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您所有喜爱的CBC播客现在都可以在YouTube上收看。
All your favorite CBC Podcasts are now available on YouTube.
最棒且屡获殊荣的真罪案调查、幽默喜剧、生动的流行文化对话，以及更多音频系列，全部可在CBC播客的YouTube频道上找到。
The best and award winning true crime investigations, hilarious comedies, vibrant pop culture conversations, and even more audio series are all available on CBC Podcasts' YouTube channel.
您还将发现独家视频首播、YouTube短视频，以及来自我们主持人和制作人的幕后内容，这些内容 elsewhere 都找不到。
You'll also find exclusive video first episodes, YouTube shorts, and behind the scenes content from our hosts and producers that you can't find anywhere else.
因此，如果您将YouTube作为收听播客的首选平台，只需搜索CBC播客并点击订阅，就不会错过任何最新更新。
So if YouTube is your go to source for podcasts, just search CBC Podcasts and hit subscribe, and you'll never miss the latest update.
这是一个CBC播客。
This is a CBC podcast.
你好。
Hello.
我是尼尔·库尔卡尔。
I'm Neil Kurksal.
晚上好。
Good evening.
我是克里斯·霍登。
I'm Chris Howden.
这是实时播报。
This is as it happens.
今晚。
Tonight.
在风暴中出口，总理马克·卡尼前往北京，一位前加拿大驻华大使告诉我们，他需要在安全与人权问题与寻求新的贸易承诺之间取得平衡。
Any export in a storm, prime minister Mark Carney is off to Beijing and a former Canadian ambassador to China tells us he will need to balance security and human concerns on one side and the need for new trade commitments on the other.
美国联邦储备委员会主席杰罗姆·鲍威尔遭到刑事指控，美国高层经济官员出面为其辩护，称这些指控只是唐纳德·特朗普试图将央行政治化的手段。
Fed up, high level economic officials in The US come to the defense of Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell, who says criminal allegations are just part of Donald Trump's attempt to politicize the central bank.
水中异物，卡塞切万第一民族的执行主任正紧急疏散居民，因该地的水处理厂发生故障。
Something in the water, the executive director of Kasehchewaan First Nation is racing to get people out after its water treatment plant failed.
他表示，援助和永久性解决方案来得再快也不为过。
He says help and a permanent fix cannot come fast enough.
一个小小的问题，却牵涉到数十亿个小问题。
A small problem with billions of small problems.
尽管微塑料几乎无处不在，但我们的嘉宾表示，关于它们对人体影响的一些高调说法可能被夸大了。
It's still true that microplastics are pretty much everywhere, but our guest says some high profile assertions about their impact on the human body may have been overblown.
真是个重磅消息。
A real knockout.
美国邮政局为穆罕默德·阿里发行了官方邮票，他的遗孀表示她欣喜若狂。
The US Postal Service recognizes Muhammad Ali with an official stamp, and his widow tells us she's pleased as punch.
它们不会飞，但火花会。
And they can't fly, but sparks will.
对于不会飞的鹦鹉——鸮鹦鹉来说，这是个好消息。
Good news for the flightless parrot known as the kakapo.
浆果的大丰收预示着未来将有大量鸮鹦鹉幼鸟诞生。
A bumper crop of berries means a future bumper crop of baby kakapos.
事实上，周二的广播节目倒是挺吸引女性听众的。
As it happens, the Tuesday edition radio that's kind of a chick magnet.
多年来，加拿大与中国关系首次出现明显缓和的迹象。
For the first time in years, there's a clear sign of a thaw in Canada China relations.
今天，加拿大总理马克·卡尼将前往北京，与中华人民共和国主席习近平举行面对面会谈。
Today, prime minister Mark Carney is traveling to Beijing for a face to face meeting with Chinese president Xi Jinping.
这将是近十年来首位获准访问中国的加拿大总理。
It will be the first time a Canadian prime minister has been welcomed there in almost a decade.
加拿大与中国的关系因相互征收关税、指控外国干涉及其他外交紧张局势而受损。
Canada's relationship with China was damaged by mutual tariffs, accusations of foreign interference, and other diplomatic tensions.
当然，此次访问的代价也很高，因为加拿大需要拓展其贸易伙伴。
The stakes are also high, of course, because Canada needs to expand its trading partners.
就在今天，美国总统唐纳德·特朗普表示，库兹马对他的国家没有真正的优势，美国人也不需要加拿大产品。
Just today, US president Donald Trump said Kuzma has, quote, no real advantage for his country and that Americans don't need Canadian products.
盖伊·斯塔贾克曾于2012年至2016年担任加拿大驻华大使。
Guy Stajak was Canada's ambassador to China from 2012 to 2016.
他现在是阿尔伯塔大学中国研究所的高级研究员，我们在蒙特利尔联系到了他。
He's now a senior fellow at the China Institute at the University of Alberta, and we reached him in Montreal.
盖伊·圣雅克，这并非无关紧要的首次突破，而是两国试图重建关系过程中的又一重要里程碑。
Guy Saint Jacques, this is not an insignificant first, another first as these two countries try to reset this relationship.
这充满风险。
It's It's fraught.
充满风险。
Fraught.
可能会吧。
It could be.
那么，最终一切结束后，什么才能向你表明这对总理卡尼和加拿大人来说是一次成功？
So what in in the end, after it's all done, would signal to you that this was actually a success for prime minister Carney and Canadians?
我希望，你知道，这已经是大约八年来的首次正式访问了。
Well, I hope that, you know, there's not been such an official visit visit for about eight years.
由于这是一次正式访问，它提供了一个机会来提出许多重要的地缘政治问题。
And because it's an official visit, it gives an opportunity to raise a number of very important geopolitical issue.
在贸易方面，卡尼总理希望拓展市场并更好地利用现有市场。
In terms of trade, prime minister Carney wants to expand markets and better use existing one.
因此，我预计这次访问后将带来更大的明确性，并将签署许多协议或谅解备忘录。
So I expect that there will be a greater clarity coming out of that and that there will be many agreements or memorandum of understanding that will be signed.
加拿大国内甚至存在许多相互竞争的利益。
A lot of competing interests even within Canada.
你知道，萨斯喀彻温省省长斯科特·莫伊将陪同卡尼总理参加部分行程。
As you know, Saskatchewan's premier Scott Moe is going to be joining prime minister Carney for part of the trip.
显然，他希望为萨斯喀彻温省的油菜籽生产商争取一些缓解措施。
Obviously, he wants to try to get some relief for canola producers in Saskatchewan.
与此同时，安大略省省长道格·福特担心，在明天的讨论中，可能会提出取消电动汽车关税的方案。
At the same time, Ontario's premier Doug Ford is concerned that dropping tariffs on EVs might be on the table as these these discussions go forward tomorrow.
我们今天录到了福特省长就这一问题对记者的一些表态。
We have a we have a little bit of of what premier Ford said on that issue today to reporters.
记者。
Reporters.
当中国政府试图向这里倾销廉价的中国零部件和廉价汽车时，这会损害加拿大和美国的就业机会。
When you have the Chinese government wanting to dump cheap Chinese parts and cheap vehicles here, it cost it cost to the Canadian and American jobs.
所以我百分之百坚决反对这一点。
So I'm absolutely 100% dead against this.
我还没有和总理谈过。
I have not talked to the Prime Minister.
我会和他谈谈，向他表达我们的关切。
I will speak to him and tell him our concerns.
这并不是针对油菜籽或大豆行业的人。
This is nothing against the folks in the canola business or soybean.
我们这里也有蓬勃发展的大豆产业，所以问题不在他们。
We have a thriving soybean business here too, so it's it's not about them.
我完全理解莫总理为何担忧，但他是在保护萨斯喀彻温省。
I fully understand why, premier, Moe is concerned, but he's protecting Saskatchewan.
我是在保护安大略省。
I'm protecting Ontario.
所以盖伊·圣。
So Guy St.
雅克，两位省长、两个省份在会议结束后都能满意而归吗？还是必须有人做出让步？
Jacques, can both premiers, both provinces leave happy after these meetings are done, or is something going to have to give?
我认为必须做出一些让步。
I think something will have to give.
去年秋天我在渥太华时，曾进行过一些讨论，有人告诉我最终会有一些权衡。
And when I was in Ottawa last fall, I had discussions where I was told that that there would be trade offs eventually.
你知道，当你看油菜籽时，谈到的是40亿加元的贸易额，所以这非常重要。
You know, when you look at canola, you talk about 4,000,000,000 amount of trade, so it's very significant.
因此，我认为可能会有一个公告，宣布加拿大将根据世界贸易组织的规则进行全面调查，类似于欧盟的做法，这最终可能降低关税。
So I think that there could be an announcement saying that Canada will do a full study based on the regulations of the World Trade Organization, similar to what the European Union did, and this could eventually lower the tariffs.
我认为这项调查将在几个月内完成，并可能将关税降至15%至40%之间。
I think it would be completed in a few months and it would lower the tariffs probably to between 1540%.
如果总理邀请一家中国电动汽车制造商来加拿大建厂，以帮助保障安大略省的就业，我一点也不感到惊讶。
I wouldn't be surprised if the Prime Minister invite he could invite a Chinese EV manufacturer to come to Canada to build a plan that would help to guarantee jobs in Ontario.
此外，还有安全问题和外国干涉的问题，近年来这些问题显然十分突出。
Then there are the the issues of of security, questions of foreign interference, certainly prevalent in recent years.
这位前外交官迈克尔·科弗，听众会记得他是被中国扣押的两位迈克尔之一。
The former diplomat Michael Coverg listeners will remember him as one of the Michaels detained in China.
他接受Politico采访时说：‘我的担忧是，加拿大政府可能会在国家安全和政策自主权上做出让步，以换取经济利益，从而对中国的有问题的行为保持沉默。’
He was speaking to Politico and said, quote, my concern is that the Canadian government could make concessions on national security and policy autonomy and mute its diplomacy about problematic Chinese government behavior in return for economic benefits.
这将是一个战略错误，因为它会助长中国共产党更加积极地扩大其影响力。
That would be a strategic error because it would contribute to emboldening the Chinese Communist Party to be even more aggressive in expanding its influence, unquote.
