随着安德鲁的被捕，反君主主义者看到了机会

没过多久，警方就锁定了一个嫌疑人，但他一直躲着他们。

And before too long, police zeroed in on a suspect, but he kept dodging them.

于是他们没有采取便衣行动，而是搞了一场盛装行动。

So instead of a plainclothes operation, they conducted a fancy clothes operation.

他们知道他会在农历新年庆祝活动期间去某个寺庙。

They knew he was going to be at a particular temple during a celebration of the Lunar New Year.

于是他们也去了那里，跳得就像没人看着一样——至少像他没在看一样，而他确实没注意到，因为他们打扮成了舞狮者。

So they went there too, and they danced like no one was watching or at least like he wasn't watching, which he wasn't because they were dressed as lion dancers.

你可以想象舞狮中的狮子是什么样子。

You can picture the lion from a lion dance.

这是一种高度风格化的传统双人服装，前面的人操控着一个大型精致的狮头和嘴巴，后面的人则扮演狮子骄傲的臀部。

It's a heavily stylized traditional two person costume where someone is in the front operating a big elaborate head in the mouth, and someone's in back being the lion's proud rump.

它们是农历新年活动中的常见元素。

They're staples of Lunar New Year events.

因此，嫌疑人根本没注意到这只特别的狮子，直到事情发生。

So the suspect did not register this particular lion at all until this happened.

这是来自狮子服装内部的视频，其中一名警察说：狮子头还看不到目标。

That was video from inside the lion costume in which one officer was saying, lion head can't see the target yet.

然后还有外部拍摄的视频，显示狮子的前半部分突然扑向嫌疑人并将其逮捕。

And then there's video from outside when the front half of the lion suddenly leaped on the suspect and arrested him.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是出色的警方行动，你也不能怪嫌疑人。

That's some nice police work, and you can't blame the suspect.

他根本不知道警方在埋伏等着他。

He had no idea they were lying in wait.

我们现在要短暂休息一下。

We are going to take a short break now.

回来后，我们谈谈最近几个月在温尼伯急诊室因长时间等待而死亡的四个人。

When we return, four people have died after long waits in Winnipeg emergency rooms just in the last few months.

我们将询问省卫生部长，他们的政府正在采取什么措施确保此类事件不再发生。

We'll ask the province's health minister what their government is doing to make sure it doesn't happen again.

在完全误解的情况下，我们将聆听你们的故事，讲述语言障碍如何导致尴尬的沟通失误，进而引出令人愉快的趣闻。

And completely lost in translation, we'll hear your stories of how language barriers have led to awkward miscommunications and then led to delightful anecdotes.

我们希望如此。

We hope.

敬请期待。

Stay tuned.

我是克里斯·霍顿。

I'm Chris Houghton.

我是尼尔·科赫萨尔。

And I'm Neil Kochsall.

你有没有那种感觉，当你看完一部精彩的真罪剧集时？

You know that feeling when you reach the end of a really good true crime series?

你希望了解更多。

You want to know more.

关于涉案人员、案件的最新进展，以及幕后的实际情况。

More about the people involved, where the case is now and what it's like behind the scenes.

我懂这种感觉。

I get that.

我是凯瑟琳·戈德哈，我的播客《犯罪故事》中，我会与顶尖的真罪故事讲述者对话，深入探讨那些我们始终无法放下的案件。

I'm Kathleen Goldhar, and on my podcast Crime Story, I speak with the leading storytellers of true crime to dig deeper into the cases we all just can't stop thinking about.

你可以在任何获取播客的平台收听《犯罪故事》。

Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts.

最近几个月，有四位曼尼托巴省居民在省级急诊室长时间等待后去世，情况令人震惊，他们的家人要求查明真相并追究责任。

In recent months, four Manitobans have died after long waits in provincial emergency rooms under circumstances that have left their families demanding answers and accountability.

省政府表示，正在进行重大事件调查，以查明六个月大的卢卡·唐、68岁的朱迪·伯恩斯和82岁的热纳维耶芙·普赖斯的死因。

The province says critical incident investigations are looking into the deaths of six month old Luca Tang, 68 year old Judy Burns, and 82 year old Genevieve Price.

昨天在节目中，我们听到了雪莉·罗斯的讲述，她的妹妹斯塔西·罗斯上个月因在急诊室长时间等待而去世，此事也正在接受重大事件审查。

Yesterday on the show, we heard from Sherry Ross, whose sister Stacy Ross died last month after a long ER wait, which is also the subject of a critical incident review.

昨天的节目中，雪莉·罗斯向尼尔讲述了她心中萦绕的种种疑问。

Here's some of what Sherry Ross told Neil on last night's program about the questions swirling in her mind.

凌晨4点22分，他们就知道她的肌钙蛋白水平不正常。

At 04:22, they knew her troponin levels were not were not good.

她的肌钙蛋白水平升高了。

They were elevated.

如果当时给她安排了床位，她很可能就能活下来。

And had she been given a bed at that time, she likely would have survived.

他们说在凌晨4点22分就知道了，但尽管如此，我们还是没能把她安排到治疗区域，这就是问题所在。

They said they knew at 04:22, but despite that, we couldn't get her into a treatment space, and that's the problem.

我不明白为什么他们不能把她安置到某个地方。

And I I don't understand why they couldn't put her somewhere.

我在后面，看到他们其实可以让她坐在椅子上。

I was in the back, and I saw what like, they they could have put her in a chair.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们本可以把她放在担架上。

They could have put her on a stretcher.

他们本可以把她安置在其他地方，但他们说连硝酸甘油都不能在等候区使用，而她在救护车上接受了硝酸甘油，效果非常好。

There's places they could have put her to they they're they said that they can't even give Nitro in the waiting room, and she was given Nitro in the ambulance, and it really helped her.

所以如果他们不能在候诊室给硝酸甘油，为什么不把病人送到后面可以给硝酸甘油的地方呢？

So if they can't give nitro in the waiting room, why don't they put them in the back where they can give nitro?

因为那样可能救了她。

Because that might have helped her.

有太多可能的事情本可以做，有太多假设了。

There's so many things that there's so many what ifs that that could have been done.

乌佐马·阿萨盖拉是曼尼托巴省的副省长兼卫生、老年人和长期护理部长。

Uzoma Asaguera is Manitoba's deputy premier and minister of health, seniors, and long term care.

