掌拍得有点太重了，明显是故意的。对了，你注意没，好像有个阿森纳的安保人员或者工作人员赶紧跑过来处理这事。

At first, it looks like he's coming over to sort of settle things down, and then he does the, you know, the slaps, you know, just that little bit too hard where you know he's he's at something, and you could see, by the way, I think it's an Arsenal security guy or one of the Arsenal people comes running over to to to sort that stuff out.

说真的，这事儿简直荒唐。

Like, you know, it's absurd, really.

你懂的。

You know?

不能踩队徽？开什么玩笑？

The idea that you can't stand on a crest for, like, what the fuck?

这又不是谁的墓碑。

You know, it's not somebody's grave.

但他们就是故意搞这些花样，想造气氛嘛。

But but things like that that they sort of set up and and try and use, like, you want a big atmosphere.

你得用他们的办法回击才行。

You kinda wanna fight fire with fire.

在家踢球嘛，就得有点痞气，懂吧？

You wanna be a bit shithousery, you know, at home.

我不是说要跟他们一样玩阴的，但咱们对那个点球、对西蒙尼找本·怀特麻烦这事的不满，确实得有点回应吧？咱们都知道，本·怀特自己也不是那种怕事儿的人。

I'm not saying play them at their own game, but there has to be an element of that frustration that we have about the penalty, that nonsense where Simeone is is sort of taking Ben White to task for, like and we know Ben White is somebody who who is not averse to a little bit of that kind of stuff himself.

对吧？

Right?

我不是说咱们多清高，但总得有个度，该还击的时候就得还击，这事儿得拿捏好。

So it's not it's not that I'm saying we're holier than thou or anything like that, but there has to be a balance, right, between the occasion, a little bit of payback.

你知道的，任何能点燃现场气氛、调动球迷情绪的小手段，都值得用。

You know, every little thing that you can use to get the crowd up and motivate the crowd.

对吧？

You know?

咱们是该多往这方向靠一靠，还是说现在更该专注战术、阵型和组织？

Do we have to lean into that a little bit, or is it is it more about the tactical focus and the setup and the organization?

而且现在这个赛季阶段，你也说了，阿森纳球员看起来有点累。

Or at this point of the season, and you've said, you know, the Arsenal players look a little bit tired.

我觉得疲劳肯定是个因素，所以只要能提气的招儿，咱们都得认真考虑。

I think there's there's clearly gonna be elements of fatigue involved in this, that everything we can do to generate energy is something that we need to at least consider.

是的。

Yeah.

这种徽章作秀真是荒唐透顶。

The the badge stuff is such performative nonsense.

这些球员在场上 spit 了整整九十分钟，现在倒突然在乎起这块涂了红白蓝三色的草皮了？

Like, these players have been walking around spitting on the pitch for ninety minutes, and now suddenly you care about this little bit of grass that you painted red and white and blue.

这纯粹就是胡扯。

Like, it's it's complete nonsense.

他们没注意到，西蒙尼打本·怀特的时候，德克兰·赖斯也直接从那块地方跑过去了，可没人吭一声。

Well, they missed the they missed the fact that, like, as Simeone is slapping Ben White, Declan Rice just runs right across it as well, and nobody says a word.

这纯粹就是挑软柿子捏。

It's just like slight div outrage.

往徽章上扔厕纸，这算不算不敬啊？

Throwing of the toilet roll on the badge, is that is that disrespecting, I wonder?

这算数吗？

Like, does that count?

我觉得这比那更不尊重人

That feels a lot more disrespectful to me than

是双层的吗？

Is it two ply?

含芦荟吗？

Is it aloe vera?

说不定是好纸巾呢，你说是吧？

Maybe it's good toilet roll, you know?

擦干净就行了。

Just wipe it clean.

他们扔的是那种湿巾

The candu wipes they were throwing

往下扔的。

down.

但是

But

那根本就是胡扯。

it was, yeah, it was it was nonsense.

我觉得阿塞应该远离这种玩意儿。

And I think Arse would do well to get away from that kind of stuff.

对。

Mhmm.

西蒙那种做法就不一样了，他就是故意激你，让你火大，不管是比赛里还是啥时候，他都想让你吃红牌。

Whereas like the kind of thing that Simeon is trying to engineer it to, to get under your skin and to, I don't know, if, if that's during the game or something, then he's going try and get you sent off for it.

这种事儿你得留个心眼。

You have to be careful with that kind of stuff.

你得时刻保持清醒。

You have to have your brain switched on.

但我觉得其实可以利用，阿尔特塔就提过好几次。

But I don't think there's there's I think you can use and Arteta spoke about this a few times.

你可以借助球迷的气势。

You can use the energy of the crowd.