我们知道，即使在2025年选举期间，总理也曾表示，中国是加拿大最大的安全威胁。
We know that the prime minister, even in the twenty twenty five election campaign, said China is Canada's biggest security threat.
那么，你关注哪些方面，以确保加拿大在这些领域保护自身利益？
So what are you watching for to make sure that that Canada protects itself on those fronts?
好吧，总理此次出访有许多目标。
Well, the the the prime minister has a number of of objectives going into that mission.
首先，当然是增加我们对华出口。
One, of course, is to increase our exports to China.
我认为他还会希望明确有关中国对加投资的规则，因为他知道我们需要外国投资。
I think also he will want to clarify rules with regard to Chinese investment in Canada because he knows we need foreign investment.
当然，如果能吸引中国在电池工厂等领域的投资，那就更好了。
You know it would be great also to get Chinese investment in battery plants and so on.
但他还有另一个目标。
But he has also another objective.
他必须让加拿大公众相信，他对此问题非常重视。
He has to convince the Canadian public that he takes this issue very seriously.
你知道，我们在奥德委员会期间学到了很多。
You know, we learn a lot during the Odd Commission.
我想你会告诉中国领导人：当你们说尊重领土完整和主权时，你们的干涉行为直接违背了这一点。
And I think you will tell Chinese leaders, look, when you say that you respect territorial integrity, sovereignty, well, your interference goes directly against that.
这构成了加拿大的红线。
This constitutes a red line for Canada.
如果我们发现你们的官员在加拿大政治中进行此类干涉，或骚扰华裔加拿大人，我们将做出强烈反应。
And if we find instances where your officials engage in such interference, either in our Canadian politics or if they harass Canadians of Chinese origin, we will react very strongly.
因此，从我的角度来看，好消息是，总理在中方领导人眼中被视为一位严肃且有能力的领导者，这意味着他可以向他们提出敏感问题。
And so I think that the good news from my perspective is that the prime minister is perceived as a serious and competent leader by the Chinese leader, which means that he can raise sensitive issues with them.
因此，他既能实现贸易方面的成果，也能让加拿大人相信，对他而言，国家安全是首要关切。
So he can achieve both results in terms of trade, but also in reassuring Canadians that for him, national security is a paramount concern.
正如您所看到的，自由党议员本周不得不缩短他们访问台湾的行程，因为这会与总理访问北京的时间重叠。
As you have likely seen, liberal MPs had to cut their trip to Taiwan short this week because it would have overlapped with the prime minister's visit to Beijing.
人们对此所传递的信号感到担忧。
There are concerns about the what that signals.
台湾应该担心吗？
Should Taiwan be worried?
我认为对于这两位自由党议员，总理希望传递一个信号，即这是对关系的重新调整和重启。
I think in the case of those two liberal MPs, the the prime minister want wanted to send signal signal that this is a a recalibration of the relationship, a reset.
我们应该鼓励议员和参议员访问台湾。
You know, we should encourage visit by MPs, by senators to Taiwan.
你知道，台湾是个做生意的好地方。
We you know, it's a a good place to do business.
他们尊重规则，而这一点在中国并不总是如此。
They respect rules, which is not always the case in China.
所以你显然看到了这里潜在的诸多积极因素。
So you clearly see the potential for for a lot of positives here.
但回到迈克尔·科瓦里克所说的话，以及他告诉Politico的内容，你是否也担心，由于美国当前的状况以及未采取的行动，加拿大为了建立这类经济关系而做出过多让步？
But going back to to what Michael Kovrig said and what they what he told Politico, do you share any of his concerns that in its need to build these kinds of economic relationships because of what's happening and not happening with The US that Canada might give up too much?
我希望不会。
I hope not.
据称，习近平在10月于韩国举行的亚太经合组织峰会上会见了总理卡尼时。
And apparently, when Xi Jinping met with prime minister Carney at the APEC summit at the October in South Korea.
他告诉卡尼：是的，我希望关系能更好，如果你在寻找一个模式，可以看看让·克雷蒂安担任总理时我在中国的经历，我可以告诉你，当时的总理会提出人权问题。
He told him, yes, I want to have better relations, and if you are looking for a model, look to Jean I was in China when Jean Lucie was Prime Minister, and I can tell you that the prime minister would raise concerns on human rights.
他会以私下、尊重的方式提出这些问题，而不会在公开声明中强调这一点。
He would do this in a private, respectful manner, and he would not emphasize this in his public declaration.
同时，贸易也在进行中。
And there was also trade going on.
同样，由于卡尼先生被视为一位严肃的领导人，我相信他能够提出这些问题，并让加拿大人相信，他非常重视国家安全。
Again, because mister Carney is is seen as a serious leader, I'm confident that he can raise these issues and reassure Canadians that he takes national security very strongly.
盖伊·圣雅克，感谢你再次做客节目。
Guy Saint Jacques, thank you for coming back on the show.
谢谢您的邀请。
I appreciate it.
谢谢。
Thank you.
盖伊·圣雅克曾于2012年至2016年担任加拿大驻华大使。
Guy Saint Jacques was Canada's ambassador to China from 2012 to 2016.
他现在住在蒙特利尔。
He's in Montreal.
卡切塔万原住民社区需要尽快撤离其居民。
Cachetawan First Nation needs to get its people out.
位于安大略省北部的这个偏远社区因净水厂故障而陷入危机，并于1月4日宣布进入紧急状态。
The fly in community in Northern Ontario is in the midst of a crisis brought on by a failure at its water treatment plant, which led it to declare a state of emergency on January 4.
自那以来，居民已逐步被疏散到安大略省的多个城市，优先转移最脆弱的人群。
Since then, residents have gradually been evacuated to several cities in Ontario, starting with the most vulnerable people.
但仍有数百人等待撤离，时间十分紧迫。
But there are still hundreds more waiting to leave, and time is of the essence.
泰森·韦斯利是科索乔恩第一民族的执行董事，我们就是在那里联系到他的。
Tyson Wesley is the executive director of Coshochaun First Nation, and that's where we reached him.
泰森，我们现在能知道最新的数字吗？
Tyson, as we speak, what is the latest count?
到目前为止，你们已经把多少人从社区撤离了？
How many people have you been able to get out of the community so far?
嗯。
Yeah.
根据昨天的航班数据，撤离人数大约为668人，但今天还有人正在撤离途中。
The latest count for this from yesterday's flight was 668 roughly, but we still have people that are flying out today.
还剩多少人？
And how many more?
我们希望把整个社区的人都撤离出去。
We we hope to evacuate the whole community.
社区人口大约2300人，所以我想说，大约还有1500到1800人没走。
The population is roughly around 2,300 people, so I'd say about 15 or close to 15 to 1,800 left.
我认为，我想我们的合作伙伴计划在周日完成疏散工作。
I think, I guess, our partners are targeting for Sunday to finish the evacuations.
在中间
In the middle
在这期间，人们还在应对一场胃肠道疫情。
of all of this, folks are also dealing with a gastrointestinal outbreak.
在现阶段，您是否觉得这与供水状况有关，还是其他原因？
Do you have a sense at this stage of whether that is linked to the water situation or something else?
我认为目前还没有确凿的证据，但我们的担忧已经与各安置点及社区的卫生合作伙伴进行了讨论。
I think there's no real evidence as of yet, but I think our concerns are have been discussed with health partners in each of those sites and also in the community.
我们已经要求对出现肠胃问题的人进行额外检测。
We've asked for additional tests for people that have gastro issues.
如果是水源问题，我们希望确保他们能得到最好的治疗，但目前只是可能存在关联，我们还无法确定。
If it is the water, we want to make sure that they are getting the best treatment that they But right now, just there might be a correlation, but we can't really say.
有多少人正在经历这种情况？
And how many people are dealing with that?
症状有多普遍？
How widespread are the symptoms?
我无法确切说出社区内的具体数字，但我们注意到这是一个令人担忧的数字，我们希望确保他们接受检测，以确定病因。
I can't really say, like, in terms of numbers with the community, but it is a concerning number that we've noticed, and we want to make sure that they are tested and then to be sure of what it is.
为了让听众了解，这个原住民社区已经进入紧急状态近十天了。
The First Nation, to let our listeners know, has been under a state of emergency for nearly ten days now.
回想一下，你认为是什么原因导致了这一切的开始，是什么造成了这次故障？
If you think back to what might have started all of this, what caused the failure, do you think?
你目前了解治疗计划吗？
Do you know at this point at the treatment plan?
是的，
Yeah,
我认为是社区基础设施老化的问题，它开始出现故障了。
I think it's the lack of I think we have aging infrastructure in the community and it just started to break.
由于污水在诊所内倒灌，社区内确实也存在老化基础设施的问题，比如诊所本身。
With the sewage kind of backing up also in the clinic, do have aging infrastructure in the community too, such as the clinic.
所以，多年来资金不足以及政府缺乏投入，导致了我们目前的状况，即使很多人对我们的维护程序提出了疑问。
So it's just a lack of funding over the years and lack of investments from the government that kind of led to where we were, even with the, I think a lot of questions have been raised regarding our maintenance procedures.
但我一直告诉政府官员，当你手里只有一辆消防车时，要修复一条堵塞的下水道真的很难。
But I've been telling the government officials, well, it's really hard to fix a a clogged sewage line when the only thing you have is a fire truck.
但我们正在尽最大努力，利用我们所拥有的资源去做事。
So but but we're doing what's we're doing as best as we can with what we're given.
所以
So
你是否担心过这样的事情会发生？
Have you been have you been concerned that something like this could happen?
我的意思是，你们过去确实遇到过问题，但你们有没有警告过他们，这不仅仅是一个简单就能解决的问题？
I mean, you've had issues in the past, obviously, but have you been warning them that that this this isn't just a a simple fix?
这实际上是西昌一年半内第二次进行水源疏散。
This is actually Sichuan's second water evacuation, I think, this in the span of a year and a half.
去年12月，我们有300名成员因海湾问题被疏散，这促使政府提供了更多资金。
Last year, 300 of our members were evacuated just under bay back in December 2024, which led to more funding being provided by the government.
但我想，针对我们现在所面临的情况，维修工作并没有得到充分的落实。
But, I guess the I guess the repairs haven't been adequately made to the situation that we've been dealing with now.