我们在温尼伯联系到了他。

We reached them in Winnipeg.

罗斯部长谈到了她和家人现在不得不面对的种种假设。

Minister Sherry Ross talking about all of the what ifs that she and her family are are now left with.

我们的听众也听说过其他案例。

Our listeners have heard about the other cases as well.

因此，罗斯一家并不是唯一遭遇这种情况的家庭。

So the Ross family is not alone in this.

省政府正在采取什么措施来回应这些家庭的所有疑问？

What is the province doing to answer all of the questions these families have?

首先，我想再次向罗斯一家表达最深切的哀悼。

Well, first, I I I'd start by offering, again, my deepest condolences to the Ross family.

我有机会去谢丽的家中，与她的家人坐在一起，倾听他们的关切。

And, you know, I've had the opportunity to sit in Sherry's home with her family to hear their concerns.

我很快还会再次与他们会面，但每一个问题都必须得到彻底的回答。

And I'm going to be meeting again with them shortly, actually, but every single question has to be answered in full.

我的首要任务是确保这个家庭不仅完全清楚发生了什么，还能参与建议的制定过程，以便我们能采取措施，防止类似事件再次发生在其他家庭身上。

My priority is making sure that this family not only has full clarity on what happened, but that also they are a part of how recommendations are developed so that we can take steps to prevent this from happening to another family in the future.

即使他们感激这次面对面的交流以及即将到来的会面，以及您所说和承诺的内容，但正如您所知，谢丽·罗斯显然仍处于震惊之中，但她仍在抗争。

Even if they appreciate that personal audience and the one to come and what what you're saying and promising, Sherry Ross is also as you know, she she can see she's understandably very much still in shock, but they are fighting.

她对您所提出的流程持怀疑态度。

And she's skeptical about the process that that you've you've laid out.

我们来听一听她告诉我们的一些更多内容。

We'll listen to a little bit more of what she told us.

我不确定。

I'm not necessarily sure.

我相信这件事将会被公开。

I believe that this is gonna make be made public.

这听起来可能有点傻，但我最近几年在互联网上查阅过圣博尼法斯医院的危机事件审查报告，答案总是千篇一律。

This might sound silly, but I've I've looked on the Internet at critical incident reviews done at Saint Boniface Hospital in the last several years, and it's the same answer over and over again.

就是说发生了什么，然后就结束了。

It's just this is what happened and and that's it.

没有任何关于如何避免此类事件再次发生的未来建议。

There's no future recommendations as to how this can be avoided.

部长先生，考虑到这些担忧和怀疑，您今天晚些时候再次会见罗斯一家时，会向他们传达什么信息？

What will your message be, minister, to the Ross family when you meet again later today given those concerns and that skepticism?

重要的是要知道，我已经明确指示确保关键发现和建议将对外公开。

It's important to know that I have given very clear direction to make sure that the key findings and recommendations will be made public.

我们能做到。

We can do that.

这项立法允许我们这样做。

The legislation allows for us to do that.

对于制定的建议，确保公众以及整个系统都能了解这些建议，并知道这些建议正在得到全面实施和落实，这是非常重要的。

And recommendations that are developed, there is a a value in making sure that the public but, of course, the system as a whole has those recommendations and that they know that those recommendations are being fully implemented and held.

她说，她真正想要的是一个全省范围的全面公开调查，而不仅仅是这家医院。

She said what she really wants is is a a full blown public inquiry province wide, not just this hospital.

你会承诺这样做吗？

Is that something you you will commit to?

在我与她的交谈中，我清楚地听到她表达，他们希望引入外部专家，这正是我们已经采取的另一项措施，我也为此下达了指示。

In my conversations with her, I've I've heard her express very clearly that they want an external expert involved and that's another step we have taken and I've given direction around.

我们聘请了一位省外的外部专家，参与此次重大事件的审查与调查。

We have an out of province external expert who will be participating in the critical incident review and investigation.

我们还进一步采取了一项措施，聘请了一位外部专家，目前正在对温尼伯一家急诊科的事件进行审查与分析。

We've also actually taken an additional step to have an external expert who is currently doing an a review and analysis of an incident at an emergency department in Winnipeg.

我非常感谢他们提出的每一项关切和建议。

And I appreciate every concern and recommendation they're bringing forward.

但您可以想象，部长，那些最近失去亲人的家庭，甚至那些尚未经历这种痛苦的家庭，还有正在收听的听众，都会觉得这一切都很好。

But you can imagine, minister, what all of the families of those who've lost loved ones recently, and even those who have not had that experience, our listeners listening right now saying, all of that is great.

应该进行一次审查。

There should be a review.

但为什么这些急诊室里这样的事情会一再发生？

But how is it that this keeps happening in these emergency rooms?

这项立法是否允许您在任何审查之前发布指令，以应对当前正在发生的情况，从而避免有人因等待时间过长或他们的关切未被倾听而丧生？

Does the legislation allow you to issue directives before any review to try to address what is happening in this moment so someone else doesn't die because they waited too long or their their concerns were not heard?

我可以告诉您，我们目前正在考虑增加急诊科的容量。

I can tell you that we're also right now looking at adding more capacity in our emergency department.

无论是增加急诊科的医生，以便能够评估急诊室的患者，还是配备社会工作者，这些都在考虑之中。

So whether that's more physicians in our emergency departments to be able to go and assess patients in our ERs, social workers who are in those environments as well.

重大事件调查与审查是我们将要学习的关键部分，同时我们已经启动的另一项审查也是如此。

The critical incident investigation and review is a key part of what we're going to learn, as well as this other review that we've actioned.

这些家庭何时能获得答案？

What's the timeline to get answers for these families?

我们会确保在每一步都尽可能让家属跟上重大事件调查的进度。

We're gonna make sure that as as much as we can, every step of the way, the family is being kept at the speed of the critical incident investigation.

他们知道这可能需要长达九十天，但他们将参与制定建议的过程。

They're aware it can take up to about ninety days, but they will be a part of, you know, developing recommendations.

对于今天可能需要前往急诊室的人，无论是因为严重问题，还是因为不确定状况是否恶化，您会怎么说？

What would you say to folks today who might have to go to an ER, maybe with something serious, or maybe something they're trying to figure out, and it develops into something more serious?