你可以把这种势头用在正道上。

You can use the momentum in a good way.

对。

Mhmm.

但你得小心别越界，尤其是对马竞，你得比对世界上其他任何球队都更小心，一不小心就踩线了。激情是好事，真的能帮上忙。

There's just a line that you have to be wary of crossing, and think I against Atletico Madrid, you have to be more wary than against pretty much any team in the world that you can step over it, and the emotion is great, and the emotion works really well.

我们最近一些最棒的夜晚，都是这种情绪爆棚的比赛。

And some of the best nights in our recent history have been big emotional affairs.

比如对皇马那场，所有人都热血沸腾，结果特别棒。

Like, the Real Madrid one, everyone was super pumped, and it worked, and it was amazing.

我觉得西蒙尼就想打这种风格的比赛，咱们能躲多远就躲多远，别顺着他来。

And I think you just have to be wary of the fact that Simeone wants a certain kind of game, and you have to be wary not to give it to him, I think, as much as possible.

但如果阿森纳能像首回合上半场那样踢出统治级表现，球迷一定会被点燃，全力支持咱们。

But I think if Arsenal go in and put a kind of dominant display that they did in the first leg, first half of the first leg, sorry, Arsenal fans will rise to it and and respond to it positively.

有球迷在旁边加油助威，踢出流畅漂亮的足球当然轻松多了，总比被嘘声震得耳朵聋了强。

And it's it's it's a lot easier to play that kind of nice parsley play when you've got people cheering you than when they're whistling and deafening like that.

所以刚才我说的情感因素，就是这个意思。

So that's kind of what I meant about the emotional element earlier.

别太刻意去拒绝西蒙尼想要的东西，但也不能因此压抑自己去感受这场比赛的激情和氛围。

It's just don't try and avoid giving Simone what he wants too much, but don't let that stop you from feeling the emotion of the night and feeling the the occasion of it all.

对。

Yeah.

你说得对，这确实是一场重要的比赛。

And that's you're absolutely right to say the occasion.

这可是欧冠半决赛啊。

This is a Champions League semifinal.

比赛形势胶着，胜负难分，怎么说都行，但阿森纳有机会杀进欧冠决赛——这事儿咱们理应感到骄傲，也该满怀期待。

You know, we the game is even Stevens, honors even on a knife edge, whatever way you wanna put it, but Arsenal have the opportunity to make the Champions League final, and that is something that we should all be, a, very proud of and, b, looking forward to in a in a big, big way.

希望下周咱们能拿下这场比赛。

So let's hope next week we can do the business.

就算不按他们的套路来，咱们也得用自己的方式赢下他们，直奔布达佩斯的决赛！

Even if we don't play them at their own game, beat them at our game and make our way to Budapest for the final.

对。

Right.

咱们就说到这儿吧。

We better leave it there.

卡亚，和你聊天总是特别愉快。

Kaya, it's ever a pleasure to talk to you.

非常感谢你抽出时间，咱们改天再聊。

Thank you very much indeed for your time, and we'll we'll catch up again soon.

谢谢，安德鲁。

Thanks, Andrew.

真的聊得很开心。

Really enjoyed it.

再次衷心感谢卡亚。

Thank you very much indeed to Kaya.

和他聊天总是特别棒。

Always great to chat with him.

我觉得这场球聊得特别有意思。

I think it was a really, really interesting game to discuss.

希望下周咱们能搞定比赛，把这事办成了，顺利挺进欧冠决赛。

And, hopefully, next week, we can do the business, complete the job, and make our way to the Champions League final.

那得多带劲啊！

Wouldn't that be something?

不过在那之前，本周末我们还得先打一场英超联赛，对手是富勒姆。

First, though, we have a Premier League game to contend with at the weekend against Fulham.

明天我们在Patreon上再详细聊这个。

We'll talk more about that tomorrow over on Patreon.

我们会为Patreon会员独家推出一期常规的英超前瞻播客。

We'll do our regular Premier League preview podcast exclusively for our Patreon members.

在这里，我想对所有支持我们的会员说声超级感谢。

And to all of them, I wanna say a huge thank you for their continued support.

正是因为有你们在Patreon上持续支持，我们才能做这么多事——无论是Arsenoblog的博客、新闻站、阿森纳女足板块，还是所有这些免费对大家开放的播客内容，全靠你们这群超棒的粉丝，不仅为了看我们的独家内容，更为了支持Arsenoblog这个平台一路走下去。

It not only allows us to do everything that we do on Arseblog with the the blog, the news site, the Arsenal women's section, the podcasts, all of the stuff that we do for free for everybody is down to the fact that we have an amazing community who subscribe to us on Patreon, not only to get the extra content that we put out there, but to support everything that Arseblog does as a a website or an online platform maybe might be the the right way of putting it.