加拿大原住民事务部的一名发言人告诉我们的加拿大广播公司新闻同事，污水处理厂的维修工作正在进行中。
A spokesperson for Indigenous Services Canada told our CBC News colleagues, repairs are being done at the treatment plant.
你看到这些情况发生了吗？
Are you seeing that happen?
你知道，你觉得这个问题很快就能解决吗？
You know, do do you feel that this is going to be resolved soon?
是的。
Yes.
我们，是的。
We yeah.
我们明天会有潜水员来检查进水系统，同时也会有一支团队来为我们的消防栓解冻，还有团队在水处理厂进行所有必要的维修工作。
We have divers coming in tomorrow to check out the the intakes intake system and also a team coming in to defrost our hydrants, and we have a team in the water plant making all the repairs that they they're making.
我们还不确定所有工作何时能完成，但我们希望确保所有社区成员的安全，并确保基础设施足够完善，以便我们能让他们返回。
And we're not sure when everything will be done, but we want to make sure that all our community members are safe and making sure that infrastructure is adequate for us to bring them back.
是啊。
So yeah.
那么，工作确实在进行，但你觉得这种工作能防止这种情况再次发生吗？
And how do you I mean, the work is being done, but what's your sense if it's if it's the kind of work that's going to prevent this from happening again?
我们一直要求对当前的水处理厂进行评估，看看如何确保这种情况不再发生。
Part of what we've been asking for is kind of an assessment of the current water plant and see how we can make sure that this doesn't happen again.
如果你看看四川的历史，我们已经和政府就搬迁社区的问题进行了长达十八年的对话。
If you look at the history of the Szechuan, we've been in conversations with the government for over eighteen years about relocating our community.
所以，在过去十八年里，我们每年都会被疏散。
So we do get evacuated every year for for the past eighteen years.
我觉得有时候我们可能没意识到，但这里几乎每年都发生这种情况。
I think sometimes we don't, but it's an almost like a yearly occurrence that happens here.
所以，长期的解决方案是把我们迁移到一个不易受洪水影响的地方。
So the long, long term fix is relocating us into a a a location where it's not prone to flooding.
当他们登上飞机或打包离开时，他们是怎么跟你说的？
And what are they telling you as they get on those planes or get packed up to leave again under these circumstances?
这不是他们自己选择的处境。
It's circumstances not of their choosing.
我认为，不得不离开家人，带着家人前往金斯顿、尼亚加拉瀑布、坎布里奇或卡姆斯科等地这样的城市中心，是令人沮丧的。
I think it is frustrating to have to leave your family, have to kind of leave with your family to be in an urban center such as Kingston, Niagara Falls, Timbins at Kamskys.
你似乎远离了家园，还要长时间住在酒店里。
You seem to be away from your home, so and to be to be in a hotel for long periods long periods of time.
所以我们理解我们人民的沮丧，这一直是我们的切身体会。
So we understand the frustration of our people, and that's something that we've always always heard.
但当前情况确实需要疏散，我们正尽力确保他们的安全。
But but the situation warrants an evacuation, and we're trying to make do our best to to make sure that they're safe.
你们一直依赖瓶装水，这很明显。
You've all been relying on on bottled water, obviously.
目前这种供水情况如何？
What is that supply like as we speak?
供应是稳定的。
It's it's a steady supply.
我认为在疏散初期的一周里，我们确实担心过，如果天气不配合，可能会出现物资供应困难。
I think we did have concerns throughout the week or throughout the start of our evacuation that we might have some issues bringing in supplies if weather didn't cooperate.
你觉得，考虑到你提到的其他季节性疏散，人们会一直待在户外直到春天吗？
Do you think that I mean, at this point, given the other seasonal evacuations that that happen, as you as you mentioned, that folks will be out of their homes till the spring?
我不知道该怎么说。
I don't know how.
令人难过的是，如果我们回家了，可能还得再次离开。
It's just upsetting that if we do come home, that we might have to go out again.
但最有可能的是，我们最脆弱的人群会被疏散。
But most likely, our most our most vulnerable will be evacuated.
这在我们的地区、我们的原住民社区中，长期以来一直是标准做法，因为我们知道不能拿人民的安全冒险。
That's been standard practice on our area, in our First Nations, for quite a long time because we know that we don't wanna take risks with our people.
泰森，谢谢你提供这些信息。
Tyson, I I thank you for this.
请保重。
Please take care.
哦，非常感谢。
Oh, thank you very much.
谢谢你的来电，谢谢。
Thank you for calling, and, thank you.
泰森·韦斯利是卡切塔万第一民族的执行董事。
Tyson Wesley is the executive director of Cachetawan First Nation.
我们就是在那里联系到他的。
That's where we reached him.
我们向原住民事务部请求评论，但在播出前没有收到回复。
We requested comment from Indigenous Services Canada, but we didn't hear back by airtime.
要概括三届重量级拳王穆罕默德·阿里所取得的成就很难。
It's hard to sum up everything three time heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali achieved.
当然，许多人认为他是有史以来最伟大的拳击手。
He's considered by many, of course, to have been the greatest boxer of all time.
他还是民权运动的关键人物、获奖人道主义者和文化偶像。
He was also a key figure in the civil rights movement, an award winning humanitarian, and a cultural icon.
现在，美国邮政局将发行一枚官方邮票，以纪念他多方面的遗产。
Now an official stamp by the US postal service will honor his multifaceted legacy.
在这枚邮票上，他直视着你，双拳护于下巴，准备迎战。
On that stamp, he's looking directly out at you, boxing gloves up to his chin, ready for a fight.
这枚邮票将于本周晚些时候在他位于肯塔基州路易斯维尔的出生地揭幕。
The stave will be unveiled at his birthplace in Louisville, Kentucky later this week.
拉尼·阿里是穆罕默德·阿里遗孀。
Lani Ali is Muhammad Ali's widow.
我们在肯塔基州路易斯维尔联系到了她。
We reached her in Louisville, Kentucky.
拉尼·阿里，我想很多听众，很多人会很惊讶地得知，穆罕默德·阿里之前竟然没有专属邮票。
Lani Ali, I think a lot of our listeners, a lot of people will be very surprised to learn that Muhammad Ali didn't already have a stamp dedicated to him.
为什么拖了这么久？
Why did it take so long?
首先，让我说，穆罕默德本人也会对至今仍未有邮票这件事感到惊讶。
Well, first, let me say Muhammad was shared with them in that surprise that he did not have a stamp before now.
但你知道，好东西总会来的。
But, you know, all good things in time.
现在我们有了，这真是太好了，因为这庆祝他即将到来的80岁生日，1月17日。
And it's wonderful that we have it now because it celebrates his birthday, which is coming up, his 80 birthday, January 17.
哦。
Oh.
所以这是一份送给他绝佳的生日礼物，但花了一段时间，因为起初我们并没有想到这一点。
So it's a wonderful birthday gift for him, but it took a while because I don't think we thought about it at first.
当时，一位刚加入路易斯维尔穆罕默德·阿里中心董事会的先生正和我一起查看穆罕默德的一些老照片，他问我。
And, there was a gentleman who had just joined our board here at the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville who was looking photographs with me of Muhammad, some old photographs, and he asked me.
他问：‘拉尼，穆罕默德有邮票吗？’
He goes, does Lani, does Muhammad have a stamp?
我说：‘没有。’
I said, no.
他问：‘为什么没有？’
He said, why not?
我说，我不知道。
I said, I don't know.
让我们来解决这个问题。
Let's fix that.
他主动承担起这项任务，领导这场运动，为拳王争取一枚邮票，而今天我们就在纪念阿里先生的永久邮票上庆祝。
Took it upon himself to take on that charge and lead this campaign, get the champ a stamp, and here we are today celebrating mister Ali on a forever stamp.
世界上有那么多关于你丈夫穆罕默德·阿里精彩的照片。
There are so many wonderful images of Muhammad Ali, your husband, out there in the world.
当他们在缩小范围时。
As they were narrowing this down.
我的意思是，最终决定权在你，还是你和董事会？
I mean, what was it was it your say, the final say, or you and your board?
你们是如何决定选用这张照片的？
How did how do how was the decision made to land on on the image that you landed on?
实际上，这张照片是从美联社的一张照片中选出来的。嗯。
Well, actually, the image was selected from an AP photo Mhmm.
这张照片拍摄于穆罕默德职业生涯的早期或中期。
That was taken of Muhammad probably early mid career.
我认为他们选择这张照片，是因为大多数人对穆罕默德在拳台上的形象最为熟悉。
And I think they took it because of that's the way most people relate to Muhammad in the ring as a boxer.
这可能是他们第一次认识他，我想这就是他们选择这种拳击照片的原因。
That's probably their first introduction to him, and I think that's why they chose that that particular kind of photograph, a boxing photograph.
但我认为他们选中的这张照片展现了穆罕默德的勇气与信念。
But I think the one they chose show shows that Muhammad was a man of courage and conviction.
你可以在他的脸上隐约看到这一点。
You can sort of see that in his face.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他在自己的技艺上堪称大师，对自己的拳台表现感到无比自豪，但这并非他持久的遗产。
He he was a master at his craft, very proud of the way he performed in the ring, but that wasn't his enduring legacy.
他持久的遗产在于他在拳台之外所做的事情。
His enduring legacy is the things that he did outside of the ring.
我认为这是因为这是一枚永久邮票，这体现了他永恒不变的遗产。
And I think because this is a forever stamp, that speaks to that legacy that endures forever.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我认为人们都知道，但如果他们不清楚永久邮票的含义，那就是说，即使邮资发生变化，当你寄信时，这张邮票仍然有效。
And and I think people know, but in case they don't have forever stamp, it means even if the the the postage you have to pay changes, the stamp will still be valid when you when you send a letter.
对。
Right.
这就像穆罕默德。
It's like Muhammad.
他的遗产永远不会改变，你知道的。
He never, you know, his his his legacy never changes.
它始终是奉献。
It's always giving.
你知道，无论世界发生什么，这份遗产始终值得信赖。
It's like, you know, regardless of what happens in the world, that legacy can always be counted on.
他非常直言不讳，总是想到什么就说什么。
He was so outspoken, always said what was on his mind.
你认为在这段特定的历史时刻，尤其是在美国，这张邮票的力量会是什么？
What do you think the the power of of this stamp could be at this particular time history, particularly in The United States?