因为谢丽·罗斯告诉我们，她妹妹一次又一次地为自己发声，但一次又一次地被忽视。

Because Sherry Ross told us her sister advocated for herself over and over and over again, and was not listened to, obviously, over and over and over again.

考虑到医院目前的状况，您对前往急诊室的患者有什么建议，以帮助他们保护自己？

Keeping in mind the situation that hospitals are in, what is your advice to patients showing up at emergency rooms to make sure they can protect themselves?

有紧急医疗需求的人应该前往急诊室。

People who have emergency health care concerns should go to ERs.

我们还开设了延长营业时间的诊所和初级保健诊所，您可以前往就诊。

We also have clinics that we've opened extended hours, primary care clinics that you can go to.

您也可以直接上门就诊。

You can also just walk in.

在圣约翰有一家。

There's one at St.

而且可以享受额外福利，直接由医生或护士执业者接诊。

Bonuses, actually, and be seen by a doctor or a nurse practitioner.

部长，最后我们最近在节目中也谈到了您省目前麻疹病例的增加。

And Minister, just finally, we've also been talking on our show recently about the uptick in measles cases in your province right now.

医生。

Doctor.

米歇尔·德萨莱特上周做客我们的节目时告诉我们，她担心这一病例增加可能带来的更广泛影响。

Michelle Desalette was on our show last week and told us she worries about the broader implications that that that uptick in cases could have.

我们来听一下她说的一些话。

We'll listen to a bit of what she said.

当有人带着麻疹来我们机构时，我们必须遵循一系列规定，以尽量减少对其他人的接触，而这实际上会占用医院大量空间，可能导致一些病房数小时内无法用于其他患者。

When someone comes into our facility with measles, there are rules that we have to follow in terms of trying to reduce exposure to other people, and it actually takes up a lot of space in the hospital, and it might mean that we have rooms that are not available for other patients for several hours.

在医疗系统已经严重承压的背景下，这又给现状增添了一重负担。

In the context of a health care system that's already heavily strained, it's one more thing to add to picture.

部长，您对像德西莱医生这样担心麻疹传播会进一步加剧本已岌岌可危的医院急诊服务能力的医生们有什么要说的吗？

And what's your message, minister, to physicians like doctor Desilai who are worried that the spread of measles could could further compromise an already very compromised situation, the ability of these hospitals to provide emergency care?

我们正在与公共卫生部门紧密合作，确保人们在社区中接种疫苗。

We're working really hard with public health to make sure we're getting people vaccinated in their communities.

我们正把疫苗送到他们身边。

We're bringing the vaccines to them.

医生。

Doctor.

德西莱和其他医生提出了一个非常合理的担忧，让人们理解麻疹的严重性至关重要，他们不仅要保护自己，还要意识到自己有责任保护家人和社区中的其他人。

Desilets and other physicians are raising a very valid concern, and it's so important that people understand the seriousness of measles and that they, they protect not only themselves, but understand that they have a responsibility to protect, their loved ones in our communities.

当然，我们的急诊科和医院也是如此。

And, yes, of course, our emergency departments and hospitals too.

部长，感谢您抽出时间。

Minister, I thank you for your time.

请保重。

Please take care.

你也是。

You too.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

乌佐马·阿萨盖拉是曼尼托巴省副省长兼卫生部长。

Uzoma Asaguera is Manitoba's deputy premier and minister of health.

我们在温尼伯联系到了他们。

We reached them in Winnipeg.

当美国总统唐纳德·特朗普的和平委员会今天首次召开会议，讨论加沙的未来时，关于其近期历史的一份新而可怕的统计出现了。

As US president Donald Trump's board of peace met for the first time today to discuss Gaza's future, a new and terrible accounting of its recent past emerged.

根据昨天发表在《柳叶刀全球健康》期刊上的一项同行评审研究，自10月7日以来的前16个月中，以色列的袭击导致加沙地带总人口的3%至4%死亡。

According to a peer reviewed study published yesterday in the Lancet Global Health Journal, Israeli attacks killed between three and four percent of the territory's entire population in the first sixteen months after October 7.

这相当于超过七万五千名巴勒斯坦人死亡，比加沙哈马斯卫生部当时报告的官方死亡人数多出约两万五千人。

That translates to more than seventy five thousand individual Palestinian deaths, which exceeds the official death toll reported by Gaza's Hamasran health ministry at the time by some 25,000 people.

该研究的作者表示，这一发现证实了战争期间经常受到质疑的数字的合理性。

The study's authors say the finding underscores the validity of numbers that have routinely been called into question during the war.

迈克尔·斯帕格特是伦敦皇家霍洛威大学的经济学教授，也是非政府组织‘每一起伤亡都应被记录’的主席。

Michael Spaget is a professor of economics at Royal Holloway University of London and the chair of the NGO Every Casualty Counts.

他是这项新研究的合著者之一。

He's one of the coauthors of the new study.

我们在英国沃金联系到了他。

We reached him in Woking, England.

教授，这项工作、这项研究是基于在加沙实地调查的结果。

Professor, this work, this study is the result of an on the ground survey in in Gaza.

您的团队是如何得出这些结论的？

How did your team arrive at these findings?

嗯，它的思路类似于一项民意调查。

Well, it's similar in idea to a public opinion survey.

因此，我们随机选取了一批家庭，然后对每个家庭的代表进行访谈。

So we select a random sample of households, and then we conduct interviews with representatives from each one.

他们提供了一份在2023年10月6日当天家中所有成员的名单，并说明了每个人的下落，包括他们是生还还是已故。

They give a roster of all the people who are present in their household on 10/06/2023, and then an account of the fate of each one, including whether that person is alive or dead.

基本思路是，如果样本中有x%的人在战争中死亡，那么我们就估算整个加沙地带的人口中也有x%的人死亡。

And the basic idea is that if x percent of the sample have died in the war, then we estimate that that same x percent of the whole population of the Gaza Strip has died.

你们从两千户家庭、近一万名家庭成员那里收集了数据。

Two thousand households with nearly 10,000 members of of those households is what you captured data from.

是的。

Correct.

你们得出的数字超过了官方统计的死亡人数。

You arrived at a number that exceeds the death officials.

这个数字让你感到惊讶吗？

Did that number surprise you?

是的。

Yeah.

确实让我感到惊讶。

It did surprise me.

你知道，我原本预期这个数字会远高于加沙卫生部的官方数据，但这个结果比我还预期的略高一些。

I, you know, I was expecting a number that would be substantially substantially higher than the official Gaza Ministry of Health figure, but this one came out a little bit higher than what I was expecting.