他们还帮我们做的一件事，就是回馈社会。

Another thing that they help us do is give a bit back.

现在这个世界越来越难，财富和资源分配极度不均，明明东西多得是，可还是有那么多人吃不饱、穿不暖。

In a world which is increasingly challenging and in which there is a a grotesque inequality in terms of wealth and resources despite the fact that there's so much of everything.

世界上还有太多人正处在困境中。

There are still so many people out there who are in need.

我一直觉得，如果你有幸拥有像Arseblog这样的平台，有能力做点什么——哪怕再小，你也该去做。

And I felt for a long time that if you have the privilege to have a platform like Arseblog, you have the ability to do something, however small, it is incumbent on you to do that.

从2022年开始，每年四月，我们都会把Patreon上赚到的每一分钱，连同Arsenblog其他同事的额外捐款，全部捐给那些和我们价值观一致、真心帮助全球弱势群体的慈善机构。

And every April since 2022, we have donated every penny that we make on Patreon and more because there are contributions from other members of the Arseblog team as well to good causes and charities, which we feel are aligned with the values that we have and which do their very best to help people in need all over the world.

这个月，跟大家说说我们具体做了什么：我们捐了两万五千欧元，支持阿森纳基金会的筹款活动，目前这个项目已经筹到超过六十万英镑了。

So this month, to give you a breakdown of what we are doing, we made a donation of €25,000 to the fundraiser, which benefits the Arsenal Foundation, which right now stands at over £600,000.

这里必须给《Arsenal Vision》播客的埃利奥特点个大大的赞。

I have to give Elliot from the Arsenal Vision podcast huge credit for this.

我们非常支持这个项目，但真正推动这一切的，一直都是他——过去几年，这个筹款活动能坚持下来，全靠他一个人在扛。

This is something that we are really, really happy to support, but he is the driving force behind this, and he's the driving force behind this entire fundraiser for the last number of years.

我也不清楚具体总数是多少。

I don't know what the actual total is.

我觉得这个募捐活动可能已经筹到将近两百万英镑了，这全靠Arsenal Vision和Arseblog这两个社区的慷慨支持。

I think it could be coming up on £2,000,000 that this fundraiser has raised, generated with thanks to incredible generosity from the communities of both Arsenal Vision and Arseblog.

这事儿真太了不起了。

It's it's an amazing thing.

埃利奥特真的该得到极大的认可。

I think Elliott deserves a huge amount of credit.

他不是为了这个才做的，他肯定也不愿意听人夸他，但说到这种事，他简直就是个能量爆棚的人。

He's not doing it for that, and he would be reluctant to take it certainly, but he is a force of nature when it comes to this kind of stuff.

所以我们又捐了两万五千欧元来支持这次活动。

So we were delighted to support that again to the tune of €25,000.

除此之外，我们还捐了十万欧元给都柏林的一个叫‘休斯之家’的机构，他们照顾那些孩子在都柏林儿童医院治疗的家庭。

On top of that, we have given €15,000 to an organization here in Dublin called Hugh's House, who look after families whose children are in the children's hospitals here in Dublin.

他们免费提供住宿，让来自爱尔兰各地的家庭能和生病的孩子待在一起。

They provide accommodation free of charge so families who are dealing with a sick child can stay together from all over Ireland.

他们可以住在都柏林这个中心地点。

They can stay in this central place in Dublin.

就不必为酒店费用发愁了，现在哪儿的酒店价格都贵得离谱。

Don't have to worry about hotel costs, which are absurd like everywhere these days.

这真是个了不起的组织，我们能支持他们，真的特别特别开心。

It's an amazing organization, and we were really, really happy to support them.

我们还捐了十万欧元给柳叶刀基金会，这是由鲍勃·威尔逊创办的慈善机构，专门为重病的年轻成年人安排特别的日子。

We've also given €10,000 to the Willow Foundation, which is a charity set up by Bob Wilson, of course, who provides special days for seriously ill young adults.

十万欧元捐给了联合国儿童基金会，他们为战区、冲突地区那些挨饿、流离失所的孩子们做了太多了不起的事。

€10,000 has gone to UNICEF who do such incredible work looking after children in war zones, in areas of conflict, who are starving, who are displaced.

我们一直长期支持他们的工作，今年也很高兴能继续支持。

We've been a longtime supporter of the work that they do, and we're happy to include them again this year.

最后一笔捐款给了爱尔兰本地的一个组织，叫MADRA。

And the final donation is to an organization here in Ireland called MADRA.

MADRA在爱尔兰语里就是‘狗’的意思。

MADRA is the Irish word for dog.