我认为，你知道，当人们看到这张邮票时，这正是它作为永久邮票的美妙之处——穆罕默德确实敢于表达自己的观点，他始终忠于内心，坚持自己的信念和原则，从不害怕告诉别人他的想法。
Well, I think, you know, when people look at this stamp, and that's what's so wonderful about it being a forever stamp, is that Muhammad did speak his mind, and he was authentic to his core and stood on his convictions and his principles, had no problems in telling people what he thought.
而且，通常情况下，穆罕默德都是对的。
And, usually, Muhammad was right.
事实上，大多数时候，他都是对的。
In fact, most of the time, he was right.
他生前你告诉过他这一点吗？
Did you tell him that when he was alive?
或者你
Or you
没有。
No.
他知道这一点。
He knew it.
穆罕默德拥有超越年龄的智慧。
Muhammad had wisdom beyond his years.
我的意思是，如果你回顾一下他与迈克尔·帕金森的一些访谈，穆罕默德当时说的一些话，在今天看来依然具有现实意义。
I mean, if you go back and look at some of his interviews with Michael Parkinson, for instance, some of the things Muhammad was saying even then, I mean, are relative today.
他就是拥有那种全球性的普遍智慧。
He just had that sort of global universal wisdom.
他所引领的教训，或者我应该说他所教导的教训，但他通过行动、通过他的所作所为来领导，这些至今依然持久。
The lessons that he that he led or I should say the lessons that he taught, but he led by action, by what he did, endure today as well.
你知道吗？
You know?
穆罕默德是一个善良、富有同情心，并且信不信由你，还很谦逊的人。
Muhammad was a man of kindness and compassion and, believe it or not, humility.
我知道这很难相信，但这是真的。
I know that's hard to believe, but it's true.
他在与人交往时非常谦逊。
He was very humble in his approach to people.
你知道吗？
You know?
他是一对一地与人接触。
He approached people one on one.
他没有社交媒体。
He didn't have social media.
因此，他通过一对一的方式建立了人际联系，而这种做法至今仍值得效仿，因为如今我们过于依赖机械方式和技术手段来与人沟通，实际上，面对面的一对一交流才更好。
And so he made that human connection one on one, and it's something that, that, for instance, that example still needs to be followed because nowadays, we we depend so much on mechanical ways, techno technology to connect with people when it's better to really connect one on one face to face.
这正是他喜欢做的事，他喜欢了解他所交谈的人，那些他结识的粉丝。
And that's what he liked to do, and he liked to find out about the people he was talking to, the fans he made.
你一直从事这项工作这么久，隆尼，保持他的记忆和遗产鲜活，确实如此。
You do you've been doing this work for such a long time, Lonnie, keeping his memory and his legacy preserved and alive, certainly.
但他是你的丈夫，是你深爱的人，而你却不得不与这么多人分享他。
But he was your husband, someone you loved, and you had to share him with with so many people.
我不知道你现在过得怎么样。
I wonder how you're doing now.
你知道吗，再过不久就是他去世十周年了，2026年6月3日，但真的感觉不到已经那么久了。
Well, you know, it's we're getting coming up on the tenth anniversary of his passing, 06/03/2026, and it really does not feel like that.
感觉就像发生在去年一样。
It feels like it happened last year.
感觉他离开没那么久。
It doesn't feel like he's been gone that long.
但正如我所说，这很大程度上是因为他的遗产依然具有相关性，他的声音依然如此有力。
But then again, like I said, a lot of that is because of the relevance of his legacy and how strong his voice still is.
我过得不错。
I'm doing well.
我的意思是，我很幸运。
I mean, I'm blessed.
你知道，穆罕默德总是把生活看作是半满的杯子，而不是半空的，他始终对上帝赐予他的恩典心怀感激，我也一样。
You know, Muhammad always looked at life as the glass half full, not half empty, and he always always grateful for the blessings God gave him, and I feel the same way.
是的。
Yes.
我们都有挑战。
We all have challenges.
他也有挑战，但你一个一个地克服它们。
He had challenges, but you overcome those challenges, one by one.
一个。
One.
他从不觉得任何事情令人畏惧。
And, he never found anything daunting.
穆罕默德从不让任何事情阻碍他实现目标，并为我们所有人树立了榜样，不仅对我，也对他的孩子们。
Muhammad never let anything get in his way of achieving what he wanted to achieve and set that example for all of us, not only for me, but for his children as well.
所以这就是我所做的。
So that's what I do.
我一天天地过好每一天。
I I approach each day one day at a time.
我尽力而为，不断前行。
I bite off as much as I can chew and keep moving.
每一天总能找到积极的一面，要知道，其中一部分就是要感恩你所获得的祝福。
There's always something positive to be found in every day, and, you know, part of that is being grateful for the blessings that you've received.
拉尼，很高兴我们能交谈。
Lani, I'm so glad we could speak.
谢谢你，周四玩得开心。
Thank you for this, and and have a good time on Thursday.
嗯，谢谢你。
Well, thank you.
我会的。
I will.
我很感激。
I appreciate it.
保重。
Take care.
拉尼·阿里是穆罕默德·阿里遗孀。
Lani Ali is the widow of Muhammad Ali.
她住在肯塔基州的路易斯维尔。
She is in Louisville, Kentucky.
你不需要导师，但让我做你的引路人好吗？
You don't need a mentor, but may I take you under my wing?
你愿意帮我攒一点积蓄吗？
You wanna help me put together a little nest egg?
我不会飞，但当你在我身边时，我的心会怦怦直跳。
I can't fly, but when you're around, my heart's a flutter.
如果雄性鸮鹦鹉会说话，它们一定会用这种搭讪语，因为这些话很棒，但它们不会说。
If male kakapos could talk, those are definitely the kinds of pickup lines they would use because they're great, but they can't.
所以这就是它们的搭讪方式。
So this is their pickup line.
雄性鸮鹦鹉的低鸣本身就极具感官魅力，而雄性还会加入一些‘叮当’声。
The booming of a male cockapoo, profoundly sensual on its own, but then the male starts throwing in some chings.
科学家表示，这些低鸣声是在说：嘿，姑娘。
According to scientists, the booms say, hey, girl.
而那些叮当声则在说：我在这儿呢。
And the chings say, I'm over here.
换句话说。
Paraphrasing.
致力于在新西兰恢复鸮鹦鹉种群的工作人员即将被这些性感的求偶声包围，因为现在是雷木果季节，果实饱满丰盛。
And the people working to restore the kakapo population in New Zealand are about to be surrounded by those sexy sounds of seduction because it is a remoberry season, and the harvest is plump.
鸮鹦鹉是一种圆滚滚的不会飞的鹦鹉，当然也是备受追捧的“新西兰年度鸟类”称号的两届得主。
The kakapo is a rotund flightless parrot and a two time winner, of course, of the coveted New Zealand bird of the year title.
它也属于濒危物种，因此繁殖季节至关重要，但其繁殖依赖于雷木果的收成量。
It is also endangered, so breeding season is important, but it's dependent on the size of the rimu berry crop.
果实收成越多，就能喂养更多的鸮鹦鹉幼鸟。
The bigger the crop, the more kakapo chicks can be fed.
今年，负责新西兰保护部鸮鹦鹉恢复工作的黛德丽·韦尔科特告诉《卫报》：‘树上的雷木果长得非常茂盛，而鸟类已经四年没有繁殖了。’
And this year, Deidre Vercot, who is in charge of kakapo recovery for New Zealand's Department Of Conservation, told the Guardian, quote, we've got a really big rimu crop developing on the trees, and the birds haven't bred for four years.
所以我们希望今年夏天它们都能积极参与进来，”
So we're hoping that they will all get into the action this summer, unquote.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我本该提前提醒你她的说话方式。
I should have warned you about her language.
但多亏了保护工作者的努力，种群数量已从1995年的51只增长到今天的236只。
But thanks to conservationists efforts, the population has grown from 51 in 1995 to 236 today.
而在这次丰收的浆果季节，我们确实希望这些鸮鹦鹉能积极繁衍，只要雄性能找到一种方式传达类似这样的话：他们叫我‘生意人’，因为我总是发出求偶的低鸣。
And with this bumper berry crop, we do hope these kakapos are pro procreation, and they will be as long as the males find a way to communicate something like, they call me the business because I'm always booming.
我们现在将短暂休息一下。
We're going to take a quick break now.
回来后，我将采访一位来自两党的前经济领袖，他正在公开反对对美联储主席杰罗姆·鲍威尔的刑事调查。
When we return, I'll speak with one of the 13 former economic leaders from both sides of the aisle speaking out against the criminal investigation into Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell.
我们的嘉宾表示，这是一次赤裸裸的企图，意在破坏美联储的独立性，最终只会对美国人民造成严重后果。
Our guest says it is a naked attempt to undermine the independence of the Fed and can only end badly for the American people.
也许这是最后一次，猛龙队传奇球员凯尔·洛瑞踏上多伦多的球场，观众沸腾了。
And for what may have been the last time, Raptors legend Kyle Lowry stepped onto the court in Toronto, and the crowd went wild.
敬请关注。
Stay tuned.
我是克里斯·霍顿。
I'm Chris Houghton.
我是尼科·埃克萨尔特。
And I'm Nikko Exalt.
好的。
Okay.
现在有数以百万计的播客，也许你乐意继续听你已知喜欢的那些。
So there are millions of podcasts, and maybe you're cool to stick with the ones you already know you like.
但如果你稍微担心错过最棒的新节目，我们可以帮上忙。
But if you're just a little paranoid about missing out on the best new stuff, we can help.
每隔一周的周四，《Sounds Good》通讯会为你推荐一档来自加拿大广播公司播客的必听节目。
Every other Thursday, the Sounds Good newsletter will bring you one must hear show from CBC Podcasts.
而且因为我们是真正的音频爱好者，我们还会告诉你一些我们喜欢但并非我们制作的节目。
And because we're true audio nerds, we'll also tell you about shows that we love that we didn't make.
前往 cbc.ca/sounds good 订阅。
Go to cbc.ca/ sounds good to subscribe.
唐纳德·特朗普一直希望降低利率。
Donald Trump has wanted lower interest rates for a while now.