以色列媒体报道称，以色列官员最近承认，加沙卫生部报告的数字基本准确。

Israeli media reports say that Israeli officials recently acknowledged that the figures being reported by Gaza's health ministry were largely accurate.

但正如你和我们的听众所知，以色列长期以来一直质疑这些数字，称其为‘哈马斯的宣传’。

But as you and our listeners will know, Israel disputed those numbers and dismissed them for for a long time as, quote, Hamas propaganda.

你认为这项研究现在可能会产生什么影响？

What kind of impact do you think this research now might have?

事实上，这项研究最初的动机正是针对加沙卫生部所受到的种种怀疑。

Well, the original motivation for it, in fact, was all of the skepticism that was directed at the Gaza Ministry of Health.

因此，我们开展这项调查的初衷就是完全独立于卫生部的数据。

So the whole idea behind our survey was to do something that was completely independent of Ministry of Health data.

然后，我们可以判断这些信息的可信度。

And then, you know, we could make a call on how credible that information was.

我们发现，这些数据确实是可信的，尽管存在低估。

And, you know, we found that it it was, in fact, credible, albeit an undercount.

我们还发现，卫生部公布的性别和年龄结构数据——即女性、儿童和老年人的比例——也是可信的，我们估算的比例约为56%，与官方数据非常接近。

We also found that the demographics put out by the Ministry of Health, that is the percentages of women, children, and elderly, were also credible that our estimate for that percentage, around 56%, was very close to what the official figures were.

正如你所知，另一个有争议的点是，在死亡人数中被列为战斗人员的数量，这一问题一直存在且持续至今。

Another point of contention, as you well know, has and continues to be the number of combatants, listed, among the dead or included in in the dead.

你们的研究在这一方面得出了什么结论？

What did your research determine on that front?

我们没有对战斗人员与平民进行直接统计。

So we have no direct measurement of combatants versus civilians.

在我们的调查中，我们没有询问受访者家庭成员是否为战斗人员。

In in our survey, we don't ask people to report whether household members were combatants or not.

因为这类敏感信息，他们可能不愿意提供。

Because that that sensitive information, they might not wanna give that kind of information.

他们可能不会提供准确的信息。

They might not give accurate information.

所以我们没有问这个问题。

So we we we didn't ask.

不过，我们可以尝试根据实际记录的死亡人员的年龄和性别分布，推算出战斗人员的粗略比例。

What we can do though is try to infer rough percentages of combatants from the age and sex distribution of the the deaths that that that we actually record.

基于这一点，我认为至少有百分之八十的死者是平民，很可能接近百分之九十。

Based on that, I I would say that at least eighty percent of the people killed are civilians and probably, it's it's it's closer to to ninety percent.

你的研究还考察了同一时期非暴力死亡的额外数量。

Your your study also looked into the number of excess nonviolent deaths during the same time period.

在这方面，你们发现了什么？

What did you find on that front?

我们发现，有大量额外的死亡，指的是战争未发生时本不应发生的死亡人数。

So we found a substantial number of excess in the sense of deaths above and beyond what would have been predicted to happen if there hadn't been a war.

这一额外非暴力死亡人数的中心估计值约为八千人。

The the central estimate for that is around eight thousand of of these excess nonviolent deaths.

这是一场巨大的伤亡，尽管远低于我们对暴力死亡的估计，也低于许多人的预期。

That is a lot of death, albeit much smaller than our estimate for violent deaths and lower than what a lot of people seem to have expected.

我认为这向我们揭示了战争爆发前以及战争期间向加沙投入的大量援助。

I I think that that is telling us something about all of the aid that was poured into Gaza before the war started and to a lesser extent during the war as well.

你知道，我认为国际社会为帮助加沙投入了大量资源，我认为这有助于控制战争期间的死亡人数——如果没有这些努力，死亡人数本可能高得多。

You know, I think the international community committed a lot to try to help Gaza and I think that that helped to contain the amount of death during the war, which which I think could have been much higher if that effort hadn't been made in the first place.

你的同事，也就是那些实地进行这项研究的采访者，他们住在加沙。

Your colleagues, the interviewers, you know, conducting these this research on the grounds live in Gaza.

你觉得他们进行这些采访、开展这项工作时感受如何？

What is your sense of what it was like for them to to carry out those interviews and and do this work?

嗯，我觉得这会有不同的方面。

Well, you know, I think it it would, you know, cut different ways.

我认为，他们很可能觉得这份工作很有意义，因为他们在记录自己亲身经历以及周围人所经历的一切。

I, you know, I I think that, they probably found it satisfying to be doing this work to be documenting what they've lived and and what they've experienced and what the people around them have experienced.

但同时，我认为要直面这些报告会非常困难。

At the same time, I think it'd be very difficult to kind of face up to all of these reports.

我确信，许多采访都进行得非常艰难且具有挑战性。

I'm sure that many of the interviews were very difficult and and challenging to conduct.

在约两百万人口的地区，有七万五千条生命逝去。

75,000 lives in an area with a population of about 2,000,000 people.

现在我们从卫生部门了解到，自十月停火生效以来，加沙已有五百七十多人丧生。

And now we're hearing from health authorities that more than five hundred and seventy people in Gaza have been killed since the ceasefire came into effect in October.

根据你们的研究结果，你们如何处理这些最新信息和这个数字？

Given what your research is showing, what do you do with with that information, this latest information and that number?

令人失望的是，在停火期间，仍有如此多的人遭到暴力杀害。

Well, it's disappointing that during a ceasefire, there continued to be so many people violently killed.

而且，你知道，这真的只是令人失望，我很难再称其为停火。

And, you know, it really, you know, just just disappointing, and I and I struggle to refer to it as a ceasefire.

教授，感谢您抽出时间。

Professor, I appreciate your time.

谢谢您提供这些信息。

Thank you for this.

非常感谢您邀请我。

Thank you very much for having me.

保重。

Take care.

谢谢大家。

Thank you, everyone.

是的。

Yes.

谢谢。

Thank you.

再见。

Bye.

迈克尔·斯帕吉特是非政府组织‘每一起伤亡都计数’的主席，也是发表在《柳叶刀全球健康》期刊上关于加沙死亡人数的新同行评审研究的合著者。

Michael Spaget is the chair of the NGO Every Casualty Counts and a coauthor of new peer reviewed research on the death toll in Gaza published in The Lancet Global Health Journal.

我们在英国沃金联系到了他。

We reached him in Woking, England.

重要的是言出必行，但坦白说，如果你所说的话并不符合你本意，那也无济于事。

It's important to mean what you say, but admittedly, that won't help if what you're saying doesn't mean what you think it means.

昨天的节目中，当我们听到一些双语魁北克人的困境时，这一点就非常清楚了。

That was clear on yesterday's program when we heard about the struggles of some multilingual Quebecers.

他们中的大多数人用母语思考，然后试图用另一种语言表达，这可能很困难、危险，或者令人捧腹。

Most of them were thinking in their native language and then trying to speak another, which could be rough or dangerous and or hilarious.

当我们请你们分享自己的语言失误时，你们没有让我们失望。

And when we asked you to share your own language accidents, you didn't disappoint.

渥太华的简·斯莱写道：作为一名生活在蒙特利尔的英语使用者，当魁北克人党上台时，我努力在公共场合说法语。

Jane Sly of Ottawa wrote, as an Anglophone living in Montreal when the Partis Quebecois came to power, I strove to speak in French whenever I was out in public.

1987年，我生下了我的第一个孩子。

In 1987, I gave birth to my first child.

我走进附近一家商店，想为儿子买一辆可折叠的婴儿车。

I went into a nearby store in search of a folding stroller for my son.

我问店员他们有没有‘thinking’，以为这个词可能是‘婴儿车’的合理翻译。

I asked the clerk if they had any thinking that might be a reasonable translation of the word stroller.

店员告诉我他们有很多，我可以自取。

I was told that they had lots, and I could help myself.

我不明白为什么店员笑得那么厉害。

I wasn't sure why the clerk was laughing so hard.

他向我解释了原因。

He filled me in.

‘stroller’这个词的意思是。

Is the word for stroller.

意思是灰尘。

Means dust.

我希望你在灰尘落定之后才买到那个婴儿车。

I hope you got that stroller when the poussiere settled.

当然，说到习语，事情就变得非常棘手了。

And, of course, when it comes to idioms, things get really tricky.

这可能很明显，但你不能逐字翻译。

It might be obvious, but you can't just translate word for word.

你好。

Hi.

我叫露丝·霍德勒。

My name is Ruth Hodder.

早在1980年，我刚搬到温尼伯，正和一群朋友打牌，其中一个玩家转向我，出了个谜语。

And, back in 1980, I had just moved to Winnipeg, and I was playing cards with a group of, friends when one of the players turned to me and posed a riddle.

我思考了一会儿答案，然后说：我把舌头给了猫。

I thought about the answer for a while, and then I said, I gave my tongue to the cat.

我知道自己在英语里说了句蠢话，因为大家一脸困惑，沉默不语。

I knew I had said something stupid in English because of the puzzled looks and confused silence.

他说：你不能总是直接从一种语言翻译到另一种语言。

He said, You can't always translate directly from one language to the other.

在这个例子中，意思是逐字翻译。

In this instance, means word for word.

在英语里，我说的是‘我把舌头给了猫’。

I give my tongue to the cat in English.

真正的等价表达是‘我放弃了’，也就是：我不知道你这个愚蠢谜语的答案，所以我认输。

The real equivalent is, however, I give up, as in I don't know the answer to your stupid riddle, so I give up.

把答案告诉我。

Give me the answer.

他们只是困惑地盯着你。

They just stared at you in confused silence.

露丝，难怪你放弃回答了。

Ruth, no wonder you gave your tongue to the cat.

而且有时候，当然，你就是完全不明白发生了什么。

And sometimes, of course, you just have no idea what is going on.

洛林·博多安写信说，她朋友的女儿正在魁北克参加一场法律考试。

Lorraine Baudouin wrote to say that her friend's daughter was taking a law exam in Quebec.

她的母语不是英语。

Her first language is not English.

在笔试中，有一道题是关于‘膝盖撞击’和‘路面坑洞’的责任问题。

In a written test, there was a question about liability regarding a knee to pull, a pothole.

她不明白这个表达，于是写了一段回应，讨论了几个场景，比如‘鸡在马路上干什么？’

She didn't know that expression and wrote a response about a couple of scenarios such as what was the chicken doing on the road?

巢里有蛋吗？还是车受损了？

Were there eggs in the nest, or was there damage to the car?

她不知道这个问题其实是关于撞上坑洞后造成的损害。

Not knowing the question was about damage after hitting a pothole.

我不确定她在考试中得了多少分。

I'm not sure what the mark was on her exam.

我猜教授一定很纳闷这个考生在说什么。

I bet the professor was wondering what this person was talking about.

谢谢洛林，也谢谢所有打电话和写信来的听众。

Thanks, Lorraine, and thanks to everyone who called and wrote in.

如果这些故事让你想起了自己曾经的语言失误，欢迎拨打TalkBack热线（416）205-5687，或发送邮件至aih@cbc.ca。

If those stories reminded you of a language slip up of your own, you can call TalkBack at (416) 205-5687 or email us at aih@cbc.ca.

海拔近4000米的格罗格洛克纳山是奥地利最高的山峰。

At nearly 4,000 meters, the Groes Glockner is Austria's tallest mountain.

而此刻，它正俯视着一起牵动全国的刑事案件。

And right now, it's looming over a criminal court case that has gripped the country.

去年一月中旬，一对名为基尔斯滕·G和托马斯·P的奥地利夫妇开始攀登格罗格洛克纳山。

In mid January last year, an Austrian couple named only as Kirsten g and Thomas p began to ascend to the Grossglockner.

然后，可怕的事情发生了。

Then something terrible happened.

第二天，警察发现了独自一人、因低温症死亡的基尔sten。

And the next day, the police found Kirsten alone, dead of hypothermia.

托马斯声称，她在突然感到疲惫、无法继续前行后，他离开去寻求帮助，但他的说法留下了许多疑问。

Thomas claimed he left to get help after she suddenly became exhausted and unable to go on, but his story left a mountain of questions.

今晚，因斯布鲁克的一名法官裁定他犯有严重过失杀人罪。

And tonight, a judge in Innsbruck found him guilty of gross negligent manslaughter.

塞维林·格拉泽一直在跟进此案。

Severin Glaser has been following the case.