但由于利率仍未达到他期望的水平，他已多次抨击美联储主席杰罗姆·鲍威尔。
And since they are still not as low as he'd like them to be, he has lashed out at the chair of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell.
这位美国总统多次侮辱鲍威尔先生，称他为‘政治骗子’，并说他‘确实有严重的心理问题’。
The US president has insulted mister Powell repeatedly calling him a, quote, political hack who has, quote, some real mental problems.
他还威胁要解雇鲍威尔先生。
He has threatened to fire mister Powell.
上周，哥伦比亚特区的美国检察官办公室对鲍威尔先生和美联储展开了一项刑事调查。
And then last week, the US attorney's office in the District Of Columbia opened a criminal investigation into mister Powell and the Federal Reserve.
表面上的理由是美联储总部的翻新工程。
The ostensible reason is renovations to the Fed's headquarters.
指控称，杰罗姆·鲍威尔就该项目向国会撒了谎，而该项目已经超支。
The claim is that Jerome Powell lied to congress about the project, which has gone over budget.
但周末，鲍威尔先生罕见地公开反驳，如今多位前经济官员已签署信件谴责这一调查，包括所有在世的前美联储主席。
But on the weekend, mister Powell issued a rare public rebuttal, and now a number of former economic officials have signed on to a letter condemning the probe, including every living former head of the Federal Reserve.
贾里德·伯恩斯坦曾任白宫经济顾问委员会主席，也是签署人之一。
Jared Bernstein is the former chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisors and one of the signatories.
我们在弗吉尼亚州亚历山大市联系到了他。
We reached him in Alexandria, Virginia.
贾里德·伯恩斯坦，考虑到美国总统对杰罗姆·鲍威尔的言论，这并不令人意外，但您是否对这一刑事调查的启动感到惊讶？
Jared Bernstein, certainly, it's not surprising given what the US president has said, you know, in terms of how he feels about Jerome Powell, but were you surprised to see this action, a criminal investigation launched against him?
我并不特别惊讶，因为特朗普总统长期以来一直针对这位美联储主席，以这种极其薄弱且毫无证据的指控——即美联储主席在 renovations 问题上向国会误导了信息——为由不断升级事态，这明显是个借口，特朗普在这个问题上几乎没有支持者。
I wasn't particularly surprised because of president Trump's long term actions against this Fed chair, ratcheting things up on the basis of this extremely flimsy and evidence free case, this idea that the chair of the Fed misrepresented himself to Congress about the renovations, is so clearly a pretext that Trump has very few defenders in this case.
所以当我听到这个消息时，并不特别惊讶，但我认为总统对鲍威尔的这次攻击是一次异常薄弱且混乱的尝试。
So when I heard it, I wasn't particularly surprised, but I thought it was an unusually weak and messy attempt by the president to go after Powell.
您是众多签署人之一，超过十几位，来自两党，曾为多位不同总统服务，共同签署了一封信，谴责司法部的这一举动。
You are among several signatories, more than a dozen, both sides of the aisle, served all sorts of different presidents, signing a letter to condemn this move by the the Justice Department.
考虑到我们已经看到这个政府的所作所为，您希望这能实现什么目标？
What do you hope it can achieve, given what we've seen from this administration?
我们的希望是，这能提升人们对这一问题的关注，让两党人士都能认识到，这是一次毫无证据、企图破坏并政治化我们央行独立性的完全无效的尝试。
Well, our hope was that it would elevate this issue so that people on both sides of the aisle would recognize it for what it is, a complete and evidence free attempt to compromise and politicize the independence of our central bank.
鲍威尔在自己的视频中明确表示，这是他首次如此明确地回应这些指控，甚至可以说是首次做出任何回应。
Chair Powell was clear in his own video, which was the first time he really responded so explicitly to these charges or even at all.
他称这些指控是借口。
He called these charges a pretext.
总统长期以来一直暗示，他希望掌控利率政策，而这无疑会损害美联储的独立性以及货币政策的实践。事实上，在每一个发生这种情况的国家，经济和人民的生活水平都以极其糟糕的方式收场。
The president has long suggested he wants to take over interest rate policy and that again would be compromising the independence of the Federal Reserve and of the practice of monetary policy, and literally in every country where that has happened, it has ended very badly for, the economy and for the living standards of the people in that economy.
杰罗姆·鲍威尔的主席任期将在几个月后结束。
Jerome Powell's term as chair is set to end in a few months.
正如您所知，共和党人正在表明，这一行为已逾越了他们的底线。
As you know, Republicans are signaling this crosses a line for them.
在您看来，美国总统有多大可能实现他的目标，即用一位他认为更胜任或更忠于他个人的人取代杰罗姆·鲍威尔？
How likely is it in your view that the US president will manage to do what he wants to do and replace Jerome Powell with someone he feels is is better suited to the job or more loyal to him personally?
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根据美国法律，总统将在五月份有机会这样做。
Well, the way this works under US law is that the president will have an opportunity to opportunity to do that in May.
届时杰罗姆·鲍威尔作为美联储主席的任期将结束，总统可以提名，参议院则必须批准下一任美联储主席。
That's when Jerome Powell's term as chair of the Federal Reserve runs out and the president can nominate, the senate will thereby have to approve the next Fed chair.
如果你问我是否认为这项刑事调查会有什么进展，我相当确信它不会。
If you're asking me if I think that this criminal investigation will go anywhere, I'm quite confident it won't.
再次强调，我们法院的运作方式是必须获得大陪审团的批准。
And again, the way things work in our courts is that you have to get a grand jury.
司法部需要让大陪审团起诉鲍威尔，基于案件证据，我实际上相当怀疑他们能否走到那一步。
The the Justice Department have to get a grand jury to indict Powell, and based on the evidence of the case, I'm actually quite skeptical they'll even be able to get that far.
不过，如果他们在这个阶段愿意这么做，这对你来说意味着什么？
What does it signal to you, though, if they're willing to do this at this stage?
接下来可能会发生什么？
What might come next?
嗯，如果不是因为他们所做之事的反应，我的回答会是他们会继续施压，继续尝试通过诉讼手段对付那些以让特朗普总统不满的方式制定利率政策的美联储成员，他已经对美联储理事丽莎·库克这么做了。
Well, if it hadn't been for the reaction to what they did, my answer to you would have been they'll just keep pushing, they'll keep trying ways to litigate against members of the Federal Reserve who set interest rate policy in ways that make President Trump unhappy, and he's already done that against one of the Fed governors, Lisa Cook.
所以，我原本会说他们会继续这样做，但你不能低估总统因此所受到的强烈反弹。
So I would have said they'll just keep doing that, but you can't overestimate the blowback president has gotten here.
我的意思是，许多报纸文章，包括我们一家保守派报纸《华尔街日报》，今天都发表了社论反对这一举动，认为这将适得其反。
I mean, many newspaper articles, including in one of our conservative newspapers, The Wall Street Journal, they editorialized today against this talking about how it was going to backfire.
因此，鉴于这一越权行为——总统在缺乏证据的情况下干预美联储独立性——所引发的负面反应如此强烈，或许他们会稍微退让一些，但你知道，我并不太看好这种可能性。
So it's possible that the reaction has been so negative to this overstep, this evidence free overstep of this president to compromise Fed independence that perhaps they'll back off a little bit, but, you know, I probably wouldn't bet much on it.
我们知道他想要，你知道，他想要更多的降息。
We know he wants, you know, he wants more cuts.
美国总统曾说，自九月以来，你们国家已经降息三次，如果我没记错的话。
The US President has said there were three in your country since September, if I'm not mistaken.
在你看来，现在的利率水平是否合适？
Are they where they should be in your view?
我认为美联储目前设定的利率在3%左右是合适的。
I would say that the Federal Reserve's interest rate right now set in the mid threes is about where it should be.
也许还需要再降四分之一个百分点或两个，但我认为现在还不需要。事实上，我们最近遇到了所谓的‘滞胀’问题，即通胀水平高于我们预期，同时就业市场又比我们希望的疲软，这使美联储面临不同的压力方向。
Maybe another quarter point cut or two will be necessary, but I don't think that's the case right now, And in fact we've had some recent issues here with what's called stagflation, meaning inflation that's higher that we like at the same time while the job market is softer than we like, and those push the Fed in different directions.
加拿大央行的独立性近年来在我国确实成为一个重要议题，其重要性不容忽视。
The independence of the the Bank of Canada has certainly come up in this country in recent years, the importance of that.
您提到了世界各地的许多例子，并且在您签署的信函中也引用了这一点。
You've talked about examples around the world, many, many examples, and it's it's you cite that in in the letter that you've you've signed as well.
您希望听众们——无论是在加拿大、美国还是其他地方——了解总统这种干预对他们及其经济意味着什么？
What do you want listeners, whether they are here in Canada or in The United States or elsewhere, to know about what that kind of intervention that kind of intervention by the president means for them and their economy?
这意味着，关键经济变量的决策将不再基于证据、数据所显示的情况或经济形势的最合理选择，而是会按照政客们的意愿来制定，他们出于自身政治目的想要刺激经济。
What it means is that instead of making key decisions on key economic variables based on the evidence, based on what the data tells you, based on what makes most sense for economic conditions as they appear, those decisions would be made at the behest of politicians who want to juice the economy for their own political reasons.
结果呢，你问到了关键问题——这对普通人意味着什么？
And the result, and you ask the key question, what does this mean for everyday folks?
因为如果这一切都显得晦涩难懂，并且发生在幕后，那就不重要了。
Because if all this stuff is kind of arcane and happening in the background, it doesn't matter.
土耳其不久前就尝试过这种做法，通货膨胀率飙升到了85%，这显然会毁掉许多人和企业的生活。
Well, they tried this in Turkey not that long ago, inflation went up to 85% and that's obviously going to ruin lives for a lot of people and businesses.
当然，我并不是在预测这种情况会发生。
Now I'm not predicting that.
在我们这两个更发达的经济体中，我认为我们不会看到那种程度的通胀冲击，但我们确实可能看到两位数的通胀。而且，如果历史可以作为参考，我们不仅会看到更高的通胀，还会看到更高的利率、更高的房贷利率、汽车贷款利率，信贷市场将变得难以获取，最终，这些痛苦确实会波及普通民众。
In our cases, in both of our more developed economies, I don't think we'd see that kind of inflationary shock, but we certainly could see double digits, and again, if history is a guide, not only would we see higher inflation, we'd see higher interest rates, higher mortgage rates, auto loans, credit markets would be much less accessible, and so eventually the pain does really affect everyday folks.