他是因斯布鲁克大学的刑法学教授。

He's a professor of criminal law at the University of Innsbruck.

我们联系上他时，

We reached him in

教授，您对这个判决感到惊讶吗？

Professor, were you surprised by this decision?

因为我通过Leifetiker关注了整个审判过程，所以他对被判有罪我并不太惊讶。

Since I was following the the ongoing trial via Leifetiker, I'm not so much surprised that he has been found guilty.

我对法官在审判过程中提出的问题感到非常惊讶，但经过这么长时间的审理后，这个判决结果本身并没有让我太意外。

I was quite surprised about the questions questions the the the judge made during the trial, but the the verdict itself is not such a big surprise after this long day trial.

为什么这对你来说并不意外？

Why is it not a surprise to you?

你听到了什么，让你觉得法院会做出这样的裁决？

What did you hear that made you think that this was what the court would decide?

法官本人也是一名登山者，他对被告所描述的事件经过存有疑虑。

The judge, that is a hiker himself, he had doubts about the the version, how things were going.

他指出，被告所讲述的故事与他认为当时实际情况应有的样子并不相符。

He stated that the story the defendant is telling is not fitting to to what he thinks, how the situation must have been.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我认为，法官越来越明显地对被告所讲的故事表示怀疑。

So I think that it it became more and more clear that the judge is not convinced by the story the the defendant is telling.

让我们回到大约一年前的那座山顶，看看当时这对夫妇在那里发生了什么。

Let's go back to to that summit from a from about a year ago and what was happening when this couple was there.

当时的情况如何？

What were the conditions at the time?

当时的条件非常恶劣。

The conditions were very hard.

那是冬天。

It was winter.

他们在一月份登上了格罗埃斯克洛纳峰，奥地利最高的山峰。

They ascended the Groesklochner, Austria's highest mountain in January.

午夜时分，气温低至零下八摄氏度，并伴有强风，体感温度相当于零下二十度。

In the middle of the night, it had minus eight degrees Celsius and a strong wind, which feel which felt like minus 20 degrees.

在冬季攀登如此高的山峰，条件极其严酷。

So very harsh conditions to ascend such a high mountain in winter.

被告一直辩称，他离开去寻求帮助，本打算带着救援返回女友身边。

The the defendant, he he's been arguing that he went to get help, and he was going to come back, you know, with help for for his girlfriend.

对于检方指控他犯了本可避免的错误，他还说了什么？

What else did he say in response to to what the prosecution has been saying that that he made mistakes that could have been avoided?

是的

Yeah.

他的论点是，他并不比他的女朋友更有登山经验，他们的阿尔卑斯山教育水平大致相同。

His his argumentation was that he was not more experienced in mountaineering than his girlfriend was, that they had more or less the same level of Alpine education.

所以他并不是更有经验的登山者，这导致了他的论点——每个人都应对自己负责。

So he was not the the more experienced haiker, and this is ending up in an argumentation like everybody is responsible for him or herself.

所以我认为这基本上就是他的论点。

So I would say this was basically his argumentation.

她遭遇的是一场悲剧性的意外。

What happened to her was a tragic accident.

他试图去为她寻求帮助。

He tried to get help to her.

事实上，他最终还是呼叫了救援，但为时已晚。

And, actually, he finally called for help, but much too late.

嗯

Mhmm.

而且检察官不仅说他犯了本可避免的错误。

And the prosecutors not only said he, you he he made avoidable mistakes.

他们指出了九个具体的错误，并在今天的庭审中反复强调了这些点。

They outlined nine specific mistakes, and and they raised that throughout throughout the trial today.

关于检方所强调的内容，有哪些特别引起你注意的地方？

What are some of the things that stood out to you about what the prosecution was highlighting?

那位女性，也就是受害者，装备非常差。

The the woman, the victim, was very poorly equipped.

她穿着软底靴，这种鞋可能适合滑雪板运动。

She was wearing soft boots that might be a good equipment for snowboarding.

她带着一副分体式滑雪板，但鞋子却极其不适合徒步和攀爬。

She had a split board with her, but very bad shoes for for for hiking and for climbing.

第二类错误与他们登山的进程有关。

The second branch of mistakes related to how the tour was going on.

他们的行进速度太慢了。

They were much too slow.

当他们意识到应该继续前进更远时，却没有回头。

They did not turn around when they noticed that they should have proceeded much further.

他们本可以轻易获得帮助，却没有寻求援助。

They did not seek for help when they could have gotten help easily.

当一架直升机接近他们时，他们没有发出任何需要救援的信号。

When a helicopter had approached them, they did not give any signal that they needed to be rescued.

提示。

Cued.

他只给警察打过一次电话，当警察试图回拨时，他却没有接听。

He just called the police once and did not pick up when the police tried to call him back.

他把她独自留在离山顶50米的地方，没有用毯子为她保暖。

He left her alone, 50 meters below the summit, not covering her with a blanket.

这些都是非常严重的错误，最终都反映在了判决结果中。

So these are very severe mistakes, and this all ended up in the verdict.

基尔sten Ji的家人对她们已故女儿的男友所受指控有何回应？

What has Kirsten Ji's family said about the allegations against their their now late daughter's boyfriend?

他们为他辩护。

They defended him.

他们说他不值得接受这样的程序。

They said he would not deserve such such a procedure.

他们没有责怪她的男朋友。

They did not blame her boyfriend.

他们说她自己就是一个有经验的登山者。

They said she was an experienced mountaineer herself.

她并不是盲目地进行登山活动。

She was not doing tours blindly.

她并不是完全依赖他，他们之前已经一起进行过几次登山活动。

She did not just rely on him, but they had gone on several tours before.

他们极力反驳将女儿描绘成一个懵懂无知、不知自己在做什么的无辜女孩的形象。

And they were very much fighting the picture of her daughter as an innocent girl that didn't know what she's doing.

这个案件的核心是照顾责任的概念，即一个人对另一个人所负有的责任。我们不知道这个案件接下来会如何发展，是否会有上诉。

Central to this case was this idea of duty of care, this responsibility that that another person has for another we you don't know what's going to happen with the case from here, whether there'll be an appeal.

这被视为一个可能具有先例意义的案件。

This was seen as a potentially precedent setting case.

你觉得接下来会发生什么？

What do you think might happen next?

登山在你们国家非常流行，当然也发生过死亡事件。

Mountaineering is very popular in your country, certainly, and there have been deaths.

但这个案件相当独特。

But this case is quite unique.

那么接下来可能会发生什么？

So what might happen next?

我希望这个案件不会成为人们一起登山的障碍。

I hope that this case will not be an obstacle for people making mountain tours together.

这个案件真正带来了新的视角，探讨一位登山伙伴对另一位伙伴所遭遇的任何事情应承担多少责任。

This case is is really bringing in a new perspective on how much one mountaineering partner is liable for whatever happens to another mountaineering partner.

登山是自由的体现，我希望它能继续保持为自由的体现。

Mountaineering is an expression of freedom, and I hope it will stay an expression of freedom.

我非常确信会这样，因为登山者愿意在山中冒生命危险，因此他们都是非常有风险意识的人。

And I'm quite sure it will, because mountaineers are willing to risk their lives in the mountains, and so they are very risk aware people.

我认为，因同伴遇难而承担刑事责任的风险，并不会阻止他们一起进行登山活动。

I think that the danger of criminal liability for fatalities happening to their partners will not keep them from going on mountaineering tours together.

不过，考虑到这种自由以及他们对登山的热爱，那些登山的人是否会因此改变自己的想法，以不同的方式互相照顾呢？

Do you think though that keeping in mind that freedom and how much they love mountaineering, the folks that go up, that people will will change what they how they think and take care of each other differently?

他们可能会变得更加谨慎，而谨慎并不是坏事。

They might become more cautious, which is not a bad thing which is not a bad thing to be cautious.

但我希望，他们不会因为这样的判决就完全放弃登山。

But I I hope that they will not refrain from from mountaineering at all because of judgments like this.

教授，感谢您今天的分享。

Professor, thank you for this.

非常感谢您邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

塞维林·格拉泽是因斯布鲁克大学的刑法学教授。

Severin Glaser is a professor of criminal law at the University of Innsbruck.

他在维也纳。

He's in Vienna.

对于全球穆斯林而言，斋月本应以反思、祈祷和与家人共度时光开始。

For Muslims around the world, Ramadan is meant to begin with reflection, prayer, and time spent with family.

但今年本周，在尼日利亚，这个神圣的月份却以哀悼开始。

But in Nigeria this week, the holy month has begun with mourning.

尼日利亚中北部高原州的一座铅锌矿疑似发生一氧化碳泄漏，近四十名矿工死亡，另有二十多人因一氧化碳中毒住院治疗。

Nearly forty minuteers are dead after a suspected carbon monoxide leak inside a lead and zinc mine in Plateau State in North Central Nigeria, and more than twenty people are in hospital being treated for carbon monoxide poisoning.

政府已关闭该矿井，并展开调查。

The government has since shut down the mine and launched an investigation.

阿杜穆萨是高原州的一名自由记者。

Adumusa is a freelance journalist in Plateau State.

他采访了幸存者，他们表示，当时正在地下完成夜班，有毒气体在通风不良的隧道中积聚。

He's been talking to survivors who say they were finishing an overnight shift underground when the toxic gas built up in poorly ventilated tunnels.

我们在尼日利亚乔斯联系到了穆萨先生。

We reached mister Musa in Jos, Nigeria.

阿杜，我知道你一直在和幸存者交谈。

Adu, I know you've been speaking with survivors.

他们跟你讲述了他们经历了什么？

What are they telling you about what they survived?

他们告诉我，这起事件发生在周三早上，正好是早上6点30分，嗯。

They told me that this incident happened in the morning of Wednesday, and it happened exactly 06:30AM Mhmm.

当时一些同事或他们自己正返回矿区继续挖掘矿物。

When some of their colleagues or when they were returning to the mining site to continue their digging for the minerals.

他们发现自己的关节开始变弱，紧接着车子晃动，有些人开始倒下。

They see that it started weakening their their joints and a moment later, the car moved and then some of them started falling.

还没反应过来，隧道里的那些人皮肤就开始灼烧。

And then before you know it, those who are inside the tunnel, their skin started burning.

就连隧道外的人也开始倒下，变得虚弱。

And those who are even outside the tunnel begin to fall down, and then they were weak.

还没反应过来，他们就停止了呼吸。

And then before you know it, and they stopped breathing.

这听起来太可怕了，他们所经历的

That sounds terrifying, what they've

真的很可怕。

told Very terrifying.

那些未能幸存者的家属现在怎么样？

How are the the families of those who did not survive?

他们今天都在说些什么？

What what are they saying today?

是的。

Yeah.

那些未能幸存者的家属告诉我，他们对发生的事情感到极度痛苦。

The families of those who did not survive told me that they are really in pain of what has happened.

他们正在哀悼。

They are mourning.

他们说，这些正在挖掘矿物的人，是家庭经济来源的支柱。

They said that these people who were digging the minerals are people who have been sourcing money for the livelihood of the family.

而且他们中的许多人还在帮助父母。

And a lot of them are helping their parents.

很难想象将来会由谁来照顾他们。

And the defining difficult to imagine who is going to take care of them.

我记得有一个未成年人，他在事件中也失去了叔叔。

I could remember one of the minor who also lost his uncle in the incident.

他说他的叔叔留下了11个孩子。

He said that his uncle left behind 11 children.

他负责照顾孩子们的学业。

He was the one who took care of their school.

他负责照顾他们的饮食和一切生活所需。

He was the one who took care of the of their feeding and everything.

而现在他恢复正常了。

And now he is normal.

所以他很难理解将来会由谁来承担这份责任。

So he find it difficult to understand who is going to shoulder that responsibility.

所以许多遇难者的亲属都处于极大的悲痛之中。

So a lot of those who did not survive, their relatives are really in pain.

他们正在呼吁相关当局，特别是政府，嗯。

They are calling on relevant authorities, particularly the government Mhmm.

来援助他们。

To come to their aid.

他们需要大量的支持。

They need so much support.

他们会得到这种帮助吗？

Will they get that help?

我们知道政府已经关闭了矿井，并展开了调查。

We know the government has shut down the mine, launched investigation.

我稍后会再详细问你这件事。

I'll ask you more about that in a moment.

但就你提到的对遇难者家属的经济支持和帮助而言，有没有任何承诺？

But in terms of that kind of financial support that you're talking about and help for the families of the victims, are there any promises?

是的。

Yes.