贾里德·伯恩斯坦，感谢您抽出时间。
Jared Bernstein, I appreciate your time.
谢谢。
Thank you.
不客气。
My pleasure.
贾里德·伯恩斯坦曾任白宫经济顾问委员会主席。
Jared Bernstein is the former chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisors.
他目前位于弗吉尼亚州亚历山大市。
He's in Alexandria, Virginia.
双壳类生物会愉快地吞食微塑料。
Bivalves happily gobble up microplastics.
好的。
Okay.
我还有什么说得对的。
What else am I right.
微塑料似乎有一种能力，能污染地球上几乎每一个地方。
Microplastics seem to have a way of polluting just about every place on earth.
我这里还有什么？
What else do I have here?
研究人员几乎在每个地方都发现了塑料垃圾。
Researchers are finding plastic waste just about everywhere.
这些是我在这个节目中关于微塑料说过的所有内容，它们并没有错。
These are all things that I have said on this program about microplastics, and they're not wrong.
微塑料是个大问题，或者我该说，是一个非常非常小的问题。
Microplastics are a huge problem or I suppose a very, very small one.
我很遗憾地告诉你，这一点仍然属实，但它可能没有你被我们、科学家以及全球其他新闻媒体引导着相信的那么严重。
And I regret to inform you that that is still true, but it it might not be quite as true as you've been led to believe by, well, us and scientists and other news outlets around the world.
达米安·卡林顿是英国报纸《卫报》的环境编辑。
Damien Carrington is an environment editor for the British newspaper, The Guardian.
该报刚刚发布了一项新的分析报告，对多篇关于人体内微塑料存在的高调研究论文提出了质疑。
It's just published a new analysis that calls into question a number of high profile papers on the presence of microplastics in the human body in particular.
我们在英格兰的伊尔夫里科姆联系到了卡林顿先生。
We reached mister Carrington in Ilfricom, England.
达米安，正如你所知，人们一直被告知微塑料无处不在——在大脑、生殖器官、血液中都有。
Damien, as you well know, people have been told that microplastics are everywhere in their brains, their reproductive organs, their blood.
是什么让你最初开始怀疑其中一些说法可能夸大其词了？
What first made you start to wonder that some of those claims might be overstating things?
和许多记者一样，我也被那些科学研究深深震撼，正如你所说，它们在睾丸、胎盘等各种地方发现了微塑料和纳米塑料。
Like many journalists, I've been really struck by the scientific studies that were coming out, as you say, identifying microplastics and nanoplastics in testes and placenta and all sorts of places.
但在去年期间，该领域的一些科学家开始联系我，说他们对其中一些论文感到相当担忧，认为这些研究似乎在异常地方发现了非常大量的塑料。
But during the course of last year, a few of the scientists in the field had started to contact me and say that, you know, some of these papers, they were really rather concerned about and thought that they looked like they were finding very large amounts in unusual places.
所以当时我说，嗯，你知道，我不是科学家。
So at that time, I said, well, you know, I'm not a scientist.
我无法对此做出评判，我们还是等等看吧。
I can't really adjudicate on this, and let's just wait and see.
但实际情况是，一些学术研究人员开始写信给期刊，正式表示他们认为这些论文可能存在一些问题，我找到了七封这样的信件。
But what's happened is that people of the academic researchers have started writing to journals and formally saying, we think there's a problem potentially with these papers, and I found seven of those.
我还发现了一篇论文，列出了18项可能未充分进行所有必要核查的研究。
And another paper I found that listed 18 studies which hadn't perhaps done all the checks that they might have done.
因此，我当时想，这里确实有些值得深入探究的东西，于是决定着手调查。
And so at that point, I thought, well, actually, there really is something to see here, so let's get stuck in.
你认为为什么会发生这种情况？
Why do you think this this might be happening?
原因有很多。
Well, there's a number of reasons.
首先也是最明显的一点是，微塑料和纳米塑料极其微小，因此非常难以分析。
The first and most obvious is that micro and nanoplastics are absolutely tiny and therefore really really hard to analyze.
这是问题的一部分。
That's part of the problem.
我认为另一个问题是，这是一个非常令人兴奋且尚属新兴的领域。
I think the other problem is it's a very exciting and very young field.
因此，许多研究人员正涌入这一领域，其中一些人来自分析化学之外的领域。
So lots of researchers are rushing into it and certainly some have come from outside the field of analytical chemistry.
我与一些研究人员交谈时，他们提到，比如来自医学界的人或许对我们的身体有专业知识，但在实际分析方面可能经验或专长不足。
And some of the researchers that I was talking to said that, you know, some of the people say from the medical world perhaps have, you know, got the expertise in terms of our bodies, but might not have as much experience or expertise in terms of the actual analysis.
所以我认为，没错，问题就在于这真的很难。
So I think, yeah, it is the the problem is it's really hard.
这是一个全新的领域，不是每个人都具备所需的所有专业知识。
It's really new, and not everybody has all of the expertise they might need.
但你知道，科学在一定程度上具有自我修正的能力。
But, you know, science is self correcting to a certain degree.
人们将结果公布出来，也预期会受到批评。
You know, people put results out there and they expect to be criticized.
结果需要被重复验证。
You know results need to be replicated.
其他人必须尝试获得类似的结果，才能真正确定这些发现。
Other people have to try and find similar results in order to be really sure of these things.
我知道你采访了一些研究人员，他们的工作现在正受到其他科学家的质疑。
I know you spoke with some of the researchers whose work other scientists are now challenging.
他们跟你说了什么？
What did they tell you?
嗯，他们中的一些人说，这是一个新领域，我们必须边做边探索。
Well, know, some of them said that, you know, it's a new field and we're having to investigate these things as we go along.
我的意思是，当然，有些科学家对这些批评提出了反驳，如果你明白我的意思的话。
I mean, of course, you know, some of the scientists criticized the criticisms, if you see what I mean.
他们说，我们并不会全盘接受所有这些批评。
Said well you know we don't take on board all of these criticisms.
实际上，你对数据的理解有误。
Actually you've misinterpreted the data here.
所以，这正是科学发现的正常过程。
So it's the normal process of you know scientific discovery.
我认为，在科学期刊之外，一些批评可以说不够得体。
And I think outside the scientific journals, you know, some of the criticism has been, let's say, undiplomatic.
你知道，有一篇论文被称作笑话。
You know, one paper was called a joke.
其他人则说，这是一个重磅炸弹，因为这些发现表明，某些检测结果可能是所谓的假阳性。
Know, other people have said this is a bombshell, the revelations that, you know, some of the detections might actually be what they call false positives.
就大脑而言，其中一个问题是，他们使用的一种分析技术，也可能从人脑中存在的脂肪中产生相同的信号。
So in case of the brain, one of the issues is that the analytical technique they use there, can also get the same signal from fat that exists in the human brain.
使用‘重磅炸弹’这个词的人曾经为陶氏公司工作。
And the person who used the word bombshell used to work for Dow.
对吗？
Is that right?
嗯，这是真的。
Well, that's true.
是的。
Yeah.
确实，塑料行业长期以来一直有着不太光彩的历史，经常游说反对对塑料的限制。
Certainly, you know, the the plastic industry has a long and not very, noble history of, you know, lobbying against restrictions on plastic.
但我觉得在这种情况下，还有很多其他普通人，他们是普通的学术科学家，和塑料行业没有任何经济关联。
But I think in this case, you know, there are many other people who are just, you know, regular academic scientists with no financial links to the the plastics industry.
所以我不认为这是……是的。
So I don't I don't think this is Yeah.
这并不是由塑料游说团体炮制出来的批评。
You know, a a critique that's been got up by plastic lobbyists.
你在文章中写道，这一研究领域的错误可能会‘帮助塑料行业的游说者以‘这些担忧毫无根据’为由来否定真正的关切’。
You do write in your piece that the errors in this field of research could, quote, help lobbyists for the plastics industry dismiss real concerns by claiming they are unfounded, unquote.
作为一名记者，你总是在寻找答案。
As a journalist, you're always looking for for answers.
我们希望始终对我们听众和读者保持透明。
We wanna be as transparent as always with our listeners and your readers, of course.
你是如何权衡你刚才提到的这些顾虑，以及报道最新信息的重要性呢？
How did you weigh those kinds of concerns that you just talked about and and the importance of reporting on the latest information?
我认为，像大多数记者一样，你希望尽最大努力告诉人们——你的读者或听众——世界上正在发生什么。去年八月，我发表了一篇很长的文章，严厉批评了塑料和石化行业如何试图阻碍进展，事实上，他们在阻止联合国去年正在谈判的全球塑料条约方面非常成功。
Well, I think as, you know, most journalists, you you want to try and tell people, your readers or your listeners, what's going on in the world to to the best of your ability and you know last August I ran a very long piece that was extremely critical of the plastic and petrochemical industries in terms of how they try to block progress and in fact we're very successful in blocking progress with the global plastic treaty that the UN were negotiating last year.
所以我认为我并不是塑料行业的朋友，在这种情况下，我只是尽力按照我所看到的来讲述这个故事。
So I don't think I'm any friend of the plastic industry and in this case you know I've just tried to tell the story as I see it.
是的，这并不是说微塑料和纳米塑料不是问题，对吧？
Yeah it's not saying that microplastics and nanoplastics are not a problem, right?
我们知道，整个世界都受到了微塑料和纳米塑料的污染，从珠穆朗玛峰顶到最深的海洋海沟无一幸免。
We know that the entire world is polluted by micro and nanoplastics from the top of Mount Everest to the bottom of the deepest ocean trench.
问题是，当它们进入人体后，身体能自然排出多少，又有多少会残留，以及它们会去哪里？
The question is when it gets into the body how much of it does the body naturally excrete and how much remains in the body and where does it go?
我们似乎已经知道不少信息，比如它们会进入动脉、胎盘以及其他各种部位。
And it seemed like we knew quite a lot that it was getting into places like, you know, arteries and placenta and all these other places.
但根据我在这里所做的报道，以及一些科学家提出的批评，我们现在对体内究竟有多少微塑料以及它们的具体位置并不那么确定了。
But now based on the reporting I've done here and the work that and the critiques that have come from some of the scientists, it seems we're not quite so sure about how much is in the body and where it is.
那么，最终你希望听到我们对话、阅读你文章的人——那些可能对微塑料感到非常焦虑的人——从这一切中获得什么启示呢？
And ultimately, what do you want people who are listening to our conversation, reading your pieces, you know, people who maybe were really anxious about microplastics, what do you want them to take away from all of this?
这正是我问过所有我采访的科学家的问题，因为这才是关键：在我们的日常生活中，我们该做些什么？
Well, that's exactly the question I asked all the scientists I spoke to as well because it's because the important question, what do we do in our own lives?
我认为其中一个非常值得注意的事情是，我所采访的所有科学家都在自己的生活中采取措施来减少接触塑料，这显然是基于‘总不会有坏处’的考虑。
And one really notable thing I think was that all the scientists I spoke to were taking measures in their own lives to limit their exposure to plastic certainly on the basis that it can't hurt.
你知道的？
You know?
这是一种谨慎的做法。
It's the kind of precautionary way to do it.
所以，有一位科学家会经常给她的房子通风。
So, you know, one of the scientists ventilates her house fairly regularly.
另一位则不会用塑料容器重新加热食物。
Another doesn't reheat food in plastic containers.
因此，我认为采取合理的预防措施肯定是个好主意，但确实也有报道称，一些公司声称可以帮你清理血液。
So I think, you know, taking sensible precautions would certainly be a good idea, but, you know, there have been reports of, you know, companies offering to clean your blood.
你知道，
You know,
你走进一间实验室。
you go into a lab.
我的意思是，这简直太疯狂了，而到目前为止现有的证据并不支持你去参与这种事，尤其是当它花费数千美元的时候。
I mean, that that's kinda crazy, and certainly the evidence that exists so far would not suggest that you should have anything to do with that kind of thing, especially when it costs, you know, thousands of dollars.
所以我认为，采取明智的预防措施，这就是我从科学家那里得到的建议。
So I think, you know, taking sensible precautions, that's what the advice I got given, you know, scientists.
但目前，我们还不足以了解足够多的信息来采取任何可能被视为更极端的措施，我认为。
But at the moment, we just don't know enough to to to be taking anything that, you know, might be considered more drastic, I think.
很高兴能和你交谈，达米安。
Glad we could speak, Damian.
我很感谢你这次的交流。
I appreciate this.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢你邀请我，尼尔。
Thanks for having me, Neil.
达米安·卡林顿是《卫报》的环境编辑。
Damian Carrington is an environment editor for the Guardian.
我们是在英格兰的伊尔弗科姆联系到他的。
We reached him in Ilfricom, England.
比分是一百一十四比九十八。
The score was one fourteen ninety eight.
猛龙队处于落后，但多伦多的观众却沸腾了，因为这意味着直到那时都坐在替补席上的费城76人队的一名球员终于有机会上场了。
The raptors were down, but the Toronto crowd was going wild because that meant there was an opportunity for one member of the opposing Philadelphia seventy sixers who had spent the game on the bench until that point to get on the court.
这是昨晚在斯科蒂亚银行体育馆，第四节还剩不到两分钟时的现场声音。
And here's what it sounded like with less than two minutes left in the fourth quarter at Scotiabank Arena last night.
镜头转向凯尔·洛瑞。
Looking down at Kyle Lowry.
来自北费城的精英球员登场了。
North Philly's finest entering the game.
看看泰瑞斯·马克西。
And look at Tyrese Maxey.
全场起立鼓掌。
A standing ovation.
你是猛龙队史上最伟大的球员。
You're the greatest Raptor of all time.
猛龙队传奇凯尔·洛瑞在多伦多球场可能最后一次登场的那一刻。
The moment Raptors all time great Kyle Lowry stepped on the court in Toronto for possibly the last time.
比赛早些时候观众席曾响起'我们要洛瑞'的呼声。
There had been chance of we want Lowry from the crowd earlier in the game.
最终，76人队主教练尼克·纳斯——当然也是2019年多伦多冠军队的教头——将他换上了场。
And finally, seventy sixers coach Nick Nurse, who also, of course, led Toronto's 2019 championship team, put him in.
在赛后新闻发布会上，洛瑞先生被问及那个时刻。
In a postgame press conference, mister Lowry was asked about that moment.
请带我们回顾一下，我想，赛前您和尼克的讨论过程。
Take us, through, I guess, the discussions with Nick leading up to the game.
计划中是否一直有让您上场的安排？
Was the plan always to get you in there?
这是根据情况决定的，还是自然发生的？
Was it situational, or did that kind of happen organically?
我觉得这完全是自然而然发生的。
I think it just happened organically.
我觉得队员们都知道，今晚我们的球队表现得异常专注，我想这也是他们的计划之一，确保我能有机会上场。
I think the guys, you know, I think tonight our our team came out with a extreme focus, and I think that's part of their plan is to, you know, make sure I got an opportunity to get in there.
我有一群很棒的队友，还有一个懂得把握这一刻的优秀教练，我和他一起赢得过总冠军，但这场胜利属于整个团队。
I got some great teammates and, you know, a great coach who understands the moment, who I have a championship with, but it was a good team win for us.
而且，我有幸体验了可能是我个人职业生涯中最伟大的篮球时刻之一。
And, you know, I got an opportunity to experience, you know, probably one of the greatest basketball moments of my personal career.
在那个时刻之前，坐在板凳上听着球迷们的呐喊，感觉怎么样？
Before that moment, what was it like sitting on the bench and hearing those chants?
当时坐在我旁边的是特伦顿·沃福德。
You know, I had Trendon Watford, you know, and next to me sitting on the bench.
他跟我说，
And he was like he was like,
来吧，凯尔。
come on, Kyle.
你得
You gotta
上场。
go in.
上场。
Go in.
去拿你一直在等的东西。
Get what you're waiting for.
能有那样的队友，再听听球迷的呐喊，真是太棒了。
And it was just it it's cool to have teammates like that and just listen to the fans.
我的意思是，这就是我总说，他们是我心目中世界上最好的球迷的原因。
And, I mean, that's why I always say, you know, they are the greatest fans in the world to me.
他们一直支持着我，支持我的职业生涯。
You know, they've been supportive of me and and my career.
我职业生涯中的许多成就都是在这些球迷面前取得的，正因如此，这个地方对我来说如此特别。
Know, a lot of the things I've accomplished in my career was in front of these fans, and, you know, that's why, you know, this place is so special to me.
凯尔·洛瑞昨晚表示，他计划最终签署一份一日合同，以猛龙队球员身份退役。
Kyle Lowry speaking last night, he has also said it's his plan to eventually sign a one day contract and retire as a raptor.
洛瑞先生与猛龙队球迷之间的关系非常特别。
The relationship between mister Lowry and raptors fans is special.
正如你所听到的，他认为他们是世界上最棒的球迷——这一点在2019年NBA总冠军征程期间及之后庆祝胜利的游行中得到了印证。
As you heard, he considers them the greatest fans in the world, which they proved by cheering the team on during its twenty nineteen NBA championship run and afterwards at the parade to celebrate the victory.
当时，我们前主持人卡罗尔·奥夫采访了猛龙队球迷布莱恩·卡纳尼戈，他特意请假一天参加游行。
At the time, our former host Carol Off talked to Raptors fan Brian Cananigo, who took the day off work to be at the parade.
天哪，老兄。
Oh my gosh, man.
你根本想象不到。
You have no idea.
我从没见过多伦多有这么多人。
I've never seen so much people in Toronto.
这太疯狂了，老兄。
It's it's crazy, man.
整个城市，整个国家的人都在这里。
Like, the whole city, the whole country is in here.
你知道吗？
You know?
黑人、白人、棕人、黄种人，各种种族，各种国籍，各种宗教。
Black, white, brown, yellow, all kinds of races, all nationalities, all religions.
他们都在这里。
They're all in here.
气氛怎么样？
What's the mood?
充满活力。
Lots of energy.
很多人在尖叫，还有孩子们。
Lots of people screaming, kids.
有人带着小号。
There's people with trumpets.
人们都爬到了路灯杆上。
People are on the on the light post.
他们全都在尖叫。
They're all screaming.
他们全都在尖叫。
They're all screaming.
我们离球员们非常近。
We were so close to the players.
我们瞥见了他们，我大概离这些家伙只有四五米远。
We saw a glimpse of them, and I was probably four or five meters away from these guys.
但是，基本上，从电视上我能看到的画面是，球员们都在大巴上。
But the so, basically, what we can see from what I can see from the television, not being out there, was that the players were on the buses.
所以，我看到的情况是，他们正在移动。
And so I've the ones is they're moving.
他们正在非常非常缓慢地前行，如你所知，正朝着内森·菲利普斯广场方向去。
They're down very, very slowly, as you know, headed toward Nathan Phillips Square.
当你一开始遇到他们的时候，他们还很精神饱满。
When you got them at the beginning, were fresh.
你有没有像其他地方的人那样被香槟淋到？
Were you were you getting doused with champagne as people are getting elsewhere?
你知道吗？
You know?
哦，天哪。
Oh, man.
太疯狂了。
It was crazy.
是丹尼·格林。
It was Danny Green.
丹尼·格林顶着他那个莫西干发型。
Danny Green with his forehawk.
他就在那儿到处洒香槟。
He was just hopping champagne.
你知道吗，诺曼·鲍威尔就站在他旁边，诺曼·鲍威尔只是说：把你的球衣给我。
You know, Norman Powell was beside him, and Norman Powell was just like, give me your shirt.
把你的帽子给我。
Give me your hat.
他就当场签起了名。
And he was just signing autographs right there and then.
然后直接把东西扔回来。
And he'll just throw it right back.
真是太棒了，天啊。
It was it was amazing, man.
太棒了。
It was amazing.
来自我们的档案资料，这是布赖恩·卡纳尼戈在2019年对《此时此刻》前主持人卡罗尔·奥夫的采访。
From our archives, that was Brian Kananigo speaking to former As It Happens host Carol Oph in 2019.
今天，特朗普政府宣布终止部分索马里移民的临时保护身份，称此举符合国家利益。
Today, the Trump administration announced it is ending the temporary protected status of some Somali immigrants, claiming that that is in the national interest.