有承诺。

There are promises.

昨天，州政府发表了一份声明，对遇难者表示慰问。

Yesterday, the state government has issued a statement sympathizing with victims.

在声明中，信息专员表示，普拉图州政府将承担所有在此次事件中受伤人员的医疗费用。

And in the statement, the the the commissioner for information, she said the Platou State government will take the responsibility of all medical expenses of those who were injured in the incident.

他们还承诺，将尽一切努力帮助那些失去生命的遇难者家属。

And they also promised that they will do all what they could to help the the family of those who lost their lives.

但你知道，在尼日利亚，比如，一旦你遭遇了什么事，政府总会出来做承诺，但有时候人们，尤其是受害者，会抱怨，即使有了承诺，他们也几乎看不到任何实际行动。

But, you know, in Nigeria, for example, whenever something happened to you, government always come out to make promises, but, you know, sometimes people do complain, particularly the victims, that even after the promises, they they hardly see anything.

所以这一次，他们表示希望政府能伸出援手。

So this one, they are saying that they hope that the government will come to their aid.

这就是政府所说的。

So this is what the government is saying.

关于调查以及可能导致这一事件的原因，目前揭示了什么？

In terms of the investigation and what might have caused this to happen, what has been revealed so far?

你知道下面发生了什么吗？

What do you know about what happened down there?

高原州警察指挥部今天发布了一份声明，指出了事件的原因，尽管相关调查仍在进行中。

The Plateau State Police Command today issued a statement identifying the cause of the incident even though the said investigation is ongoing.

但他们还特别指出，这些人是因一氧化碳泄漏而死亡，尽管他们表示，从矿坑中挖掘出的岩石和其他土壤已被收集用于调查。

But they also specifically said that these people, they were killed as a result of the leak of carbon monoxide, even though they said the rock and other soil that is being dug in that mining pit has been collected for investigation.

但在调查之前，他们认为这些人吸入了一种有毒气体，据称这种气体是由于开采矿物时产生的。

But even before the investigation, they believe that these people inhale a poisonous gas which they said that came out as a result of the digging for the minerals.

那么，这家矿场的拥有公司呢？

What about the company that owns this mine?

他们怎么说？

What are they saying?

关于他们的运营，目前了解多少？

What is known about their operations?

是的。

Yeah.

到目前为止，该公司尚未发布任何声明，但联邦政府已下令关闭所有采矿点，特别是该公司的矿区，等待进一步调查。

So far, the company has not issued any statement, but the federal government has directed that all the mining site, particularly of that company, should be shut down pending further investigation.

你之前提到过承诺经常得不到兑现，政府的承诺，你知道，你暗示的，而且我们不幸地知道，这类事件在尼日利亚并不罕见。

What you said before about promises not being kept often, government promises, you know, you're suggesting and and we know that, unfortunately, these kinds of incidents are not uncommon in Nigeria.

这一事件与其他事件相比如何？与其他灾难相比呢？

How does this one compare to others, to other disasters?

你知道，就像昨天发生的这件事，社区居民说，这几乎是前所未有的，因为尽管他们一直经历过类似的事件，但这次的伤亡人数超过了他们一生中经历过的任何一次。

You know, like this one that happened yesterday, the residents of the community are saying that this is almost the first of its kind because even though they have been experiencing similar incidents, but particular one, the casualty figure is more than what they have ever experienced in their lives.

比如在2025年，曾发生过一氧化碳泄漏事件，导致两人死亡。

Maybe in 2025 for example, there was an incident of carbon monoxide leak and two people were killed.

他们说，发生过多次一氧化碳泄漏事件，但很少听说有超过三人死亡的情况。

They say there were several cases of this carbon monoxide leak, but you hardly hear maybe more than three people die.

有时一人死亡，有时两人死亡。

Sometimes one person die, sometimes two person die.

他们说，通常当他们闻到一氧化碳的味道时，就会控制该区域。

And they said they usually control the area, especially when they begin to smell the carbon monoxide.

所以一旦闻到气味，他们通常会启动发电机，为隧道提供通风。

So immediately they smell that, they usually start a generator that often give ventilation into the tunnel.

这就是他们通常控制一氧化碳泄漏的方法。

So that is how they usually control the carbon monoxide leak.

但这次，我们甚至都没有启动发电机，因此伤亡人数比历史上任何一次都高。

But this time around, we have not even even started the generator, and that was why the casualty figure is higher than any other time in history.

因为这一次，他们看到的数字非常庞大。

Because this one, they see the number is huge.

每当我们遭遇这种灾难时，政府总会出来向受害者表示慰问，并承诺调查事故原因。

And anytime we experience this kind of disaster, government will always come out to sympathize with the victims, and then the government will promise to investigate the cause of the incident.

但你几乎听不到后续消息，即使已经成立了一个委员会来调查问题原因。

But you hardly hear anything after maybe a committee is set off to investigate the cause of the problem.

所以，这通常就是尼日利亚面临的问题。

So this is usually the problem we have in Nigeria.

这就是为什么有时受害者或受害者的家属会出来表示，他们对政府的说法缺乏信心，因为这种事情也发生在其他社区的其他人身上。

And that is why sometimes the victims or relatives of the victims will come out to say that they are not confident in what the government is saying because it happens to other people in other community.

这就是尼日利亚政府应对问题的方式。

So this is what is happening with regard to how government respond to issues in Nigeria.

阿杜，很高兴我们能交谈。

Adu, I'm glad we could speak.

谢谢你。

Thank you for this.

不客气。

You're welcome.

感谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

阿杜穆萨是尼日利亚的一名自由记者。

Adumusa is a freelance journalist in Nigeria.

我们今天早些时候在乔斯联系到了他。

We reached him in Jos earlier today.

您正在收听《事态发展》播客。

You've been listening to the As It Happens podcast.

我们的节目每周一至周五在CBC广播一台《今日世界之后》播出。

Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio one after Your World Tonight.

当然，您也可以通过cbc.ca/aih、CBC收听应用，或任何您获取播客的平台收听我们的节目。

And you can, of course, also listen to our show online at cbc.ca/aih or on the CBC Listen app or, of course, wherever you get your podcasts.

我是内思·科查拉。

I'm Neith Kochsala.

我是克里斯·霍登。

And I'm Chris Howden.

如需收听更多CBC播客，请访问cbc.capodcasts。

For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.capodcasts.