明尼苏达州是索马里以外索马里裔人口最多的聚居地。
Minnesota is home to the largest population of people of Somali descent outside Somalia.
无论他们是否在美国暂居，许多人都成为了当前移民打击行动的目标。
And whether they're in The US on a temporary basis or not, a lot of them have been targeted by the ongoing immigration crackdown.
与ICE（移民及海关执法局）的抗议和冲突已持续一周多，自上周一名ICE特工枪杀37岁的蕾妮·古德后，紧张局势急剧升级。
Protests and confrontations with ICE have been going on for over a week, and tensions have been heightened dramatically since an ICE agent fatally shot 37 year old Renee Good last week.
优素福·阿卜杜拉对这一情况再熟悉不过。
Youssef Abdullah is all too familiar with the situation.
他是北美伊斯兰协会的执行主任，也是一位居住在明尼阿波利斯的前伊玛目。
He's the executive director of the Islamic Association of North America and a former imam who lives in Minneapolis.
我们在那里联系到了他。
We reached him there.
优素福，我想知道你的邻居、索马里裔美国人同胞们现在告诉你他们的感受如何。
Youssef, I I wonder what what your neighbors, fellow Somali Americans, are telling you right now about how they're feeling.
好的。
Okay.
他们告诉我们，他们感到恐惧、害怕，觉得自己正遭受歧视，被单独挑出、针对和 profiling。
They they're telling us that if they they're fearful, they're scared, they feel that they are being discriminated against, that they are being singled out, targeted, and profiled.
当我们谈到明尼阿波利斯的索马里裔美国人社区及其经营的生意时，这种影响在街头具体表现为什么？
What does the impact of that look like on the streets of Minneapolis right now when we talk about the the Somali American community and the businesses they own?
影响是几乎每个索马里人都必须随身携带政府签发的身份证件，无论是护照、绿卡，还是其他任何移民身份证明。
The impact is almost every Somali has to have a government issued ID, whether it's passport or a green card, whatever immigration identification that they have.
人们都在避开ICE的聚集点，外出的频率也减少了。
People are avoiding the gatherings of ICE, and people are going less out.
许多商铺在经济上受到了沉重打击，影响了整个社区。
And many shops, economically, it is this thing hit hard the community.
许多商店已经关门，还有一些正濒临倒闭。
Many stores were closed, and some of them are, you know, on the verge of being closed.
还有一点是心理影响，我认为，特别是那些经历过索马里内战的长者，现在看到街上全副武装的人员，这让他们重新唤起了创伤感和痛苦记忆。
And another thing is psychological effect, I believe, because elders specifically who were who have witnessed the Somali civil war are seeing now men with guns on the streets, and that is bringing trauma back to their, you know, feelings and their lives.
你已经在美国内地生活了。
You've been in The United States.
你是美国公民。
You're a US citizen.
你在那里已经二十五年了。
You've been there for twenty five years.
对你个人来说，从初来乍到到2026年的今天，目睹并感受这一切是怎样的体验？
What has it been like for you personally to see, you know, to feel what you felt when arrived to where you are in 2026?
除了在机场，我从未被要求出示身份证，这真的令人难以置信，我感到非常困惑。
I was never asked my ID unless I am at the airport, so it is really something mind boggling, and and I'm baffled.
我们似乎正变得更像一个警察国家，人们因为外貌、口音、文化或国家背景的嫌疑而被盘问身份。
We're kinda like becoming a more of a police state where people are being and asked about their identity based on suspicion of how they look like, and their accent, and their the origin of their culture or country or background.
我从未想过会目睹这样的事情。
I never thought I would be witnessing such a thing.
你还听到国土安全部部长谈论美国和美国优先。
And you're also hearing the secretary of homeland security, you know, talking about America and Americans first.
你是美国人。
You are an American.
她和那些支持她及政府的人暗示，任何看起来像你或可能是索马里人的人，面对这种言论，你该怎么办？
She and those who support her and the administration is suggesting that anyone who might look like you or might be Somali is What do you do with that kind of language?
这种言论非常危险。
That kind of language is very dangerous.
这种言论极具压迫性，因为在他们的观念或认知中，我那些在美国出生的孩子们不算美国人，因为在他们看来，美国不是关于成为这个国家的公民，而是关于一个他们不喜欢的群体。
It is very repressive because in their books or their mind, how they understand things is that my kids who were born here in The United States are not Americans, because for them, America is not about being citizens of this nation, but being a community that is not liked by them.
你对你的孩子们怎么说？
What do you say to your children?
我告诉他们，他们是美国人。
I tell them they're Americans.
他们和其他人一样拥有权利，我告诉他们他们没有不同，但正是当前政府试图灌输给我们的孩子的观念。
They have the right of like everyone else, that I tell them that they're not different, but that is what the current administration is trying to instill in our children.
我们此刻联系到你，是因为美国当局已确定了终止保护措施的日期，而这项保护原本防止目前一些在美索马里人被遣返。
We're reaching you, of course, as US authorities set the date that will end the protections that prevented some Somalis in The United States right now from being deported.
国土安全部部长表示，由于索马里的情况已经改善，这种保护已不再必要。
The Homeland Security Secretary says that that's not necessary anymore because conditions in Somalia have improved.
你对这种说法有何回应？
What do you say to that assertion?
博士。
Doctor.
首先，这不是真的。
Number one, it's not true.
索马里的安全状况并不稳定到足以让人被遣返。
It's not true that the security of Somalia is stable enough for people to be sent to.
青年党仍然控制并管理着该国的大片地区。
The al Shabaab group is still ruling and running vast areas of the country.
政府并未控制国家的每一个地方。
The government is not in every place of the country.
这非常危险。
It's very dangerous.
对于那些被遣返的人来说并不安全。
It's not safe for those people who are being returned.
此外，许多拥有临时保护身份的人已经在这里生活了很长很长时间，可能有二十多年了。
Plus, many people who had that status, the temporary protection status, were here for a long, long time, maybe twenty plus years.
他们在这里有孩子，在这里有工作。
They have children here, They have job here.
他们在这里有生活。
They have a life here.
因此，将他们带走并送回一个他们不安全的地方是非常残忍的，实际上，这不符合美国精神。
So to be taken out and sent back to an area that they're not safe is very cruel, and actually, it's un American.
当你面对来自政府及其支持者的这一切时，你所在城市的ICE（移民和海关执法局）——正如我们一直在报道的那样——你的许多非索马里裔邻居也在关注ICE抗议或ICE的存在，他们通过抗议表达不满，当我们与他们交谈时，他们告诉我们，他们对明尼阿波利斯全市包括索马里裔美国人在内的人们所遭遇的事情感到愤怒。
As you face all of that from the administration and its supporters, ICE in your city, as well as we've been reporting, many of your neighbors, non Somalis, are observing the ICE protest or the ICE presence, you know, protesting, telling us when we speak with them that they're upset about what is happening to others, you know, across Minneapolis, including Somali Americans.
那种支持在此时是否能稍微缓解你和你的社区的恐惧呢？
Does that kind of support do anything to calm your fears, your community's fears, this point?
是的，是的。
Yes, yes.
这是一个非常好的写照，因为对明尼苏达州索马里人的攻击就是对所有美国社区的攻击。
That's a very good picture, because an attack the Somalis in Minnesota is an attack on all American communities.
所以攻击所有明尼苏达州人意味着所有明尼苏达州人都需要团结起来。
So attacking all Minnesotans means that all Minnesotans need to come together.
我们非常感激邻居们给予的帮助和这种我们身处同一境地的感受。
And we really appreciate the help and the feeling of our neighbors that we are in the same place.
发生在我们身上的事，也会发生在所有人身上。
Whatever happens to us, happens to all of us.
这一点的证据就是丽娜·古德，她被一名移民与海关执法局官员开枪击中，而她并不是索马里人。
And the evidence of that is Renee Good, who was shot by an ICE officer, and is not is not Somali.
她是一位白人美国人，却在为移民社区发声时不幸遇难。
She's a white American, yet she died, you know, showing up for the immigrant community.
因此，这让我们在明尼苏达州形成了一个更大的共同体，这一点在这些社区的每一次行动中都清晰可见——无论是抗议、集会，还是分享食物、一起吃饭、互相支持。
So that makes us one larger community in the state of Minnesota, and that is very clear and apparent in every move that, you know, these communities take, whether it is protesting or rallying or, you know, sharing some busa and eating together and coming out supporting each other.
所以，我们希望最终占上风的将是爱、社区的支持与团结，因为政府正试图将我们划分为索马里人、非索马里人、移民、非移民、美国人和其他人。
So hopefully, that is what will will prevail, the love, the support of the community, and the unity of the community, because the government is is trying to divide us into Somalis, non Somalis, immigrants, non immigrants, Americans, and others.
我们都是美国人，我们都属于这里，我们不会离开，这真的非常有希望。
We're all Americans, and we all belong to here, and we're not going anywhere, and that is really very promising.
此外，我们的官员，无论是市级还是州级官员，也在支持社区。
Also, our officials, whether they are city officials, state officials, are also supporting the community.
优素福，我非常感谢你。
Youssef, I appreciate this.
谢谢你的宝贵时间。
Thank you for your time.
非常感谢你，祝你今天愉快。
Thank you so much, and have a good day.
优素福·阿卜杜拉是北美伊斯兰协会的执行主任。
Youssef Abdullah is the executive director of the Islamic Association of North America.
他住在明尼阿波利斯。
He's in Minneapolis.
您正在收听《事态发展》播客。
You've been listening to the As It Happens podcast.
我们的节目每周一至周五在加拿大广播公司第一电台《今日世界之后》播出。
Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio one after Your World Tonight.
当然，您也可以通过访问 CBC 官网的 aih 页面，或使用 CBC Listen 应用程序，以及您常用的任何播客平台收听我们的节目。
And you can, of course, also listen to our show online at CBC dot c a slash a I h or on the CBC Listen app or, of course, wherever you get your podcasts.
我是尼特·科斯卡尔。
I'm Neet Koksal.
我是克里斯·霍登。
And I'm Chris Howden.
如需收听更多 CBC 播客，请访问 cbc.capodcasts。
For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.capodcasts.
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